Subject: Trombone-l Digest, Vol 26, Issue 8 Date: Thursday, March 8, 2007 12:00 PM From: trombone-l-request@maillists.samford.edu Reply-To: trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu To: Conversation: Trombone-l Digest, Vol 26, Issue 8 Send Trombone-l mailing list submissions to trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to trombone-l-request@maillists.samford.edu You can reach the person managing the list at trombone-l-owner@maillists.samford.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Trombone-l digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Stolen Edwards, Minnesota Region? (Matthew Stoecker) 2. Re: How to learn about F attachment (Tom Izzo) 3. French solos, test pieces? (Thomas Ervin) 4. Re: How to learn about F attachment (Howard Spindel) 5. Re: Trombone is cool because it is simple (Howard Spindel) 6. Re: Stolen Edwards, Minnesota Region? (Keith Marr) 7. Re: Stolen Edwards, Minnesota Region? (Howard Spindel) 8. For David Guion (mahler427@aol.com) 9. Re: How to learn about F attachment (Wayne Dyess) 10. Re: How to learn about F attachment (Adrian Drover) 11. Re: How to learn about F attachment (sabutin) 12. More on the Dave Taylor/Sam Burtis dual masterclass in LA, 5/17 (sabutin) 13. Re: Intonation (Noreen Harris-Baer) 14. Re: Intonation (Matmutt@aol.com) 15. Re: Intonation (Keith Marr) 16. Re: How to learn about F attachment (Keith Marr) 17. Re: How to learn about F attachment (Adrian Drover) 18. Re: How to learn about F attachment (thetubameister@adelphia.net) 19. FW: How to learn about F attachment (Eric Edwards) 20. (no subject) (Tom Gibson) 21. Re: Intonation (ALEX ILES) 22. Re: FW: How to learn about F attachment (basstrb3@comcast.net) 23. Re: Intonation (Or...I think not, therefore I am.) (sabutin) 24. Re: How to learn about F attachment (Tom Izzo) 25. Re: FW: How to learn about F attachment (Jason Smith) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 11:18:38 -0800 From: "Matthew Stoecker" Subject: [Trombone-l] Stolen Edwards, Minnesota Region? To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Anyone who suffered a stolen Edwards or knows anyone who did might want to check out eBay auction # 120095058730 Looks extremely suspicious to me. Matthew Stoecker ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 12:53:52 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Izzo Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: Wayne Dyess , Walter Barrett Cc: Trombone-L List Message-ID: <995942.54762.qm@web52703.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Walter, --- Wayne Dyess wrote: > Actually, I don't know of any players who tune their > F attachment on > the C. > > It ain't called the "F" attachment for nuttin', ya > know. Like why is > it a Bb trombone? Do we tune best on an "A"? I > think not. > Well................. I tune my Tenor's F attach to C (I use more C's than low F's on Tenor). I tune by Bass' F attach to F (more need for lower notes on Bass). Of course it also helps to have a second valve too (and in my case a C valve) on Bassi. [But that's a whole 'nother subject!!!!] Tom > Tom Izzo Principal Trombonist, Bristol Renaissance Faire; Bass Trombonist, West Suburban Symphony Orchestra; Founding Director, The Naperville Area Trombone Ensemble; Alto/Tenor/Bass/Contrabass Trombones, Tubas, Euphonium, Bass Trumpet, Electric Bass, Timpani & Percussion. http://www.Geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/7875/ (630) 858-7832 ____________________________________________________________________________________ Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 15:32:12 -0700 From: Thomas Ervin Subject: [Trombone-l] French solos, test pieces? To: Trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <38325FDD-4742-48D9-9ED3-E869853775D5@u.arizona.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Most of us older players know (very well) some of the MANY French solos for trombone and piano, almost all published by Leduc, which were composed almost annually as test pieces for the Paris Conservatoire (and sometimes other conservatories). And there is the very good book, FRENCH MUSIC FOR LOW BRASS INSTRUMENTS, by Jeff Lemke and Mark Thompson (1994, Indiana University Press). Do any listers know, is that stream of solos still coming, still happening, still being composed? Published? Tom Ervin, Professor of Music University of Arizona (Music 133) (alt: with street address) PO Box 210004 MUSIC, Univ Arizona Tucson AZ 85721 1017 North Olive Road Tucson AZ 85719-0506 520/621-7021 (website) ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 15:58:34 -0800 From: Howard Spindel Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: Trombone-L List Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20070307155703.03ff3e68@sci1.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I tune to the C in first. As Gabe says, it gets you a usable low C. I also think it's easier to hit the low F in 6th solidly, and since I primarily play first or second bone parts I rarely see low F's anyway. Howard At 04:27 AM 3/7/2007, Gabriel Langfur wrote: >I do. Mostly they are bass trombone players who commit to playing >low Fs on the 2nd valve or in 6th - but I also know tenor players >who use 6th for the low F and keep their valve slide long enough to >get a usable low C. > >Gabe > >----- Original Message ---- >From: Wayne Dyess >To: Walter Barrett >Cc: Trombone-L List >Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2007 12:32:15 AM >Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment > > >Actually, I don't know of any players who tune their F attachment on >the C. > >It ain't called the "F" attachment for nuttin', ya know. Like why is >it a Bb trombone? Do we tune best on an "A"? I think not. > > >On Mar 6, 2007, at 9:26 PM, Walter Barrett wrote: > > > > Tuning the F attachment usually falls into 2 camps- tune it so 2nd > > space C is in tune. (One disadvantage to this is that F in Valve 1st > > is then flat, and you have to play it in 6th all the time.) The other > > camp says to tune it so that low F is in tune. The 2nd space C will > > be sharp, but you can bring it down with the handslide, usually about > > 1/2-3/4 inch out from regular 1st. The disadvantage to this