TROMBONE-L Digest 1528 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: It's Not Elitism, It's Snobbism by "wayne e. collins" 2) Re: It's Not Elitism, It's Snobbism by Steve Butterworth 3) Snobbism?, Slobbism. by The Crow 4) Our thread on responding to music by Douglas Yeo 5) re. Digest Archives by Listmonitor Trombone-L 6) Re: Our thread on responding to music by "Michael W. Millar & Dava S. Millar" 7) Re: Our thread on responding to music by David Buckley 8) Re: trbn xmas music by Hornman179@aol.com 9) elitism?! Do you want the best? by Donn Schaefer 10) Re: Our thread on responding to music by Dave Tall 11) RE: Our thread on responding to music by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 12) Re: "snob" & "It's Not Elitism, It's Snobbism" by "Michael P. Coyle" 13) by "Dale M. Hudoba" 14) RE: Our thread on responding to music by Douglas Yeo 15) personal issue as a musician by Dale 16) Re: "snob" & "It's Not Elitism, It's Snobbism" by Chris Waage 17) Banal Things, (Metalugist's Muse) by Galen Zinn 18) lavender brass by "Douglas Calvin" 19) Re: Banal Things, (Metalugist's Muse) by Paul Riley 20) Re: personal issue as a musician by "Joe L. Norcross" 21) Re: Our thread on responding to music by Stephen Troy 22) Re: Our thread on responding to music by daboneman 23) Re: mouthpieces by Farquhar3@aol.com 24) RE: Banal Things, (Metallurgist's Muse) by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 25) Re: Our thread on responding to music by MBennetts@aol.com 26) quote found [Was: Help needed by Howard Weiner 27) A cell phone thrill! by Pat and Joe Chapman 28) RE: by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 29) Responding to Music by "Jim Tempest" 30) bass mpc query by Bruce Tracy 31) Re: Responding to Music and The Next Generation by "Rodney Ellard" 32) Re: personal issue as a musician & lavender brass by "Michael P. Coyle" 33) Re: advertising your beliefs by "Brian Shaw" 34) Re: advertising your beliefs by "Michael P. Coyle" 35) Re: Responding to Music and The Next Generation by Sequoia Middle School 36) Robert King has passed away by Douglas Yeo 37) RE: advertising your beliefs by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 38) Re: by "Daniel Pliskin" 39) December 11th Memorial Jazz for Bassist Ray Brown by will connelly 40) Re: Raph's Dance Band Reading by kingbone@earthlink.net 41) Re: OK Guys! by Jay Heltzer 42) Re: trbn xmas music by Trmbman@aol.com 43) Re: trombone FAQ by "Richards" 44) Edwards and rotary valves? by Beth Lewis 45) Re: Edwards and rotary valves? by James Scott 46) My apologies by kingbone@earthlink.net 47) Dale's dilema by Angie Brunk 48) Re: Dale's dilema (lengthy) by Tbcwes@aol.com From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:40 1999 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:43:21 -0500 From: "wayne e. collins" To: "t-bone" Subject: Re: It's Not Elitism, It's Snobbism Message-ID: <014d01bf3d8b$fbd741c0$6fac2ad1@johnny> Two words--Lotsa Polka ;) w ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary D. Maxwell To: Trombones and related issues forum. Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 1:03 AM Subject: Re: It's Not Elitism, It's Snobbism > A middle school band playing anything recognizable. > > Gary Maxwell > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Chris Waage wrote: > > > A high school marching band playing "The Hits of Tom Jones." > > > > ;-) > > > > Chris > From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:40 1999 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 07:48:19 -0500 From: Steve Butterworth To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: It's Not Elitism, It's Snobbism Message-ID: <3847BC13.5D2DACA@istar.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It doesn't matter what piece a middel school band plays-Louie, Louie; Clarinet Allegro, or Hogans Heroes March(my personal favourite in grade 7-great Baritone/Euphonium part!) as long as they play it with a sense of line! I've heard it done before! No, Really! Steve From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:40 1999 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:18:51 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) From: The Crow To: trombone-l Subject: Snobbism?, Slobbism. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Ok- I'm really going to dive in at the deep end here. I guess I'm what you could call a partially uncultured music slob. I do indeed listen to classical music- I love stravinsky's ballets and I adore the Planets, pictures at an Exhibition and La Mer- to name but a few- Oh and Bruckner 4. mmmmmmm However- as a long haired uni student from England I have to admit that I listen to a lot of 'ear candy' although I view it as 'higher class' ear candy- alternative stuff such as Leftfield and 'guitar band' that I feel can play a decent song. Jazz though- remains my great love, big band or bebop, esp. JJ. Say no more. (opinion levels- goin down.) ---------------------- Tim Budd "I don't have a solution but I admire the problem." "References: none, I've left a path of destruction behind me" From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:40 1999 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 08:48:35 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Our thread on responding to music Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" The conversation on the list regarding how and why people respond to music is one that has been fascinating. Some strong opinions have been flying around as well which is never a bad thing, but it is a little unsettling to see accusations of "snobbism" and "elitism" creeping in as well. Such charges are simply name calling as they take on only what the person doing the name calling wants them to mean. Interestingly, Richard Human's lengthy post (he is probably right, many people likely trashed it because it was long, but it was worth it - dig it out!) hasn't generated any list responses (perhaps people have written him privately). I've wanted to jump in on this thread but haven't had time, this response is going to be written over a period of time. I'd like, however, to take Richard's message as a jumping off point, but begin with a few general comments. I think we (musicians, artists, those who appreciate such) need to be careful when discussing WHY we think people DO what they do or WHY they LIKE what they like. Music does not contain any "Truth" (with a capital "T") statements. It is so inextricably tied up with our own personal tastes, wants and desires. Passion runs high as well as music has a clear objective force and a less clear subjective force. Chris wrote: >If the >audience walks away going "Huh?" at the end of the performance, there are >only two possible causes: > 1. The music was performed badly. > 2. They were unprepared for what they heard. And he was correct, I believe, in later adding a third cause: The music may be bad (poorly conceived, realized, constructed, performed). Of course, when making such a statement, we immediately run into the same problem we have in defining socially accepted behavior: "Who decides if it is bad?" For social issues, people turn often to time honored books on religion and ethics, even to "natural law" but it still comes down to SOMEONE making a decision to impose SOMETHING on others. Many may be pleased with the decision, but others will not. With music, we can't turn to the Bible or Koran or Marcus Aurelius. We are left with making discerning statements based on knowledge and informed opinion. Too, it is possible to make a judgment that something is "bad" and still like it - that happens all the time. Most people who watch the Jerry Springer show know that it's stupid and a farce, certainly not uplifting in any sense of the word and probably a waste of time. But they like it because they like it - and they don't need any more justification than that. You probably don't find email fora discussing the finer points of the show, its positive influence on society, etc (well, then again....). But when we come to art (small "a"), passions become inflamed as we take our informed opinions and then apply them to things that other people like. I mentioned yesterday that I consider the St. Matthew Passion of JS Bach to be the crowning achievement in western classical music. Now, by my saying that (even with a similar endorsement from many other musicians whom I respect) I am expressing my opinion, however informed it may be. But there is a reason for my opinion, and it is not because I am a snob or an elitist. I have a tremendous love (not simply respect or tolerance - respect and tolerance are the lowest bar we ever have to climb over - love is the highest) for particular expressions of many kinds of music. I can say there are examples of just about every kind of musical expression I've ever heard - as limited as my experience with over 2000 LPs, tapes and CDs in my collection and a lifetime of listening and performing as well - which I have found moving and profound. But I am still left gaping with amazement at the St. Matthew Passion. Why? I won't tell you why. If you agree with me and my assessment, you know why. If you don't, my writing about it won't convince you. You need to experience it yourself. Notice I said "experience" - I didn't say listen to it, or hear it. "Experience" is a totally different thing. A few weeks ago, I was driving in my car with our youngest daughter, a HS senior and a trumpet player. My car has a 6 CD changer and usually has a pretty eclectic collection of discs in it - at the moment it contains some Hilliard Ensemble singing medieval and other music, some John Williams film music played by various ensembles, two Randy Newman albums and the first disc of the Bach Bminor Mass. As Robin and I were driving, I put on my only Philip Glass CD - one of ballet music including a piece known as "Glass Piece #2 - Facade." If you have the disc (on CBS at the time I bought it) you know the piece. Robin was fascinated by it - 7 minutes of contradiction. Yesterday, she was thinking of how to grapple with an assignment in English class where she had to "react" in some way to Albert Camus' "The Stranger." Then it hit her - her response was Philip Glass. Contradiction upon contradiction. All I heard last night was "Glass Piece #2" - over and over - I couldn't get away from it. It was both infuriating and soothing. But most exciting was that Robin was responding in a strong way to an important novel in a musical way. Now, some people think Glass is boring or stupid, others think he's a genius and exciting. Your call. But what I tried to explain to Robin was that whether you like it or not, you can still discern whether is it "good" or not. There are objective criteria you can apply to the construction and performance. And when that is done, you can pronounce it "good" or not BASED UPON THE CRITERIA YOU HAVE LEARNED TO APPLY (which will never be all the criteria you could possibly apply) and THEN move on to whether you like it or not. In the case of the Glass piece, Robin's fascination was that she both loved and loathed it. The contradiction was the fascination, and it made a perfect mirror for Camus' story. Which brings be back to the St. Matthew Passion. I've never met Richard Human (or most of the people on the list) but we've gotten to know each other through email and some off list discussions of what makes life worth living and what makes music "happen." I think his comments on the difference between "understanding" and "appreciating" are very well put and can be a challenge to any of us who are working in ANY field of the arts (creating, re-creating or simply enjoying). Richard wrote (and all quotations of messages herein are his): >I believe, personally, that >humans have a natural and instinctive attraction to things of higher meaning >and purpose. Somewhere in all of us is that ability to "know" when >something is good and right separate from any outside judgement or >evaluation. I would like to think that the best music is in itself without >understanding because it is at the same time beyond comprehension and devoid >of the necessity for it. I know that doesn't make sense in words - but I >hope that all of us have felt those times when music has taken the express >route past our ears and brain and made a mad dash for our hearts and souls. Do you know what this means? The first time I heard the St. Matthew Passion I knew this. And I would guess most reading this can define a moment, a piece, a place, a sight that has resonated with this thinking. Be careful - the statement is not elitist. It is not elitist or snobbish to say something is good. David Guion made some insightful comments about Meyerbeer, and Bach vs. Telemann, etc. which spoke (to those who read carefully what he said) about the difference between that which was popular and liked because it was familiar or socially acceptable vs. that which might be misunderstood and less appreciated but actually be a higher thing. We unfortunately live in a world where it it getting increasingly difficult to pronounce something as being "good" or "better" than something else. The knee jerk reaction to such statements is that "you're being judgmental" or, in the case of this list discussion, "snobbish or elitist." It would seem the greatest sin of our time is to believe that something is better than something else, or, ever worse, that something is True (with a capital "T"). But our uncomfortableness over this does not diminish the fact that such judgments can be made and in many cases, should be made. There are, for instance, musical instruments which are simply bad. They are poorly constructed, fall apart, need frequent repair. Sometimes they are sold at incredibly outrageous prices because the snake oil salesman who is hawking it convinces people that it is really great despite the obvious flaws. But now and then, a little boy stands up and says, "Look! The emperor has no clothes!" and we suckers who have been hypnotized by the snake oil man realize that our inability to discern and make a judgment has caused us to walk around naked ourselves! >I have reached a point in my own life where I searching not in the notes, >and not even in the sounds, for music. I am looking for that "thing" that >causes the music to exist in the first place. I care less about what the >composer penned and more about what she felt - what was the source of the >creative utterance? In some cases, my understanding of music hinders that >search, and in others it helps. As a musical pluralist, I resonate so strongly with this I can't tell you. I just finished working with a student on 2 movements of a Bach Cello Suite (this part of this post is being typed in a 1 hour break between teaching lessons). She played it very well, but we spent the lesson on trying to look at the WHY of the expression which is far more transcendent than the WHAT of the music. It's what Doug Wright calls "getting off the page." Sam Burtis talks about it all the time, in fact, any fine artist talks about it. That's ALL they talk about. Forget about the stupid trombone, this is Bach we are talking about. Don't be casual about it, recognize that we have a RESPONSIBILITY to represent the music in a loving way. How you sit, what you say, and what you express are terribly, terribly important. I've often said that I will never go to hear a person play a trombone. I couldn't care less about the trombone, it has very little meaning to me. It's a piece of brass and I know many people can play it very well. So what? Who cares? Who cares if "Bluebells" can be played so fast you brain is a blur? Who cares if so-and-so is a "monster" and can obliterate an orchestra in a single note? Who cares? What DO I care about? I want to hear an ARTIST who happens to express himself on the trombone. I don't care if the person is 9 or 99 - it is the expression of self AND life experience that resonates with me more and more as I get older, whether in a symphony orchestra, a shout band, a trombone ensemble with bata, or a choir of monks. I just recorded a new CD which I hope will be out in the spring. It is a collection of hymn tune and other songs which I have played in churches for over 3 decades. I'm sure it will disappoint people who were hoping for something with flash and technique. You won't find it in this new album (which will be called, "Cornerstone" - you can see some preliminary information at http://www.yeodoug.com/cornerstone.html). What you will hopefully hear is what happened at the session - a meeting of minds between me and my 4 accompanists, some arrangements which capture the true essence of what is being expressed, and the passionate voice of Bill Pearce who will do readings on 3 of the tracks. This album is all about "getting off the page" and into the WHY rather than the WHAT. No sixteenth notes. Just honest expression. That used to be "enough" in the world. But in our 6000 channel universe, it is increasingly devalued. I think Richard (and others of like mind, like Norman Bolter and Carol Viera, for instance) has hit something absolutely on the head in this discussion. The "thing" that informs the music in the first place is the MOST important thing to be communicated - not the ego of the performer, or being impressed with how "hot" the band is. It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that..... ....."thing." >I think orchestras fail for any number of reasons - community support being >one of them. Where I have the biggest gripe is when orchestras play the >music of John Williams instead of the originator of the music he took - >Mahler, Tchaikovsky, Prokofiev, etc through the 20th century. I have a >problem when orchestras play Disney tunes on the same program with Haydn and >Bach. I turn red when good musicians have to play bad music in order to >please those with enough money to support the orchestra. Let me comment for a minute about John Williams. John is a good friend and a person for whom I care deeply - both as a professional and a person. He is truly one of the most humble people I have ever met. So let me put my context on Richard's comments. I happen to like John Williams' music quite a bit. I've played for 2 movie soundtracks of his, and recorded albums of his music with the Boston Pops Orchestra and Boston Symphony (most recently his Violin Concerto with Gil Shaham for DG). He's conducted me in performances of his Tuba Concerto and in other concerti. We enjoy wonderful discussions about the Kenton Band, George Roberts ("Spanky", John always calls him...) and the golden age of trombone playing in LA (John used to be a trombone player). John is extremely good at what he does. His movie scores are well crafted to do what a movie score is supposed to do - elicit an emotional response. His scores do that - with bells on. But John would be the FIRST person to tell you that his film music is deeply indebted to many others, including Prokofiev, Mahler and....Alfred Newman, Miklas Rosza, Erich Korngold and others. His music taps into elements of those composers - and his own voice - and he puts together scores that make movie goers jump up and down in their seats. But the truth is that John, now over 60 years old, is looking for his musical legacy and I think it pains him a bit that it's his movie music which people are so ga-ga over. He has written a significant body of symphonic music, mostly concerti,among which several (violin, bassoon) stand out as extremely strong pieces. But it's hard, even for John Williams, who can write his own ticket anywhere, to "get respect" because people seem to always want to hear him conduct the theme from Star Wars rather than one of his other symphonic pieces. The Boston Pops Orchestra was founded with a 3 part concert formula which remains mostly intact today - a first third of classical selections, a second third of a classical concerto and a third third of popular selections. What has defined "popular" has changed over the years - in the early 1900's it might have been a set of Strauss Waltzes and today it may be an Elvis medley (I can't say I'm very happy about THAT change). But the fact is that Pops (which were originally conceived to keep the BSO's mostly European players from going back home to Europe after the winter season was over where they would often get other work and not come back to Boston - this is why the BSO became the first orchestra in the country to have a full paid 52 week season - we had the Boston pops work) are a huge cash cow for the BSO Inc. There is a great effort on the part of the management to make the Pops an "entry" into the world of the BSO, hoping that people who go to Pops will then want to come to a BSO concert. But this is really not happening (it has never happened) and it's because the two institutions (BSO and BPO) are separate animals. It's not honest to tell a person that a BSO concert is like a Pops concert because it isn't. But.... The Pops is what it is. And it can be appreciated for what it is - a way to make a large segment of the population happy for a period of 2 hours (or 74 minutes on a CD). And there is nothing wrong with that. But it is also naive to confuse the Pops with the BSO in terms of its mission and methods. The Boston Pops part of the BSO season used to be 12 weeks of concerts 6 nights a week. Now BSO players play 6 weeks of Pops 5 nights a week. It appears in its own discrete season (May and early June) and does not mix pops with symphony concerts. You never find a piece of a John Williams movie score on a BSO concert but you DO find classical music on pops concerts. They are separate entities which appeal to different audiences. Nobody in the BSO organization confuses the two and that is a good thing. As I said earlier, my car CD changer has a new John