1) Bach 36 for Sale by Bob Koester 2) Re: Recordings of St Matthew Passion by Douglas Yeo 3) Re: Michael Davis Quintet by David Buckley 4) RE: Michael Davis Quintet by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 5) Re: Michael Davis Quintet by Tbcwes@aol.com 6) RE: Michael Davis Quintet by "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> 7) David Guion Microphones by Andrewsjon@aol.com 8) Michael Davis Quintet by SlideH@aol.com 9) RE: horn size, tone color, etc (was: Michael Davis Quintet) by Mike Coyle 10) Balance and Sound Systems (was Michael Davis) by "Daniel P. Sniderman" 11) Re: Michael Davis Quintet by Paul Riley 12) Heldenleben by Thomas Smee 13) re: Michael Davis Quintet by Elie A Harriett 14) Re: Bach and time by "Malone,Brian" 15) Re: Michael Davis Quintet by Bear0Bones@aol.com 16) Re: Michael Davis Quintet by Neobopr@aol.com 17) RE: Michael Davis Quintet by Dennis Clason 18) RE: Bach and time by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 19) Conn 52H by Bob Nicholson 20) RE: Bach and time by Mike Coyle 21) Crown tooth theory by Mike Coyle 22) Re: Michael Davis Quintet by Sequoia Middle School 23) RE: Crown tooth theory by REOnofreyJ@aol.com 24) Slide Rule Concert, Toronto, December 14, 1999 by Thomas Smee 25) Re: Conn 52H by sabutin@mindspring.com 26) Re: Conn 52H (clarification) by sabutin@mindspring.com 27) 52H by "Dean Hubbard" 28) Re: Michael Davis Quintet by "Daniel Pliskin" 29) RE: Bach and time by "Daniel Pliskin" 30) Bach and Space + One Piece by Larry & Carol Bronisz 31) Re: This Whole Music Thing.... To Bach and back. by "Matthew M. DeLoera" 32) by Chris Randolph 33) Re: Bach and time by "Kenneth Dowdy" 34) re. Authentic Performances by Chris Waage 35) Re: Michael Davis Quintet by David Buckley 36) Re: horn size, tone color, etc by David Buckley 37) Re: Michael Davis Quintet by David Buckley 38) Re: Conn 52H by eanogmus@netvision.net.il (Eliezer Aharoni) 39) Re: Conn 52H by Bob Nicholson 40) Re: horn size, tone color, etc by Mike Coyle 41) Re: re. Authentic Performances by Mike Coyle 42) Instrument Choices/Endurance (was Re: Michael Davis Quintet) by Beth Lewis 43) Re: Instrument Choices/Endurance (was Re: Michael Davis Quintet) by Mike Coyle 44) Career Decisions (orchestra vs. band/jazz) by Wayne Dyess 45) Fw: question about mouthpieces and bones by "Douglas Calvin" From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:16 1999 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 07:28:55 -0600 From: Bob Koester To: TROMBONE-L@LISTS.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Bach 36 for Sale Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991208072855.00ec1964@mail.spidertel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" FOR SALE: Bach 36 Serial No. 69656 (according to Bach's home page that indicates it was made between 1985 and 1990) Condition: Overall good. There is evidence that the bell throat was twisted and repaired. One small bump in the bell flare. Otherwise normal use. Slide (original standard weight) is very good. Lacquered brass finish. NO CASE Price: $600.00 US Terms: You send Cashier's Check, I pay shipping. Please reply privately. I don't have any pictures, it looks like every other 36 that hasn't been customized. The horn plays very well. I've used it in every imangineable context from Mozart to Motown and back. Since I'm primarily a bass trombonist, and most of my tenor work is either big band or other commercial I can manage with my bass and my Bach 12. Just don't need the 36. Thanks for your interest. Bob _______________________ bob koester mediation services, inc. bkoester@fixbusinessdebt.com From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:16 1999 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 09:32:25 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Recordings of St Matthew Passion Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Some queries have come by on recommended recordings of St. Matthew Passion. One of the great things about our world today is that you can go to a web site and hear samples of recordings before buying them. My favorite recording of the work is conducted by John Eliot Gardiner with the English Baroque Soloists and the Monteverdi Choir. Archiv 427 648-2 (3 CD) I find it to be splendid. For info (and sound clips), go to: http://www.towerrecords.com/product.asp?pfid=1196324 It's on sale for $41.97 Another list member just recommended to me another recording which he liked very much with Philippe Herreweghe conducting the Ghent Collegium Vocale, La Chapelle Royale Chorus Paris and La Chapelle Royale Paris You can get info (and sound clips) at: http://www.towerrecords.com/product.asp?pfid=1066103 It's $44.97 Both are performed on period instruments with small performing forces. The Tower website lists 94 CDs when you search for "Bach/Matthew" - many are excerpt recordings of the work, but it gives you an idea of how many conductors have wanted to try their hand at it. No lack of choices. Thanks to RealAudio, you get to try before you buy... -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:16 1999 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 09:41:00 -0500 From: David Buckley To: Christopher Smith Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Michael Davis Quintet Message-ID: <384E6DFC.C5A07081@sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christopher Smith wrote: > >>> David Buckley 12/07 3:11 PM >>> > Boy I do wish jazz guys would learn to play without mikes and drummers > would learn to balance. > > ++++++++ > Dave, > > If the sound is bad, the blame should go to the sound tech. People in the band can often not hear themselves, even if the balance is perfect in the room/hall. Part of being a musician is learning to balance with others. The minute you use amplification, as you said, you lose control of what is coming out. That said, the consensus of this list has been that very seldom do the sound techies get it right, even in major concert halls. What is the sense of all the serious attention to developing as a player if it does not get transmitted to the audience? > > > I never play with a mike unless it's a necessity (i.e. outdoor festival), and that's usually an unfulfilling musical experience. Once sound techs get involved, musicians lose control over dynamics. > > And inbalance is not usually due to drummers, but amplified bass or keyboards. In this particular case it was all the drummer's problem. I don't see this as uncommon. I have often asked drummers if their parts had volume markings. > If you perceive the drummer playing too loud, it may be because his stage monitor is blasting him with the miked/amplified instruments, throwing him off what the "real" sound level is. > > I'm all for ending indoor miking of horns. It's unnecessary and detracts from the music. I don't know why so many guys use mikes when they're not needed. Amen! > > > I suspect it's something that's arisen out of the same family of brass player neuroses that compel classical players to build cannonlike slide baritones and play mouthpieces which are too big for them and their horns. That's a low blow. My ears tell me that there are a large and growing number of absolutely wonderful classical players out there playing in the style the music requires and playing music that is worth listening to. Regards. Dave. > > > heh heh..... > > Chris > jazz guy > > www.geocities.com/~christo From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:16 1999 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 09:12:56 -0600 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Michael Davis Quintet Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > > > > I suspect it's something that's arisen out of the same family of brass > player neuroses that compel classical players to build cannonlike slide > baritones and play mouthpieces which are too big for them and their horns. > > That's a low blow. My ears tell me that there are a large and growing > number of absolutely wonderful classical players out there playing in the > style the music requires and playing music that is worth listening to. > There is something along this thread that I have always wondered. In most of the Jazz, Dixieland, and Big Band concerts that I have watched, the trombones are always playing. In most of the Classical performances that I have viewed, the trombones are mostly counting rests. In the former, I see mostly small bore trombones. The latter, nearly all large bore. Is there a relationship to the actual "lip time" of the performance and the size of the horn used? Or is it mostly a factor of the "tone color" that the various idioms are trying to achieve? BTW, this is an honest question and not intended to be the beginning of another "who's better" flame war, so please answer with due respect for "the other guy", whoever that may be. Ken Dowdy From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:16 1999 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:51:23 EST From: Tbcwes@aol.com To: davebuckley@sympatico.ca, trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Michael Davis Quintet Message-ID: <0.30531b2a.257fd87b@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/8/99 9:51:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, davebuckley@sympatico.ca writes: << I never play with a mike unless it's a necessity (i.e. outdoor festival), and that's usually an unfulfilling musical experience. Once sound techs get involved, musicians lose control over dynamics. >> I don't know about that. I have played with some very good Mikes. One of my favorite trombone players in Boston is Mike Epstein. Wes ;-) From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:16 1999 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:09:49 -0600 From: "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Michael Davis Quintet Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Would someone please change the subject line? The topic has long since ceased to have anything to do with the Michael Davis Quintet! ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ David Guion, Cataloger John Marshall Law School 315 S. Plymouth Ct. Chicago, IL 60604 Voice: (312) 427-2737 x 552 Fax; (312) 427-8307 "Outside of a dog, books are a man's best friend; inside of a dog, it's too dark to read"--Groucho Marx ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:16 1999 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 11:21:17 EST From: Andrewsjon@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: David Guion Microphones Message-ID: <0.c490f088.257fdf7d@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/8/99 10:11:00 AM Central Standard Time, 8guion@jmls.edu writes: << Would someone please change the subject line? The topic has long since ceased to have anything to do with the Michael Davis Quintet! >> Sorry David, just kidding around. From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:16 1999 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 11:33:30 EST From: SlideH@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Michael Davis Quintet Message-ID: <0.88462b10.257fe25a@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Guys: I must've been lucky - when this band played in Buffalo, they sounded fantastic. The rhythm section didn't overpower the horns. Each instrument was mic'ed and ampliphied, but in my opinion the sound technician did a good job of achieving a good balance. I did notice that the horn players did rely heavily on their microphones to play in the style they were using, but that's a personal styulistic concept. Some players prefer to play very lightly and let the mic do the work, and some prefer to play heavier without a mic. I don't want to get into that debate again... Anyway, getting back to the MD Quintet, the sound was excellent at the concert I attended. Sorry to hear that some of you didn't have the same experience - I was really thrilled with the concert I heard! My only complaint was the poor turnout for the Buffalo crowd - did they have good audiences where you guys were? Take care, John From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:16 1999 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 10:48:00 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: kdowdy@oppd.com Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: horn size, tone color, etc (was: Michael Davis Quintet) Message-ID: <199912081650.KAA05030@ties.k12.mn.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; types="text/plain,text/html"; boundary="=====================_6454506==_.ALT" Ken Wrote:

> is there a relationship to the actual "lip time" of the performance and the
>size of the horn used?  Or is it mostly a factor of the "tone color" that
>the various idioms are trying to achieve?  BTW, this is an honest question
>and not intended to be the beginning of another "who's better" flame war, so
>please answer with due respect for "the other guy", whoever that may be.
>
>       Ken Dowdy
>

Ken,

Good question.  I would have to say that I believe that horn size and design choice are based largely on the tone color one is trying to achieve for any given purpose.  Though, in general, I believe that the kind of facility and flexibility needed for jazz is far easier on a smaller horn and, obviously, the kind of sound needed in the orchestra is better achieved on a larger horn.  Larger horns and mouthpieces are more taxing to play and require more endurance, but, with the frequent rests in orchestral playing that is not as big a problem as it would be in jazz. So, in that sense, yes, I think that "lip time" does influence the decision.

The traditional jazz sound in America has almost always been a bright focused sound.  The orchestral trend for at least the second part of this century has been toward a broad, warm sound in soft playing and a massive projected sound in loud playing.  It is the second of these two types of playing that concerns me the most.  There has been a move on the direction of large equipment (horns and mouthpieces) that seems to have gotten way out of hand in some instances.  I have heard some trombone playing recently that was so over powering that the music made no sense.  The whole brass section was playing far too loud, but the trombones in particular were playing with such reckless abandon that it marred the performance horribly.  I know that insanely loud playing can be a helluva lot of fun, but it should be confined to non-performance situations.

Often, there seems to be a direct correlation between the amount of time spent playing and the obsession to be heard at all costs, even at the expense of the music - the "loud is good" mentality.  The jazz players I play with most often are far less concerned with equipment and more interested in the music overall than some orchestral players I have worked with over the years.  I have never met a jazz player (soloist at least) who felt the need to blow so loud that it presented the danger of causing structural damage to the concert hall.  I am NOT saying that all orchestral players are like this, on the contrary, there are many who have fine ears and are quite aware of what is going on around them, hence, they play at appropriate volume levels. And, (I'll say this just to avoid having someone flame me with it later) there are some jazz players who have marked lapses in taste as well. 

Some of the orchestral players I currently know seem to have far too much time on their hands and occupy that by obsessing over equipment. Most students go through this but most also grow out of it. I know that scenario well, I went through it to a degree myself.  For the record I should state that I played in orchestras both as a student and professionally for long enough to know that I was not going to be musically fulfilled for too long by waiting for Mahler's 3rd or 2nd to be programmed.  I simply got bored and took another route.  Please do not take my comments for insults to those who are playing in orchestras now.  I have the utmost respect for many of these people and think they are truly among the cream of the crop.  I'm simply stating that I found it was not for me (though, I must say, the money and relative security is a very welcome thing). 

I was trained in the orchestral tradition at Eastman when Don Knaub was still teaching there, so there was still a great deal of Remington influence.  The loud, boarish style that has come to be heard all to often these days was certainly not the style I was trained in.  I doubt if I could get past the first round of any audition these days based solely on my lack of bombast and sheer volume.  Doug Yeo has written an article that discusses the volume issue quite well, it is called "ME, MYSELF and I: Are Orchestral Brass Players Losing the Concept of Being Team Players?" and can be found at http://www.yeodoug.com/teamplayer.html

Well, Ken, I realize that I "went off" again and provided, I'm sure, far too much information than was necessary to give you my opinion on your question.  I apologize in advance.

