Subject: Trombone-l Digest, Vol 36, Issue 4 Date: Friday, January 4, 2008 12:00 PM From: trombone-l-request@samford.edu Reply-To: trombone-l@samford.edu To: Conversation: Trombone-l Digest, Vol 36, Issue 4 Send Trombone-l mailing list submissions to trombone-l@samford.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to trombone-l-request@samford.edu You can reach the person managing the list at trombone-l-owner@samford.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Trombone-l digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Improv in daily routine (Daryl Burch) 2. Improv in daily routine (Jeff@SlideAdams.com) 3. improv in practicing (Tom Ervin) 4. Re: Fwd: Improv in daily routine (Wayne Dyess) 5. Re: Improv in daily routine (Wayne Dyess) 6. Re: Improv in daily routine (ALEX ILES) 7. Re: Improv in daily routine (Bob Koester) 8. Re: Improv in daily routine (Wayne Dyess) 9. Re: Improv in daily routine (Daryl Burch) 10. Re: Improv in daily routine (Rod Ellard) 11. Re: improv in practicing (Daniel Pliskin) 12. Re: Bonearama at the Sugar Bowl (emrose79@sonic.net) 13. Re: Improv in daily routine (Daniel Pliskin) 14. Re: Bonearama at the Sugar Bowl (Daniel Pliskin) 15. Re: Bonearama at the Sugar Bowl (Mark Mohwinkel) 16. Sam Burtis at Birdland, NYC w/The Giants of Latin Jazz, Birdland, NYC 1/22-26 w/The Smithsonian Jazz Masterworks Orchestra, Egypt(!!!) 2/14-19 (sabutin) 17. Sam Burtis at Birdland, NYC w/The Giants of Latin Jazz, Birdland, NYC 1/22-26 w/The Smithsonian Jazz Masterworks Orchestra, Egypt(!!!) 2/14-19 (sabutin) 18. And...Sam Burtis w/The Smithsonian Jazz Masterworks Orchestra, Egypt(!!!) 2/14-19 (sabutin) 19. And...Sam Burtis w/The Smithsonian Jazz Masterworks Orchestra, Egypt(!!!) 2/14-19 (sabutin) 20. Re: Improv in daily routine (Jeff@SlideAdams.com) 21. Fwd: Improv in daily routine (bjmchaffie@aol.com) 22. Sorry about the double posts. (sabutin) 23. Sorry about the double posts. (sabutin) 24. Re: Fwd: Improv in daily routine (Oscar Utterstr?m) 25. Re: Sorry about the double posts. (Dick Sleeman) 26. Re: Berlioz, Beethoven (Dick Sleeman) 27. Re: Berlioz, Beethoven (Howard Weiner) 28. Re: Berlioz, Beethoven (Dick Sleeman) 29. Re: Berlioz, Beethoven (Keith Marr) 30. 2008 MMEA - Tan-Tar-A (Jim Hale) 31. Re: Sorry about the double posts. (sabutin) 32. Re: Berlioz, Beethoven (Howard Weiner) 33. Re: Berlioz, Beethoven (Walter Barrett) 34. historically informed performances was Berlioz, Beethoven (Jeff Albert) 35. Re: Berlioz, Beethoven (Howard Weiner) 36. Re: Berlioz, Beethoven (Howard Weiner) 37. [CORNWALL, United Kingdom] Callington Town Band Vacancy (Nigel Horne) 38. Re: Berlioz, Beethoven (Daniel Pliskin) 39. Re: Improv in daily routine (John Burton) 40. Re: Sorry about the double posts. (John Burton) 41. Re: Berlioz, Beethoven (Tom Izzo) 42. Re: Berlioz, Beethoven (Ray Horton) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 10:09:33 -0800 From: Daryl Burch Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Improv in daily routine To: List Trombone Message-ID: <59C28E40-9EBF-4A7C-BB43-52C3E144433D@burchinteractive.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed OK, $0.03 about transcribe: It also has a spectral analyzer that will show you the pitches played wherever the cursor is stopped. So, if you're not sure of a note, you can see the tonal structure in a graph over a piano keyboard to show you the structure of the chord at that given moment. Thereby, giving you a better shot at guessing what note the player meant. (I REAAALLLLY could've used that feature when in college trying to transcribe Miles' solo on "So What"!) That, and the ability to loop a passage at slower speeds so you can play along until you figure it out, make it well worth the price of admission. Audacity is a free sound wave editor that can do kinda the same things. But it's more designed for making MP3s than for figuring out tunes. Cheers! -D- www.radionoise.com <- Rock star by night www.burchinteractive.com <- Tech-nerd by day #;-) On Jan 3, 2008, at 9:15 AM, Daryl Burch wrote: I concur. Transcribe! is way too worth it! However, it's available at seventhstring.com (TwelveString.com is a colored pencil artist's site.) It is available for XP, Mac & Linux. You can download a 30-day trial from the site. And you have to admit, you've spent 50 bucks dummer! My $0.02, anyway. Cheers! -D- www.radionoise.com <- Rock star by night www.burchinteractive.com <- Tech-nerd by day #;-) On Jan 2, 2008, at 8:30 PM, Chris Tune wrote: Patterns for Improvisation, by Jerry Coker was useful. The Jamey Aebersold recordings are useful. Transcribing is useful. [there is useful software out there called "Transcribe" by Twelve String software--it allows you to slow down fast licks and yet keep the pitch the same. . .also great for changing the keys of music to your liking-- you can load mp3 or wav files and then highlight the section you want and then go] Mostly, I like to get a solo in bands and see what I can do with them. Some tunes are more challenging to get the sound in your head than others, but then, it seems that being persistent on these tunes pays off. I think it took longer for me to mature to my present point as a improviser than I would have liked, but the trip was worth it. Chris -----Original Message----- From: trombone-l-bounces@samford.edu [mailto:trombone-l- bounces@samford.edu] On Behalf Of Oscar Utterstr?m Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 12:48 PM To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Subject: [Trombone-l] Improv in daily routine Here are some questions for you improvisers out there: - What material(s) do you use to develop your improvisation skills (such as Crook, Bergonzi, Neumeister etc.)? - Do you incorporate improvisation as part of your daily routine? If so, what do you work on? Standards, licks, progressions, free, etc.? Happy New Year! Oscar Utterstr?m Nashville, TN _________________________________________________________________ St?r karri?ren still? L?t n?gon annan hitta dr?mjobbet ?t dig! http://msn.jobbguiden.se/jobseeker/resumes/postresumenew/ postresumestart.asp x?sc_cmp2=JS_INT_SEMSN_NLPCV _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 13:33:32 -0500 From: "Jeff@SlideAdams.com" Subject: [Trombone-l] Improv in daily routine To: trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes What a great discussion! Just one thing to add. Hal Crook is a guru with this stuff and teaching his improv methods at Berklee--imagine, a bonist education sax, keyboard & guitarists on improv--awesome!!! Check out his book "Ready, Aim, Improvise." It has excellent plans to break down different aspects of improv so that you can focus here or there and see some actual improvement in your vocabulary and ideas. He also has great practice-time timing schedules to make the most use of limited practice time. Personally, prior to working with Hals methods I spent a ton of time with Aebersold and with BIAB. Cheers! Jeff Adams Jazz Chair, Jazz Ambassadors, DC www.SlideAdams.com ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 11:39:21 -0700 From: Tom Ervin Subject: [Trombone-l] improv in practicing To: Trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: <185D6131-6845-4381-A12E-D386B525AA61@u.arizona.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Maybe somebody mentioned it and i overlooked it, but don't leave out COPYING and IMITATING other fine players you love. I think I still have some good stuff up on my website. Need theory Need to learn lotsa tunes Gonna need some range and endurance Will need technique-enough to play the things you imagine Must listen Should know some jazz history etc. But also do COPY some from your heroes' best stuff. Transcribe it if you wish, or must, or simply memorize it. Both procedures will involve extensive, repetitive listening, and that's the main point (perhaps). One of my old improv students said, "But I really don't want to play like Carl Fontana." I said, "Two things! Yes you do; and don't worry, you won't." Tom Ervin ervint@u.arizona.edu Prof of Trombone, Univ Arizona (Emeritus) ...now a recovering trombone player.... ; >} (520)241-4411 (cell) website: tom-ervin.com ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 12:46:06 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Fwd: Improv in daily routine To: ALEX ILES , List Trombone Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Man, is this fun, or whut? Trombone-L is starting to look like its old self again. Alex, this is great. Thanks again for taking the time to put your valuable thoughts on paper. I agree with both you and Dan and the other contributors. My point, which wasn't stated very well I admit... was that to be a good improviser, one must first learn the instrument. But it goes so much deeper than that, doesn't it? I think you summed it up quite nicely. And I love that old adage: Just have fun. That's been my entire trombone life, right there. I'm having a ball!!!!!!! Lovin' da bone after all these years. 