TROMBONE-L Digest 1537 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Snobbism/This Whole Music Thing by Feneley 2) Robert King Obituary by Douglas Yeo 3) Re: the music thread by daboneman 4) Re: Victor Ewald by Douglas Yeo 5) Re: the music thread by "Kenneth Dowdy" 6) Re: Robert King Obituary by "Tom Izzo" 7) Re: This Whole Music Thing by "Robert Holland" 8) Re: This Whole Music Thing by Mike Coyle 9) Re: This Whole Music Thing by Mike Coyle 10) Re: Warm Down...... by Wayne Dyess 11) Bill Reichenbach -- please write me. by Wayne Dyess 12) Ralph Sauer's response to recent posts. by "Dean Hubbard" 13) Re: This Whole Music Thing by "Robert Holland" 14) Re: Ralph Sauer's response to recent posts. by "Alex C." 15) Fwd: Ralph Sauer's response to recent posts. by EMRose79@aol.com 16) Re: Ralph Sauer's response to recent posts. by Beth Lewis 17) Re: This Whole Music Thing by Mike Coyle 18) Re: Ralph Sauer's response to recent posts. by "Dean Hubbard" 19) Re: This Whole Music Thing by "Kenneth Dowdy" 20) Re: Ralph Sauer's response to recent posts. by Chris Tune 21) RE: Ralph Sauer's response to recent posts. by "Jim O'Briant" 22) Re: Conn 88HTO vs Conn 88HO by Chris Tune 23) Re: Ralph Sauer's response to recent posts. by Chris Tune 24) Re: the music thread by Anders Carlsson 25) Ralph Sauer by ButteBlack@aol.com 26) Re: Ralph Sauer by ToElkMusic@cs.com 27) Re: Ralph Sauer by BassBonist@aol.com 28) Commercialism (was Re: Ralph Sauer) by Beth Lewis 29) Re: the music thread by Feneley 30) Re: Commercialism (was Re: Ralph Sauer) by Posaune9@aol.com 31) Re: Commercialism (was Re: Ralph Sauer) by BassBonist@aol.com 32) Commercialism by Steve Butterworth 33) Looking for Bach bass trombone bell section by Joestanko@aol.com 34) Re: Looking for Bach bass trombone bell section by Peter Soukup 35) Re: Commercialism (has nothing to do w/Ralph Sauer) by Beth Lewis 36) Midwest B&O Clinic by Steve Butterworth 37) Re: Commercialism (has nothing to do w/Ralph Sauer) by Galen Zinn 38) Radical Extremist Snobbism by Andrewsjon@aol.com 39) Re: Warm Down...... by "Daniel Pliskin" 40) the nasty "music thing" thread by Mike Coyle 41) Re: Ralph Sauer's response to recent posts. by "Daniel Pliskin" 42) RE: trombone-tennis elbow (REALLY longwinded) by Eric Burger 43) RE: trombone-tennis elbow (REALLY longwinded) by Beth Lewis From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:10:59 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 08:31:39 -0500 From: Feneley To: TBone List Subject: Re: Snobbism/This Whole Music Thing Message-ID: <3853A3BB.C775C115@glccomputers.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This has obviously been of real interest to a lot of people. After the message from Doug Yeo, I've found the rest, sorry, boring. But that IS my choice. I DO have very specific listening choices and extremely strong opinions about music and what some others call music. My listening has purpose. My listening horizons can be extended rarely, if ever, through argument (especially with a stranger). I, like Thoreau, believe that what I like is likeable by all mankind (but know better). Other than this short statement, if you don't like what I like, don't come to my house. Ken From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:10:59 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 09:17:30 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Robert King Obituary Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" The Boston Globe carried a short obituary of Robert King on Friday who died on December 2 which follows: ===== KING - of North Easton, Massachusetts. December 2, Robert Davis King. Survived by his wife Sally (Currier), daughters Judith of Farmington, CT and Nancy of Cambridge, MA, and grandson William of Amherst, MA. No services will be held. Remembrances may be sent to : Easton Historical Society, North Easton, MA 02356; or Tanglewood Music Center, Symphony Hall, Boston, MA 02115. ===== It was characteristic of Bob King to not want a memorial service or funeral. While full of strong opinions and he could talk to you for HOURS about any subject which interested him passionately (including the history of the Boston Symphony, the euphonium, music publishing, American music and much more), he was a man who was very modest as well. His endowment of the principal trumpet chair of the Boston Symphony Orchestra was not named in his honor, but he wished it be named for Roger Voisin, long time principal trumpet of the BSO. It strikes me that he just didn't want any "fuss" when he died, but of course many of us who are left behind do want to "fuss" and remember our friend. The King family wanted me to pass on their thanks to so many of you who sent a card or letter to Bob and his family in the days before he died. The letters and cards, which came from all over the world, were a great encouragement to all of the Kings and Bob was bouyed by them. There is often a feeling that you want to "do something" when someone who has touched your life passes away. If you feel so inclined, and your life was impacted by Bob King in one way or another (can any of us say we have never played one of his editions? I think not!) may I encourage you, his many musician "friends," to contribute to a lasting tribute to him in the form of a donation in his memory to the Tanglewood Music Center, the summer training program of the Boston Symphony Orchestra. The King family would like to see a student scholarship endowed in his name which will make it possible for another young player to take part in the the Tanglewood Music Center program (which is free to those who participate in it thanks to the generosity of many donors over the years). I can think of no more fitting tribute to Bob than to know that a brass player from the "next generation" will participate in the Tanglewood program for a summer thanks to the generosity of those who were touched by him. If you do so, please indicate that your contribution is in memory of Robert King. For those who are historically rather than musically minded, his wish that donations be made to the Easton Historical Society would be appreciated, as Bob had an intense interest in the history of New England. And, if anyone would like to post this note on other email lists to get the word out, that would be greatly appreciated (if you do so, please post a note to that effect on the trombone-l so duplicate postings do not occur). -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:10:59 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 08:34:19 -0600 From: daboneman To: angie@cybersolvers.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: the music thread Message-ID: <3853B26B.BE2F1D36@mciworld.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I have to reply to this thread again. Like I said before, ALL forms of music (and yes, rap is a form of music) has its worth. All of us on this list can agree with me on this: There is good and bad in all forms of music. There are good quality pop artists (i.e.: Chicago, Billy Joel, Mariah Carey, Gloria Estefan, etc.); country artists (i.e.: Chet Atkins, Garth Brooks, Roy Clark, Alabama, etc.); rock artists (i.e.: Yes, Rush, etc.); I could go on and on. On the flip side of this there is a lot of low quality classical and jazz music out there as well. There is good and bad in every form. Some forms the percentages of the two fluctuate... but to say that all pop is crap, or all country is crap, etc. Is a very uneducated statement. Country is probably the best example of this. Us "elitest" musicians are quick to say that we hate country... but in fact most have never really sat down and LISTENED to it. There are some great musicians writing and playing behind these artists. Some of the artists are very good also. I would venture to say that a lot of the pop or country artists are better musicians than a percentage of us on this list (I know... the flames are coming). But we, as elitest musicians, must criticise because there is only one form of music and that is classical (people have included jazz... but this thread started with only classical... I know some elitest classical musicians that have said that jazz is a bastard form of music). All other forms, according to this elitest forum, are worthless junk. As a freelancer I have done my homework. I think that all would agree that in order to play a style of music you must first have that style in your head. Well a hard nosed "legit" player could not even hope to hang with a section in a big band because he/she would be so square the band leader would fire them after the first tune. The same is true of anything else. I make a lot of money playing what is called "Tejano" music. For those of you who have heard of Selena (they made a movie about her) that is what she performed. It is a cross of Tower of Power and a German polka (I know... what a strange combination). But it has its own style and it is extremely popular in the Hispanic community. I tuned my car radio to the spanish station and "studied up." There are some great musicians in this genre... but it is not exactly what I listen to... but I respect it. I guess that is what I have been getting at. We, as elitest musicians, wonder why the general public do not respect and listen to our perfect music.... Well it's because we do not respect what they, the peons, listen to. In order to gain respect you must in turn do the same. Mike is correct... there is a lot of crap being produced out there... but in ALL genres. There is also a lot of good stuff being produced in those same genres. You just have to have the open mind to listen. There are definately strong opinions on this subject... I'll go back to my original statement... You are doing yourselves a disservice by having such closed minds. There are a lot of great music makers out there that you will not open your ears to. I feel sorry for you. Dean McCarty freelance trombonist, Houston area From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:10:59 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 09:36:53 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Victor Ewald Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 12:36 AM -0500 12/11/99, Tbcwes@aol.com wrote: >Anyone have info on Victor Ewald? Several years ago, I was part of a brass quintet which gave a concert in Tokyo. The group consisted of Mark Gould (Principal, Metropolitan Opera), Alan Vizzuto (solo artist), trumpets; Marty Hackleman (Principal, Vancouver Sym), horn; Ian Bousfield (Principal, London Sym), trombone, and me. The concert promoter wanted us to introduce each number from the stage and discuss it a bit - a translator would convey our comments to the audience in Japanese. I spoke about the Dahl Music for Brass Instruments which opened the concert. We then moved to the Ewald Quintet 3. Mark Gould drew the straw for that one. He stood up, and in a perfectly straight face said: "Viktor Ewald was born in Pittsburgh and moved to Japan where he wrote 3 famous brass quintets." And he sat down. If you know Gould (and his rather twisted sense of humor) you can understand that he delivered the comment in complete deadpan, and the translator dutifully translated his comments as the audience of 1500 nodded as if they were learning something. My daughter, Linda, as well as Marty and Ian's girlfriends, were in the audience, absolutely doubled over in stitches and Bousfield had great difficulty composing himself so we could begin the piece, especially with Gould looking over with this innocent look, as if to say, "Hey, what's the matter with you, you got a problem widdat?" Moral of the story. Aw, you figure it out.... :-) -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:00 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 10:09:45 -0600 From: "Kenneth Dowdy" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: the music thread Message-ID: <002201bf44bb$50d6f0e0$1b1d0f3f@default> Dean, What a great post! You wrote (in part): There is good and bad in every form. Some forms the >percentages of the two fluctuate... but to say that all pop is crap, or all >country is crap, etc. Is a very uneducated statement. Country is probably the >best example of this. Us "elitest" musicians are quick to say that we hate >country... but in fact most have never really sat down and LISTENED to it. >There are some great musicians writing and playing behind these artists. Some >of the artists are very good also. I would venture to say that a lot of the >pop or country artists are better musicians than a percentage of us on this >list (I know... the flames are coming). No flames here! I am not a big fan of "Country Music", but I would be as shocked to find that someone would not be touched by Roy Orbison or Johnny Cash as some are shocked that I am not orgasmic over Bach. But we, as elitest musicians, must >criticise because there is only one form of music and that is classical (people >have included jazz... but this thread started with only classical... I know >some elitest classical musicians that have said that jazz is a bastard form of >music). All other forms, according to this elitest forum, are worthless junk. > >As a freelancer I have done my homework. I think that all would agree that in >order to play a style of music you must first have that style in your head. >Well a hard nosed "legit" player could not even hope to hang with a section in >a big band because he/she would be so square the band leader would fire them >after the first tune. Big Band music is another VERY overlooked music form on this forum. I consider the demise of this kind of music to be one of the greater tragidies of the 20th century. Even though I am "only" 38 years old, I