Mike Coyle






At 09:12 AM 12/8/99 -0600, you wrote:
>> >
>> > I suspect it's something that's arisen out of the same family of brass
>> player neuroses that compel classical players to build cannonlike slide
>> baritones and play mouthpieces which are too big for them and their horns.
>>
>> That's a low blow. My ears tell me that there are a large and growing
>> number of absolutely wonderful classical players out there playing in the
>> style the music requires and playing music that is worth listening to.
>>
>       There is something along this thread that I have always wondered.
>In most of the Jazz, Dixieland, and Big Band concerts that I have watched,
>the trombones are always playing.  In most of the Classical performances
>that I have viewed, the trombones are mostly counting rests.  In the former,
>I see mostly small bore trombones.  The latter, nearly all large bore.  Is
>there a relationship to the actual "lip time" of the performance and the
>size of the horn used?  Or is it mostly a factor of the "tone color" that
>the various idioms are trying to achieve?  BTW, this is an honest question
>and not intended to be the beginning of another "who's better" flame war, so
>please answer with due respect for "the other guy", whoever that may be.
>
>       Ken Dowdy
>
From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:16 1999 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 11:04:00 -0600 From: "Daniel P. Sniderman" To: "Trombone List" Subject: Balance and Sound Systems (was Michael Davis) Message-ID: <002301bf419e$3a7ef420$6911e3d8@fuzzbone.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One thing to keep in mind - whenever amplification is being used (and sometimes even when not) the sound the musicians here on stage can be dramatically different than what the audience hears. This is especially true when there are monitors. A bad sound man (and sometimes just bad acoustics) can do more to ruin the listening (and performing!) experience more than an insensitive musician. Unfortunately (fortunately?) I had gigs the weekend the show came through Chicago - and missed it. But no one complained about the balance at any of the other performances - so I would tend to believe that the drummer himself wasn't at fault. There is no way for the musicians to know what the sound is like in the audience - they can only balance to what they hear on stage. I find it unlikely that a professional at the level to play in such a unit would "get carried away" one night and be at fault. I would guess that it's most likely that he was balancing to what he heard on stage... Dan From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 12:10:37 -0500 From: Paul Riley To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Michael Davis Quintet Message-ID: <384E910D.46F4A624@greenlinnet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is an interesting thread. Here's a hint for anyone dealing with an electronically amplified rhythm section. Have the musicians place their amplifiers so that the speakers point directly toward their faces. This can be facilitated by leaning the amps on a milk crates, road cases, etc. In fact many newer guitar, piano and bass cabinets are fashioned for just this purpose, and act more as an instrument monitor rather than a solo "public address" system. I've found this to be an effective method of bringing an electric musician's stage volume under control. It also allows the sound engineer to create the "house mix" without the interference of an overbearing stage volume. Paul L. Riley paul@greenlinnet.com From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 12:17:07 -0500 From: Thomas Smee To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Heldenleben Message-ID: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-disposition: inline Heldenleben ends with a big crescendo in the brass to a chord which dies away, providing a nice 'Hollywood' finish to the piece. It appears that this ending was not his first idea. I've been listening lately to the excellent Philadelphia/Sawallisch EMI recording, which omits the usual loud brass chords. The liner notes by Stephan Kohler say that the Richard Strauss Institute in Munich provided an autograph score for the recording. The autograph has none of the programmatic notes that we see so often. Kohler states: "There are numerous indications that it was not Strauss himself who formulated the well known headings to the various sections of the work but one of his friends and devotees. Friends were also responsible for persuading Strauss to revise the final bars. In the first, unpublished version, the work ends softly, dying away pianissimo, whereas the second, published version ends with some additional loud brass chords. In later years Strauss may have regretted authorizing this second version (of which no manuscript in his hand exists, incidentally). At all events, his biographer, Willi Schuh, records that he sat with Strauss listening to a rehearsal for a performance to be given in Zurich in 1946, and when the usual, loud ending came, Strauss murmured the sarcastic comment, "State funeral!" For this reason, and after studying the sources, Wolfgang Sawallisch decided to play the endiing in its original version in this performance." From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 11:34:49 -0600 (CST) From: Elie A Harriett To: Trombone-L Mailing List Subject: re: Michael Davis Quintet Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Depending on the situation, I think microphones can both hinder as well as enhance a trombonist's sound. I've played in a concert hall with absolutely beautiful accoustics and the trombone solo comes through perfectly without the aid of a microphone. In fact, the one or two times we added a microphone because we felt we needed it, the balance went all to heck. However, there are other places I've played, like outside, athletic arenas, and rooms that were obviously not designed to house a musical performance and I felt the microphone was needed. I guess the only way I would make a call like that is to find out the accoustic properties of the performance arena in advance and decide then whether or not to use microphones. I've usually been fortunate enough to play with rhythm sections that listen well and adjust to whatever situation they are in. But I too find a microphone to be a tool; like most tools you can choose to use it if it helps you or not use it if you don't need it. Regards, Elie ################################################ Elie A. Harriett Graduate Teaching Assistant - Instrumental Music University of Nebraska - Omaha PAC #236 60th & Dodge Sts. Omaha, Nebraska 68182-0139 From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 12:45:14 -0500 From: "Malone,Brian" To: Subject: Re: Bach and time Message-ID: <006001bf41a3$fc294120$6bbf5d18@neo.lrun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/7/99 Doug Yeo wrote: >Life is extraordinarily busy for me these days with a Boston Symphony >tour to NYC coming up this week, deadlines to meet for my new CD >release, conducting brass band concerts, etc. On Sunday, the BSO >brass section played at the NE Patriots game (and continued our >streak of Boston teams being unbeaten when we play the national >anthem...) So much to do, but there is always time for the important >things, like writing to this list. ... >But we live in a 6000 channel universe which competes for our >attention. This is not easy to do. This takes TIME> One post >commented that there is not time to spend with music that does not >immediately grab and affect. But I would argue there is always time >for what is important. My life is busy as well, and I now that I >MUST find time to refresh myself emotionally, spiritually, >relationally, and musically. Bach provides for me some of the most >potent refreshment I have ever found on all of those levels. Each day has hundreds of things competing for our attention and life's energy. It has been my experience that I have to take time out each day to "recharge my batteries" so that I can be (1) available to those I care about most and (2) able to participate fully in activities that I most care about. If I fail to do this, not only do I suffer, but so do those people close to me, and what I can accomplish is poorer for it. Music has always had the power to renew my energies, and Bach's music is at the top of a fairly long list. Oddly enough, though, it's the connections a certain piece will have with particular loved ones that give it even greater healing power. For example, my dad was an Irish fiddler who had the utmost respect for the musicianship of Yascha Heifetz in particular. My dad's love of music was my doorway into that world. Heifetz's performances of Bach's Chaconne from the Partita #2 were riveting every time I heard them, and always revealed something in the music I had not previously heard. Although my dad died almost 10 years ago, hearing an unaccompanied violin always reminds me of him and all he meant to our family. Spiritual, emotional, relational, and musical refreshment for certain. I wonder what people who are not so affected by music do to regain themselves. -- Brian Malone From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 12:59:43 EST From: Bear0Bones@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Michael Davis Quintet Message-ID: <0.5486b0cf.257ff68f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/7/99 12:34:05 PM, davebuckley@sympatico.ca writes: << I guess the percussion did not drown them out in Cleveland and the miking was somewhat close to being balanced, Unlike in Toronto. Boy I do wish jazz guys would learn to play without mikes and drummers would learn to balance. Dave Buckley. >> Hi Dave, Normally I wouldn't comment, but having been something other than just a "jazz guy" for so long, I have to say a couple of things about this balance issue. When one is trying to put together a tour of performances for a group, you can't always pick the venue, unless you're willing to just turn work down. Sometimes, you might end up playing in a hall that's more suited for chamber music. When you find yourself in a situation like this, the only thing to do is have a sound check and try to balance to music as well as possible. We did this on every concert that we played on these tours. Once you get on stage, you are in the hands of the sound person (someone who you probably just met). This band is not "The Rolling Stones" or "Quincy Jones", we don't have the budget to carry a sound man. Not that this would always fix the problem. Getting the stage balance to sound as good as the record balance is very hard. We use much better mikes in the studios that will handle a higher range of dynamics. We also have the option of completely controlling the levels and sound characteristics of all the other instruments. Ever since microphones were invented and then electronic instruments came along, we have been fighting this balance issue. I personally would rather not use mikes, because of what they do to one's sound, but once you have drums and electric bass in the mix, I don't see any way around it. If you didn't use sound "enhancment" in a lot of these "legit" halls-like Toronto and Univ. of Illinois-the music would sound like it was being played in a cave. It's very different to stand up in front of an orchestra and play the Thom Ritter George "Concerto" accoustically. I've looked ahead to some other posts and I can see that this is a burning issue with some people. So I'll just conclude by saying that both Mike Davis and I are very aware of the sound issue as it relates to amplification on stage and would only want it to be as natural and comfortable to listen to as possible. It seems that a few people thought this wasn't the case, particularly in the two most "concert" venues. I appoligize if anyone was disappointed with the quality of sound. I don't have the answers, I can only explain the reasons for the problem. We do our best. Bill Reichenbach From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 13:03:23 EST From: Neobopr@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Michael Davis Quintet Message-ID: <0.6d71bcd0.257ff76b@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Part of the problem with the wide array of consistency from one venue to another may lie in the fact that Mike and Bill are picking up a different Rhythm section in each city. Yamaha Artist/Clinician-Jeff Adams From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 11:09:32 MST From: Dennis Clason To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Michael Davis Quintet Message-ID: <199912081809.LAA100144@nestor.NMSU.Edu> Addressed to: kdowdy@oppd.com trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu ** Reply to note from DOWDY, KENNETH S 12/08/99 09:12am -0600 > There is something along this thread that I have always wondered. > In most of the Jazz, Dixieland, and Big Band concerts that I have watched, > the trombones are always playing. That's pretty much true of concert band and wind ensemble work, too. > In most of the Classical performances > that I have viewed, the trombones are mostly counting rests. In the former, > I see mostly small bore trombones. The latter, nearly all large bore. Is > there a relationship to the actual "lip time" of the performance and the > size of the horn used? Or is it mostly a factor of the "tone color" that > the various idioms are trying to achieve? BTW, this is an honest question > and not intended to be the beginning of another "who's better" flame war, so > please answer with due respect for "the other guy", whoever that may be. In part, it's a matter of homogenization of the orchestral world. If you listen to old recordings (50s) of French orchestras, you'll hear what are quite clearly three small bore tenors. At that time, the French used a tuba that was more akin to a euphonium (six or seven! valves to get the low range). But orchestras have become global, and the French (and Russians and British) are using instruments of essentially American design (if not American make!) If you consider the timbres available in brasswinds, there is no tenor/bass voice to match the bass/contra tuba. Scoring practices use the tuba as the bass/contra voice for the horns or the 'bones or the full brass section. Through various mishaps (I believe mostly a reaction to WW I and the mmmm, extravagant? resources called for by late romantics) the tenor tuba - euphonium never made it as a full-fledged member of the orchestra. There's a hole in the timbre palette waiting to be filled. And it's a pretty juicy hole. In American orchestras during the interwar and the immediate postwar period, players were using much smaller instruments. I heard an interview with Sy Zentner a bit back. Sy talked about a typical day being an LA Phil rehearsal session in the morning, a movie score in the afternoon, and recording with Mickey Katz in the evening. All on the same 'bone -- and Zentner didn't play a big bore. Chris Calicchio has Spike Wallace's Wallace-Williams: a straight tenor with in-slide tuning. It spec's out about like a King 3B. Spike was the LA Phil's principal trombonist into the 40s. Glenn Dodson played (and apparently still plays) a Conn 78H fitted with a 6.5 AL. Again, no bazooka. I recently played a King 3B in a pit orchestra. At intermission one of the El Paso S.O. trumpet players in the audience came back to find me. He complimented me on my "fine orchestral sound", and then asked what I was playing. I told him it was a 3B ... he shook his head a bit and said he thought that was what he saw. It's the player more than the axe. Dave Tall quoted Debra Taylor as saying, "It sounds like Dave playing an alto..." when Dave tried her new alto. When did the 88H (and later the 42B) become the ascendent trombones in the US? I point to two teachers: Emory Remington and Thomas Beversdorf. Both