tuning is > > that low C (2nd leger) is more sharp than when you tune the other > > way, and has to be lipped down even more. (That low C is usually > > sharp, no matter which way you tune it. It's just more sharp with the > > F in tune method.) > > > > I like the low F in tune method, myself. I find myself wanting the > > availability of F in 1st AND 6th. > > > > > > Walter Barrett > >======== > >But yeah, the "C" will be somewhat sharp. Overtone series... same >reason the 2nd line "F" is sharp on the Bb side of the horn. Duh. > >Al Lube laid out the overtone series great (a fine teacher I had at >UofH). All numbers. Physics, but we won't go there. Acoustics... >whatever you want to call it. > >1 - fundamental. Gotta start somewhere. This pup better be in >tune! Pedal Bb. >2 - the octave above. Another "in-tune" note. >3 - here is the F in the staff. It's sharp. Note the odd number. >4 - another Bb. Another note "in-tune." Note the pattern of the >Bb's and the numbers >5 - the D above the staff. Flat. Another odd number. >6 - the F above that. An even number, but divide it in half and you >get the 3. Also sharp! >7 - Do we really want to go there? VERY flat. Rarely do we want to >play the Ab in 1st. Avoid it babe. >8 - The high Bb. Another note "in-tune", if we aren't pinching to >get it. > >1,2,4,8 = Bb's, in tune. >3,6 = F (and sharp) >5,7 = flat and very flat. > > >It's all a numbers game. > >Translate those numbers to the F attachment, beginning with the "F" >as your fundamental, and you find the C is sharp. It's just gonna be >that way. But mercy -- don't TUNE the thing to C. > >That's another topic of discussion since I hear a LOT of bands tuning >their brass to "F". In my book, that's just flat out wrong and their >bands don't play well in tune. Can't imagine why. > >It's a Bb Trombone!!! >Sometimes with an F attachment. > >So tune it that way. > >My two cents. >Rant over. > >:-) >--Wayne Dyess > > > >_______________________________________________ >Trombone-l mailing list >Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l >_______________________________________________ >Trombone-l mailing list >Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 16:07:24 -0800 From: Howard Spindel Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Trombone is cool because it is simple To: "'Trombone-L'" Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20070307160639.01ee6000@sci1.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:56 PM 3/6/2007, Adrian Drover wrote: >I guess that's why I like playing the trombone. It's primitively perfect. > >A. Ooh, yes. And in a beginner's hands it's perfectly primitive. :-) Howard ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 01:49:36 -0000 From: "Keith Marr" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Stolen Edwards, Minnesota Region? To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Hmm, see what you mean. Could just be that he has no idea of it's value but then his brother would've surely put him right about it. Maybe his brother doesn't know he's selling it . . . hmmm! Certainly bargain buys are rare these days on eBay. Nearly all Chinese or Indian stuff. Although he's got 100% positive feedback from 20 trades they are all as a buyer. This is the first time he is a seller. No bids at this stage I notice. Cheers! Keith in Bb/F/D Bass Trombone St Albans Symphony Orchestra North Herts Big Band ----- Original Message ----- From: Matthew Stoecker > Anyone who suffered a stolen Edwards or knows anyone who did might > want to check out eBay auction # 120095058730 > > Looks extremely suspicious to me. > > Matthew Stoecker ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 19:13:33 -0800 From: Howard Spindel Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Stolen Edwards, Minnesota Region? To: Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20070307191125.01ec7368@sci1.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The seller lists it as a Bach, not an Edwards, which would be much less. But even a Thayerized Bach should go higher I think. Plus if his brother collects trombones, surely he knows the value of the instrument. Lastly, there could be significant damage we don't see in the photos. I'm not rushing to buy it. Howard At 05:49 PM 3/7/2007, Keith Marr wrote: >Hmm, see what you mean. Could just be that he has no idea of it's value but >then his brother would've surely put him right about it. Maybe his brother >doesn't know he's selling it . . . hmmm! Certainly bargain buys are rare >these days on eBay. Nearly all Chinese or Indian stuff. > >Although he's got 100% positive feedback from 20 trades they are all as a >buyer. This is the first time he is a seller. > >No bids at this stage I notice. > >Cheers! > >Keith in Bb/F/D >Bass Trombone >St Albans Symphony Orchestra >North Herts Big Band > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Matthew Stoecker > > > > Anyone who suffered a stolen Edwards or knows anyone who did might > > want to check out eBay auction # 120095058730 > > > > Looks extremely suspicious to me. > > > > Matthew Stoecker > >_______________________________________________ >Trombone-l mailing list >Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 22:23:14 EST From: mahler427@aol.com Subject: [Trombone-l] For David Guion To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Please contact me off-list. I'd like to talk with you about Fred Innes. Joseph Frye ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 22:02:17 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: Howard Spindel Cc: Trombone-L List Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Mar 7, 2007, at 5:58 PM, Howard Spindel wrote: > I tune to the C in first. As Gabe says, it gets you a usable low > C. I also think it's easier to hit the low F in 6th solidly, and > since I primarily play first or second bone parts I rarely see low > F's anyway. > > Howard I concede that a lot of guys tune to the C. But I don't buy the implication that if you tune to F that the C isn't usable. In fact, tune to the C and it's the F that you can't use (too flat). What am I missing? But I do go by the old saying: different strokes for different folks. I've just been tuning to the F for WAY too many years