cannot wait until 6:30 PM on Saturday night to get my weekly dose of Guy Lombardo. My wife and kids know to keep the TV clear at that time, because it will be a rough week if I miss Guy Lombardo. I guess if I had my choice to play in any band that I wanted, it would be a big band. I enjoy early music a lot, probably classical second, but I really don't enjoy the company of a lot of the people I have met in that style. It is strange, but I have met Classical snobs, Early Music snobs, Jazz snobs, and so on, but I have yet to meet a Big Band snob. (No, I am not saying that all of the others are snobs.) I like that! I like having fun at what I am doing, and seeing people participate in my fun. What could be more exiting than playing in a Dance Band and seeing people participate in your work rather than sitting there comatose waiting to be enlightened. > >I guess that is what I have been getting at. We, as elitest musicians, wonder >why the general public do not respect and listen to our perfect music.... Well >it's because we do not respect what they, the peons, listen to. In order to >gain respect you must in turn do the same. I have not read better words on this subject. Bravo!!!! Mike is correct... there is a lot >of crap being produced out there... but in ALL genres. There is also a lot of >good stuff being produced in those same genres. You just have to have the >open mind to listen. > >There are definately strong opinions on this subject... I'll go back to my >original statement... >You are doing yourselves a disservice by having such closed minds. There are a >lot of great music makers out there that you will not open your ears to. > >I feel sorry for you. Your sympathy is shared by me. Certainly, Classical Music contains great wealth and is an asset to our culture. But one thing that I have found in my short life is that often the greatest poverty can be found among the rich, and the greatest wealth among the poor. Ken Dowdy > >Dean McCarty >freelance trombonist, Houston area > > From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:00 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 12:34:24 -0600 From: "Tom Izzo" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Robert King Obituary Message-ID: <005001bf44cf$845a6960$0475dfd0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Doug & all, > Thanks for the post. > And, if anyone would like to post this note on other email lists to > get the word out, that would be greatly appreciated (if you do so, > please post a note to that effect on the trombone-l so duplicate > postings do not occur). > I have posted it to the Brass-L, this afternoon. Tom > From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:00 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 11:48:57 -0600 From: "Robert Holland" To: "Trb. List" Subject: Re: This Whole Music Thing Message-ID: <199912121649.4495000@Chicago5> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Ken Dowdy wrote: > I'll try not to open up this wound too badly again, but I would hope that > you realize that music is appreciated at different levels. I write pretty carefully and don't routinely disclaim all the potential counterarguments one could make. Nothing in my post suggested that music must be at only one level. Rather, that was what I responded to in your post. So yeah, music has all sorts of levels. One of the really interesting things about minimalism is how all the surface level feature can combine to create really interesting things at deeper levels. There's a style and rhetoric that goes beyond its supposed blankness. But that discussion is long and out of scope. > I would agree > that a musician (performer, arranger, composer, conductor) should be as > familiar with the piece as is possible. However, the vast majority of > personnel in contact with music are not musicians. In fact, the majority of > those paying musicians salaries are not musicians. A categorical division between professionals and lay persons? Most of that will happen all by itself and doesn't need a formalized separation. Besides, there are a lot of enthusiastic amateurs who would find that attitude among musicians very patronizing. > I think we are spoiled > somewhat in this age of recordings. Someone can write some far off into > left field music and just insist that we listen to it until we get it (or at > least are afraid to admit that we don't lest we be considered dense). > However, when you are performing the piece, you have one shot to make an > impression because the audience cannot rewind and listen to it again. In my > view, really good music makes that impression and implants the desire to > hear the piece again and again. No, you probably won't be able to FULLY > appreciate good music on the first pass, but it should not leave you yawning > either. I agree with this part -- but only to a degree. Someone already posted about the necessity of creating expectation in the audience. Copland called it "the long line," a sense of inevitability. I often refer to it as narrative. When music lacks a syntax or rhetoric that allows the listener to recognize important structural features, such as when the music is almost over, the uninterrupted flow of "stuff" going by fails to make a strong enough impression. I hear it all the time in new music. But this gets to be a philosophical question, too. > I'm afraid that as an "honest" appreciator of music, I am just > tired of people feeding me crap and telling me that it is my problem that I > didn't take the time to fully submerse myself in their product. That's very realistic, but it's also a matter of taste. Your crap might be my gem. (Gee, that sounds kinda funny, but you know what I mean...) I try to keep an open mind and sample new ideas in music, but if I don't like them, well, I ignore them. That's allowed. No one is forcing it upon us -- at least more than once -- and any sort of "it's your problem" gambit just doesn't wash. > I read > somewhere that more than 300 new classical CDs were issued in the last 12 > months. This is just classical, and does not even count any of the other > forms out there. There is just too much out there, and too much of it that > is REALLY GOOD, for me to spend too much time (and money) trying to > understand one particular piece. That is really all that I am saying, and > am myself quite flabbergasted that it is so difficult to understand. Your response made your position much more clear. Perhaps I quoted you too briefly. However, you still seem to be insisting somewhat dogmatically. I'm not at all concerned that your opinion is wrong. But a little generosity is called for -- both for other musicians with their own opinions, and for the concert-going public at whatever level of apprecitation and understanding they might be. It's a big world with a lot of colors, and seeing things in black and white diminished us all. Robert Holland Briar Music Press briar@chicagonet.net http://members.aol.com/EnsPub/briar.htm From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:00 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 12:26:04 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: This Whole Music Thing Message-ID: <199912121829.MAA15827@newton.pconline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In the interest of civility and meaningful discussion, I think I'll confine my posts to "which lube is best" and "do you think a 61/2 AL works in a .547 bore horn". :) M From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:00 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 12:36:41 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: This Whole Music Thing Message-ID: <199912121840.MAA16148@newton.pconline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Robert,Hats off! Once again I think you have submitted a very thoughful and intelligent post. You renew my faith that there are still many who can discuss music from a vantage point other than gross sentimentality. Thanks, Mike At 11:48 AM 12/12/99 , Robert wrote: >One of the really interesting things about minimalism is how all the >surface level feature can combine to create really interesting things at >deeper levels. There's a style and rhetoric that goes beyond its >supposed blankness. But that discussion is long and out of scope. > >> I would agree >> that a musician (performer, arranger, composer, conductor) should be as >> familiar with the piece as is possible. However, the vast majority of >> personnel in contact with music are not musicians. In fact, the majority of >> those paying musicians salaries are not musicians. > >A categorical division between professionals and lay persons? Most of >that will happen all by itself and doesn't need a formalized separation. >Besides, there are a lot of enthusiastic amateurs who would find that >attitude among musicians very patronizing. > >> I think we are spoiled >> somewhat in this age of recordings. Someone can write some far off into >> left field music and just insist that we listen to it until we get it (or at >> least are afraid to admit that we don't lest we be considered dense). >> However, when you are performing the piece, you have one shot to make an >> impression because the audience cannot rewind and listen to it again. In my >> view, really good music makes that impression and implants the desire to >> hear the piece again and again. No, you probably won't be able to FULLY >> appreciate good music on the first pass, but it should not leave you yawning >> either. > >I agree with this part -- but only to a degree. Someone already posted >about the necessity of creating expectation in the audience. Copland >called it "the long line," a sense of inevitability. I often refer to it >as narrative. When music lacks a syntax or rhetoric that allows the >listener to recognize important structural features, such as when the >music is almost over, the uninterrupted flow of "stuff" going by fails >to make a strong enough impression. I hear it all the time in new music. >But this gets to be a philosophical question, too. > >> I'm afraid that as an "honest" appreciator of music, I am just >> tired of people feeding me crap and telling me that it is my problem that I >> didn't take the time to fully submerse myself in their product. > >That's very realistic, but it's also a matter of taste. Your crap might >be my gem. (Gee, that sounds kinda funny, but you know what I mean...) I >try to keep an open mind and sample new ideas in music, but if I don't >like them, well, I ignore them. That's allowed. No one is forcing it >upon us -- at least more than once -- and any sort of "it's your >problem" gambit just doesn't wash. > >> I read >> somewhere that more than 300 new classical CDs were issued in the last 12 >> months. This is just classical, and does not even count any of the other >> forms out there. There is just too much out there, and too much of it that >> is REALLY GOOD, for me to spend too much time (and money) trying to >> understand one particular piece. That is really all that I am saying, and >> am myself quite flabbergasted that it is so difficult to understand. > >Your response made your position much more clear. Perhaps I quoted you >too briefly. However, you still seem to be insisting somewhat >dogmatically. I'm not at all concerned that your opinion is wrong. But a >little generosity is called for -- both for other musicians with their >own opinions, and for the concert-going public at whatever level of >apprecitation and understanding they might be. It's a big world with a >lot of colors, and seeing things in black and white diminished us all. > >Robert Holland >Briar Music Press >briar@chicagonet.net >http://members.aol.com/EnsPub/briar.htm > From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:00 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 12:58:17 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess To: jfeneley@glccomputers.com Cc: Trombone-L Subject: Re: Warm Down...... Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1267097388==_ma============" Re: Warm Down......
Now here's a guy with the absolute foundation to any sensible 'warm down.'
 
Amen, Wayne;
     Warming DOWN  cuts into serious hang time with the guys. I prefer dippin 
the lips in some type of cold brew. Always works well for me.  Manhattans are 
particularly effective.           
                    Larry Priori
Sipping correctly actually provides what can be called "controlled cooling."
Anything else is just more trombone playing.
Ken Feneley
 


--------------
I enjoyed that.  That's EXACTLY my feelings.  I don't NEED to warm down after playing.  Perhaps it's my jazz background, but after a 4-hour dance and at 1 or 2 a.m. -- all I want to do is pack up and go home!

Those times when I have "warmed down" have been after an orchestral concert when I haven't played enough to be warmed UP!  I just wanna play.....
:-)

I still feel no need for a warm down.  Just quit playing, pack it up, and go home!

;-)

Wayne Dyess


          _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
          _/                                                    _/
          _/  Wayne Dyess, Ed.D.          Tel. +1-409-880-8146  _/
          _/  Lamar University Music Dept.                      _/
          _/  P.O.Box 10044, Beaumont, TX.77710                 _/
          _/                                                    _/
          _/  United Musical Instruments (UMI)                  _/
          _/  "If it sounds good, it is good." -Duke Ellington  _/
          _/                                                    _/
          _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

Old trombone players never die;
They just slide away!