Williams movie score compilation in it. I love that music for what it is. And I'm very proud to have played much of it and recorded much of it, too. It's a thrill to play (John knows how to write a great trombone lick!) and when we hit a patch that's so clearly over the top in debt to Prokofiev, or someone else, it's always great to see John smiling on the podium, as if he's saying, "Thanks for the inspiration" because in doing so, he makes his music originally his. He knows the sounds and sonorities that resonate with people and he gives them back. He is a person who crafts on demand and is very good at it. So I do not take anything from him for that, but do wish that his other, more symphonic side would be taken more seriously because in THAT music (in particular his bassoon concerto) we see what the mad can do without the film in front of him, left alone with his mind, memory and experience. It can be wonderful to hear. Unfortunately, the marketplace is more interested in "E.T." than "The Five Sacred Trees" (his bassoon concerto) but that's the market talking. >Ignorance is not stupidity. Stupidity can almost be excused, ignorance can >never be. Stupid can be defined as being slow to learn or understand. We >are all stupid in some areas - otherwise we would all be Einsteinian in our >knowledge of, well, everything. Ignorance is the state of being uninformed >- and that state is a matter of choice. People will remain ignorant of >music as long as they are allowed to do so. If you are fed crap all day >everyday then you have no room for anything else and you view eating as a >very distasteful experience. If, on the other hand, you are fed good stuff, >then things change. Richard's comments here are quite insightful, for to understand the difference between ignorance and stupidity is at the heart of a societal trend not only in music but in other things as well. We live in a time where it is increasingly difficult to find people who actually VALUE things for more than their face value. We Americans are fast, loud and brash (a generality which has much truth in it). We are losing patience with things that take time to absorb and experience. Comic books and dumbed down versions of books are increasingly popular for children. For instance, it wasn't until two years ago when I decided it was time to re-read many of the classics I read as a kid did I realize that I had been scammed by well meaning authors who edited books for children. I read "Robinson Crusoe" when I was young but it wasn't the book Defoe wrote, as I found out when I read the unabridged version - I found when I re-read it that the book sis really a story of one man's journey of faith - something what had been COMPLETELY excised from the edited version. And apart from the opening line, "Call me Ishmael," the Moby Dick of my youth was not the same book by Melville I read this summer in its orginal format. The wildly popular Harry Potter books (I am not confusing popularity with quality here) are dumbed down from the original British version for American audiences (in both vocabulary and style - even the titles are changed). Books used to be a near sacred thing - in a world without TV and the internet, books were a window into the world. Now they are becoming things of the past. "You mean, you READ?" is the incredulous comment I get when I tell people I watch perhaps 1 hour of TV a week. I see the same attitude in church, where it seems just fine to dress down. Time was people put on their "Sunday go to meeting clothes" not to show off to others, but out of respect to show their best to GOD. Today, God is my buddy, my pal, and we are increasingly losing sight of the enormity of what He is actually about. Last night at our BSO concert I was reminded how things have changed in the concert hall as well. As the orchestra was playing Debussy's "Nuages" - his remarkable study in clouds and grey, the moment was punctuated at regular intervals by horrible coughing by many different people. No attempt to cover the cough is made, just a disgusting bark. Funny, I don't hear that in audiences when I play in Japan or Vienna, or even London. No, Symphony Hall, for many people, has become an extension of the living room - if you have to cough, just do it, if you have to pee, get up and disturb the rest of the row. Don't worry, there's a speaker in the bathroom - since they can't pause the concert when you hit the head, it's the next best thing. My worldview is shaped by my Christian faith, and in particular by the following verse from the New Testament: ===== Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, let your mind dwell on these things. (Philippians 4:8) ===== THAT is my measuring stick. And that is where I get my personal demand for excellence and discernment. And for fighting ignorance with knowledge and understanding. >but one >of the most important things that music teaches us is that there are ideas, >emotions, and ideals in this world which are higher than us, and they are >worth striving for. There are absolutes of such high stature that no human >can ever reach - but through music we can glimpse them, maybe get a peek at >the sunlight from the cave and know that it is there. Richard's poetic words challenge us. Read them again through the lens of Philippians 4:8. Music (and other arts, but in particular music) can give us, as Edward Kleinhammer frequently says, "A keyhole peek into heaven." As the BSO played Brahms 3 (which is easily my favorite Brahms Symphony - can you think of any other symphony in which every movement ends softly?), we came to the trombone chorales at the end of the second movement which brought to mind Colin Davis' comment when he conducted it here years ago: "And now, a blessing from the trombones." A blessing. An old fashioned word. When was the last time you were a blessing? Brahms' economy with using trombones is quite startling, and while many trombonists grumble about the tacet movements, you miss the point if you don't understand that less is more. That is what genius is all about - finding the right way to use the right effect, having the right tool for the job and doing only what is needed, not what is wanted. I read an interesting article two days ago about Shakespeare (by Edward T. Oakes) in the December 1999 issue of my favorite magazine, "First Things" (http://www.firstthings.com). And there, I read a startling sentence: "Computer studies only add to the stupefaction (over Shakepeare's genius): nearly half of Shakespeare's words were what scholars call hapax legomena, that is, words that Shakespeare used only once, having found the one right location for their perfect use and never needing them again." Now, computers never lie so this must be true. Can you imagine the implications of this. Can we even comprehend the ability to do such a thing? Can we ever complain about Brahms' economy in orchestration and using trombones when we think about this? Oakes went on to offer another important statement, quoting Hans Urs von Balthasar and his theory of "relative singularity": "Great works of art appear like inexplicable miracles and spontaneous eruptions on the stage of history. Sociologists are as unable to calculate the precise day of their origin as they are to explain in retrospect why they appeared when they did. Of course, works of art are subject to certain preconditions without which they cannot come into being: such conditions may be effect stimuli but do not provide a full explanation of the work itself. Shakespeare had his predecessors, contemporaries, and models; he was surrounded by the atmosphere of the theater of his time. He could only have emerged within that context. Yet who would dare offer to prove that his emergence was inevitable?" Who would dare indeed? But Balthasar makes a critical statement when he reminds us that there ARE things which can be called "great art" which of course means that there is "less great art." This returns now full circle to the beginning of this ever growing small book I started to write the other day. Knowledge and understanding can allow us to make critical judgments about the quality of what we see, hear, taste, smell and touch. And it DOES NOT mean that things of lesser quality cannot be enjoyed, it just means that we have the honesty to discern. No, not everything in the world is "Awesome." >The modern person has difficulty in sitting >down and shutting up for the 35 minute Beethoven symphony. They are much >more able to hear the 180 second pop tune. in fact, I doubt that most list >readers will read this post...one glance at the length and they'll just >delete it. Probably, and sadly, true. I confess I enjoy the long posts very much, and not just because I often write one. There is a great deal to learn on this list. I'm a busy person as are all of you who are reading this, but I make time to read and contribute to the list. I learn a lot - I learn things which I internalize and make my own, I learn some wisdom as well. I learn specifics about the trombone and about music, and I also learn, sometimes, how people don't really read a post before responding, or how they get touchy when someone disagrees with them, or how much fuzzy thinking there sometimes is on a given issue. But even the fuzziest, most clouded post teaches me something, and I'm grateful for it. Richard's comments about people having trouble sitting through a Beethoven symphony is sadly true, and it is a more "American" issue than a global (as I mentioned earlier about audiences in Vienna and Japan being incredibly quiet and attentive). >Two hundred years from now, who will be this time's Bach? Wouldn't it >better to settle in and explore what we have before running to the next >thing? (when I say such things I always feel so old!) Like a kid running >from toy to toy we don't appreciate what we have, I think. People rarely >do. Bach was a quite voice that spoke directly and with great authority. >In today's world we rarely hear the quite voices. Too much damned noise. Ahh, what a thought, and one which resonates with me to my core. I speak about this in my website article, "The Puzzle of Our Lives" where I detail my spiritual/musical journey (http://www.yeodoug.com/puzzle.html). Richard is quite right, we spend so much time running around in a whirlwind that we rarely can hear the "still small voice" that is always there calling us. Yesterday, in a rehearsal for the Lutoslowski "Concerto for Orchestra" there was an inexpressibly beautiful, tender moment. It was an open rehearsal. Ozawa stopped the orchestra to correct something, but mindful of the moment which had just happened, he whispered his request to the orchestra. It was a POWERFUL interaction. But just as he finished speaking, SOME STUPID IDIOT in the audience said loudly, "What did he say?" and the quiet voice was silenced and the rehearsal was not the same again for several minutes. We live in a world which does not value that which is beautiful, sublime and that which requires more than a 5 second interaction. Watch people going through an art museum sometimes. Tourists fly by the galleries to the "famous" painting, stopping before it for 10 seconds so they can tell everyone back home that they "saw it" - oblivious to all that they passed by. I can't help but wonder how many people who come to concerts (many of whom I see fast asleep) are there just to tell someone they were there. Of course, I'm glad they ARE there since they help put money in my pocket, but I often wonder, as I gaze out at the audience, how many people are being changed by this? >Babies graduate from milk to baby food to bread to cereal to veggies to >pasta to meat. Later in life we acquire the taste for wine, Guinness, >chocolates and things which allow us to discriminate in a more fine fashion. >As adults we enjoy a staggering variety of foods from which to choose. > >We don't eat baby food anymore. Not at all. It's time to move on to higher >things. My friend Richard is a wonderful snob, isn't he! Me, too, and anyone who has knowledge and a rich, pluralistic life. Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus - AND things which are higher and lower. Our terminally politically correct society preaches a lie that such discernment is not only not possible, but not permissible. But that is surely one of the biggest lies every propagated on the planet. No, all things are not equal. We can still ENJOY all things, but they are not equal. Richard concluded with: >Our world is not for everyone. It is, however for me. I appreciate a great >deal having a forum such as this to share ideas such as these. This is good >stuff. Amen, and, Amen. It's time to end this and move on to other things, but I appreciate this forum which can generate humor, honest requests for silly things, serious inquiries, fluff, SOS calls for help and, now and then, a bit of philosophy. We're all the richer for it. -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:45 1999 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 08:22:31 -0600 From: Listmonitor Trombone-L To: Trombone-L Subject: re. Digest Archives Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The intial entry in the trombone-l digest archives is available at http://www.cjnetworks.com/~tsks This page also offers some useful commands for the trombone-l. Please excuse the ugly HTML. LM From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:45 1999 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 06:29:39 -0800 From: "Michael W. Millar & Dava S. Millar" To: yeo@yeodoug.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Our thread on responding to music Message-ID: <3847D3D3.24002504@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Great post, Doug! Those interested in this thread might enjoy John Steinmetz's article "Resuscitating Art Music," originally published in the NARAS Journal. It can be viewed on the web at: http://www.munb.com/artx2.html Mike Millar From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:46 1999 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 10:18:16 -0500 From: David Buckley To: yeo@yeodoug.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Our thread on responding to music Message-ID: <3847DF38.ECA06BA1@sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What great posts from Doug and Richard. We could probably spend the next year or so debating all the ramifications of the ideas presented. The only to say at this point is that it is important to be judgmental about most things in life. You do your children a great disservice if you are not demonstrating continually to them positive choices and if necessary defending them. That does not mean being obnoxious. Remember that too. Secondly, without true elitism, we'd all be in trouble. And finally, trombone related, last night's concert by Michael Davis and Bill Reichenbach in Toronto was seriously compromised by a too loud drummer and bad balance from the amplifiers (only necessary of course because of the too loud drummer). I sure do wish wonderful players like these two would play better music and teach drummers to drive at low volume levels. There, my elitist/snobbish thought for the day. Dave Buckley. From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:46 1999 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:20:01 EST From: Hornman179@aol.com To: melkjer@pacbell.net, trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: trbn xmas music Message-ID: <0.f547ed8e.257939a1@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CHECK OUT QUARTET DE POSAUNE Christmas tape with excellent arrangements for trombone quartet JIM ERDMAN at Dept of Music Lebanon Valley College Annville PA 17003 From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:46 1999 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:22:02 -0600 (CST) From: Donn Schaefer To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: elitism?! Do you want the best? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Here is a thought on elitism from Maestro James Dixon (roughly quoted from a class): "Why do you like classical music? That's elitist. Do you think it is the best music or something?" Said Dixon in his Devil's advocate voice. "Let me ask you this," Dixon continued in his normal gravelly tones. "If you had to have surgery performed, wouldn't you want the best doctor to perform the operation?" "Well . . . You are an elitist." (cough, cough) "When I listen to music, I want to hear the best." Cheers, Donn Schaefer From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:46 1999 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 08:36:04 -0700 From: Dave Tall To: bazbone@earthlink.net, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Our thread on responding to music Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991203083604.00ba1cb0@pop.a001.sprintmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:29 AM 12/3/99 -0800, Michael W. Millar & Dava S. Millar wrote: >Great post, Doug! > >Those interested in this thread might enjoy John Steinmetz's article >"Resuscitating Art Music," originally published in the NARAS Journal. It >can be viewed on the web at: > >http://www.munb.com/artx2.html > >Mike Millar Thanks for this reference! I was not familiar with this essay; it should be required reading! Dave Tall Bass Trombonist New Mexico Symphony From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:47 1999 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:44:39 -0600 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Our thread on responding to music Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Doug, I read your post, and I think that in spite of its excellence, you completely missed the point that some of us were making about snobbery. There is nothing wrong with choosing one thing over another, or considering one thing better than another for your own purpose. The problem comes when we make prejudicial judgements on others based on their choices. Nearly all judgements are based on a lack of humility. And if you study your religion carefully, you will find humility to be a REQUIREMENT, not an option. Does humility require that we accept for ourselves all things? NO. However, it does require an awareness of our own imperfection to the extent that we do not judge the intent of a person on our own. There is, in my opinion, a BIG difference between me saying that I don't like Mahler and Stravinsky, and saying that you are an idiot because you do. I do believe in an absolute truth, but that truth is not music, sports, political opinions, history or any of the other things that we spend so much time arguing about. That truth is also certainly not religion, since there are so many to choose from. We judge people, and even kill them (since one only leads to the other) over the most stupid things. I am well acquainted with were judgement leads. I have studied the history Nazi Germany quite extensively, and have had the opportunity to speak in person with many of the people who made that history. The men who created the atrocities of Auschwitz and Treblinka came from the same civilization that brought us Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Gothe, and Schiller. Just think of how civilized they were. Heck they even played nice Waltzes for the people coming off the cattle cars and into the "showers". The problem was that once you think that you are superior to others because of your religion, your art, and your culture, it is a simple matter to consider those inferior to you as subhuman. But we don't even have to look overseas. What about our "manifest destiny". We Northern Europeans are so much better than those savages on the prairie. Why should it matter that they were here first, that they have hopes and dreams and needs. They are just red savages, and really don't matter. Let's just exterminate them and take what is theirs. This is where judgement leads. Yes, I do believe in an absolute Truth. That Truth took our form and came to earth to teach us 2000 years ago. After reading His words, and the writings of His followers, I find that I cannot think of my own wonderfulness. In fact, I am convicted of just how low, base, imperfect and savage that I really am. Does this mean that I accept every idea and thought of everyone around me? NO. But I am somewhat less likely to see others as "ignorant masses wanting only self gratification". I don't know what they want. I am not God that can see into their souls. I do know that I do not agree with much that is around me. But I don't persecute it either. I leave that to the elitist who are so much better than I am. You may think that I have gone to far in comparing "musical snobs" to Nazis. However, my profession in life is not as a philosopher or musician. I analyze equipment and personal failures. It is my job to determine the root cause of these failures and try to prevent re-occurence. I see the same root cause in a person who looks down on another because of his musical preference as I do in one who looks down on another because of his race. The only real difference is in how far you go with it. I see nothing wrong with saying "I am different than you." However, saying "I am better than you" is going too far. If I have offended anyone with this post, I am truely sorry. It was not my intent. Ken Dowdy From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:47 1999 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 09:48:25 -0600 From: "Michael P. Coyle" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: "snob" & "It's Not Elitism, It's Snobbism" Message-ID: <199912031551.JAA06157@newton.pconline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; types="text/plain,text/html"; boundary="=====================_4505920==_.ALT" At 08:23 AM 12/2/99 , Chris Waage wrote:

>Historically, members of the noble class have some sort of suffix they add
>to their names, i.e., "Duke of Saxony", which identify their lineage and
>level of royalty. Many commoners started adopting this practice, but
>merely added the Latin phrase "sine nobilitat," or "without nobility."

>With time, this became shortened to the first vowels, or "snob."
>Snob . . . without nobility . . . how appropriate.


This struck me a being too convenient, albeit very clever, and smacks of entomology via urban legend (i.e. all the colorful but wrong ideas about the derivation of the popular "f" word).  So, I did a little digging and found this from the Dictionary of Word Origins (Arcade Publishing, New York, 1990):

Snob originally meant "shoemaker."  Cambridge University students of the late 18th century took it over as a slang term for a "townsman, someone not a member of the university," and it seems to have been this usage which formed the basis in the 1830's for the emergence of the new general sense "member of the lower orders" ("the nobs have lost their dirty seats - the honest snobs have got 'em," proclaimed the Lincoln Herald on 22 July 1831, anticipating the new Reform Act).  This in turn developed into "ostentatiously vulgar person," but it was the novelist William Thackery who really sowed the seeds of the word's modern meaning in his Book of Snobs 1848, where he used it for "someone vulgarly aping his social superiors."  It has since broadened out to include those who insist on their gentility as well as those who aspire to it.  As for the origins of the word "snob" itself, they remain a mystery.  An ingenious suggestion once put forward that it came from s. nob., supposedly an abbreviation for Latin sine nobilitate "without nobility," but that ignores the words early history.

Webster's New Unabridged says snob was "used as a nickname for a cobbler or cobbler's apprentice..."

Concerning "elitism," it is quite a pity that it has come to be thought of pejoratively.  "Elitist" ranks right up there with "racist" as a moral indictment these days.  In our age of mindless egalitarianism we have created an "anti meritocracy" which rewards mediocrity.  The more banal something is the more influence it has in our society - all you have to do is take a serious and unfiltered look at TV and film in our country to see the truth of this. 

For a brilliantly reasoned and passionate argument for elitism, read William Henry's book, In Defense of Elitism (Doubleday, New York, 1994).

I won't be so stupid as to share my views on elitism and music - I have recently learned a lesson about sharing such ides in a public forum  ;)

Be nice,

Mike Coyle

"Methinks you have an elitist or two in your ranks"


