TROMBONE-L Digest 1538 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Wow, the joint is jumping! by Douglas Yeo 2) Re: Radical Extremist Snobbism by Feneley 3) Re: the nasty "music thing" thread by Feneley 4) Re: Crown tooth theory by Don Wampler 5) Illegal??? by Wayne Dyess 6) Sauer clinic request by ButteBlack@aol.com 7) RE: This Whole Music Thing by "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> 8) Sauer-ing by Dave Burns 9) Re: Fwd: Re: the nasty "music thing" thread by Mike Coyle 10) Re: Fwd: Wow, the joint is jumping! by Mike Coyle 11) RE: This Whole Music Thing by Mike Coyle 12) RE: This Whole Music Thing by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 13) Online Trombone Journal Classifieds by Chris Waage 14) Thoughts on sponsorship by Dennis Clason 15) Re: Thoughts on sponsorship by Mike Coyle 16) Re: the music thread by Sequoia Middle School 17) Re: the music thread by Dennis Clason 18) Re: the music thread by Mike Coyle 19) Sponsorships by Chris Waage 20) Trombone euphemisms by Mike Coyle 21) RE: Sponsorships by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 22) Re: Trombone euphemisms by Paul Riley 23) Sauer/UMI by Peter Ellefson 24) Re: Emulation (was Re: Evolution) by Wayne Dyess 25) Re: the music thread by Sequoia Middle School 26) Re: the music thread by Mike Coyle 27) [Humor] If (SenseOfHumor < RainFallInSahara) Then Delete by "Richard Human, Jr." 28) Sturgeon's Law, Harris, etc. by Thomas Cox 29) Re: Illegal??? by Sequoia Middle School 30) Musical Taste and Freedom by Chris Waage 31) Re: [Humor] If (SenseOfHumor < RainFallInSahara) Then Delete by Mike Coyle 32) Re: [Humor] If (SenseOfHumor < RainFallInSahara) Then Delete by David Buckley 33) Hollywood Trombones Christmas Music. by David Buckley 34) Re: Sturgeon's Law, Harris, etc. by Mike Coyle 35) A Plea (was [Humor] ...) by Mike Loewen 36) Re: A Plea (was [Humor] ...) by Mike Coyle 37) RE: Sturgeon's Law, Harris, etc. by "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> 38) RE: Sturgeon's Law, Harris, etc. by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 39) Re: Hollywood Trombones Christmas Music. by hal-starkey@webtv.net (Hal Starkey) 40) Re: Hollywood Trombones Christmas Music. by Dennis Clason 41) RE: Sturgeon's Law, Harris, etc. by "Daniel Pliskin" 42) TA Available by Stephen Parsons 43) RE: This Whole Music Thing by "Daniel Pliskin" 44) RE: trombone-tennis elbow (REALLY longwinded) by richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL 45) Re: Michael Davis Quintet+electronics by sabutin@mindspring.com 46) Various ramblings on recent topics by "Bob Hall" 47) Re: the music thread - Rap by "Rodney Ellard" 48) Late Plug: Free LA Area Trombone Concert by BassBonist@aol.com 49) the music thread by Andrewsjon@aol.com 50) see ya in '00 by Beth Lewis 51) Re: Sterling Silver Bells & bass trombones by Peter Collins & Sara Wilbur 52) The effect of music by Yoda505@aol.com 53) Holiday Concert-Bartlett Community Concert Band by paulel9@bellsouth.net 54) Re: Trombone euphemisms by Bodie Pfost 55) Re: Hollywood Trombones Christmas Music. by "Tom Izzo" 56) Re: the music thread - Rap by Anders Carlsson 57) Re: the music thread - Rap by Andrewsjon@aol.com 58) New thread? by Sequoia Middle School 59) RE: the nasty "music thing" thread by Joseph Green 60) Re: the music thread - Rap by Sequoia Middle School 61) Re: New thread? by "Kenneth Dowdy" 62) Re: the music thread - Rap by Chris Waage 63) Re: the music thread by daboneman 64) Re: This Whole Music Thing by Mark Vareschi 65) Re: the music thread - Rap by Andrewsjon@aol.com 66) =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_mit_k=E4se__(was_New_thread=3F)?= by Mike Coyle 67) RE: the nasty "music thing" thread by Mike Coyle 68) Re: the music thread - Rap by Mike Coyle 69) RE: trombone-tennis elbow (REALLY longwinded) by Eric Burger 70) Master Class Commercial by Eric Burger 71) Cheese (was New thread?) by BassBonist@aol.com 72) Re: Master Class Commercial by BassBonist@aol.com 73) Re: Cheesy Music by MikeSuter@aol.com 74) Master Classes by James Scott 75) cheesy by Charles 76) Lest we forget. by Wayne Dyess From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 07:42:30 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Wow, the joint is jumping! Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" My, my, don't we have an active bunch on the list these days! I have been away in NYC and DC for a few days on a BSO tour and have enjoyed reading a great deal of what's been posted but have chosen not to comment. As I'm heading to a very busy period of concerts and as well our family will be busy with preparations for Christmas, I'll be unsubscribing in a few days for a few weeks, so would like to make a few comments on recent posts: 1). Assertions to the contrary notwithstanding, the trombone-l happens to be a private, not a public, forum. It is privately owned and operated, membership is restricted, posts are subject to editing and censorship (although this does not happen, but as a private forum, it is legally allowed to do so). (NB - the fact that a state university acts as the email server host does not qualify it as being a "state actor" nor does it effect the private forum status, see Yeo vs. Town of Lexington, et. al, 1st Circuit Court of Appeals, 1998). Copyright law prohibits the quoting of a person's words without their permission (just because you give a speech in front of a million people doesn't mean your words enter the public domain - just ask Martin Luther King Jr.'s family who holds a tight grip on every word he ever uttered in public). However, in a forum such as this, we freely quote each other's words in response to messages as that is both usual and customary. After a few days of being on the list, we all know this happens - if we're uncomfortable with that, then it is easy enough to unsubscribe. I appreciate Beth's concern that her comments were forwarded further than to those on the list, but it was inevitable. Not legal, not necessarily right, but inevitable. We ought to keep in mind this fact - that the list is a private forum. As such, we are all subject to keep the rules the list owner gives to each of us when we subscribe - which includes being respectful at all times. Blood, Sweat and Tears had a song that included the line: "Kindness is your tool, as a general rule." Good advice. 2). I purchased an interesting new book on JS Bach while in NYC. I have not finished it, but have read enough to know that I can recommend it for its content, quality writing and insightful analysis: The Cambridge Companion to Bach Edited by John Butt Cambridge University Press 1997 ISBN 0521587808 Here is a quotation from a chapter by Martin Zenck on "Bach reception: some concepts and parameters" ==== In his famous work on the St. Matthew Passion, Hans Blumenberg underlined the ontological and historical difference between us today and Bach: "Within this conceptual framework one can think about the person listening to the Passion according to Matthew, the person that Bach had in mind, so as not to overlook him. We also think about the listener many years later from whose horizon the images and analogies, the holy stories and sermons, the words and hymns of Bach's parishioners have vanished, without being substituted by anything comparable." ===== Consideration of this quotation gives much food for thought in evaluating Bach's St. Matthew Passion - or ANY work by ANY composer from ANY time in ANY style, for that matter. Sure, we can ENJOY without understanding, but understanding can bring INSIGHT. Context can ADD to understanding. This does not diminish simply ENJOYING music, but it can ADD to the enjoyment if STUDY occurs. 3). A lot of heat has been generated by Beth's post about the Ralph Sauer clinic/class/sales event/whatever it was. As a further clarification, she wrote, in part: At 6:31 PM -0500 12/12/99, Beth Lewis wrote: >I wasn't at this masterclass so for all I know, Mr. Sauer may have >actually discussed trombone playing in a way that did not necessarily have >to do with playing/purchasing Conns, which would have made "masterclass" >an apt name. Or perhaps when UMI announced this and other similar >events as "masterclasses" they had in mind a 'masterclass to teach good >salemanship as relates to musical instruments' or 'masterclass on the >exciting new options of the Conn 88H.' If that qualifies as an accurate >use for the word "masterclass" to UMI, so be it. But if that's what's >going on they should advertize it as such, so that people who aren't >interested in or already have a new 88H won't waste their time with >traveling to such an event to hear details they already knew or didn't >care to know in the first place. I'm all for calling something what it is. I think most of us agree. If a masterclass is going to be a masterclass, it should be a masterclass (perhaps the Sauer event was, I am not commenting here on that specific event). If it's an instrument demonstration, call it an instrument demonstration. If it's a sales event, call it a sales event. It seems pretty simple. See the next point: 4). At 7:29 PM -0500 12/12/99, BassBonist@aol.com wrote: > >Okay. Maybe you ought to sponsor a "real" unadulterated, noncommercial, >whater-you-want-to-call-it, Master Class out of your own checkbook so that >there will be no brand hawking. Sound like a plan? Of course, you won't >charge people to attend, and promote the heck out of it so it will be well attended. Matt admitted to being partly "tongue in cheek" when he wrote this, but I have to say, it is interesting how different companies deal with these kinds of things. Anyone remember my clinic at the ITF? My clinic was "sponsored" by Yamaha, which meant Yamaha contributed money so I was able to be there (I had to miss a week of work with the Boston Pops in order to come to the ITF). Anyone remember what I said about Yamaha at the clinic? I do: "I want to thank Yamaha for their sponsorship of me. They have been very kind to me over the years and I appreciate their working with me to build the instrument and mouthpiece I use." End of story. My clinic wasn't about Yamaha, it was about my approach to life, music, and the trombone. Yamaha doesn't need me to run around extolling the virtues of their horn. The fact that I play it every day in my normal playing life and people know that IS my endorsement. People often ask me about my equipment and I always tell them the same thing - it works for me. If it works for you, fine, if not, fine. I don't get paid to play it (some folk do) - I play it because I like it. If someone wanted to know more about what I thought about the specifics of the equipment I use, they can come to me after the class, or send me an email message. And they do. Fair enough. If I ever participated in an event where Yamaha wanted me to speak at length about Yamaha, I would tell them it had to be billed as a sales/informational event or I wouldn't be there. Such sales events are central to marketing of instruments. I understand their need and their place, and I have been to such events which have been very useful. But I think Beth has brought up a legitimate point that such events should be called what they are. A 30 minute "infomercial" on TV is not a documentary. A sales event is not a masterclass. There is a difference. I remember when UPS (United Parcel Service) never advertised. Do you? Actually, they DID advertise, but you never saw an ad of theirs on TV or in the newspaper. Do you remember HOW they advertised without advertising? They washed their trucks every night. You NEVER saw a dirty UPS truck. People looked at their trucks every day and thought, "Wow, that's a company that has pride, their trucks are always clean." That's how my relationship with Yamaha works. Their best "selling point" with me for their equipment is for me to play well. It says more than all the hawking of equipment in the world (people are always suspicious when an artist hawks equipment in a clinic because they assume - usually correctly - that money is changing hands. Some people will say anything for money - witness the number of "great artists" who have "endorsed" every brand under the sun until their endorsement credibility is utterly gone.) People know I play Yamaha because I like it, not because they're paying me a salary. THAT is credibility. I don't think there is anything inherently WRONG with people taking money to endorse a product, but I DO feel that it undermines their credibility. That is my PERSONAL OPINION; we have had a discussion about this whole subject about a year ago and I said enough about it then. 5). At 11:22 PM -0500 12/12/99, Beth Lewis wrote: > > >Maybe I've just been blessed with having wonderful teachers, but >whatever happened to people doing these things out of the goodness of >their hearts? It does happen, Beth. Many people do it. I don't need to get paid for a masterclass to pay my mortgage and often I don't (get paid that is, I ALWAYS pay my mortgage!). I give many masterclasses a year that don't get advertised or announced as they are at high schools or local colleges for a specific group of players. Each year, for instance, I give clinics at our local HS for all the students who are auditioning for the district band and orchestra. No money ever changes hands. If an opportunity to do a class arises which calls for me to miss a week of work in the Boston Symphony, I will ask the sponsor to help me "break even" so I don't lose money taking the week off - but most times I don't make anything on the arrangement. That's my choice. Most classes I give I get paid a token $100 which I then donate to charity. It's not about money - I HAVE a full time job which pays my bills. Masterclasses, especially for young players, are a way to "give back." 6). The so called "snobbism" thread is turning a bit to the "dark side" which saddens me and others. I don't have anything more to say on the subject (go ahead, all breathe a sigh of relief...) except it is sad that it has sometimes gotten "personal" and vituperative. I've learned quite a bit from this thread and it's pretty clear that many comments have been taken out of context, hackles get raised over small things, thin skin gets punctured easily and the angry comments probably do little to inform the debate - and they certainly don't change minds. We have managed, over the past few years, to have a very civil forum compared to many email discussion groups (our periodic list "pest" notwithstanding) and I would hope the new year will bring the taking of a collective "big breath" and each of us recalling how much we have all learned from the generosity of the forum. Every time a thread degenerates into anger and name calling we lose subscribers who don't want to deal with the nonsense. That is a loss to all of us. Onward and upward! PS - Want to hear something truly remarkable? Listen to the opening chorus of the Bach St. John Passion and consider how his use of suspensions pulls you into the agony of the Passion. To those who celebrate it, I wish you a very Merry and meaningful Christmas, and to all, a Happy New Year! -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 07:54:30 -0500 From: Feneley To: TBone List Subject: Re: Radical Extremist Snobbism Message-ID: <3854EC85.4760942A@glccomputers.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------D9475D2BD435C10D0913E560" Jon, you wrote:
  
