Subject: Trombone-l Digest, Vol 26, Issue 9 Date: Friday, March 9, 2007 12:00 PM From: trombone-l-request@maillists.samford.edu Reply-To: trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu To: Conversation: Trombone-l Digest, Vol 26, Issue 9 Send Trombone-l mailing list submissions to trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to trombone-l-request@maillists.samford.edu You can reach the person managing the list at trombone-l-owner@maillists.samford.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Trombone-l digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: French solos, test pieces? (Charles De Paolo) 2. Almost Shameless Self Promotion (richard.bartkus@cox.net) 3. Re: FW: How to learn about F attachment (Jason Smith) 4. Re: How to learn about F attachment (Adrian Drover) 5. Re: Intonation (Or...I think not, therefore I am.) (Gabriel Langfur) 6. Re: Almost Shameless Self Promotion (Chris Tune) 7. Re: Intonation (Chris Tune) 8. Re: Intonation (Stephen Troy) 9. Re: How to learn about F attachment (Robert Slade) 10. Re: Intonation (Or...I think not, therefore I am.) (ALEX ILES) 11. Re: (WAS) How to learn about F attachment (emrose79) 12. List of the world's billionaires (Bill Dinwiddie) 13. Re: List of the world's billionaires (Price Taylor) 14. Re: How to learn about F attachment (Wayne Dyess) 15. Re: How to learn about F attachment (thetubameister@adelphia.net) 16. Re: French solos, test pieces? (Mark Thompson) 17. Trombone Day LA (ALEX ILES) 18. Re: How to learn about F attachment (Adrian Drover) 19. Re: (WAS) How to learn about F attachment (Adrian Drover) 20. wanted to buy: slide trumpet (George Butler) 21. How to learn about F attachment (George Butler) 22. Dave Taylor/Sam Burtis masterclass-Chicago May 19? Exploring possibilities. (sabutin) 23. Re: How to learn about F attachment (Raymond Horton) 24. Re: Intonation (Or...I think not, therefore I am.) (Steve Gamble) 25. Fiesta Del Pacifico (Josh Kane) 26. Re: Intonation (Keith Marr) 27. Re: (WAS) How to learn about F attachment (Keith Marr) 28. Re: How to learn about F attachment (Wayne Dyess) 29. Re: How to learn about F attachment (Wayne Dyess) 30. recording request (Jason Smith) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 13:11:01 -0500 From: "Charles De Paolo" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] French solos, test pieces? To: Message-ID: <099401c761ad$2119e490$1e00a8c0@Road1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Tom, That's a good question. As far a I know, that contest no longer runs. At least, I don't see a new publication each year from Alphonse Leduc or some other major French house with "Paris Conservatory Composition Prize" emblazoned across the front cover. If the contest is defunct, that would be too bad. It produced a tremendous amount of excellent literature. --Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas Ervin To: Trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 5:32 PM Subject: [Trombone-l] French solos, test pieces? Most of us older players know (very well) some of the MANY French solos for trombone and piano, almost all published by Leduc, which were composed almost annually as test pieces for the Paris Conservatoire (and sometimes other conservatories). And there is the very good book, FRENCH MUSIC FOR LOW BRASS INSTRUMENTS, by Jeff Lemke and Mark Thompson (1994, Indiana University Press). Do any listers know, is that stream of solos still coming, still happening, still being composed? Published? Tom Ervin, Professor of Music University of Arizona (Music 133) (alt: with street address) PO Box 210004 MUSIC, Univ Arizona Tucson AZ 85721 1017 North Olive Road Tucson AZ 85719-0506 520/621-7021 (website) _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 13:25:26 -0500 From: Subject: [Trombone-l] Almost Shameless Self Promotion To: Trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <21605364.1173378326296.JavaMail.root@fed1wml07.mgt.cox.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On July 17th I will be performing at the Lincoln Center on that Tues night for the "Midsummer's Night Swing" series. Not exactly certain of my travel dates yet, but I would like to go to some decent jazz clubs if I have the free time. Any suggestions? Rick Bartkus WWW.RICHARDBARTKUS.COM ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 11:33:37 -0800 (PST) From: Jason Smith Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] FW: How to learn about F attachment To: Eric Edwards , bone list Message-ID: <503465.85031.qm@web35011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Not thanks to me I just found the .com part somebody else posted link. Let's give proper credit where due it is a real cool site. Jason --- Eric Edwards wrote: > Thanks Jason! > > Cool site. > > Eric > > > Eric, Leandra, Sara, Jared & Lily > Edwards > "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after > the sweetness of low > price has faded" Jason Smith www.thebandroomtx.com www.concerttimeusa.com www.pershingparkbaptist.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 19:44:23 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: "'sabutin'" , Message-ID: <001b01c761ba$2d693770$0400a8c0@Adrian> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > From: sabutin > > And, as you say...it plays marginally freer than the F trigger > because it is marginally shorter. Ah but, it isn't really shorter, Sam. F is 1st pos in F and 2nd pos in Gb, so the total tube length is the same in either case. I'm guessing my Gb slide sounds freer because it doesn't have so many tight air-restricting turns as does the F. Altho' I still love to play my old horn and have no pressing plans to upgrade it, the path of the F slide doesn't win any design awards on the TR181. A. ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 13:24:46 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Intonation (Or...I think not, therefore I am.) To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Message-ID: <989151.61070.qm@web31810.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii This is great stuff. When I started college I really barely knew what a trombone should sound like, much less what in tune or in time sounded like. I spent most of my early lessons with Per Brevig (I was very lucky...) playing Rochut in octaves with him, and he would simply stop and wait for me to find him on the notes that were farthest out of tune. What a generous man - he really didn't need to be wasting chops on a naive freshman like me. In the next couple of years of college I played in a trombone quartet, which we took VERY seriously. We rehearsed all the time, and we recorded most of it, constantly going into listening rooms in the library to listen back, and then going back to try it again. The other 3 guys INSISTED that I stop fishing for pitch, so that they could make adjustments to something that wasn't moving. Together, we learned how to play beautifully in tune by always listening for balance and blend, and then listening back to make sure we weren't fooling ourselves in any way. And when we weren't rehearsing, we were often listening to the world's great vocal ensembles to hear how they did it. I tell students to hear the pitch, and then put their slide in what they think is the right place, and then DON'T MOVE unless they have very clearly determined that their pitch is off. That way, they have a much better chance of putting it in the RIGHT place right away the next time. Mike Roylance, the tuba player in the Boston Symphony, has incredible pitch - or, I should say, an amazing balance of clear pitch center and breadth of sound, which is one of the big things I'm hoping for in a tuba player. He tells me he's never owned a tuner, but he practices A LOT with reference drone pitches - a more organic way of being very strict with yourself about pitch, I tend to think. Tuners can very easily get even excellent players into strange head games. Just some more thoughts... Gabe ----- Original Message ---- From: sabutin To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2007 12:00:48 PM Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Intonation (Or...I think not, therefore I am.) Alex wrote: >First, I believe you learn how to play in tune by recognizing what "in >tune" actually sounds like. OOOOoooo!!! There it is!!! Tuners, metronomes, synthesizers, multitracking...all the paraphernalia of modern music production and academia...are just substitutes