to go changing now. Or even TRYING a change. No thanks. You guys are just trying to screw me up. I'm on to ya. :-) (kidding) Wayne ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 09:23:25 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: "'Tom Izzo'" , "'Wayne Dyess'" , "'Walter Barrett'" Cc: 'Trombone-L List' Message-ID: <000c01c76163$6dcce6b0$0400a8c0@Adrian> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > From: Tom Izzo > > I tune my Tenor's F attach to C (I use more C's than > low F's on Tenor). > I tune by Bass' F attach to F (more need for lower > notes on Bass). I guess I'm just too lazy to worry 'bout tuning my F slide. I just play my Fs and Cs in 2nd position on the Gb valve. I tend to avoid playing in 1st position a lot these days, yet I also use the Gb valve to avoid diving out the 5th position. I reckon that Gb valve is the best accessory I got for my 'bone. Sounds freer than the F slide on my horn too. A. ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 05:41:39 -0500 From: sabutin Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > From: Tom Izzo >> >> I tune my Tenor's F attach to C (I use more C's than >> low F's on Tenor). >> I tune by Bass' F attach to F (more need for lower >> notes on Bass). > > >I guess I'm just too lazy to worry 'bout tuning my F slide. I just play my >Fs and Cs in 2nd position on the Gb valve. I tend to avoid playing in 1st >position a lot these days, yet I also use the Gb valve to avoid diving out >the 5th position. I reckon that Gb valve is the best accessory I got for my >'bone. Sounds freer than the F slide on my horn too. > >A. I am beginning to believe the same thing about the Gb valve, Adrian, although I have not yet spent enough time practicing its use to be really reflexive on it. Bass is a double for me, so I learn new things slowly, over time. But I do finally figure stuff out. Use of the Gb valve pushes all the positions out closer to the center of the slide, which is precisely the reason that I use extended positions on tenor. Onmce they get TOO far out...saYyGb trigger D in 5th...why there's the D on the F trigger. Plus, Db and Gb in the bass clef are often very convenient to have in 1st as well. And, as you say...it plays marginally freer than the F trigger because it is marginally shorter. All in all, a wonderful option. Sam >_______________________________________________ >Trombone-l mailing list >Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 06:46:32 -0500 From: sabutin Subject: [Trombone-l] More on the Dave Taylor/Sam Burtis dual masterclass in LA, 5/17 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi all... More on this idea... It looks like the masterclass will be held at Cal State Long Beach on May 17th. No time yet. Stay tuned. Probably early afternoon-ish. Christine Hayes (a trombonist who teaches at the school) is setting it up through the brass coordinator there, Rob Frears. More info follows. Sam > >Maybe. > >Dave and I will both be in LA for the Mingus Epitaph concert, and we >both would love to do it. We've been talking shop for 40 years. May >as well make it public. Steve Ferguson says that we could use his >store. > >But...how many people would be interested, and how much would we be >able to make on the deal? Gotta break even for hotel/food and cover >our lost day of work in NY, at the very least. (The airfare is >covered by the Epitaph tour.) > >Talk to me, folks. > >I promise you, the Sam and Dave show is a trip. > >(We've been practicing...) > >Anyone? > >S. ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 04:55:04 -0800 (PST) From: Noreen Harris-Baer Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Intonation To: Keith Marr , TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Message-ID: <541448.38581.qm@web54005.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 When I was a student of Jeff Reynolds, he was all about the exact concept you are writing about. He recommended a good book to me by Chris Leuba (formerly of the Chicago Symphony) called "A Study In Musical Intonation". I saw it for sale on Cherry Classics: https://www.cherry-classics.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/CCMusic.woa/wa/brassSheetMusic Noreen Baer --- Keith Marr wrote: > As the F attachment thread has migrated onto the > subject of tuning I would like to elaborate on > what's already been said. > > Intonation is not just a case of knowing the slide > position to be in tune with your colleagues, i.e. > the position you use on the slide will not always be > the same for the same note. > > Take for example, as I've noticed, the brass > ensemble at the end of the first movement of > Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony which I am playing for > Saturday (for those without the music that's the bit > where the strings start playing a pizzicato downward > scale, quavers on the beat): > > The 3rd trombone at bars 336-337 is the same as at > 338-339, a bar of Es (third space bass clef) to the > F# above it. I have to play the second F# slightly > sharper than the first because of the change in the > first trombone and trumpet part. They come down from > an E (top line tenor clef) to the D first time and D > to D# the second time. The second trombone goes from > G (second space tenor clef) to B both times and I > would be interested to ask the second player (we've > not yet met) if they experience anything similar. > > The section's done a little intonation practice from > time to time and we find that the third of the chord > has to be sharper rising to it than lowering to it > (hope I've expressed that intelligibly). If you have > a section you play with regularly try playing triads > and going from major to minor and back again. Take > it in turns to play the third of the chord and play > the first and second inversions as well. You will > notice a small but significant difference in the > position on the slide that you use for the new note > each time. > > I remember seeing some intonation studies for > trombone sections (+tuba) and using them on one > occasion but I sadly can't remember who they were > produced and published by or I would buy them. > > So playing in tune is probably the toughest thing we > have to do in orchestra