Ken,

Is this a representation of the "Radical Music Snobs Movement"? 

Jon
I'm it's tacit, until provoked, president.

Ken
  From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 08:22:41 -0500 From: Feneley To: TBone List Subject: Re: the nasty "music thing" thread Message-ID: <3854F321.F95A0AF5@glccomputers.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------09065F8D5D1DE0A50195B305" Mike, you wrote:
  

MY personal feelings that America is going through a profound period of
"equality through dumbing down - a kind of intellectual flat-lining" is not
a put down of any group or individual, it is more an observation of
something that is clearly a huge part of the PC movement which has had, and
continues to have, dire effects on our culture.  This is my opinion, that's
all.
You have at least one other who agrees with you. Grades of "A" don't mean "superior" anymore, "B" no longer means "above average," "C" is not "average," "D" has nearly disappeared, and to apply the letter "F" or "E" to a report card is asking for teacher-parent war. I spent from 1958 until 1993 in the trenches with fellow teachers and observed, first hand, this occurring.

Frankly, Mike, I am a late responder. I'm not really as conservative as my message might indicate. However, I am definitely not as liberal as to simply live in hopes that "if I listen to their's and genuinely attempt to appreciate it, they will, in return, listen to mine and genuinely attempt to appreciate it."

What they listen to is around me all of the time. I can't avoid hearing it. Shucks, some of it now bombards me in my basement when one of their cars goes by. There are far more radio stations flaunting their music than there are public radio stations flaunting what I prefer. Far more CDs in stores selling recordings cater to their music than what I prefer. I have found only one, Harmony House-Classical in Birmingham (MI), that caters only to the classical listener. This store has no jazz recording. So I go elsewhere for satisfying my taste for this idiom. But my public radio station provides me satisfication in all areas including, if I wish (and I sometimes do), rock, c/w, folk, etc......
  

I for one am going to do what the "old
timers" here seem to do: limit my personal opinions on serious matters to
private posts among those who I know are mature and thoughtful enough to
discuss things in a reasonable way.  Live and learn! (hopefully  :)
I've already been through this adjustment, Mike.

Wanna, try another thing? Do what I just did. Just for fun, say something about a thread you've been watching some poor guy like you getting roasted on, just to deter some of the ground fire away from him. It's fun. Best of all, it works.

Still smiling.

Ken
 

  From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 08:42:26 -0600 From: Don Wampler To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Crown tooth theory Message-ID: <385505D2.BE43728B@americancentury.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well Sam, There goes my theory...or at least my extra two cents on someone else's theory. And to think that I put in at least 30 or 40 seconds of hard thought into my position. What a waste...although I bet some people actually thought I knew what I was talking about for a minute there. I suppose now I'll have to go back to saying I have an off-centered embouchure instead of the more impressive "Crown tooth embouchure". Sigh........oh well......... :-) Sabutin wrote: >>Hi... >> >> Hard to theorize in general about things like this... >> >> One of MY teeth (front center left) is a bit further forward than the >>others on my top jaw, and the equivalent one below also protrudes a >>bit...but my embouchure(s) are NOT centered upon those teeth...the teeth >>are actually so far to left in regards to where I put my m'pces that the >>rim of my tenor m'pce pretty much lines up with the center of the tooth. From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 08:57:46 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess To: Trombone-L Subject: Illegal??? Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 2:28 PM -0500 12/12/99, Beth Lewis wrote: >There's nothing wrong with asking Mr. Sauer to respond to the discussion, >but directly quoting unknowing persons' responses is just illegal (AND not >nice). I understand Beth's anger... But I'm not so sure this would be considered illegal. Trombone-L, after all, is a PUBLIC forum. If you don't want to be quoted here, then don't write. Simple minded? Sure, but nobudy ever accused me of bein' smart! Lighten up..... Wayne Dyess P.S. quotin' folks is a regularity on trombone-L. Yes? _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ Wayne Dyess, Ed.D. Tel. +1-409-880-8146 _/ _/ Lamar University Music Dept. _/ _/ P.O.Box 10044, Beaumont, TX.77710 _/ _/ _/ _/ United Musical Instruments (UMI) _/ _/ "If it sounds good, it is good." -Duke Ellington _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ Old trombone players never die; They just slide away! From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:01:40 EST From: ButteBlack@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Sauer clinic request Message-ID: <0.a51012a3.25866454@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I accidentally deleted a post asking about the possibility of my bringing Ralph Sauer to the Northwest. To answer that post, Ralph was in the Northwest in Sept. We were at the University of Washington, Central Washington State, Eastern Washington State, University of Idaho, Washington State University. If Ralph would be interested in coming back to the Northwest, I would be happy to set something up in the Spring. If something is scheduled, I will post information on the list. For Northwest trombonist who would be interested in such an event, please post me at Butteblack@aol.com Jimmie From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 09:03:05 -0600 From: "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: This Whole Music Thing Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Mike Coyle wrote, > Paul McCartney, > when asked if it was the quality of their music that made the Beatles so > popular, answered: "no, we were mediocre at best, but mediocre is good > enough for the general public." AMEN - we have done the general public > a > horrible disservice by feeding them more and more crap over the years. - > and then we complain that people have bad taste! > Ah, yes. And for how many years? Several years ago, I was doing research on music at the World's Columbian Exposition (the Chicago world's fair of 1893). So naturally, I was reading a lot of 1893 newspapers. It made me want to stop reading my own newspapers, BTW, because I was reading exactly the same news! (Trouble in Nicaragua, Korea, central Europe--all the same places and much the same problems. Corruption on the Chicago city council. Every newspaper making cynical comments about the intellegence, morals, and policies of most politicians from the President down to the aldermen. Chicago's baseball team really should have won a respectable number of games with the personnel on the team. I mean, it seemed NOTHING had changed in a hundred years.) There was an interview with Charles K. Harris, with the interviewer trying to get him to apologize for writing "After the Ball", which was being played on the fair grounds several times every day. Harris was a fair to middling piano player who could not read or notate music, but had an uncanny knack for understanding what the public would buy. He revolutionized the popular music business in this country. He was too busy making money to apologize for any over-played hit. Another brief spot purported to be an interview between a publisher and an agent for a new song writer. The agent admitted that his client knew nothing about melody or harmony and had no musical training at all. The publisher got all excited, proclaiming that this writer would give the public exactly what it wanted. Again, these articles came out in 1893. I mentioned Harris once before, and I challenged you all to name one other song he wrote besides "After the Ball" or one of his equally successful contemporaries. They are completely forgotten. When I said that music written for people who are knowledgeable about music is inherently superior to music written for people who know nothing about music, someone called me a snob. I suspect Paul McCartney and Charles K. Harris would not agree. In a hundred years, will McCartney's name mean anything more than Harris's? But Bach and Bartok will still be honored by that minority of the population who know or care about good taste. It's too early to predict who among the symphonic and operatic composers now living will be considered in the same class as Bach and Bartok, but there will be some. ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ David Guion, Cataloger John Marshall Law School 315 S. Plymouth Ct. Chicago, IL 60604 Voice: (312) 427-2737 x 552 Fax; (312) 427-8307 "Outside of a dog, books are a man's best friend; inside of a dog, it's too dark to read"--Groucho Marx ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 07:48:58 -0800 (PST) From: Dave Burns To: Trombone-L Subject: Sauer-ing Message-ID: <19991213154858.15477.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Wow! Lots of words flying around the list this weekend. There's talk of trombonists suing each other, the questioning of people's honesty, and the right to privacy. What does it all mean? Not much. Here's my spin on this stuff: If you don't want your views known, don't express them. Don't accuse people if you don't have the evidence. When you attack somebody, don't be surprised if they defend themselves. When you're proven wrong, apologize, lest we forget. Gotta practice, ===== Dave Burns dixiedaveb@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 09:54:04 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: jfeneley@glccomputers.com Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: the nasty "music thing" thread Message-ID: <199912131556.JAA14188@ties.k12.mn.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; types="text/plain,text/html"; boundary="=====================_2561072==_.ALT"
Ken, I really appreciate your letter and your support.  I have also tried to speak up when I see someone getting unfairly and mindlessly attacked - you're right, it is fun  :)   Heck, I don't even have to agree with someone to put in my .02 worth of support if I think they are just getting kicked around! 

Apart from our spiritual stregnth and guidance (for some of us), all we have in life is each other (oh, and our vast bank accounts, the summer home in Monte Carlo,  the matched set of Panteras in the garage, and the yacht!)

Take care,

Mike

At 08:28 AM 12/13/99 -0600, you wrote:

X-From_: owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Mon Dec 13 07:25:54 1999
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 08:22:41 -0500
Reply-To: jfeneley@glccomputers.com
Sender: owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu
From: Feneley
To: "Trombones and related issues forum."
Subject: Re: the nasty "music thing" thread
X-To: TBone List
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U)

Mike, you wrote:
  


MY personal feelings that America is going through a
profound period of
"equality through dumbing down - a kind of intellectual
flat-lining" is not
a put down of any group or individual, it is more an observation of
something that is clearly a huge part of the PC movement which has had,
and
continues to have, dire effects on our culture.  This is my
opinion,
that's
all.
You have at least one other who agrees with you. Grades of "A" don't mean "superior" anymore, "B" no longer means "above average," "C" is not "average," "D" has nearly disappeared, and to apply the letter "F" or "E" to a report card is asking for teacher-parent war. I spent from 1958 until 1993 in the trenches with fellow teachers and observed, first hand, this occurring.