 From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:48 1999 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 09:58:01 -0600 From: "Dale M. Hudoba" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi there y'all, I have not contributed to this group, though I have been around it now for a while. I have come to really appreciate the honesty and care that most people here put into their messages. I have a question that is not really related to music but IS related to being an active musician and I hope that no one is offended or angered by it. I am also putting a lot of trust in the group by asking this. I attended one of the best music conservatories in the U.S., where I was very successful, and been playing professionally for several years. I hope to have a career in music and want to audition for a major orchestra when the time is right. Here's the deal: I'm gay. I have met only one other gay trombone player in my life, though I know plenty of other gay musicians (of course). To me, being gay is nothing other than the sexual orientation with which I was born, it is not a life style nor a political statement. I don't feel real comfortable being honest about it with some other brass players I know because I am afraid that it might mean that it keeps me from getting gigs and pushes me outside the "circle" of players who get work due to prejudice. It is hard for me to know how most people feel about this and I am wondering if my fears of prejudice getting in the way of my career are valid or not. I'm wondering what the popular opinion might be on such a thing and would very grateful for your responses. I am not expecting everyone to be supportive or to embrace an orientation which they have disagreements with, I don't mind getting responses that are in disagreement with me, all I want is honest responses. It is an important issue and one that I am sure impacts many more people than most of us can imagine. Again, I hope that I have not offended anyone and I hope that my sincere request will be met with your sincere responses. Thank you very much, Dale From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:49 1999 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:03:41 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Our thread on responding to music Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 9:44 AM -0600 12/3/99, DOWDY, KENNETH S wrote: >I see nothing wrong >with saying "I am different than you." However, saying "I am better than >you" is going too far. I agree that we should not say "I am better than you," however it is possible - and necessary, to, at times say, "THIS is better than THAT." You do that on your job all the time - we all do, and if we don't, we fail to do so at our peril. Making such a judgment (that "THIS is better than THAT") does not judge the person, but rather the object of the judgment. There are ways to qualify and quantify excellence which is a far cry from saying that such an opinion is "Truth" and a person holding a contrary view is inferior. I certainly would not support any person (especially myself!) thinking himself superior to another person because of differences of judgment. I know in my post I did not support or make any comments that said "I am better than you because of what I've concluded about music." You are quite right, music has no "Truth" statements (I share your Christian conviction about "Truth"), but excellence is another matter. It is important to separate the person from the object. That it is often not done is sad and has led to much harm to mankind. But it can be done - it just takes a little more work. And, by the way, no offense taken by me by your post, and I hope others will feel the same way! -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:49 1999 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 10:00:05 -0600 From: Dale To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: personal issue as a musician Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi there y'all, I have not contributed to this group, though I have been around it now for a while. I have come to really appreciate the honesty and care that most people here put into their messages. I have a question that is not really related to music but IS related to being an active musician and I hope that no one is offended or angered by it. I am also putting a lot of trust in the group by asking this. I attended one of the best music conservatories in the U.S., where I was very successful, and been playing professionally for several years. I hope to have a career in music and want to audition for a major orchestra when the time is right. Here's the deal: I'm gay. I have met only one other gay trombone player in my life, though I know plenty of other gay musicians (of course). To me, being gay is nothing other than the sexual orientation with which I was born, it is not a life style nor a political statement. I don't feel real comfortable being honest about it with some other brass players I know because I am afraid that it might mean that it keeps me from getting gigs and pushes me outside the "circle" of players who get work due to prejudice. It is hard for me to know how most people feel about this and I am wondering if my fears of prejudice getting in the way of my career are valid or not. I'm wondering what the popular opinion might be on such a thing and would very grateful for your responses. I am not expecting everyone to be supportive or to embrace an orientation which they have disagreements with, I don't mind getting responses that are in disagreement with me, all I want is honest responses. It is an important issue and one that I am sure impacts many more people than most of us can imagine. Again, I hope that I have not offended anyone and I hope that my sincere request will be met with your sincere responses. Thank you very much, Dale From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:49 1999 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:03:10 -0600 From: Chris Waage To: Trombone-L Subject: Re: "snob" & "It's Not Elitism, It's Snobbism" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mike- I wasn't terribly sure of the origin of that story - that's why I prefaced it with a warning about the authenticity. I thought it was kind of neat, but probably is urban legend, right up there with the perfect mouthpiece. As for opinions, that's what makes the list fly. Yep, sometimes they step on toes and people scream, but if we all agreed on everything, that would be pretty boring. Chris >At 08:23 AM 12/2/99 , Chris Waage wrote: > >>Historically, members of the noble class have some sort of suffix they add >>to their names, i.e., "Duke of Saxony", which identify their lineage and >>level of royalty. Many commoners started adopting this practice, but >>merely added the Latin phrase "sine nobilitat," or "without nobility." > >>With time, this became shortened to the first vowels, or "snob." >>Snob . . . without nobility . . . how appropriate. > > >This struck me a being too convenient, albeit very clever, and smacks of >entomology via urban legend (i.e. all the colorful but wrong ideas about >the derivation of the popular "f" word). So, I did a little digging and >found this from the Dictionary of Word Origins (Arcade Publishing, New >York, 1990): > >Snob originally meant "shoemaker." Cambridge University students of the >late 18th century took it over as a slang term for a "townsman, someone >not a member of the university," and it seems to have been this usage >which formed the basis in the 1830's for the emergence of the new general >sense "member of the lower orders" ("the nobs have lost their dirty seats >- the honest snobs have got 'em," proclaimed the Lincoln Herald on 22 July >1831, anticipating the new Reform Act). This in turn developed into >"ostentatiously vulgar person," but it was the novelist William Thackery >who really sowed the seeds of the word's modern meaning in his Book of >Snobs 1848, where he used it for "someone vulgarly aping his social >superiors." It has since broadened out to include those who insist on >their gentility as well as those who aspire to it. As for the origins of >the word "snob" itself, they remain a mystery. An ingenious suggestion >once put forward that it came from s. nob., supposedly an abbreviation for >Latin sine nobilitate "without nobility," but that ignores the words early >history. > >Webster's New Unabridged says snob was "used as a nickname for a cobbler >or cobbler's apprentice..." > >Concerning "elitism," it is quite a pity that it has come to be thought of >pejoratively. "Elitist" ranks right up there with "racist" as a moral >indictment these days. In our age of mindless egalitarianism we have >created an "anti meritocracy" which rewards mediocrity. The more banal >something is the more influence it has in our society - all you have to do >is take a serious and unfiltered look at TV and film in our country to see >the truth of this. > >For a brilliantly reasoned and passionate argument for elitism, read >William Henry's book, In Defense of Elitism (Doubleday, New York, 1994). > >I won't be so stupid as to share my views on elitism and music - I have >recently learned a lesson about sharing such ides in a public forum ;) > >Be nice, > >Mike Coyle > >"Methinks you have an elitist or two in your ranks" _____________________________________________ Chris Waage basstbn@waageworks.com http://www.waageworks.com "Wisdom comes from Knowledge. Knowledge comes from Good Judgement. Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement." _____________________________________________ From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:50 1999 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 08:25:37 -0700 From: Galen Zinn To: Trombone List Subject: Banal Things, (Metalugist's Muse) Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hey Guys & Gals, I really do need a lyre that works. Okay, after you get over telling me to memorize my music and/or to buy the lyre that clamps to a trombone bell (I don't want to scratch the bell), what other solutions have you found? I play with a group that moves from one location to another. I NEED A LYRE THAT WILL CARRY A LOAD! I've already had a recommended instrument repair craftsman build me two custom lyres that were unable to handle a full show's load of trombone music without coming loose or drooping to cause unacceptable slide damage, so where do I go from here? CAN YOU METALURGIST'S OUT THERE SUGGEST A METAL THAT IS STIFF ENOUGH TO "SHOULDER THE LOAD" WITHOUT TRASHING A TROMBONE? Galen Zinn E-mail: zinger@musician.org =========================<>=========================== * PATIENCE * FANATICISM * PERFORMANCE * PERSEVERANCE * * DETERMINATION * OBSESSION * DEDICATION * * DISCIPLINE * DRIVING FORCE * * ATTITUDE * APTITUDE * * BALANCE * ==============<> E X C E L L E N C E <>=============== Burma Shave From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:50 1999 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:43:14 -0500 From: "Douglas Calvin" To: Cc: Subject: lavender brass Message-ID: <002f01bf3dad$804f9940$2c43f7a5@sunnyside> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dale, I've been around musicians my entire life and there has ALWAYS been a presence of gays (and some, albeit fewer lesbians) in circles of classical, opera, jazz, church (most certainly!), folk, etc. Particularly in classical arenas, I think there is a great tolerance, although oftentimes not particularly gay-friendly -- but time and time again I've seen acceptance grow over time. It can be difficult if there is a lot of machismo and suchnot...it's not so different from the sexism taht women often get in the same situations. If you find yourself there, find allies, keep your principles, and fear not -- you have truth and integrity on your side. And if you play your horn well, then you have more in common with even the most homophobic dudes out there then they do with many non-musicians-- sharing music in itself builds respect and comradery. Best, Douglas Calvin From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:50 1999 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 12:08:59 -0500 From: Paul Riley To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Banal Things, (Metalugist's Muse) Message-ID: <3847F92B.812EE14D@greenlinnet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello all, As an addendum to Galen's question, I'd like to add that a strong lyre would allow me to get my microphone clamp the off of my horn's bell. O.k. engineers, what d'ya got? Paul L. Riley Green Linnet ğ Xenophile paul@greenlinnet.com From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:51 1999 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:32:03 -0800 From: "Joe L. Norcross" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: personal issue as a musician Message-ID: <01af01bf3db4$517b35a0$04000005@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I may not like your life style, but my only concern would be if you can play. The only time that a persons sexual preference would matter, if he or she was trying to date or have sex with another member and it caused conflict. This can happen with both gay and straight people. ______________________________________ Joe L. Norcross Tuba, Sequoia Winds, Visalia British Brass Band Tuba and Announcer, Kingsburg City Band joetuba@lightspeed.net -----Original Message----- From: Dale To: Trombones and related issues forum. Date: Friday, December 03, 1999 8:06 AM Subject: personal issue as a musician >Hi there y'all, > >I have not contributed to this group, though I have been around it now for >a while. I have come to really appreciate the honesty and care that most >people here put into their messages. I have a question that is not really >related to music but IS related to being an active musician and I hope that >no one is offended or angered by it. I am also putting a lot of trust in >the group by asking this. > >I attended one of the best music conservatories in the U.S., where I was >very successful, and been playing professionally for several years. I hope >to have a career in music and want to audition for a major orchestra when >the time is right. Here's the deal: I'm gay. I have met only one other >gay trombone player in my life, though I know plenty of other gay musicians >(of course). To me, being gay is nothing other than the sexual orientation >with which I was born, it is not a life style nor a political statement. I >don't feel real comfortable being honest about it with some other brass >players I know because I am afraid that it might mean that it keeps me from >getting gigs and pushes me outside the "circle" of players who get work due >to prejudice. > >It is hard for me to know how most people feel about this and I am >wondering if my fears of prejudice getting in the way of my career are >valid or not. I'm wondering what the popular opinion might be on such a >thing and would very grateful for your responses. I am not expecting >everyone to be supportive or to embrace an orientation which they have >disagreements with, I don't mind getting responses that are in >disagreement with me, all I want is honest responses. It is an important >issue and one that I am sure impacts many more people than most of us can >imagine. > >Again, I hope that I have not offended anyone and I hope that my sincere >request will be met with your sincere responses. > >Thank you very much, > >Dale > From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:51 1999 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 12:24:27 -0500 From: Stephen Troy To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Our thread on responding to music Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991203122427.008fc820@pop.erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:48 AM 12/3/1999 -0500, Douglas Yeo wrote: >Richard's comments here are quite insightful, for to understand the >difference between ignorance and stupidity is at the heart of a >societal trend not only in music but in other things as well. We >live in a time where it is increasingly difficult to find people who >actually VALUE things for more than their face value. We Americans >are fast, loud and brash (a generality which has much truth in it). >We are losing patience with things that take time to absorb and >experience. I would like to recommend the article "The Boys Choir of Harlem Sings a Song of Hope" in the December 1999 issue of Smithsonian Magazine. A brief intro can be found at: http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian/issues99/dec99/choir.html but I recommend going to a bookstore or library and reading the entire article. Quite germaine to our discussions of late. Steve Troy (who has never coughed at a concert) From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:51 1999 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 11:36:19 -0600 From: daboneman To: yeo@yeodoug.