for real knowledge and experience. Artificial flavors that DO NOT GET YOU THERE. Useful in a pinch, but non-nourishing. Relatively ineffective substitutes for experience, attention and listening. We all have to make a decision. Are we simply producing music or are we trying to become deeper artists and craftsmen? If we are simply producing music, then sure. Use a tuner to tell you what is mathematically correct. In fact...use a pitch regulator that AUTOMATICALLY tunes up every note. This is very common in the commercial recording of bad singers. Sure. Practice with a metronome 100% of the time. You'll be SO rhythmically perfect that you won't be able to phrase. Sure...make sure that every rhythm you play is perfectly notatable in Western European notation. It'll make it SO much easier for future generations of academics to transcribe your playing. Although they won't really have to do that because by then there will be computer programs that will do the transcribing FOR them. With directions on them that say "DO NOT use this program to transcribe outlaw musicians like Louis Armstrong and Charlie Parker, because your computer will self-destruct trying to shoehorn their rhythms and notes into its mathematical parameters." >Listen to groups and players that do play >in tune together. Get that sound in your head. Yup. Magic words in that phrase? Listen Sound and Head (Might as well add Body and Soul to that list. In the key of Db. Also Better Git It In Your Soul. In the key of Mingus.) >---snip--- [Jeff Reynolds also provides his >students the simple sage advice..."If you want to get better, you have >to play with players who play better than you."!] Yup. "Good intonation", like musicality of every sort, can only be acquired by personal exposure to it at the highest levels you can reach. You know how a magnetized piece of iron can be used to magnetize another piece that is not yet magnetized? By rubbing the two together? Yup. Like that. Bet on it. One rehearsal playing with someone like Bobby Rodriguez (The man who really invented modern Latin bass playing.) is worth 100 years of metronomes. LIVING time, on a level that I cannot even BEGIN to describe. One successful unison with someone like Jim Knepper or Thad Jones will teach you more about sound, pitch and time than all the tuners ever built. IF you have the ears to hear. As we all do, pretty much. If we didn't, we wouldn't be on this list in the first place because we would have been banned from Middle School band at 12 years of age. But in order to hear...YOU HAVE TO LISTEN. And tuners do not teach you how to listen. They teach you how to think. You know that old line..."He's so dumb he can't walk and chew gum at the same time?" Well I'm here to tell you that we are ALL "too dumb" to think and make music at the same time. You can shift back and forth from one mode to the other...we all have to do that as performers, if only to figure out where that damned coda sign is or whether we are coming up to the bridge of a tune or not, etc...but "think" and "play"? I think not. > You eventually start >the lifelong journey of discovering the "feel" of what "in tune" can >be. "Feel". NOT "think". Too many variables to "think" about pitch. I mean...if you know that the oboe player is generally sharp (Aren't they all?) you can get a head start on that upcoming passage in octaves, but...HOW sharp? You can only react. And reaction is slowed by thought. Or...here you are improvising at a really fast tempo. Say MM=220. There is a G7(#9 b13) in the last two beats of a bar. By the time you "think" that name...you're already past the chord. UH oh!!! What NOW!!!??? You have to hear it. Perhaps abstract it as part of a longer harmonic sequence or tonality. But "think"? Once again...I think not. > You learn how to adjust to your surroundings and what if feels like >to have someone adjust to you. The more clear and vivid this mental >picture [based on actual sensory experience, rather than just theory], >the better chance you have of learning to play more in tune on any >given day. Perfect. > >Tuners can help--to a point, in my experience. Good for learning how >you hear intervals and how you play to a fixed pitch [like A=440]. But >they too only provide a one dimensional answer to a three dimensional >question. Only one part of the whole picture. Is there such a thing as "more" perfect? > >The players I observe who rigidly adhere to too many theoretical >concepts... [to borrow from Eastern philosophy]... "confuse the map for >the journey". Yup. And they get lost a lot, too. Sir Lostalot and his trusty squires, Tuna and 'Nome > >I agree with Noreen [hi Noreen!!] and highly recommend Chris Leuba's >book. Very well written and well thought out. But use with >caution!!...Like any book, it provides only ONE part of the big >picture. Once you play a note, your senses [particularly hearing!] are >the final source for how to adjust a note up or down. > >Best wishes, > >LX Alex... YESSSSS!!!! Words from a real pro. If I didn't already know how well you play, this little missive would be all I needed to hear. Thank you. See ya somewhere... (Maybe in LA during the time the Mingus Epitaph thing is there?) Wherever. Later... Sam _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 13:58:04 -0800 From: "Chris Tune" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Almost Shameless Self Promotion To: , Message-ID: <02f501c761cc$da0c4b90$0200a8c0@athlon2800> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Is this your band? Does the band have a name? Sometimes that is the way it shows on the playbill, when you go to get tickets. Just trying to be helpful for our friends in NYC to get their fill of decent Swing Era music. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 10:25 AM Subject: [Trombone-l] Almost Shameless Self Promotion > On July 17th I will be performing at the Lincoln Center on that Tues night > for the "Midsummer's Night Swing" series. > > Not exactly certain of my travel dates yet, but I would like to go to some > decent jazz clubs if I have the free time. > > Any suggestions? > > Rick Bartkus > WWW.RICHARDBARTKUS.COM > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 14:04:25 -0800 From: "Chris Tune" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Intonation To: "ALEX ILES" , "trombone-list Trombone'" , "Noreen Harris-Baer" Message-ID: <02fb01c761cd$bcbdbe10$0200a8c0@athlon2800> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Beautiful stuff. I'm printing this and putting it with some of my other teaching and self-teaching materials. Do you have an opinion with regard to the presence of acoustic piano? I've often thought how odd it is to tune to "flexing" instruments like the oboe, if, as sometimes is the case, we have a "featured" role for piano or organ (imagine a small orchestra at a church). I'd tend to want to hear the piano's pitch and the organ's pitch since these instruments will not be able to physically retune (although pitch will change with temperature). Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "ALEX ILES" To: "trombone-list Trombone'" ; "Noreen Harris-Baer" Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 8:02 AM Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Intonation > Hi all, > > What I am writing here is not meant as a flame against any of the > excellent and useful ideas outlined so far. I am just a little > concerned with how some of this information gets used. > > I think some people confuse concepts like those described by Mr. Leuba > with what good intonation actually sounds like. I have seen a few too > many players substitute some good theories and concepts for the > information their ears provide. I am afraid, many well-intentioned > players are looking for a tangible, quick solution for themselves [OR > their students]. I have seen trombone parts where every note in a > chorale has little arrows above every note indicating which way to > adjust that note! Are they listening or are they thinking about > intonation? > > Theory [even good theory] is not a total substitute for good listening. > There is a lot more to playing something in tune than just adjusting > according to the note's theoretical function in a chord. That is just > one variable. It helps to know the function of the note in a chord, > but knowing that will not make you "right" when you play the note a > little sharper or flatter. Where is the chord going? How is it voiced? > What is the