Subject: Trombone-l Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7 Date: Wednesday, March 7, 2007 12:00 PM From: trombone-l-request@maillists.samford.edu Reply-To: trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu To: Conversation: Trombone-l Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7 Send Trombone-l mailing list submissions to trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to trombone-l-request@maillists.samford.edu You can reach the person managing the list at trombone-l-owner@maillists.samford.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Trombone-l digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Fw: Broadway shows question (basstrb3@comcast.net) 2. Re: Repair person in San Jose (Gary Sloane) 3. How to learn about F attachment (John A. Vieth) 4. Re: How to learn about F attachment (jscot@ucalgary.ca) 5. Re: How to learn about F attachment (eliezer aharoni) 6. Dave Taylor/Sam Burtis dual masterclass in LA, 5/15 or 16. Maybe. (sabutin) 7. Re: Dave Taylor/Sam Burtis dual masterclass in LA, 5/15 or 16. Maybe. (Chris Tune) 8. Re: Dave Taylor/Sam Burtis dual masterclass in LA. New date. (sabutin) 9. Re: How to learn about F attachment (Howard Spindel) 10. Re: Trombone is cool because it is simple (Howard Spindel) 11. Re: How to learn about F attachment (Walter Barrett) 12. Re: How to learn about F attachment (John A. Vieth) 13. Re: Dave Taylor/Sam Burtis dual masterclass in LA, 5/17. Maybe. (sabutin) 14. Re: Dave Taylor/Sam Burtis dual masterclass in LA, 5/17. Maybe. (sabutin) 15. Band Music parts (Josh Kane) 16. Re: How to learn about F attachment (Wayne Dyess) 17. Re: Trombone is cool because it is simple (Adrian Drover) 18. Re: How to learn about F attachment (Gabriel Langfur) 19. Re: How to learn about F attachment (Roger Hecht) 20. Re: How to learn about F attachment (Michael D McLemore) 21. Re: How to learn about F attachment (Simon Bailey) 22. Re: How to learn about F attachment (Denny Seifried) 23. Tuning notes (Earl Needham) 24. Re: How to learn about F attachment (Roger Carmichael) 25. Re: How to learn about F attachment (Josh Kane) 26. Tuning the F attachment. (Dean Hubbard) 27. Re: Tuning the F attachment. (sabutin) 28. Re: How to learn about F attachment (Walter Barrett) 29. Re: Tuning notes (clayton murphy) 30. Re: How to learn about F attachment (Keith Marr) 31. Intonation (Keith Marr) 32. Re: Intonation (Delbert Pakiser) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 18:02:43 +0000 From: basstrb3@comcast.net Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Fw: Broadway shows question To: "bvbkalwas" , "Trombone-L" Message-ID: <030620071802.16762.45EDACC3000AE0B90000417A2200761438CC0D9D9B9C9C0E0D@comcast.net> Playing Wicked here in Chicago, the book uses one trombone doubling tenor and bass. The New York [non-tour] book uses two, tenor and bass separately... Phil Brink -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "bvbkalwas" > > > > When Sweet Charity was in Rochester last month, it used two trombones, one > > tenor and one bass. No doubles. Chicago, when it has been through used > > two bones, one with an f-attachment. Bass and tuba usually double, > > although I know in some cities where that has not been possible, they > > split out the tuba book so it is its own entity. Can't help with the > > rest. > > > > Bob Kalwas > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Eric & Candice Swanson" > > To: "trombone-L" > > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 11:07 AM > > Subject: [Trombone-l] Broadway shows question > > > > > >> Gang, > >> > >> It's that time of year again. I know what shows are coming to Dallas, > >> but I don't know the instrumentation so I don't know which ones I'll be > >> needed on. Anybody playing the current national tours of these shows? > >> Can you help me out with the low brass instrumentation/doubles? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Eric Swanson > >> > >> > >> > >> Wicked > >> Wonderful Town > >> Camelot > >> Chicago > >> Spamalot > >> Sweet Charity (with Molly Ringwald) > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Trombone-l mailing list > >> Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > >> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 13:09:53 -0800 (PST) From: Gary Sloane Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Repair person in San Jose To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <20070306210953.39736.qmail@web83602.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 I usually drive anything in need of repair up to Dick Akright in Oakland -- I think it's worth the effort -- but there's also Larry Souza, at Hornucopia in San Carlos and, for slide work, Gary Drumn in Millbrae. For more serious repair work, don't forget The Horn Shop in Fresno. Also, far, far from San Jose, Zig Kanstul will occasionally agree to have one of his workmen do some repair work, for instance, if you have an old horn plated. Top notch! Gary Jeff Thompson wrote: Speaking of respected trombone repair persons, can someone recommend a good repair person near San Jose, California? I could take my horn up to San Francisco or Oakland, but would prefer to go a little closer to home. Regards, Jeff Thompson ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 16:48:30 -0600 From: "John A. Vieth" Subject: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: Message-ID: <200703062248.l26MmUDS026169@msa1-mx.centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I have a Yamaha Y-6XX trombone with F attachment that I play in a community band. This is my first trombone with an F attachment. I would like to learn more about using the F attachment. There is no documentation for the F attachment in any of my basic lesson books. Can anyone recommend an online resource or book so that I can learn how to use this thing? I assume the purpose is to make certain notes more accessible or convenient, but I would like a very clear explanation of exactly what it does, tips and tricks for using it, dos and don'ts, etc. Please advice, and thank you in advance for any information. - John ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 16:02:15 -0700 (MST) From: jscot@ucalgary.ca Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: "John A. Vieth" Cc: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <1478.68.146.218.18.1173222135.squirrel@68.146.218.18> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 >John - My first book introducing the F attachment was by Allen Ostrander. I believe that it's published by Charles Colin, and the title is something like "An Introduction to Bass Trombone and the F attachment". It's a well written first book for this subject - it has diagrams to help you find out where the trigger positions are, and short etudes that introduce the notes between low "E" and pedal "B flat" as well as some of the new alternate positions that the attachment makes possible. Unfortunately, I loaned the book to a student and never got it back, so I can't confirm the publisher/title exactly. If you can find this book (try Hickeys), it will get you off to a great start. Jim Scott I have a Yamaha Y-6XX trombone with F attachment that I play in a > community > band. This is my first trombone with an F attachment. I would like to > learn more about using the F attachment. There is no documentation for > the > F attachment in any of my basic lesson books. Can anyone recommend an > online resource or book so that I can learn how to use this thing? I > assume > the purpose is to make certain notes more accessible or convenient, but I > would like a very clear explanation of exactly what it does, tips and > tricks > for using it, dos and don'ts, etc. Please advice, and thank you in > advance > for any information. > > - John > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 05:16:43 +0300 From: eanogmus@netvision.net.il (eliezer aharoni) Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi John If you don't mind slightly high price and working hard in the low register, check out my Mew Method for the Modern Bass Trombone. Though intended for the full bass, the first part of the book has everything you need: exercises tailored for each position, charts, text, glissando possibilities etc. >I have a Yamaha Y-6XX trombone with F attachment that I play in a community >band. This is my first trombone with an F attachment. I would like to >learn more about using the F attachment. There is no documentation for the >F attachment in any of my basic lesson books. Can anyone recommend an >online resource or book so that I can learn how to use this thing? I assume >the purpose is to make certain notes more accessible or convenient, but I >would like a very clear explanation of exactly what it does, tips and tricks >for using it, dos and don'ts, etc. Please advice, and thank you in advance >for any information. > >- John > > >_______________________________________________ >Trombone-l mailing list >Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l Eliezer Aharoni Former Bass Trombonist, Jerusalem Symphony Orchestra Author: New Method for the Modern Bass Trombone Avilable from Hickey's (USA) Warwick, MusT (England) POB 4025, Jerusalem ISRAEL 91040 Phone ++972 2 5341333 cell 0524 868866 ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 20:59:18 -0500 From: sabutin Subject: [Trombone-l] Dave Taylor/Sam Burtis dual masterclass in LA, 5/15 or 16. Maybe. To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Maybe. Dave and I will both be in LA for the Mingus Epitaph concert, and we both would love to do it. We've been talking shop for 40 years. May as well make it public. Steve Ferguson says that we could use his store. But...how many people would be interested, and how much would we be able to make on the deal? Gotta break even for hotel/food and cover our lost day of work in NY, at the very least. (The airfare is covered by the Epitaph tour.) Talk to me, folks. I promise you, the Sam and Dave show is a trip. (We've been practicing...) Anyone? S. ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 18:13:23 -0800 From: "Chris Tune" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Dave Taylor/Sam Burtis dual masterclass in LA, 5/15 or 16. Maybe. To: , "sabutin" Message-ID: <01d701c7605e$2faf5300$0200a8c0@athlon2800> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original I'd definitely want to check it out. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "sabutin" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 5:59 PM Subject: [Trombone-l] Dave Taylor/Sam Burtis dual masterclass in LA,5/15 or 16. Maybe. > Maybe. > > Dave and I will both be in LA for the Mingus Epitaph concert, and we > both would love to do it. We've been talking shop for 40 years. May > as well make it public. Steve Ferguson says that we could use his > store. > > But...how many people would be interested, and how much would we be > able to make on the deal? Gotta break even for hotel/food and cover > our lost day of work in NY, at the very least. (The airfare is > covered by the Epitaph tour.) > > Talk to me, folks. > > I promise you, the Sam and Dave show is a trip. > > (We've been practicing...) > > Anyone? > > S. > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 22:06:25 -0500 From: sabutin Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Dave Taylor/Sam Burtis dual masterclass in LA. New date. To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Make that 5/17. Better timing with the tour. Sam >Maybe. > >Dave and I will both be in LA for the Mingus Epitaph concert, and we >both would love to do it. We've been talking shop for 40 years. May >as well make it public. Steve Ferguson says that we could use his >store. > >But...how many people would be interested, and how much would we be >able to make on the deal? Gotta break even for hotel/food and cover >our lost day of work in NY, at the very least. (The airfare is >covered by the Epitaph tour.) > >Talk to me, folks. > >I promise you, the Sam and Dave show is a trip. > >(We've been practicing...) > >Anyone? > >S. >_______________________________________________ >Trombone-l mailing list >Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 19:04:20 -0800 From: Howard Spindel Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20070306185619.04046cf0@sci1.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed John, The Ostrander book is the book that I used when I first got an F-attachment trombone. The editor is Charles Colin, but it's published by "New Sounds in Modern Music". Address of the publisher is: 315 W. 53rd St. NY. Be advised my copy is more than 30 years old, so the publisher and address could have changed. The address is so old that it says "NY 19" instead of a proper zipcode. I found the Ostrander book very useful. As I recall, learning to coordinate the use of the valve and the different positions was no big deal. Most of the effort went into obtaining a good sound through the valve and being able to play the notes in the trigger register. Slightly off topic: I recently purchased a copy of Alan Raph's "The Double Valve Bass Trombone". Haven't worked with the book much yet, but one interesting thing you'll not find in Ostrander is the suggestion that the trigger be used on higher notes than most people use it. I'm not accustomed to using the trigger above C (second space). Have fun with your new Yammie! Howard At 03:02 PM 3/6/2007, jscot@ucalgary.ca wrote: > >John - > >My first book introducing the F attachment was by Allen Ostrander. I >believe that it's published by Charles Colin, and the title is something >like "An Introduction to Bass Trombone and the F attachment". It's a well >written first book for this subject - it has diagrams to help you find out >where the trigger positions are, and short etudes that introduce the notes >between low "E" and pedal "B flat" as well as some of the new alternate >positions that the attachment makes possible. > >Unfortunately, I loaned the book to a student and never got it back, so I >can't confirm the publisher/title exactly. If you can find this book (try >Hickeys), it will get you off to a great start. > >Jim Scott > > > I have a Yamaha Y-6XX trombone with F attachment that I play in a > > community > > band. This is my first trombone with an F attachment. I would like to > > learn more about using the F attachment. There is no documentation for > > the > > F attachment in any of my basic lesson books. Can anyone recommend an > > online resource or book so that I can learn how to use this thing? I > > assume > > the purpose is to make certain notes more accessible or convenient, but I > > would like a very clear explanation of exactly what it does, tips and > > tricks > > for using it, dos and don'ts, etc. Please advice, and thank you in > > advance > > for any information. > > > > - John > > ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 19:13:29 -0800 From: Howard Spindel Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Trombone is cool because it is simple To: "Trombone-L" Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20070306190459.04054ec0@sci1.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:18 AM 3/6/2007, Eric Edwards wrote: >Just look at the software and computer industry, I don't think there's ANY >piece of software written that doesn't have some kind of bug or flaw. >Microshaft is a leading example. In defense of programmers (I was one for 30 years), it's impossible to write an non-trivial program that is bug-free. It's even hard to write bug-free trivial programs - there's an example in a book called "The Psychology of Computer Programmers" of a programmer who brought a 13-line program in for peer review, and the peers were able to find multiple issues with those 13 lines. That is not to say that I don't think that programs could be much better than they are. The bell curve says that few coders are going to be really excellent at their jobs, and that the vast majority of code will be written by mediocre coders - especially at companies that don't recognize this fact and attempt to mitigate it. Just like in trombone players, the difference between an excellent coder and a mediocre one is HUGE! More on topic, I am happy that there are still quite a number of talented trombone repairmen who are dedicated to their professions. John Sandhagen just worked on a slide for me, and it never worked so well before, not even fresh out of the box. In regard to the subject line: I'd say that trombone is cool because it's *mechanically* simple. But the mechanical simplicity throws more onto the shoulders of the player, so I don't think playing the trombone is simpler than other instruments. Howard ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 22:26:01 -0500 From: Walter Barrett Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: Trombone-L List Message-ID: <6DC05A48-E645-428A-813C-517EDE742DE7@optonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Mar 6, 2007, at 5:48 PM, John A. Vieth wrote: > I have a Yamaha Y-6XX trombone with F attachment that I play in a > community > band. This is my first trombone with an F attachment. I would > like to > learn more about using the F attachment. There is no documentation > for the > F attachment in any of my basic lesson books. Can anyone recommend an > online resource or book so that I can learn how to use this thing? > I assume > the purpose is to make certain notes more accessible or convenient, > but I > would like a very clear explanation of exactly what it does, tips > and tricks > for using it, dos and don'ts, etc. Please advice, and thank you in > advance > for any information. > > - John For my students just getting into the F attachment, I like the Lew Gillis "70 Progressive Etudes for Modern Bass Trombone." Don't get scared by the words "bass trombone", most of it stays above the pedal Bb, and he really gets into alternates. Each valve position is introduced one at a time, and he gives you 10 etudes incorporating each new position (plus the ones you've learned already.) Tuning the F attachment usually falls into 2 camps- tune it so 2nd space C is in tune. (One