were heavily involved in the 88H, and both encouraged their students to use them. Remington used the 88H because it is flexible instrument, and he was unsure which students would end up playing professionally on tenor and which on bass. Now, Remington and Beversdorf were the two most important pedagogues in the last half of the twentieth century. Remington especially turned out a ton of students who were very attached to their 88Hs. Many of these students stuck with the 8(8)H even after specializing on tenor or bass. It was not unusual in the mid to late 60s to see a regional orchestra trombone section consisting of three 88Hs. I remember overhearing Dick Shearer (Kenton's last lead trombonist) at the Reno Jazz Festival. One of the big university bands was on-stage with a section of five 88Hs, and someone remarked about the sound of that trombone section. Shearer said, "Sounds like a herd of euphoniums to me." In the orchestra, there was no tenor tuba filling that timbral niche. A bass trombone partly fills it, but the tenors were infringing on the bass's tone colors. So the bass players respond by moving to bigger bells and mouthpieces ... Then conductors like Rostropovich say things like wanting their trombone section to roar like lions. So we respond by fitting 88H and 42B bells with bass slides, using bass mouthpieces on tenors ... I don't know where it ends. Where do you go when you look at the tenor player next to you and his instrument looks like yours? There has to be a distinction, doesn't there? So bass players go to dual bore and oversized bore slides, bigger bells. I don't think face time has much to do with it, really. Large bore trombones have been around for a very long time, but they weren't terribly popular until Remington and Beversdorf. Bach catalogs of the 60s and early 70s classed both the model 36 and 42 as large bore instruments. Arthur Pryor used Conn large bore instruments, but converted to small bores -- he felt the flexibility of the small bore was unmatched, if the player had the ability to exploit it. Speaking solely for myself, I like my tenors to sound like tenors, basses to sound like basses and euphoniums to sound like tenor tubas. Dennis -- Dennis L. Clason email: dclason@nmsu.edu Department of Economics / University Statistics Center New Mexico State University Las Cruces, New Mexico USA From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 12:16:43 -0600 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Bach and time Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > Spiritual, emotional, relational, and musical refreshment for certain. > > I wonder what people who are not so affected by music do to regain > themselves. > > -- Brian Malone > Ah, a beautiful question. Actually, there are many things. I live in a city now, and that has caused me to return to music as a source of rejuvenation and refreshment. My trombone has done a lot to keep me sane. But, there was once a time that I did not live in a city, and nature was much closer. I used to sit for hours in the woods just listening to the natural symphony. The works produced by the insects, birds, chattering squirrels and babbling brooks was often more beautiful than any of man's creations. No orchestra has ever been able to equal the sound of a thousand geese descending upon a feeding ground, or the playful chatter of three squirrels quarreling over a few fallen hickory nuts. And I have had few nights of sleep as restful as the few moments that I would drift off leaning on a tree next to a pond and hearing the chirping of small frogs answered by the thunder of a bullfrog. No laser light show can ever equal the splendor of a summer lightning storm, and compared to the crash of thunder, even the trombone must bow its head while God thunders from the heavens. And the mornings sitting on the shore of Lake Michigan watching the sun rise in a red sky, hearing the crash of the waves on the rocks are hard to beat by any movement of man's art. I would also often stop to stare at one solitary tree silhouetted against the morning sky on a bluff overlooking the lake. Once it was just me and that tree, at 20 below zero. I wondered if that tree were as lonely as it looked, and if it enjoyed my company. There were many days that I hated the walk back to my car knowing that I would have to shatter the silence and beauty of the moment with the start of my engine. Civilization sucks. A good book can also be a nice change of pace, and often you learn something in the process. But with three children running around a small house demanding my attention, I find little time to invest in the concentration required by reading a meaningful book. I am as opposed to "eye candy" as many on this list are to "ear candy". So, music is a very wonderful way to relax and unwind. But there are others. Ken Dowdy From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 02:27:18 +0930 From: Bob Nicholson To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Conn 52H Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi List, Any opinions on the new Conn 52H? How much difference would I see from a .547 bore to this dual bore.525/.547? Thanks for you help. Bob Bob Nicholson bobn@isn.net 168 Weymouth Street Charlottetown, P.E.I. Canada C1A 4Z3 Bass Trombone/Tuba - Maritime Brass Trombone/Bass Trombone - Jive Kings http://www.jivekings.com From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 12:30:07 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: kdowdy@oppd.com Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Bach and time Message-ID: <199912081832.MAA18676@ties.k12.mn.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ken, Your response reminds me of stories about Varese. He absolutely hated rural environments. Nature scared him silly and made him feel nervous and edgy. He found the silence to be errie and disconcerting. He felt at home in large urban centers only! Hence, he ultimately made NYC his home. He was known to stand and listen to the sound of heavy machinery at construction sites as you or I might listen to a string quartet, or a siren as we would listen to the Kings College Choir. His music certainly conveys this; some would say that pejoratively. Not me, however, I adore his music. Though he was surely an extreme example, it does go to show that we whacky humans have an amazing array of interests and things to which we are drawn. Mike At 12:16 PM 12/8/99 -0600, you wrote: > >> Spiritual, emotional, relational, and musical refreshment for certain. >> >> I wonder what people who are not so affected by music do to regain >> themselves. >> >> -- Brian Malone >> > Ah, a beautiful question. Actually, there are many things. I live >in a city now, and that has caused me to return to music as a source of >rejuvenation and refreshment. My trombone has done a lot to keep me sane. >But, there was once a time that I did not live in a city, and nature was >much closer. I used to sit for hours in the woods just listening to the >natural symphony. The works produced by the insects, birds, chattering >squirrels and babbling brooks was often more beautiful than any of man's >creations. No orchestra has ever been able to equal the sound of a thousand >geese descending upon a feeding ground, or the playful chatter of three >squirrels quarreling over a few fallen hickory nuts. And I have had few >nights of sleep as restful as the few moments that I would drift off leaning >on a tree next to a pond and hearing the chirping of small frogs answered by >the thunder of a bullfrog. No laser light show can ever equal the splendor >of a summer lightning storm, and compared to the crash of thunder, even the >trombone must bow its head while God thunders from the heavens. And the >mornings sitting on the shore of Lake Michigan watching the sun rise in a >red sky, hearing the crash of the waves on the rocks are hard to beat by any >movement of man's art. I would also often stop to stare at one solitary >tree silhouetted against the morning sky on a bluff overlooking the lake. >Once it was just me and that tree, at 20 below zero. I wondered if that >tree were as lonely as it looked, and if it enjoyed my company. There were >many days that I hated the walk back to my car knowing that I would have to >shatter the silence and beauty of the moment with the start of my engine. >Civilization sucks. > > A good book can also be a nice change of pace, and often you learn >something in the process. But with three children running around a small >house demanding my attention, I find little time to invest in the >concentration required by reading a meaningful book. I am as opposed to >"eye candy" as many on this list are to "ear candy". So, music is a very >wonderful way to relax and unwind. But there are others. > > Ken Dowdy > From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 12:55:34 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Crown tooth theory Message-ID: <199912081857.MAA21912@ties.k12.mn.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I ran across this post in the trombone-l archives and would like to know what others have to say about this. I happen to be one of those players who centers over the most prominent tooth (though I can play on the opposite side as well). I remember reading a story about Herbert Clarke which alleged that he could play equally well from one corner of his lips to the other. Anyway, here is the post: Subject: Re: Moving The Mouthpiece From: Tim Richardson Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 07:38:59 -0600 (CST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <199802021338.AA11531@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu> In-Reply-To: <34D5B8F7.F9943404@fuse.net> from "Dave Burch" at Feb 2, 98 07:15:52 am I had a conversation once with the author and proponent of the old Anatowind system (I can't recall his name. He claimed to work with most of the brass at Chicago Symphony, I never verified that either.) Anyway, he said nobody's mouth is truly symmetrical. Everyone had what he called a "crown tooth", which was usually one that protruded a tiny bit more than the others, or for whatever reason had become the center point of the embouchure. The moutpiece was then to be centered over the crown tooth. If yours was not, he would move it over an equal distance to the other side then let it move back. He further believed people with a mostly smooth front tooth lineup were better playing mellow instruments (euphonium, French horn) and people with a more pointed toothline were better off playing the more brilliant instruments (trumpet, trombone). yours, tim richardson From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 11:00:43 -0800 From: Sequoia Middle School To: Bear0Bones@aol.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Michael Davis Quintet Message-ID: <384EAADB.774DC68A@bcsd.k12.ca.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bear0Bones@aol.com wrote: > I appoligize if anyone was disappointed with the quality > of sound. I don't have the answers, I can only explain the reasons for the > problem. We do our best. > Bill Reichenbach What more needs, or can be said? Sometimes this world is more perfect than other times. Thanks Bill. Gary Maxwell Bass Trombone Bakersfield Symphony Orchestra From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 14:19:44 EST From: REOnofreyJ@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Crown tooth theory Message-ID: <0.ce7d8411.25800950@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim, I'd never given this theory much thought until I received your posting. However, as a (mostly) self-taught brass player (I learned to play in a marching band that required no previous musical experience), I was always told to not "play on your teeth". I still play, although I am very ammeter. In any event, I had some major dental work done a few years ago on my front teeth which changed not only the shape, but also the "crown tooth" from the left side to the right side of my mouth (installation of laminate veneers). At that time, I made no change in my embouchure. To this day I play no differently. This either points out my gross lack of experience, or blows the theory out of the water (at least for me). Will read other replies with interest. Rick Onofrey From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 14:57:46 -0500 From: Thomas Smee To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Slide Rule Concert, Toronto, December 14, 1999 Message-ID: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-disposition: inline Here's an announcement of our second annual trombone choir concert. As you will see, its a chop buster - as usual. ============================= Slide Rule Trombone Ensemble Concert Tuesday, December 14, 1999 The Slide Rule Trombone Ensemble, a group of 17 Toronto area trombonists, will be presenting a concert of trombone choir music on Tuesday, December 14, 1999 at 8:00 p.m. at the Church of the Redeemer, 162 Bloor Street West, Toronto (Bloor and Avenue Road). Admission: $10 at the door. See you there! Yamaha Music Canada is graciously assisting in putting on the concert and all proceeds of the concert are going to the Toronto Star Santa Claus Fund. Slide Rule was started in the fall of 1996 as a trombone quartet formed purely for the enjoyment of playing music at the highest possible level. Over time, the ensemble grew to 17 trombonists, but the original motivation of fun and excellence have been maintained. The ensemble performs original compositions for trombone ensemble by leading Canadian and international composers as well as transcriptions of works by composers such as Bach, Mozart, Gabrielli and Janacek. Included in the programme for the December 14 concert is the premiere of "Have Yourself a Christmas Song", specially arranged for Slide Rule by Rick Wilkins, a well-known Toronto tenor saxophonist, composer and arranger. The members of the Slide Rule Trombone Ensemble are Toronto area professional orchestral and free-lance trombonists: Tenor trombones: Susan Dustan, Kevin Hayward, Darren Jukes, Gordon Meyers, Dave Moulton, Jan Owens, David Pell, Mike Polci, Brad Ritson, Jamie Stager, Ian White, Max Williams, John Wilson. Bass trombones: Peter Collins, Bob Hamper, Don Rayment, Tom Smee. The music director of Slide Rule is Mischa Rohac. Misha is pursuing his Master's degree in conducting at the University of Toronto, where he studies with Raffi Armenian. Misha has participated in the International Workshop for Conductors in the Czech Republic and the Orchestras Canada workshop in Ottawa. Programme: Processional Fanfare Elizabeth Raum Haec Dies Byrd (Premru) Ave Maria Biebl (Manduca) Crucifixus Lotti (Williams) Canzona Septimi Toni Gabrielli (Leno) Sonata Pian e Forte Gabrielli (Parker) Messiah Overture Handel (Wilson) Adagio from Symphony No. 7 Bruckner (Friedman) Adagio Barber (DePaolo) -------------------Intermission Sinfonietta (1st mov't.) Janacek (Rohak) Christmas Medly Arr. Reichenbach Have Yourself a Christmas Song Arr. Wilkins Crucifixus Bach (Wehr) Toccata & Fugue in Dm Bach (Sharp) From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 15:10:19 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: bobn@isn.net Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Conn 52H Message-ID: <199912082012.PAA17956@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:27 AM 12/9/99 +0930, you wrote: >Hi List, >Any opinions on the new Conn 52H? How much difference would I see from a >.547 bore to this dual bore.525/.547? Thanks for you help. > >Bob > >Bob Nicholson >bobn@isn.net >168 Weymouth Street >Charlottetown, P.E.I. >Canada C1A 4Z3 ====================== I can't comment directly on the 52H because I've never played the horn as it's being shipped, but a prototype .525/.547 slide mated to a bell that they had not named yet played very, very well when I tried it at the factory