dynamic? How is the section balanced dynamically? What kind > of timbre are you going for as a group? These things [and many more] > all affect a player's intonation choices too. > > The acoustics of the instrument also affect pitch [and that even varies > from instrument to instrument, player to player]. Temperature affects > pitch [sometimes differently for different partials]. And different > instruments respond differently to temperature...when it's warm, brass > tend to become sharp, strings tend to go flat. Both have to adjust > differently. > > How a group tunes up also affects pitch. You can have the best laid > plan for how you are going to lower and raise certain notes, but that > plan will be shattered by a really hot stage and an oboist with a bad > reed that lays out an A a couple cents higher than yesterday. > > This is all too much too think about on the fly!! > > What to do!? > > First, I believe you learn how to play in tune by recognizing what "in > tune" actually sounds like. Listen to groups and players that do play > in tune together. Get that sound in your head. Then you have to find > and try to play with players who play in tune. That might be a private > teacher or just a really good player. [Jeff Reynolds also provides his > students the simple sage advice..."If you want to get better, you have > to play with players who play better than you."!] You eventually start > the lifelong journey of discovering the "feel" of what "in tune" can > be. You learn how to adjust to your surroundings and what if feels like > to have someone adjust to you. The more clear and vivid this mental > picture [based on actual sensory experience, rather than just theory], > the better chance you have of learning to play more in tune on any > given day. > > Tuners can help--to a point, in my experience. Good for learning how > you hear intervals and how you play to a fixed pitch [like A=440]. But > they too only provide a one dimensional answer to a three dimensional > question. Only one part of the whole picture. > > The players I observe who rigidly adhere to too many theoretical > concepts... [to borrow from Eastern philosophy]... "confuse the map for > the journey". > > I agree with Noreen [hi Noreen!!] and highly recommend Chris Leuba's > book. Very well written and well thought out. But use with > caution!!...Like any book, it provides only ONE part of the big > picture. Once you play a note, your senses [particularly hearing!] are > the final source for how to adjust a note up or down. > > Best wishes, > > LX > > > > On Mar 8, 2007, at 4:55 AM, Noreen Harris-Baer wrote: > >> When I was a student of Jeff Reynolds, he was all >> about the exact concept you are writing about. He >> recommended a good book to me by Chris Leuba (formerly >> of the Chicago Symphony) called "A Study In Musical >> Intonation". I saw it for sale on Cherry Classics: >> >> https://www.cherry-classics.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/CCMusic.woa/wa/ >> brassSheetMusic >> >> Noreen Baer >> >> --- Keith Marr wrote: >> >>> As the F attachment thread has migrated onto the >>> subject of tuning I would like to elaborate on >>> what's already been said. >>> >>> Intonation is not just a case of knowing the slide >>> position to be in tune with your colleagues, i.e. >>> the position you use on the slide will not always be >>> the same for the same note. >>> >>> Take for example, as I've noticed, the brass >>> ensemble at the end of the first movement of >>> Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony which I am playing for >>> Saturday (for those without the music that's the bit >>> where the strings start playing a pizzicato downward >>> scale, quavers on the beat): >>> >>> The 3rd trombone at bars 336-337 is the same as at >>> 338-339, a bar of Es (third space bass clef) to the >>> F# above it. I have to play the second F# slightly >>> sharper than the first because of the change in the >>> first trombone and trumpet part. They come down from >>> an E (top line tenor clef) to the D first time and D >>> to D# the second time. The second trombone goes from >>> G (second space tenor clef) to B both times and I >>> would be interested to ask the second player (we've >>> not yet met) if they experience anything similar. >>> >>> The section's done a little intonation practice from >>> time to time and we find that the third of the chord >>> has to be sharper rising to it than lowering to it >>> (hope I've expressed that intelligibly). If you have >>> a section you play with regularly try playing triads >>> and going from major to minor and back again. Take >>> it in turns to play the third of the chord and play >>> the first and second inversions as well. You will >>> notice a small but significant difference in the >>> position on the slide that you use for the new note >>> each time. >>> >>> I remember seeing some intonation studies for >>> trombone sections (+tuba) and using them on one >>> occasion but I sadly can't remember who they were >>> produced and published by or I would buy them. >>> >>> So playing in tune is probably the toughest thing we >>> have to do in orchestra playing, especially as even >>> the quietest entry is so noticeable when you playing >>> with strings and woodwinds. >>> >>> twopence worth >>> >>> Cheers! >>> >>> Keith in Bb/F/D >>> Bass Trombone >>> St Albans Symphony Orchestra >>> North Herts Big Band >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Trombone-l mailing list >>> Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >>> >> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l >>> >> >> >> Dr. Noreen Harris Baer >> Baer Tracks Music >> H-(845)510-4127 >> C-(845)558-6342 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> _____________ >> No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go >> with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. >> http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail >> _______________________________________________ >> Trombone-l mailing list >> Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l >> > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 17:06:24 -0500 From: Stephen Troy Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Intonation To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20070308170624.009f23f0@pop.erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:04 PM 03/08/2007 -0800, Chris Tune wrote: >I've often thought how odd it is to tune to "flexing" instruments like the >oboe, if, as sometimes is the case, we have a "featured" role for piano or >organ (imagine a small orchestra at a church). > >I'd tend to want to hear the piano's pitch and the organ's pitch since these >instruments will not be able to physically retune (although pitch will >change with temperature). > >Chris Any group I've ever played in always tunes to the keyboard when the keyboard is the featured instrument. I've also never seen a professional orchestra do otherwise. Steve Troy ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 14:15:43 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Slade Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: Wayne Dyess , Howard Spindel Cc: Trombone-L List Message-ID: <20070308221543.44131.qmail@web53506.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 I think this topic got started asking about books to help with the valve. Has anyone mentioned the "36 Studies for Trombone with F Attachment" by Blume? I got my start with that book in high school and would recommend it. Robert Slade --- Wayne Dyess wrote: > > On Mar 7, 2007, at 5:58 PM, Howard Spindel wrote: > > > I tune to the C in first. As Gabe says, it gets > you a usable low > > C. I also think it's easier to hit the low F in > 6th solidly, and > > since I primarily play first or second bone parts > I rarely see low > > F's anyway. > > > > Howard > > > I concede that a lot of guys tune to the C. But I > don't buy the > implication that if you tune to F that the C isn't > usable. > > In fact, tune to the C and it's the F that you can't > use (too flat). > > What am I missing? > > > But I do go by the old saying: different strokes > for different folks. > > I've just been tuning to the F for WAY too many > years to go changing > now. > Or even TRYING a change. > > No thanks. You guys are just trying to screw me up. > I'm on to ya. > > :-) > > (kidding) > > Wayne > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > ____________________________________________________________________________________ TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 15:57:24 -0800 From: ALEX ILES Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Intonation (Or...I think not, therefore I am.) To: sabutin Cc: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Hi again, I do find the tuner useful to occasionally spot check my own pitch tendencies, particularly when I am having what I consider a "bad ear day".... Here is a version of THAT scenario: I get home [frustrated!!], pull out horn, turn on tuner [which rarely leaves my practice studio, btw], look away from tuner, play a note, look over at tuner...."Ohh...I guess my [insert dubious note here] really WAS pretty sharp at that rehearsal earlier today!!" Turn tuner off. Sulk...then practice!! For the most part, however,I have observed the following... 