60 and qualifying for senior citizen discounts. Ha! Wayne On Jan 3, 2008, at 11:51 AM, ALEX ILES wrote: > Hi all, > > For the improvisor, scales are like vocabulary to a writer or > colors on a palette to a painter. They are really useful once they > represent a sound to the user. Improvisors practice them with the > goal of hearing ideas and creating sounds from those notes. Yes, > one starts by playing them "do, re, mi" fashion, but also, in 3rds, > in patterns, etc. > > But, just as for a composer who writes music down, improvisors > learn to play with, embellish and manipulate scales to the point > where they generate ideas with that given series of notes--in real > time. Improvisation is not all math and analysis. Too many > inexperienced look at scales as the "answer". They are merely a > suggestion. > > DanP, you summed up my thoughts perfectly with this.... > >> I shun the mentality that you can't get started until you know X, >> Y and Z. That's the same mentality that got them to the point of >> having to ask how to get started on improvisation. > > I don't think this goes against what you say here at all too much, > Wayne. Scale practice is beneficial to learning your instrument. It > helps solidify the connection between the sounds in your head and > the right place to stick your slide and chops to get 'em to come > out. It also gives players the ability to hear/read music in bigger > chunks. > > But in terms of improvisation, the benefit comes when that chunk of > information becomes real sounds [not just a bunch of notes to apply > to a chord symbol]. And in order for that to happen, the player > really should have been listening and experimenting on his/her horn > without any "knowledge" and have open ears and the curiosity to > play with the knowledge once they acquire it. > > Tying things back to Oscar's original post... > > I recommend infusing your daily routine with the "spirit" of > improvisation as well as including specific "improv-specific" > exercises. Maybe this is more of an idea of "flexibility" or > "curiosity". Whichever.... > > Everytime you say to yourself, "Gee, I wonder what this Rochut > would sound like up a 4th", or "What if I played Bolero right now > like Tommy Dorsey?" [which a conductor actually asked me to do in > real life!!] you are infusing this spirit into your practice. DON'T > IGNORE THAT LITTLE VOICE. > > It represents an attitude of open-minded musicianship that nearly > every great player I have ever spent time observing possesses and > expresses. [This includes orchestral players like Joe Alessi!]. > Take some risks in your practice room. It also keeps you from > falling into that practicing-only-what-you-know syndrome. > > Besides, if you are in a practice room... > > What have you got to lose?! > > And when you bring this musical/improvisational/flexible spirit to > your outside musical world, you start to experience music on a > whole other level!! > > To quote Sam Burtis... > > "HAVE FUN"!! > > Alex Iles > > On Jan 3, 2008, at 9:12 AM, Wayne Dyess wrote: > >> I didn't read your response closely enough, Dan. Re-read it just >> now. I think we can agree that one has to practice improvisation in >> order to become a good improviser (and player). Right? >> >> I certainly agree with ya on that one. But I also think there is a >> methodology that can get you there, just as in all other practice. I >> bet we would agree on that, too. >> >> I responded on list too soon. >> Sorry. >> >> Wayne >> >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >>> From: Wayne Dyess >>> Date: January 3, 2008 11:00:06 AM CST >>> To: Daniel Pliskin , List Trombone >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Improv in daily routine >>> >>> >>> On Jan 3, 2008, at 10:34 AM, Daniel Pliskin wrote: >>> >>>> I shun the mentality that you can't get started until you know X, Y >>>> and Z. That's the same mentality that got them to the point of >>>> having to ask how to get started on improvisation. And surely, in >>>> order to get good at improvisation, you need to practice >>>> improvisation. >>>> >>>> DanP >>> >>> >>> >>> Maybe. But ya gotta start somewhere. Same is true whether it is >>> jazz improvisation or an orchestral transcription. There is a good >>> bit of legwork needed before one can be successful. >>> >>> So I guess we will have to agree to differ on this one. I think you >>> do need to know A, B, and C before you get to X, Y and Z. >>> >>> >>> With all due respect, >>> --Wayne >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Trombone-l mailing list >>> Trombone-l@samford.edu >>> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l >> >> >> Dr. J. Wayne Dyess >> Professor of Trombone >> and Director of Jazz Studies >> P. O. Box 10044 >> Lamar University-Beaumont, Texas 77710 >> Visit our alumni jazz band website @ >> http://www.ndotex.com >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Trombone-l mailing list >> Trombone-l@samford.edu >> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 13:03:26 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Improv in daily routine To: "Jeff@SlideAdams.com" Cc: trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: <3BA725D7-56C7-4842-AF5A-270B445DB0B2@gt.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed I didn't know about Hal Crook's book, Jeff. I had the great opportunity of hearing him live with Phil Woods at the New Orleans IAJE a number of years ago. What an ear-opening concert that was! I'm putting "Ready, Aim, Improvise" on my list of things I need to buy. Thanks, Wayne On Jan 3, 2008, at 12:33 PM, Jeff@SlideAdams.com wrote: > What a great discussion! > > Just one thing to add. > Hal Crook is a guru with this stuff and teaching his improv methods at > Berklee--imagine, a bonist education sax, keyboard & guitarists on > improv--awesome!!! Check out his book "Ready, Aim, Improvise." It > has excellent plans to break down different aspects of improv so that > you can focus here or there and see some actual improvement in your > vocabulary and ideas. He also has great practice-time timing > schedules to make the most use of limited practice time. > > Personally, prior to working with Hals methods I spent a ton of time > with Aebersold and with BIAB. > > Cheers! > > Jeff Adams > Jazz Chair, Jazz Ambassadors, DC > www.SlideAdams.com ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 11:21:21 -0800 From: ALEX ILES Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Improv in daily routine To: Wayne Dyess Cc: trombone-l@samford.edu, "Jeff@SlideAdams.com" Message-ID: <59070E18-8CF6-4C58-8B3E-A9ECDC109939@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Great book suggestion! Also [probably for more advanced students], I would recommend Hal Crook's "How to Improvise". Another jazz musician/author who approach improv in a very practical, artistic and creative way is Mark Levine. His book, "The Jazz Piano Book" is a great read and has exercises which emphasize fundamentals and creativity simultaneously. He will show a theoretical concept, then show you how Herbie Hancock or Bill Evans might apply it. Eye/ ear opening stuff for many students. As you read it, you feel like you're just hanging out with the guy, talking music!! [and it is great for non-pianists...like myself!]. Whatever books you use, always return to what you hear and getting that out of your horn! Alex ----------------- On Jan 3, 2008, at 11:03 AM, Wayne Dyess wrote: > I didn't know about Hal Crook's book, Jeff. I had the great > opportunity of hearing him live with Phil Woods at the New Orleans > IAJE a number of years ago. What an ear-opening concert that was! > > I'm putting "Ready, Aim, Improvise" on my list of things I need to > buy. > > Thanks, > Wayne > > > On Jan 3, 2008, at 12:33 PM, Jeff@SlideAdams.com wrote: > >> What a great discussion! >> >> Just one thing to add. >> Hal Crook is a guru with this stuff and teaching his improv >> methods at >> Berklee--imagine, a bonist education sax, keyboard & guitarists on >> improv--awesome!!! Check out his book "Ready, Aim, Improvise." It >> has excellent plans to break down different aspects of improv so that >> you can focus here or there and see some actual improvement in your >> vocabulary and ideas. He also has great practice-time timing >> schedules to make the most use of limited practice time. >> >> Personally, prior to working with Hals methods I spent a ton of time >> with Aebersold and with BIAB. >> >> Cheers! >> >> Jeff Adams >> Jazz Chair, Jazz Ambassadors, DC >> www.SlideAdams.com > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 13:54:51 -0600 From: Bob Koester Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Improv in daily routine To: ALEX ILES , Wayne Dyess , Trombone List Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Alex, Wayne, and others, This has been a really good series of posts. Thanks. Let me throw out one thing that hasn't been mentioned (or at least not that I've seen) and that is the idea of chord/harmonic function particularly as it regards learning tunes and other music and improvisation. Along with tone, scales, and chord spelling, chord function within a piece is extremely important. For example, let's consider a A minor triad. In the context of a piece, is it a I harmony, a VI harmony, a II of V harmony, or a V of II harmony? Certainly it could be any or all of those things. Where that knowledge becomes helpful in improvisation is in being able to hear chordal/harmonic structure particularly in a unfamiliar, or somewhat familiar work. Suppose you've only had a chance to learn a particular tune in C. Knowing the names of the changes in C may not help you if you find you have to play the tune in Eb. Knowing how the chords function in the harmony and hearing that way can help. In short, while a A minor triad might be a VI chord in C, the VI chord function in the tune will be the VI chord function regardless of the key. Best, and belated Happy New Year to all, Bob Bob Koester, President MSI Financial Notice: This e-mail message and any attachment to this email message contain confidential information that my be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not review, retransmit, convert to hard copy, copy, use or disseminate this email or any attachments to it. If you have received this email in error, please immediately notify us by return email or by telephone at 913-341-7108 and delete this message. You may also notify us by surface mail to MSI Financial, 3965 West 83rd St. #114, Prairie Village, KS 66208. Forwarded messages, replies to prior messages, or all of this message or attachments may not have originated at this email address. This notice is automatically appended to all emails leaving this email address. > From: alexiles@earthlink.net > Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 11:21:21 -0800 > To: texastbone@gt.rr.com > CC: trombone-l@samford.edu; slideadams@cablespeed.com > Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Improv in daily routine > > Great book suggestion! > > Also [probably for more advanced students], I would recommend Hal > Crook's "How to Improvise". > > Another jazz musician/author who approach improv in a very practical, > artistic and creative way is Mark Levine. His book, "The Jazz Piano > Book" is a great read and has exercises which emphasize fundamentals > and creativity simultaneously. He will show a theoretical concept, > then show you how Herbie Hancock or Bill Evans might apply it. Eye/ > ear opening stuff for many students. As you read it, you feel like > you're just hanging out with the guy, talking music!! [and it is > great for non-pianists...like myself!]