disadvantage to this is that F in Valve 1st is then flat, and you have to play it in 6th all the time.) The other camp says to tune it so that low F is in tune. The 2nd space C will be sharp, but you can bring it down with the handslide, usually about 1/2-3/4 inch out from regular 1st. The disadvantage to this tuning is that low C (2nd leger) is more sharp than when you tune the other way, and has to be lipped down even more. (That low C is usually sharp, no matter which way you tune it. It's just more sharp with the F in tune method.) I like the low F in tune method, myself. I find myself wanting the availability of F in 1st AND 6th. Walter Barrett "so does the sound exist somewhere in your head and you try to find a brass funnel that fits ??? OR do you fit your head into the brass funnel ????????????? " -DJ Kennedy Alto, tenor, bass trombones Bass trumpet, euphonium, tuba Yamaha Artist/Clinician http://www.walterbarrett.com ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 21:34:48 -0600 From: "John A. Vieth" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: "'Walter Barrett'" , "'Trombone-L List'" Message-ID: <200703070334.l273Yl7g007333@msa1-mx.centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks for the advice, everyone! -----Original Message----- From: trombone-l-bounces@maillists.samford.edu [mailto:trombone-l-bounces@maillists.samford.edu] On Behalf Of Walter Barrett Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 9:26 PM To: Trombone-L List Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment On Mar 6, 2007, at 5:48 PM, John A. Vieth wrote: > I have a Yamaha Y-6XX trombone with F attachment that I play in a > community band. This is my first trombone with an F attachment. I > would like to learn more about using the F attachment. There is no > documentation for the F attachment in any of my basic lesson books. > Can anyone recommend an > online resource or book so that I can learn how to use this thing? > I assume > the purpose is to make certain notes more accessible or convenient, > but I would like a very clear explanation of exactly what it does, > tips and tricks for using it, dos and don'ts, etc. Please advice, and > thank you in advance for any information. > > - John For my students just getting into the F attachment, I like the Lew Gillis "70 Progressive Etudes for Modern Bass Trombone." Don't get scared by the words "bass trombone", most of it stays above the pedal Bb, and he really gets into alternates. Each valve position is introduced one at a time, and he gives you 10 etudes incorporating each new position (plus the ones you've learned already.) Tuning the F attachment usually falls into 2 camps- tune it so 2nd space C is in tune. (One disadvantage to this is that F in Valve 1st is then flat, and you have to play it in 6th all the time.) The other camp says to tune it so that low F is in tune. The 2nd space C will be sharp, but you can bring it down with the handslide, usually about 1/2-3/4 inch out from regular 1st. The disadvantage to this tuning is that low C (2nd leger) is more sharp than when you tune the other way, and has to be lipped down even more. (That low C is usually sharp, no matter which way you tune it. It's just more sharp with the F in tune method.) I like the low F in tune method, myself. I find myself wanting the availability of F in 1st AND 6th. Walter Barrett "so does the sound exist somewhere in your head and you try to find a brass funnel that fits ??? OR do you fit your head into the brass funnel ????????????? " -DJ Kennedy Alto, tenor, bass trombones Bass trumpet, euphonium, tuba Yamaha Artist/Clinician http://www.walterbarrett.com _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 22:44:27 -0500 From: sabutin Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Dave Taylor/Sam Burtis dual masterclass in LA, 5/17. Maybe. To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >I'd definitely want to check it out. > >Chris OK. Great. Just in the research stage, now... Anybody else? Sam >----- Original Message ----- From: "sabutin" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 5:59 PM >Subject: [Trombone-l] Dave Taylor/Sam Burtis dual masterclass in >LA,5/15 or 16. Maybe. > >>Maybe. >> >>Dave and I will both be in LA for the Mingus Epitaph concert, and we >>both would love to do it. We've been talking shop for 40 years. May >>as well make it public. Steve Ferguson says that we could use his >>store. >> >>But...how many people would be interested, and how much would we be >>able to make on the deal? Gotta break even for hotel/food and cover >>our lost day of work in NY, at the very least. (The airfare is >>covered by the Epitaph tour.) >> >>Talk to me, folks. >> >>I promise you, the Sam and Dave show is a trip. >> >>(We've been practicing...) >> >>Anyone? >> >>S. >>_______________________________________________ >>Trombone-l mailing list >>Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >>http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 23:36:12 -0500 From: sabutin Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Dave Taylor/Sam Burtis dual masterclass in LA, 5/17. Maybe. To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Hey Sam, > >You might try contacting Bill Booth over @ UCLA...bbooth@ucla.edu. > >He has the best access to putting something like that together and >it would be pretty easy to get there from downtown. > >Alex Thank you, Alex. Sam >--------- >On Mar 6, 2007, at 7:44 PM, sabutin wrote: > >>>I'd definitely want to check it out. >>> >>>Chris >> >> >>OK. Great. >> >>Just in the research stage, now... >> >>Anybody else? >> >>Sam >> >>>----- Original Message ----- From: "sabutin" >>>To: >>>Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 5:59 PM >>>Subject: [Trombone-l] Dave Taylor/Sam Burtis dual masterclass in >>>LA,5/15 or 16. Maybe. >>> >>>>Maybe. >>>> >>>>Dave and I will both be in LA for the Mingus Epitaph concert, and we >>>>both would love to do it. We've been talking shop for 40 years. May >>>>as well make it public. Steve Ferguson says that we could use his >>>>store. >>>> >>>>But...how many people would be interested, and how much would we be >>>>able to make on the deal? Gotta break even for hotel/food and cover >>>>our lost day of work in NY, at the very least. (The airfare is >>>>covered by the Epitaph tour.) >>>> >>>>Talk to me, folks. >>>> >>>>I promise you, the Sam and Dave show is a trip. >>>> >>>>(We've been practicing...) >>>> >>>>Anyone? >>>> >>>>S. >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Trombone-l mailing list >>>>Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >>>>http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Trombone-l mailing list >>Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >>http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 23:43:55 -0500 From: Josh Kane Subject: [Trombone-l] Band Music parts To: List Trombone Message-ID: <020C4C87-A70D-43DE-8621-BB498A61F4F2@cox.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Hey Everyone, I was wondering if anyone has the Tenor Sax part to Fiesta Del Pacifico by Roger Nixon. If anyone has the part could you please send it to me, in a email as a pdf if possible. Thanks, Josh ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 23:32:15 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: Walter Barrett Cc: Trombone-L List Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Actually, I don't know of any players who tune their F attachment on the C. It ain't called the "F" attachment for nuttin', ya know. Like why is it a Bb trombone? Do we tune best on an "A"? I think not. On Mar 6, 2007, at 9:26 PM, Walter Barrett wrote: > > Tuning the F attachment usually falls into 2 camps- tune it so 2nd > space C is in tune. (One disadvantage to this is that F in Valve 1st > is then flat, and you have to play it in 6th all the time.) The other > camp says to tune it so that low F is in tune. The 2nd space C will > be sharp, but you can bring it down with the handslide, usually about > 1/2-3/4 inch out from regular 1st. The disadvantage to this tuning is > that low C (2nd leger) is more sharp than when you tune the other > way, and has to be lipped down even more. (That low C is usually > sharp, no matter which way you tune it. It's just more sharp with the > F in tune method.) > > I like the low F in tune method, myself. I find myself wanting the > availability of F in 1st AND 6th. > > > Walter Barrett ======== But yeah, the "C" will be somewhat sharp. Overtone series... same reason the 2nd line "F" is sharp on the Bb side of the horn. Duh. Al Lube laid out the overtone series great (a fine teacher I had at UofH). All numbers. Physics, but we won't go there. Acoustics... whatever you want to call it. 1 - fundamental. Gotta start somewhere. This pup better be in tune! Pedal Bb. 2 - the octave above. Another "in-tune" note. 3 - here is the F in the staff. It's sharp. Note the odd number. 4 - another Bb. Another note "in-tune." Note the pattern of the Bb's and the numbers 5 - the D above the staff. Flat. Another odd number. 