 From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:00 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 13:04:27 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess To: Trombone-L Subject: Bill Reichenbach -- please write me. Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Dear Friends and List Members, I apologize for this personal message to Mr. Reichenbach, but I don't have his e-mail address and need to contact him. My apologies. W.D. Dear Bill, I have made some initial inquiries about bringing you into Houston (about 72 miles from Beaumont), and there might be some help from a friend of mine (a former Woody Herman Herd-man). Can you please contact me again? I saved your last letter, but my program "ate" your e-mail address. My apologies... I'll not make that mistake again. Sincerely and best wishes, Wayne Dyess from Alvin Lockhart (bass trombonist): >How much dough are we talking about? There might be some resourses >that can be searched out. _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ Wayne Dyess, Ed.D. Tel. +1-409-880-8146 _/ _/ Lamar University Music Dept. _/ _/ P.O.Box 10044, Beaumont, TX.77710 _/ _/ _/ _/ United Musical Instruments (UMI) _/ _/ "If it sounds good, it is good." -Duke Ellington _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ Old trombone players never die; They just slide away! From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:00 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 11:04:37 -0800 From: "Dean Hubbard" To: Subject: Ralph Sauer's response to recent posts. Message-ID: <013e01bf44d3$c169fc40$7cbd183f@default> I would like to respond to the following items: On Fri, 10 Dec 1999, Scott Furness wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I attended Ralph Sauer's masterclass at Fort Meyer, VA (same site as ETW) a > few weeks ago. It actually wasn't much of a masterclass as it was an > commercial for Conn trombones. It was very informative. He demonstrated a > few of the valve options, bell options, and slide options that you can get > in todays 88H line. He discussed about what he thought about sound > projection and overall carrying power. He did a test for us, and picked up > two different bell sections, and played a couple of passages for us. We > then picked the one that projected sound the most. The decision was nearly > unanimous, as far as I could tell from the audience's response. The 88H-T > had better overall projection and carrying power than the 88H. This totally > goes against what I have heard on this list for years. Namely, if you get a > heavier weight bell, you can play louder. He also did a test with slide > sections. Again there was a surpise. The dual bore .525/547 and .547 > slides projected better than the .547/562 and .562 slides. Did he compare these with the Minick that he actually plays? Did he even mention that he doesn't play the "new" Conns? No offense meant to you, Scott, but these Conn "masterclasses" disgust me. Beth > > Disclaimer #1...Because Ralph knew what they were in advance, that might > have affected the result..I don't know. Perhaps the best test would have > been a double blinded one. > > Afterwards we got to play many of the setups. I had never played on one of > the thin rose brass Conns before, but I really loved them. I ditched my > regular Conn 88H last year because its response was inferior to a horn I > fell in love with at ETW...The Benge 165F. However these 88H-T's could > match that response, and the tone was even better. The best one IMHO was > the one with the lindberg valve. In a side by side comparison, IT FELT JUST > LIKE THE STRAIGHT 8H. However, I felt the trigger register was no better > than theother valves. But for a tenor player, that would be fine with me. > The non-trigger notes are the most important ones anyway. I also got to > play one of those 88H-SGX horns for the first time. There are plenty of > accomplished people on the list (like Wayne Dyess) who have recommended and > love the 88H-SGX. I didn't like it. It was a beautiful instrument to look > at, but compared with the 88H-T, it was very unresponsive FOR ME. > > Disclaimer #2. I'm just an amateur. These were my findings, but I know of > other much more accomplished folks who have had far different results. > > Bottom line...Try them all and find the one that feels right for YOU. There > are many options to try with the new Conns. > > Scott Ralph Sauer's response: Scott's comments are of course his own opinions. I have my opinions, which I expressed at the clinic, based on my reactions to different instruments. The bottom line here is that no two players will get exactly the same results from exactly the same equipment. That is the reason Conn offers such a wide choice. For the information of Beth, I do NOT play a Minick. My main horn has always been a Conn 8H. Yes, Minick made it detachable and also cut down a CONN bell to 8 inches. Does that make it a Minick? I think not. I do not bring this instrument to clinics because I want to demonstrate the current production models-ones that can actually be purchased. As to why I don't play the "new" Conn in the orchestra, my answer is that sometimes I do. When I first tried the new models about 6 months ago, I was very impressed with the playing qualities. However, the position of the slide brace (the one held with the right hand) is slightly different from my old slide-due to the removal of the springs, I guess. I play well over a hundred concerts per year and don't have time to adjust to slightly different position s. Conn is working on a slide to match the physical size of my old slide and when it is right, I will switch. Currently, I use a new 88HT bell section when I need the attachment. Also, I am very impressed with the new 525/547 dual bore slide and have used it recently on Pictures, Shostakovitch 8th, and Nevsky. I'm not sure why these Conn "masterclasses" disgust Beth. I don't tell gross jokes or play all that badly. Is it the commercial aspect? In spite of the best efforts of some of our politicians, this country is still based on capitalism. In most cases, the hosts of these events do not pay one penny-the entire cost is paid by United Musical Instruments (UMI). In addition, there is usually no admission charge to those who attend. In the specific case of the Fort Myer event, the entire thing was free. It sounds like a good deal to me-you get to hear a major player talk and perform plus try out a bunch of new instruments-free (except to UMI, of course). No one was forced to attend or forced to try the horns. Do you think that UMI would continue to sponsor their clinicians if we didn't promote the instruments? This is the way things work. My advise to everyone is-LIGHTEN UP!!! From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:00 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 12:50:15 -0600 From: "Robert Holland" To: "Trb. List" Subject: Re: This Whole Music Thing Message-ID: <199912121814.4532200@Chicago5> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Mike Coyle wrote: > There seems to be a hint of the notion of "dumbing down" in this discussion > which smacks of the populist, egalitarian scorn for the very kind of > intellectual distinction-making which has allowed cultural progress. > William Henry, in his learned and fearless book, "In Defense of Elitism", > quotes Margaret Mead who speculated that "the United States was entering a > new Dark Ages of medieval mysticism and mumbo-jumbo, of belief based on > self interest, mob politics, and fear rather than research and open-minded > inquiry." It seems she was right - a brand of anti-intellectual populism > is running amok! And, for a group of people (that would be us) who are > chiefly interested in classical music and jazz, neither of which is quite > the language of the common man, this strikes me as sadly ironic. This IS ironic. And it's precisely why, if we as individuals have developed any taste and wisdom, we need to maintain a high standard and avoid sinking to the level of the masses. But that's not an absolute standard. We can leaven it some. Knowing when, where, and how is where the wisdom comes in. So far, I've read a number of posts that fall into one of two categories: absolute relativism and "how can everyone not like what I like?" As with any continuum, a flexible equilibrium is probably a better solution than either extreme, though the extremes are sometimes warranted, too. My fear is that any value to be extracted from this spirited discussion will tend to be obscured by the posturing. Our discussion becomes "dumbed down" with the rest of it. So think and write carefully before posting. Contribute value rather than invective or posture. Robert Holland Briar Music Press briar@chicagonet.net http://members.aol.com/EnsPub/briar.htm From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:00 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 11:21:25 -0800 (PST) From: "Alex C." To: bonedean@email.msn.com, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Ralph Sauer's response to recent posts. Message-ID: <19991212192125.26662.qmail@web505.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thank you Mr. Sauer I could not agree with you more. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:00 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 14:28:06 EST From: EMRose79@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Fwd: Ralph Sauer's response to recent posts. Message-ID: <0.99b7e562.25855146@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_0.99b7e562.25855146_boundary" For my own opinion, I went to the UMI clinic @CalStateHayward, and while I missed the masterclass, I did notice the abundance of Conns and Getzens. However, it's what I would have expected as it was free, sponsored by UMI, and the local host is a clinician for Conn. I do wish there were more Kings, though. Ed Return-Path: Received: from rly-yb04.mx.aol.com (rly-yb04.mail.aol.com [172.18.146.4]) by air-yb05.mail.aol.com (vx) with ESMTP; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 14:05:42 1900 Received: from po.missouri.edu (po.missouri.edu [128.206.12.137]) by rly-yb04.mx.aol.com (v66.4) with ESMTP; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 14:05:29 -0500 Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by po.missouri.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01042; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 13:05:19 -0600 Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu08.email.msn.com [207.46.181.30]) by po.missouri.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA00774 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 13:03:47 -0600 Received: from default - 63.24.189.52 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 11:03:14 -0800 Message-Id: <013e01bf44d3$c169fc40$7cbd183f@default> Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 11:04:37 -0800 Reply-To: bonedean@email.msn.com Sender: owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Precedence: bulk From: "Dean Hubbard" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Ralph Sauer's response to recent posts. X-To: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN I would like to respond to the following items: On Fri, 10 Dec 1999, Scott Furness wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I attended Ralph Sauer's masterclass at Fort Meyer, VA (same site as ETW) a > few weeks ago. It actually wasn't much of a masterclass as it was an > commercial for Conn trombones. It was very informative. He demonstrated a > few of the valve options, bell options, and slide options that you can get > in todays 88H line. He discussed about what he thought about sound > projection and overall carrying power. He did a test for us, and picked up > two different bell sections, and played a couple of passages for us. We > then picked the one that projected sound the most. The decision was nearly > unanimous, as far as I could tell from the audience's response. The 88H-T > had better overall projection and carrying power than the 88H. This totally > goes against what I have heard on this list for years. Namely, if you get a > heavier weight bell, you can play louder. He also did a test with slide > sections. Again there was a surpise. The dual bore .525/547 and .547 > slides projected better than the .547/562 and .562 slides. Did he compare these with the Minick that he actually plays? Did he even mention that he doesn't play the "new" Conns? No offense meant to you, Scott, but these Conn "masterclasses" disgust me. Beth > > Disclaimer #1...Because Ralph knew what they were in advance, that might > have affected the result..I don't know. Perhaps the best test would have > been a double blinded one. > > Afterwards we got to play many of the setups. I had never played on one of > the thin rose brass Conns before, but I really loved them. I ditched my > regular Conn 88H last year because its response was inferior to a horn I > fell in love with at ETW...The Benge 165F. However these 88H-T's could > match that response, and the tone was even better. The best one IMHO was > the one with the lindberg valve. In a side by side comparison, IT FELT JUST > LIKE THE STRAIGHT 8H. However, I felt the trigger register was no better > than theother valves. But for a tenor player, that would be fine with me. > The non-trigger notes are the most important ones anyway. I also got to > play one of those 88H-SGX horns for the first time. There are plenty of > accomplished people on the list (like Wayne Dyess) who have recommended and > love the 88H-SGX. I didn't like it. It was a beautiful instrument to look > at, but compared with the 88H-T, it was very unresponsive FOR ME. > > Disclaimer #2. I'm just an amateur. These were my findings, but I know of > other much more accomplished folks who have had far different results. > > Bottom line...Try them all and find the one that feels right for YOU. There > are many options to try with the new Conns. > > Scott Ralph Sauer's response: Scott's comments are of course his own opinions. I have my opinions, which I expressed at the clinic, based on my reactions to different instruments. The bottom line here is that no two players will get exactly the same results from exactly the same equipment. That is the reason Conn offers such a wide choice. For the information of Beth, I do NOT play a Minick. My main horn has always been a Conn 8H. Yes, Minick made it detachable and also cut down a CONN bell to 8 inches. Does that make it a Minick? I think not. I do not bring this instrument to clinics because I want to demonstrate the current production models-ones that can actually be purchased. As to why I don't play the "new" Conn in the orchestra, my answer is that sometimes I do. When I first tried the new models about 6 months ago, I was very impressed with the playing qualities. However, the position of the slide brace (the one held with the right hand) is slightly different from my old slide-due to the removal of the springs, I guess. I play well over a hundred concerts per year and don't have time to adjust to slightly different position s. Conn is working on a slide to match the physical size of my old slide and when it is right, I will switch. Currently, I use a new 88HT bell section when I need the attachment. Also, I am very impressed with the new 525/547 dual bore slide and have used it recently on Pictures, Shostakovitch 8th, and Nevsky. I'm not sure why these Conn "masterclasses" disgust Beth. I don't tell gross jokes or play all that badly. Is it the commercial aspect? In spite of the best efforts of some of our politicians, this country is still based on capitalism. In most cases, the hosts of these events do not pay one penny-the entire cost is paid by United Musical Instruments (UMI). In addition, there is usually no admission charge to those who attend. In the specific case of the Fort Myer event, the entire thing was free. It sounds like a good deal to me-you get to hear a major player talk and perform plus try out a bunch of new instruments-free (except to UMI, of course). No one was forced to attend or forced to try the horns. Do you think that UMI would continue to sponsor their clinicians if we didn't promote the instruments? This is the way things work. My advise to everyone is-LIGHTEN UP!!! From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:00 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 14:28:56 -0500 (EST) From: Beth Lewis To: Dean Hubbard Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Ralph Sauer's response to recent posts. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dean, The next time you foward my words to someone else, I would like to know (or to be completely LEGAL, ask my permission). Not only is it illegal, it's not in good taste. I'm not afraid of Mr. Sauer knowing how I feel about the focus some of the recent UMI-sponsored masterclasses, but, when I write to the list (of which I'm pretty sure Mr. Sauer is NOT a subscriber) and DON'T give permission to send a copy of my email to every unsubscribed 'Tom, Dick, and Harry' out there who may have an opinion, such action just isn't of the friendly, informative exchange of ideas that makes me and, I'm sure, many others want to participate in Trombone-l. There's nothing wrong with asking Mr. Sauer to respond to the discussion, but directly quoting unknowing persons' responses is just illegal (AND not nice). Sorry those not involved/interested have to listen to this, Beth Lewis On Sun, 12 Dec 1999, Dean Hubbard wrote: > > I would like to respond to the following items: > > On Fri, 10 Dec 1999, Scott Furness wrote: > > > Hello everyone, > > > > I attended Ralph Sauer's masterclass at Fort Meyer, VA (same site as ETW) a > > few weeks ago. It actually wasn't much of a masterclass as it was an > > commercial for Conn trombones. It was very informative. He demonstrated a > > few of the valve options, bell options, and slide options that you can get > > in todays 88H line. He discussed about what he thought about sound > > projection and overall carrying power. He did a test for us, and picked up > > two different bell sections, and played a couple of passages for us. We > > then picked the one that projected sound the most. The decision was nearly > > unanimous, as far as I could tell from the audience's response. The 88H-T > > had better overall projection and carrying power than the 88H. This > totally > > goes against what I have heard on this list for years. Namely, if you get > a > > heavier weight bell, you can play louder. He also did a test with slide > > sections. Again there was a surpise. The dual bore .525/547 and .547 > > slides projected better than the .547/562 and .562 slides. > > Did he compare these with the Minick that he actually plays? Did he even > mention that he doesn't play the "new" Conns? No offense meant to you, > Scott, but these Conn "masterclasses" disgust me. > > Beth > > > > > Disclaimer #1...Because Ralph knew what they were in advance, that might > > have affected the result..I don't know. Perhaps the best test would have > > been a double blinded one. > > > > Afterwards we got to play many of the setups. I had never played on one of > > the thin rose brass Conns before, but I really loved them. I ditched my > > regular Conn 88H last year because its response was inferior to a horn I > > fell in love with at ETW...The Benge 165F. However these 88H-T's could > > match that response, and the tone was even better. The best one IMHO was > > the one with the lindberg valve. In a side by side comparison, IT FELT > JUST > > LIKE THE STRAIGHT 8H. However, I felt the trigger register was no better > > than theother valves. But for a tenor player, that would be fine with me. > > > The non-trigger notes are the most important ones anyway. I also got to > > play one of those 88H-SGX horns for the first time. There are plenty of > > accomplished people on the list (like Wayne Dyess) who have recommended and > > love the 88H-SGX. I didn't like it. It was a beautiful instrument to look > > at, but compared with the 88H-T, it was very unresponsive FOR ME. > > > > Disclaimer #2. I'm just an amateur. These were my findings, but I know of > > other much more accomplished folks who have had far different results. > > > > Bottom line...Try them all and find the one that feels right for YOU. > There > > are many options to try with the new Conns. > > > > Scott > > Ralph Sauer's response: > Scott's comments are of course his own opinions. I have my opinions, which I > expressed at the clinic, based on my reactions to different instruments. The > bottom line here is that no two players will get exactly the same results > from exactly the same equipment. That is the reason Conn offers such a wide > choice. > > For the information of Beth, I do NOT play a Minick. My main horn has always > been a Conn 8H. Yes, Minick made it detachable and also cut down a CONN bell > to 8 inches. Does that make it a Minick? I think not. I do not bring this > instrument to clinics because I want to demonstrate the current production > models-ones that can actually be purchased. > > As to why I don't play the "new" Conn in the orchestra, my answer is that > sometimes I do. When I first tried the new models about 6 months ago, I was > very impressed with the playing qualities. However, the position of the slide > brace (the one held with the right hand) is slightly different from my old > slide-due to the removal of the springs, I guess. I play well over a hundred > concerts per year and don't have time to adjust to slightly different position > s. Conn is working on a slide to match the physical size of my old slide and > when it is right, I will switch. Currently, I use a new 88HT bell section > when I need the attachment. Also, I am very impressed with the new 525/547 > dual bore slide and have used it recently on Pictures, Shostakovitch 8th, and > Nevsky. > > I'm not sure why these Conn "masterclasses" disgust Beth. I don't tell gross > jokes or play all that badly. Is it the commercial aspect? In spite of the > best efforts of some of our politicians, this country is still based on > capitalism. In most cases, the hosts of these events do not pay one penny-the > entire cost is paid by United Musical Instruments (UMI). In addition, there > is usually no admission charge to those who attend. In the specific case of > the Fort Myer event, the entire thing was free. It sounds like a good deal to > me-you get to hear a major player talk and perform plus try out a bunch of > new instruments-free (except to UMI, of course). No one was forced to attend > or forced to try the horns. Do you think that UMI would continue to sponsor > their clinicians if we didn't promote the instruments? This is the way things > work. My advise to everyone is-LIGHTEN UP!!! > > > > > From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:00 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 13:36:21 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: This Whole Music Thing Message-ID: <199912121940.NAA19203@newton.pconline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks again Robert. I have gotten a lot of response in support of the things I have recently said in this post. It has largely been via private email, however, which is a bit of a shame - some very intelligent and original thoughts have been sent my way which were worth sharing. Also, without that visable support I just look like a "ranting, closed-minded, idiot" acording to one of our less generous listers :) Ahhhh, people, you can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em :) Mike At 12:50 PM 12/12/99 , you wrote: >Mike Coyle wrote: > >> There seems to be a hint of the notion of "dumbing down" in this discussion >> which smacks of the populist, egalitarian scorn for the very kind of >> intellectual distinction-making which has allowed cultural progress. >> William Henry, in his learned and fearless book, "In Defense of Elitism", >> quotes Margaret Mead who speculated that "the United States was entering a >> new Dark Ages of medieval mysticism and mumbo-jumbo, of belief based on >> self interest, mob politics, and fear rather than research and open-minded >> inquiry." It seems she was right - a brand of anti-intellectual populism >> is running amok! And, for a group of people (that would be us) who are >> chiefly interested in classical music and jazz, neither of which is quite >> the language of the common man, this strikes me as sadly ironic. > >This IS ironic. And it's precisely why, if we as individuals have >developed any taste and wisdom, we need to maintain a high standard and >avoid sinking to the level of the masses. But that's not an absolute >standard. We can leaven it some. Knowing when, where, and how is where >the wisdom comes in. > >So far, I've read a number of posts that fall into one of two >categories: absolute relativism and "how can everyone not like what I >like?" As with any continuum, a flexible equilibrium is probably a >better solution than either extreme, though the extremes are sometimes >warranted, too. My fear is that any value to be extracted from this >spirited discussion will tend to be obscured by the posturing. Our >discussion becomes "dumbed down" with the rest of it. > >So think and write carefully before posting. Contribute value rather >than invective or posture. > >Robert Holland >Briar Music Press >briar@chicagonet.net >http://members.aol.com/EnsPub/briar.htm > From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:00 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 12:32:58 -0800 From: "Dean Hubbard" To: "Beth Lewis" , Subject: Re: Ralph Sauer's response to recent posts. Message-ID: <01c401bf44e0$191a99c0$7cbd183f@default> Beth, You're assuming facts not in evidence. I did not forward your post to Ralph Sauer. I do no know who did. You have falsely accused me of something I did not do. Ralph asked me to post his response to the List to clear up a couple of inaccuracies. That's all I did. Since the Trombone-L is a public forum open to folks interested in the trombone with a valid (non-free) email account, I don't understand your indignation. Even people who do not subscribe to the Trombone-L can access all correspondence by going to the Archive. Did you actually think that your post would not be brought to Ralph's attention? You accused him of using a horn other than the one he endorses. I believe this attacks Ralph's credibility and could impact his career. Naturally Ralph wanted to clear this up. (Who wouldn't?) Sine Nobilitat, Dean Hubbard Bondean@msn.com @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ----- Original Message ----- From: Beth Lewis To: Dean Hubbard Cc: Trombones and related issues forum. Sent: Sunday, December 12, 1999 11:28 AM Subject: Re: Ralph Sauer's response to recent posts. > Dean, > > The next time you foward my words to someone else, I would like to know > (or to be completely LEGAL, ask my permission). Not only is it illegal, > it's not in good taste. I'm not afraid of Mr. Sauer knowing how I feel > about the focus some of the recent UMI-sponsored masterclasses, but, when > I write to the list (of which I'm pretty sure Mr. Sauer is NOT a > subscriber) and DON'T give permission to send a copy of my email to every > unsubscribed 'Tom, Dick, and Harry' out there who may have an opinion, > such action just isn't of the friendly, informative exchange of ideas that > makes me and, I'm sure, many others want to participate in Trombone-l. > There's nothing wrong with asking Mr. Sauer to respond to the discussion, > but directly quoting unknowing persons' responses is just illegal (AND not > nice). > > Sorry those not involved/interested have to listen to this, > Beth Lewis > > > On Sun, 12 Dec 1999, Dean Hubbard wrote: > > > > > I would like to respond to the following items: > > > > On Fri, 10 Dec 1999, Scott Furness wrote: > > > > > Hello everyone, > > > > > > I attended Ralph Sauer's masterclass at Fort Meyer, VA (same site as ETW) a > > > few weeks ago. It actually wasn't much of a masterclass as it was an > > > commercial for Conn trombones. It was very informative. He demonstrated a > > > few of the valve options, bell options, and slide options that you can get > > > in todays 88H line. He discussed about what he thought about sound > > > projection and overall carrying power. He did a test for us, and picked up > > > two different bell sections, and played a couple of passages for us. We > > > then picked the one that projected sound the most. The decision was nearly > > > unanimous, as far as I could tell from the audience's response. The 88H-T > > > had better overall projection and carrying power than the 88H. This > > totally > > > goes against what I have heard on this list for years. Namely, if you get > > a > > > heavier weight bell, you can play louder. He also did a test with slide > > > sections. Again there was a surpise. The dual bore .525/547 and .547 > > > slides projected better than the .547/562 and .562 slides. > > > > Did he compare these with the Minick that he actually plays? Did he even > > mention that he doesn't play the "new" Conns? No offense meant to you, > > Scott, but these Conn "masterclasses" disgust me. > > > > Beth > > > > > > > > Disclaimer #1...Because Ralph knew what they were in advance, that might > > > have affected the result..I don't know. Perhaps the best test would have > > > been a double blinded one. > > > > > > Afterwards we got to play many of the setups. I had never played on one of > > > the thin rose brass Conns before, but I really loved them. I ditched my > > > regular Conn 88H last year because its response was inferior to a horn I > > > fell in love with at ETW...The Benge 165F. However these 88H-T's could > > > match that response, and the tone was even better. The best one IMHO was > > > the one with the lindberg valve. In a side by side comparison, IT FELT > > JUST > > > LIKE THE STRAIGHT 8H. However, I felt the trigger register was no better > > > than theother valves. But for a tenor player, that would be fine with me. > > > > > The non-trigger notes are the most important ones anyway. I also got to > > > play one of those 88H-SGX horns for the first time. There are plenty of > > > accomplished people on the list (like Wayne Dyess) who have recommended and > > > love the 88H-SGX. I