1. Tuners provide a system which attempts to train your eyes to hear. I dunno...that seems to me a little bit like trying to train your fingers to taste. 2. Tuners used in a public setting tend to start more arguments than they settle. Thanks, guys. I am glad whenever something I write makes any sense to anyone else. And I appreciate the kind words. We're all on this journey together! LX ===================================================== On Mar 8, 2007, at 9:00 AM, sabutin wrote: > Alex wrote: > >> First, I believe you learn how to play in tune by recognizing what >> "in tune" actually sounds like. > > OOOOoooo!!! > > There it is!!! > > Tuners, metronomes, synthesizers, multitracking...all the > paraphernalia of modern music production and academia...are just > substitutes for real knowledge and experience. > > Artificial flavors that DO NOT GET YOU THERE. > > Useful in a pinch, but non-nourishing. > > Relatively ineffective substitutes for experience, attention and > listening. > > We all have to make a decision. Are we simply producing music or are > we trying to become deeper artists and craftsmen? > > If we are simply producing music, then sure. Use a tuner to tell you > what is mathematically correct. In fact...use a pitch regulator that > AUTOMATICALLY tunes up every note. This is very common in the > commercial recording of bad singers. > > Sure. Practice with a metronome 100% of the time. > > You'll be SO rhythmically perfect that you won't be able to phrase. > > Sure...make sure that every rhythm you play is perfectly notatable in > Western European notation. It'll make it SO much easier for future > generations of academics to transcribe your playing. Although they > won't really have to do that because by then there will be computer > programs that will do the transcribing FOR them. With directions on > them that say "DO NOT use this program to transcribe outlaw musicians > like Louis Armstrong and Charlie Parker, because your computer will > self-destruct trying to shoehorn their rhythms and notes into its > mathematical parameters." > >> Listen to groups and players that do play >> in tune together. Get that sound in your head. > > Yup. > > Magic words in that phrase? > > Listen > > Sound > > and > > Head > > (Might as well add Body and Soul to that list. In the key of Db. Also > Better Git It In Your Soul. In the key of Mingus.) > >> ---snip--- [Jeff Reynolds also provides his >> students the simple sage advice..."If you want to get better, you >> have to play with players who play better than you."!] > > > Yup. > > "Good intonation", like musicality of every sort, can only be acquired > by personal exposure to it at the highest levels you can reach. > > You know how a magnetized piece of iron can be used to magnetize > another piece that is not yet magnetized? By rubbing the two together? > Yup. Like that. Bet on it. > > One rehearsal playing with someone like Bobby Rodriguez (The man who > really invented modern Latin bass playing.) is worth 100 years of > metronomes. > > LIVING time, on a level that I cannot even BEGIN to describe. > > One successful unison with someone like Jim Knepper or Thad Jones will > teach you more about sound, pitch and time than all the tuners ever > built. > > IF you have the ears to hear. > > As we all do, pretty much. If we didn't, we wouldn't be on this list > in the first place because we would have been banned from Middle > School band at 12 years of age. > > But in order to hear...YOU HAVE TO LISTEN. > > And tuners do not teach you how to listen. > > They teach you how to think. > > You know that old line..."He's so dumb he can't walk and chew gum at > the same time?" > > Well I'm here to tell you that we are ALL "too dumb" to think and make > music at the same time. > > You can shift back and forth from one mode to the other...we all have > to do that as performers, if only to figure out where that damned coda > sign is or whether we are coming up to the bridge of a tune or not, > etc...but "think" and "play"? I think not. > >> You eventually start the lifelong journey of discovering the "feel" >> of what "in tune" can >> be. > > "Feel". > > NOT "think". > > Too many variables to "think" about pitch. > > I mean...if you know that the oboe player is generally sharp (Aren't > they all?) you can get a head start on that upcoming passage in > octaves, but...HOW sharp? You can only react. And reaction is slowed > by thought. > > Or...here you are improvising at a really fast tempo. Say MM=220. > There is a G7(#9 b13) in the last two beats of a bar. By the time you > "think" that name...you're already past the chord. > > UH oh!!! > > What NOW!!!??? > > You have to hear it. > > Perhaps abstract it as part of a longer harmonic sequence or tonality. > > But "think"? > > Once again...I think not. > >> You learn how to adjust to your surroundings and what if feels like >> to have someone adjust to you. The more clear and vivid this mental >> picture [based on actual sensory experience, rather than just >> theory], the better chance you have of learning to play more in tune >> on any >> given day. > > > Perfect. > >> >> Tuners can help--to a point, in my experience. Good for learning how >> you hear intervals and how you play to a fixed pitch [like A=440]. >> But they too only provide a one dimensional answer to a three >> dimensional question. Only one part of the whole picture. > > > Is there such a thing as "more" perfect? > >> >> The players I observe who rigidly adhere to too many theoretical >> concepts... [to borrow from Eastern philosophy]... "confuse the map >> for the journey". > > > Yup. > > And they get lost a lot, too. > > Sir Lostalot and his trusty squires, Tuna and 'Nome > >> >> I agree with Noreen [hi Noreen!!] and highly recommend Chris Leuba's >> book. Very well written and well thought out. But use with >> caution!!...Like any book, it provides only ONE part of the big >> picture. Once you play a note, your senses [particularly hearing!] >> are the final source for how to adjust a note up or down. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> LX > > > Alex... > > YESSSSS!!!! > > Words from a real pro. > > If I didn't already know how well you play, this little missive would > be all I needed to hear. > > Thank you. > > See ya somewhere... > > (Maybe in LA during the time the Mingus Epitaph thing is there?) > > Wherever. > > Later... > > Sam > > ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 17:11:32 -0800 From: emrose79 Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] (WAS) How to learn about F attachment To: "'Trombone-L List'" Message-ID: <45F0B444.8040005@sonic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed so, Adrian... what do you tune your Gb slide to? FWIW, what I was taught (and we all know how much I paid attention to what I was taught!) was to tune the horn (ok, instrument) to Bb, then tune the F slide to 1st position 4th line F to the first position 4th line F on the Bb... don't know how "legit" it is, but it's always worked for me, as I---in theory, at least--- adjust the pitch no matter which valve I'm using. Ed Adrian Drover wrote: >I guess I'm just too lazy to worry 'bout tuning my F slide. I just play my >Fs and Cs in 2nd position on the Gb valve. I tend to avoid playing in 1st >position a lot these days, yet I also use the Gb valve to avoid diving out >the 5th position. I reckon that Gb valve is the best accessory I got for my >'bone. Sounds freer than the F slide on my horn too. > >A. > >_______________________________________________ >Trombone-l mailing list >Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > > > ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 22:30:10 -0600 From: "Bill Dinwiddie" Subject: [Trombone-l] List of the world's billionaires To: "List Trombone" Message-ID: <001301c76203$a5a0ef00$0a00a8c0@av> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=response >> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/forbes_billionaires_list1 >> >> >> > No trombone players on the list AGAIN this year! > > Bill Dinwiddie > billdin@comcast.net ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 20:36:00 -0800 From: "Price Taylor" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] List of the world's billionaires To: "'Bill Dinwiddie'" , "'List Trombone'" Message-ID: <200703090436.l294aCtR017891@server5.samford.