6 - the F above that. An even number, but divide it in half and you get the 3. Also sharp! 7 - Do we really want to go there? VERY flat. Rarely do we want to play the Ab in 1st. Avoid it babe. 8 - The high Bb. Another note "in-tune", if we aren't pinching to get it. 1,2,4,8 = Bb's, in tune. 3,6 = F (and sharp) 5,7 = flat and very flat. It's all a numbers game. Translate those numbers to the F attachment, beginning with the "F" as your fundamental, and you find the C is sharp. It's just gonna be that way. But mercy -- don't TUNE the thing to C. That's another topic of discussion since I hear a LOT of bands tuning their brass to "F". In my book, that's just flat out wrong and their bands don't play well in tune. Can't imagine why. It's a Bb Trombone!!! Sometimes with an F attachment. So tune it that way. My two cents. Rant over. :-) --Wayne Dyess ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 07:56:43 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Trombone is cool because it is simple To: "'Howard Spindel'" , "'Trombone-L'" Message-ID: <000001c7608e$2631f820$0400a8c0@Adrian> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > From: Howard Spindel > > In regard to the subject line: I'd say that trombone is cool because > it's *mechanically* simple. But the mechanical simplicity throws > more onto the shoulders of the player, so I don't think playing the > trombone is simpler than other instruments. True, Howard. It might be mechanically simple, but it certainly ain't acoustically simple. If you were to use just the first 9 harmonics to their full advantage, you would have 9 x 7 = 63 positions to learn (even octaves can be in slightly different positions). Add an F attachment and you have another possible 54 positions. Yet another 54 with a second (Gb) attachment and another 45 when you use both valves simultaneously. The two sense organs on each side of your head and the grey stuff in between are invaluable for detecting and memorizing discrepancies in tuning. The advantage of playing the trombone is that you have the mechanical means to correct such discrepancies. No other wind instrument has. Nor do they have as many alternative ways of producing the same pitch. I guess that's why I like playing the trombone. It's primitively perfect. A. ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 04:27:20 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: Trombone-L List Message-ID: <636591.30120.qm@web31801.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii I do. Mostly they are bass trombone players who commit to playing low Fs on the 2nd valve or in 6th - but I also know tenor players who use 6th for the low F and keep their valve slide long enough to get a usable low C. Gabe ----- Original Message ---- From: Wayne Dyess To: Walter Barrett Cc: Trombone-L List Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2007 12:32:15 AM Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment Actually, I don't know of any players who tune their F attachment on the C. It ain't called the "F" attachment for nuttin', ya know. Like why is it a Bb trombone? Do we tune best on an "A"? I think not. On Mar 6, 2007, at 9:26 PM, Walter Barrett wrote: > > Tuning the F attachment usually falls into 2 camps- tune it so 2nd > space C is in tune. (One disadvantage to this is that F in Valve 1st > is then flat, and you have to play it in 6th all the time.) The other > camp says to tune it so that low F is in tune. The 2nd space C will > be sharp, but you can bring it down with the handslide, usually about > 1/2-3/4 inch out from regular 1st. The disadvantage to this tuning is > that low C (2nd leger) is more sharp than when you tune the other > way, and has to be lipped down even more. (That low C is usually > sharp, no matter which way you tune it. It's just more sharp with the > F in tune method.) > > I like the low F in tune method, myself. I find myself wanting the > availability of F in 1st AND 6th. > > > Walter Barrett ======== But yeah, the "C" will be somewhat sharp. Overtone series... same reason the 2nd line "F" is sharp on the Bb side of the horn. Duh. Al Lube laid out the overtone series great (a fine teacher I had at UofH). All numbers. Physics, but we won't go there. Acoustics... whatever you want to call it. 1 - fundamental. Gotta start somewhere. This pup better be in tune! Pedal Bb. 2 - the octave above. Another "in-tune" note. 3 - here is the F in the staff. It's sharp. Note the odd number. 4 - another Bb. Another note "in-tune." Note the pattern of the Bb's and the numbers 5 - the D above the staff. Flat. Another odd number. 6 - the F above that. An even number, but divide it in half and you get the 3. Also sharp! 7 - Do we really want to go there? VERY flat. Rarely do we want to play the Ab in 1st. Avoid it babe. 8 - The high Bb. Another note "in-tune", if we aren't pinching to get it. 1,2,4,8 = Bb's, in tune. 3,6 = F (and sharp) 5,7 = flat and very flat. It's all a numbers game. Translate those numbers to the F attachment, beginning with the "F" as your fundamental, and you find the C is sharp. It's just gonna be that way. But mercy -- don't TUNE the thing to C. That's another topic of discussion since I hear a LOT of bands tuning their brass to "F". In my book, that's just flat out wrong and their bands don't play well in tune. Can't imagine why. It's a Bb Trombone!!! Sometimes with an F attachment. So tune it that way. My two cents. Rant over. :-) --Wayne Dyess _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 07:47:22 -0500 From: Roger Hecht Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: Trombone-L List Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070307073227.034bdaa8@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5DBF592 At 07:27 AM 3/7/2007, Gabriel Langfur wrote: >I do. Mostly they are bass trombone players who commit to playing >low Fs on the 2nd valve or in 6th - but I also know tenor players >who use 6th for the low F and keep their valve slide long enough to >get a usable low C. > >Gabe Now you know another one. I wish I had a philosophical reason, but it has more to do with old dogs. I was brought up on old Conn 88H's with springs in the slide. I always tuned the C in straight first and pulled in on the rare occasions I played low F in valve first. (I never liked the valve response low F and established the habit long ago of playing it in 6th whenever I could. It always felt like a "real" note out there.) These days no one puts springs in slides (as far as I know). Why not, I wonder. Reliability? Whatever the case, I have long played with the slide tuned in 1st and never bothered to change. >----- Original Message ---- >From: Wayne Dyess >To: Walter Barrett >Cc: Trombone-L List >Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2007 12:32:15 AM >Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment > > >Actually, I don't know of any players who tune their F attachment on >the C. > >It ain't called the "F" attachment for nuttin', ya know. Like why is >it a Bb trombone? Do we tune best on an "A"? I think not. > > >On Mar 6, 2007, at 9:26 PM, Walter Barrett wrote: > > > > Tuning the F attachment usually falls into 2 camps- tune it so 2nd > > space C is in tune. (One disadvantage to this is that F in Valve 1st > > is then flat, and you have to play it in 6th all the time.) The other > > camp says to tune it so that low F is in tune. The 2nd space C will > > be sharp, but you can bring it down with the handslide, usually about > > 1/2-3/4 inch out from regular 1st. The disadvantage to this tuning is > > that low C (2nd leger) is more sharp than when you tune the other > > way, and has to be lipped down even more. (That low C is usually > > sharp, no matter which way you tune it. It's just more sharp with the > > F in tune method.) > > > > I like the low F in tune method, myself. I find myself wanting the > > availability of F in 1st AND 6th. > > > > > > Walter Barrett > >======== > >But yeah, the "C" will be somewhat sharp. Overtone series... same >reason the 2nd line "F" is sharp on the Bb side of the horn. Duh. > >Al Lube laid out the overtone series great (a fine teacher I had at >UofH). All numbers. Physics, but we won't go there. Acoustics... >whatever you want to call it. > >1 - fundamental. Gotta start somewhere. This pup better be in >tune! Pedal Bb. >2 - the octave above. Another "in-tune" note. >3 - here is the F in the staff. It's sharp. Note the odd number. >4 - another Bb. Another note "in-tune." Note the pattern of the >Bb's and the numbers >5 - the D above the staff. Flat. Another odd number. >6 - the F above that. An even number, but divide it in half and you >get the 3. Also sharp! >7 - Do we really want to go there? VERY flat. Rarely do we want to >play the Ab in 1st. Avoid it babe. >8 - The high Bb. Another note "in-tune", if we aren't pinching to >get it. > >1,2,4,8 = Bb's, in tune. >3,6 = F (and sharp) >5,7 = flat and very flat. > > >It's all a numbers game. > >Translate those numbers to the F attachment, beginning with the "F" >as your fundamental, and you find the C is sharp. It's