didn't like it. It was a beautiful instrument to look > > > at, but compared with the 88H-T, it was very unresponsive FOR ME. > > > > > > Disclaimer #2. I'm just an amateur. These were my findings, but I know of > > > other much more accomplished folks who have had far different results. > > > > > > Bottom line...Try them all and find the one that feels right for YOU. > > There > > > are many options to try with the new Conns. > > > > > > Scott > > > > Ralph Sauer's response: > > Scott's comments are of course his own opinions. I have my opinions, which I > > expressed at the clinic, based on my reactions to different instruments. The > > bottom line here is that no two players will get exactly the same results > > from exactly the same equipment. That is the reason Conn offers such a wide > > choice. > > > > For the information of Beth, I do NOT play a Minick. My main horn has always > > been a Conn 8H. Yes, Minick made it detachable and also cut down a CONN bell > > to 8 inches. Does that make it a Minick? I think not. I do not bring this > > instrument to clinics because I want to demonstrate the current production > > models-ones that can actually be purchased. > > > > As to why I don't play the "new" Conn in the orchestra, my answer is that > > sometimes I do. When I first tried the new models about 6 months ago, I was > > very impressed with the playing qualities. However, the position of the slide > > brace (the one held with the right hand) is slightly different from my old > > slide-due to the removal of the springs, I guess. I play well over a hundred > > concerts per year and don't have time to adjust to slightly different position > > s. Conn is working on a slide to match the physical size of my old slide and > > when it is right, I will switch. Currently, I use a new 88HT bell section > > when I need the attachment. Also, I am very impressed with the new 525/547 > > dual bore slide and have used it recently on Pictures, Shostakovitch 8th, and > > Nevsky. > > > > I'm not sure why these Conn "masterclasses" disgust Beth. I don't tell gross > > jokes or play all that badly. Is it the commercial aspect? In spite of the > > best efforts of some of our politicians, this country is still based on > > capitalism. In most cases, the hosts of these events do not pay one penny-the > > entire cost is paid by United Musical Instruments (UMI). In addition, there > > is usually no admission charge to those who attend. In the specific case of > > the Fort Myer event, the entire thing was free. It sounds like a good deal to > > me-you get to hear a major player talk and perform plus try out a bunch of > > new instruments-free (except to UMI, of course). No one was forced to attend > > or forced to try the horns. Do you think that UMI would continue to sponsor > > their clinicians if we didn't promote the instruments? This is the way things > > work. My advise to everyone is-LIGHTEN UP!!! > > > > > > > > > > > From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:00 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 15:13:25 -0600 From: "Kenneth Dowdy" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: This Whole Music Thing Message-ID: <002e01bf44e5$bc3ee020$8e1d0f3f@default> I wrote: > >> I would agree >> that a musician (performer, arranger, composer, conductor) should be as >> familiar with the piece as is possible. However, the vast majority of >> personnel in contact with music are not musicians. In fact, the majority of >> those paying musicians salaries are not musicians. Robert answered: > >A categorical division between professionals and lay persons? Most of >that will happen all by itself and doesn't need a formalized separation. >Besides, there are a lot of enthusiastic amateurs who would find that >attitude among musicians very patronizing. Actually, not a categorization along those lines at all. I would consider a musician as one who "makes music". In fact, the dictionary definition is a composer, conductor, or performer of music. A professional is simply a musician that gets paid for his perfomance. I'm not sure what you mean by a "lay person". I am simply trying to state that not everyone who enjoys music is a musician. This is no more patronizing than stating the obvious fact that not everyone who enjoys fast cars is an automotive engineer or mechanic. It would seem to me that an "enthusiastic amature" that composes, conducts, or performs music is a musician. One who simply listens to music and enjoys the product of musicians is not a musician. I can play, at some level several different instruments. I also arrange music at some level. However, I would much rather listen to someone else perform music than perform it myself, and in fact spend most of my "musical time" doing just that. I do not consider myself a musician, but rather an informed consurmer of music. As to being patronizing toward amatures, I have stated before on this list that some of the best music that I have heard came from amature musicians. For me, the best music comes from the heart and not the head. > I wrote: > >> I'm afraid that as an "honest" appreciator of music, I am just >> tired of people feeding me crap and telling me that it is my problem that I >> didn't take the time to fully submerse myself in their product. Richard wrote: > >That's very realistic, but it's also a matter of taste. Your crap might >be my gem. (Gee, that sounds kinda funny, but you know what I mean...) I >try to keep an open mind and sample new ideas in music, but if I don't >like them, well, I ignore them. That's allowed. No one is forcing it >upon us -- at least more than once -- and any sort of "it's your >problem" gambit just doesn't wash. I agree with you view wholeheartedly. I also should not have used the term "crap" in discussing someone's creative output. However, I have felt the furry of those who do not share your view. I wrote: > >> I read >> somewhere that more than 300 new classical CDs were issued in the last 12 >> months. This is just classical, and does not even count any of the other >> forms out there. There is just too much out there, and too much of it that >> is REALLY GOOD, for me to spend too much time (and money) trying to >> understand one particular piece. That is really all that I am saying, and >> am myself quite flabbergasted that it is so difficult to understand. Richard wrote: > >Your response made your position much more clear. Perhaps I quoted you >too briefly. However, you still seem to be insisting somewhat >dogmatically. I'm not at all concerned that your opinion is wrong. But a >little generosity is called for -- both for other musicians with their >own opinions, and for the concert-going public at whatever level of >apprecitation and understanding they might be. It's a big world with a >lot of colors, and seeing things in black and white diminished us all. As you stated in your previous post, you got into this scrap a bit late. I am beginning to wonder if you have read ALL of this thread. To refresh things, I was one of two people on this list that mearly stated that Bach's St. Matthew's Passion would not be my first choice of the greatest music of all time. The response that we recieved for this statement would make one think that we had just peed on Bach's grave. I have spent a lot of bandwidth defending other musician's opinions, and the concert going public, from those who consider anything other than "their" music to be the beginning of the end of civilization. I have also come to the defense of those who do not believe that they should have to have a degree in music in order to benefit from a performance. So please, grant me the generosity that you expect from me. Or at least read everything that I write before you chastize me for taking a hard line. If I take a hard stand on anything musical, it is that no hard stand should be taken on anything musical. I save my hard lines for religion and politics :-) Some, will disagree with this attitude, and that is OK with me, too. Ken Dowdy From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:00 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 13:26:11 -0800 From: Chris Tune To: ealewis@indiana.edu, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Ralph Sauer's response to recent posts. Message-ID: <003701bf44e7$846048e0$4cdaaace@ultrascsi> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Beth, I believe your understanding of the legal issues here is not right. You write to someone in a public forum expressing an opinion. You have placed your writing in "The Public Domain". This means that anyone for any reason can forward your comments (unaltered, of course) and this may sometimes result in your being embarrased. This is particularly likely if you make terse, critical comments. Now it may be of sufficient importance to you to express your opinions about commercial events like the UMI sponsored event. Then you should feel unafraid when confronted by Mr. Sauer. Many people don't care at all about these kinds of things. Perhaps you are worried now that you have alienated another trombonist (one sitting in a principal chair in a major market symphony orchestra). In the long run this probably won't matter at all. If you do care about this kind of adverse reaction I would advise that you develop a habit of "self-editing" your comments. Not that you are not entitled to your opinion, but that your opinion could be equally as powerful expressed in a thoughtful and fully supported manner. Perhaps you are concerned about the added costs being passed through to the end consumer. Perhaps you believe that the internet has made these options known to anyone in cyberspace and feel that the quasi-"Clinic" method of marketing is therefore inappropriate. Ultimately all that is really being discussed here is a trombonist's choice of horns. The fact that Conn is now offering several different options on their retail instruments, is a logical business move considering the strong competition offered by custom or near custom instruments such as the Edwards. If profit were the only motivation in the business of developing brass instruments, perhaps we would see very little in the way of large-bore symphonic style instrument development (jazz and other small bore applications would prevail). As it is, we are lucky that the whole "Testimonial" situation exists. It means major symphony players like Christian Lindberg, Jay Freidman and Ralph Sauer directly influence the development of large bore trombones. This has been part of the development of enhanced lines like the present Conn 88 series. Christopher R. Tune http://www.christune.com Cell (818) 468-4767 Home (818) 763-9397 ********************************************* There are just two rules in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know. ********************************************* ----- Original Message ----- From: Beth Lewis To: Trombones and related issues forum. Sent: Sunday, December 12, 1999 11:28 AM Subject: Re: Ralph Sauer's response to recent posts. > Dean, > > The next time you foward my words to someone else, I would like to know > (or to be completely LEGAL, ask my permission). Not only is it illegal, > it's not in good taste. I'm not afraid of Mr. Sauer knowing how I feel > about the focus some of the recent UMI-sponsored masterclasses, but, when > I write to the list (of which I'm pretty sure Mr. Sauer is NOT a > subscriber) and DON'T give permission to send a copy of my email to every > unsubscribed 'Tom, Dick, and Harry' out there who may have an opinion, > such action just isn't of the friendly, informative exchange of ideas that > makes me and, I'm sure, many others want to participate in Trombone-l. > There's nothing wrong with asking Mr. Sauer to respond to the discussion, > but directly quoting unknowing persons' responses is just illegal (AND not > nice). > > Sorry those not involved/interested have to listen to this, > Beth Lewis > > > On Sun, 12 Dec 1999, Dean Hubbard wrote: > > > > > I would like to respond to the following items: > > > > On Fri, 10 Dec 1999, Scott Furness wrote: > > > > > Hello everyone, > > > > > > I attended Ralph Sauer's masterclass at Fort Meyer, VA (same site as ETW) a > > > few weeks ago. It actually wasn't much of a masterclass as it was an > > > commercial for Conn trombones. It was very informative. He demonstrated a > > > few of the valve options, bell options, and slide options that you can get > > > in todays 88H line. He discussed about what he thought about sound > > > projection and overall carrying power. He did a test for us, and picked up > > > two different bell sections, and played a couple of passages for us. We > > > then picked the one that projected sound the most. The decision was nearly > > > unanimous, as far as I could tell from the audience's response. The 88H-T > > > had better overall projection and carrying power than the 88H. This > > totally > > > goes against what I have heard on this list for years. Namely, if you get > > a > > > heavier weight bell, you can play louder. He also did a test with slide > > > sections. Again there was a surpise. The dual bore .525/547 and .547 > > > slides projected better than the .547/562 and .562 slides. > > > > Did he compare these with the Minick that he actually plays? Did he even > > mention that he doesn't play the "new" Conns? No offense meant to you, > > Scott, but these Conn "masterclasses" disgust me. > > > > Beth > > > > > > > > Disclaimer #1...Because Ralph knew what they were in advance, that might > > > have affected the result..I don't know. Perhaps the best test would have > > > been a double blinded one. > > > > > > Afterwards we got to play many of the setups. I had never played on one of > > > the thin rose brass Conns before, but I really loved them. I ditched my > > > regular Conn 88H last year because its response was inferior to a horn I > > > fell in love with at ETW...The Benge 165F. However these 88H-T's could > > > match that response, and the tone was even better. The best one IMHO was > > > the one with the lindberg valve. In a side by side comparison, IT FELT > > JUST > > > LIKE THE STRAIGHT 8H. However, I felt the trigger register was no better > > > than theother valves. But for a tenor player, that would be fine with me. > > > > > The non-trigger notes are the most important ones anyway. I also got to > > > play one of those 88H-SGX horns for the first time. There are plenty of > > > accomplished people on the list (like Wayne Dyess) who have recommended and > > > love the 88H-SGX. I didn't like it. It was a beautiful instrument to look > > > at, but compared with the 88H-T, it was very unresponsive FOR ME. > > > > > > Disclaimer #2. I'm just an amateur. These were my findings, but I know of > > > other much more accomplished folks who have had far different results. > > > > > > Bottom line...Try them all and find the one that feels right for YOU. > > There > > > are many options to try with the new Conns. > > > > > > Scott > > > > Ralph Sauer's response: > > Scott's comments are of course his own opinions. I have my opinions, which I > > expressed at the clinic, based on my reactions to different instruments. The > > bottom line here is that no two players will get exactly the same results > > from exactly the same equipment. That is the reason Conn offers such a wide > > choice. > > > > For the information of Beth, I do NOT play a Minick. My main horn has always > > been a Conn 8H. Yes, Minick made it detachable and also cut down a CONN bell > > to 8 inches. Does that make it a Minick? I think not. I do not bring this > > instrument to clinics because I want to demonstrate the current production > > models-ones that can actually be purchased. > > > > As to why I don't play the "new" Conn in the orchestra, my answer is that > > sometimes I do. When I first tried the new models about 6 months ago, I was > > very impressed with the playing qualities. However, the position of the slide > > brace (the one held with the right hand) is slightly different from my old > > slide-due to the removal of the springs, I guess. I play well over a hundred > > concerts per year and don't have time to adjust to slightly different position > > s. Conn is working on a slide to match the physical size of my old slide and > > when it is right, I will switch. Currently, I use a new 88HT bell section > > when I need the attachment. Also, I am very impressed with the new 525/547 > > dual bore slide and have used it recently on Pictures, Shostakovitch 8th, and > > Nevsky. > > > > I'm not sure why these Conn "masterclasses" disgust Beth. I don't tell gross > > jokes or play all that badly. Is it the commercial aspect? In spite of the > > best efforts of some of our politicians, this country is still based on > > capitalism. In most cases, the hosts of these events do not pay one penny-the > > entire cost is paid by United Musical Instruments (UMI). In addition, there > > is usually no admission charge to those who attend. In the specific case of > > the Fort Myer event, the entire thing was free. It sounds like a good deal to > > me-you get to hear a major player talk and perform plus try out a bunch of > > new instruments-free (except to UMI, of course). No one was forced to attend > > or forced to try the horns. Do you think that UMI would continue to sponsor > > their clinicians if we didn't promote the instruments? This is the way things > > work. My advise to everyone is-LIGHTEN UP!!! > > > > > > > > > > > From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:00 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 13:25:49 -0800 From: "Jim O'Briant" To: "'ealewis@indiana.edu'" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Ralph Sauer's response to recent posts. Message-ID: <01BF44A5.851C9A00.jobriant@garlic.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beth Lewis wrote in part: > The next time you foward my words > to someone else, I would like to know > (or to be completely LEGAL, ask my > permission). Not only is it illegal, it's > not in good taste. ... when I write to the > list (of which I'm pretty sure Mr. Sauer > is NOT a subscriber) and DON'T give > permission to send a copy of my email > to every unsubscribed 'Tom, Dick, and > Harry' out there who may have an opinion,... Sorry, Beth, but it is standard Internet and Usenet practice that anything you say on a public mailing list is public and any reader is free to forward it to anyone they want, as long as they attribute the material properly and don't edit it so as to alter your meaning. Private e-mail communication is private. Public list communication is public. Jim O'Briant Gilroy, Ca From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:00 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 13:43:17 -0800 From: Chris Tune To: msfurness@hotmail.com, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Conn 88HTO vs Conn 88HO Message-ID: <004901bf44e9$e86a1bc0$4cdaaace@ultrascsi> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Regarding the concept that a larger bell section or a larger horn will "project" better. This is largely not true and never has been true. This is simply a further over-teutonicization of the symphony trombone sound. When I played in college principal trombone spots in orchestra and wind orchestra (1976-77) I could very well have used a Bach 42 and perhaps a 5G or larger mouthpiece. The equipment was available. Instead I preferred an 8H and a fixed up 61/2 AL (backbore fixed so it didn't have a small shank type backbore) mouthpiece. This was as large as I could justify. This was based solely upon sound quality. The effect was rich and "Teutonic" when not blowing too loudly (as you might when playing Brahms chorale sections). The set of equipment projected and "cut" a little when playing louder material such as "Symphony Fantastique" or "The Planets". That was my desired effect and so the "quest" was over. There was no need to worry about bells and mouthpieces, etc. Had I had occasion to play second in a major orchestra, I would have needed to get an 88H or similar horn. I would have been thrilled to have all the choices available to someone purchasing this kind of instrument today. Christopher R. Tune http://www.christune.com Cell (818) 468-4767 Home (818) 763-9397 ********************************************* There are just two rules in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know. ********************************************* ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Furness To: Trombones and related issues forum. Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 2:15 PM Subject: Re: Conn 88HTO vs Conn 88HO > Hello everyone, > > I attended Ralph Sauer's masterclass at Fort Meyer, VA (same site as ETW) a > few weeks ago. It actually wasn't much of a masterclass as it was an > commercial for Conn trombones. It was very informative. He demonstrated a > few of the valve options, bell options, and slide options that you can get > in todays 88H line. He discussed about what he thought about sound > projection and overall carrying power. He did a test for us, and picked up > two different bell sections, and played a couple of passages for us. We > then picked the one that projected sound the most. The decision was nearly > unanimous, as far as I could tell from the audience's response. The 88H-T > had better overall projection and carrying power than the 88H. This totally > goes against what I have heard on this list for years. Namely, if you get a > heavier weight bell, you can play louder. He also did a test with slide > sections. Again there was a surpise. The dual bore .525/547 and .547 > slides projected better than the .547/562 and .562 slides. > > Disclaimer #1...Because Ralph knew what they were in advance, that might > have affected the result..I don't know. Perhaps the best test would have > been a double blinded one. > > Afterwards we got to play many of the setups. I had never played on one of > the thin rose brass Conns before, but I really loved them. I ditched my > regular Conn 88H last year because its response was inferior to a horn I > fell in love with at ETW...The Benge 165F. However these 88H-T's could > match that response, and the tone was even better. The best one IMHO was > the one with the lindberg valve. In a side by side comparison, IT FELT JUST > LIKE THE STRAIGHT 8H. However, I felt the trigger register was no better > than theother valves. But for a tenor player, that would be fine with me. > The non-trigger notes are the most important ones anyway. I also got to > play one of those 88H-SGX horns for the first time. There are plenty of > accomplished people on the list (like Wayne Dyess) who have recommended and > love the 88H-SGX. I didn't like it. It was a beautiful instrument to look > at, but compared with the 88H-T, it was very unresponsive FOR ME. > > Disclaimer #2. I'm just an amateur. These were my findings, but I know of > other much more accomplished folks who have had far different results. > > Bottom line...Try them all and find the one that feels right for YOU. There > are many options to try with the new Conns. > > Scott > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:00 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 13:46:27 -0800 From: Chris Tune To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Ralph Sauer's response to recent posts. Message-ID: <004f01bf44ea$58e67ec0$4cdaaace@ultrascsi> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >As it is, we are lucky that the whole "Testimonial" situation exists. It >means major symphony players like Christian Lindberg, Jay Freidman and Ralph >Sauer directly influence the development of large bore trombones. This has >been part of the development of enhanced lines like the present Conn 88 >series. Speaking of self-editing: I am aware that Lindberg is not actually a "symphony" player, but a soloist. Christopher R. Tune http://www.christune.com Cell (818) 468-4767 Home (818) 763-9397 ********************************************* There are just two rules in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know. ********************************************* ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Tune To: Trombones and related issues forum. Sent: Sunday, December 12, 1999 1:26 PM Subject: Re: Ralph Sauer's response to recent posts. > Beth, I believe your understanding of the legal issues here is not right. > You write to someone in a public forum expressing an opinion. You have > placed your writing in "The Public Domain". > > This means that anyone for any reason can forward your comments (unaltered, > of course) and this may sometimes result in your being embarrased. This is > particularly likely if you make terse, critical comments. Now it may be of > sufficient importance to you to express your opinions about commercial > events like the UMI sponsored event. Then you should feel unafraid when > confronted by Mr. Sauer. Many people don't care at all about these kinds of > things. Perhaps you are worried now that you have alienated another > trombonist (one sitting in a principal chair in a major market symphony > orchestra). In the long run this probably won't matter at all. > > If you do care about this kind of adverse reaction I would advise that you > develop a habit of "self-editing" your comments. Not that you are not > entitled to your opinion, but that your opinion could be equally as powerful > expressed in a thoughtful and fully supported manner. Perhaps you are > concerned about the added costs being passed through to the end consumer. > Perhaps you believe that the internet has made these options known to anyone > in cyberspace and feel that the quasi-"Clinic" method of marketing is > therefore inappropriate. > > Ultimately all that is really being discussed here is a trombonist's choice > of horns. The fact that Conn is now offering several different options on > their retail instruments, is a logical business move considering the strong > competition offered by custom or near custom instruments such as the > Edwards. If profit were the only motivation in the business of developing > brass instruments, perhaps we would see very little in the way of large-bore > symphonic style instrument development (jazz and other small bore > applications would prevail). > > As it is, we are lucky that the whole "Testimonial" situation exists. It > means major symphony players like Christian Lindberg, Jay Freidman and Ralph > Sauer directly influence the development of large bore trombones. This has > been part of the development of enhanced lines like the present Conn 88 > series. > > Christopher R. Tune > > http://www.christune.com > > Cell (818) 468-4767 > Home (818) 763-9397 > > ********************************************* > There are just two rules in life: > 1. Don't tell people everything you know. > ********************************************* > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Beth Lewis > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Sent: Sunday, December 12, 1999 11:28 AM > Subject: Re: Ralph Sauer's response to recent posts. > > > > Dean, > > > > The next time you foward my words to someone else, I would like to know > > (or to be completely LEGAL, ask my permission). Not only is it illegal, > > it's not in good taste. I'm not afraid of Mr. Sauer knowing how I feel > > about the focus some of the recent UMI-sponsored masterclasses, but, when > > I write to the list (of which I'm pretty sure Mr. Sauer is NOT a > > subscriber) and DON'T give permission to send a copy of my email to every > > unsubscribed 'Tom, Dick, and Harry' out there who may have an opinion, > > such action just isn't of the friendly, informative exchange of ideas that > > makes me and, I'm sure, many others want to participate in Trombone-l. > > There's nothing wrong with asking Mr. Sauer to respond to the discussion, > > but directly quoting unknowing persons' responses is just illegal (AND not > > nice). > > > > Sorry those not involved/interested have to listen to this, > > Beth Lewis > > > > > > On Sun, 12 Dec 1999, Dean Hubbard wrote: > > > > > > > > I would like to respond to the following items: > > > > > > On Fri, 10 Dec 1999, Scott Furness wrote: > > > > > > > Hello everyone, > > > > > > > > I attended Ralph Sauer's masterclass at Fort Meyer, VA (same site as > ETW) a > > > > few weeks ago. It actually wasn't much of a masterclass as it was an > > > > commercial for Conn trombones. It was very informative. He > demonstrated a > > > > few of the valve options, bell options, and slide options that you can > get > > > > in todays 88H line. He discussed about what he thought about sound > > > > projection and overall carrying power. He did a test for us, and > picked up > > > > two different bell sections, and played a couple of passages for us. > We > > > > then picked the one that projected sound the most. The decision was > nearly > > > > unanimous, as far as I could tell from the audience's response. The > 88H-T > > > > had better overall projection and carrying power than the 88H. This > > > totally > > > > goes against what I have heard on this list for years. Namely, if you > get > > > a > > > > heavier weight bell, you can play louder. He also did a test with > slide > > > > sections. Again there was a surpise. The dual bore .525/547 and .547 > > > > slides projected better than the .547/562 and .562 slides. > > > > > > Did he compare these with the Minick that he actually plays? Did he even > > > mention that he doesn't play the "new" Conns? No offense meant to you, > > > Scott, but these Conn "masterclasses" disgust me. > > > > > > Beth > > > > > > > > > > > Disclaimer #1...Because Ralph knew what they were in advance, that > might > > > > have affected the result..I don't know. Perhaps the best test would > have > > > > been a double blinded one. > > > > > > > > Afterwards we got to play many of the setups. I had never played on > one of > > > > the thin rose brass Conns before, but I really loved them. I ditched > my > > > > regular Conn 88H last year because its response was inferior to a horn > I > > > > fell in love with at ETW...The Benge 165F. However these 88H-T's > could > > > > match that response, and the tone was even better. The best one IMHO > was > > > > the one with the lindberg valve. In a side by side comparison, IT > FELT > > > JUST > > > > LIKE THE STRAIGHT 8H. However, I felt the trigger register was no > better > > > > than theother valves. But for a tenor player, that would be fine > with me. > > > > > > > The non-trigger notes are the most important ones anyway. I also got > to > > > > play one of those 88H-SGX horns for the first time. There are plenty > of > > > > accomplished people on the list (like Wayne Dyess) who have > recommended and > > > > love the 88H-SGX. I didn't like it. It was a beautiful instrument to > look > > > > at, but compared with the 88H-T, it was very unresponsive FOR ME. > > > > > > > > Disclaimer #2. I'm just an amateur. These were my findings, but I > know of > > > > other much more accomplished folks who have had far different results. > > > > > > > > Bottom line...Try them all and find the one that feels right for YOU. > > > There > > > > are many options to try with the new Conns. > > > > > > > > Scott > > > > > > Ralph Sauer's response: > > > Scott's comments are of course his own opinions. I have my opinions, > which I > > > expressed at the clinic, based on my reactions to different instruments. > The > > > bottom line here is that no two players will get exactly the same > results > > > from exactly the same equipment. That is the reason Conn offers such a > wide > > > choice. > > > > > > For the information of Beth, I do NOT play a Minick. My main horn has > always > > > been a Conn 8H. Yes, Minick made it detachable and also cut down a CONN > bell > > > to 8 inches. Does that make it a Minick? I think not. I do not bring > this > > > instrument to clinics because I want to demonstrate the current > production > > > models-ones that can actually be purchased. > > > > > > As to why I don't play the "new" Conn in the orchestra, my answer is > that > > > sometimes I do. When I first tried the new models about 6 months ago, I > was > > > very impressed with the playing qualities. However, the position of the > slide > > > brace (the one held with the right hand) is slightly different from my > old > > > slide-due to the removal of the springs, I guess. I play well over a > hundred > > > concerts per year and don't have time to adjust to slightly different > position > > > s. Conn is working on a slide to match the physical size of my old slide > and > > > when it is right, I will switch. Currently, I use a new 88HT bell > section > > > when I need the attachment. Also, I am very impressed with the new > 525/547 > > > dual bore slide and have used it recently on Pictures, Shostakovitch > 8th, and > > > Nevsky. > > > > > > I'm not sure why these Conn "masterclasses" disgust Beth. I don't tell > gross > > > jokes or play all that badly. Is it the commercial aspect? In spite of > the > > > best efforts of some of our politicians, this country is still based on > > > capitalism. In most cases, the hosts of these events do not pay one > penny-the > > > entire cost is paid by United Musical Instruments (UMI). In addition, > there > > > is usually no admission charge to those who attend. In the specific case > of > > > the Fort Myer event, the entire thing was free. It sounds like a good > deal to > > > me-you get to hear a major player talk and perform plus try out a bunch > of > > > new instruments-free (except to UMI, of course). No one was forced to > attend > > > or forced to try the horns. Do you think that UMI would continue to > sponsor > > > their clinicians if we didn't promote the instruments? This is the way > things > > > work. My advise to everyone is-LIGHTEN UP!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:00 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 23:33:51 +0100 From: Anders Carlsson To: "Kenneth Dowdy" Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: the music thread Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "Kenneth Dowdy" skriver: > It is strange, but I have met >Classical snobs, Early Music snobs, Jazz snobs, and so on, but I have >yet to >meet a Big Band snob. Don«t forget brass snobs. /Anders From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:01 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 17:41:05 EST From: ButteBlack@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Ralph Sauer Message-ID: <0.2d525fc0.25857e81@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beth: I am the guilty party. I forwarded your comments to Ralph since I know he is not a member of the list. Since he is a clinician, he has a right to know what response his clinics receive whether verbal or via Internet. As a district manager for UMI, I monitor several lists including the trombone list. When I read a comment pertinent to UMI, I forward to the company or to persons I feel need to know. I also forwarded your message to Dean since he also is a UMI clinician. Ralph asked Dean how to respond and Dean gave the proper information. If you are angry about my forwarding your comments to Ralph, that is your choice. I feel that maybe you should be angry at yourself, you wrote the comments for all to see. As District Manager for UMI, I participated with Ralph at the Hayward State Master Class with over 150 attendees. This was an event similar to the one in D.C. None of the participates complained about Ralph demonstrating and discussing what is new with Conn Trombones. Everyone was pleased with the master class as demonstrated by the positive comments I received afterwards. The Hayward State Trombone Day was a commercially sponsored event with over 200 trombonists attending. Everyone who attended was aware of the commercial aspect of the event. They were not disgusted but were thankful that A & G Music and UMI sponsored the event. I would be willing to bet that the attendees in D.C. felt the same way. The majority I'm sure could see an opportunity to learn and experience a positive event. I would think that the opportunity to see and hear someone of Ralph's stature would erase any negative thoughts one would have of these events. Unfortunately, you made the decision to be disgusted rather than view the event as a positive learning experience. We all make choices. I am sorry that UMI's sponsoring Ralph disgusted you. If corporations did not sponsor events such as Ralph's there would be a high shortage of clinics and master classes nation wide. Manufacturers have very few venues open to them for advertising their products and one of the most effective is through clinics and master classes. We attempt to provide an experience for musicians to learn and at the same time show our products. It is a win win situation for those with a positive attitude. I do not apologize for forwarding your comments since they were a response to UMI's sponsoring Ralph. As Ralph stated in his response, lighten up. Wish you the best and hope someday to see you at a commercially sponsored trombone event. Happy Holidays, Jimmie W. Edwards District Manager United Musical Instruments Seattle, Washington From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:01 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 18:16:52 EST From: ToElkMusic@cs.com To: ButteBlack@aol.com, trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Ralph Sauer Message-ID: <0.6633a901.258586e4@cs.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All- As someone who regularly presents Symposiums and clinics, I agree with this post. Without corporate support (and a lot of it coming from UMI over the 15 years I have been presenting such events), I would be unable to present artists like Mike Davis, Bill Reichenbach, Christian Lindberg, Michael Mulcahy, Ron Barron, Dave Taylor, nor would I have been able to host the 1997 ITF. I even had help from Yamaha sponsoring an IU trombone faculty member once at Kent State when I taught there (he was playing them at the time). He spoke about his horns too! We should be thanking these folks from the bottom of our hearts for their generosity. Please don't bite the hand that feeds!! Elliot Chasanov Host Illinois Trombone Symposium (1991-present) 1997 International Trombone Festival From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:01 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 18:24:53 EST From: BassBonist@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Ralph Sauer Message-ID: <0.4f831fcb.258588c5@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jimmie Edwards (of UMI) writes: << I am sorry that UMI's sponsoring Ralph disgusted you. If corporations did not sponsor events such as Ralph's there would be a high shortage of clinics and master classes nation wide. Manufacturers have very few venues open to them for advertising their products and one of the most effective is through clinics and master classes. >> Hear, hear! I worked for a major band retailer for over seven years and it is really a special event when a manufacturer will pick up the tab, ship instruments for demonstration, pay the clinician, and advertise the event. I don't know what was bugging Beth; I wasn't there. I have no qualms personally with producers of brass instruments getting their stuff "out there" where people can actually see it, hear it, try it. Seeing a picture in a magazine doesn't mean squat when you're looking for a good instrument! Some people can get uptight about a sales presentation with in the framework of a master class I suppose, but it is worth getting your knickers in a twist about it? :-) Matt Varho From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:01 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 18:31:53 -0500 (EST) From: Beth Lewis To: ButteBlack@aol.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Commercialism (was Re: Ralph Sauer) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 ButteBlack@aol.com wrote: > Beth: > > I am the guilty party. I forwarded your comments to Ralph since I know he is > not a member of the list. Since he is a clinician, he has a right to know > what response his clinics receive whether verbal or via Internet. Since I wasn't at that masterclass and wasn't referring to him or his masterclass alone (besides my mislead comments about his equipment choices), I don't know how my stated opinions were worth his time and attention. > As a > district manager for UMI, I monitor several lists including the trombone > list. When I read a comment pertinent to UMI, I forward to the company or to > persons I feel need to know. I also forwarded your message to Dean since he > also is a UMI clinician. Ralph asked Dean how to respond and Dean gave the > proper information. If you are angry about my forwarding your comments to > Ralph, that is your choice. I feel that maybe you should be angry at > yourself, you wrote the comments for all to see. > > As District Manager for UMI, I participated with Ralph at the Hayward State > Master Class with over 150 attendees. This was an event similar to the one > in D.C. None of the participates complained about Ralph demonstrating and > discussing what is new with Conn Trombones. Everyone was pleased with the > master class as demonstrated by the positive comments I received afterwards. > The Hayward State Trombone Day was a commercially sponsored event with over > 200 trombonists attending. Everyone who attended was aware of the commercial > aspect of the event. They were not disgusted but were thankful that A & G > Music and UMI sponsored the event. I would be willing to bet that the > attendees in D.C. felt the same way. The majority I'm sure could see an > opportunity to learn and experience a positive event. I would think that the > opportunity to see and hear someone of Ralph's stature would erase any > negative thoughts one would have of these events. Unfortunately, you made > the decision to be disgusted rather than view the event as a positive > learning experience. We all make choices. I never wrote that one could not learn from these "demonstrations." If I were interested in purchasing a new Conn, I would appreciate this type of thing. What DOES disgust me is that these events are advertized as "masterclasses," which is misleading about their true intent and focus. I wasn't at this masterclass so for all I know, Mr. Sauer may have actually discussed trombone playing in a way that did not necessarily have to do with playing/purchasing Conns, which would have made "masterclass" an apt name. Or perhaps when UMI announced this and other similar events as "masterclasses" they had in mind a 'masterclass to teach good salemanship as relates to musical instruments' or 'masterclass on the exciting new options of the Conn 88H.' If that qualifies as an accurate use for the word "masterclass" to UMI, so be it. But if that's what's going on they should advertize it as such, so that people who aren't interested in or already have a new 88H won't waste their time with traveling to such an event to hear details they already knew or didn't care to know in the first place. > > I am sorry that UMI's sponsoring Ralph disgusted you. If corporations did > not sponsor events such as Ralph's there would be a high shortage of clinics > and master classes nation wide. Manufacturers have very few venues open to > them for advertising their products and one of the most effective is through > clinics and master classes. We attempt to provide an experience for > musicians to learn and at the same time show our products. It is a win win > situation for those with a positive attitude. Sponsorship itself does not disgust me, but when music and good pedagogy take 'the back seat' to commercialism, there's a big problem. > > I do not apologize for forwarding your comments since they were a response to > UMI's sponsoring Ralph. As Ralph stated in his response, lighten up. Wish > you the best and hope someday to see you at a commercially sponsored trombone > event. If you were in Bloomington a few months ago, maybe you did. Beth > > Happy Holidays, > > Jimmie W. Edwards > District Manager > United Musical Instruments > Seattle, Washington > > From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:01 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 19:08:47 -0500 From: Feneley To: TBone List Subject: Re: the music thread Message-ID: <3854390F.1F0F219A@glccomputers.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4106CABCB475652C6C7DB8AE" Dean, you wrote:
  
You are doing yourselves a disservice by having such closed minds.  There are a
lot of great music makers out there that you will not open your ears to.

I feel sorry for you.
Feel sorry for me if you wish, Dean. I have only so much time to listen to music and I absolutely refuse to compromise my time to listen to what I personally consider junk whether it is a disservice to myself or not. Regardless of my intentions to either placate the others or lead "them", whoever "they" are, to what I might consider, at the least, better listening habits is a fruitless venture at best. If "they" don't bother me, I ain't gonna bother "them." But, let not "they" make a reference to what is "good" music in my earshot. That would/will be a tad risky. This would/will be when I turn to the "eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" behavior at which point the observors might feel sorry for both of us.