playing, especially as even > the quietest entry is so noticeable when you playing > with strings and woodwinds. > > twopence worth > > Cheers! > > Keith in Bb/F/D > Bass Trombone > St Albans Symphony Orchestra > North Herts Big Band > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > Dr. Noreen Harris Baer Baer Tracks Music H-(845)510-4127 C-(845)558-6342 ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 08:38:24 EST From: Matmutt@aol.com Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Intonation To: baer_brass@yahoo.com, Mail@gothicway.fsnet.co.uk, TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" There is an excellent tuner on the market, the CP2 center pitch clip on tuner. You can find them on Ebay. It comes with an extensive chart showing the alterations form dead center pitch , depending on the context of the note sounded. While it's a guide, the ear still rules. Larry Priori ( the passionate amatuer )


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 13:46:23 -0000 From: "Keith Marr" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Intonation To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Noreer/Listers Reading the synopsis to that book on the Cherry website suggests it will be a very interesting read. I'm in for a copy! Cheers! Keith in Bb/F/D Bass Trombone St Albans Symphony Orchestra North Herts Big Band ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noreen Harris-Baer" To: "Keith Marr" ; Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 12:55 PM Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Intonation > When I was a student of Jeff Reynolds, he was all > about the exact concept you are writing about. He > recommended a good book to me by Chris Leuba (formerly > of the Chicago Symphony) called "A Study In Musical > Intonation". I saw it for sale on Cherry Classics: > > https://www.cherry-classics.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/CCMusic.woa/wa/brassSheetMusic > > Noreen Baer > > --- Keith Marr wrote: > >> As the F attachment thread has migrated onto the >> subject of tuning I would like to elaborate on >> what's already been said. >> >> Intonation is not just a case of knowing the slide >> position to be in tune with your colleagues, i.e. >> the position you use on the slide will not always be >> the same for the same note. >> >> Take for example, as I've noticed, the brass >> ensemble at the end of the first movement of >> Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony which I am playing for >> Saturday (for those without the music that's the bit >> where the strings start playing a pizzicato downward >> scale, quavers on the beat): >> >> The 3rd trombone at bars 336-337 is the same as at >> 338-339, a bar of Es (third space bass clef) to the >> F# above it. I have to play the second F# slightly >> sharper than the first because of the change in the >> first trombone and trumpet part. They come down from >> an E (top line tenor clef) to the D first time and D >> to D# the second time. The second trombone goes from >> G (second space tenor clef) to B both times and I >> would be interested to ask the second player (we've >> not yet met) if they experience anything similar. >> >> The section's done a little intonation practice from >> time to time and we find that the third of the chord >> has to be sharper rising to it than lowering to it >> (hope I've expressed that intelligibly). If you have >> a section you play with regularly try playing triads >> and going from major to minor and back again. Take >> it in turns to play the third of the chord and play >> the first and second inversions as well. You will >> notice a small but significant difference in the >> position on the slide that you use for the new note >> each time. >> >> I remember seeing some intonation studies for >> trombone sections (+tuba) and using them on one >> occasion but I sadly can't remember who they were >> produced and published by or I would buy them. >> >> So playing in tune is probably the toughest thing we >> have to do in orchestra playing, especially as even >> the quietest entry is so noticeable when you playing >> with strings and woodwinds. >> >> twopence worth >> >> Cheers! >> >> Keith in Bb/F/D >> Bass Trombone >> St Albans Symphony Orchestra >> North Herts Big Band >> _______________________________________________ >> Trombone-l mailing list >> Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >> > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l >> > > > Dr. Noreen Harris Baer > Baer Tracks Music > H-(845)510-4127 > C-(845)558-6342 > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 13:52:35 -0000 From: "Keith Marr" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: "'Trombone-L List'" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original A number of guys I've spoken to have extolled the virtues of an independent Gb valve. In several years of using a Holton 181 I hardly ever did. Just too many years prior (about 25 actually) playing a King Duo Gravis and I guess my playing's so much into the dependent system groove. So I'm back on a dependent system with my Rath now. I guess if I played more big band than I do it would be good to work on that with an independent horn. As I'm commenting about a thread for Mr A Drover I would just like to do a plug for his bass trombone warm-up routine, which has improved my technique immensely. It's a free download from his website. The link is http://www.adios.co.uk/trom.htm and the warm-up routine is available at the bottom of the page. Shame it's free, I could've touched Adrian for 10%! Cheers! Keith in Bb/F/D Bass Trombone St Albans Symphony Orchestra North Herts Big Band ----- Original Message ----- I guess I'm just too lazy to worry 'bout tuning my F slide. I just play my Fs and Cs in 2nd position on the Gb valve. I tend to avoid playing in 1st position a lot these days, yet I also use the Gb valve to avoid diving out the 5th position. I reckon that Gb valve is the best accessory I got for my 'bone. Sounds freer than the F slide on my horn too. ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 14:56:22 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: "'Keith Marr'" , "'Trombone-L List'" Message-ID: <001301c76191$f0e3c680$0400a8c0@Adrian> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > From: Keith Marr > > As I'm commenting about a thread for Mr A Drover I would just like to do a > plug for his bass trombone warm-up routine, which has improved my > technique > immensely. It's a free download from his website. The link is > http://www.adios.co.uk/trom.htm and the warm-up routine is available at > the > bottom of the page. Shame it's free, I could've touched Adrian for 10%! I'm pleased it works for you too, Keith. I never do any serious practice. This warm-up takes only 10 minutes of my time before I leave home for a gig or rehearsal, and I love to watch the TV screen wobble at different frequencies when it takes me into the pedal register. I guess it's entertaining as well as a useful chops massage. I'd gladly pay your commission, Keith, but the computer says no. Cheers, A. ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 7:03:49 -0800 From: Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: Tom Izzo Cc: Trombone-L List , Wayne Dyess Message-ID: <31598501.1173366229763.JavaMail.root@web14.mail.adelphia.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Most of the players 'round these parts tune the F attachment to C, including the Bass players, as they all play F in Gb 2. I'm not of that school. I tune my tenors and basses to F. It is such a no-brainer to me, because you have unlimited tuning room on C, and - for me - it's easy to stop the slide there. Tune to C, you lose a note. Tune to F, you've got all possibilities. I will fess up that I pull out to C for the G-C glisses in the Hary Janos, so I can get a relatively solid G in F 7+. I might also on my Olds Bass - no E-pull - to get at the occasional C, but I don't really use it much yet. Neither does my YSL-356G have the E pull option. And I don't have the Gb option on bass - I play dependant. My big tenors both have E pulls. As some say, your mileage may vary... J.c. ---- Tom Izzo wrote: > Walter, > > --- Wayne Dyess wrote: > > > Actually, I don't know of any players who tune their > > F attachment on > > the C. > > > > It ain't called the "F" attachment for nuttin', ya > > know. Like why is > > it a Bb trombone? Do we tune best on an "A"? I > > think not. > > > > Well................. > > I tune my Tenor's F attach to C (I use more C's than > low F's on Tenor). > I tune by Bass' F attach to F (more need for lower > notes on Bass). > > Of course it also helps to have a second valve too > (and in my case a C valve) on Bassi. > [But that's a whole 'nother subject!!!!] > > > Tom > > > > > > > Tom Izzo > Principal Trombonist, Bristol Renaissance Faire; > Bass Trombonist, West Suburban Symphony Orchestra; > Founding Director, The Naperville Area Trombone Ensemble; > Alto/Tenor/Bass/Contrabass Trombones, Tubas, Euphonium, Bass Trumpet, Electric Bass, Timpani & Percussion. > http://www.Geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/7875/ > (630) 858-7832 > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. > Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 09:22:51 -0600 From: "Eric Edwards" Subject: [Trombone-l] FW: How to learn about F attachment To: "Trombone-L" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Speaking of the Hary Janos. Anybody have a source for the bass trombone part or an excerpt? I think I tried Hickey's before, can't remember if they have it or not. Thanks! Eric Eric, Leandra, Sara, Jared & Lily Edwards "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price has faded" -----Original Message----- From: trombone-l-bounces@server5.samford.edu [mailto:trombone-l-bounces@server5.samford.edu]On Behalf Of thetubameister@adelphia.net Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 9:04 AM To: Tom Izzo Cc: Trombone-L List; Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment Most of the players 'round these parts tune the F attachment to C, including the Bass players, as they all play F in Gb 2. I'm not of that school. I tune my tenors and basses to F. It is such a no-brainer to me, because you have unlimited tuning room on C, and - for me - it's easy to stop the slide there. Tune to C, you lose a note. Tune to F, you've got all possibilities. I will fess up that I pull out to C for the G-C glisses in the Hary Janos, so I can get a relatively solid G in F 7+. I might also on my Olds Bass - no E-pull - to get at the occasional C, but I don't really use it much yet. Neither does my YSL-356G have the E pull option. And I don't have the Gb option on bass - I play dependant. My big tenors both have E pulls. As some say, your mileage may vary... J.c. ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 10:18:36 -0500 From: Tom Gibson Subject: [Trombone-l] (no subject) To: Nancy Baker , Tom Matta , Wes Funderburk , Eric Alexander , Lee Watts , Bryan Lokey , Rob Foster , Scott McBride , post to BoneList Message-ID: <12D2AA74-A084-42A9-8F5E-E2567997A092@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Friends, Sad news. Chris was one of a kind....he will be missed: Funeral services for Dr. Chris Culver will be held Saturday, March 10th at 11 a.m. in Christ Church, 61 East Main Street, Oyster Bay. A reception will follow in the parish hall. Christ Church is 200 yards east of Rt. 106 on East Main Street. Parking is available in the library parking lot. The telephone number at the church is (516) 922-6377. All of us in the Department of Music extend our condolences, prayers and support to his family. Here's more about this amazing guy: http://www.cwpost.liu.edu/cwis/cwp/pr/press/2007/35.html Dr. Tom Gibson tom@trombonelessons.com Visit me at iTunes: Trombonelessons.com Video Podcasts (or just seacrh "trombone lessons" at the iTunes store) ------------------------------ Message: 21 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 08:02:30 -0800 From: ALEX ILES Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Intonation To: "trombone-list Trombone'" , Noreen Harris-Baer Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Hi all, What I am writing here is not meant as a flame against any of the excellent and useful ideas outlined so far. I am just a little concerned with how some of this information gets used. I think some people confuse concepts like those