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yes Bill, I sense a pattern, unless Bill Gates and Warren Buffett are secretly playing trombone. - Price -----Original Message----- From: trombone-l-bounces@maillists.samford.edu [mailto:trombone-l-bounces@maillists.samford.edu] On Behalf Of Bill Dinwiddie Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 8:30 PM To: List Trombone Subject: [Trombone-l] List of the world's billionaires >> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/forbes_billionaires_list1 >> >> >> > No trombone players on the list AGAIN this year! > > Bill Dinwiddie > billdin@comcast.net _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 16:53:40 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: Adrian Drover Cc: Trombone-L Message-ID: <98B6AAB8-3883-457D-B3D4-BE743BDB990D@gt.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Mar 8, 2007, at 3:23 AM, Adrian Drover wrote: > > I guess I'm just too lazy to worry 'bout tuning my F slide. I just > play my > Fs and Cs in 2nd position on the Gb valve. I tend to avoid playing > in 1st > position a lot these days, yet I also use the Gb valve to avoid > diving out > the 5th position. I reckon that Gb valve is the best accessory I > got for my > 'bone. Sounds freer than the F slide on my horn too. > > A. ==== And to think... I thought you boys on that side of the big pond played them "G" thangs. Gb. Wow. You make me want one of them 'air toys! --Wayne ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 21:13:24 -0800 From: Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: Robert Slade Cc: Trombone-L List , Wayne Dyess Message-ID: <17982163.1173417204239.JavaMail.root@web28> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Ditto. Excellent book, and also great for low range Euph practice. J.c.S. ---- Robert Slade wrote: > I think this topic got started asking about books to > help with the valve. Has anyone mentioned the "36 > Studies for Trombone with F Attachment" by Blume? I > got my start with that book in high school and would > recommend it. > > Robert Slade > > --- Wayne Dyess wrote: > > > > > On Mar 7, 2007, at 5:58 PM, Howard Spindel wrote: > > > > > I tune to the C in first. As Gabe says, it gets > > you a usable low > > > C. I also think it's easier to hit the low F in > > 6th solidly, and > > > since I primarily play first or second bone parts > > I rarely see low > > > F's anyway. > > > > > > Howard > > > > > > I concede that a lot of guys tune to the C. But I > > don't buy the > > implication that if you tune to F that the C isn't > > usable. > > > > In fact, tune to the C and it's the F that you can't > > use (too flat). > > > > What am I missing? > > > > > > But I do go by the old saying: different strokes > > for different folks. > > > > I've just been tuning to the F for WAY too many > > years to go changing > > now. > > Or even TRYING a change. > > > > No thanks. You guys are just trying to screw me up. > > I'm on to ya. > > > > :-) > > > > (kidding) > > > > Wayne > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Trombone-l mailing list > > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > > > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > TV dinner still cooling? > Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. > http://tv.yahoo.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 23:24:28 -0600 From: "Mark Thompson" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] French solos, test pieces? To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Tom, Thanks for the plug! Much to my disappointment there have been few significant contributions along these lines in recent years. One notable exception is this: I have thoroughly enjoyed many of the books that Jerome Naulais has written in recent years along with his solos. One series (three books) is called Trombone Plaisir [Trombone Pleasure], and it takes the player through many contemporary and pop styles. Another is a HUGE series of progressive studies that begins with two books of progressive studies, then three books each of legato, technique, and style, then a book of finishing studies "transcendates". In the same series there is a set of two moderately difficult bass trombone books and one very difficult alto book. I think that's 15 separate books for the lot. One of my "new" favorites is his Etoile des profondeurs [Star from the Depths]--great name for a bass trombone feature with band or brass band acc. (pf acc. also available)! I say "new" as this piece was written almost a decade ago. Most of these are published through Billaudot and some through Robert Martin. Sincerely, JMT -- Dr. J. Mark Thompson, NCTM Professor of Music, Trombone and Low Brass, Northwestern State University Editor and Co-Author, Solos for the Student Trombonist, 2d ed., http://www.editions-bim.com Member, Board of Advisors, International Trombone Association -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Ervin [mailto:ervint@u.arizona.edu] Sent: Wed 3/7/07 4:32 PM To: Trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Subject: [Trombone-l] French solos, test pieces? Most of us older players know (very well) some of the MANY French solos for trombone and piano, almost all published by Leduc, which were composed almost annually as test pieces for the Paris Conservatoire (and sometimes other conservatories). And there is the very good book, FRENCH MUSIC FOR LOW BRASS INSTRUMENTS, by Jeff Lemke and Mark Thompson (1994, Indiana University Press). Do any listers know, is that stream of solos still coming, still happening, still being composed? Published? Tom Ervin, Professor of Music University of Arizona (Music 133) (alt: with street address) PO Box 210004 MUSIC, Univ Arizona Tucson AZ 85721 1017 North Olive Road Tucson AZ 85719-0506 520/621-7021 (website) ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 22:51:08 -0800 From: ALEX ILES Subject: [Trombone-l] Trombone Day LA To: "trombone-list Trombone'" Message-ID: <27646dc29fad5b29fffafd49c0b0868c@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed This is from Bob Sanders... LX > www.tromboneday.com is a work in progress but it is up.? Check and > check back; it is evolving. ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 08:16:37 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: "'Wayne Dyess'" Cc: 'Trombone-L' Message-ID: <000f01c76223$42e0bab0$0200a8c0@Adrian> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ________________________________________ From: Wayne Dyess [mailto:TexasTbone@gt.rr.com] > And to think... I thought you boys on that side of the big pond played them "G" thangs. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey, Wayne, G trombones are relics of the past now in Grand Britannia. I have two arranging books by British writers that I bought as a kid, one for brass band (Denis Wright) and the other for big band (Reg Owen) which both state that the bass trombone is pitched in G and has no pedal register, the lowest note being C#. That means that in those bygone days the tenor trombone could reach lower notes than the bass trombone. Of course, this is a load of nonsense. I was recently shown an antique pea-shooter G trombone and out of curiosity I had to test this theory. I found I could play all the way down to pedal C# (an octave below the book range) with ease and clarity. I guess the historic players of those horns and arrangers just believed what they were told to believe. A. ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 08:44:16 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] (WAS) How to learn about F attachment To: "'emrose79'" , "'Trombone-L List'" Message-ID: <001001c76227$1fa28660$0200a8c0@Adrian> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > From: Behalf Of emrose79 > > so, Adrian... what do you tune your Gb slide to? I tune it to Gb. I bought my TR181 while on a visit to California and discovered that the Gb extension to the G slide was too long. My good friend, John Leys took me to a small back-yard workshop owned by Rob Stewart who cut the extension down to size. Even now, it only just gets up to Gb, so if the band is sharp I have a problem using it in 1st position. I generally try to avoid using 1st position for exposed or prolonged notes anyhow, using it only to avoid awkward shifts. Like Sam, I prefer playing on mid-slide positions whenever convenient. A. ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 02:05:30 -0800 (PST) From: George Butler Subject: [Trombone-l] wanted to buy: slide trumpet To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <238414.27533.qm@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Before I commission my favorite baroque trombone maker for this project, I thought I'd check with the list to see if anyone has something that he or she would be willing to part with: I need a renaissance slide trumpet. At A=440, it needs to be pitched in E-flat. Or, to put it another way, it needs to be in D at high pitch, which is somewhere around A=466. (I'll be playing with an alta group, a wind group consisting of shawm, bombard and slide trumpet. Most shawm players play at high pitch these days.) By "renaissance," I mean something from the era of that Hans Memling "angel musicians" tryptich of 1485 in Antwerp. It would be great to find one made by a reputable early brass maker, but I will happily consider any home-made project. Feel free to respond off-list, if you prefer. Thanks, ya?ll! George Butler Trombone Teacher Lasnam?e Muusikakool Tallinn, ESTONIA --------------------------------- It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. ------------------------------ Message: 21 Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 02:49:09 -0800 (PST) From: George Butler Subject: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: Trombone List Message-ID: <148624.11149.qm@web52805.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 My favorite method book for young high school level players just starting with the F attachment is Reginald H. Fink's Introducing the F Attachment for Trombone, published by Accura Music in 1993. It's about $14.00. There are six chapters, each with a theme such as, "Learn to play Bb and Eb in very flat third position." Each chapter starts with some introductory exercises by Fink, in half notes and whole notes, then quarter notes, that make the student compare, say, normal third with the low third position. Then, there are some folk tunes that Fink has arranged around that chapter's theme. But, the most valuable part of the book are the short vocalises interspersed throughout by G.B. Frosali. These are bouncier, more detached vocalises than the lyrical Bordogni or Concone vocalises. They are not hard, very tonal, and not too low. Musically, they might strike some as a bit corny, but I like them. I find that they are a great way for me to start back on the horn after a short vacation. The book finishes with some Remington smoothness and relaxation studies on scales in legato, some scales into the low register, and scales in a diatonic pattern. There are also a couple of pages on rotary valve maintenance. After this, I'd go to the O. Blume 36 Studies for Trombone with F Attachment, as edited by (again!) the late Reginald Fink, published by Carl Fischer. (Another edition of the Blume published by Carl Fischer--with a similar-looking cover--is for the straight horn.) Then, Bach 'cello suites: the d minor suite is a good one to start with. George Butler Lasnam?e Muusikakool Tallinn, ESTONIA --------------------------------- Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. ------------------------------ Message: 22 Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 08:48:47 -0500 From: sabutin Subject: [Trombone-l] Dave Taylor/Sam Burtis masterclass-Chicago May 19? Exploring possibilities. To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi all... There has been such a quick and positive response to our dual masterclass in LA (Long Beach to be precise, on May 17th while we are both there playing with the [u]Mingus Epitaph[/u] ensemble) that I am now exploring any and all possibilities for a similar presentation in Chicago on Saturday May 19th, the day after the [u]Epitaph[/u] performance at Symphony Center. We need a venue and some idea of how many trombonists in Chicago might be interested. As I said in my original post about the LA thing: >[Dave and I] have been talking shop for 40 years. May as well make it public. > >But...how many people would be interested, and how much would we be >able to make on the deal? Gotta break even for hotel/food and cover >our lost day of work in NY, at the very least. (The airfare is >covered by the Epitaph tour.) > >Talk to me, folks. > >I promise you, the Sam and Dave show is a trip. > >(We've been practicing...) > >Anyone? Please get in touch with me if you have any ideas regarding this. PM me here or email me at . We are both very up about the possibility of doing more of these classes. As soon as we figure out who the straight man will be in this duo, we're going to be A-OK. Bet on it. Later... Sam ------------------------------ Message: 23 Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 09:46:16 -0500 From: Raymond Horton Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: George Butler Cc: Trombone List Message-ID: <45F17338.9090704@insightbb.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Thanks, George, for that review of Reginald's book. I'd seen it listed but hadn't checked it out yet. I should have known that it would be like his other intro books (_Introducing Legato_, _Introducing the Tenor Clef_, _Introducing the Alto Clef_) very well thought out, methodical, interesting, excellent for young players, etc. Reginald really left a wealth of pedagogical materials for us, even though lung cancer took him in his early 60s. His books, and his early passing, give me a chance to do a little bit of preaching against smoking to my students. I tell them how surprised I was, after meeting Reginald at the Kentucky Trombone Workshop in 1983, to see him the next year as I was coming in to the International Brass Congress at Bloomington. He was outside the MAC, grabbing a smoke, and waved sheepishly to me. I surmise he was about the right age to be in Korea, and may have picked up the habit there (just as my dad picked up the habit in WWII that eventually killed him ). Does anyone know if Reg was in Korea? Anyway, he was a great guy and a great teacher. Ray Horton Bass Trombonist Louisville Orchestra George Butler wrote: > My favorite method book for young high school level players just starting with the F attachment is Reginald H. Fink's Introducing the F Attachment for Trombone, published by Accura Music in 1993. It's about $14.00. > > There are six chapters, each with a theme such as, "Learn to play Bb and Eb in very flat third position." Each chapter starts with some introductory exercises by Fink, in half notes and whole notes, then quarter notes, that make the student compare, say, normal third with the low third position. Then, there are some folk tunes that Fink has arranged around that chapter's theme. > > But, the most valuable part of the book are the short vocalises interspersed throughout by G.B. Frosali. These are bouncier, more detached vocalises than the lyrical Bordogni or Concone vocalises. They are not hard, very tonal, and not too low. Musically, they might strike some as a bit corny, but I like them. I find that they are a great way for me to start back on the horn after a short vacation. > > The book finishes with some Remington smoothness and relaxation studies on scales in legato, some scales into the low register, and scales in a diatonic pattern. There are also a couple of pages on rotary valve maintenance. > > After this, I'd go to the O. Blume 36 Studies for Trombone with F Attachment, as edited by (again!) the late Reginald Fink, published by Carl Fischer. (Another edition of the Blume published by Carl Fischer--with a similar-looking cover--is for the straight horn.) > > Then, Bach 'cello suites: the d minor suite is a good one to start with. > > George Butler > Lasnam?e Muusikakool > Tallinn, ESTONIA > > > > > ------------------------------ Message: 24 Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 08:28:31 -0700 From: "Steve Gamble" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Intonation (Or...I think not, therefore I am.) To: "Gabriel Langfur" , Message-ID: <0B5C87139BED1C49B4CFA3563492DD812AF8E7@srv01.tso.