this spring. I play a two '30s Conn slide tuning 525/.547 horns (one w/F attachment, one w/out) for more than half of my regular work, so I CAN comment to some degree on the differences between a straight .547 horn and a 525/.547 dual bore model. I play mostly jazz, latin, studio and Broadway work in NYC, w/an occasional orchestral or smaller brass ensemble gig thrown in, and for all of that work except a real, top level large symphonic situation or a very bright, aggressive rock/big band lead/high and loud latin gig (where I prefer to play smaller equipment), I find the 525/.547 bore to be absolutely ideal. (Straight .525 bore works almost as well in some scenes, better in others [less work to play high, loud, and fast, basically], but I haven't found one I like.) Your question is regarding the difference between a 525/.547 horn and a more or less typical .547 bore symphonic horn. My answer would be that the dual bore horn tends to point up and brighten its sound at a relatively lower volume level...say just past a good strong MF...than a good .547 horn, and it also tends to play slightly "brighter" in the low ranges. This is desirable when you're playing jazz and latin music particularly, especially as a soloist. (Also a good thing for playing trombone solos in a more orchestral style.) It is also marginally easier to play, both at volume, in terms of length of phrases, and in terms of range, endurance, and mobility, than a .547 horn. The drawbacks...at least w/the bored out 6 1/2AL m'pce I'm using, I don't believe any 525/.547 I've ever played would be able to match the astonishing volume levels of a great contemporary symphonic trombone section, and unless it were playing the lead parts, it would be difficult to REALLY make it blend w/a section of .547s and symphonic basses at ANY volume. That said...go try them. Only you can REALLY tell. Later... S. From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 15:20:01 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Cc: bobn@isn.net Subject: Re: Conn 52H (clarification) Message-ID: <199912082021.PAA06598@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sorry...on rereading this post, it appear I was unclear in the third paragraph, where I say "and for all of that work except a real, top level large symphonic situation or a very bright, aggressive rock/big band lead/high and loud latin gig (where I prefer to play smaller equipment)". It sounds as if I prefer to play smaller equipment in a symphonic situation as well as in the others, and of course, this is not the case. Mainstream orchestral trombone playing today demands at LEAST a .547 instrument...maybe even a .547/.565 on second parts. Later... S. >====================== > > I can't comment directly on the 52H because I've never played the horn >as it's being shipped, but a prototype .525/.547 slide mated to a bell that >they had not named yet played very, very well when I tried it at the >factory this spring. > > I play a two '30s Conn slide tuning 525/.547 horns (one w/F attachment, >one w/out) for more than half of my regular work, so I CAN comment to some >degree on the differences between a straight .547 horn and a 525/.547 dual >bore model. > > I play mostly jazz, latin, studio and Broadway work in NYC, w/an >occasional orchestral or smaller brass ensemble gig thrown in, and for all >of that work except a real, top level large symphonic situation or a very >bright, aggressive rock/big band lead/high and loud latin gig (where I >prefer to play smaller equipment), I find the 525/.547 bore to be >absolutely ideal. (Straight .525 bore works almost as well in some scenes, >better in others [less work to play high, loud, and fast, basically], but I >haven't found one I like.) > > Your question is regarding the difference between a 525/.547 horn and a >more or less typical .547 bore symphonic horn. My answer would be that the >dual bore horn tends to point up and brighten its sound at a relatively >lower volume level...say just past a good strong MF...than a good .547 >horn, and it also tends to play slightly "brighter" in the low ranges. This >is desirable when you're playing jazz and latin music particularly, >especially as a soloist. (Also a good thing for playing trombone solos in a >more orchestral style.) It is also marginally easier to play, both at >volume, in terms of length of phrases, and in terms of range, endurance, >and mobility, than a .547 horn. > > The drawbacks...at least w/the bored out 6 1/2AL m'pce I'm using, I >don't believe any 525/.547 I've ever played would be able to match the >astonishing volume levels of a great contemporary symphonic trombone >section, and unless it were playing the lead parts, it would be difficult >to REALLY make it blend w/a section of .547s and symphonic basses at ANY >volume. > > That said...go try them. > > Only you can REALLY tell. > > Later... > > S. > From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 12:49:56 -0800 From: "Dean Hubbard" To: Subject: 52H Message-ID: <009601bf41bd$cca5b720$e3bd183f@default> Friends, In March of this year I did a clinic for the California Music Educator's Association in Ontario, CA. I made it to Ontario just fine, my trombone ended up in Hawaii! I went over to the UMI booth and borrowed their 52H. At that time it was the only one in existence. I found the horn to be exceptional in every respect. It was made well, played well and was competitively priced. The slide required no break in. (Thank goodness, I only had 45 minutes to prepare the instrument and myself.) I own an Elkhart 79H and use it in the San Francisco theaters. The 52H was superior to my 79H. I do agree with Sabutin that it may not be the ideal horn for extremely loud symphonic playing, but it sure played nice. I've recommended this horn to several of my students and colleagues. Truly, Dean Hubbard Bondean@msn.com From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 12:59:17 PST From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Michael Davis Quintet Message-ID: <19991208205917.66373.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Again??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Bring on the napalm! One thing that's been overlooked in this conversation is that the performers don't have a clue of what the mix sounds like out in the audience. You need the sound person to get the balance right. Unfortunately, their sense of what sounds good isn't necessarily what sounds good to you. Other factors come into play. In some venues, an important objective is to make sure that the music is LOUD. If the trombone microphones are feeding back, then they get turned down. The mix suffers but most people in the audience still like it because the rest is still LOUD. Many hot groups bring along their own sound people. Unfortunately, this is usually a queue for the in-house sound person to take a break, but that's not how to get the sound right. Your sound person and the in-house sound person, working together, can usually get the sound right. Now, your sound person doesn't need to be acquainted with all of the mixing boards. He/she just needs to have an opinion about what sounds good. Usually, someone's spouse, who'd be at the gig anyway, will suffice. All it takes is a bit of an introduction, to get the two people together. So, please, if you're going to be using microphones, take some responsibility for the way your group sounds. It's not enough to just blame the sound people. It definitely reflects back on the musicianship of the group. DanP ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 13:10:48 PST From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Bach and time Message-ID: <19991208211048.57152.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Ken, >Ah, a beautiful question. Actually, there are many things. I live >in a city now, and that has caused me to return to music as a source >of >rejuvenation and refreshment. My trombone has done a lot to keep >me sane. >Civilization sucks. I see equilibrium, here. You're balancing out the suction, of living in the city, by blowing on a trombone? DanP ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 14:52:34 -0700 From: Larry & Carol Bronisz To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Bach and Space + One Piece Message-ID: <4.1.19991208143229.00a5ff00@mail.trail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This didn't post yesterday for some reason, so this so this is take two: in Re: This Whole Music thing regarding Bach's St. Matthew Passion, etc Richard Human, Jr. wrote: >Lewis Thomas of the Sloan-Kettering Institute answered, when he was asked >what message he though that human beings should send out into space included >with the best of our accomplishments, "I would send the works of Johann >Sebastian Bach." He then paused and said, "But that would be boasting." On Sept. 5, 1977, the Space probe Voyager was launched into space with a "golden record" which includes images, sounds, languages and music from earth. It left our solar system on Feb. 17, 1998. You can see the listing of the 27 musical tracks at: http://vraptor.jpl.nasa.gov/voyager/music.html Bach is the only composer with 3 tracks. (Sorry Doug, none from St. Matthew) Beethoven got two. Louis Armstrong got one with his Hot Seven - John Thomas on trombone. (I think they should have chosen a later Louis track w/ Jack Teagarden on trombone, but that's the way it goes.) So out of 27 tracks, Bach has three. Maybe Lewis Thomas has friends at NASA/JPL or perhaps they share the same tastes. If I could choose one piece it would be Dvorak's Symphony #9 "From the New World", but then I was "brainwashed" by it as a child when my parents got their first stereo. With Slavic heritage, I make a deep, emotional, playful, and at times, intellectual connection with the piece. Most of the connection however relates to feelings. - Larry From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 16:55:14 -0500 From: "Matthew M. DeLoera" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: This Whole Music Thing.... To Bach and back. Message-ID: <384ED3C2.726C0CC4@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know this is a little off-topic, but I wanted to mention anyway.. Someone mentioned Joshua Rifkin... I *highly* recommend his Bach recordings. I have the Bach B-Minor Mass on CD, performed by his ensemble - just 4 singers and additional soloists. I find it to be much more intimate, and it's easier to dissect the parts. I used it in preparation to sing the Mass with a local ensemble, and it really worked wonders for my practicing. hmm... I wonder if there's a Swingle version of the B-Minor...? *grin* - Matthew From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 18:15:14 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Randolph To: TROMBONE-L@LISTS.MISSOURI.edu Message-ID: <991208181514.20463932@ab.edu> i was wondering if any person out there listenes, and enjoys, ray anderson. i am much more of a classical musician myself but when it comes to jazz i am alwayw intrigued by his music and his technical prowess. i was hoping someone could offer some insight into his techniques and his equipment such as the type of trombone he plays and mutes. From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:37:30 -0600 From: "Kenneth Dowdy" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Bach and time Message-ID: <00ce01bf41d5$33504000$093c103f@default> Dan, You know, I never looked at it that way before, but I guess you are right. I will have to think more on this later. Right now I am listening to a CD of Kaspar Forster's music. There are no trombones, and that lowers the air pressure somewhat, but the situation is suitably salvaged by Roland Wilson's beautiful playing of the cornetto and the voices of David Cordier and Harry van der Kamp. The low end is held up by a Viol de Gamba and a Violone as well as a Dulcian. There is also a Great Bass Dulcian (kind of like a contrabassoon). I guess that I can survive an hour or two without hearing a trombone. This will hold me over until "Urbie Green and his Big Beautiful Band" comes in. Ken -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Pliskin To: Trombones and related issues forum. Date: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 3:11 PM Subject: RE: Bach and time > >Ken, > >>Ah, a beautiful question. Actually, there are many things. I live >>in a city now, and that has caused me to return to music as a source >of >>rejuvenation and refreshment. My trombone has done a lot to keep >me sane. > > >>Civilization sucks. > > >I see equilibrium, here. You're balancing out the suction, of living in the >city, by blowing on a trombone? > >DanP > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 18:35:25 -0600 From: Chris Waage To: Trombone-L Subject: re. Authentic Performances Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" So, what all the hoopla is saying is that my Walter/Wendy Carlos "Switched On Bach" isn't an authentic performance on a period instrument? ;-) Chris _____________________________________________ Chris Waage basstbn@waageworks.com http://www.waageworks.com "Wisdom comes from Knowledge. Knowledge comes from Good Judgement. Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement." _____________________________________________ From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 18:55:22 -0500 From: David Buckley To: kdowdy@oppd.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Michael Davis Quintet Message-ID: <384EEFEA.5F8075C3@sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Listen to Nitzan Haroz or Joe Alessi or Alain Trudel or Christian Lindberg or a whole bunch of other guys in recital and you will never question their chops. Some orchestra charts use a lot of brass, some only a little but the notes you get are usually meaningful and important and the quality of much of the most commonly played repertoire is superb. The size of the horn is purely a colour thing. Most orchestral guys will use 3 or 4 different horns depending on the music. Obviously many find jazz charts satisfying. I find most of them trite. I marvel at the players ability to create music on the go but wish they would start with better music in the first place. And as you can tell, I really get ticked when really good players using their own rhythym section brought from New York for the job, don't bother to see that we in the audience can actually hear them play. Oh well, that is probably more than enough from me on this topic. Dave. "DOWDY, KENNETH S" wrote: > > > > > > There is something along this thread that I have always wondered. > In most of the Jazz, Dixieland, and Big Band concerts that I have watched, > the trombones are always playing. In most of the Classical performances > that I have viewed, the trombones are mostly counting rests. In the former, > I see mostly small bore trombones. The latter, nearly all large bore. Is > there a relationship to the actual "lip time" of the performance and the > size of the horn used? Or is it mostly a factor of the "tone color" that > the various idioms are trying to achieve? BTW, this is an honest question > and not intended to be the beginning of another "who's better" flame war, so > please answer with due respect for "the other guy", whoever that may be. > > Ken Dowdy From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 19:17:13 -0500 From: David Buckley To: astro@pconline.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: horn size, tone color, etc Message-ID: <384EF508.E7163C0C@sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------C9A47DBDCC528262BBA1792B" Interesting post Mike. Were you at Eastman with my old friend Doug Burden? I did get the impression though that Knaub was a lot more aggressive than Remington who seemed to me in his late days to be very resrained and also a leader in the bigger mouthpiece trend. A few other comments below.