Frankly, Mike, I am a late responder. I'm not really as conservative as my message might indicate. However, I am definitely not as liberal as to simply live in hopes that "if I listen to their's and genuinely attempt to appreciate it, they will, in return, listen to mine and genuinely attempt to appreciate it."

What they listen to is around me all of the time. I can't avoid hearing it. Shucks, some of it now bombards me in my basement when one of their cars goes by. There are far more radio stations flaunting their music than there are public radio stations flaunting what I prefer. Far more CDs in stores selling recordings cater to their music than what I prefer. I have found only one, Harmony House-Classical in Birmingham (MI), that caters only to the classical listener. This store has no jazz recording. So I go elsewhere for satisfying my taste for this idiom. But my public radio station provides me satisfication in all areas including, if I wish (and I sometimes do), rock, c/w, folk, etc......
  


I for one am going to do what the "old
timers" here seem to do: limit my personal opinions on serious
matters to
private posts among those who I know are mature and thoughtful enough 
to
discuss things in a reasonable way.  Live and learn!
(hopefully  :)
I've already been through this adjustment, Mike.

Wanna, try another thing? Do what I just did. Just for fun, say something about a thread you've been watching some poor guy like you getting roasted on, just to deter some of the ground fire away from him. It's fun. Best of all, it works.

Still smiling.

Ken
 

 