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All, I want to pick up on something Gabe said re listening for balance and blend. I teach my students a 'rule' when we're learning to play in tune. When you notice that there is a discrepancy in pitch, the first thing to do is to make sure you are making your best possible tone. The next thing is to make sure that you are playing at the appropriate volume and then, if pitch is still a problem, adjust the frequency. Resist changing the pitch until the first two steps are completed. Consistently following this priority list, it's not long before pitch problems are solved before step 3 is ever reached. (One big reason for this is that you are also giving the other players the best possible conditions to adjust to you.) Pitch problems are almost always mixed in with other deficiencies. It's pretty easy to misinterpret what you are hearing as a simple out of tune note. We've all experienced the situation where no matter how we adjust, it still sounds wrong. Somewhere in there was the right pitch, but it wasn't recognizable as in tune. This can make many players begin to think that playing in tune is difficult. It's not, really; it's just a sound that you learn to recognize...just like good tone and equal volume. Now about tuners: I've posted something like this before but maybe this is a good time to do it again. The bad rap on tuners comes from not using them correctly. Basically, the only good way to use a tuner is to never adjust to it!! Instead, once you see that the tuner is telling you that your concept of a particular pitch is incorrect, change your concept. Now play your new concept, then look at the tuner; again, if it doesn't match, don't adjust. Keep tweaking your concept until the tuner tells you that what you are already thinking is in tune with the tuner. That way you are practicing playing in tune in a way that is much more compatible with real-life music making with other real-life imperfect musicians who often play in between the little notches on your tuner. One other little bit: don't make too big a deal out of rules. Rules are a description of a thing; they aren't the thing. The thing inspired the rules, but following the rules never gets you there. So giving too much importance to a 'this partial is flat and that partial is sharp' kind of approach to good intonation will get you nothing but frustration. If you really want to follow the rules, learn the sound...make the sound. Steve Gamble, Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 520-792-9155 x118 office 520-792-9314 fax 520-991-7056 cell sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org www.tucsonsymphony.org -----Original Message----- From: trombone-l-bounces@maillists.samford.edu [mailto:trombone-l-bounces@maillists.samford.edu] On Behalf Of Gabriel Langfur Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 2:25 PM To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Intonation (Or...I think not, therefore I am.) This is great stuff. When I started college I really barely knew what a trombone should sound like, much less what in tune or in time sounded like. I spent most of my early lessons with Per Brevig (I was very lucky...) playing Rochut in octaves with him, and he would simply stop and wait for me to find him on the notes that were farthest out of tune. What a generous man - he really didn't need to be wasting chops on a naive freshman like me. In the next couple of years of college I played in a trombone quartet, which we took VERY seriously. We rehearsed all the time, and we recorded most of it, constantly going into listening rooms in the library to listen back, and then going back to try it again. The other 3 guys INSISTED that I stop fishing for pitch, so that they could make adjustments to something that wasn't moving. Together, we learned how to play beautifully in tune by always listening for balance and blend, and then listening back to make sure we weren't fooling ourselves in any way. And when we weren't rehearsing, we were often listening to the world's great vocal ensembles to hear how they did it. I tell students to hear the pitch, and then put their slide in what they think is the right place, and then DON'T MOVE unless they have very clearly determined that their pitch is off. That way, they have a much better chance of putting it in the RIGHT place right away the next time. Mike Roylance, the tuba player in the Boston Symphony, has incredible pitch - or, I should say, an amazing balance of clear pitch center and breadth of sound, which is one of the big things I'm hoping for in a tuba player. He tells me he's never owned a tuner, but he practices A LOT with reference drone pitches - a more organic way of being very strict with yourself about pitch, I tend to think. Tuners can very easily get even excellent players into strange head games. Just some more thoughts... Gabe ----- Original Message ---- From: sabutin To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2007 12:00:48 PM Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Intonation (Or...I think not, therefore I am.) Alex wrote: >First, I believe you learn how to play in tune by recognizing what "in >tune" actually sounds like. OOOOoooo!!! There it is!!! Tuners, metronomes, synthesizers, multitracking...all the paraphernalia of modern music production and academia...are just substitutes for real knowledge and experience. Artificial flavors that DO NOT GET YOU THERE. Useful in a pinch, but non-nourishing. Relatively ineffective substitutes for experience, attention and listening. We all have to make a decision. Are we simply producing music or are we trying to become deeper artists and craftsmen? If we are simply producing music, then sure. Use a tuner to tell you what is mathematically correct. In fact...use a pitch regulator that AUTOMATICALLY tunes up every note. This is very common in the commercial recording of bad singers. Sure. Practice with a metronome 100% of the time. You'll be SO rhythmically perfect that you won't be able to phrase. Sure...make sure that every rhythm you play is perfectly notatable in Western European notation. It'll make it SO much easier for future generations of academics to transcribe your playing. Although they won't really have to do that because by then there will be computer programs that will do the transcribing FOR them. With directions on them that say "DO NOT use this program to transcribe outlaw musicians like Louis Armstrong and Charlie Parker, because your computer will self-destruct trying to shoehorn their rhythms and notes into its mathematical parameters." >Listen to groups and players that do play >in tune together. Get that sound in your head. Yup. Magic words in that phrase? Listen Sound and Head (Might as well add Body and Soul to that list. In the key of Db. Also Better Git It In Your Soul. In the key of Mingus.) >---snip--- [Jeff Reynolds also provides his >students the simple sage advice..."If you want to get better, you have >to play with players who play better than you."