. > > Whatever books you use, always return to what you hear and getting > that out of your horn! > > Alex > ----------------- > On Jan 3, 2008, at 11:03 AM, Wayne Dyess wrote: > >> I didn't know about Hal Crook's book, Jeff. I had the great >> opportunity of hearing him live with Phil Woods at the New Orleans >> IAJE a number of years ago. What an ear-opening concert that was! >> >> I'm putting "Ready, Aim, Improvise" on my list of things I need to >> buy. >> >> Thanks, >> Wayne >> >> >> On Jan 3, 2008, at 12:33 PM, Jeff@SlideAdams.com wrote: >> >>> What a great discussion! >>> >>> Just one thing to add. >>> Hal Crook is a guru with this stuff and teaching his improv >>> methods at >>> Berklee--imagine, a bonist education sax, keyboard & guitarists on >>> improv--awesome!!! Check out his book "Ready, Aim, Improvise." It >>> has excellent plans to break down different aspects of improv so that >>> you can focus here or there and see some actual improvement in your >>> vocabulary and ideas. He also has great practice-time timing >>> schedules to make the most use of limited practice time. >>> >>> Personally, prior to working with Hals methods I spent a ton of time >>> with Aebersold and with BIAB. >>> >>> Cheers! >>> >>> Jeff Adams >>> Jazz Chair, Jazz Ambassadors, DC >>> www.SlideAdams.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Trombone-l mailing list >> Trombone-l@samford.edu >> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 14:05:43 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Improv in daily routine To: Bob Koester Cc: Wayne Dyess , Trombone List Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed That's one reason that Nashville developed their number system for session players. Makes it real easy to change keys for those sangers. W On Jan 3, 2008, at 1:54 PM, Bob Koester wrote: > Alex, Wayne, and others, > This has been a really good series of posts. Thanks. Let me throw > out one thing that hasn't been mentioned (or at least not that I've > seen) and that is the idea of chord/harmonic function particularly > as it regards learning tunes and other music and improvisation. > > Along with tone, scales, and chord spelling, chord function within > a piece is extremely important. For example, let's consider a A > minor triad. In the context of a piece, is it a I harmony, a VI > harmony, a II of V harmony, or a V of II harmony? Certainly it > could be any or all of those things. Where that knowledge becomes > helpful in improvisation is in being able to hear chordal/harmonic > structure particularly in a unfamiliar, or somewhat familiar work. > Suppose you've only had a chance to learn a particular tune in C. > Knowing the names of the changes in C may not help you if you find > you have to play the tune in Eb. Knowing how the chords function > in the harmony and hearing that way can help. In short, while a A > minor triad might be a VI chord in C, the VI chord function in the > tune will be the VI chord function regardless of the key. > > Best, and belated Happy New Year to all, > > Bob > > > > > Bob Koester, President MSI Financial Dr. J. Wayne Dyess Professor of Trombone and Director of Jazz Studies P. O. Box 10044 Lamar University-Beaumont, Texas 77710 Visit our alumni jazz band website @ http://www.ndotex.com ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 12:06:49 -0800 From: Daryl Burch Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Improv in daily routine To: Bob Koester Cc: Wayne Dyess , Trombone List Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed This understanding has helped me tremendously to "fake" it when sitting in with new bands and having to play semi-familiar or pop tunes in guitar keys. Tell what key we're in and I can pretty well figure when we go to V7 or the iv and come up with something that makes the uninformed think I know what the heck I'm doing. Cheers! -D- www.radionoise.com <- Rock star by night www.burchinteractive.com <- Tech-nerd by day #;-) On Jan 3, 2008, at 11:54 AM, Bob Koester wrote: Alex, Wayne, and others, This has been a really good series of posts. Thanks. Let me throw out one thing that hasn't been mentioned (or at least not that I've seen) and that is the idea of chord/harmonic function particularly as it regards learning tunes and other music and improvisation. Along with tone, scales, and chord spelling, chord function within a piece is extremely important. For example, let's consider a A minor triad. In the context of a piece, is it a I harmony, a VI harmony, a II of V harmony, or a V of II harmony? Certainly it could be any or all of those things. Where that knowledge becomes helpful in improvisation is in being able to hear chordal/harmonic structure particularly in a unfamiliar, or somewhat familiar work. Suppose you've only had a chance to learn a particular tune in C. Knowing the names of the changes in C may not help you if you find you have to play the tune in Eb. Knowing how the chords function in the harmony and hearing that way can help. In short, while a A minor triad might be a VI chord in C, the VI chord function in the tune will be the VI chord function regardless of the key. Best, and belated Happy New Year to all, Bob Bob Koester, President MSI Financial Notice: This e-mail message and any attachment to this email message contain confidential information that my be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not review, retransmit, convert to hard copy, copy, use or disseminate this email or any attachments to it. If you have received this email in error, please immediately notify us by return email or by telephone at 913-341-7108 and delete this message. You may also notify us by surface mail to MSI Financial, 3965 West 83rd St. #114, Prairie Village, KS 66208. Forwarded messages, replies to prior messages, or all of this message or attachments may not have originated at this email address. This notice is automatically appended to all emails leaving this email address. > From: alexiles@earthlink.net > Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 11:21:21 -0800 > To: texastbone@gt.rr.com > CC: trombone-l@samford.edu; slideadams@cablespeed.com > Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Improv in daily routine > > Great book suggestion! > > Also [probably for more advanced students], I would recommend Hal > Crook's "How to Improvise". > > Another jazz musician/author who approach improv in a very practical, > artistic and creative way is Mark Levine. His book, "The Jazz Piano > Book" is a great read and has exercises which emphasize fundamentals > and creativity simultaneously. He will show a theoretical concept, > then show you how Herbie Hancock or Bill Evans might apply it. Eye/ > ear opening stuff for many students. As you read it, you feel like > you're just hanging out with the guy, talking music!! [and it is > great for non-pianists...like myself!]. > > Whatever books you use, always return to what you hear and getting > that out of your horn! > > Alex > ----------------- > On Jan 3, 2008, at 11:03 AM, Wayne Dyess wrote: > >> I didn't know about Hal Crook's book, Jeff. I had the great >> opportunity of hearing him live with Phil Woods at the New Orleans >> IAJE a number of years ago. What an ear-opening concert that was! >> >> I'm putting "Ready, Aim, Improvise" on my list of things I need to >> buy. >> >> Thanks, >> Wayne >> >> >> On Jan 3, 2008, at 12:33 PM, Jeff@SlideAdams.com wrote: >> >>> What a great discussion! >>> >>> Just one thing to add. >>> Hal Crook is a guru with this stuff and teaching his improv >>> methods at >>> Berklee--imagine, a bonist education sax, keyboard & guitarists on >>> improv--awesome!!! Check out his book "Ready, Aim, Improvise." It >>> has excellent plans to break down different aspects of improv so >>> that >>> you can focus here or there and see some actual improvement in your >>> vocabulary and ideas. He also has great practice-time timing >>> schedules to make the most use of limited practice time. >>> >>> Personally, prior to working with Hals methods I spent a ton of time >>> with Aebersold and with BIAB. >>> >>> Cheers! >>> >>> Jeff Adams >>> Jazz Chair, Jazz Ambassadors, DC >>> www.SlideAdams.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Trombone-l mailing list >> Trombone-l@samford.edu >> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 12:08:02 -0800 (PST) From: Rod Ellard Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Improv in daily routine To: "Jeff@SlideAdams.com" , trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: <834662.41428.qm@web32014.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I've been unable to decide between Ready Aim Improvise and How to Improvise, both by Hal Crook. Too many choices and not enough decisions. Maybe someone can help me decide between the two. Is RAI an update or revision of the H2I? If you could only have one... Rod Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 20:27:32 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] improv in practicing To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > One of my old improv students said, "But I really don't want to play > like Carl Fontana." > I said, "Two things! Yes you do; and don't worry, you won't." Great, Tom Thanks, DanP _________________________________________________________________ i?m is proud to present Cause Effect, a series about real people making a difference. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_Cause_Effect ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 12:46:01 -0800 From: emrose79@sonic.net Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Bonearama at the Sugar Bowl To: Trombone-L List Message-ID: <477D4989.1030007@sonic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed That is a sick and disgusting site!... believe me I know.. I searched the entire site at least twice looking for any trombone content! Maybe I missed it... I'll have to search it again......... Wayne Dyess wrote: > On Jan 2, 2008, at 9:34 PM, Walter Barrett wrote: > > >> Of course, SOME folks will have their self-control overrun by their >> prurient, lustful curiousity. >> >> >> >> That's just what I like about you, Wayne! >> > > > > I teach a computers & music course at school. Once, shortly after > the lab was wired for the internet... I was showing off some of my > favorite websites. Talked a bit about Trombone-L and the wonderful > friends I had made here... some of the other trombone related > sites... big band... computer this and that... and made the mistake > of typing in "bone.com" to show the class how easy it was to find > anything and everything you ever wanted to know about... > > well... you'll see. Those of you with the prurient, lustful > curiosity, that is. > > You'll see. > > (sly grin) > > > And by the way... Class was IMMEDIATELY dismissed, and I marched > into the boss's office to confess my sins. > > (true story) > > > --Wayne > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > > ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 21:02:29 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Improv in daily routine To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Along with tone, scales, and chord spelling, chord function within a piece is extremely important. For example, let's consider a A minor triad. In the context of a piece, is it a I harmony, a VI harmony, a II of V harmony, or a V of II harmony? Certainly it could be any or all of those things. Where that knowledge becomes helpful in improvisation is in being able to hear chordal/harmonic structure particularly in a unfamiliar, or somewhat familiar work. Suppose you've only had a chance to learn a particular tune in C. Knowing the names of the changes in C may not help you if you find you have to play the tune in Eb. Knowing how the chords function in the harmony and hearing that way can help. In short, while a A minor triad might be a VI chord in C, the VI chord function in the tune will be the VI chord function regardless of the key. This is exactly where I find that theory falls on its face. I was improvising, long before I learn theory. I did studio work, did a few live radio shows, did lots of demo work, even had a top-ten R&B hit. Yes theory is VERY important. But it's most important because it gives you a context for ear training. It's ear training that tells you where you can take a particular phrase. If I was charting a tune I'd be aware that it was a I, VI, II, V, for example. But I don't actually think about I, VI, II, V when I'm improvising, I'm just playing something that I think will sound good with the music. And when you start getting into whether the chord is from this key or that key, well, you just missed the point. You're not trying to play notes of a chord. You're playing musical phrases, phrases that have a similar flavor to the tune. The theory wakes your ears up to what's possible, but it's your ear that tells you what to play. That's why I start people on the basics. Start by playing the scale of the piece you're listening to. Alter that scale slightly, so that it wounds better. Now try an exercise, like a Hannon Piano exercise, in the key of the music you're listening to. Alter that exercise to make it sound better, when played with the music you're listening to. This stuff gets your ears working on what sounds good and what doesn't. When your ear gets better, you should be able to play the melody and other parts of the music you're listening to. Start simple, like with Kind of Blue or Sugar. Work up to West Side Story or Giant Steps. Boredom will set in many times along the way, where you're simply sick of that same old stuff you play. The boredom will drive you to catch up on your theory, ear training, scales and exercises. The boredom will drive you to try playing other things. But most importantly, improvisation is a learned skill. It's not just going to hit you some day, while you're working on technique. You need to practice it. Enjoy, DanP _________________________________________________________________ Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_122007 ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 21:11:39 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Bonearama at the Sugar Bowl To: Trombone-L List Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > That is a sick and disgusting site!... believe me I know.. I searched > the entire site at least twice looking for any trombone content! Maybe > I missed it... I'll have to search it again......... Yea, we all get off on being naughty and saying 'bone. Every once in a while it gets a bit too naughty. But don't worry. One year I wanted to get my wise-@$$ teenage daughter a lump of coal for Christmas. I searched high and low and the only coal I could find was some really, really expensive metallurgical-grade coal. I was way cheaper to buy her a real gift. And don't worry about your wise-@$$ teenage daughters either. They eventually straighten up. Mine wound up graduating from U.C. Berkeley and is now doing a double masters at Columbia. DanP _________________________________________________________________ The best games are on Xbox 360. Click here for a special offer on an Xbox 360 Console. http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/wheretobuy/ ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 13:46:09 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Mohwinkel Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Bonearama at the Sugar Bowl To: Trombone-L List Message-ID: <540234.42131.qm@web52308.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 But is there any hope for MY wise-@$$ teenage daughter? She plays trombone!! Regards, Mark Mohwinkel Daniel Pliskin wrote: "And don't worry about your wise-@$$ teenage daughters either. They eventually straighten up. Mine wound up graduating from U.C. Berkeley and is now doing a double masters at Columbia." --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 17:29:29 -0500 From: sabutin Subject: [Trombone-l] Sam Burtis at Birdland, NYC w/The Giants of Latin Jazz, Birdland, NYC 1/22-26 w/The Smithsonian Jazz Masterworks Orchestra, Egypt(!!!) 2/14-19 To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu, trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Hello all... If you are in the NYC area and you have never heard the classic NYC latin big band style played authentically in a live situation, you owe it to yourself to come down. This band has music from the original libraries of of the Tito Puente, Machito and Tito Rodriquez bands, and is comprised of about 18 musicians who all experienced the functional, day-to-day playing life of those bands when they were THE dance and social music of the latino audience in NYC. Burning!!! No other word will quite do. A few names should suffice for those who know what's up. Johnny Rodriquez Joe Madera Bobby Porcelli John Walsh Sonny Bravo Mitch Frohman Until recently...God rest his soul...Mario Rivera The trombone section? Reynaldo Jorg?, Louis Kahn and myself. Plus some surprise guests, no doubt. Under the belts of that trombone section alone I will bet that there are many thousands of nights of real, no holds barred NYC latin gigs. Hazardous duty pay kinds of gigs. You cannot...I repeat, you CANNOT...record a band like this accurately. The power lies in its rhythmic punch to the gut. That and the simultaneous realization that for all of that power, there is also a highly formal system at work in which the musicians reside with perfect comfort and no apparent excess effort. Listening to even the best recordings of it is like watching a film of Roberto Duran in action. You can get some idea or what's going on, but you have to be there...or better, climb into the ring with him...to appreciate what is really going on. Anyone who wants comps...I think I have enough pull at the club to get some. The Chico O'Farrill band has been there on Sunday nights for 12 years now...say 50 Sundays a year plus maybe 10 week-long engagements. That's going on 700 gigs. Add in the other 20 weeks or so that i have played there with other bands? Now we are talking about 840+ nights. That two years and 4 months of my life on that damned bandstand. I can getcha in, I think. Email me if you're interested. Sam ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 17:29:29 -0500 From: sabutin Subject: [Trombone-l] Sam Burtis at Birdland, NYC w/The Giants of Latin Jazz, Birdland, NYC 1/22-26 w/The Smithsonian Jazz Masterworks Orchestra, Egypt(!!!) 