From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 09:54:37 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Fwd: Wow, the joint is jumping! Message-ID: <199912131556.JAA14272@ties.k12.mn.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:27 AM 12/13/99 -0600, Doug wrote: >6). The so called "snobbism" thread is turning a bit to the "dark >side" which saddens me and others. I don't have anything more to say >on the subject (go ahead, all breathe a sigh of relief...) except it >is sad that it has sometimes gotten "personal" and vituperative. >I've learned quite a bit from this thread and it's pretty clear that >many comments have been taken out of context, hackles get raised over >small things, thin skin gets punctured easily and the angry comments >probably do little to inform the debate - and they certainly don't >change minds. We have managed, over the past few years, to have a >very civil forum compared to many email discussion groups (our >periodic list "pest" notwithstanding) and I would hope the new year >will bring the taking of a collective "big breath" and each of us >recalling how much we have all learned from the generosity of the >forum. Every time a thread degenerates into anger and name calling we >lose subscribers who don't want to deal with the nonsense. That is a >loss to all of us. Thank you, Doug. My sentiments exactly. I have been around the internet long enough to see this happen time and again, but it always disappoints me none-the-less. Mike Coyle From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 09:55:05 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: 8guion@jmls.edu Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: This Whole Music Thing Message-ID: <199912131557.JAA14339@ties.k12.mn.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bravo, David! I feel less lonely now than I did most of the weekend :) Mike At 09:03 AM 12/13/99 -0600, you wrote: >Mike Coyle wrote, > >> Paul McCartney, >> when asked if it was the quality of their music that made the Beatles so >> popular, answered: "no, we were mediocre at best, but mediocre is good >> enough for the general public." AMEN - we have done the general public >> a >> horrible disservice by feeding them more and more crap over the years. - >> and then we complain that people have bad taste! >> >Ah, yes. And for how many years? Several years ago, I was doing research on >music at the World's Columbian Exposition (the Chicago world's fair of >1893). So naturally, I was reading a lot of 1893 newspapers. It made me want >to stop reading my own newspapers, BTW, because I was reading exactly the >same news! (Trouble in Nicaragua, Korea, central Europe--all the same places >and much the same problems. Corruption on the Chicago city council. Every >newspaper making cynical comments about the intellegence, morals, and >policies of most politicians from the President down to the aldermen. >Chicago's baseball team really should have won a respectable number of games >with the personnel on the team. I mean, it seemed NOTHING had changed in a >hundred years.) > >There was an interview with Charles K. Harris, with the interviewer trying >to get him to apologize for writing "After the Ball", which was being played >on the fair grounds several times every day. Harris was a fair to middling >piano player who could not read or notate music, but had an uncanny knack >for understanding what the public would buy. He revolutionized the popular >music business in this country. He was too busy making money to apologize >for any over-played hit. > >Another brief spot purported to be an interview between a publisher and an >agent for a new song writer. The agent admitted that his client knew nothing >about melody or harmony and had no musical training at all. The publisher >got all excited, proclaiming that this writer would give the public exactly >what it wanted. > >Again, these articles came out in 1893. > >I mentioned Harris once before, and I challenged you all to name one other >song he wrote besides "After the Ball" or one of his equally successful >contemporaries. They are completely forgotten. > >When I said that music written for people who are knowledgeable about music >is inherently superior to music written for people who know nothing about >music, someone called me a snob. I suspect Paul McCartney and Charles K. >Harris would not agree. In a hundred years, will McCartney's name mean >anything more than Harris's? But Bach and Bartok will still be honored by >that minority of the population who know or care about good taste. It's too >early to predict who among the symphonic and operatic composers now living >will be considered in the same class as Bach and Bartok, but there will be >some. > >^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ >David Guion, Cataloger >John Marshall Law School >315 S. Plymouth Ct. >Chicago, IL 60604 >Voice: (312) 427-2737 x 552 Fax; (312) 427-8307 > >"Outside of a dog, books are a man's best friend; inside of a dog, >it's too dark to read"--Groucho Marx > >^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ > From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:04:02 -0600 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: This Whole Music Thing Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain David wrote: > When I said that music written for people who are knowledgeable about > music > is inherently superior to music written for people who know nothing about > music, someone called me a snob. > That should not have happened. I would think that generally a bridge designed by an engineer would be inherently superior to one designed by a novice. I would also think that an operation performed by a surgeon would be generally more successful than one performed by a member of the general public. This is not snobbery, nor is it belittling the general public. Generally, these statements are true (with the inevitable exceptions). I think the basic problem is that the norms for engineering and surgery are a bit better defined, quantified, and accepted than they are for most art forms. Most people are intelligent enough to know that they are not an engineer, or a surgeon, or an airline pilot, or whatever. But everyone thinks they are an artist. How many of us had engineering classes in grade school? Or classes on medicine and surgery? Or flight training? But we all had music, band, and art. This creates a bit of a perception problem. Familiarity may not always breed contempt, but it can lead to complacency. The arts are often perceived as something done as a passtime, for fun. People who are professional artists are often dismissed as "someone who couldn't get a real job". I think that this misconception breeds a lot of contempt and bad feelings from both sides, leading to snobbery at one extreme, and flat out ignorant disrespect on the other. As usual, the truth is somewhere in between. > I suspect Paul McCartney and Charles K. > Harris would not agree. In a hundred years, will McCartney's name mean > anything more than Harris's? > Probably. Paul McCartney wrote far more than two "hits". He and the Beatles also gained exposure all around the world, even in places where Bach's name is unknown among the masses. I would bet that he will be remembered for at least a hundred years. I would also be willing to bet that 100 years from now, you will still hear people "covering" his tunes and lyrics. I would be willing to bet that world over, McCartney / Lennon and the Beatles are more known, and more loved than any other composer / performer. I don't see this ending any time soon. BTW, this is just an observation of mine having traveled overseas and having many "multicultural" friends. I am NOT a Beatles fanatic, and in fact do not own a single one of their recordings, although I find much of their music pleasing. > But Bach and Bartok will still be honored by > that minority of the population who know or care about good taste. > Bach will still be remembered by many. Bartok? Probably only by a few academics and musicologists. Bach, like McCartney, had a wide range of work with a very broad based appeal. I would venture to guess that if Bartok's most famous composition (you pick it) were played for most people (even fairly well educated), they would be hard pressed to name the composer. This would be, I would guess, more a matter of exposure than taste. Far more people have heard Bach and Beethoven and Strauss than Bartok and other equally gifted composers. > It's too > early to predict who among the symphonic and operatic composers now living > will be considered in the same class as Bach and Bartok, but there will be > some. > Probably true. Neither Bach nor Bartok were very well known in their time. If history continues to repeat itself, the "darlings" of the artistic world of 2100 A.D. will probably be those totally unknown today. This, of course, assumes that we progress according to the current historical line. Civilizations come and go. Currently, our Western civilization is in a state of decline. With the advances made in communication, and the globalization of nearly every aspect of our life, it is even possible that in 2100 Bach and McCartney will be totally unknown, and the "intellectual elite" of that era will be fawning over an artist who is today working in Asia, India, or Africa. For all we know, the 12 note scale and the major and minor keys that we know today may be as obscure and foreign to the ear 200 years from now as lute tabliture (sp?) and mean tone tuning are to many today. Perhaps this will be a loss for humanity. It won't really matter to me, however, because I intend on being quite dead 200 years from now :-) Ken Dowdy > ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ > David Guion, Cataloger > John Marshall Law School > 315 S. Plymouth Ct. > Chicago, IL 60604 > Voice: (312) 427-2737 x 552 Fax; (312) 427-8307 > > "Outside of a dog, books are a man's best friend; inside of a dog, > it's too dark to read"--Groucho Marx > > ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:10:05 -0600 From: Chris Waage To: Trombone-L , brass@quartz.gly.fsu.edu Subject: Online Trombone Journal Classifieds Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Looking for that last-minute Christmas Present for yourself? If so, check the OTJ Classifieds! The Online Trombone Journal Classifieds (http://www.trombone.org/classifieds) have been updated with a large number of new listings. OTJ Instrument Classifieds http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/instruments.asp OTJ Accessory Classifieds http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/accessories.asp OTJ Music Classifieds http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/music.asp To place an ad: http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/adform.asp If you have any questions or comments about the Online Trombone Journal Classifieds, please contact me at chris@trombone.org. Chris _________________________________________ Chris Waage chris@trombone.org Associate Webmaster The Online Trombone Journal http://www.trombone.org From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 09:50:45 MST From: Dennis Clason To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Thoughts on sponsorship Message-ID: <199912131651.JAA70120@nestor.NMSU.Edu> Gee, I go home for a weekend and things just seem to head off toward the looney bin ... Disclaimer: this is being written in an (vain) attempt to ignore a stack of final exams sitting next to me. Ralph Sauer asked if having Larry Minick cut down an 8H bell and make them removable made his 8H a Minick. I'd respond, No -- but's it's not exactly an 8H, either. If it's not stock, if you've modified it and the mods aren't on the production model you don't play it. Not that anyone cares (except me and reeds that have to play in front of me), I don't play a Bach 50. The instrument was so heavily modified before I bought it that it isn't a Bach 50. RS's 8H is a lot closer to being an 8H than my thayerized beast is to being a Bach 50. But it's still not an 8H. Personally, I'd prefer to see master classes be master classes -- when we had Chris Vadala here a few years ago, Chris thanked Selmer for sponsoring his trip to the hinterlands, and there was a Selmer banner on Chris's sax stand. Chris even played a contemporary Selmer alto ... very well. To my mind, that's the extent of promotion that belongs in a master class. It's about music, not marketing. A master class (by my experience/understanding) is lecture - demonstration, using students as the demonstration material. If you want to bring Gene Eric trombonist in to demonstrate Bone-o- phones, advertise it as a demonstration. That's *not* a master class: no students involved. It would be *really* interesting to bring some other players up and have them try the various set ups. I suspect the manufacturers might not like what buyers would learn, though. (Specifically, that you're more important than the instrument is -- the features of your playing that make you sound like you will come through regardless. Or as Bill Clark put it, "In the old days, we practiced.") Well, those finals still haven't graded themselves. I guess I'll have to do it after all. For anyone looking for a get rich quick scheme, I have a suggestion for you: invent a self-grading test (multiple guess formats need not apply), and sell it cheap. Teachers everywhere will beat a path to your door. Dennis -- Dennis L. Clason email: dclason@nmsu.edu Department of Economics / University Statistics Center New Mexico State University Las Cruces, New Mexico USA From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:09:36 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: dclason@nmsu.edu Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Thoughts on sponsorship Message-ID: <199912131711.LAA25225@ties.k12.mn.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bone-o-phones??????? what on earth is that? BTW, who is Bill Clark? I have seen this quote, "In the old days, we >practiced.", and love it - I want to always credit him for it and would like to know who he is. Thanks, Mike At 09:50 AM 12/13/99 -0700, you wrote: > >Gee, I go home for a weekend and things just seem to head off toward >the looney bin ... > >Disclaimer: this is being written in an (vain) attempt to ignore a >stack of final exams sitting next to me. > >Ralph Sauer asked if having Larry Minick cut down an 8H bell and make >them removable made his 8H a Minick. I'd respond, No -- but's it's >not exactly an 8H, either. If it's not stock, if you've modified it >and the mods aren't on the production model you don't play it. Not >that anyone cares (except me and reeds that have to play in front of >me), I don't play a Bach 50. The instrument was so heavily modified >before I bought it that it isn't a Bach 50. RS's 8H is a lot closer to >being an 8H than my thayerized beast is to being a Bach 50. But it's >still not an 8H. > >Personally, I'd prefer to see master classes be master classes -- when >we had Chris Vadala here a few years ago, Chris thanked Selmer for >sponsoring his trip to the hinterlands, and there was a Selmer banner >on Chris's sax stand. Chris even played a contemporary Selmer alto ... >very well. To my mind, that's the extent of promotion that belongs >in a master class. It's about music, not marketing. A master class >(by my experience/understanding) is lecture - demonstration, using >students as the demonstration material. > >If you want to bring Gene Eric trombonist in to demonstrate Bone-o- >phones, advertise it as a demonstration. That's *not* a master class: >no students involved. It would be *really* interesting to bring some >other players up and have them try the various set ups. I suspect >the manufacturers might not like what buyers would learn, though. >(Specifically, that you're more important than the instrument is -- >the features of your playing that make you sound like you will come >through regardless. Or as Bill Clark put it, "In the old days, we >practiced.") > >Well, those finals still haven't graded themselves. I guess I'll >have to do it after all. For anyone looking for a get rich quick >scheme, I have a suggestion for you: invent a self-grading test >(multiple guess formats need not apply), and sell it cheap. Teachers >everywhere will beat a path to your door. > > >Dennis >-- > >Dennis L. Clason email: dclason@nmsu.edu >Department of Economics / University Statistics Center >New Mexico State University >Las Cruces, New Mexico USA > From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 09:26:00 -0800 From: Sequoia Middle School To: daboneman@mciworld.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: the music thread Message-ID: <38552C28.C6BF56D6@bcsd.k12.ca.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit daboneman wrote: > I have to reply to this thread again. Like I said before, ALL forms of music > (and yes, rap is a form of music) has its worth. All of us on this list can > agree with me on this: There is good and bad in all forms of music. Probably due to my closed mind, but I'm afraid that I would not even recognize good Rap if I heard it. What is good Rap 'music?'? Gary Maxwell Bass Trombone Bakersfield Symphony Orchestra (Fresh from approximately 80 performances of the "Nutcracker Ballet" over the passed 20+ years) From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:42:59 MST From: Dennis Clason To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: the music thread Message-ID: <199912131743.KAA53404@nestor.NMSU.Edu> Addressed to: maxwellg@bcsd.k12.ca.us trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu ** Reply to note from Sequoia Middle School 12/13/99 09:26am -0800 > daboneman wrote: > > > I have to reply to this thread again. Like I said before, ALL forms of music > > (and yes, rap is a form of music) has its worth. All of us on this list can > > agree with me on this: There is good and bad in all forms of music. > > Probably due to my closed mind, but I'm afraid that I would not even > recognize good Rap if I heard it. What is good Rap 'music?'? Assume Sturgeon's Law applies: Ninety percent of everything is crap. : ) Applying Sturgeon's prior to any piece of rap music and you conclude it's crap. Hmmmm. I feel a paper coming on ... \MODE serious ON I couldn't recognize good rap any more than I could recognize good Gamelan music from Bali. It's not in my cultural set. Koto music, on the other hand, is in my cultural set, and I can recognize good Koto playing when I hear it. I don't especially like it, but I can recognize it. Dennis -- Dennis L. Clason email: dclason@nmsu.edu Department of Economics / University Statistics Center New Mexico State University Las Cruces, New Mexico USA From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:42:44 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: the music thread Message-ID: <199912131744.LAA29982@ties.k12.mn.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Oh My :) Gary, you win the "biggest cojones on the list" award from me for posting this :) I can't even imagine what the responses may be? It is a really good question though and I want to see if someone can give an answer that'll satisfy me as well. Thanks Signed, Sitting back and waiting for the fireworks to begin, Mike THere is a guy At 09:26 AM 12/13/99 -0800, you wrote: >daboneman wrote: > >> I have to reply to this thread again. Like I said before, ALL forms of music >> (and yes, rap is a form of music) has its worth. All of us on this list can >> agree with me on this: There is good and bad in all forms of music. > >Probably due to my closed mind, but I'm afraid that I would not even recognize good >Rap if I heard it. What is good Rap 'music?'? > >Gary Maxwell >Bass Trombone >Bakersfield Symphony Orchestra >(Fresh from approximately 80 performances of the "Nutcracker Ballet" over the >passed 20+ years) > From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:51:39 -0600 From: Chris Waage To: Trombone-L Subject: Sponsorships Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ever watch TV? Ever notice that those intellectually-stimulating offerings are brought to you courtesy of .... The commercials are what make broadcast TV a viable entity. Ever read a newspaper? Ever notice the bottom third of the page is usually covered with advertisements? Yep. Without those advertisements, the newspaper would not be a viable entity. I picked up a recent copy of a quarterly music publication, and after doing a quick column-inch evaluation, found that well over half of the pages in this publication were advertisements. Personally, I believe that the sponsorship of a clinic or masterclass by a manufacturer is a great thing. Granted, they should have the opportunity to display their products, and if the clinician uses their products, he should be allowed to offer his endorsement. However, if the entire masterclass or clinic ends up looking a bit like the Ron Popiel Info-mercials on late-night television, that's too far. I have seen artists at masterclasses mention that they play XXX-brand instrument and XXX-brand mouthpieces and leave it at that. I have also seen individuals doing clinics who say that the sponsor's product is the best and that all others are junk. That's just plain irresponsible. It's great to know what the pros are playing. It is even better to have the opportunity to hear and see them live. Even better still is the opportunity to interact one-to-one with some of the best musicians in the world. Since Henry Ford came up with the idea of putting a beautiful model next to a Model A to catch the attention of the predominately male consumer, every company in the world has looked for the right hook to promote its product or service. Masterclasses and clinics, luckily, can have a dual purpose. Try our stuff and learn at the same time - what a concept! As for if the artist actually uses what he promotes, that's between the artist and the company he's endorsing. All I know is that if I were receiving a paycheck from a company for endorsing their instrument, you bet it would be my main axe! Then again, there's always the possibility some companies might pay me NEVER to play one of their instruments in public....... ;-) Chris _____________________________________________ Chris Waage basstbn@waageworks.com http://www.waageworks.com "Wisdom comes from Knowledge. Knowledge comes from Good Judgement. Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement." _____________________________________________ From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:53:57 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Trombone euphemisms Message-ID: <199912131755.LAA01427@ties.k12.mn.