Subject: Trombone-l Digest, Vol 36, Issue 12 Date: Saturday, January 12, 2008 12:00 PM From: trombone-l-request@samford.edu Reply-To: trombone-l@samford.edu To: Conversation: Trombone-l Digest, Vol 36, Issue 12 Send Trombone-l mailing list submissions to trombone-l@samford.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to trombone-l-request@samford.edu You can reach the person managing the list at trombone-l-owner@samford.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Trombone-l digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Get a real alto trombone mouthpiece (emrose79@sonic.net) 2. Re: mouthpiece changes (Dave Demko) 3. Re: Get a real alto trombone mouthpiece (Daniel Pliskin) 4. [BUCKINGHAMSHIRE, United Kingdom] Towcester Studio Band Vacancy (Nigel Horne) 5. Compensating systems (WAS: Get a real alto ... ) (Dick Sleeman) 6. Iraqi National Orchestra (Earl Needham) 7. Re: Get a real alto trombone mouthpiece (Tom Izzo) 8. Re: Get a real alto trombone mouthpiece (Adrian Drover) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:34:52 -0800 From: emrose79@sonic.net Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Get a real alto trombone mouthpiece To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <4787C4DC.7060202@sonic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Isn't that one of the reasons that trumpets have that ring on the third valve tuning slide? Ed Daniel Pliskin wrote: > > Valves give you approximate tubing lengths and its up to you to lip the rest. > > DanP > > _________________________________________________________________ > Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista? + Windows Live?. > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_012008 > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > > ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:14:58 -0500 From: "Dave Demko" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] mouthpiece changes To: Trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: <6e4c5d5c0801111214q177ddcb1tdc59b467c2f1c5b9@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Thanks, all, for the suggestions about mouthpiece-hunting. I'm going to clock my mouthpieces to see what I discover. Chuck wrote that mouthpiece-shoppers "need to know specifically what problem they are trying to solve in their playing," and a few of you have repeated the point about changing to fix a problem or achieve a particular goal, not just "because." Tom Gibson's mouthpiece page (http://trombonelessons.com/mpanatomy/mpanatomy.html) is helpful on goal-oriented mouthpiece selection. A few of you have made the good point about the relative importance of practice and gear. The advice not to make frequent changes fits with my experience, too. My specific mouthpiece-related objectives are better-speaking pedal tones (main goal) and better legato. The main answer is, of course, more practice. But I can see how a well chosen cup depth and rim shape could help with those aspects. I adopted the Bach 5G a year ago as the default for a new .547 horn. I'm not unhappy with it, and the rim is not unlike my old 51D. But did I find the best choice for me on my first guess? Maybe, but I can't tell. So I'm experimenting for the sake of a good fit as much as trying to solve a specific problem. The 6 1/2 AL I tried out of curiosity. A friend's son plays one on his .547. I'm not going with one of those. Dan P, your thoughts on mouthpiece tweaking got me thinking that the 6 1/2 AL might be a good candidate for throat-widening and backbore-reaming. If the thing blew more freely, it could be good for getting a brighter sound. But that's not what I'm looking for. The blindfold test is a good idea, probably a necessity to keep thoughts of how a given model "should" sound from influencing what I hear. If you see me selling several "like new - barely used" mouthpieces in the trombone.org classifieds, that will mean I tried this approach and found a winner. Which might be my current mouthpiece. Thanks again for the advice, which I think will keep my experiments organized and my expectations realistic. On Jan 8, 2008 3:55 PM, Tom Ervin wrote: > What great advice so far. May I ramble on? > 2 stories, either of which MAY be relevant to the wonderful > discussion on changing equipment: > > 1) A fine clarinetist friend of mine chose to start (again) > practicing 4-5 hours a day for an upcoming international appearance. > He told me, "You know how we reed players always complain about > reeds? Buying a whole box only to find 2 that will work? Ever since I > started practicing superlong hours like this, I've found that Darn > Near Any Reed will do!" > > 2) Some fine clinician, I've forgotten who, maybe a trumpet guy, > said, "Getting a new mouthpiece is kinda like getting a new > girlfriend." (I don't mean this to be dirty, really!) "The ADVANTAGES > are immediately apparent; the DARK SIDE shows up a few weeks later." > The downside of a new mouthpiece may not appear in your playing for > awhile. What a stinker of a problem! > > So, yes, there are a lot of different mouthpieces out there. Several > (or several dozen) are widely accepted for providing most of us with > a good balance of power, range, comfort, a standard sound, > flexibility, a good feel and no endurance problems, etc. And there > are surely some mouthpieces being sold that NOBODY should probably > use, and hardly anyone does use. Maybe we can get used to anything, > but I do think there are some models out there that were made by the > Devil. > > Some few players can switch mouthpieces frequently with good success > ("This one I like for the Bolero"), but many other players switch > frequently with bad results, and wonder why. > > It's worth shopping around, absolutely, if your present equipment is > not working. But it might also be the guy behind the mouthpiece; be > sure you're doing your part. > > Tom Ervin > ervint@u.arizona.edu > Prof of Trombone, Univ Arizona (Emeritus) > ...now a recovering trombone player.... ; >} > (520)241-4411 (cell) > website: tom-ervin.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:07:22 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Get a real alto trombone mouthpiece To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > > Valves give you approximate tubing lengths and its up to you to lip the rest. > Isn't that one of the reasons that trumpets have that ring on the third > valve tuning slide? Yes the ring is basically attached to a tuning slide, for the purpose of adjusting the pitch of the trumpet. I understand that piccolo trumpets aren't playable without a fourth valve. And lots of euphoniums have a thumb lever, which attaches to a tuning slide. If you look at equal temperament, for example, the length of the tubing for each successively lower note should be longer by the twelfth root of two (almost 106%) times the length of the pipe from the semitone above it. So you can't just add two intervals to get the tubing length for a third interval. As such, I think the idea of a trumpet with less than 12 valves is a bad idea and should be scrapped. Even I didn't see that coming. It's so hard to play trombone when you're always putting your foot in your mouth. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Make distant family not so distant with Windows Vista? + Windows Live?. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/digitallife/keepintouch.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_VideoChat_distantfamily_012008 ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:28:22 GMT From: Nigel Horne Subject: [Trombone-l] [BUCKINGHAMSHIRE, United Kingdom] Towcester Studio Band Vacancy To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <200801112228.m0BMSMnI017732@njh.bandsman.co.uk> Towcester Studio Band, Milton Keynes, BUCKINGHAMSHIRE, United Kingdom (Section 1) has an immediate vacancy for a trombone player. Contact Brian Keech at briankeech@hotmail.com. Practices Monday & Wednesday 8 - 10pm. For Details contact Secretary Dan Smith 07774 932475 ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:56:52 +0100 From: "Dick Sleeman" Subject: [Trombone-l] Compensating systems (WAS: Get a real alto ... ) To: "Trombone-List" Message-ID: <000f01c854ad$c181e510$4901a8c0@dick> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original DanP wrote a.o.: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- My general feeling is that valved instruments are designed to not center as well as trombones, because the player needs to lip notes up and down, just to get the thing to play in tune. I'm not saying that the instrument is badly designed, but a selection of three lengths of tubing will never center on equal temperament or even just tuning. Valves give you approximate tubing lengths and its up to you to lip the rest. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ then Ed wrote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Isn't that one of the reasons that trumpets have that ring on the third valve tuning slide? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ then DanP answered: (edited) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yes the ring is basically attached to a tuning slide, for the purpose of adjusting the pitch of the trumpet. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The professional types also have a ring attached to the tuning slide of the first valve! There is however a so called 'compensating system' that is used for larger brass instruments, like French horns, euphoniums and tubas, where the adjustments would be proportionally larger. There is a nice article written by David Werden about the ins and outs of compensating systems at: http://www.dwerden.com/eu-articles-comp.cfm There is a comprehensive study by Frederic J. Young, published in four articles in the T.U.B.A. Journal of May, August and November 1986, and Februari 1087, entitled "The Optimal Design and Fair Comparison of Valve Systems for Brass Instruments". I have not been able to track these articles down on the internet. Regards, Dick ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:00:36 -0700 From: Earl Needham Subject: [Trombone-l] Iraqi National Orchestra To: trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: <20080112000043.2FDD88697CF@spamcuda2.samford.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I don't usually care for CNN, they seem to have a viewpoint that I don't care for. Even so, I was just in McDonalds in Wellston, Ok, and CNN was showing a story on the Iraqi National Orchestra. That such a group can play in the midst of the conflict they are in just brought tears to my eyes. I was riveted to the spot until the story was over. Way to go you guys! Young ladies, too! Earl KD5XB -- Earl Needham Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cw_bugs Quoting from the Coast Guard: ZUT ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:59:19 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Izzo Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Get a real alto trombone mouthpiece To: emrose79@sonic.net, trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <540929.50572.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 --- emrose79@sonic.net wrote: > Isn't that one of the reasons that trumpets have > that ring on the third > valve tuning slide? > Ed Yes & some have 1st valve rings and/or both slides. But these only help correct lower pitches requiring 2/3, 1/3, & 1/2/3 valve combinations. Higher notes should be lipped in tune. No valve equiv of sharp 2nd or flatted fourth, etc. Tom > > > Daniel Pliskin wrote: > > > > Valves give you approximate tubing lengths and > its up to you to lip the rest. > > > > DanP > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Put your friends on the big screen with Windows > Vista? + Windows Live?. > > > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_012008 > > _______________________________________________ > > Trombone-l mailing list > > Trombone-l@samford.edu > > > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > Tom Izzo Principal Trombonist, Bristol Renaissance Faire; Bass Trombonist, West Suburban Symphony Orchestra; Founding Director, The Naperville Area Trombone Ensemble; Alto/Tenor/Bass/Contrabass Trombones, Tubas, Euphonium, Bass Trumpet, Electric Bass, Timpani & Percussion. http://www.Geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/7875/ (630) 765-0154 ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 07:00:28 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Get a real alto trombone mouthpiece To: "'Tom Izzo'" , , Message-ID: <000901c854e8$d1806e60$0400a8c0@Adrian> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > From: Tom Izzo > > Yes & some have 1st valve rings and/or both slides. > But these only help correct lower pitches requiring > 2/3, 1/3, & 1/2/3 valve combinations. Higher notes > should be lipped in tune. Hmmm, Tom. It is true that combinations of valves, particularly those which include the 3rd valve are sharp, but there is no reason why the 1st valve slide cannot be used to correct the tuning on that valve alone, particularly for the flat 5th harmonic and maybe the sharp 6th harmonic. In the interests of tone production, I would say that having the correct length of tubing is preferable to lipping a note in tune. A. ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l End of Trombone-l Digest, Vol 36, Issue 12 ******************************************