just gonna be >that way. But mercy -- don't TUNE the thing to C. > >That's another topic of discussion since I hear a LOT of bands tuning >their brass to "F". In my book, that's just flat out wrong and their >bands don't play well in tune. Can't imagine why. > >It's a Bb Trombone!!! >Sometimes with an F attachment. > >So tune it that way. > >My two cents. >Rant over. > >:-) >--Wayne Dyess > > > >_______________________________________________ >Trombone-l mailing list >Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l >_______________________________________________ >Trombone-l mailing list >Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.7/712 - Release Date: >3/6/2007 3:42 PM Roger Hecht -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.7/712 - Release Date: 3/6/2007 3:42 PM ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 06:58:42 -0600 From: "Michael D McLemore" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: "'Trombone-L List'" Message-ID: <000001c760b8$57c7cf70$0402a8c0@mdmclemore> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Same here. Not only does it give you a more usable low C, but it keeps the valve positions closer to the Bb positions. To compensate for the f being flat in first, I never play my 1st position "all the way in." I guess it goes back to the old Conns with the springs at the top of the slide. Mike Michael D. McLemore mmclemore@charter.net -----Original Message----- From: trombone-l-bounces@maillists.samford.edu [mailto:trombone-l-bounces@maillists.samford.edu] On Behalf Of Gabriel Langfur Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 6:27 AM To: Trombone-L List Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment I do. Mostly they are bass trombone players who commit to playing low Fs on the 2nd valve or in 6th - but I also know tenor players who use 6th for the low F and keep their valve slide long enough to get a usable low C. Gabe ----- Original Message ---- From: Wayne Dyess To: Walter Barrett Cc: Trombone-L List Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2007 12:32:15 AM Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment Actually, I don't know of any players who tune their F attachment on the C. It ain't called the "F" attachment for nuttin', ya know. Like why is it a Bb trombone? Do we tune best on an "A"? I think not. On Mar 6, 2007, at 9:26 PM, Walter Barrett wrote: > > Tuning the F attachment usually falls into 2 camps- tune it so 2nd > space C is in tune. (One disadvantage to this is that F in Valve 1st > is then flat, and you have to play it in 6th all the time.) The other > camp says to tune it so that low F is in tune. The 2nd space C will > be sharp, but you can bring it down with the handslide, usually about > 1/2-3/4 inch out from regular 1st. The disadvantage to this tuning is > that low C (2nd leger) is more sharp than when you tune the other > way, and has to be lipped down even more. (That low C is usually > sharp, no matter which way you tune it. It's just more sharp with the > F in tune method.) > > I like the low F in tune method, myself. I find myself wanting the > availability of F in 1st AND 6th. > > > Walter Barrett ======== But yeah, the "C" will be somewhat sharp. Overtone series... same reason the 2nd line "F" is sharp on the Bb side of the horn. Duh. Al Lube laid out the overtone series great (a fine teacher I had at UofH). All numbers. Physics, but we won't go there. Acoustics... whatever you want to call it. 1 - fundamental. Gotta start somewhere. This pup better be in tune! Pedal Bb. 2 - the octave above. Another "in-tune" note. 3 - here is the F in the staff. It's sharp. Note the odd number. 4 - another Bb. Another note "in-tune." Note the pattern of the Bb's and the numbers 5 - the D above the staff. Flat. Another odd number. 6 - the F above that. An even number, but divide it in half and you get the 3. Also sharp! 7 - Do we really want to go there? VERY flat. Rarely do we want to play the Ab in 1st. Avoid it babe. 8 - The high Bb. Another note "in-tune", if we aren't pinching to get it. 1,2,4,8 = Bb's, in tune. 3,6 = F (and sharp) 5,7 = flat and very flat. It's all a numbers game. Translate those numbers to the F attachment, beginning with the "F" as your fundamental, and you find the C is sharp. It's just gonna be that way. But mercy -- don't TUNE the thing to C. That's another topic of discussion since I hear a LOT of bands tuning their brass to "F". In my book, that's just flat out wrong and their bands don't play well in tune. Can't imagine why. It's a Bb Trombone!!! Sometimes with an F attachment. So tune it that way. My two cents. Rant over. :-) --Wayne Dyess _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 21 Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 14:01:21 +0100 From: Simon Bailey Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: Trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <20070307130121.GP24832@pc6139-c703.uibk.ac.at> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, Mar 07, 2007 at 07:47:22AM -0500, Roger Hecht wrote: > At 07:27 AM 3/7/2007, Gabriel Langfur wrote: > > >I do. Mostly they are bass trombone players who commit to playing > >low Fs on the 2nd valve or in 6th - but I also know tenor players > >who use 6th for the low F and keep their valve slide long enough to > >get a usable low C. most tenor players around here i know _all_ tune their f-attachment to C in 1st. however, most bass players tune it to F in 1st. my old (as in ex, not age) teacher told me that the C and related alternates are more useful to him as a symphonic tenor player than the F in 1st and an easy low C. i tend to agree with him, and have my tenor trombone still tuned that way, but both bass trombones (single & double valve) tuned to F in 1st. just feels right that way for me. the only exception is when i'm using my tenor trombone as bass in classical music. when i'm thinking bass trombone, i automatically go for F in 1st, when i'm thinking tenor it's C. yah, i'm weird. :) regards, sb -- Simon Bailey Systems Administrator Institut fuer Informatik Universitaet Innsbruck Technikerstrasse 21a/2 A-6020 Innsbruck Tel: +43 (0) 512 507 - 6433 Mob: +43 (0) 664 812 5267 Fax: +43 (0) 512 507 - 2887 http://informatik.uibk.ac.at/ ------------------------------ Message: 22 Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 08:14:22 -0500 From: "Denny Seifried" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: "trombone-list" Message-ID: <001501c760ba$85ed6660$6401a8c0@dseifried1> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Same for me, as I always play the low F's on the Gb side in about 99% of the time and tune my f-attachment to a in-tune C. On my dependent horn, I still have the original springs in my Elkhart 62H and play C with the spring uncompressed and low F, with the springs compressed. I have heard that a repairman can fashion a euphonium/baritone valve spring/springs and convert any trombone to the old system like Conn used on the 88H and their Elkhart bass trombones. Maybe some of the repairmen who hang around here could comment on that! Denny Seifried Bass Trombone-Springfield (OH) Symphony & Dayton Jazz Orchestra Adjunct Trombone-Wittenberg Univ. Dept. of Music Forum Moderator-The Trombone Forum (http://thetromboneforum.org) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D McLemore" To: "'Trombone-L List'" Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 7:58 AM Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment > > Same here. Not only does it give you a more usable low C, but it keeps > the > valve positions closer to the Bb positions. To compensate for the f being > flat in first, I never play my 1st position "all the way in." I guess it > goes back to the old Conns with the springs at the top of the slide. > > Mike > > Michael D. McLemore > mmclemore@charter.net > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: trombone-l-bounces@maillists.samford.edu > [mailto:trombone-l-bounces@maillists.samford.edu] On Behalf Of Gabriel > Langfur > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 6:27 AM > To: Trombone-L List > Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment > > I do. Mostly they are bass trombone players who commit to playing low Fs > on > the 2nd valve or in 6th - but I also know tenor players who use 6th for > the > low F and keep their valve slide long enough to get a usable low C. > > Gabe > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Wayne Dyess > To: Walter Barrett > Cc: Trombone-L List > Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2007 12:32:15 AM > Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment > > > Actually, I don't know of any players who tune their F attachment on > the C. > > It ain't called the "F" attachment for nuttin', ya know. Like why is > it a Bb trombone? Do we tune best on an "A"? I think not. > > > On Mar 6, 2007, at 9:26 PM, Walter Barrett wrote: >> >> Tuning the F attachment usually falls into 2 camps- tune it so 2nd >> space C is in tune. (One disadvantage to this is that F in Valve 1st >> is