2/14-19 To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu, trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Hello all... If you are in the NYC area and you have never heard the classic NYC latin big band style played authentically in a live situation, you owe it to yourself to come down. This band has music from the original libraries of of the Tito Puente, Machito and Tito Rodriquez bands, and is comprised of about 18 musicians who all experienced the functional, day-to-day playing life of those bands when they were THE dance and social music of the latino audience in NYC. Burning!!! No other word will quite do. A few names should suffice for those who know what's up. Johnny Rodriquez Joe Madera Bobby Porcelli John Walsh Sonny Bravo Mitch Frohman Until recently...God rest his soul...Mario Rivera The trombone section? Reynaldo Jorg?, Louis Kahn and myself. Plus some surprise guests, no doubt. Under the belts of that trombone section alone I will bet that there are many thousands of nights of real, no holds barred NYC latin gigs. Hazardous duty pay kinds of gigs. You cannot...I repeat, you CANNOT...record a band like this accurately. The power lies in its rhythmic punch to the gut. That and the simultaneous realization that for all of that power, there is also a highly formal system at work in which the musicians reside with perfect comfort and no apparent excess effort. Listening to even the best recordings of it is like watching a film of Roberto Duran in action. You can get some idea or what's going on, but you have to be there...or better, climb into the ring with him...to appreciate what is really going on. Anyone who wants comps...I think I have enough pull at the club to get some. The Chico O'Farrill band has been there on Sunday nights for 12 years now...say 50 Sundays a year plus maybe 10 week-long engagements. That's going on 700 gigs. Add in the other 20 weeks or so that i have played there with other bands? Now we are talking about 840+ nights. That two years and 4 months of my life on that damned bandstand. I can getcha in, I think. Email me if you're interested. Sam ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 17:31:55 -0500 From: sabutin Subject: [Trombone-l] And...Sam Burtis w/The Smithsonian Jazz Masterworks Orchestra, Egypt(!!!) 2/14-19 To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu, trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Yup... The SJMO is going to Egypt to play Ellington music. Lovely. Who'd 'a thunk it. On a State Department-sponsored tour. Proof positive that the NeoCon age is just about over. Thanks be praised!!! Anyway...I don't suppose there are all that many trombonists on the list from the Cairo area, but still...Israel is a relatively short plane ride away, and Turkey, Greece, Italy, Macedonia, Croatia, etc....not so far away either. LOTS of brass traditions north of Greece. I have a round trip air ticket from the U.S. to Cairo. Anyone want an itinerant trombonist? Teacher, performer, clinician, etc? Any time during a week or less on either side of that trip? Have horn, will travel, and the airfare would be much less than if I was coming from the States, so's I can work for a reasonable fee. Email me. S. ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 17:31:55 -0500 From: sabutin Subject: [Trombone-l] And...Sam Burtis w/The Smithsonian Jazz Masterworks Orchestra, Egypt(!!!) 2/14-19 To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu, trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Yup... The SJMO is going to Egypt to play Ellington music. Lovely. Who'd 'a thunk it. On a State Department-sponsored tour. Proof positive that the NeoCon age is just about over. Thanks be praised!!! Anyway...I don't suppose there are all that many trombonists on the list from the Cairo area, but still...Israel is a relatively short plane ride away, and Turkey, Greece, Italy, Macedonia, Croatia, etc....not so far away either. LOTS of brass traditions north of Greece. I have a round trip air ticket from the U.S. to Cairo. Anyone want an itinerant trombonist? Teacher, performer, clinician, etc? Any time during a week or less on either side of that trip? Have horn, will travel, and the airfare would be much less than if I was coming from the States, so's I can work for a reasonable fee. Email me. S. ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 17:43:59 -0500 From: "Jeff@SlideAdams.com" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Improv in daily routine To: Rod Ellard Cc: trombone-L@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <569A77E7-3D5E-4355-8D98-73ED548848A9@cablespeed.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Rod, I would recommend RAI. It is like after using H2I with his students for 5 years, RAI was the revision, update and re-focus of H2I. Cheers! Jeff On Jan 3, 2008, at 3:08 PM, Rod Ellard wrote: > I've been unable to decide between Ready Aim Improvise and How to > Improvise, both by Hal Crook. Too many choices and not enough > decisions. > > Maybe someone can help me decide between the two. Is RAI an update > or revision of the H2I? If you could only have one... > > Rod > > > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! ------------------------------ Message: 21 Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 17:56:29 -0500 From: bjmchaffie@aol.com Subject: [Trombone-l] Fwd: Improv in daily routine To: trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: <8CA1C73033932B5-89C-1547@WEBMAIL-MB12.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > Along with tone, scales, and chord spelling, chord function within a piece is extremely important. For example, let's consider a A minor triad. In the context of a piece, is it a I harmony, a VI harmony, a II of V harmony, or a V of II harmony? Certainly it could be any or all of those things. Where that knowledge becomes helpful in improvisation is in being able to hear chordal/harmonic structure particularly in a unfamiliar, or somewhat familiar work. Suppose you've only had a chance to learn a particular tune in C. Knowing the names of the changes in C may not help you if you find you have to play the tune in Eb. Knowing how the chords function in the harmony and hearing that way can help. In short, while a A minor triad might be a VI chord in C, the VI chord function in the tune will be the VI chord function regardless of the key. I find that if I listen to Classical or near Classical (Gershwin) as background music a lot, improvisation literally jumps out of the brain. beldon wade This is exactly where I find that theory falls on its face. I was improvising, long before I learn theory. I did studio work, did a few live radio shows, did lots of demo work, even had a top-ten R&B hit. Yes theory is VERY important. But it's most important because it gives you a context for ear training. It's ear training that tells you where you can take a particular phrase. If I was charting a tune I'd be aware that it was a I, VI, II, V, for example. But I don't actually think about I, VI, II, V when I'm improvising, I'm just playing something that I think will sound good with the music. And when you start getting into whether the chord is from this key or that key, well, you just missed the point. You're not trying to play notes of a chord. You're playing musical phrases, phrases that have a similar flavor to the tune. The theory wakes your ears up to what's possible, but it's your ear that tells you what to play. That's why I start people on the basics. Start by playing the scale of the piece you're listening to. Alter that scale slightly, so that it wounds better. Now try an exercise, like a Hannon Piano exercise, in the key of the music you're listening to. Alter that exercise to make it sound better, when played with the music you're listening to. This stuff gets your ears working on what sounds good and what doesn't. When your ear gets better, you should be able to play the melody and other parts of the music you're listening to. Start simple, like with Kind of Blue or Sugar. Work up to West Side Story or Giant Steps. Boredom will set in many times along the way, where you're simply sick of that same old stuff you play. The boredom will drive you to catch up on your theory, ear training, scales and exercises. The boredom will drive you to try playing other things. But most importantly, improvisation is a learned skill. It's not just going to hit you some day, while you're working on technique. You need to practice it. Enjoy, DanP _________________________________________________________________ Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_122007 _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Pliskin To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Sent: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 4:02 pm Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Improv in daily routine > Along with tone, scales, and chord spelling, chord function within a piece is extremely important. For example, let's consider a A minor triad. In the context of a piece, is it a I harmony, a VI harmony, a II of V harmony, or a V of II harmony? Certainly it could be any or all of those things. Where that knowledge becomes helpful in improvisation is in being able to hear chordal/harmonic structure particularly in a unfamiliar, or somewhat familiar work. Suppose you've only had a chance to learn a particular tune in C. Knowing the names of the changes in C may not help you if you find you have to play the tune in Eb. Knowing how the chords function in the harmony and hearing that way can help. In short, while a A minor triad might be a VI chord in C, the VI chord function in the tune will be the VI chord function regardless of the key. This is exactly where I find that theory falls on its face. I was improvising, long before I learn theory. I did studio work, did a few live radio shows, did lots of demo work, even had a top-ten R&B hit. Yes theory is VERY important. But it's most important because it gives you a context for ear training. It's ear training that tells you where you can take a particular phrase. If I was charting a tune I'd be aware that it was a I, VI, II, V, for example. But I don't actually think about I, VI, II, V when I'm improvising, I'm just playing