Mike Coyle wrote:

 Ken Wrote:

> is there a relationship to the actual "lip time" of the performance and the
>size of the horn used?  Or is it mostly a factor of the "tone color" that
>the various idioms are trying to achieve?  BTW, this is an honest question
>and not intended to be the beginning of another "who's better" flame war, so
>please answer with due respect for "the other guy", whoever that may be.
>
>Ken Dowdy
>

Ken,

Good question.  I would have to say that I believe that horn size and design choice are based largely on the tone color one is trying to achieve for any given purpose.  Though, in general, I believe that the kind of facility and flexibility needed for jazz is far easier on a smaller horn and, obviously, the kind of sound needed in the orchestra is better achieved on a larger horn.  Larger horns and mouthpieces are more taxing to play and require more endurance, but, with the frequent rests in orchestral playing that is not as big a problem as it would be in jazz. So, in that sense, yes, I think that "lip time" does influence the decision.

The traditional jazz sound in America has almost always been a bright focused sound.  The orchestral trend for at least the second part of this century has been toward a broad, warm sound in soft playing and a massive projected sound in loud playing.  It is the second of these two types of playing that concerns me the most.  There has been a move on the direction of large equipment (horns and mouthpieces) that seems to have gotten way out of hand in some instances.  I have heard some trombone playing recently that was so over powering that the music made no sense.  The whole brass section was playing far too loud, but the trombones in particular were playing with such reckless abandon that it marred the performance horribly.  I know that insanely loud playing can be a helluva lot of fun, but it should be confined to non-performance situations.


That is why conductors get paid the big bucks. Imbalance is solely the responsibility of the conductor. They are the only persons in a position to tell how everything fits. I've been asked by conductors to play quieter and asked to play louder. Sometimes I've even been told the volume was correct. Personally I appreciate that feedback from conductors and miss it when it is not given. Doesn't mean to say that sometimes I don't think the conductor is out of his/her mind but they are responsible for the balance, not me.

 

Often, there seems to be a direct correlation between the amount of time spent playing and the obsession to be heard at all costs, even at the expense of the music - the "loud is good" mentality.

That seems to be stretching things.
 The jazz players I play with most often are far less concerned with equipment and more interested in the music overall than some orchestral players I have worked with over the years.
Oh really?
I have never met a jazz player (soloist at least) who felt the need to blow so loud that it presented the danger of causing structural damage to the concert hall.
My experience in a big band led by a Berklee grad many years ago was that I have never been asked to play so loud in my life. And then when we got to the job there was a mike 6" from my bell. Only time in my life I have blown as loud as I could and not been able to hear what was coming out the end of the horn. Again, only doing what I'm asked to do. Obviously from your experience, it's not always like that but that seems closer to the norm than sensitive artistry.
I am NOT saying that all orchestral players are like this, on the contrary, there are many who have fine ears and are quite aware of what is going on around them, hence, they play at appropriate volume levels. And, (I'll say this just to avoid having someone flame me with it later) there are some jazz players who have marked lapses in taste as well.

Some of the orchestral players I currently know seem to have far too much time on their hands and occupy that by obsessing over equipment.

Probably true but what else can you do during all those rests?
Most students go through this but most also grow out of it. I know that scenario well, I went through it to a degree myself.  For the record I should state that I played in orchestras both as a student and professionally for long enough to know that I was not going to be musically fulfilled for too long by waiting for Mahler's 3rd or 2nd to be programmed.  I simply got bored and took another route.
Agree with you on this. Personally I have only come to orchestra late in life so it is pretty new but unless I did my other brass and concert band playing, orchestra work at a community level would be pretty bleak. I've found even the top guys enjoy the chance to do brass choir stuff to get a good blow.
Please do not take my comments for insults to those who are playing in orchestras now.  I have the utmost respect for many of these people and think they are truly among the cream of the crop.  I'm simply stating that I found it was not for me (though, I must say, the money and relative security is a very welcome thing).

I was trained in the orchestral tradition at Eastman when Don Knaub was still teaching there, so there was still a great deal of Remington influence.  The loud, boarish style that has come to be heard all to often these days was certainly not the style I was trained in.  I doubt if I could get past the first round of any audition these days based solely on my lack of bombast and sheer volume.  Doug Yeo has written an article that discusses the volume issue quite well, it is called "ME, MYSELF and I: Are Orchestral Brass Players Losing the Concept of Being Team Players?" and can be found at http://www.yeodoug.com/teamplayer.html

Well, Ken, I realize that I "went off" again and provided, I'm sure, far too much information than was necessary to give you my opinion on your question.  I apologize in advance.

Mike Coyle


regards to all.