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Our thread on responding to music Message-ID: <3847FF93.21724EC7@mciworld.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I have shied away from this thread, but I feel disturbed about some of the posts concerning "elitism." A long while back I was at a clinic that was given by Jiggs Whigham (one of my favorite jazz trombonists). During this clinic a person made a statement that went this way... "Don't you feel sorry for all of those people that don't listen to jazz? In my opinion they are worthless otherwise." To this Jiggs replied: "I am sorry that you feel that way. There is worth in ALL forms of music. Not just jazz or classical." This really hit home with me because I didn't feel exactly the same way as the person who made the statement, but similarly. I then made it my goal to search out high musicianship in ALL fields of music. There is high quality music everywhere. Not just in classical or jazz. I feel that a lot of the views here are extremely closed minded. There is a world of very high quality musicians that are not classically trained. I feel that a lot on this list are selling themselves short. Dean McCarty freelance trombonist, Houston area From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:52 1999 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:43:22 EST From: Farquhar3@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: mouthpieces Message-ID: <0.2d028f01.25795b3a@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/1/99 3:39:03 PM, tyty@sunline.net writes: << I'm wondering if anyone can suggest any mouthpiece which excels in the high register? >> Not really . . . I know a couple players who do, though. :-) Seriously, find a mouthpiece on which you FEEL comfortable and sound good playing and then DEVELOP the high register! Bob Sanders Bob Sanders From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:52 1999 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:43:35 -0600 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Banal Things, (Metallurgist's Muse) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Galen, I would think that the problem is not so much the metal, but the mounting. Most lyres that I have used have about an 8 inch rod attached to a < half inch flimsy clamp. Since it sounds like you want a trombone portable Manhasset, you will need a much larger clamp. I would suggest that your machinist devise a clamp that encompasses the entire mouthpiece receiver and not just the little part that is necked down to hold the mouthpiece. Also, if you need something stronger than the thin steel rod used to extend the lyre from your face, you could use the very small brass box stock sold in hobby stores. This will give you more stiffness than a smaller solid rod, but will cut down on weight since it is hollow. If you don't mind modifying your horn, you could have the mount for the box stock soldered directly to the upper part of your mouthpiece receiver. This could be a 1 to 1 1/2 inch long piece of box stock larger than that used for the lyre rod. You would insert the smaller rod into the larger and clamp it down with a set screw. I hope this helps. I have the picture of it in my mind, but I don't know if it translated well into words. Ken Dowdy > -----Original Message----- > From: Galen Zinn [SMTP:zinger@musician.org] > Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 9:26 AM > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: Banal Things, (Metalugist's Muse) > > Hey Guys & Gals, I really do need a lyre that works. Okay, after you get > over telling me to memorize my music and/or to buy the lyre that clamps to > a > trombone bell (I don't want to scratch the bell), what other solutions > have > you found? > > I play with a group that moves from one location to another. I NEED A LYRE > THAT WILL CARRY A LOAD! I've already had a recommended instrument repair > craftsman build me two custom lyres that were unable to handle a full > show's > load of trombone music without coming loose or drooping to cause > unacceptable slide damage, so where do I go from here? > > CAN YOU METALURGIST'S OUT THERE SUGGEST A METAL THAT IS STIFF ENOUGH TO > "SHOULDER THE LOAD" WITHOUT TRASHING A TROMBONE? > > Galen Zinn > E-mail: zinger@musician.org > > =========================<>=========================== > * PATIENCE * FANATICISM * PERFORMANCE * PERSEVERANCE * > * DETERMINATION * OBSESSION * DEDICATION * > * DISCIPLINE * DRIVING FORCE * > * ATTITUDE * APTITUDE * > * BALANCE * > ==============<> E X C E L L E N C E <>=============== > Burma Shave > From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:52 1999 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:51:33 EST From: MBennetts@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Our thread on responding to music Message-ID: <0.838b8aed.25795d25@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/3/1999 11:43:27 AM Central Standard Time, daboneman@mciworld.com writes: > a person made a statement that went this way... "Don't you feel sorry > for all of those people that don't listen to jazz? In my opinion they are > worthless otherwise." To this Jiggs replied: > > "I am sorry that you feel that way. There is worth in ALL forms of music. > Not just jazz or classical." At Ravinia I heard Bobby McFarin(sp?) urge the audience to listen to many kinds of music, because listening to only one kind of music is like living in a mansion and then spending all your time in the bathroom. Mike Bennett From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:53 1999 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 18:55:20 From: Howard Weiner To: "Trombones and related issues forum." , mlist@ucdavis.edu Subject: quote found [Was: Help needed Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991203185520.2877df2e@mail.privat.toplink.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I went to the library today and found the quote in question by myself: "I believe that a taste for brass instruments is hereditary. My father destroyed his domestic peace by immoderate indulgence in the trombone; my uncle played the ophicleide -- very nicely, I must admit -- for years, and then perished by his own hand. Some day I shall buy a trombone myself." George Bernard Shaw, "Some Instruments and How to Play Them," _The Star,_ 8 March 1889 Here's another Shaw tidbit that I found: " ... the chief objection to playing wind instruments is that it prolongs the life of the player beyond all reasonable limits. If you want to become phthisis-proof, drink-proof, cholera-proof, and, in short, immortal, play the trombone well and play it constantly." [phthisis = tuberculosis] Thanks to those who responded to my call for help. Howard -- Howard Weiner weiner@privat.toplink.de www.odilia.ch/howard-weiner "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture" - attributed to Frank Zappa "Beschriebene Musik ist wie ein erzŠhltes Mittagessen" - Franz Grillparzer zugeschrieben From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:53 1999 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 10:33:39 -0800 From: Pat and Joe Chapman To: Trombone-l Subject: A cell phone thrill! Message-ID: <38480D00.92C5C272@pioneer.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm not a lover nor a user of cell phones.I think they are misused much of the time,however last night I had,because of the cell phone,a wonderful grandparent thrill.Our son and his family live in Michigan and we in Oregon and because of the cell phone,we were able to hear our oldest grandson playing trombone in his high school stage band,"live".The next best thing to being there.Thanks for listening this morning to a proud and happy grandma. Happy holidays, Pat From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:53 1999 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:47:20 -0600 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > -----Original Message----- > From: Dale M. Hudoba [SMTP:hudo0011@tc.umn.edu] > Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 9:58 AM > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: > > I attended one of the best music conservatories in the U.S., where I was > very successful, and been playing professionally for several years. I > hope > to have a career in music and want to audition for a major orchestra when > the time is right. > That's a good start. > Here's the deal: I'm gay. I have met only one other > gay trombone player in my life, though I know plenty of other gay > musicians > (of course). To me, being gay is nothing other than the sexual > orientation > with which I was born, it is not a life style nor a political statement. > I > don't feel real comfortable being honest about it with some other brass > players I know because I am afraid that it might mean that it keeps me > from > getting gigs and pushes me outside the "circle" of players who get work > due > to prejudice. > I really don't know what there is to be honest about. I have never felt a burning need to tell people about my sex life. I am not at all gay, but if someone were to ask me my sexual orientation, I would tell him to go take a flying ---- at a rolling donut. I disagree completely with homosexuality, but I disagree even more with people who pry into my private life. > It is hard for me to know how most people feel about this and I am > wondering if my fears of prejudice getting in the way of my career are > valid or not. > Your fear is probably what will get in the way of your career. Homosexuality did not seem to harm the carrers of David Bowie, Michial Stipe, Elton John, or Liberace. Why should it bother yours. If you are the best at what you do, you will succeed. Concentrate on the task at hand; being the best trombonist out there. > I'm wondering what the popular opinion might be on such a > thing and would very grateful for your responses. I am not expecting > everyone to be supportive or to embrace an orientation which they have > disagreements with, I don't mind getting responses that are in > disagreement with me, all I want is honest responses. It is an important > issue and one that I am sure impacts many more people than most of us can > imagine. > I would guess that it all boils down to this. If you are ashamed of your orientation and feel that it is wrong, do something to change it. There are people on this list who would support you (myself included). If, on the other hand, you do not feel that you are wrong and have no desire to change, then keep your chin up and concentrate on your music. We all have to suffer, to some extent, for our beliefs. In today's liberal world, my religious beliefs, political views, and social ideas are very, very unpopular; maybe even more than your orientation. I don't let it bother me. I do my job the best that I can, and try to be the best at my job. This attitude has not failed me yet. You don't need to seek people's approval for who or what you are. Keep in mind that the people who would cut you down the most probably have the most problems themselves. Yes, I disagree with your orientation, but I would be very ashamed to tell you the things that I am guilty of. They leave little room to judge you! > Again, I hope that I have not offended anyone and I hope that my sincere > request will be met with your sincere responses. > I would hope that your sincere request would not offend anyone. I also hope that my response does not offend you. Ken Dowdy From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:54 1999 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 11:05:02 -0800 From: "Jim Tempest" To: Trombone List Post a msg to Subject: Responding to Music Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit During my first year of college, I was fortunate to play in a big band led by one of the men I consider to be a mentor in my musical education. Dave Robbins was, and still is in his late 70s, one of the greatest trombonists I have ever had the pleasure of studying and working with. During a concert, Dave spoke of what he felt was the importance of music. He said any music that touched the listener and evoked an emotional response was valid. It didn't matter whether Mozart or Iggy Pop wrote it, all that mattered was that it had impact. Dave, who spent his early professional years at MGM playing film scores before emigrating to Canada, loved all kinds of music. As well as being a great dixieland and jazz player (he was a member of the Harry James Band for several years), he played principal in the Vancouver Opera Orchestra for over 20 years. His energy and enthusiasm were boundless and not limited by preconceived ideas of what constitued "good" or "bad" music. An entire generation of musicians were injected with his love and respect for music of all stripes. Besides teaching us to be the best musicians we can be, he taught us to love music, which is what it's really all about. We just happen to be the guys who chose trombone to try and express it. -- Jim Tempest From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:54 1999 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 13:59:49 -0600 From: Bruce Tracy To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: bass mpc query Message-ID: <38482135.3FC1219B@kckpl.lib.ks.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Am looking for a Wick 2NAL bass trombone mouthpiece. Anyone have one they would consider getting rid of? Would also be willing to swap if I have a mpc. you are looking for... From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:54 1999 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:02:51 -0800 From: "Rodney Ellard" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Responding to Music and The Next Generation Message-ID: <001c01bf3dc9$79af0fa0$4fef94d1@rod> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Returning to a previous thread, that is, the value of a music education, I noted this quote from the article about the Boys Choir of Harlem: "The key to the success of the choir is its emphasis on discipline, hard work and responsibility in addition to musical mastery. "A choir is a good starting point for building character," says Turnbull, a stern and demanding but loving taskmaster. " Which, in my opinion, pretty well says it all. With respect to the "responding to music" thread, I noticed the William Burroughs (of Naked Lunch fame, I think) in the paper this morning that (and I am going from memory here) "writing about music is like dancing about architecture." On a related theme, with respect to Doug's comments about "dumbing - down" etc., what has occurred to me recently is that our language, that is, the medium of everyday discourse, has been debased almost entirely for commercial purposes. What word or phrase is not grist for advertising come-ons, hucksterism and spin? Much, if not most, of contemporary communication is devoid of any content other that "Buy this!" regardless of whether it is a Bill Clinton "apology" or commercial. How does this relate to music? If they could sell products using Bach's St. Matthew's Passion, they would. See, for example, Strauss' Thus Sprach Zarathrustra. And how about those compilations of "Famous Melodies from Classical Music." Rod Ellard From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:54 1999 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 14:00:13 -0600 From: "Michael P. Coyle" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: personal issue as a musician & lavender brass Message-ID: <199912032003.OAA28879@newton.pconline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; types="text/plain,text/html"; boundary="=====================_19617960==_.ALT" First, to Douglas Calvin - I LOVED the title of your post (lavender brass)!  It would make a great name for an all-gay brass ensemble (who knows, maybe it already is).   :)