!] Yup. "Good intonation", like musicality of every sort, can only be acquired by personal exposure to it at the highest levels you can reach. You know how a magnetized piece of iron can be used to magnetize another piece that is not yet magnetized? By rubbing the two together? Yup. Like that. Bet on it. One rehearsal playing with someone like Bobby Rodriguez (The man who really invented modern Latin bass playing.) is worth 100 years of metronomes. LIVING time, on a level that I cannot even BEGIN to describe. One successful unison with someone like Jim Knepper or Thad Jones will teach you more about sound, pitch and time than all the tuners ever built. IF you have the ears to hear. As we all do, pretty much. If we didn't, we wouldn't be on this list in the first place because we would have been banned from Middle School band at 12 years of age. But in order to hear...YOU HAVE TO LISTEN. And tuners do not teach you how to listen. They teach you how to think. You know that old line..."He's so dumb he can't walk and chew gum at the same time?" Well I'm here to tell you that we are ALL "too dumb" to think and make music at the same time. You can shift back and forth from one mode to the other...we all have to do that as performers, if only to figure out where that damned coda sign is or whether we are coming up to the bridge of a tune or not, etc...but "think" and "play"? I think not. > You eventually start >the lifelong journey of discovering the "feel" of what "in tune" can >be. "Feel". NOT "think". Too many variables to "think" about pitch. I mean...if you know that the oboe player is generally sharp (Aren't they all?) you can get a head start on that upcoming passage in octaves, but...HOW sharp? You can only react. And reaction is slowed by thought. Or...here you are improvising at a really fast tempo. Say MM=220. There is a G7(#9 b13) in the last two beats of a bar. By the time you "think" that name...you're already past the chord. UH oh!!! What NOW!!!??? You have to hear it. Perhaps abstract it as part of a longer harmonic sequence or tonality. But "think"? Once again...I think not. > You learn how to adjust to your surroundings and what if feels like >to have someone adjust to you. The more clear and vivid this mental >picture [based on actual sensory experience, rather than just theory], >the better chance you have of learning to play more in tune on any >given day. Perfect. > >Tuners can help--to a point, in my experience. Good for learning how >you hear intervals and how you play to a fixed pitch [like A=440]. But >they too only provide a one dimensional answer to a three dimensional >question. Only one part of the whole picture. Is there such a thing as "more" perfect? > >The players I observe who rigidly adhere to too many theoretical >concepts... [to borrow from Eastern philosophy]... "confuse the map for >the journey". Yup. And they get lost a lot, too. Sir Lostalot and his trusty squires, Tuna and 'Nome > >I agree with Noreen [hi Noreen!!] and highly recommend Chris Leuba's >book. Very well written and well thought out. But use with >caution!!...Like any book, it provides only ONE part of the big >picture. Once you play a note, your senses [particularly hearing!] are >the final source for how to adjust a note up or down. > >Best wishes, > >LX Alex... YESSSSS!!!! Words from a real pro. If I didn't already know how well you play, this little missive would be all I needed to hear. Thank you. See ya somewhere... (Maybe in LA during the time the Mingus Epitaph thing is there?) Wherever. Later... Sam _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 25 Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:24:15 -0500 From: Josh Kane Subject: [Trombone-l] Fiesta Del Pacifico To: Raymond Horton Cc: Trombone List Message-ID: <2CF6E744-D59F-4B38-BEAA-FBD09C40F9B4@cox.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Does anyone have a copy the Tenor Sax part to Roger Nixon's Fiesta Del Pacifico they could send me? Thanks, Josh Kane Rhode Island College Wind Ensemble Librarian ------------------------------ Message: 26 Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 16:27:50 -0000 From: "Keith Marr" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Intonation To: "trombone-list Trombone'" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original I've managed to source the intonation studies I was referring to earlier in this thread. They are "Intonation Studies for the Trombone Section" by Roger Harvey (a respected professional) and they are excellent for practicing what Alex Iles was talking about (i.e. the note's theoretical function in a chord. The function of the note in a chord. Where is the chord going? How is it voiced? What is the dynamic? How is the section balanced dynamically? What kind of timbre are you going for as a group?) the link to find them is www.brassworks-music.com/pages/brass_books.htm I recommend them. There is also a brasswork book for alto trombone on that page. Cheers! Keith in Bb/F/D Bass Trombone St Albans Symphony Orchestra North Herts Big Band ------------------------------ Message: 27 Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 16:42:17 -0000 From: "Keith Marr" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] (WAS) How to learn about F attachment To: "emrose79" , "'Trombone-L List'" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original I played next to a guy a few months ago who tuned his fourth line F on the valve to the same note on the open horn. It didn't seem to occur to him to tune the oboe . . . hmmm! Cheers! Keith in Bb/F/D Bass Trombone St Albans Symphony Orchestra North Herts Big Band ----- Original Message ----- From: "emrose79" To: "'Trombone-L List'" Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 1:11 AM Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] (WAS) How to learn about F attachment > so, Adrian... what do you tune your Gb slide to? > FWIW, what I was taught (and we all know how much I paid attention to > what I was taught!) was to tune the horn (ok, instrument) to Bb, then > tune the F slide to 1st position 4th line F to the first position 4th > line F on the Bb... don't know how "legit" it is, but it's always worked > for me, as I---in theory, at least--- adjust the pitch no matter which > valve I'm using. > Ed > > > > > > Adrian Drover wrote: > >>I guess I'm just too lazy to worry 'bout tuning my F slide. I just play >>my >>Fs and Cs in 2nd position on the Gb valve. I tend to avoid playing in 1st >>position a lot these days, yet I also use the Gb valve to avoid diving out >>the 5th position. I reckon that Gb valve is the best accessory I got for >>my >>'bone. Sounds freer than the F slide on my horn too. >> >>A. >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Trombone-l mailing list >>Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >>http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > ------------------------------ Message: 28 Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 00:40:38 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: thetubameister@adelphia.net Cc: Trombone-L List Message-ID: <76C64F1A-C3CF-41C7-99E4-6825083F42A4@gt.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Mar 8, 2007, at 9:03 AM, thetubameister@adelphia.net wrote: > Tune to C, you lose a note. Tune to F, you've got all possibilities. This was my point, exactly. And I love Alex's post. It's all about matching pitches and LISTENING! Fun topic of discussion. Thanks. Wayne ------------------------------ Message: 29 Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:19:37 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: Adrian Drover Cc: 'Trombone-L' Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Mar 9, 2007, at 2:16 AM, Adrian Drover wrote: > Hey, Wayne, G trombones are relics of the past now in Grand > Britannia. I > have two arranging books by British writers that I bought as a kid, > one for > brass band (Denis Wright) and the other for big band (Reg Owen) > which both > state that the bass trombone is pitched in G and has no pedal > register, the > lowest note being C#. That means that in those bygone days the tenor > trombone could reach lower notes than the bass trombone. > > Of course, this is a load of nonsense. I was recently shown an > antique > pea-shooter G trombone and out of curiosity I had to test this > theory. I > found I could play all the way down to pedal C# (an octave below > the book > range) with ease and clarity. I guess the historic players of > those horns > and arrangers just believed what they were told to believe. > > A. Interesting, Adrian! Our orchestration teacher asked me to come in and talk to his class about the trombone a while back. They were all confused, including the teacher, about the F attachment and the range of the trombone. Seems their orchestration book was full of hooey. And so it goes. :-) Wayne ------------------------------ Message: 30 Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 09:47:21 -0800 (PST) From: Jason Smith Subject: [Trombone-l] recording request To: bone list , band list Message-ID: <65659.96250.qm@web35008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 My daughters middle school band is playing a richard Meyer piece called "quintology". Does anybody know this piece and does anybody have a recording I could hear? Thanks Jason Jason Smith www.thebandroomtx.com www.concerttimeusa.com www.pershingparkbaptist.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l End of Trombone-l Digest, Vol 26, Issue 9 *****************************************