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" OK kids, I have a new, light-hearted thread we can play with. I have been informed by a couple people that bone-o-phone is a euphemism for trombone (in the secular world). I propose that we each submit our favorite euphemisms. This seems pretty low on the "potential controversy" scale to me! I don't really know too many as I have always been a rather sober and humorless fellow, with nothing but the utmost respect and reverence for our divine instrument ;) but.... I have always had a liking for the term "slush pump" Let the fun begin! mike From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:06:26 -0600 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Sponsorships Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Chris wrote: > However, if the entire masterclass or clinic ends up looking a bit like > the > Ron Popiel Info-mercials on late-night television, that's too far. I have > seen artists at masterclasses mention that they play XXX-brand instrument > and XXX-brand mouthpieces and leave it at that. > What? You don't have the Popiel 'bone-O-matiC (for only 19.99)? Ken From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 13:13:11 -0500 From: Paul Riley To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Trombone euphemisms Message-ID: <38553737.6927C06@greenlinnet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All, According to my five year old I play "that bent piece of pipe that stretches." Paul L. Riley paul@greenlinnet.com From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:32:53 -0800 From: Peter Ellefson To: Trombone List Subject: Sauer/UMI Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear Listers, Just a quick opinion on the Ralph Sauer/UMI topic. In September of this year Mr. Sauer and Mr. Edwards (the UMI District Manager) came through Seattle with literally a van load of new trombones for us to try. This wasn't a "masterclass", but rather an informative opportunity for our section to learn about and try the new developments at Conn. I very much appreciated these gentleman taking their time to show us what is available and giving us ample opportunity to try the instruments. We played them individually, as a section and even persuaded Mr. Sauer to play with us. For me it was an afternoon of fun. I felt no pressure to "sign on the dotted line"---actually, they were interested in our impressions and what could make the instruments better. I think that is admirable. How many other instrument companies (there are only a couple that I know of) are trying to IMPROVE their product? Complacency has taken its toll on some pretty heavyweight instrument manufacturers. BTW, it is fantasy to believe that information given in ANY masterclass is totally objective. That is the point of the class---to get input and ideas from an established professional. Every clinician has their own bias and area of expertise. My advice to those who haven't yet figured this out is: Regarding lessons and masterclasses--Ultimately, what you choose to accept and incorporate into your playing is YOUR decision, not that of the teacher/clinician. Soak up the information and evaluate it, you may agree with it and use it, you may not. Even if you don't agree with it---at least consider and/or try it out---otherwise why attend these events? There are many roads that lead to the same place and there are many nice places. Be open to diversity. Peter Ellefson Seattle Symphony From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:58:13 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess To: basstbn@waageworks.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Emulation (was Re: Evolution) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 12:06 PM -0600 12/10/99, Chris Waage wrote: >Then again, there's always those Texans out thar with the "Bigger is >Better" philosophy . . . ;-) Hey! Watch it! I'm not one of those guys. You kin HAVE yore big ole ugly thangs. Give me my beloved 88H-SGX and Conn 6H (and soon to be delivered pristine 4H off ebay) and I'm a happy Texan! Just watch it out thar, podner! --Wayne Dyess Texas Proud!!! _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ Wayne Dyess, Ed.D. Tel. +1-409-880-8146 _/ _/ Lamar University Music Dept. _/ _/ P.O.Box 10044, Beaumont, TX.77710 _/ _/ _/ _/ United Musical Instruments (UMI) _/ _/ "If it sounds good, it is good." -Duke Ellington _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ Old trombone players never die; They just slide away! From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:48:52 -0800 From: Sequoia Middle School To: Anders.Carlsson@gfs.gu.se Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: the music thread Message-ID: <38553F94.FB7C11C6@bcsd.k12.ca.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Anders Carlsson wrote: > Don«t forget brass snobs. Aren't those the shinny little things that are put on drawers, so that they can be pulled open? Couldn't resist! Back to my class. Gary Maxwell From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:57:04 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: maxwellg@bcsd.k12.ca.us Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: the music thread Message-ID: <199912131859.MAA09326@ties.k12.mn.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I am so pissed that I missed that opportunity for punning. Good for you Gary! :) mike At 10:48 AM 12/13/99 -0800, you wrote: > > >Anders Carlsson wrote: > >> Don«t forget brass snobs. > >Aren't those the shinny little things that are put on drawers, so that >they can be pulled open? > >Couldn't resist! Back to my class. > >Gary Maxwell > From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 14:02:06 -0500 From: "Richard Human, Jr." To: Trombone List Subject: [Humor] If (SenseOfHumor < RainFallInSahara) Then Delete Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi all, Just some light laughs.. YOU MIGHT BE A MUSIC THEORY GEEK IF: you like to march around your room to the rhythms of Stravinsky's "Le Sacre du Printemps." you love to quote Walter Piston. you long for the good old days of movable G-clefs. you feel the need to end Tchaikovsky's Pathetique Symphony with a picardy third. you can improvise 16th century counterpoint with no trouble, but you frequently forget how to tie your shoes. you lament the decline of serialism. you enjoy the tang of a tritone whenever you can. you like to deceive your friends and loved ones with deceptive cadences. you find free counterpoint too liberal. you wonder what a "Danish Sixth" would sound like. the "Corelli Clash" gives you goosebumps. you can hear an enharmonic modulation coming a mile away. you have ever done a Schenkerian analysis on "Three Blind Mice." you have ever tried to do a Schenkerian analysis on John Cage's " 4'33" ". you have hosted a "Gurrelieder" party. you have ever pondered what an augmented seventh chord would sound like. bass motion by ascending thirds or a sequential pattern with roots in ascending fifths immediately strikes you as "belabored." you know what the ninth overtone of the harmonic series is off the top of your head. you can name ten of Palestrina's contemporaries. you have ever heard a wrong note in a performance of a piece by Berio, Stockhausen, or Boulez. when you're feeling particularly prankish, you transpose Mozart arias to locrian mode. you keep a notebook of useful diminutions. those "parasitic" dissonances make you queasy, especially when left unresolved. you know the difference between a Courante and a Corrente. you have ever used the word "fortspinnung" in polite conversation. you feel cheated by evaded cadences. every now and then you like to kick back and play something in hypophrygian mode. you abbreviate your shopping list using figured bass. you have ever told a joke that had this punchline: "because it was POLYPHONIC!" you can not only identify any one of Bach's 371 Harmonized Chorales by ear, but you also know on what page it appears in the Riemenschneider edition and how many suspensions it has in the first seven bars. From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 14:04:24 -0500 From: Thomas Cox To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Sturgeon's Law, Harris, etc. Message-ID: <5FA575D78630D3118B2E0090276DC89F0CD5E6@merc08.us.sas.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----Original Message----- From: Dennis Clason [mailto:dclason@nmsu.edu] Sent: Monday, December 13, 1999 12:43 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: the music thread > Assume Sturgeon's Law applies: Ninety percent of everything is crap. : ) > Applying Sturgeon's prior to any piece of rap music and you conclude it's > crap. Hmmmm. I feel a paper coming on ... > \MODE serious ON > I couldn't recognize good rap any more than I could recognize good Gamelan > music from Bali. It's not in my cultural set. My $0.02: Sturgeon was an optimist... But seriously, I think Dennis is right on the mark here. Time has provided a good, if not perfect, filter for eliminating the 90%+ of effluvia from the formal music catalog. (...where "formal" is just my term for the mainstream works of the musical periods from early barouque through late romantic, as a substitite for the term "classical" music.) Conversely, popular music hasn't benefitted from such a winnowing, at least not to an adequate extent. I also lack the cultural/experiential filters for rap and country that I have developed for formal music, jazz, blues, and some other eclectic genres. This is partly because of personal tastes, partly due to environmental influences, and partly because of the effort involved in developing a new set of filters - it's easier for me to conclude that ALL country music is bad than to work at identifying the 10% (or less) that has some merit. For example, I enjoy listening to some of the turn of the century/tinpan alley tunes from Charles K. Harris' contemporaries. (BTW, Harris also wrote "Girl Shy" and "Hello Central, Connect Me to Heaven" - what's the prize? ;-) My personal filter for such music is Leon Redbone - he's sorted out a few of the best. Not that I would trade the lot of them for "St. Matthew's Passion." ...which, incidentally, I ran across twice last week: performing the "O Sacred Head" choral adaptation with the church chorus, and with our trombone ensemble ("Sackbut Lunch") as "Herzlich Thut Mich Verlangen", the Hassler chorale that Bach "borrowed" for same. And while I'm tying in loose threads, it's at the top of my funeral music list, but *only* if played on matched oversized Bachs with original Thayer's, 6.5AL's, and lubricated with Trombotine and Evian by players sponsored by Selmer who don't buzz during the service or warm down on muted long "false trigger" tones afterwards. ;-) Thomas Cox FWIW, Thomas Cox From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:38 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:13:57 -0800 From: Sequoia Middle School To: DyessJW@hal.lamar.edu Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Illegal??? Message-ID: <38554575.CBF8A061@bcsd.k12.ca.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wayne Dyess wrote: > Simple minded? > > Sure, but nobudy ever accused me of bein' smart! Not even where the skin is broken? > Lighten up..... I know, 14 lbs won't do it. Gotta do more like 30. (:>)) Gary Maxwell From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 13:27:01 -0600 From: Chris Waage To: Trombone-L Subject: Musical Taste and Freedom Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Taste: Your own individual likes and dislikes in music. Everybody has a slightly different taste in music. I have a very good friend in St. Louis, Missouri, and he and I share music back and forth constantly. 99% of the time, we like each other's selections. That 1%, though usually is a case of "How can you like that garbage?" We just laugh and move on. Sharing your own opinion of music is great. However, when you move from the point of sharing your opinion to imposing your taste on others ("I don't like it, so it stinks and you shouldn't listen to it either") smacks of facism. Allowing others to freely form their opinions and tastes while exchanging those opinions *freely and non-judgementally* are cornerstones of freedom in society. Then again, if you disagree with that, you have the right to your own opinion . . . anybody want to post Joseph Heller's novel "Catch-22"? ;-) Chris (Isn't it amazing what thoughts pop into one's mind after serious sleep deprivation?) _____________________________________________ Chris Waage basstbn@waageworks.com http://www.waageworks.com "Wisdom comes from Knowledge. Knowledge comes from Good Judgement. Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement." _____________________________________________ From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 13:49:58 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: richard@trombone.org Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: [Humor] If (SenseOfHumor < RainFallInSahara) Then Delete Message-ID: <199912131952.NAA16625@ties.k12.mn.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" No comment, and I prefer to call myself a theory connoisseur, thank you! :) and One small comment concerning this: >you have ever done a Schenkerian analysis on "Three Blind Mice." As a set theorist and somewhat of an anti-Schenkarian my opinion is that Schenker, by use of his specious reasoning and "theory by reductio ad absurdum" has already reduced every piece in a major key to "Three Blind Mice." What he would have done to "Three Blind Mice" would have squashed it so severely that it would be no longer a part of our space/time continuum. I, on the other hand, have expanded it to an aggregate array of subsets with a common center :) Mike At 02:02 PM 12/13/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hi all, > >Just some light laughs.. > >YOU MIGHT BE A MUSIC THEORY GEEK IF: > >you like to march around your room to the rhythms of Stravinsky's "Le >Sacre du Printemps." > >you love to quote Walter Piston. > >you long for the good old days of movable G-clefs. > >you feel the need to end Tchaikovsky's Pathetique Symphony with a >picardy third. > >you can improvise 16th century counterpoint with no trouble, but you >frequently forget how to tie your shoes. > >you lament the decline of serialism. > >you enjoy the tang of a tritone whenever you can. > >you like to deceive your friends and loved ones with deceptive cadences. > >you find free counterpoint too liberal. > >you wonder what a "Danish Sixth" would sound like. > >the "Corelli Clash" gives you goosebumps. > >you can hear an enharmonic modulation coming a mile away. > >you have ever done a Schenkerian analysis on "Three Blind Mice." > >you have ever tried to do a Schenkerian analysis on John Cage's " 4'33" >". > >you have hosted a "Gurrelieder" party. > >you have ever pondered what an augmented seventh chord would sound like. > >bass motion by ascending thirds or a sequential pattern with roots in >ascending fifths immediately strikes you as "belabored." > >you know what the ninth overtone of the harmonic series is off the top >of your head. > >you can name ten of Palestrina's contemporaries. > >you have ever heard a wrong note in a performance of a piece by Berio, >Stockhausen, or Boulez. > >when you're feeling particularly prankish, you transpose Mozart arias >to locrian mode. > >you keep a notebook of useful diminutions. > >those "parasitic" dissonances make you queasy, especially when left >unresolved. > >you know the difference between a Courante and a Corrente. > >you have ever used the word "fortspinnung" in polite conversation. > >you feel cheated by evaded cadences. > >every now and then you like to kick back and play something in >hypophrygian mode. > >you abbreviate your shopping list using figured bass. > >you have ever told a joke that had this punchline: "because it was >POLYPHONIC!" > >you can not only identify any one of Bach's 371 Harmonized Chorales by >ear, but you also know on what page it appears in the Riemenschneider >edition and how many suspensions it has in the first seven bars. > From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 14:52:14 -0500 From: David Buckley To: richard@trombone.org Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: [Humor] If (SenseOfHumor < RainFallInSahara) Then Delete Message-ID: <38554E6E.5FC37ED6@sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Boy, you sure know how to make a guy feel ignorant. But I know what I like!! Dave Buckley. "Richard Human, Jr." wrote: > Hi all, > > Just some light laughs.. > > YOU MIGHT BE A MUSIC THEORY GEEK IF: > > you like to march around your room to the rhythms of Stravinsky's "Le > Sacre du Printemps." > > you love to quote Walter Piston. > > you long for the good old days of movable G-clefs. > > you feel the need to end Tchaikovsky's Pathetique Symphony with a > picardy third. > > you can improvise 16th century counterpoint with no trouble, but you > frequently forget how to tie your shoes. > > you lament the decline of serialism. > > you enjoy the tang of a tritone whenever you can. > > you like to deceive your friends and loved ones with deceptive cadences. > > you find free counterpoint too liberal. > > you wonder what a "Danish Sixth" would sound like. > > the "Corelli Clash" gives you goosebumps. > > you can hear an enharmonic modulation coming a mile away. > > you have ever done a Schenkerian analysis on "Three Blind Mice." > > you have ever tried to do a Schenkerian analysis on John Cage's " 4'33" > ". > > you have hosted a "Gurrelieder" party. > > you have ever pondered what an augmented seventh chord would sound like. > > bass motion by ascending thirds or a sequential pattern with roots in > ascending fifths immediately strikes you as "belabored." > > you know what the ninth overtone of the harmonic series is off the top > of your head. > > you can name ten of Palestrina's contemporaries. > > you have ever heard a wrong note in a performance of a piece by Berio, > Stockhausen, or Boulez. > > when you're feeling particularly prankish, you transpose Mozart arias > to locrian mode. > > you keep a notebook of useful diminutions. > > those "parasitic" dissonances make you queasy, especially when left > unresolved. > > you know the difference between a Courante and a Corrente. > > you have ever used the word "fortspinnung" in polite conversation. > > you feel cheated by evaded cadences. > > every now and then you like to kick back and play something in > hypophrygian mode. > > you abbreviate your shopping list using figured bass. > > you have ever told a joke that had this punchline: "because it was > POLYPHONIC!" > > you can not only identify any one of Bach's 371 Harmonized Chorales by > ear, but you also know on what page it appears in the Riemenschneider > edition and how many suspensions it has in the first seven bars. From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 14:57:09 -0500 From: David Buckley To: Trombone-L Subject: Hollywood Trombones Christmas Music. Message-ID: <38554F95.AFD19917@sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A friend of mine who shall be unnamed - sufficient to say he used to be a very good euphonium player and is now a very good brass band conductor- sent me a tape of the Hollywood Trombones. Said he found it when cleaning out his basement and that I would appreciate it more than him. Shows you the taste of conductors. Well I certainly am appreciating it as I write. Does anyone know who is playing on it? Truly great sounds and interesting arrangements. Dave Buckley. From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 13:54:57 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: sasthc@wnt.sas.com Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Sturgeon's Law, Harris, etc. Message-ID: <199912131956.NAA17285@ties.k12.mn.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >And while I'm tying in loose threads, it's at >the top of my funeral music list, but *only* if played on matched oversized >Bachs with original Thayer's, 6.5AL's, and lubricated with Trombotine and Evian >by players sponsored by Selmer who don't buzz during the service or warm down >on muted long "false trigger" tones afterwards. ;-) > HAHAHAHA The award for "most brilliant attempt to be all-inclusive" goes to Thomas Cox ! How is it we are all so witty and insightful this day? :) Mike At 02:04 PM 12/13/99 -0500, you wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: Dennis Clason [mailto:dclason@nmsu.edu] >Sent: Monday, December 13, 1999 12:43 PM >To: Trombones and related issues forum. >Subject: Re: the music thread > >> Assume Sturgeon's Law applies: Ninety percent of everything is crap. : ) >> Applying Sturgeon's prior to any piece of rap music and you conclude it's >> crap. Hmmmm. I feel a paper coming on ... > >> \MODE serious ON > >> I couldn't recognize good rap any more than I could recognize good Gamelan >> music from Bali. It's not in my cultural set. > > > >My $0.02: Sturgeon was an optimist... > >But seriously, I think Dennis is right on the mark here. Time has provided >a good, if not perfect, filter for eliminating the 90%+ of effluvia from the >formal music catalog. (...where "formal" is just my term for the mainstream >works of the musical periods from early barouque through late romantic, as a >substitite for the term "classical" music.) Conversely, popular music hasn't >benefitted from such a winnowing, at least not to an adequate extent. > >I also lack the cultural/experiential filters for rap and country that I have >developed for formal music, jazz, blues, and some other eclectic genres. >This is partly because of personal tastes, partly due to environmental >influences, and partly because of the effort involved in developing a new >set of filters - it's easier for me to conclude that ALL country music is bad >than to work at identifying the 10% (or less) that has some merit. > >For example, I enjoy listening to some of the turn of the century/tinpan alley >tunes from Charles K. Harris' contemporaries. (BTW, Harris also wrote "Girl >Shy" and "Hello Central, Connect Me to Heaven" - what's the prize? ;-) >My personal filter for such music is Leon Redbone - he's sorted out a few of >the best. Not that I would trade the lot of them for "St. Matthew's Passion." > >...which, incidentally, I ran across twice last week: performing the "O Sacred >Head" choral adaptation with the church chorus, and with our trombone ensemble >("Sackbut Lunch") as "Herzlich Thut Mich Verlangen", the Hassler chorale >that Bach "borrowed" for same. And while I'm tying in loose threads, it's at >the top of my funeral music list, but *only* if played on matched oversized >Bachs with original Thayer's, 6.5AL's, and lubricated with Trombotine and Evian >by players sponsored by Selmer who don't buzz during the service or warm down >on muted long "false trigger" tones afterwards. ;-) > >Thomas Cox > > > >FWIW, >Thomas Cox > From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:06:05 -0500 (EST) From: Mike Loewen To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: A Plea (was [Humor] ...) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I, for one, certainly appreciated the original post about Music Theory Geekism. However, I didn't need to see it two more times, when posters replying to it included the ENTIRE original message in their (short) replies. Please, folks, when replying to a message on a mailing list or in a newsgroup, only quote as much of the original message as is necessary for context. Mike Loewen The Dixie Lion Jazz Band mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 14:11:15 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: A Plea (was [Humor] ...) Message-ID: <199912132013.OAA19582@ties.k12.mn.