then flat, and you have to play it in 6th all the time.) The other >> camp says to tune it so that low F is in tune. The 2nd space C will >> be sharp, but you can bring it down with the handslide, usually about >> 1/2-3/4 inch out from regular 1st. The disadvantage to this tuning is >> that low C (2nd leger) is more sharp than when you tune the other >> way, and has to be lipped down even more. (That low C is usually >> sharp, no matter which way you tune it. It's just more sharp with the >> F in tune method.) >> >> I like the low F in tune method, myself. I find myself wanting the >> availability of F in 1st AND 6th. >> >> >> Walter Barrett > > ======== > > But yeah, the "C" will be somewhat sharp. Overtone series... same > reason the 2nd line "F" is sharp on the Bb side of the horn. Duh. > > Al Lube laid out the overtone series great (a fine teacher I had at > UofH). All numbers. Physics, but we won't go there. Acoustics... > whatever you want to call it. > > 1 - fundamental. Gotta start somewhere. This pup better be in > tune! Pedal Bb. > 2 - the octave above. Another "in-tune" note. > 3 - here is the F in the staff. It's sharp. Note the odd number. > 4 - another Bb. Another note "in-tune." Note the pattern of the > Bb's and the numbers > 5 - the D above the staff. Flat. Another odd number. > 6 - the F above that. An even number, but divide it in half and you > get the 3. Also sharp! > 7 - Do we really want to go there? VERY flat. Rarely do we want to > play the Ab in 1st. Avoid it babe. > 8 - The high Bb. Another note "in-tune", if we aren't pinching to > get it. > > 1,2,4,8 = Bb's, in tune. > 3,6 = F (and sharp) > 5,7 = flat and very flat. > > > It's all a numbers game. > > Translate those numbers to the F attachment, beginning with the "F" > as your fundamental, and you find the C is sharp. It's just gonna be > that way. But mercy -- don't TUNE the thing to C. > > That's another topic of discussion since I hear a LOT of bands tuning > their brass to "F". In my book, that's just flat out wrong and their > bands don't play well in tune. Can't imagine why. > > It's a Bb Trombone!!! > Sometimes with an F attachment. > > So tune it that way. > > My two cents. > Rant over. > > :-) > --Wayne Dyess > > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 23 Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 06:37:21 -0700 From: Earl Needham Subject: [Trombone-l] Tuning notes To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:32 PM 3/6/2007, Wayne Dyess wrote: >It ain't called the "F" attachment for nuttin', ya know. Like why is >it a Bb trombone? Do we tune best on an "A"? I think not. Or 4th-line F either! Although tuning to F is quite ingrained in this area, including the universities. Earl KD5XB -- Earl Needham Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cw_bugs ------------------------------ Message: 24 Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 08:38:22 -0500 From: "Roger Carmichael" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: "Wayne Dyess" , "Walter Barrett" Cc: Trombone-L List Message-ID: <380-22007337133822156@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I have a Shires double rotor where the C and the low F are in tune in FIRST position. Perhaps that is a perk for buying a custom-made trombone. > [Original Message] > From: Wayne Dyess > To: Walter Barrett > Cc: Trombone-L List > Date: 3/7/2007 12:34:47 AM > Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment > > Actually, I don't know of any players who tune their F attachment on > the C. > > It ain't called the "F" attachment for nuttin', ya know. Like why is > it a Bb trombone? Do we tune best on an "A"? I think not. > > > On Mar 6, 2007, at 9:26 PM, Walter Barrett wrote: > > > > Tuning the F attachment usually falls into 2 camps- tune it so 2nd > > space C is in tune. (One disadvantage to this is that F in Valve 1st > > is then flat, and you have to play it in 6th all the time.) The other > > camp says to tune it so that low F is in tune. The 2nd space C will > > be sharp, but you can bring it down with the handslide, usually about > > 1/2-3/4 inch out from regular 1st. The disadvantage to this tuning is > > that low C (2nd leger) is more sharp than when you tune the other > > way, and has to be lipped down even more. (That low C is usually > > sharp, no matter which way you tune it. It's just more sharp with the > > F in tune method.) > > > > I like the low F in tune method, myself. I find myself wanting the > > availability of F in 1st AND 6th. > > > > > > Walter Barrett > > ======== > > But yeah, the "C" will be somewhat sharp. Overtone series... same > reason the 2nd line "F" is sharp on the Bb side of the horn. Duh. > > Al Lube laid out the overtone series great (a fine teacher I had at > UofH). All numbers. Physics, but we won't go there. Acoustics... > whatever you want to call it. > > 1 - fundamental. Gotta start somewhere. This pup better be in > tune! Pedal Bb. > 2 - the octave above. Another "in-tune" note. > 3 - here is the F in the staff. It's sharp. Note the odd number. > 4 - another Bb. Another note "in-tune." Note the pattern of the > Bb's and the numbers > 5 - the D above the staff. Flat. Another odd number. > 6 - the F above that. An even number, but divide it in half and you > get the 3. Also sharp! > 7 - Do we really want to go there? VERY flat. Rarely do we want to > play the Ab in 1st. Avoid it babe. > 8 - The high Bb. Another note "in-tune", if we aren't pinching to > get it. > > 1,2,4,8 = Bb's, in tune. > 3,6 = F (and sharp) > 5,7 = flat and very flat. > > > It's all a numbers game. > > Translate those numbers to the F attachment, beginning with the "F" > as your fundamental, and you find the C is sharp. It's just gonna be > that way. But mercy -- don't TUNE the thing to C. > > That's another topic of discussion since I hear a LOT of bands tuning > their brass to "F". In my book, that's just flat out wrong and their > bands don't play well in tune. Can't imagine why. > > It's a Bb Trombone!!! > Sometimes with an F attachment. > > So tune it that way. > > My two cents. > Rant over. > > :-) > --Wayne Dyess > > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 25 Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 08:42:44 -0500 From: Josh Kane Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: rc750@earthlink.net Cc: Trombone-L List , Wayne Dyess Message-ID: <18C81B98-4B72-4415-8290-D23C35DCCCD2@cox.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed I lock the slide in first and then tune F open and then F attachment. This way you know they are in tune. Make all additional little tunings with the slide in your hand. Trigger positions and regular positions aren't supposed to be the same. Josh On Mar 7, 2007, at 8:38 AM, Roger Carmichael wrote: > I have a Shires double rotor where the C and the low F are in tune > in FIRST > position. Perhaps that is a perk for buying a custom-made trombone. > > >> [Original Message] >> From: Wayne Dyess >> To: Walter Barrett >> Cc: Trombone-L List >> Date: 3/7/2007 12:34:47 AM >> Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment >> >> Actually, I don't know of any players who tune their F attachment on >> the C. >> >> It ain't called the "F" attachment for nuttin', ya know. Like why is >> it a Bb trombone? Do we tune best on an "A"? I think not. >> >> >> On Mar 6, 2007, at 9:26 PM, Walter Barrett wrote: >>> >>> Tuning the F attachment usually falls into 2 camps- tune it so 2nd >>> space C is in tune. (One disadvantage to this is that F in Valve 1st >>> is then flat, and you have to play it in 6th all the time.) The >>> other >>> camp says to tune it so that low F is in tune. The 2nd space C will >>> be sharp, but you can bring it down with the handslide, usually >>> about >>> 1/2-3/4 inch out from regular 1st. The disadvantage to this >>> tuning is >>> that low C (2nd leger) is more sharp than when you tune the other >>> way, and has to be lipped down even more. (That low C is usually >>> sharp, no matter which way you tune it. It's just more sharp with >>> the >>> F in tune method.) >>> >>> I like the low F in tune method, myself. I find myself wanting the >>> availability of F in 1st AND 6th. >>> >>> >>> Walter Barrett >> >> ======== >> >> But yeah, the "C" will be somewhat sharp. Overtone series... same >> reason the 2nd line "F" is sharp on the Bb side of the horn. Duh. >> >> Al Lube laid out the overtone series great (a fine teacher I had at >> UofH). All numbers. Physics, but we won't go there. Acoustics... >> whatever you want to call it. >> >> 1 - fundamental. Gotta start somewhere. This pup better be in >> tune! Pedal Bb. >> 2 - the octave above. Another "in-tune" note. >> 3 - here is the F in the staff. It's sharp. Note the odd number. >> 4 - another Bb. Another note "in-tune." Note the pattern of the >> Bb's and the numbers >> 5 - the D above the staff. Flat. Another odd number. >> 6 - the F above that. An even number, but divide it in half and you >> get the 3. Also sharp! >> 7 - Do we really want to go there? VERY flat. Rarely do we want to >> play the Ab