Subject: Trombone-l Digest, Vol 26, Issue 10 Date: Saturday, March 10, 2007 12:00 PM From: trombone-l-request@maillists.samford.edu Reply-To: trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu To: Conversation: Trombone-l Digest, Vol 26, Issue 10 Send Trombone-l mailing list submissions to trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to trombone-l-request@maillists.samford.edu You can reach the person managing the list at trombone-l-owner@maillists.samford.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Trombone-l digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Intonation (james meador) 2. Re: Intonation (Jeff Albert) 3. Re: Intonation (Barry Green) 4. Re: Intonation (Or...I think not, therefore I am.) (Douglas Ward) 5. Re: Intonation (clayton murphy) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:13:46 +0000 From: "james meador" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Intonation To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The only time I ever use a tuner in public is to check exactly where the oboe player is putting the A. I'm keeping him 'honest' I guess. I once caught him tuning the orchestra without using a tuner, so I had to start checking him. I don't check him all the time, just when pitch is shaky. Most of the time he does use a tuner, so he is okay. 95% of the time he is dead on, even after we have been rehearsing. It is funny though, he will lock it in dead center, then when other people start to play the pitch goes up. So we tune to 442, then play at 443. It is very strange. When the oboe player is off, watch out. It is also interesting to hear what happens when his timbre is slightly different. People have a harder time locking in to the pitch depending on what his sound is doing. At home I check occasionally with a tuner, but I play a LOT with tuning CDs and drone pitches. I used to play with recordings, but I found once my ear got much better with the tuning CDs many of the recordings I was using had pitch discrepencies that I could not hear before. Some are great, but others are not. I think using a tuner wisely and occasionally can be helpful, using one too much can be detrimental. I often find the people who have tuners on their stands the most are the people with the worst intonation. James ====================== James N. Meador, Bass Trombone Orquesta Sinf—nica de Yucat‡n +52-999-221-5845 cell +52-999-195-1144 home jamesmeador@hotmail.com From: ALEX ILES To: sabutin Cc: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Intonation (Or...I think not, therefore I am.) Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2007 11:57 PM 2. Tuners used in a public setting tend to start more arguments than they settle. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 18:32:48 -0600 From: "Jeff Albert" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Intonation To: "james meador" Cc: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 3/9/07, james meador wrote: > > snip... I'm keeping him 'honest' I guess. I once > caught him tuning the orchestra without using a tuner, so I had to start > checking him. snip So we tune to 442, then play at 443. It is very strange. Is it really that big a deal if the group is 3 cents higher than the arbitrary pitch? As long as everyone is in tune with each other... BTW I got an accompaniment CD for the David, and it states the tuning note is A=442, not that that means anything. Jeff -- www.jeffalbert.com www.scratchmybrain.com www.pepperenterprises.com ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 19:39:27 -0600 From: "Barry Green" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Intonation To: Message-ID: <200703100139.l2A1dbMW000529@server5.samford.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" I recently bought 2 new Edwards, a jazz tenor and dependant bass trombone. I also (after making a living for the past 25 years without one) bought a tuner, just to help get my bearings on the new gear. I have gotten it out a couple of times in the studio but I did it quickly and put it away. I'm not the strongest bass bone player and need help. Being in tune with a tuner doesn't necessarily have much to do with being in tune on the session or gig. Also to my ear a lot of strings tend to play on the high side, (at least that's what we brass types think.) Did I say that? I'll deny it if asked! Barry Green -----Original Message----- From: trombone-l-bounces@maillists.samford.edu [mailto:trombone-l-bounces@maillists.samford.edu] On Behalf Of james meador Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 6:14 PM To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Intonation The only time I ever use a tuner in public is to check exactly where the oboe player is putting the A. I'm keeping him 'honest' I guess. I once caught him tuning the orchestra without using a tuner, so I had to start checking him. I don't check him all the time, just when pitch is shaky. Most of the time he does use a tuner, so he is okay. 95% of the time he is dead on, even after we have been rehearsing. It is funny though, he will lock it in dead