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Please, folks, when replying to a message on a mailing list or in a >newsgroup, only quote as much of the original message as is necessary for >context. Point taken, Mike. Sorry. Mike Coyle From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 14:13:45 -0600 From: "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Sturgeon's Law, Harris, etc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dennis Clason wrote: > Subject: Re: the music thread > > > Assume Sturgeon's Law applies: Ninety percent of everything is crap. : ) > and Thomas Cox answered: > My $0.02: Sturgeon was an optimist... > > But seriously, I think Dennis is right on the mark here. Time has provided > a good, if not perfect, filter for eliminating the 90%+ of effluvia from > the > formal music catalog. --snip--Conversely, popular music hasn't > benefitted from such a winnowing, at least not to an adequate extent. > Actually, commercial popular music has been around for at least 200 years. Much of it has also been winnowed out. Radio seems to be a good rough measure. What's current is on the stations with large listenership that specialize in current pop music. What's a little older is on "classic rock" stations and the like. What's a little older still is on the "nostalgia" stations. When the generation of people for whom the music was current and popular are dead, what's still deemed worth listening to is heard only on classical music stations. As I say, that is a rough measure. I have heard excerpts from Rogers and Hammerstein musicals on classical stations as well as "nostalgia" stations. But on the other hand, where else will Stephen Foster's music be broadcast? > For example, I enjoy listening to some of the turn of the century/tinpan > alley > tunes from Charles K. Harris' contemporaries. (BTW, Harris also wrote > "Girl > Shy" and "Hello Central, Connect Me to Heaven" - what's the prize? ;-) > BRAVO! BRAVO!! BRAVO!!! (That's all the prize I can afford.) At least 25 years ago, Dover published an anthology called "Favorite Songs of the Nineties", meaning 1890s, of course. I think it may still be in print. That's proof enough that some people still enjoy that music. (My own copy is showing signs of heavy use!) The odd thing now is that those songs are just as much an acquired taste as what Tom called "formal music". But I doubt if anyone who enjoys it considers even the finest examples to be comparable to the best "formal music". After all, who but lovers of "formal music" ever buy Dover scores? BTW, I hate rock and have hated it since I first heard Elvis Presley when I was in fourth grade. But I recall hearing more than one rock fan bemoan the commercialization of rock music and complain how hard it is to find really, good, creative music. Thus, even within the narrow limits of one style, some fans recognize the difference between excellence and mediocrity. ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ David Guion, Cataloger John Marshall Law School 315 S. Plymouth Ct. Chicago, IL 60604 Voice: (312) 427-2737 x 552 Fax; (312) 427-8307 "Outside of a dog, books are a man's best friend; inside of a dog, it's too dark to read"--Groucho Marx ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 14:27:32 -0600 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Sturgeon's Law, Harris, etc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dave wrote: > BTW, I hate rock and have hated it since I first heard Elvis Presley when > I > was in fourth grade. But I recall hearing more than one rock fan bemoan > the > commercialization of rock music and complain how hard it is to find > really, > good, creative music. Thus, even within the narrow limits of one style, > some > fans recognize the difference between excellence and mediocrity. > You will really get a hoot out of this. I was discussing RAP with my engineering Co-op trying to determine what "good RAP" is. He started his response with this statement: "Well, good RAP, as opposed to the RAP that is popular . . ." He was a bit taken back when I burst out laughing. I just said, "Oh my, a RAP snob. Now I have seen everything." I then explained the recent "festivities" on the Trombone-L. After we both got a good chuckle out of this, he proceeded to explain the complex rhythmic patterns and voice modulation that go into "good" RAP. I thought it interesting, but I am not in a big hurry to go out an buy some Puff Daddy or Ice-T recordings. Ken Dowdy From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 14:51:04 -0600 (CST) From: hal-starkey@webtv.net (Hal Starkey) To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Hollywood Trombones Christmas Music. Message-ID: <14489-38555C38-14271@storefull-172.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ÊDavid Buckey wrote:Ê A friend of mine who shall be unnamed - sufficient to say he used to be a very good euphonium player and is now a very good brass band conductor- sent me a tape of the Hollywood Trombones. Said he found it when cleaning out his basement and that I would appreciate it more than him. Shows you the taste of conductors. Well I certainly am appreciating it as I write. Does anyone know who is playing on it? Truly great sounds and interesting arrangements. Dave Buckley. ________________________ Hi Dave- Your right, this is great Christmas music! The musicians on the recording are: tenor trombones: Randy Aldcroft Bill Booth Ernie Carlson Alan Kaplan Charlie Loper Roy Main Dick Nash Ira Nepus Bob Payne Tommy Pederson Jim Sawyer Bill Tole Chauncey Welsch bass trombones: Alan Johnson Morris Repass Jeff Reynolds Bob Sanders Phil Teele Don Waldrop drums & percussion: Mark Stevens bass: Harvey Newmark keyboard: Bob Florence Dave, if you want any info on the soloists & arrangers let me know. BTW if anyone knows if any arrangements from this album are available I'd be interested. "Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas" HMA-CD87901. Hal From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 13:52:36 MST From: Dennis Clason To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Hollywood Trombones Christmas Music. Message-ID: <199912132052.NAA119206@nestor.NMSU.Edu> Addressed to: davebuckley@sympatico.ca trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu ** Reply to note from David Buckley 12/13/99 2:57pm -0500 > Shows you the taste of conductors. I prefer young conductor, flambe'd to about medium rare ... The old ones are too tough to be useful for much. Some recommend stewing or fricassee, but I don't like the extremely gamy taste. Some of my friends like Young Conductor Tartare, but I think the risk of food poisoning is way too high to enjoy that dish. Oh ... you meant a possessive of? Never mind. : ) > Well I certainly am appreciating it as I write. Does anyone know who is > playing on it? Truly great sounds and interesting arrangements. The arrangements are all Tommy Pederson (requiescat in pacem), some are commercially available. IMHO, they are MUCH better than the Comstock arrangements. The players are the usual LA suspects: those who hung out in and around Hoyt Bohannon's garage. Dick Nash, Tommy, Phil Teele, Hoyt Bohannon, etc. I've never seen a break out of who played what on that album. Dennis -- Dennis L. Clason email: dclason@nmsu.edu Department of Economics / University Statistics Center New Mexico State University Las Cruces, New Mexico USA From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:59:46 PST From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Sturgeon's Law, Harris, etc. Message-ID: <19991213205946.12742.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > > " He was a bit taken back when I burst out laughing. I >just said, "Oh my, a RAP snob. Now I have seen everything." Out here, in the San Francisco Bay area, we had a local all rap station, for a while. I think that call letters were KRAP? DanP ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:02:20 -0600 From: Stephen Parsons To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: TA Available Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1267003540==_ma============" PalatinoDear Trombonists: Below is a description of graduate assistantships available for Fall 2000 at Illinois State University. If you are interested in applying, please contact me. Steve Parsons Graduate Assistantships and Tuition Waivers for Trombonists at Illinois State University Duties will be selected from the following: * Instruction of studio overload/instruction of studio during faculty tours * Assist with Trombone Choir and Master Class * Coach student chamber ensembles * Perform with the Graduate Brass Quintet * Perform with Illinois State University student ensembles * Positions in Band, Theory, Music Education and Music Technology Stipend: Graduate Assistants and Tuition Waivers receive a full waiver of tuition, worth up to $4,750. for Illinois students and $11,486. for out-of state students. Graduate Assistants also receive an annual stipend up to $4,500. Additional awards up to $4,000.00 may be available through graduate work study. The two year Assistantship pays the tuition and stipend amount of $27,000.00 for out of state students without graduate work study. Graduate work study can increase this amount. Appointment: August 2000. The assistantship is renewable. Degree Programs: Illinois State University offers Master of Music degrees in Performance, Conducting, Theory/Composition, Music Therapy and Music Education. Admission: Admission to the Graduate School is required for consideration. Contact the Department of Music for applications at (309)438-7631. Early application is advised. For an online application, visit : http://orathost.cfa.ilstu.edu/music/ Procedures: Applicants must audition in person. To schedule an audition, contact: Dr. Stephen B. Parsons, Professor of Trombone, 5660 Music Department, Illinois State University, Normal, IL, 61790-5660, (309)438-5260. Email: sbpars@ilstu.edu Deadline for Application is March 1, 2000. Studio: The Trombone Studio is extremely active and diverse. In addition to the Trombone Choir and other ensemble activities, ISU students host an annual trombone workshop featuring prominent trombone artists. Visit our website at: http://www.orat.ilstu.edu/music/faculty/parsons/index.html Department: The Department of Music, a member-institution of NASM, enrolls approximately 325 undergraduate and graduate students and has 40 full-time faculty. Illinois State is an affirmative action/equal opportunity employer. University: Illinois State University is located midway between Chicago and St. Louis in Bloomington/Normal, Illinois, twin cities with a population of approximately 100,000. The University enrolls 20,000 students. The twin cities support a professional symphony, two professional theaters, a ballet society, a professional choral ensemble, community band, and several excellent art galleries. For more information, visit: http://www.ilstu.edu/ Stephen Parsons Assistant Professor of Trombone College of Fine Arts Box 5660 Illinois State University Normal IL 61790-5660 (309)438-5260 Email: sbpars@oratmail.cfa.ilstu.edu http://www.orat.ilstu.edu/music/faculty/parsons/index.html From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 13:05:28 PST From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: This Whole Music Thing Message-ID: <19991213210528.21725.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed OK, OK. I lied about the all rap radio station. But it did occur to me that there might just be more rap fans on this list serve if they used trombones, as backup. DanP ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:11:08 -0500 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL To: ealewis@indiana.edu, burger2go@compuserve.com Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: trombone-tennis elbow (REALLY longwinded) Message-ID: <21E592FA8BA7D311B5B100062B001FE2082E0B@LEE2> One thing for sure, once you've got trombone elbow, it's too late to prevent it, tautologically speaking. Once it hurts, it not only hurts to play, it hurts to do the exercise that might prevent it. So though it may seem obvious, it should still be said: the time to do some preventive exercise is when it doesn't hurt. Not just your elbow, but your lower back, your wrists, etc. Any ache can take the joy out of playing - or end your career. I also believe that the set of athletes largely does not intersect with the set of trombone players. You don't have time to do both well, and being perfectionistic by nature, many trombone players will ignore sports and exercise, and know very little about them. So a little critical reading is in order before starting, and maybe some advice if you can find a qualified person. (There is more bad advice than good out there, even by people supposedly with credentials.) There are benefits to exercise (and generally healthy habits) that become more important as we age. gotta go practice, er, maybe lift some weights. Nah. First a Guinness. Oops, wrong thread. tim richardson > -----Original Message----- > From: Beth Lewis [SMTP:ealewis@indiana.edu] > Sent: Monday, December 13, 1999 3:23 AM > To: Eric Burger > Cc: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: RE: trombone-tennis elbow (REALLY longwinded) > > That's the best explanation of right arm tendonitis in trombone players > I've seen! Do you think that how loose the wrist is could have anything > to do with right arm tendonitis? It seems logical to me that with a loose > wrist ('tossing the slide' as my teacher so aptly puts it) the stress > from the sudden stops would be more on the epicondyli (sp?) (that's a > fancy name for where the forearm tendons attach to either side of the > elbow), whereas playing with a stiff (not necessarily tense) wrist would > put nearly all the stress on the biceps/triceps (which are used in playing > with a loose wrist, but not as much). The angle at which to hold the right > wrist (facing toward yourself, sideways, a combination of the two...) > throw in whole other set of variables...Anyway, taking your thoughts into > consideration, maybe it would be better for me to put William Tell (and > similar endeavors) off until I'm well over my tendonitis. > > thanks, > Beth > On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Eric Burger wrote: > > > Good comments! I once struggled with the same problem from playing > scales too fast for two hours daily (stupid military band thing...) The > irritation comes not from the movement, but from the stopping. When you > throw the slide out quickly, then bring it to an abrupt stop, it stretches > the tendon and causes the irritation. With tennis players, they work on > the follow through, so they are not stopping the racquet with all the > torque being absorbed by the elbow. If you give a thought to your slide > technique, you may find that you are throwing the slide too hard. However, > antiinflamitories (aspirin, motrin) do help, because the healing won't > take play as quick when the tendon is inflamed. Rest is very important. > And try this stretch: hold your left arm with your elbow level with you > shoulder, then take your left hand and move it to your armpit (left). You > should find that this will stretch that tendon. Gently do this five + time > a day for twenty seconds... > > Eric > > > > ---------- > > From: Beth Lewis[SMTP:ealewis@indiana.edu] > > Sent: Saturday, December 11, 1999 3:46 PM > > To: John and Robin Renegar > > Cc: Trombones and related issues forum. > > Subject: Re: trombone-tennis elbow (REALLY longwinded) > > > > > > Have you seen a doctor and physical therapist? If not, you should do > this > > ASAP! Elbow straps and antiflammatories may make you feel better, but > > they will not take care of the problem. Seeking qualified medical help > and > > following their advice concerning excercizes, cutting back on playing > time > > and other aggravations is about the only way to go if you're serious > about > > getting over this. All of the physical therapists I've seen > > heavily stress doing the prescribed exercizes regularly. You have to > > build up the weakened muscles/tendons. This could take months or > longer, > > but you'll be glad when you can play as much as you want to again. > > Another important thing to remember: if it hurts, DON'T DO IT. If that > > means not playing at all for a while, not using the computer, not > opening > > windows (etc.), that's what you gotta do. Our bodies are very good at > > letting us know when the strain we put upon ourselves is too much, and > you > > should not ignore it. There are no over-night cures, but through the > help > > of physical therapy and conscientious use (rest) of the affected arm, > you > > may be able to get over the injury within months (which is better than > not > > playing any more for the rest of your life, right?) > > > > Of course there are ways to lessen the strain of playing _slightly_ by > > taking breaks every few min., playing a lighter instrument, adding a > > counterweight to improve balance, etc., but with lifting the instrument > > "quite painful" for you, the best thing for you right now is to NOT pick > > up a trombone (or pick it up as little as possible if your livelihood or > > school is involved) and get yourself an appointment with a sports > medicine > > doctor, who will be able to tell what the problem is (could be something > > other than radial epicondylitis/tennis elbow) and refer you to a good > > physical therapist. A doctor who specializes in performing arts > medicine > > would be even better, but those of us not living near very large cities > > don't have that luxury. Anyway, from my experiences, the doctor will > > refer you to treatment, meaning she/he will only diagnose the problem, > > prescribe a different anti-inflammatory, and tell you to see a > > PT, so it's really important to keep up with the physical therapy. For > > problems as severe as you describe, you'll probably need something more > > drastic than just changing the way you play (posture, grip, etc). Though > > this certainly helps, you have to remember that you have an injury, and > in > > order to let it heal, you must give it rest, exercize to build back up > > (when the time is right),and when you do start playing, you must be a > lot > > more careful--if something hurts, put the horn down for a while (it's > that > > simple). > > > > Other things that help and PT will probably have you do: Ice > > (with a papertowel or rag to protect your skin) for 20 min. as many > times > > as you can (I was told 6-7X a day at first) especially after doing > > something strenuous like practicing or the prescribed exercizes. Using > an > > ace bandage (wrapped loosely) so that you don't have to hold an ice bag > to > > your arm for 20 min. helps. Stretching-- It's hard to describe these in > > this format, but your doctor/PT will take care of this. You should > always > > stretch before/after practicing, and every 3 hours or so during the day. > > Aerobic exercize is pretty important too, so stay active. > > > > You probably have scar tissue, and a treatment that you could ask about > > would be Graston (similar, but more intense, to soft tissue > mobilization, > > massage, etc., and ALWAYS coupled with progressive exercizes and ice). > > It's not for the faint of heart though. Anyway, the absolute best thing > > you could do right now is seek medical advice and play as little as you > > can get away with (why keep injuring yourself?). > > > dThere's a really good periodical that has tendonitis-related articles > and > > studies in a few past issues: Medical Problems of Performing Artists. > If > > interested, most music libraries should have it. > > > > Best of Luck, > > Beth Lewis > > > > On Sat, 11 Dec 1999, John and Robin Renegar wrote: > > > > > I've been struggling for the past 2 or 3 months with very painful > > > tendonitis in the left elbow. I've been using a tennis elbow strap, > which > > > helps, and heavy doses of Motrin. It is still quite painful to lift > the > > > horn, etc. Anyone found a cure for this? > > > > > > John Renegar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:50:00 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Michael Davis Quintet+electronics Message-ID: <199912132151.QAA16133@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Lots of back and forth here about sound reinforcement. Almost nothing about trombone playing. 1-These two guys (Michael Davis and Bill reichenbach) can both flat out PLAY. 2-So can the rhythm section w/which they recorded; I'll bet their rhythm sections in concert could too. 3-They've both decided not to FORCE the trombone, but rather to play fairly quietly (notice I did NOT say "weakly") in order to get around their respective horns in the manner they wish as improvisers. 4-BEING trombonists, it's five TIMES as hard for them to make money as soloists than equally gifted tenor players or what have you, and the fact that they managed to make a good, creative CD and get booked at ALL is a testament to both their abilities as players and Michael's ability, particularly, to do the things that have to be done to take care of extra-musical business. 5-Given the money trombone/thing plus the fairly quiet playing thing and adding TO that the fact that the trombone is an absolute BEAR to amplify well and they were using an amplified rhythm section (a perfectly valid stylistic choice...and Pattitucci !!!)...of COURSE they had sound problems. DUH !!! Don't complain about it...try to UNDERSTAND a little, por favor... Gracias... Senor Sabutin P.S. If, as more than a few posts suggested, they were to choose to play completely acoustically...one even suggested they LEARN to play acoustically, as if they couldn't (I'D LOVE to hear THAT poster in a similar situation...)...how do you think that would have limited their potential choice of venues? The only way for a jazz group to really make any money touring is on the festival circuit, playing for 5000 people in a Roman amphitheater or some other such ridiculous situation...what chance would two unmiked trombones and an unamplified rhythm section have in THAT kind of venue? I personally prefer to play as unamplified as possible, and have tailored my playing to some degree in that direction...but DAMN, what do these guys have to do to avoid the flak ??? At least they're OUT there PLAYING... From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:15:32 -0600 From: "Bob Hall" To: "Trombone Mailing List" Subject: Various ramblings on recent topics Message-ID: <00fe01bf45b7$941ea030$dda11282@ejp4t.msstate.eddu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00FB_01BF4585.47EF3850"
Reading many of the posts on recent topics, with the exception of a few posts that focus on "name calling", has been interesting and I've enjoyed the diversity of opinions.  Although I am not a professional musician, and the breadth of my musical knowledge is limited, I thought I'd interject my thoughts.  They may have no significance to those who are more musically "adept," but for the sake of expressing my point of view, here they are.
 