in 1st. Avoid it babe. >> 8 - The high Bb. Another note "in-tune", if we aren't pinching to >> get it. >> >> 1,2,4,8 = Bb's, in tune. >> 3,6 = F (and sharp) >> 5,7 = flat and very flat. >> >> >> It's all a numbers game. >> >> Translate those numbers to the F attachment, beginning with the "F" >> as your fundamental, and you find the C is sharp. It's just gonna be >> that way. But mercy -- don't TUNE the thing to C. >> >> That's another topic of discussion since I hear a LOT of bands tuning >> their brass to "F". In my book, that's just flat out wrong and their >> bands don't play well in tune. Can't imagine why. >> >> It's a Bb Trombone!!! >> Sometimes with an F attachment. >> >> So tune it that way. >> >> My two cents. >> Rant over. >> >> :-) >> --Wayne Dyess >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Trombone-l mailing list >> Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 26 Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 05:57:07 -0800 From: Dean Hubbard Subject: [Trombone-l] Tuning the F attachment. To: "TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" I use a single valve bass trombone. I tune so that the Ebs are inline in third position. That way, I have a nice low C. On tenors I tune the valve section to second space C. I lose the low F in first but, it doesn?t sound or lock that great in trigger first. As you can see, any tuning system has its advantages and downsides. Dean Hubbard. ------------------------------ Message: 27 Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 09:45:49 -0500 From: sabutin Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Tuning the F attachment. To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Y'all mean that you can TUNE an F attachment? Well, I'll be danged!!! Every time I try to tune one, things get all...complicated. Seriously, folks... The horn locks progressively less well as you go down into the lower ranges. You can only lip a 5th partial note down about a half step, but the second partial? More like a major third. And it gets even MORE unstable as you get lower. ESPECIALLY for dedicated tenor players who are playing in the trigger and sub-trigger ranges. We all have shifts of some sort, and many of those shifts pitch the instrument slightly differently. So for single trigger players and dependent double valve systems, I strongly recommend tuning the low F in 1st position on the F valve slightly extended if you are going to have any real use for it in positional matters. This allows you to adjust that F up if circumstances demand. For example if there are sharp players in the ensemble with whom you must play and/or you do not not have such a good setting down there after staying in the higher ranges for an appreciable period of time and/or if you have been sitting for 10 minutes and your horn is unexpectedly flat as a result. This means that the low C will be relatively unavailable on the F valve unless you retune, but there it is... I mean...how many times do you have to use the F valve as a position shortener as opposed to using it to play a good low C ? The ratio is about 40 to 1. If that. For independent double valves? (F and Gb being the most common tuning.) It depends on you. I mean...you HAVE a good C in double trigger 3rd position, right? Do you really need one in F trigger 6th? On the other hand...you also have a good F in Gb trigger 2nd. Choose your weapons. Tuning at ten paces. I personally prefer to use all kinds of Gb and F valve options on my independent bass in order to stay in the middle positions as much as possible. The same way I approach the upper ranges. The closer you get to the end of the slide, the fewer positional options you have. Low F, E and Eb on the Gb valve, plus middle of the bass clef C, B and Bb are VERY useful. Even A in Gb trigger 5th on occasion. As are F trigger middle of the bass clef Bb, A and Ab. How facile am I with these options? Not very, yet. But when I get a chance to practice them (Tenor player/bass doubler that i am...) they begin to work just fine. AND...they eliminate much of the need for ANY compromise in tuning the F valve. Tune it wherever you want to tune it and use the Gb valve to ameliorate whatever problems inevitably arise from your choice. It's ALL a compromise... Have fun. Later... S. ------------------------------ Message: 28 Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 10:17:56 -0500 From: Walter Barrett Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: Trombone-L List Message-ID: <2744AE6A-5247-441A-924C-213E6B0ABCD8@optonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Mar 7, 2007, at 7:27 AM, Gabriel Langfur wrote: > I do. Mostly they are bass trombone players who commit to playing > low Fs on the 2nd valve or in 6th - but I also know tenor players > who use 6th for the low F and keep their valve slide long enough to > get a usable low C. > > Gabe > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Wayne Dyess > To: Walter Barrett > Cc: Trombone-L List > Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2007 12:32:15 AM > Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment > > > Actually, I don't know of any players who tune their F attachment on > the C. > > It ain't called the "F" attachment for nuttin', ya know. Like why is > it a Bb trombone? Do we tune best on an "A"? I think not. > Ya see, Wayne, I wasn't making it up! (I'm with you on the tuning, though!) Walter Barrett ""REAL trombonists play EXERCISES. Woodwind players and French Hornists play ETUDES." -Wayne Dyess Alto, tenor, bass trombones Bass trumpet, euphonium, tuba Yamaha Artist/Clinician http://www.walterbarrett.com ------------------------------ Message: 29 Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 09:23:06 -0600 From: "clayton murphy" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Tuning notes To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I find the whole tuning thing rather interesting. Tuning the horn is just one of the things that needs to happen in order to play with others. Just as important as tuning the horn is waking up the ears. I have found that to play, either alone or with others, requires constant listening and adjusting of the handslide for each and every note. And, just when you get that note "in tune" its position in the chord changes and more adjustments need to be made. I remember getting a method book many years ago (I don't recall the author) that had a very detailed position chart. At the time, I was somewhat skeptical of all of the positions shown - it seemed like there was a different position for each note. As I began to listen more closely to my playing, I found that, indeed, this slide chart had quite a bit of validity to it. I also found that each time I played a different horn that the adjustments that I needed to make for each note changed - albeit slightly. As I play and teach now, there are two basics of intonation that need consideration - 1) the intonation problems with the various partials, 2) the intonation adjustments based on your note's position in the chord. I spend a great deal of time with my students having them listen to themselves and self analyzing their playing. We talk about the basic intonation considerations. And, hopefully, we get to the point that it becomes part of what they automatically do and - to borrow Sam's word - they can Fuggedaboudit. I have a pretty good idea where each note is on the horns I play regularly. Because of this, it doesn't matter, really, which note is given for a tuning reference - although there are partials I would prefer not to use to tune the open horn. If, when tuning, the slide lands too far from that spot, it's time to move the tuning slide. Murph _________________________________________________________________ Win a Zuneú÷make MSN¨ your homepage for your chance to win! http://homepage.msn.com/zune?icid=hmetagline ------------------------------ Message: 30 Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 15:26:18 -0000 From: "Keith Marr" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment To: "Trombone-L List" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original As to tuning (bearing in mind I've already warmed up prior to tuning) I find that with my set-up (Bb/F/D dependent bass) I can comfortably tune to A with both valves in use. Then if the A an octave up is slightly sharp with just the F trigger I know I'm in tune with the oboe's note. These days I'm using a Rath R9DST, the above tune-up routine was never reliable with my Holton TR181, so it would seem to vary from set-up to set-up. Back on the original thread the Ostrander book is available on Hickeys list along with Eleizer new method for Bass Bone, which I think I'll be having a look at. So thanks to him for mentioning it. Cheers! Keith in Bb/F/D Bass Trombone St Albans Symphony Orchestra North Herts Big Band ----- Original Message ----- From: "Josh Kane" To: Cc: "Trombone-L List" ; "Wayne Dyess" Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment >I lock the slide in first and then tune F open and then F