center, then when other people start to play the pitch goes up. So we tune to 442, then play at 443. It is very strange. When the oboe player is off, watch out. It is also interesting to hear what happens when his timbre is slightly different. People have a harder time locking in to the pitch depending on what his sound is doing. At home I check occasionally with a tuner, but I play a LOT with tuning CDs and drone pitches. I used to play with recordings, but I found once my ear got much better with the tuning CDs many of the recordings I was using had pitch discrepencies that I could not hear before. Some are great, but others are not. I think using a tuner wisely and occasionally can be helpful, using one too much can be detrimental. I often find the people who have tuners on their stands the most are the people with the worst intonation. James ====================== James N. Meador, Bass Trombone Orquesta Sinfsnica de Yucatan +52-999-221-5845 cell +52-999-195-1144 home jamesmeador@hotmail.com From: ALEX ILES To: sabutin Cc: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Intonation (Or...I think not, therefore I am.) Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2007 11:57 PM 2. Tuners used in a public setting tend to start more arguments than they settle. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.8/714 - Release Date: 3/8/2007 10:58 AM -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.8/714 - Release Date: 3/8/2007 10:58 AM ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 06:17:17 -0500 From: Douglas Ward Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Intonation (Or...I think not, therefore I am.) To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <85DB4B29-0014-4D26-A396-89952492BB6D@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Mar 9, 2007, at 10:28 AM, Steve Gamble wrote: > Now about tuners: I've posted something like this before but maybe > this > is a good time to do it again. The bad rap on tuners comes from not > using them correctly. Basically, the only good way to use a tuner > is to > never adjust to it!! Instead, once you see that the tuner is telling > you that your concept of a particular pitch is incorrect, change your > concept. Now play your new concept, then look at the tuner; again, if > it doesn't match, don't adjust. Keep tweaking your concept until the > tuner tells you that what you are already thinking is in tune with the > tuner. That way you are practicing playing in tune in a way that is > much more compatible with real-life music making with other real-life > imperfect musicians who often play in between the little notches on > your > tuner. I can only add that: * there is no substitute for ear training (my best theory classes taught theory at the piano rather than the desk) * when teaching, introduce sound first, and just intonation numbers (and tuners) second * there is no substitute for ensemble experience! The tuners and theory serve to help you find your way when you're too far off to know which is home. (I get my students to use a piano or pitch CD before I recommend a tuner. A tuner and recording machine can both tell you if you hear/feel intonation sharp, flat, or correctly.) Above all, JUST MAKE IT SOUND GREAT (stable) for your target audience/ situation before looking to see if you're correct on paper! Playing with a drone or keyboard is extremely helpful in training you to feel good intonation, but nothing replaces the random intonation, varied dynamics, and heterogeneous tone of an ensemble for which you must learn to adjust with the speed of an unconscious reflex. Listening will tell you if you need to use the Grave Minor Seventh or Harmonic Minor Seventh adjustment, or if equal temperament (or some other temperament) sounds best for the gig (audition, competition, et cetera). (Remember, no matter what theory says, playing two notes in a row by yourself, and raising the second note 18 cents because its function changes will sound funky in prelims to the string player on the audition committee even if the adjustment would have sounded great in the finals with the section.) ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 09:11:50 -0600 From: "clayton murphy" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Intonation To: jamesmeador@hotmail.com, trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed "I think using a tuner wisely and occasionally can be helpful, using one too much can be detrimental. I often find the people who have tuners on their stands the most are the people with the worst intonation." I really like this line! I suspect the truth in it is due to those with tuners on their stands the most are using their eyes to tune their instruments rather than their ears. Murph _________________________________________________________________ Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more·.then map the best route! http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag1&FORM=MGAC01 ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l End of Trombone-l Digest, Vol 26, Issue 10 ******************************************