described by Mr. Leuba with what good intonation actually sounds like. I have seen a few too many players substitute some good theories and concepts for the information their ears provide. I am afraid, many well-intentioned players are looking for a tangible, quick solution for themselves [OR their students]. I have seen trombone parts where every note in a chorale has little arrows above every note indicating which way to adjust that note! Are they listening or are they thinking about intonation? Theory [even good theory] is not a total substitute for good listening. There is a lot more to playing something in tune than just adjusting according to the note's theoretical function in a chord. That is just one variable. It helps to know the function of the note in a chord, but knowing that will not make you "right" when you play the note a little sharper or flatter. Where is the chord going? How is it voiced? What is the dynamic? How is the section balanced dynamically? What kind of timbre are you going for as a group? These things [and many more] all affect a player's intonation choices too. The acoustics of the instrument also affect pitch [and that even varies from instrument to instrument, player to player]. Temperature affects pitch [sometimes differently for different partials]. And different instruments respond differently to temperature...when it's warm, brass tend to become sharp, strings tend to go flat. Both have to adjust differently. How a group tunes up also affects pitch. You can have the best laid plan for how you are going to lower and raise certain notes, but that plan will be shattered by a really hot stage and an oboist with a bad reed that lays out an A a couple cents higher than yesterday. This is all too much too think about on the fly!! What to do!? First, I believe you learn how to play in tune by recognizing what "in tune" actually sounds like. Listen to groups and players that do play in tune together. Get that sound in your head. Then you have to find and try to play with players who play in tune. That might be a private teacher or just a really good player. [Jeff Reynolds also provides his students the simple sage advice..."If you want to get better, you have to play with players who play better than you."!] You eventually start the lifelong journey of discovering the "feel" of what "in tune" can be. You learn how to adjust to your surroundings and what if feels like to have someone adjust to you. The more clear and vivid this mental picture [based on actual sensory experience, rather than just theory], the better chance you have of learning to play more in tune on any given day. Tuners can help--to a point, in my experience. Good for learning how you hear intervals and how you play to a fixed pitch [like A=440]. But they too only provide a one dimensional answer to a three dimensional question. Only one part of the whole picture. The players I observe who rigidly adhere to too many theoretical concepts... [to borrow from Eastern philosophy]... "confuse the map for the journey". I agree with Noreen [hi Noreen!!] and highly recommend Chris Leuba's book. Very well written and well thought out. But use with caution!!...Like any book, it provides only ONE part of the big picture. Once you play a note, your senses [particularly hearing!] are the final source for how to adjust a note up or down. Best wishes, LX On Mar 8, 2007, at 4:55 AM, Noreen Harris-Baer wrote: > When I was a student of Jeff Reynolds, he was all > about the exact concept you are writing about. He > recommended a good book to me by Chris Leuba (formerly > of the Chicago Symphony) called "A Study In Musical > Intonation". I saw it for sale on Cherry Classics: > > https://www.cherry-classics.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/CCMusic.woa/wa/ > brassSheetMusic > > Noreen Baer > > --- Keith Marr wrote: > >> As the F attachment thread has migrated onto the >> subject of tuning I would like to elaborate on >> what's already been said. >> >> Intonation is not just a case of knowing the slide >> position to be in tune with your colleagues, i.e. >> the position you use on the slide will not always be >> the same for the same note. >> >> Take for example, as I've noticed, the brass >> ensemble at the end of the first movement of >> Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony which I am playing for >> Saturday (for those without the music that's the bit >> where the strings start playing a pizzicato downward >> scale, quavers on the beat): >> >> The 3rd trombone at bars 336-337 is the same as at >> 338-339, a bar of Es (third space bass clef) to the >> F# above it. I have to play the second F# slightly >> sharper than the first because of the change in the >> first trombone and trumpet part. They come down from >> an E (top line tenor clef) to the D first time and D >> to D# the second time. The second trombone goes from >> G (second space tenor clef) to B both times and I >> would be interested to ask the second player (we've >> not yet met) if they experience anything similar. >> >> The section's done a little intonation practice from >> time to time and we find that the third of the chord >> has to be sharper rising to it than lowering to it >> (hope I've expressed that intelligibly). If you have >> a section you play with regularly try playing triads >> and going from major to minor and back again. Take >> it in turns to play the third of the chord and play >> the first and second inversions as well. You will >> notice a small but significant difference in the >> position on the slide that you use for the new note >> each time. >> >> I remember seeing some intonation studies for >> trombone sections (+tuba) and using them on one >> occasion but I sadly can't remember who they were >> produced and published by or I would buy them. >> >> So playing in tune is probably the toughest thing we >> have to do in orchestra playing, especially as even >> the quietest entry is so noticeable when you playing >> with strings and woodwinds. >> >> twopence worth >> >> Cheers! >> >> Keith in Bb/F/D >> Bass Trombone >> St Albans Symphony Orchestra >> North Herts Big Band >> _______________________________________________ >> Trombone-l mailing list >> Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >> > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l >> > > > Dr. Noreen Harris Baer > Baer Tracks Music > H-(845)510-4127 > C-(845)558-6342 > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _____________ > No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > ------------------------------ Message: 22 Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 16:57:04 +0000 From: basstrb3@comcast.net Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] FW: How to learn about F attachment To: "Eric Edwards" , "Trombone-L" Message-ID: <030820071657.17209.45F0406000079572000043392209229927CC0D9D9B9C9C0E0D@comcast.net> Tromboneexcerpts.com - if I don't have it right, you can google it - there are two excerpts there for bass trombone... Phil Brink -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Eric Edwards" > Speaking of the Hary Janos. > Anybody have a source for the bass trombone part or an excerpt? > I think I tried Hickey's before, can't remember if they have it or not. > > > Thanks! > Eric > > > Eric, Leandra, Sara, Jared & Lily > Edwards > "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low > price has faded" > > -----Original Message----- > From: trombone-l-bounces@server5.samford.edu > [mailto:trombone-l-bounces@server5.samford.edu]On Behalf Of > thetubameister@adelphia.net > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 9:04 AM > To: Tom Izzo > Cc: Trombone-L List; Wayne Dyess > Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment > > Most of the players 'round these parts tune the F attachment to C, including > the Bass players, as they all play F in Gb 2. > > I'm not of that school. I tune my tenors and basses to F. It is such a > no-brainer to me, because you have unlimited tuning room on C, and - for > me - it's easy to stop the slide there. Tune to C, you lose a note. Tune > to F, you've got all possibilities. > > I will fess up that I pull out to C for the G-C glisses in the Hary Janos, > so I can get a relatively solid G in F 7+. I might also on my Olds Bass - > no E-pull - to get at the occasional C, but I don't really use it much yet. > Neither does my YSL-356G have the E pull option. And I don't have the Gb > option on bass - I play dependant. My big tenors both have E pulls. > > As some say, your mileage may vary... > > J.c. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 23 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 12:00:48 -0500 From: sabutin Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Intonation (Or...I think not, therefore I am.) To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Alex wrote: >First, I believe you learn how to play in tune by recognizing what "in >tune" actually sounds like. OOOOoooo!!! There it is!!! Tuners, metronomes, synthesizers, multitracking...all the paraphernalia of modern music production and academia...are just substitutes for real knowledge and experience. Artificial flavors that DO NOT GET YOU THERE. Useful in a pinch, but non-nourishing. Relatively ineffective substitutes for experience, attention and listening. We all have to make a decision. Are we simply producing music or are we trying to become deeper artists and craftsmen? If we are simply producing music, then sure. Use a tuner to tell you what is mathematically correct. In fact...use a pitch regulator that AUTOMATICALLY tunes up every note. This is very common in the commercial recording of bad singers. Sure. Practice with a metronome 100% of the time. You'll be SO rhythmically perfect that you won't be able to phrase. Sure...make sure that every rhythm you play is perfectly notatable in Western European notation. It'll make it SO much easier for future generations of academics to transcribe your playing. Although they won't really have to do that because by then there will be computer programs that will do the transcribing FOR them. With directions on them that say "DO NOT use this program to transcribe outlaw musicians like Louis Armstrong and Charlie Parker, because your computer will self-destruct trying to shoehorn their rhythms and notes into its mathematical parameters." >Listen to groups and players that do play >in tune together. Get that sound in your head. Yup. Magic words in that phrase? Listen Sound and Head (Might as well add Body and Soul to that list. In the key of Db. Also Better Git It In Your Soul. In the key of Mingus.) >---snip--- [Jeff Reynolds also provides his >students the simple sage advice..."If you want to get better, you have >to play with players who play better than you."!] Yup. "Good intonation", like musicality of every sort, can only be acquired by personal exposure to it at the highest levels you can reach. You know how a magnetized piece of iron can be used to magnetize another piece that is not yet magnetized? By rubbing the two together? Yup. Like that. Bet on it. One rehearsal playing with someone like Bobby Rodriguez (The man who really invented modern Latin bass playing.) is worth 100 years of metronomes. LIVING time, on a level that I cannot even BEGIN to describe. One successful unison with someone like Jim Knepper or Thad Jones will teach you more about sound, pitch and time than all the tuners ever built. IF you have the ears to hear. As we all do, pretty much. If we didn't, we wouldn't be on this list in the first place because we would have been banned from Middle School band at 12 years of age. But in order to hear...YOU HAVE TO LISTEN. And tuners do not teach you how to listen. They teach you how to think. You know that old line..."He's so dumb he can't walk and chew gum at the same time?" Well I'm here to tell you that we are ALL "too dumb" to think and make music at the same time. You can shift back and forth from one mode to the other...we all have to do that as performers, if only to figure out where that damned coda sign is or whether we are coming up to the bridge of a tune or not, etc...but "think" and "play"? I think not. > You eventually start >the lifelong journey of discovering the "feel" of what "in tune" can >be. "Feel". NOT "think". Too many variables to "think" about pitch. I mean...if you know that the oboe player is generally sharp (Aren't they all?) you can get a head start on that upcoming