Second, to Dale,

Hats off to you for your post!  I think you are right that it is an important issue and one that, I know, effects more people than we can imagine.  I have known a couple gay trombone players and several gay brass players in my life.  I think that there is less prejudice among musicians than in the general public, but, there are hateful people every where and in all professions.  As to your concern about whether being openly gay well effect your professional success, in the long run, I seriously doubt it, but there may be an individual or two who are from the dark ages who may be contractors for a gig who may be influenced by it.  To them I say "don't miss out - EVOLVE"

I know some musicians who are very disagreeable people by nature and I know one big name pro who is a notorious womanizing pig - I really hate working with them but that is because their behavior and attitude is objectionable and offensive.  One the other hand, if a person is a decent person and a good musician, I'll work with them anytime and don't really have an opinion on any of their personal issues.  We all have them  :)

I'm sure you have gotten some replies that have talked about your "decision" to be gay.  I've heard this a thousand times and it always amazes me.  Sexual orientation is no more a matter of choice than is your hair color.  A friend of mine once asked a straight guy, who accused him of making the immoral decision to be gay, "why, when the day came to choose YOUR sexual orientation, did you choose to be straight?" The other fellow replied, "there was no choice like that" to which my friend replied, "exactly"  :)     This same friend also said, considering that there are people who are so opposed to homosexuality and that it can cause some very serious problems with family and friends, who on earth would choose to be gay? 

What people CAN choose, however, is whether to act on their feelings or whether to be true to their feelings or not.  You can choose your course of action, but not your feelings.  I have a close friend who is married and has kids and who admitted to me that he has always felt attracted to other men.  He was born in a time that was far more conservative then the present and chose to push back his feelings and "do the normal" thing.  He loves his kids and his wife and doesn't regret making the decision he did, but he has always felt at odds with his true nature.   Tough stuff there.  There is a wonderful quote from the E.M. Forster book Maurice regarding the Victorian British attitude toward homosexuality - the doctor says to Maurice "the British have always been disinclined to accept human nature."   The same can be said for most cultures, even today.  We have a long way to go.

As to whether you should be open with everyone about your being gay - that is an individual decision and I wouldn't presume to give advice on that.  All I can say is that my actions (having a big mouth, getting angry, etc.) have occasionally gotten in my way professionally, but who and what I am has never been an issue in my musical life.  Draw your own conclusions.  ;)

Good Luck,

Mike Coyle

At 10:43 AM 12/3/99 , you wrote:
>Hi Dale,
>I've been around musicians my entire life and there has ALWAYS been a
>presence of gays (and some, albeit fewer lesbians) in circles of classical,
>opera, jazz, church (most certainly!), folk, etc. Particularly in classical
>arenas, I think there is a great tolerance, although oftentimes not
>particularly gay-friendly -- but time and time again I've seen acceptance
>grow over time. It can be difficult if there is a lot of machismo and
>suchnot...it's not so different from the sexism taht women often get in the
>same situations. If you find yourself there, find allies, keep your
>principles, and fear not -- you have truth and integrity on your side. And
>if you play your horn well, then you have more in common with even the most
>homophobic dudes out there then they do with many non-musicians-- sharing
>music in itself builds respect and comradery.
>Best,
>Douglas Calvin