On the worth of different varieties of music:
    I enjoy many types of music.  I like some jazz, some blues, some classical, some rock, some sacred and even some country.  I have yet to hear a "rap song" that I liked, and I've often questioned (personally) if rap should actually be classified as music, yet I have no doubt that many people find some enjoyment listening to it.  Does this mean that I find all classifications of music equal in terms of enjoyment and/or technique used to create it?  Certainly not.  Do I find some rocks songs more enjoyable than some classical pieces?  Definately yes.  Why?  Well, the answer to that is a bit sketchy, at best.
    I believe that music is a form of expression, much as a painting.  When I create something, whether it be music or a drawing, I am expressing myself.  I believe that the definition of art is not what is actually created, but the act of creating.  Of course, many will dispute this, but that's what I think.  A drawing of an alien by by 11-year-old son may not be appreciated by anyone but me, but he is expressing himself, and that, my friends, is art.  He may not have a great knowledge of artistic tools and techniques, and he may not be considered a "great artist," but the imagination and emotion he expresses is as much a form of art as anything Picasso created.  What am I trying to say?  Well, I enjoy listening to music and looking at drawings that are filled with emotion and imagination.  If I happen to be knowledgable about the techniques and skills needed to perform this expression, I may have a greater appreciation of the quality of skills utilized, yet the amount of emotion and imagination weighs much greater in my overall impression.  I'm sure many of us have heard music performed with great accuracy, but felt that something was missing.  I, for one, believe I know what that is.  I don't believe you have to have an extensive knowledge of music to appreciate and enjoy it.  Nor do I think that you have to be an architect to appreciate a beautiful facade or an engineer to appreciate a well built and sturdy bridge.
 