passage in octaves, but...HOW sharp? You can only react. And reaction is slowed by thought. Or...here you are improvising at a really fast tempo. Say MM=220. There is a G7(#9 b13) in the last two beats of a bar. By the time you "think" that name...you're already past the chord. UH oh!!! What NOW!!!??? You have to hear it. Perhaps abstract it as part of a longer harmonic sequence or tonality. But "think"? Once again...I think not. > You learn how to adjust to your surroundings and what if feels like >to have someone adjust to you. The more clear and vivid this mental >picture [based on actual sensory experience, rather than just theory], >the better chance you have of learning to play more in tune on any >given day. Perfect. > >Tuners can help--to a point, in my experience. Good for learning how >you hear intervals and how you play to a fixed pitch [like A=440]. But >they too only provide a one dimensional answer to a three dimensional >question. Only one part of the whole picture. Is there such a thing as "more" perfect? > >The players I observe who rigidly adhere to too many theoretical >concepts... [to borrow from Eastern philosophy]... "confuse the map for >the journey". Yup. And they get lost a lot, too. Sir Lostalot and his trusty squires, Tuna and 'Nome > >I agree with Noreen [hi Noreen!!] and highly recommend Chris Leuba's >book. Very well written and well thought out. But use with >caution!!...Like any book, it provides only ONE part of the big >picture. Once you play a note, your senses [particularly hearing!] are >the final source for how to adjust a note up or down. > >Best wishes, > >LX Alex... YESSSSS!!!! Words from a real pro. If I didn't already know how well you play, this little missive would be all I needed to hear. Thank you. See ya somewhere... (Maybe in LA during the time the Mingus Epitaph thing is there?) Wherever. Later... Sam ------------------------------ Message: 24 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 09:22:43 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Izzo Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: Adrian Drover , "'Wayne Dyess'" , "'Walter Barrett'" Cc: 'Trombone-L List' Message-ID: <299624.24109.qm@web52709.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Adrian, --- Adrian Drover wrote: > > I wrote: > > > > I tune my Tenor's F attach to C (I use more C's > than > > low F's on Tenor). > > I tune by Bass' F attach to F (more need for lower > > notes on Bass). > Adrian replied: > > I guess I'm just too lazy to worry 'bout tuning my F > slide. I just play my > Fs and Cs in 2nd position on the Gb valve. I tend > to avoid playing in 1st > position a lot these days, yet I also use the Gb > valve to avoid diving out > the 5th position. I reckon that Gb valve is the > best accessory I got for my > 'bone. Sounds freer than the F slide on my horn > too. Except that not all Bass 2nd valves are tuned to Gb (inline). Some are inline G, some are dependant D or Db, mine is a dependant C. But the original inquisitor was asking about a single F slide & for Tenor purposes. Tom Tom Izzo Principal Trombonist, Bristol Renaissance Faire; Bass Trombonist, West Suburban Symphony Orchestra; Founding Director, The Naperville Area Trombone Ensemble; Alto/Tenor/Bass/Contrabass Trombones, Tubas, Euphonium, Bass Trumpet, Electric Bass, Timpani & Percussion. http://www.Geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/7875/ (630) 858-7832 ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 ------------------------------ Message: 25 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 09:38:38 -0800 (PST) From: Jason Smith Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] FW: How to learn about F attachment To: basstrb3@comcast.net, bone list Message-ID: <540200.42603.qm@web35011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 for what its worth it's http://www.tromboneexcerpts.org/ .org not .com and this is a awesome site thanks for sending --- basstrb3@comcast.net wrote: > Tromboneexcerpts.com - if I don't have it right, you > can google it - there are two excerpts there for > bass trombone... > > Phil Brink > -------------- Original message > ---------------------- > From: "Eric Edwards" > > Speaking of the Hary Janos. > > Anybody have a source for the bass trombone part > or an excerpt? > > I think I tried Hickey's before, can't remember if > they have it or not. > > > > > > Thanks! > > Eric > > > > > > Eric, Leandra, Sara, Jared & Lily > > Edwards > > "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after > the sweetness of low > > price has faded" > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: trombone-l-bounces@server5.samford.edu > > [mailto:trombone-l-bounces@server5.samford.edu]On > Behalf Of > > thetubameister@adelphia.net > > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 9:04 AM > > To: Tom Izzo > > Cc: Trombone-L List; Wayne Dyess > > Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F > attachment > > > > Most of the players 'round these parts tune the F > attachment to C, including > > the Bass players, as they all play F in Gb 2. > > > > I'm not of that school. I tune my tenors and > basses to F. It is such a > > no-brainer to me, because you have unlimited > tuning room on C, and - for > > me - it's easy to stop the slide there. Tune to > C, you lose a note. Tune > > to F, you've got all possibilities. > > > > I will fess up that I pull out to C for the G-C > glisses in the Hary Janos, > > so I can get a relatively solid G in F 7+. I > might also on my Olds Bass - > > no E-pull - to get at the occasional C, but I > don't really use it much yet. > > Neither does my YSL-356G have the E pull option. > And I don't have the Gb > > option on bass - I play dependant. My big tenors > both have E pulls. > > > > As some say, your mileage may vary... > > > > J.c. > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Trombone-l mailing list > > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > > > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > Jason Smith www.thebandroomtx.com www.concerttimeusa.com www.pershingparkbaptist.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l End of Trombone-l Digest, Vol 26, Issue 8 *****************************************