At 10:00 AM 12/3/99 , you wrote:
>Hi there y'all,
>
>I have not contributed to this group, though I have been around it now for
>a while.  I have come to really appreciate the honesty and care that most
>people here put into their messages.  I have a question that is not really
>related to music but IS related to being an active musician and I hope that
>no one is offended or angered by it.  I am also putting a lot of trust in
>the group by asking this.
>
>I attended one of the best music conservatories in the U.S., where I was
>very successful, and been playing professionally for several years.  I hope
>to have a career in music and want to audition for a major orchestra when
>the time is right.  Here's the deal:  I'm gay. I have met only one other
>gay trombone player in my life, though I know plenty of other gay musicians
>(of course).  To me, being gay is nothing other than the sexual orientation
>with which I was born, it is not a life style nor a political statement.  I
>don't feel real comfortable being honest about it with some other brass
>players I know because I am afraid that it might mean that it keeps me from
>getting gigs and pushes me outside the "circle" of players who get work due
>to prejudice. 
>
>It is hard for me to know how most people feel about this and I am
>wondering if my fears of prejudice getting in the way of my career are
>valid or not.  I'm wondering what the popular opinion might be on such a
>thing and would very grateful for your responses.  I am not expecting
>everyone to be supportive or to embrace an orientation which they have
>disagreements with,  I don't mind getting responses that are in
>disagreement with me, all I want is honest responses.  It is an important
>issue and one that I am sure impacts many more people than most of us can
>imagine.
>
>Again, I hope that I have not offended anyone and I hope that my sincere
>request will be met with your sincere responses.
>
>Thank you very much,
>
>Dale From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:56 1999 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:25:45 -0500 From: "Brian Shaw" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: advertising your beliefs Message-ID: <002801bf3dcc$942c09c0$556c9f95@bpshaw.read.indiana.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I would guess that it all boils down to this. If you are ashamed of >your orientation and feel that it is wrong, do something to change it. >There are people on this list who would support you (myself included). No comment. No further comments on this issue, please. This week we've been getting awfully personal, and this particular subject can't go anywhere but downhill. Ken, I'm sorry to cut out the "business-related" aspects of your post, but this snippet concerns me. Brian Shaw Indiana University--Music Education Alpha Zeta Chapter, Kappa Kappa Psi NCD Webslinger http://php.indiana.edu/~bpshaw/ (the single most under-construction spot on the Web) From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:57 1999 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 14:25:08 -0600 From: "Michael P. Coyle" To: "Brian Shaw" Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: advertising your beliefs Message-ID: <199912032028.OAA31769@newton.pconline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Brian wrote: >No further comments on this issue, please. This week we've been getting >awfully personal, and this particular subject can't go anywhere but >downhill. Brian, I'm interpretting what you said as "perhaps it would be best if there were no further public posts on this issue". If read literally it comes close to telling people what to do. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way though. Yours, Mike Coyle At 02:25 PM 12/3/99 , you wrote: >> I would guess that it all boils down to this. If you are ashamed of >>your orientation and feel that it is wrong, do something to change it. >>There are people on this list who would support you (myself included). > > >No comment. > >No further comments on this issue, please. This week we've been getting >awfully personal, and this particular subject can't go anywhere but >downhill. Ken, I'm sorry to cut out the "business-related" aspects of your >post, but this snippet concerns me. > > > >Brian Shaw >Indiana University--Music Education >Alpha Zeta Chapter, Kappa Kappa Psi >NCD Webslinger >http://php.indiana.edu/~bpshaw/ (the single most under-construction spot on >the Web) > From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:57 1999 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 12:29:13 -0800 From: Sequoia Middle School To: ellard@sprint.ca Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Responding to Music and The Next Generation Message-ID: <38482819.E8A1D045@bcsd.k12.ca.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rodney Ellard wrote: > On a related theme, with respect to Doug's comments about "dumbing - down" > etc., what has occurred to me recently is that our language, that is, the > medium of everyday discourse, has been debased almost entirely for > commercial purposes. Yup, and not only that, but I personally have been teaching junior high for so long, I don't no good very much anymore. (:>)) FWIW Gary Maxwell From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:57 1999 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:54:20 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Robert King has passed away Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Robert King died last night after a long battle with cancer. I will post any further information as it becomes available. I understand, as per Bob's wishes, there will be no funeral, but I can't imagine his passing will go unnoticed and his life unhonored by the worldwide brass community. His family asked me to pass on thanks to all those who sent notes and cards in the last few days which have meant so much to all of them, including Bob. -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:57 1999 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:55:18 -0600 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: advertising your beliefs Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Unfortunately, cutting the next sentence from the post totally changed its meaning. What I am simply saying is "if you don't believe you are right, then change. If you do believe you are right, don't worry about what others think." Eliminating the second statement is a terrible misquote of what I was trying to say. And THAT concerns me! Ken Dowdy > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian Shaw [SMTP:bpshaw@indiana.edu] > Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 2:26 PM > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: Re: advertising your beliefs > > > I would guess that it all boils down to this. If you are ashamed of > >your orientation and feel that it is wrong, do something to change it. > >There are people on this list who would support you (myself included). > > > No comment. > > No further comments on this issue, please. This week we've been getting > awfully personal, and this particular subject can't go anywhere but > downhill. Ken, I'm sorry to cut out the "business-related" aspects of > your > post, but this snippet concerns me. > > > > Brian Shaw > Indiana University--Music Education > Alpha Zeta Chapter, Kappa Kappa Psi > NCD Webslinger > http://php.indiana.edu/~bpshaw/ (the single most under-construction spot > on > the Web) From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:57 1999 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 13:16:45 PST From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Message-ID: <19991203211645.46373.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I've never been able to quite figure out why people, mostly men, are so homophobic. Anyway, there's a school of resume writing that claims that one should hide every personal thing they can. Don't reveal your age, marital status, military status· I've found quite the opposite to be true. I've gotten more than half of my jobs because I've managed to interest the hiring manager in who I am. A stated interest in playing jazz oboe, got me one job. My interest in furniture making got me another. Not only that, but once I got the job I didn't need to hide anything, because they knew who I am. On the other hand, I don't flaunt my sexuality, either, other than wearing a wedding ring. They're not hiring you to have sex with you, so what difference does it make. DanP ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:58 1999 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 16:47:35 -0500 From: will connelly To: DJML Subject: December 11th Memorial Jazz for Bassist Ray Brown Message-ID: <38483A77.40AE65B5@ocean.nova.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Friends . . . Musician and fan friends of South Florida jazz bassist Ray Brown (not the fine black bassist), who died Monday, are invited to pay their last respects and eulogize Ray in words and music at 1:30 P.M. Saturday, December 11th American Legion Post 180 1280 44th Terrace Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Not all of you knew Ray, of course, but you might know people who did, and it would be nice if you could help spread the word. Ray would have been 85 in January. He was born in Deversville, New York and began playing professionally when he was 14. In the early years, he travelled extensively with territory bands throughout the east and midwest, with occasional forays to points as distant as Wyoming. He was on the Francis Craig band when the hit recording "Near You" was made. He also played long stints with the Alan Holmes and Gene Pringle Orchestras, and had his own band that worked Illinois and Indiana in the 1950s. He played with Billy Maxted and Johnny Mince on Bill Thomas's Bourbon Street Jazz Band, was a faithful member of the Hot Jazz and Alligator Gumbo Society (which is supporting this memorial) and played often in educational and charity appearances of that organization's Everglades Drainage Krewe. Those who would like to may send condolences to Ardel Brown, 8401 N.W. 14th Avenue, Lot F-14, Miami, Florida 33147 or call her at 1-305-693-0054. Kindly Will Connelly From ???@??? Sat Dec 04 08:35:58 1999 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 17:19:20 -0500 From: kingbone@earthlink.net To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Raph's Dance Band Reading Message-ID: <384841E7.68F85C2B@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The version of Dance Band Reading available from Hickeys is in bass clef but is NOT for bass trombone only. I bought it through them in August. If you can't find it under method books, try the overall serach using the name Raph. I also recommend Bop Duets by Bugs Bower -- slightly harder but great nonetheless. Dave Molter Pittsburgh,PA > trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu wrote: > > TROMBONE-L Digest 1527 > > Topics covered in this issue include: > > 1) Re: Alan Raph's "Dance Band Reading" > by Steve Butterworth > 2) re. "snob" > by Chris Waage > 3) Michael Rath Trombones > by "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." > 4) Re: Michael Rath Trombones > by Chris Waage > 5) Bakersfield Bones-Last call > by Sequoia Middle School > 6) RE: It's Not Elitism, It's Snobbism > by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" > 7) RE: It's Not Elitism, It's Snobbism > by Chris Waage > 8) Whoops! > by Sequoia Middle School > 9) yeo mpc for sale > by Charles > 10) Help needed > by Howard Weiner > 11) Re: Conical Tbone Comeback > by sabutin@mindspring.com > 12) Re: Conical Tbone Comeback > by Sequoia Middle School > 13) Re: Conical Tbone Comeback > by Dennis Clason > 14) Online Archive of Digests > by Listmonitor Trombone-L > 15) re. Online Archive of Digests > by Listmonitor Trombone-L > 16) Re: In praise of elitism > by "Daniel Pliskin" > 17) Re: Help!! Dark Eyes > by "Daniel Pliskin" > 18) Digest Archives > by Listmonitor Trombone-L > 19) RE: It's Not Elitism, It's Snobbism > by "Daniel Pliskin" > 20) RE: Conical Tbone Comeback > by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" > 21) RE: In praise of elitism > by "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> > 22) RE: Music for the Masses (was It's Not Elitism, It's Snobbism) > by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" > 23) Re: Conical Tbone Comeback > by Sequoia Middle School > 24) OK Guys! > by TonyC789@aol.com > 25) RE: It's Not Elitism, It's Snobbism > by Chris Waage > 26) Re: OK Guys! > by Sequoia Middle School > 27) RE: It's Not Elitism, It's Snobbism > by "Daniel Pliskin" > 28) Re: Help!! Dark Eyes > by Larry & Carol Bronisz > 29) Minick bass on ebay > by "Rodney Ellard" > 30) Snobbism > by Andrewsjon@aol.com > 31) Re: throat constriction/noises > by Tbcwes@aol.com > 32) Re: throat constriction/noises take 2 > by Tbcwes@aol.com > 33) Re: Another Timely Virus Warning for us Trombonists > by Wayne Dyess > 34) Conical Bore Trombones > by Steve Butterworth > 35) Re: Navy School of Music > by Wayne Dyess > 36) RE:Snobism > by Yoda505@aol.com > 37) Re: Snobism > by Atlbrvsnt@aol.com > 38) X-MAS CONCERTS IN LOUISVILLE, KY > by Robert Coulter > 39) Fwd: Snobism > by Yoda505@aol.com > 40) Re: Another Timely Virus Warning for us Trombonists > by "Aaron Roth" > 41) RE: It's Not Elitism, It's Snobbism > by Earl Needham > 42) Re: It's Not Elitism, It's Snobbism > by "Gary D. Maxwell" > 43) Re: trombone FAQ > by Angie Brunk > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: Alan Raph's "Dance Band Reading" > Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 07:28:42 -0500 > From: Steve Butterworth > To: Servo149@aol.com > CC: "Trombones and related issues forum." > > The Dance Band Reading book was basic pablum for me at Humber College in > Toronto. It was only printed in bass cleff and treble cleff(Non-transposed!) in > recent history. This made reading it with the trumpet players very interesting. > They wereconstantly playing it a ninth away from where we were and we thought > they just couldn't read! > > This is a great book for anyone with younger students looking for solid style > exercises and concepts. > > So to answer the question. There was only one bass cleff edition in recent > memory. > > Steve > > Servo149@aol.com wrote: > > > Listers- > > I have recently been looking for a copy of Alan Raph's "Dance Band Reading" > > for Tenor Trombone. After having searched Hickey's and having only come up > > with the Bass edition, I thought I might ask if any of you had leads on how > > to get the Tenor edition. > > Many Thanks, > > Tate Addis > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: re. "snob" > Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 08:23:36 -0600 > From: Chris Waage > To: Trombone-L > > Just an interesting tidbit....unsure of the totality of truth, but it was > an interesting story. > > Historically, members of the noble class have some sort of suffix they add > to their names, i.e., "Duke of Saxony", which identify their lineage and > level of royalty. Many commoners started adopting this practice, but > merely added the Latin phrase "sine nobilitat," or "without nobility." > > With time, this became shortened to the first vowels, or "snob." > > Snob . . . without nobility . . . how appropriate. > > ;-) > > Chris > _____________________________________________ > Chris Waage basstbn@waageworks.com > http://www.waageworks.com > > "Wisdom comes from Knowledge. > Knowledge comes from Good Judgement. > Good Judgement comes from Experience. > Experience comes from Bad Judgement." > _____________________________________________ > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Michael Rath Trombones > Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:02:16 -0500 > From: "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." > To: "Trombones and related issues forum." > > Dear Listers: > I just spent 8 days in the UK on a brass band tour and a friend > that I have cultivated in the UK, Steven Ford, who plays bass trombone > in the Clifton & Lightcliffe Brass Band in the Yorkshire area, > graciously took our brass band trombone section to the Michael Rath > trombone factory in Bradford. I had the opportunity to test one of > these instruments, and I am pleased to report that it was a very good > instrument. I personally preferred the F-attachment model over the > straight bell section. The F-Attachment is equipped with the Hagamann > valve, which I was quite surprised to learn responds just as well as a > Thayer valve, which I have played for over 10 years. The guys in the > shop were quite accomodating, as I had never witnessed how slide tubes > are drawn, but believe me, it is a fascinating process. They start > with a tube of brass about 12" long, and they place it on a mandrel, > and then they place both the tube and the mandrel in a machine that > resembles a metal lathe and the machine streches the tube to slightly > longer than a standard tube. they then cut the end of the tube, and > slide the tube of the mandrel. Believe me, after seeing this, there is > absolutely no way that slide tubes are made crookedly, unless there is > something untrue about the mandrel over which they place they > tube. Whatever hapens after all of the tubes are made and