attachment. > This way you know they are in tune. Make all additional little > tunings with the slide in your hand. Trigger positions and regular > positions aren't supposed to be the same. > > Josh > > On Mar 7, 2007, at 8:38 AM, Roger Carmichael wrote: > >> I have a Shires double rotor where the C and the low F are in tune >> in FIRST >> position. Perhaps that is a perk for buying a custom-made trombone. >> >> >>> [Original Message] >>> From: Wayne Dyess >>> To: Walter Barrett >>> Cc: Trombone-L List >>> Date: 3/7/2007 12:34:47 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] How to learn about F attachment >>> >>> Actually, I don't know of any players who tune their F attachment on >>> the C. >>> >>> It ain't called the "F" attachment for nuttin', ya know. Like why is >>> it a Bb trombone? Do we tune best on an "A"? I think not. >>> >>> >>> On Mar 6, 2007, at 9:26 PM, Walter Barrett wrote: >>>> >>>> Tuning the F attachment usually falls into 2 camps- tune it so 2nd >>>> space C is in tune. (One disadvantage to this is that F in Valve 1st >>>> is then flat, and you have to play it in 6th all the time.) The >>>> other >>>> camp says to tune it so that low F is in tune. The 2nd space C will >>>> be sharp, but you can bring it down with the handslide, usually >>>> about >>>> 1/2-3/4 inch out from regular 1st. The disadvantage to this >>>> tuning is >>>> that low C (2nd leger) is more sharp than when you tune the other >>>> way, and has to be lipped down even more. (That low C is usually >>>> sharp, no matter which way you tune it. It's just more sharp with >>>> the >>>> F in tune method.) >>>> >>>> I like the low F in tune method, myself. I find myself wanting the >>>> availability of F in 1st AND 6th. >>>> >>>> >>>> Walter Barrett >>> >>> ======== >>> >>> But yeah, the "C" will be somewhat sharp. Overtone series... same >>> reason the 2nd line "F" is sharp on the Bb side of the horn. Duh. >>> >>> Al Lube laid out the overtone series great (a fine teacher I had at >>> UofH). All numbers. Physics, but we won't go there. Acoustics... >>> whatever you want to call it. >>> >>> 1 - fundamental. Gotta start somewhere. This pup better be in >>> tune! Pedal Bb. >>> 2 - the octave above. Another "in-tune" note. >>> 3 - here is the F in the staff. It's sharp. Note the odd number. >>> 4 - another Bb. Another note "in-tune." Note the pattern of the >>> Bb's and the numbers >>> 5 - the D above the staff. Flat. Another odd number. >>> 6 - the F above that. An even number, but divide it in half and you >>> get the 3. Also sharp! >>> 7 - Do we really want to go there? VERY flat. Rarely do we want to >>> play the Ab in 1st. Avoid it babe. >>> 8 - The high Bb. Another note "in-tune", if we aren't pinching to >>> get it. >>> >>> 1,2,4,8 = Bb's, in tune. >>> 3,6 = F (and sharp) >>> 5,7 = flat and very flat. >>> >>> >>> It's all a numbers game. >>> >>> Translate those numbers to the F attachment, beginning with the "F" >>> as your fundamental, and you find the C is sharp. It's just gonna be >>> that way. But mercy -- don't TUNE the thing to C. >>> >>> That's another topic of discussion since I hear a LOT of bands tuning >>> their brass to "F". In my book, that's just flat out wrong and their >>> bands don't play well in tune. Can't imagine why. >>> >>> It's a Bb Trombone!!! >>> Sometimes with an F attachment. >>> >>> So tune it that way. >>> >>> My two cents. >>> Rant over. >>> >>> :-) >>> --Wayne Dyess >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Trombone-l mailing list >>> Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >>> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Trombone-l mailing list >> Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > ------------------------------ Message: 31 Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 16:46:05 -0000 From: "Keith Marr" Subject: [Trombone-l] Intonation To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" As the F attachment thread has migrated onto the subject of tuning I would like to elaborate on what's already been said. Intonation is not just a case of knowing the slide position to be in tune with your colleagues, i.e. the position you use on the slide will not always be the same for the same note. Take for example, as I've noticed, the brass ensemble at the end of the first movement of Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony which I am playing for Saturday (for those without the music that's the bit where the strings start playing a pizzicato downward scale, quavers on the beat): The 3rd trombone at bars 336-337 is the same as at 338-339, a bar of Es (third space bass clef) to the F# above it. I have to play the second F# slightly sharper than the first because of the change in the first trombone and trumpet part. They come down from an E (top line tenor clef) to the D first time and D to D# the second time. The second trombone goes from G (second space tenor clef) to B both times and I would be interested to ask the second player (we've not yet met) if they experience anything similar. The section's done a little intonation practice from time to time and we find that the third of the chord has to be sharper rising to it than lowering to it (hope I've expressed that intelligibly). If you have a section you play with regularly try playing triads and going from major to minor and back again. Take it in turns to play the third of the chord and play the first and second inversions as well. You will notice a small but significant difference in the position on the slide that you use for the new note each time. I remember seeing some intonation studies for trombone sections (+tuba) and using them on one occasion but I sadly can't remember who they were produced and published by or I would buy them. So playing in tune is probably the toughest thing we have to do in orchestra playing, especially as even the quietest entry is so noticeable when you playing with strings and woodwinds. twopence worth Cheers! Keith in Bb/F/D Bass Trombone St Albans Symphony Orchestra North Herts Big Band ------------------------------ Message: 32 Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 10:02:21 -0700 From: "Delbert Pakiser" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Intonation To: "'Keith Marr'" , Message-ID: <003401c760da$5f6a2f80$6501010a@delslaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Great information! The guys out on the west coast in "Bones West" have a great statement. "WHERE'S 5TH POSITION? BETWEEN YOUR EARS" Del -----Original Message----- From: trombone-l-bounces@maillists.samford.edu [mailto:trombone-l-bounces@maillists.samford.edu] On Behalf Of Keith Marr Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:46 AM To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Subject: [Trombone-l] Intonation As the F attachment thread has migrated onto the subject of tuning I would like to elaborate on what's already been said. Intonation is not just a case of knowing the slide position to be in tune with your colleagues, i.e. the position you use on the slide will not always be the same for the same note. Take for example, as I've noticed, the brass ensemble at the end of the first movement of Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony which I am playing for Saturday (for those without the music that's the bit where the strings start playing a pizzicato downward scale, quavers on the beat): The 3rd trombone at bars 336-337 is the same as at 338-339, a bar of Es (third space bass clef) to the F# above it. I have to play the second F# slightly sharper than the first because of the change in the first trombone and trumpet part. They come down from an E (top line tenor clef) to the D first time and D to D# the second time. The second trombone goes from G (second space tenor clef) to B both times and I would be interested to ask the second player (we've not yet met) if they experience anything similar. The section's done a little intonation practice from time to time and we find that the third of the chord has to be sharper rising to it than lowering to it (hope I've expressed that intelligibly). If you have a section you play with regularly try playing triads and going from major to minor and back again. Take it in turns to play the third of the chord and play the first and second inversions as well. You will notice a small but significant difference in the position on the slide that you use for the new note each time. I remember seeing some intonation studies for trombone sections (+tuba) and using them on one occasion but I sadly can't remember who they were produced and published by or I would buy them. So playing in tune is probably the toughest thing we have to do in orchestra playing, especially as even the quietest entry is so noticeable when you playing with strings and woodwinds. twopence worth Cheers! Keith in Bb/F/D Bass Trombone St Albans Symphony Orchestra North Herts Big Band _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l End of Trombone-l Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7 *****************************************