Ken Feneley - Clare
  From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:01 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 19:16:50 EST From: Posaune9@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Commercialism (was Re: Ralph Sauer) Message-ID: <0.7097b52a.258594f2@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, I agree with what Beth said about advertising in her last post. False advertising is very unprofessional. If indeed the Sauer Conn demonstration was advertised as a masterclass when the material presented wasn't masterclass info, then I think UMI is completely out on this one. It's like biting the hand that feeds you if you ask me. Seems to rather hurt business rather than help. Ryan Johnstone Curtis Institute of Music Philadelphia, PA (215) 496-9266 From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:01 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 19:29:43 EST From: BassBonist@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Commercialism (was Re: Ralph Sauer) Message-ID: <0.847c7cbe.258597f7@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beth Lewis wrote: << Since I wasn't at that masterclass >> I find it interesting how much you had to say about the "focus" of the clinic although you were not there. From what I understand, there was real musical information imparted. AND, let's not forget that when these clinics are advertised, there is no SECRET about who is sponsoring it. Right? << What DOES disgust me is that these events are advertized as "masterclasses," which is misleading about their true intent and focus.>> It's misleading when you know up front that this class is GOING TO BE sponsored by brand "x" ? How? Okay. Maybe you ought to sponsor a "real" unadulterated, noncommercial, whater-you-want-to-call-it, Master Class out of your own checkbook so that there will be no brand hawking. Sound like a plan? Of course, you won't charge people to attend, and promote the heck out of it so it will be well attended. I think we are all a bit overwhelmed this time of year. (Myself included!) My response is really meant to be tongue-in-cheek. Let's all declare a truce and stop this needless bickering and talk about something worthwhile; Music! Oops, time for me to go make a joyful noise! Later! Matt Varho From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:01 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 20:40:28 -0500 From: Steve Butterworth To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Commercialism Message-ID: <38544E8C.381DF160@istar.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As an active trombonist and a Disctrict Manager for a major manufacturer, I plan and execute over 100 "Masterclasses/Clinics" per year. As a musician with what I believe to be a solid philosophy of music education and a mind toward realism(someone's got to pay the bills), it is difficult to put together events without commercial support. First of all, what should we call any event? It will encompass a masterclass-people playing and being critiqued, a clinic-someone expounding upon their view of playing, an instrument display- where one or more manufacturers show up with $100,000 worth of horns hoping someone will at least try them if not buy them(it is extremely rare that someone buys at a show) and some music and CD displays. What should we call this event? You tell me? I'm not a marketing genius with some evil plan to force everyone to play the brand I represent. I'm a trombonist who loves the music and the people involved in the making of it. If our head accountants were to look at the viability of a lot of events, they'd pull the plug to be honest. But we convince them, because we believe ourselves, that these events are valuable to the participants and any event I can get involved in that supports our activity is a good one! It was a major manufacturer sponsoring a huge festival over 25 years that got me turned onto playing. I didn't event play that brand. If you think we(District Managers) are just out there to sell horns, you're wrong. Of course our job is to meet certain goals otherwise we'd have a bleak future in our present occupation. We're people just like you-we love our jobs, and we have the opportunity to direct our company's advertising $$$$$ towards supporting these activities. I do have a serious question though- What do we call these events? Trombone Rallies, Bone-Fests, Fete-des-bones? What! What type of event would you like to see a manufacturer or group of them support? My hat is off to the folks who organize any large scale event to support our activities, whether vocation or avocation. Take one on yourself! Cheers and Best Regards, Steve BassBonist@aol.com wrote: > Beth Lewis wrote: > > << Since I wasn't at that masterclass >> > > I find it interesting how much you had to say about the "focus" of the clinic > although you were not there. From what I understand, there was real musical > information imparted. AND, let's not forget that when these clinics are > advertised, there is no SECRET about who is sponsoring it. Right? > > << What DOES disgust me is that these events are advertized > as "masterclasses," which is misleading about their true intent and > focus.>> > > It's misleading when you know up front that this class is GOING TO BE > sponsored by brand "x" ? How? > > Okay. Maybe you ought to sponsor a "real" unadulterated, noncommercial, > whater-you-want-to-call-it, Master Class out of your own checkbook so that > there will be no brand hawking. Sound like a plan? Of course, you won't > charge people to attend, and promote the heck out of it so it will be well > attended. > > I think we are all a bit overwhelmed this time of year. (Myself included!) > My response is really meant to be tongue-in-cheek. Let's all declare a truce > and stop this needless bickering and talk about something worthwhile; > > Music! > > Oops, time for me to go make a joyful noise! Later! > > Matt Varho > > From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:01 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 22:02:00 EST From: Joestanko@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Looking for Bach bass trombone bell section Message-ID: <0.8176c7f2.2585bba8@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm looking for a Bach 50 B2 bell section only; 9 1/2 inch bell (yellow or gold). If someone has one for sale please email me privately. If anyone is looking for a new Bach bass trombone slide let me know; I may purchase a new 50 B and sell the slide separately. Joe Stanko From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:01 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 99 22:11:43 -0600 From: Peter Soukup To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Looking for Bach bass trombone bell section Message-ID: <199912130408.XAA15102@smtp6.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I may be interested. Let me know. It was so perfectly stated: >I'm looking for a Bach 50 B2 bell section only; 9 1/2 inch bell (yellow or >gold). If someone has one for sale please email me privately. If anyone is >looking for a new Bach bass trombone slide let me know; I may purchase a new >50 B and sell the slide separately. >Joe Stanko Pete Soukup psoukup@mindspring.com Grand Avenue Big Band The Moonlighters St. Andrew's Brass Naperville Area Trombone Ensemble DuPage Symphony Orchestra (alternate) West Suburban Symphony (alternate) From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:01 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 23:22:29 -0500 (EST) From: Beth Lewis To: BassBonist@aol.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Commercialism (has nothing to do w/Ralph Sauer) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 BassBonist@aol.com wrote: > Beth Lewis wrote: > > << Since I wasn't at that masterclass >> > > I find it interesting how much you had to say about the "focus" of the clinic > although you were not there. From what I understand, there was real musical > information imparted. AND, let's not forget that when these clinics are > advertised, there is no SECRET about who is sponsoring it. Right? > > << What DOES disgust me is that these events are advertized > as "masterclasses," which is misleading about their true intent and > focus.>> > > It's misleading when you know up front that this class is GOING TO BE > sponsored by brand "x" ? How? I haven't been to many corporate-sponsored masterclasses, but I know that there's a big difference between someone talking about the instrument maker AND THEN talking about technique, tone, practicing, etc, and someone who just goes on and on about how brand X is the greatest _for at least 90%_ of the "masterclass." Nascar, high school sports teams, recreational sports teams, orchestras of all levels, etc. may be sponsored by corporations or local businesses, but does that mean that they're going to turn the game, race, or concert into nothing more than an infomercial for their sponsor(s) (not even HAVE the game/race/concert)? If you're going to give a masterclass, then get the 'plugs' over with and give a masterclass! > > Okay. Maybe you ought to sponsor a "real" unadulterated, noncommercial, > whater-you-want-to-call-it, Master Class out of your own checkbook so that > there will be no brand hawking. Sound like a plan? Of course, you won't > charge people to attend, and promote the heck out of it so it will be well > attended. Maybe I've just been blessed with having wonderful teachers, but whatever happened to people doing these things out of the goodness of their hearts? I know this isn't always feasible, but it seems immoral when it gets to the point (this probably only applies to a very small minority) where masterclasses are done purely for the profit of the clinician or corporation. > > I think we are all a bit overwhelmed this time of year. (Myself included!) > My response is really meant to be tongue-in-cheek. Let's all declare a truce > and stop this needless bickering and talk about something worthwhile; Sorry, but I may keep this up until I unsubscribe for the holidays tomorrow night! :) Beth > > Music! > > Oops, time for me to go make a joyful noise! Later! > > Matt Varho > > > > From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:01 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 23:59:39 -0500 From: Steve Butterworth To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Midwest B&O Clinic Message-ID: <38547D3A.21C5F32C@istar.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I will be attending the Midwest B&O Clinic this week and would enjoy meeting anyone from the list. I will be at the Brand "Y" booth most of the time. For any Canadians attending, be sure to meet me as we are having a Candian get-together on Thursday night sponsored by the Canadian Band Association. Best regards, Steve Butterworth From ???@??? Mon Dec 13 08:11:01 1999 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 21:11:03 -0700 From: Galen Zinn To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Commercialism (has nothing to do w/Ralph Sauer) Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My 2 ¢ worth: I have deep respect for Mr. Sauer's skills, and I felt that his "master class" at Cal. State Hayward was interesting, and somewhat educational, but heavily weighted towards pointing out infinitesimally small nuances of tone quality supposedly possessed by the instruments sponsored by UMI. I was very hard pressed to hear any differences at all from one piece of equipment to another, even though many members of the audience were parroting their ooh's and ah's. When I asked him a question about circular breathing, he seemed to pass it off as irrelevant. Perhaps he never has a need for this technique as section leader and didn't feel qualified to answer? There definitely was a certain commercial aspect to the presentation. I felt that the Bill Watrous "master class" the following Wednesday afternoon at Cal. State Hayward was geared much more to the needs of the audience. He said that he is still playing the same instrument that he has been playing for most of his career. I don't recall him telling us what brand it was (although he probably did). That wasn't the focus of his presentation. He was very intent upon presenting what he felt to be important aspects of his trombone pedagogy, as well as responding to questions asked by the audience. He was very careful to meet the needs of the audience in between the telling of several lengthy jokes. The push was definitely not commercial. I happened to be in Dick Ackright's (one of the sponsors) shop a couple of days after these events and he asked me what I thought of it (he didn't know that Watrous had been in town). I told him that I thought they (UMI and Sauer) were trying too hard to push trombones. Dick told me that he is working on getting Joe Alessi out here for the next Cal. State Hayward Trombone Day ("master class"). I will be very interested to compare all three of these artists and the content of their presentations. Galen Zinn E-mail: zinger@musician.org =========================<>=========================== * PATIENCE * FANATICISM * PERFORMANCE * PERSEVERANCE * * DETERMINATION * OBSESSION * DEDICATION * * DISCIPLINE * DRIVING FORCE * * ATTITUDE * APTITUDE * * BALANCE * ==============<> E X C E L L E N C E <>=============== Burma Shave ¥ Listening to just one kind of music is like living in a mansion and spending all your time in the bathroom. (Where have you heard that before?) > From: Beth Lewis > Reply-To: ealewis@indiana.edu > Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 23:22:29 -0500 (EST) > To: "Trombones and related issues forum." > Subject: Re: Commercialism (has nothing to do w/Ralph Sauer) > > On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 BassBonist@aol.com wrote: > >> Beth Lewis wrote: >> >> << Since I wasn't at that masterclass >> >> >> I find it interesting how much you had to say about the "focus" of the clinic >> although you were not there. From what I understand, there was real musical >> information imparted. AND, let's not forget that when these clinics are >> advertised, there is no SECRET about who is sponsoring it. Right? >> >> << What DOES disgust me is that these events are advertized >> as "masterclasses," which is misleading about their true intent and >> focus.>> >> >> It's misleading when you know up front that this class is GOING TO BE >> sponsored by brand "x" ? How? > > I haven't been to many corporate-sponsored masterclasses, but I know that > there's a big difference between someone talking about the instrument > maker AND THEN talking about technique, tone, practicing, etc, > and someone who just goes on and on about how brand X is the greatest _for > at least 90%_ of the "masterclass." Nascar, high school sports teams, > recreational sports teams, orchestras of all levels, etc. may be sponsored > b