assembled is > another story. > One of my students who plays bass trombone in this band tried the > bass trombone, and even though he had to do some adjusting to having a > low Eb in first position instead of a low D, said that the bass > trombone played better in the upper register than his Edwards. > The price of their tenor trombone with F-attachment is right at > $2300, and they can make it any way you want it. Like all of the > endeavors the British encounter, there is a VERY HIGH, UNCOMPRIMISED > standard of quality. They completely guarantee your satisfaction. I > have temporarily misplaced the literature they gave me, so I don't > have their web address. Perhaps some one their in the UK can help me > with this. From what I understand, Steve Dillion will be their US > distributor very soon. > > > Paul Kemp > Chattanooga Symphony > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: Michael Rath Trombones > Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 09:13:47 -0600 > From: Chris Waage > To: Trombone-L > > http://www.rathtrombones.com/ > > Chris > > Paul Kemp wrote: > I just spent 8 days in the UK on a > brass band tour and a friend that I have cultivated in the UK, Steven Ford, > who > plays bass trombone in the Clifton Lightcliffe Brass Band in the Yorkshire > area, graciously took our brass band trombone section to the Michael Rath > trombone factory in Bradford. I had the opportunity to test one of these > instruments, and I am pleased to report that it was a very good instrument. I > personally preferred the F-attachment model over the straight bell section. > The > F-Attachment is equipped with the Hagamann valve, which I was quite > surprised to > learn responds just as well as a Thayer valve, which I have played for over 10 > years. The guys in the shop were quite accomodating, as I had never witnessed > how slide tubes are drawn, but believe me, it is a fascinating process. They > start with a tube of brass about 12" long, and they place it on a mandrel, and > then they place both the tube and the mandrel in a machine that resembles a > metal lathe and the machine streches the tube to slightly longer than a > standard > tube. they then cut the end of the tube, and slide the tube of the mandrel. > Believe me, after seeing this, there is absolutely no way that slide tubes are > made crookedly, unless there is something untrue about the mandrel over which > they place they tube. Whatever hapens after all of the tubes are made and > assembled is another story. > > One of my students who plays bass trombone in this band tried the bass > trombone, and even though he had to do some adjusting to having a low Eb in > first position instead of a low D, said that the bass trombone played > better in the upper register than his Edwards. > > The price of their tenor trombone with F-attachment is right at $2300, and > they can make it any way you want it. Like all of the endeavors the British > encounter, there is a VERY HIGH, UNCOMPRIMISED standard of quality. They > completely guarantee your satisfaction. I have temporarily misplaced the > literature they gave me, so I don't have their web address. Perhaps some > one their in the UK can help me with this. From what I understand, Steve > Dillion will be their US distributor very soon. > _____________________________________________ > Chris Waage basstbn@waageworks.com > http://www.waageworks.com > > "Wisdom comes from Knowledge. > Knowledge comes from Good Judgement. > Good Judgement comes from Experience. > Experience comes from Bad Judgement." > _____________________________________________ > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Bakersfield Bones-Last call > Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 07:25:45 -0800 > From: Sequoia Middle School > To: "Trombones and related issues forum." , > Euphonium and Tuba Playing > > Here is the last infor coming from Ron Christian, for those of you in > California and may be planning on joining us for our first Christmas > (Low Brass) gathering. > > For our Christmas performance all bass-clef reading low brass > instruments in addition to the trombones are being included and > encouraged to attend. > > There is absolutely no age discrimination. > > He is having to limit to 100 players (I'll bet he won't send you home > if we go over (:>)) > Call ASAP to reserve your spot (661) 834-8181, or email him at > > > This will a pre-show Christmas concert for the last performance of > Bakersfield Music Theater's. "A Christmas Carol". The show begins at > 2:00pm > > When: Sat., December 18th > Time: Rehearsal from 10:00am - 12:00(noon) > Our concert from 1:15pm - 2:00pm > Where: Bakersfield High School - Harvey Auditorium > 16th & 'H' Street > Dress: White shirt/black pants & Christmas head/neck gear > (Santa Hats, Reindeer antlers, gaudy Ties, etc.) > > If you have a music stand, please bring it. > > Hope ya all come. > > The messenger. > Gary Maxwell > Bass Trombone > Bakersfield Symphony Orchestra > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: RE: It's Not Elitism, It's Snobbism > Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:00:56 -0600 > From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" > To: "Trombones and related issues forum." > > Chris wrote (in part): > > > Granted, I'm not a fan of the "new music" that's out there. Some of it > > sounds like it was music composed by musicians to let performers show > > other > > musicians how great they are at playing their instruments. However, when > > it comes right down to it, musicians are here to communicate. If the > > audience walks away going "Huh?" at the end of the performance, there are > > only two possible causes: > > 1. The music was performed badly. > > 2. They were unprepared for what they heard. > > > I don't completely subscribe to the idea that a failure of > communication rests solely with the receptor. I firmly believe that there > is a third cause: that the communicator failed to adequately communicate his > ideas. Poorly composed music that is expertly performed is still poorly > composed music. Also, as a "music consumer", I have certain expectation > when I purchase a ticket to a performance. I should not have to "prepare" > myself for what I am about to hear. I attend classes to learn. I attend > performances to be entertained. If a person has to spend 5 minutes > preparing me for what I am about to hear (yes, I have been to such > performances), I can be nearly certain that I am about to hear a piece of > music that will not mean that much to me. I really think that it boils down > to your purpose for writing the music. If you write it to satisfy yourself, > and you are happy with it, the piece is a success. If someone else > appreciates it, that is icing on the cake. If, on the other hand, you are > writing a piece of music to convey an idea to an audience, and they all go > "Huh?", then it is you who have failed, not them. > > > What it comes down to is personal taste, a desire to expand your > > understanding of music, and the willingness to learn. > > > Amen! As long as we can understand that it is personal taste, we > can enjoy our music without passing judgement on music that we do not like. > I view music as an extension of the person creating it. There are people > that I don't care to associate with. I am not going to tell anyone else not > to associate with them. There is music that I don't care to hear. If > someone else likes it, they should listen to it without prejudice on my > part. > > Ken Dowdy > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: RE: It's Not Elitism, It's Snobbism > Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:14:21 -0600 > From: Chris Waage > To: Trombone-L > > I left out a #3 in my list of causes: > 3. Bad compostion > > There is such a thing as bad music - just because you are capable of > putting pen to paper (or pigment/toner to paper, if using a computer) and > find someone perform it doesn't make it good music. > > Chris > > >Chris wrote (in part): > > > >> Granted, I'm not a fan of the "new music" that's out there. Some of it > >> sounds like it was music composed by musicians to let performers show > >> other > >> musicians how great they are at playing their instruments. However, when > >> it comes right down to it, musicians are here to communicate. If the > >> audience walks away going "Huh?" at the end of the performance, there are > >> only two possible causes: > >> 1. The music was performed badly. > >> 2. They were unprepared for what they heard. > >> > > Ken Dowdy wrote: > > I don't completely subscribe to the idea that a failure of > >communication rests solely with the receptor. I firmly believe that there > >is a third cause: that the communicator failed to adequately communicate his > >ideas. Poorly composed music that is expertly performed is still poorly > >composed music. Also, as a "music consumer", I have certain expectation > >when I purchase a ticket to a performance. I should not have to "prepare" > >myself for what I am about to hear. I attend classes to learn. I attend > >performances to be entertained. If a person has to spend 5 minutes > >preparing me for what I am about to hear (yes, I have been to such > >performances), I can be nearly certain that I am about to hear a piece of > >music that will not mean that much to me. I really think that it boils down > >to your purpose for writing the music. If you write it to satisfy yourself, > >and you are happy with it, the piece is a success. If someone else > >appreciates it, that is icing on the cake. If, on the other hand, you are > >writing a piece of music to convey an idea to an audience, and they all go > >"Huh?", then it is you who have failed, not them. > > > >> What it comes down to is personal taste, a desire to expand your > >> understanding of music, and the willingness to learn. > >> > > Amen! As long as we can understand that it is personal taste, we > >can enjoy our music without passing judgement on music that we do not like. > >I view music as an extension of the person creating it. There are people > >that I don't care to associate with. I am not going to tell anyone else not > >to associate with them. There is music that I don't care to hear. If > >someone else likes it, they should listen to it without prejudice on my > >part. > > > > Ken Dowdy > > _____________________________________________ > Chris Waage basstbn@waageworks.com > http://www.waageworks.com > > "Wisdom comes from Knowledge. > Knowledge comes from Good Judgement. > Good Judgement comes from Experience. > Experience comes from Bad Judgement." > _____________________________________________ > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Whoops! > Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 08:52:39 -0800 > From: Sequoia Middle School > To: "Trombones and related issues forum." , > Euphonium and Tuba Playing > > Of course, I did not mean to exclude those outside of California. Every > Bass Clef, Brass Wind instrumentalist is invited to join us on the > 18th. Come on World! > > I already have you down Joe. I'll be looking forward to sharing a stand > with you. > > As always, > Gary Maxwell > Bass Trombone > Bakersfield Symphony Orchestra > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: yeo mpc for sale > Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 11:11:42 -0500 > From: Charles > To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu > > I have another Yeo mouthpiece, new (played once) $95 + shipping. > > Call @ 904 7494010 or email chardy@totcon.com > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Help needed > Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 18:59:42 > From: Howard Weiner > To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu > > Does anyone out there recognize the following quote. It is supposedly by > George Bernard Shaw, supposedly from his "On Playing Wind Instruments", in > _On Music and Musicians_. This "version," however, has been retranslated > from Russian back into English, and is nowhere to be found in the volumes > of Shaw's Collected Works containing his music criticisms. > > "I would rather think that the draught [?] for wind instruments is > passed from one generation to another. My father broke his family comfort > by immoderate draught [???] for a trombone; my uncle played for many years > - very well, I must say - the ophicleide. Some day I shall have a trombone, > too." > > Any help in finding and identifying the original text will be greatly > appreciated. > > Howard > > -- > Howard Weiner > weiner@privat.toplink.de > www.odilia.ch/howard-weiner > > "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture" > - attributed to Frank Zappa > > "Beschriebene Musik ist wie ein erzŠhltes Mittagessen" > - Franz Grillparzer zugeschrieben > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: Conical Tbone Comeback > Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 13:32:47 -0500 > From: sabutin@mindspring.com > To: burger2go@compuserve.com > CC: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu > > At 08:15 AM 11/30/99 +0100, you wrote: > >Hey - > >I know I brought this up on the list, and was shot at by some sceptics, but > >I have been playing the Cortierer Conical Trombone for about four months, > >and I am sure that this is a horn to make. The one i am playin is from 1929, > >and had been used alot, so the slide is not the greatest. I saw a gold > >plated one on ebay, and should have bought it, but the knife my wife has to > >my throut convinced me otherwise. > > ======================== > > ---snip--- > > ============================ > > > >I have been working with a brilliant young brass maker - a master graduate > >of the Alexander Factory - and we have corrected and improved all of the > >manifacturing problems associated with this design, through modern technics > >and materials (no PVC...). It is my thought to produce three horns, one in > >the .500 - .509 range, one in the .530 range, and one in the .547 size. The > >intention is to make a horn that has the same resistance and blow of horns > >in this range, but allow the player to enjoy the wonders of a conical horn. > >Each will fit to two different bells, one a more conventional but conical > >design, and the other more closely resembling a flugle horn (no, not a > >euphonium - which is quite different in flare). The horn will have no > >interuptions in the conicality when in first position, and there will be no > >interuption for a tuning slide. Also, the will be only two internally > >dropped edges, both with less than a .5 mm edge, so the horn will have very > >little internal interference. I am very excicted about the prototype, and > >just pose a simple question - If I am able to find a builder to produce > >these commercialy ( it is improbable that I will make a dime - I just think > >it's a great horn!!) do you think you'd try one? It would seem to be a > >better cry than these mutant dual bore horns. Comments to list or my > >personal email: > >burger2go@compuserve.com > > > >Thanks for your thoughts > > > >Eric Burger > >USAREUR Band > >Heidelberg Germany > > ========================== > > Eric... > > Of course I'd try one. > > I am rather skeptical about both the design and your chances of success > in building the horn, but the IDEA is great. > > My skepticism derives from this idea...what WORKS best eventually > becomes part of common practice design, in a "survival of the fittest" sense. > > If this design is so good, why didn't it survive and predominate? Slide > tuning horns, for example, didn't predominate even though they have > particularly good playing characteristics because they were too heavy in > the slide for most people to play and also because they were more expensive > to make and more complicated to maintain. Open wrap, on the other hand, > appears to have generally won over closed wrap. because it offers more > pluses than minuses. > > As far as PRODUCING the horn...money money money money money money money > money money money money money money money money money money money . If you > can raise the cash, you can produce some horns. If they make money, you can > produce more, and the best of luck to you in the endeavour. > > Later... > > S. > > P.S. I mean what I said about trying the horn. I'd LOVE to find a new > idea that works in horn design. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: Conical Tbone Comeback > Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 11:24:26 -0800 > From: Sequoia Middle School > To: sabutin@mindspring.com > CC: "Trombones and related issues forum." > > sabutin@mindspring.com wrote: > > > I am rather skeptical about both the design and your chances of success > > in building the horn, but the IDEA is great. > > > > My skepticism derives from this idea...what WORKS best eventually > > becomes part of common practice design, in a "survival of the fittest" sense. > > > > If this design is so good, why didn't it survive and predominate? > > > > > P.S. I mean what I said about trying the horn. I'd LOVE to find a new > > idea that works in horn design. > > I tried very hard to purchase the gold plated Couturier trombone listed on > ebay, but was beaten out by $2 (another story). I was very interested in trying > it also, because I own its smaller brother: a conical bore trumpet made Sept.24,