Dave Buckley.
  From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 19:31:28 -0500 From: David Buckley To: Neobopr@aol.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Michael Davis Quintet Message-ID: <384EF860.FE0FF038@sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually no, they brought their own. Used 3 in different parts of the country. Dave. Neobopr@aol.com wrote: > Part of the problem with the wide array of consistency from one venue to > another may lie in the fact that Mike and Bill are picking up a different > Rhythm section in each city. > > Yamaha > Artist/Clinician-Jeff Adams From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 04:08:29 +0200 From: eanogmus@netvision.net.il (Eliezer Aharoni) To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Conn 52H Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Hi List, >Any opinions on the new Conn 52H? How much difference would I see from a >.547 bore to this dual bore.525/.547? Thanks for you help. > >Bob > Hi Bob Please tell those of us who don't know about this new horn some more details - Bell size, does it have an F attachment? If so - what type of valve/wrap? Thanks Eliezer Aharoni, Bass Trombonist, Jerusalem Symphony POB 1066 Mevaseret Zion ISRAEL 90805 Phone 972-2-5341333 From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:53:10 +0930 From: Bob Nicholson To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Conn 52H Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi again, Here are the specs on the new Conn 52H (directly from the UMI website). CONN Artist, .547" (13.89mm) bore with F attachment, 8-5/8" (219mm) rose brass bell, .525"/.547" dual bore slide, lacquer finish, 6-1/2ALS mouthpiece, woodshell case. Thanks to those who have responded to my initial question so far. Bob >>Hi List, >>Any opinions on the new Conn 52H? How much difference would I see from a >>.547 bore to this dual bore.525/.547? Thanks for you help. >> >>Bob >> > >Hi Bob > >Please tell those of us who don't know about this new horn some more >details - Bell size, does it have an F attachment? If so - what type of >valve/wrap? > >Thanks > >Eliezer Aharoni, Bass Trombonist, Jerusalem Symphony >POB 1066 Mevaseret Zion ISRAEL 90805 >Phone 972-2-5341333 Bob Nicholson bobn@isn.net 168 Weymouth Street Charlottetown, P.E.I. Canada C1A 4Z3 Bass Trombone/Tuba - Maritime Brass Trombone/Bass Trombone - Jive Kings http://www.jivekings.com From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 20:16:06 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: horn size, tone color, etc Message-ID: <199912090219.UAA02806@newton.pconline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; types="text/plain,text/html"; boundary="=====================_22226542==_.ALT" Dave,

1.      Doug Burden is not a familiar name to me. 
2.      Yup, Knaub was far more aggressive than Remington - I was very fortunate to have studied with an extremely fine player who had studied with Remington 10 years prior to my going to Eastman.  He was truly an artist and a very intelligent and sensitive musician - he was a pretty strict adherent to the Remington principles.
3.      The jazz I was talking about was, to use your term, "sensitive artistry" - why do anything else?  I was talking about small ensemble work in which I mostly play piano (quintet, sextet, I don't do the big band thing very often, but I can easily see that you're probably right about some moron asking you to blow your head of in the interest of generating excitement   :)  happens all the time.
4.      I knew people would take exception to this post, but I was too tired to edit out the personal opinion stuff  :)

Mike C.

At 06:17 PM 12/8/99 , you wrote:

Interesting post Mike. Were you at Eastman with my old friend Doug Burden? I did get the impression though that Knaub was a lot more aggressive than Remington who seemed to me in his late days to be very resrained and also a leader in the bigger mouthpiece trend. A few other comments below.

Mike Coyle wrote:
Ken Wrote:

> is there a relationship to the actual "lip time" of the performance and the
>size of the horn used?  Or is it mostly a factor of the "tone color" that
>the various idioms are trying to achieve?  BTW, this is an honest question
>and not intended to be the beginning of another "who's better" flame war, so
>please answer with due respect for "the other guy", whoever that may be.
>
>       Ken Dowdy
>

Ken,

Good question.  I would have to say that I believe that horn size and design choice are based largely on the tone color one is trying to achieve for any given purpose.  Though, in general, I believe that the kind of facility and flexibility needed for jazz is far easier on a smaller horn and, obviously, the kind of sound needed in the orchestra is better achieved on a larger horn.  Larger horns and mouthpieces are more taxing to play and require more endurance, but, with the frequent rests in orchestral playing that is not as big a problem as it would be in jazz. So, in that sense, yes, I think that "lip time" does influence the decision.

The traditional jazz sound in America has almost always been a bright focused sound.  The orchestral trend for at least the second part of this century has been toward a broad, warm sound in soft playing and a massive projected sound in loud playing.  It is the second of these two types of playing that concerns me the most.  There has been a move on the direction of large equipment (horns and mouthpieces) that seems to have gotten way out of hand in some instances.  I have heard some trombone playing recently that was so over powering that the music made no sense.  The whole brass section was playing far too loud, but the trombones in particular were playing with such reckless abandon that it marred the performance horribly.  I know that insanely loud playing can be a helluva lot of fun, but it should be confined to non-performance situations.


That is why conductors get paid the big bucks. Imbalance is solely the responsibility of the conductor. They are the only persons in a position to tell how everything fits. I've been asked by conductors to play quieter and asked to play louder. Sometimes I've even been told the volume was correct. Personally I appreciate that feedback from conductors and miss it when it is not given. Doesn't mean to say that sometimes I don't think the conductor is out of his/her mind but they are responsible for the balance, not me.
 

Often, there seems to be a direct correlation between the amount of time spent playing and the obsession to be heard at all costs, even at the expense of the music - the "loud is good" mentality.
That seems to be stretching things.
The jazz players I play with most often are far less concerned with equipment and more interested in the music overall than some orchestral players I have worked with over the years.
Oh really?
I have never met a jazz player (soloist at least) who felt the need to blow so loud that it presented the danger of causing structural damage to the concert hall.
My experience in a big band led by a Berklee grad many years ago was that I have never been asked to play so loud in my life. And then when we got to the job there was a mike 6" from my bell. Only time in my life I have blown as loud as I could and not been able to hear what was coming out the end of the horn. Again, only doing what I'm asked to do. Obviously from your experience, it's not always like that but that seems closer to the norm than sensitive artistry.
I am NOT saying that all orchestral players are like this, on the contrary, there are many who have fine ears and are quite aware of what is going on around them, hence, they play at appropriate volume levels. And, (I'll say this just to avoid having someone flame me with it later) there are some jazz players who have marked lapses in taste as well.

Some of the orchestral players I currently know seem to have far too much time on their hands and occupy that by obsessing over equipment.
Probably true but what else can you do during all those rests?
Most students go through this but most also grow out of it. I know that scenario well, I went through it to a degree myself.  For the record I should state that I played in orchestras both as a student and professionally for long enough to know that I was not going to be musically fulfilled for too long by waiting for Mahler's 3rd or 2nd to be programmed.  I simply got bored and took another route.
Agree with you on this. Personally I have only come to orchestra late in life so it is pretty new but unless I did my other brass and concert band playing, orchestra work at a community level would be pretty bleak. I've found even the top guys enjoy the chance to do brass choir stuff to get a good blow.
Please do not take my comments for insults to those who are playing in orchestras now.  I have the utmost respect for many of these people and think they are truly among the cream of the crop.  I'm simply stating that I found it was not for me (though, I must say, the money and relative security is a very welcome thing).

I was trained in the orchestral tradition at Eastman when Don Knaub was still teaching there, so there was still a great deal of Remington influence.  The loud, boarish style that has come to be heard all to often these days was certainly not the style I was trained in.  I doubt if I could get past the first round of any audition these days based solely on my lack of bombast and sheer volume.  Doug Yeo has written an article that discusses the volume issue quite well, it is called "ME, MYSELF and I: Are Orchestral Brass Players Losing the Concept of Being Team Players?" and can be found at http://www.yeodoug.com/teamplayer.html

Well, Ken, I realize that I "went off" again and provided, I'm sure, far too much information than was necessary to give you my opinion on your question.  I apologize in advance.

Mike Coyle


regards to all.

Dave Buckley.
 