On quotes, misquotes, name calling, etc.
    I'm no psychologist (apparently there are a lot of things that "I'm not"), but I think that there are two reasons why we see these unfortunate incidents. 
        1)    The first is that some people feel they are protected by the "virtual" shield of the monitor.  They feel more powerful.  These are probably the same people who feel insecure in the real world.
        2)    It's easy to forget that there are real people with real feelings that read these messages.
 
With this in mind, maybe it will be easier to ignore the insults.  Just try to remember that there are real people out there reading these post, and try to follow the "Golden Rule"....
 
Bob Hall
 
 
Favorite quote:
 
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world,"  Ghandi.
 From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 14:26:23 -0800 From: "Rodney Ellard" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: the music thread - Rap Message-ID: <008901bf45b9$18667f60$20ef94d1@rod> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Disclaimer: I'm a middle-aged WASP (well, not technically Anglo-Saxon, but let's not quibble.) Good Rap v. Bad Rap? Can a piece of music be "good" if it starts with the lyrics "Yo Bitch!" ? Not exactly Kyrie Eleison is it. But still, within the confines of the rap style, yes, of course, rap music can be good. I don't often listen to it, but occasionally I'll hear something clever ("Pretty Fly for a White Boy seemed pretty clever - at least as clever in its own way as much of Leroy Anderson). The compositional rules are probably as rigid as strict serialism and probably produces as much good music. (Although a better argument might be to compare it to minimalism.) And I think it is firmly within my cultural context, i.e. North American popular music, now that it has crossed over into the mainstream and young white men can cruise around in their cars and fantasize about shooting their girlfriend, or the police or themselves... Much of this thread seems to revolve around the ages-long philosophical argument about what is beauty. Then it devolves into an argument about who can recognize it and who can't. It's ultimately pointless, except to suggest to another, "give this a listen. I like it. I think you will too". And, of course, one should always be able to say, Thank you but I'd rather not. Not necessarily the most open minded response, but, we're not discussing open mindedness, are we? Oh, by the way, Chris W., Joseph Harder passed away today. Rod From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:09:31 EST From: BassBonist@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Late Plug: Free LA Area Trombone Concert Message-ID: <0.954cb018.2586d6ab@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Listers, All within driving distance are invited to attend the Moravian Trombone Choir Advent/Christmas Concert tonight, Monday, December 13, at 7:30 PM. Admission is free. See link at the bottom of this message for the MTC website which includes a map. Hope to see you there. Tell a friend! Merry Christmas. Matt Varho The Moravian Trombone Choir of Downey's Home Page From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:15:27 EST From: Andrewsjon@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: the music thread Message-ID: <0.1c7eb39b.2586d80f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/13/99 4:29:09 PM Central Standard Time, ellard@sprint.ca writes: << Much of this thread seems to revolve around the ages-long philosophical argument about what is beauty. Then it devolves into an argument about who can recognize it and who can't. It's ultimately pointless, except to suggest to another, "give this a listen. I like it. I think you will too". And, of course, one should always be able to say, Thank you but I'd rather not. Not necessarily the most open minded response, but, we're not discussing open mindedness, are we? >> Thank you. In one paragraph you have summarized the disagreement that has existed within this discussion. You have asked the question: "We're not discussing open mindedness, are we?" I just assumed that all who have contributed to this discussion were all open minded, intelligent individuals. It is obvious, that has not been the case. There are those that defend the position that only what has existed in the past is good. They dig their trenches and life passes them by. Jon From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:29:49 -0500 (EST) From: Beth Lewis To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: see ya in '00 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This is just to let anyone interested know that I will be unsubscribed (postponed to be exact) from the list for the holidays ('til 1/8) as of tonight. I sincerely hope that you all have a wonderful Christmas (if that's part of your beliefs) and are able to regain some peace of mind during this hectic season. Hoping to hear from you all again in 2000, Beth Lewis From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:29:58 -0500 From: Peter Collins & Sara Wilbur To: stevencarr@home.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Sterling Silver Bells & bass trombones Message-ID: <38558176.1DC908AF@total.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Steve and list, Yes, I used to own a Bach 50B with a silver bell. Mind you, the bell was part of extensive custom work done by Ted Griffith when he first owned the horn. I can't honestly say what difference the silver made to the bell as I couldn't do a fair comparison with anything else. Nobody else was playing a horn quite like mine when I had it and I only had one other bell and that was a 10.5 inch yellow brass bell. Still not a fair comparison. I know this doesn't help you very much but, yes, there are people out there who do have silver bells (how appropriate for the time of year). I have since sold my horn to a friend in Vancouver and I think he is not on the list--he plays tuba--so you likely won't get a response from him. Come to think of it, as I read the subject of this email the bell that I had was silver plated yellow brass. What is the difference between this and sterling silver? I would also be curious to hear from our metallurgist friends on the list and those that have experience playing several different kind of bells. (I have always been partial to yellow brass.) Keep us posted. Cheers Peter Collins > stevencarr wrote: > > Has anyone seen/played a Silver belled bass trombone? Perhaps I've > just lead a sheltered life but I can't recall seeing one. > My curiosity began recently when I acquired a 1955 vintage King 2b > SilverSonic that I really enjoying playing. However I am primarily a > bass trombonist. > I just checked the UMI web site, silver bells are offered on all sizes > up to the .547 bores but not on the .562s. Perhaps, one of the list > members that have had the opportunity to help design horns know of the > reason. > > As usually, rumor and hearsay are admissible ;-) > > Steve C > From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:35:44 EST From: Yoda505@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: The effect of music Message-ID: <0.4de05a6d.2586dcd0@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List members, I am currently doing a service learning project for school. It involves writing a research paper. I have chosen the topic of how musical experience affects a person in other school classes, and in the world period. I was wondering if any of you had any idea on the subject. It would help me a lot. You can reply either through the list or to my personal e-mail, yoda505@aol.com. Thanks, P.S. I just picked up Wynton Marsalis's cd: Live at the Village Vanguard. It is great. I reccomend it big time. +--------------------------------------+ | David Getsfrid | | 1st Chair Trombone | | Covington Middle School | +--------------------------------------+ "Your life is your own composition; Only you control when you get out of those minor parts."- Me From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:26:07 -0600 From: paulel9@bellsouth.net To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Holiday Concert-Bartlett Community Concert Band Message-ID: <3855808F.B626FEB6@bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For your information, here's the program for our holiday concert, performed last Saturday: THE MOST WONDERFUL TIME OF THE YEAR - ARR. JOHN MOSS A CELEBRATION OF CAROLS - ARR. CHARLES CARTER CHRISTMAS FAVORITES - ARR. JAMES SWEARINGEN JINGLE BELLS FANTASY - ARR. JOHN WASSON A CHARLIE BROWN CHRISTMAS - ARR. CARL STROMMEN SLEIGH RIDE - LEROY ANDERSON 'TWAS THE NIGHT BEFORE CHRISTMAS - NEWELL H. LONG (This year's guest narrator, Ron Jewell) WHITE CHRISTMAS - IRVING BERLIN (Yeah---it's another cheesy Christmas program...but the crowd loves it!) The first half of the concert featured the Bartlett Area Chorus. HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! -- E. PAUL LUKAS TROMBONIST, PUBLICIST BARTLETT COMMUNITY CONCERT BAND MEMPHIS, TENNESSEE USA PAULEL9@BELLSOUTH.NET From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:38:43 -0800 (PST) From: Bodie Pfost To: Mike Coyle Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Trombone euphemisms Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII My favorite would have to be one that I heard last year from a vocal professor. You have to say it to get the right affect: BBb/Eb Contrabass Trombuba -- Bodie Pfost p.s. I think he was trying to describe a cimbasso. From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:40:07 -0600 From: "Tom Izzo" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Hollywood Trombones Christmas Music. Message-ID: <007a01bf45cb$c5b7d4e0$e075dfd0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave, > David Buckey wrote: > A friend of mine who shall be unnamed - sufficient to say he used to be > a very good euphonium player and is now a very good brass band > conductor- sent me a tape of the Hollywood Trombones. Said he found it > when cleaning out his basement and that I would appreciate it more than > him. Shows you the taste of conductors. > Well I certainly am appreciating it as I write. Does anyone know who is > playing on it? Truly great sounds and interesting arrangements. > Dave Buckley. > _____________ Ah huh! A bootlegged copy eh? > tenor > trombones: Randy Aldcroft > Bill Booth > Ernie Carlson > Alan Kaplan > Charlie Loper > Roy Main > Dick Nash > Ira Nepus > Bob Payne > Tommy Pederson > Jim Sawyer > Bill Tole > Chauncey Welsch > bass > trombones: Alan Johnson > Morris Repass > Jeff Reynolds > Bob Sanders > Phil Teele > Don Waldrop Phil & Don also played Contrabass on this recording. > drums & > percussion: Mark Stevens > bass: Harvey Newmark > keyboard: Bob Florence > > Dave, if you want any info on the soloists & arrangers let me know. > > BTW if anyone knows if any arrangements from this album are available > I'd be interested. "Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas" > HMA-CD87901. > And the CD re-release is on Summit Records CDC 1001 entitled "The Hollywood Trombones" Tom > Hal > > From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 01:13:14 +0100 From: Anders Carlsson To: "Rodney Ellard" Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: the music thread - Rap Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "Rodney Ellard" skriver: >Can a piece of music be "good" if it starts with the lyrics "Yo Bitch!" >? >Not exactly Kyrie Eleison is it. Judging music by refering to lyrics is somthing I«ve never understood. /Anders Carlsson From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 19:19:01 EST From: Andrewsjon@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: the music thread - Rap Message-ID: <0.9c1e8fe9.2586e6f5@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In a message dated 12/13/99 6:14:24 PM Central Standard Time, Anders.Carlsson@gfs.gu.se writes: << Judging music by refering to lyrics is somthing I´ve never understood. >> You need to listen once again. There is more to "rap" than "lyrics." Jon From ???@??? Tue Dec 14 07:43:39 1999 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:26:30 -0800 From: Sequoia Middle School To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: New thread? Message-ID: <38558EB6.6F8DAD27@bcsd.k12.ca.us> MIM