something that I think will sound good with the music. And when you start getting into whether the chord is from this key or that key, well, you just missed the point. You're not trying to play notes of a chord. You're playing musical phrases, phrases that have a similar flavor to the tune. The theory wakes your ears up to what's possible, but it's your ear that tells you what to play. That's why I start people on the basics. Start by playing the scale of the piece you're listening to. Alter that scale slightly, so that it wounds better. Now try an exercise, like a Hannon Piano exercise, in the key of the music you're listening to. Alter that exercise to make it sound better, when played with the music you're listening to. This stuff gets your ears working on what sounds good and what doesn't. When your ear gets better, you should be able to play the melody and other parts of the music you're listening to. Start simple, like with Kind of Blue or Sugar. Work up to West Side Story or Giant Steps. Boredom will set in many times along the way, where you're simply sick of that same old stuff you play. The boredom will drive you to catch up on your theory, ear training, scales and exercises. The boredom will drive you to try playing other things. But most importantly, improvisation is a learned skill. It's not just going to hit you some day, while you're working on technique. You need to practice it. Enjoy, DanP _________________________________________________________________ Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_122007 _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com ------------------------------ Message: 22 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 18:46:04 -0500 From: sabutin Subject: [Trombone-l] Sorry about the double posts. To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu, trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Cyber-idiot that i am. S. ------------------------------ Message: 23 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 18:46:04 -0500 From: sabutin Subject: [Trombone-l] Sorry about the double posts. To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu, trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Cyber-idiot that i am. S. ------------------------------ Message: 24 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 04:18:33 +0000 From: Oscar Utterstr?m Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Fwd: Improv in daily routine To: , Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" First of all thanks for all the great responses! I feel that my questions might have been a bit unclear to some of you. What I wanted to see with my initial post was how different people incorporate improvisation into their regular slur/tonguing/usual-keeping-your-chops-up routine rather than treating improv as a separate entity that's added onto the regular basic routine, i.e. I'll do it if I have time. I agree with both Jeff's and Alex's ideas on how to do this. Personally I try to start my day with something improvised a la Neumeister, JJ, Tim Hagans, Wycliffe etc. It can be, as Sam Burtis has talked about, a specific scale/tonality, a II - V, a tune or simply free. It can also be an improvised chorale (long tones/slurs incorporated!) or a combined etude (i.e. different articulations, tonguing etc). I feel this focuses my mind and puts me in a creative place of thought. It also makes the more "uncreative" exercises more like meditations. Therefore I'm curious to hear more about Alex's (almost) completely improvised routines. How do you divide your practice time? What bases do you cover? I know Hal Crook has a list of things he covers over the span of a year.....but that's Hal! Thanks again, Oscar Utterstr?m Nashville, TN _________________________________________________________________ M?rkt och kallt? Kanske Barcelona? http://search.live.com/results.aspx?q=Barcelona+reseguide&form=QBRE ------------------------------ Message: 25 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 11:06:56 +0100 From: "Dick Sleeman" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Sorry about the double posts. To: "Trombone-List" Message-ID: <006f01c84eb9$91dc7680$4901a8c0@dick> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Well, at least you're DOUBLE sorry, Sam! (Maybe you should put only ONE name in the "TO" line :-)) Cheers, Dick ------------------------------ Message: 26 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 11:10:10 +0100 From: "Dick Sleeman" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Berlioz, Beethoven To: "Trombone-List" Message-ID: <008d01c84eba$0b4983f0$4901a8c0@dick> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original To my question about the first trombone parts in Berlioz's "Harold en Italie" and Beethoven's "Fifth" I got some interesting answers, on- and off-list. Thanks! Howard Weiner wrote a.o.: > The original first trombone part of Beethoven's 5th is notated in > alto clef, which however does not mean that it was intended for alto > trombone. At the time Beethoven wrote the 5th, the alto trombone was > not known in Vienna and Beethoven himself had probably never seen one. And John Cather wrote a.o.: > Considering alto trombones were used in Europe for some 300+ years > prior to Beethoven, I'm not so sure nobody knew they existed. Albrechtsberger wrote a concert for alto trombone and orchestra as early as 1769. Beethoven moved to Vienna in 1792 and took lessons with Albrechtsberger, so it is very likely that he knew about the alto and how to write for it. Regards, Dick ------------------------------ Message: 27 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 12:05:38 +0100 From: Howard Weiner Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Berlioz, Beethoven To: "Dick Sleeman" , "Trombone-List" Message-ID: <0MKwpI-1JAkND1Mve-0004ID@mrelayeu.kundenserver.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:10 04.01.2008 +0100, Dick Sleeman wrote: >Albrechtsberger wrote a concert for alto trombone and orchestra as early as >1769. Beethoven moved to Vienna in 1792 and took lessons with >Albrechtsberger, so it is very likely that he knew about the alto >and how to write for it. How do you know that Albrechtsberger wrote his trombone concerto for alto trombone? The title on the manuscript reads "Concerto in B del Giorgio Albrechtsberger"; and the part in the score is labeled "Trombone conc[ertato]." The suffix "alto" was added by 20th-century editors who were misled by the alto clef of the solo part. In 1790 Albrechtsberger published a treatise on composition (Anweisung zur Composition) that also contains a short description of each instrument, including its range and notes that could be played on it. His "alto" trombone has as its lowest note the c below the staff in alto clef, which is a fourth lower than the lowest tone given for the E-flat alto in contemporary sources. He also specifies the e (a third above this c), which was however not available on the E-flat alto trombones of the time since they had short slides and consequently only six positions -- and this e would have been in seventh position, an impossibility. Thus it has to be concluded that Albrechtsberger's "alto" trombone was in B-flat, which agrees with other information concerning the "alto" trombone in Vienna at the turn of the 18th to the 19th century. (See my article for full information.) Howard -- Howard Weiner h.weiner@online.de http://howard-weiner.de/ Tosca jumped to a conclusion. ------------------------------ Message: 28 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 13:09:57 +0100 From: "Dick Sleeman" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Berlioz, Beethoven To: "Trombone-List" , "Howard Weiner" Message-ID: <003d01c84eca$cbbf95b0$4901a8c0@dick> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original My last post (!) was apparently sent prematurely, that is before I read Howard Weiner's post from yesterday. I wrote: > Albrechtsberger wrote a concert for alto trombone and orchestra as early as > 1769. Beethoven moved to Vienna in 1792 and took lessons with Albrechtsberger, > so it is very likely that he knew about the alto and how to write for it. Then Howard wrote a.o.: > How do you know that Albrechtsberger wrote his trombone concerto for alto > trombone? The title on the manuscript reads "Concerto in B del Giorgio > Albrechtsberger"; and the part in the score is labeled "Trombone > conc[ertato]." The suffix "alto" was added by 20th-century editors who were > misled by the alto clef of the solo part. I had my information from Robin Gregory, "The trombone, the instrument & its music" Londen, 1973. (Faber and Faber), p. 174. > In 1790 Albrechtsberger published a treatise on composition (Anweisung zur > Composition) that also contains a short description of each instrument, > including its range and notes that could be played on it. His "alto" trombone > has as its lowest note the c below the staff in alto clef, which is a fourth > lower than the lowest tone given for the E-flat alto in contemporary sources. > He also specifies the e (a third above this c), which was however not > available on the E-flat alto trombones of the time since they had short slides > and consequently only six positions -- and this e would have been in seventh > position, an impossibility. Thus it has to be concluded that Albrechtsberger's > "alto" trombone was in B-flat, which agrees with other information concerning > the "alto" trombone in Vienna at the turn of the 18th to the 19th century. > (See my article for full information.) I humbly stand corrected! Regards, Dick ------------------------------ Message: 29 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 12:40:04 -0000 From: "Keith Marr" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Berlioz, Beethoven To: "Trombone-List" Message-ID: <000b01c84ece$eeb30bc0$1b01a8c0@new70e71fdbcec> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Howard Weiner > > Thus it has to be concluded that Albrechtsberger's "alto" trombone was > in B-flat, which agrees with other information concerning the "alto" > trombone in Vienna at the turn of the 18th to the 19th century. > Backing up Howard's comments here there is an old saying we have in the UK "the proof of the pudding is in the eating" . . . If one attempts the concerto on a small tenor trombone (I used a 1916 Conn SLP [precursor of the 2H]) one immediately finds that, although having a high tessitura for a "tenor", the lips trills are more achievable and the piece sits nicely on the instrument. Playing the piece on an E flat trombone is certainly no easier and many of the ornaments require a trill valve which I am sure would not have been available to players in 1769. The only question for me is the choice of model of Bb trombone as the spikiness of the small bore sound needs to be avoided in Viennese playing. It is necessary to cultivate a soft warm sound. My 44H vocabell works very nicely. Maybe one of the German makes, with a bell krantz, would be worth a try? Cheers! Keith in Bb/F/D Bass Trombone: St Albans Symphony Orchestra and Page Three Big Band Soloist: Alto, Tenor and Bass Trombones ------------------------------ Message: 30 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 06:43:53 -0600 From: "Jim Hale" Subject: [Trombone-l] 2008 MMEA - Tan-Tar-A To: "Mailing List - Trombone-L" Message-ID: <004c01c84ecf$7789de60$0ab512ac@HALE.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Was just wondering if anyone else was going to be at Tan-Tar-A on Jan 23-25 for the 2008 MMEA Conference. :) I'd like to meet some/any of my fellow listers. Jim Hale The MIDI Trombone BBS - http://bbs.themiditrombone.net ------------------------------ Message: 31 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 08:06:21 -0500 From: sabutin Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Sorry about the double posts. To: trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Well, at least you're DOUBLE sorry, Sam! > >(Maybe you should put only ONE name in the "TO" line :-)) > >Cheers, > >Dick DUH!!! Thanks... Sam > >_______________________________________________ >Trombone-l mailing list >Trombone-l@samford.edu >http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 32 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 14:10:57 +0100 From: Howard Weiner Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Berlioz, Beethoven To: "Dick Sleeman" , "Trombone-List" Message-ID: <0MKwtQ-1JAmKT37cb-0006Qd@mrelayeu.kundenserver.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 13:09 04.01.2008 +0100, Dick Sleeman wrote: >I had my information from Robin Gregory, "The trombone, the >instrument & its music" Londen, 1973. (Faber and Faber), p. 174. Gregory's book is full of misinformation and is less than useless. If you want a good book about the trombone, get Trevor Herbert's "The Trombone" (Yale University Press, 2006) Howard -- Howard Weiner h.weiner@online.de http://howard-weiner.de/ Tosca jumped to a conclusion. ------------------------------ Message: 33 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 08:15:15 -0500 From: Walter Barrett Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Berlioz, Beethoven To: Trombone-List Message-ID: <2FE32AB4-7BE1-428C-A6D1-02AFC0F65AFD@optonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes On Jan 4, 2008, at 7:40 AM, Keith Marr wrote: > > The only question for me is the choice of model of Bb trombone as the > spikiness of the small bore sound needs to be avoided in Viennese > playing. > It is necessary to cultivate a soft warm sound. My 44H vocabell > works very > nicely. Maybe one of the German makes, with a bell krantz, would be > worth a > try? When I was in Vienna last year, I visited the house where Mozart lived, now a museum. In the exhibit on the Requiem, they had a tenor trombone typical of Vienna at the time. I had to sneak a picture, since they didn't allow photographs in the museum, but you can see it here... http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=476 Howard would know better than I if the bell flare/general design used slightly later in Beethoven's time was any different than the one in my photo. At any rate, unless the strings all change to gut strings, and the trumpets and horns use valveless instruments, I don't think we can be faulted too much for using either an alto or tenor. This is not to say that our modern performances shouldn't be informed by what the practice was in the composer's day. Anything that we can come up with , here in 2008, with regards to authentic sound of the late 1700's, is only at best, our educated guess. (Howard's guesses probably being more educated than most of ours...) Walter Barrett Violin- ?an instrument which tries to tickle human ears by the friction of a horse?s tail on the entrails of a cat.? -Ambrose Bierce Alto, tenor, bass trombones Bass trumpet, euphonium, tuba Yamaha Artist/Clinician http://www.walterbarrett.com ------------------------------ Message: 34 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 08:13:14 -0600 From: "Jeff Albert" Subject: [Trombone-l] historically informed performances was Berlioz, Beethoven To: "Walter Barrett" Cc: Trombone-List Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Jan 4, 2008 7:15 AM, Walter Barrett wrote: > > At any rate, unless the strings all change to gut strings, and the > trumpets and horns use valveless instruments, I don't think we can be > faulted too much for using either an alto or tenor. This is not to say > that our modern performances shouldn't be informed by what the > practice was in the composer's day. Anything that we can come up > with , here in 2008, with regards to authentic sound of the late > 1700's, is only at best, our educated guess. (Howard's guesses > probably being more educated than most of ours...) > I guess it is good to try to know the intent of composers, or performance practices of an era, but since we are performing for modern audiences, it is ok to offer modern performances. It is very easy to get caught up in the right or wrong way to do things musically, but I have a fairly simple rule that guides me in those decisions. The right way sounds good and the wrong way sounds bad. In terms of the original question about horn choices, it doesn't really matter what they did then, or even what Friedman or Alessi would do. What matters most if which option will sound the best from the specific individual in question. I could ramble more, but I'll stop. jeff -- www.jeffalbert.com www.scratchmybrain.com www.openearsmusic.org ------------------------------ Message: 35 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 15:15:22 +0100 From: Howard Weiner Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Berlioz, Beethoven To: Walter Barrett , Trombone-List Message-ID: <0ML2xA-1JAnKn0VhN-0000uB@mrelayeu.kundenserver.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ------------------------------ Message: 36 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 15:16:51 +0100 From: Howard Weiner Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Berlioz, Beethoven To: Walter Barrett , Trombone-List Message-ID: <0MKwh2-1JAnMC1ppa-0005wu@mrelayeu.kundenserver.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:15 04.01.2008 -0500, Walter Barrett wrote: >Howard would know better than I if the bell flare/general design used >slightly later in Beethoven's time was any different than the one in >my photo. The bell design probably wound't have been much different, since the function of the trombone hadn't really changed all that much. In Beethoven's time the trombone was still very much a church instrument in Vienna; its appearances in the opera and concert orchestras were still rather sporadic. The change in function and bell design probably occurred with the trombone's introduction into the military bands in the 1820s. As far as I can see, this is an area that has not yet been very well researched. >At any rate, unless the strings all change to gut strings, and the >trumpets and horns use valveless instruments, I don't think we can be >faulted too much for using either an alto or tenor. At least on this side of the Atlantic there are meanwhile quite a few period-instrument orchestras, orchestras in which the alto/tenor trombone question should be discussed -- whether or not that actually happens is another matter. When all is said and done, however, the most important thing is that the part is played correctly and with a beautiful sound, regardless of the instrument. > This is not to say >that our modern performances shouldn't be informed by what the >practice was in the composer's day. Anything that we can come up >with , here in 2008, with regards to authentic sound of the late >1700's, is only at best, our educated guess. No argument from me! Howard -- Howard Weiner h.weiner@online.de http://howard-weiner.de/ Tosca jumped to a conclusion. ------------------------------ Message: 37 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 14:46:00 GMT From: Nigel Horne Subject: [Trombone-l] [CORNWALL, United Kingdom] Callington Town Band Vacancy To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <200801041446.m04Ek08q015521@njh.bandsman.co.uk> Callington Town Band, Callington, CORNWALL, United Kingdom (Non contesting) has an immediate vacancy for a bass trombone player. Contact Ian Marshall at webmaster@callingtontownband.com or via their website http://www.callingtontownband.com. A friendly, non-contesting band who hold regular concerts and attend many local events in Cornwall. ------------------------------ Message: 38 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 16:29:52 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Berlioz, Beethoven To: Trombone-List Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > The bell design probably wound't have been much different, since the > function of the trombone hadn't really changed all that much. In > Beethoven's time the trombone was still very much a church instrument > in Vienna; its appearances in the opera and concert orchestras were > still rather sporadic. > > The change in function and bell design probably occurred with the > trombone's introduction into the military bands in the 1820s. As far > as I can see, this is an area that has not yet been very well researched. I've got a bell similar to that on the alto sackbut, that I made. I made it because it fits in a carry-on. And, as I should have expected, it sounds like it's designed to compete with a piccolo trumpet. What mouthpiece do people use on these things, to make them sound good or maybe just quieter? Inquiring minds... DanP _________________________________________________________________ Watch ?Cause Effect,? a show about real people making a real difference. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_watchcause ------------------------------ Message: 39 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 12:17:11 -0500 From: "John Burton" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Improv in daily routine To: Message-ID: <2C761FD6AEB2B640BF5524B1DD167C9D0A1B18@centralstorage.johnburton.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Perhaps I've missed it in the thread, and I'm not sure I'm even qualified to talk about improv... But here goes. In additon to all we've read about learning the scales, playing with chord structure etc etc, there's a very important part that it seems only Trombone players do. LISTEN ... LISTEN ... LISTEN That's right. Your slide may be in the correct position, you may be playing the correct partial and loud/soft enough.. But listen to the group around you and make sure that whatever you're playing blends musically. Few audiences appreciate a "Diminished ninth chord", but nearly all audiences will elbow their date (gently?) and say "DANG that sounds good .. Who's thay guy playing the 'trumbone'?" Naturally, your mileage may vary... ~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~= john burton Bach 50B3 Bass Trombone Kanawha Valley Community Band / Slide-by-Slide South Charleston, West Virginia -----Original Message----- From: trombone-l-bounces@samford.edu [mailto:trombone-l-bounces@samford.edu] On Behalf Of Daniel Pliskin Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 4:02 PM To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Improv in daily routine > Along with tone, scales, and chord spelling, chord function within a piece is extremely important. For example, let's consider a A minor triad. In the context of a piece, is it a I harmony, a VI harmony, a II of V harmony, or a V of II harmony? Certainly it could be any or all of those things. Where that knowledge becomes helpful in improvisation is in being able to hear chordal/harmonic structure particularly in a unfamiliar, or somewhat familiar work. Suppose you've only had a chance to learn a particular tune in C. Knowing the names of the changes in C may not help you if you find you have to play the tune in Eb. Knowing how the chords function in the harmony and hearing that way can help. In short, while a A minor triad might be a VI chord in C, the VI chord function in the tune will be the VI chord function regardless of the key. This is exactly where I find that theory falls on its face. I was improvising, long before I learn theory. I did studio work, did a few live radio shows, did lots of demo work, even had a top-ten R&B hit. Yes theory is VERY important. But it's most important because it gives you a context for ear training. It's ear training that tells you where you can take a particular phrase. If I was charting a tune I'd be aware that it was a I, VI, II, V, for example. But I don't actually think about I, VI, II, V when I'm improvising, I'm just playing something that I think will sound good with the music. And when you start getting into whether the chord is from this key or that key, well, you just missed the point. You're not trying to play notes of a chord. You're playing musical phrases, phrases that have a similar flavor to the tune. The theory wakes your ears up to what's possible, but it's your ear that tells you what to play. That's why I start people on the basics. Start by playing the scale of the piece you're listening to. Alter that scale slightly, so that it wounds better. Now try an exercise, like a Hannon Piano exercise, in the key of the music you're listening to. Alter that exercise to make it sound better, when played with the music you're listening to. This stuff gets your ears working on what sounds good and what doesn't. When your ear gets better, you should be able to play the melody and other parts of the music you're listening to. Start simple, like with Kind of Blue or Sugar. Work up to West Side Story or Giant Steps. Boredom will set in many times along the way, where you're simply sick of that same old stuff you play. The boredom will drive you to catch up on your theory, ear training, scales and exercises. The boredom will drive you to try playing other things. But most importantly, improvisation is a learned skill. It's not just going to hit you some day, while you're working on technique. You need to practice it. Enjoy, DanP _________________________________________________________________ Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_122007 _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 40 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 12:19:31 -0500 From: "John Burton" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Sorry about the double posts. To: Message-ID: <2C761FD6AEB2B640BF5524B1DD167C9D0A1B19@centralstorage.johnburton.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If that's as bad as it gets..... Jealous of the Ciaro trip.. Wish I could be there to hear you... ~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~= john burton Bach 50B3 Bass Trombone Kanawha Valley Community Band / Slide-by-Slide South Charleston, West Virginia -----Original Message----- From: trombone-l-bounces@samford.edu [mailto:trombone-l-bounces@samford.edu] On Behalf Of sabutin Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 6:46 PM To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu; trombone-l@samford.edu Subject: [Trombone-l] Sorry about the double posts. Cyber-idiot that i am. S. _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 41 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 09:27:15 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Izzo Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Berlioz, Beethoven To: Howard Weiner , Dick Sleeman , Trombone-List Message-ID: <507072.89464.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Howard, --- Howard Weiner wrote: > In 1790 Albrechtsberger published a treatise on > composition > (Anweisung zur Composition) that also contains a > short description of > each instrument, including its range and notes that > could be played > on it. His "alto" trombone has as its lowest note > the c below the > staff in alto clef, which is a fourth lower than the > lowest tone > given for the E-flat alto in contemporary sources. > He also specifies > the e (a third above this c), which was however not > available on the > E-flat alto trombones of the time since they had > short slides and > consequently only six positions -- and this e would > have been in > seventh position, an impossibility. Thus it has to > be concluded that > Albrechtsberger's "alto" trombone was in B-flat, > which agrees with > other information concerning the "alto" trombone in > Vienna at the > turn of the 18th to the 19th century. Let's not assume the 18th & 19th century Altos were in Eb. German Altos were common in F long before Eb, & didn't you tell us that the French had D Altos? Just adding fuel to the fire. :-) Tom > Howard > > > > > -- > Howard Weiner > h.weiner@online.de > http://howard-weiner.de/ > > Tosca jumped to a conclusion. > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > Tom Izzo Principal Trombonist, Bristol Renaissance Faire; Bass Trombonist, West Suburban Symphony Orchestra; Founding Director, The Naperville Area Trombone Ensemble; Alto/Tenor/Bass/Contrabass Trombones, Tubas, Euphonium, Bass Trumpet, Electric Bass, Timpani & Percussion. http://www.Geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/7875/ (630) 765-0154 ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ------------------------------ Message: 42 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 12:47:11 -0500 From: Ray Horton Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Berlioz, Beethoven To: Howard Weiner Cc: Trombone-List Message-ID: <477E711F.9050208@insightbb.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Howard Weiner wrote: > At 13:09 04.01.2008 +0100, Dick Sleeman wrote: > > >> I had my information from Robin Gregory, "The trombone, the >> instrument & its music" Londen, 1973. (Faber and Faber), p. 174. >> > > Gregory's book is full of misinformation and is less than useless. If > you want a good book about the trombone, get Trevor Herbert's "The > Trombone" (Yale University Press, 2006) > > Howard > > > -- > Howard Weiner > h.weiner@online.de > http://howard-weiner.de/ > > Howard, you are my hero! Even when the book backs you up, you can still trash it! "Never give up, never surrender!" (_Galaxy Quest_) I would have wimped out and said "Even though Gregory is correct in this case ..." Seriously, thanks again for sharing your tremendously helpful scholarship with us. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist Louisville Orchestra ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l End of Trombone-l Digest, Vol 36, Issue 4 *****************************************