From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 20:23:24 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: basstbn@waageworks.com Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: re. Authentic Performances Message-ID: <199912090227.UAA03357@newton.pconline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Oh, they're authentic performances alright, AND on period instrument - it's just the wrong period ;) Mike At 06:35 PM 12/8/99 , you wrote: >So, what all the hoopla is saying is that my Walter/Wendy Carlos "Switched >On Bach" isn't an authentic performance on a period instrument? > >;-) > >Chris >_____________________________________________ >Chris Waage basstbn@waageworks.com > http://www.waageworks.com > >"Wisdom comes from Knowledge. > Knowledge comes from Good Judgement. > Good Judgement comes from Experience. > Experience comes from Bad Judgement." >_____________________________________________ > From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 23:44:02 -0500 (EST) From: Beth Lewis To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Instrument Choices/Endurance (was Re: Michael Davis Quintet) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This never showed up in my inbox, so I'm re-sending it. Sorry if it's a repeat. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- On Wed, 8 Dec 1999, David Buckley wrote: > Listen to Nitzan Haroz or Joe Alessi or Alain Trudel or Christian Lindberg >or a > whole bunch of other guys in recital and you will never question their chops. I think the original question was not directed at how well mainstream orchestral players play, but at how long they are required to play at any one time and what that has to do with their choice of equipment. With the exception of times when they are featured in a concerto or when pieces like some Bruckner or Mahler symphonies (etc.) are performed, the amount of endurance required by this gig is pretty darn low. Although this may be an exception and certainly not a rule, the CSO trombone section gave themselves at LEAST a five minute break in between each chart at their recital here at IU, not because they thought that what they had to say about the music was all that important, but because they NEEDED the frequent breaks (I took the constant shaking-out of the left hands and "horse lips"--has anyone come up with a better name for this??-- as proof of this). Charlie Vernon's recital also went like this. There's no doubt about how well they play. Back to the original question, of course jazz players need to have more endurance than orchestral players (nearly all the time). The same trombonists in wind ensembles, brass quintets, brass bands... (basically anything without strings). Equipment, in the comparison between jazz and orchestral playing, reflects that somewhat, but it's more of accidental correlation in the orchestral field (does anyone really think about how they're going to fare when they have to play for more than a few minutes at a time when they show up with a 3G?) Beth > Some orchestra charts use a lot of brass, some only a little but the notes you > get are usually meaningful and important and the quality of much of the most > commonly played repertoire is superb. The size of the horn is purely a colour > thing. Most orchestral guys will use 3 or 4 different horns depending on the > music. > > Obviously many find jazz charts satisfying. I find most of them trite. I >marvel > at the players ability to create music on the go but wish they would start >with > better music in the first place. And as you can tell, I really get ticked when > really good players using their own rhythym section brought from New York for > the job, don't bother to see that we in the audience can actually hear them > play. > > Oh well, that is probably more than enough from me on this topic. > > Dave. From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:17 1999 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 22:52:12 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: ealewis@indiana.edu Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Instrument Choices/Endurance (was Re: Michael Davis Quintet) Message-ID: <199912090455.WAA13257@newton.pconline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Excellent post, Beth. I couldn't agree more. MC At 10:44 PM 12/8/99 , you wrote: >This never showed up in my inbox, so I'm re-sending it. Sorry if it's a >repeat. >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >On Wed, 8 Dec 1999, David Buckley wrote: > >> Listen to Nitzan Haroz or Joe Alessi or Alain Trudel or Christian Lindberg >>or a >> whole bunch of other guys in recital and you will never question their chops. > >I think the original question was not directed at how well mainstream >orchestral players play, but at how long they are required to play at any >one time and what that has to do with their choice of equipment. With >the exception of times when they are featured in a concerto or when >pieces like some Bruckner or Mahler symphonies (etc.) are performed, the >amount of endurance required by this gig is pretty darn low. Although this >may be an exception and certainly not a rule, the CSO trombone section >gave themselves at LEAST a five minute break in between each chart at >their recital here at IU, not because they thought that what they had to >say about the music was all that important, but because they NEEDED the >frequent breaks (I took the constant shaking-out of the left hands and >"horse lips"--has anyone come up with a better name for this??-- as proof >of this). Charlie Vernon's recital also went like this. There's no >doubt about how well they play. Back to the original question, of course >jazz players need to have more endurance than orchestral players (nearly >all the time). The same trombonists in wind ensembles, brass quintets, >brass bands... (basically anything without strings). Equipment, in the >comparison between jazz and orchestral playing, reflects that somewhat, >but it's more of accidental correlation in the orchestral field (does >anyone really think about how they're going to fare when they have to play >for more than a few minutes at a time when they show up with a 3G?) > >Beth >> Some orchestra charts use a lot of brass, some only a little but the notes you >> get are usually meaningful and important and the quality of much of the most >> commonly played repertoire is superb. The size of the horn is purely a colour >> thing. Most orchestral guys will use 3 or 4 different horns depending on the >> music. >> >> Obviously many find jazz charts satisfying. I find most of them trite. I >>marvel >> at the players ability to create music on the go but wish they would start >>with >> better music in the first place. And as you can tell, I really get ticked when >> really good players using their own rhythym section brought from New York for >> the job, don't bother to see that we in the audience can actually hear them >> play. >> >> Oh well, that is probably more than enough from me on this topic. >> >> Dave. > From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:18 1999 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 23:31:32 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess To: kdowdy@oppd.com Cc: Trombone-L Subject: Career Decisions (orchestra vs. band/jazz) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Friends, This discussion has made a number of jumps... was Michael Davis, then a discussion of performing with P.A. systems, and now this. You guys are fun! Ken Dowdy wrote this response to someone elses comments on the subject: (this first part isn't Ken)---------> > > I suspect it's something that's arisen out of the same family of brass > > player neuroses that compel classical players to build cannonlike slide >> baritones and play mouthpieces which are too big for them and their horns. >> >> That's a low blow. My ears tell me that there are a large and growing >> number of absolutely wonderful classical players out there playing in the >> style the music requires and playing music that is worth listening to. >> > There is something along this thread that I have always wondered. >In most of the Jazz, Dixieland, and Big Band concerts that I have watched, >the trombones are always playing. In most of the Classical performances >that I have viewed, the trombones are mostly counting rests. In the former, >I see mostly small bore trombones. The latter, nearly all large bore. Is >there a relationship to the actual "lip time" of the performance and the >size of the horn used? Or is it mostly a factor of the "tone color" that >the various idioms are trying to achieve? BTW, this is an honest question >and not intended to be the beginning of another "who's better" flame war, so >please answer with due respect for "the other guy", whoever that may be. > > Ken Dowdy I see this as an honest question. I know, because I have often given this serious thought (especially so when I was in college). I had this burning desire to play professionally, but my experiences with orchestras in those days was not nearly as good as my experiences with bands and jazz in particular. That is... until I attended the Aspen School of Music. That pretty much turned my head around. Playing with a really GOOD orchestra was a whole 'nuther thing than what I was experiencing at school. So I gave fleeting thoughts to a professional orchestral career as a life-goal. But then thought, "nawwwww." I personally (that's ME) didn't get the same thrills that I got from PLAYING in band and jazz band. I love to PLAY. I don't especially love to sit and count rests. But like I said -- that's ME! So when I made the final audition and was selected into "the World finest" United States Navy Band, it was a thrill of a lifetime. I still view it as such. It was one of the greatest things that ever happened to me. That military experience, I truly believe, opened many doors for me. By the time I was about to graduate from college, my goals had shifted more toward a teaching career. But thanks to the draft and the Vietnam War, I went to Washington, D.C. instead of to the classroom (or nearest bandhall). Personally, I LOVED my 4 years with the band. I was ready to sign the dotted line for another 4 years, which would have most certainly have sealed my fate for a career in the military music program. But my wife was an only child and was terribly homesick. So our compromise was that I would get out of the Navy and try my hand at teaching. If I didn't like it or missed playing too much, we would move back to D.C. and that would be that. Al Beck, the Assistant Leader of the Band at the time, even told me that they would "hold a seat" for me should I change my mind. I got the feeling they didn't make that offer with everybody. But I had proven myself as section leader and one of only 4 tour soloists -- so I felt privileged at this kind offer. I also felt a sense of security in my future. Nice, indeed! The rest, as they say, is history. I took a good, solid and well-established junior high band job in southeast Texas and have been here ever since. From day one, I was offered a position at Lamar University to be their adjunct instructor of trombone. They had never had a trombone playing trombone teacher before (ain't THAT sad?). I did that for 2 years while leading my junior high band to all sorts of honors, including the coveted Sweepstakes award (yes, Virginia -- my band marched at marching contest. We had 9th graders, too). We also played music like "The Trombone King", a transcription from the Verdi "Requiem", and Alfred Reed's "The Music Makers." Then I was offered the full-time position as Instructor of Trombone and Assistant Marching Band Director at Lamar, and I've been here ever since. That was in 1977. I am now full professor, and have served as Associate Director of Bands, have directed the Concert Band, the Pep Band, the Marching Band, 2 jazz bands, and an assortment of music education classes. My current primary responsibilities are Director of Jazz Studies and professor of trombone. Never a dull moment. Not only that, but I feel that I have the best of both worlds. Perhaps I have the best of ALL worlds. I play in a really good regional orchestra. We import a majority of our strings from the Houston area. I can get my orchestral kicks and it feels pretty good. But I also have plenty of other playing opportunities, as well. ...opportunities that wouldn't present themselves if I were teaching public school. For instance, here is a list of my playing experiences recently: Faculty Brass Quintet -- weddings, recitals, school concerts, etc. Symphony of Southeast Texas -- my orchestra "fix" Guest artist -- most recently with the Grapevine H.S. jazz band Soloist -- recitals, orchestra, jazz band, band. Concert Band of Southeast Texas (semi-pro) Wayne Dyess Orchestra -- 17-piece professional big band Isle of Capri "Reading" big band -- "kicks" band The Heartbeat Band -- R&B "soul" band (more FUN; no music) Freelance work -- November included the Supremes and Temptations Gulfcoast Trombone Band -- includes Dean McCarty (list member) (5 bones and rhythm; a jazz group) Gulfcoast Trombone Choir -- we had 30 at the last meeting with Tom Izzo, guest Jimmy Simmons Combo -- straight ahead combo jazz. More FUN! "Just Friends" featuring Darrell Holt -- 6-piece band; society gigs. And I'm sure I have left something out. Oh yes -- those yearly tours with Keith Brion and the New Sousa Band and my sub-work with the Brass Band of Battle Creek! How could I possibly forget THAT fun????? After playing with a GOOD orchestra (back to that Aspen Music School experience), my "take" on orchestral playing changed. Now, I love it all. But I am happiest in a band. Perhaps because of my extensive and positive experiences in band. Perhaps because the trombone is on my face most of the time. But I am also most challenged by jazz and improvisation, so I enjoy that as well. Mostly, however, I just LOVE playing. And yes -- I also LOVE teaching! The good Lord put me right where he wanted me. And I'm happy with His decision! Keep blowin'! --Wayne Dyess _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ Wayne Dyess, Ed.D. Tel. +1-409-880-8146 _/ _/ Lamar University Music Dept. _/ _/ P.O.Box 10044, Beaumont, TX.77710 _/ _/ _/ _/ United Musical Instruments (UMI) _/ _/ "If it sounds good, it is good." -Duke Ellington _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ Old trombone players never die; They just slide away! From ???@??? Thu Dec 09 07:45:18 1999 Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 00:38:21 -0500 From: "Douglas Calvin" To: Subject: Fw: question about mouthpieces and bones Message-ID: <003101bf4207$9b812680$6147f7a5@sunnyside> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (I hope this goes through this time) Hello again, This is quite the discussion group! I'm having a blast reading all these and even more, feeling and hearing a lot of improvement in my horn playing. You all are inspiring! My horn is a '69 Conn 14H -- in need of some fixing up of dents, etc. I'm using a Bach 6 1/2 AL mouthpiece. It all seems to be working alright, but I'm a complete novice about all these things. Is this horn and mouthpiece the best combo for playing jazz, funk and salsa? (serious range and high notes needed) Are there other mouthpieces I should try? What inexpensive) horns would be an improvement over mine, or should I just get mine fixed up? Thanks, Douglas Calvin