Subject: Trombone-l Digest, Vol 14, Issue 3 Date: Friday, March 3, 2006 12:00 PM From: trombone-l-request@maillists.samford.edu Reply-To: trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu To: Conversation: Trombone-l Digest, Vol 14, Issue 3 Send Trombone-l mailing list submissions to trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to trombone-l-request@maillists.samford.edu You can reach the person managing the list at trombone-l-owner@maillists.samford.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Trombone-l digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: musicianship question (Dan Thornton) 2. Re: Musicality (Tom Gibson) 3. Playing musiaclly (Jackie Harris-Stone) 4. Re: Musicality (bonemstr@america.net) 5. Re: Perfect Pitch (Brennan Arceneaux) 6. Re: Playing musiaclly (Chris Tune) 7. Re: Perfect Pitch (George Carr) 8. Re: Playing musiaclly (Chris Tune) 9. Re: Practicing (Daniel Pliskin) 10. Re: Perfect Pitch (Mikel K. Smith) 11. Re: Perfect Pitch (George Carr) 12. Re: musicianship question (Wayne Dyess) 13. Re: musicianship question (Wayne Dyess) 14. Marcus Bonna case on airplanes (Stephen Jones) 15. spirit/excecution, was Re: Perfect Pitch (Jeff Albert) 16. Re: spirit/excecution, was Re: Perfect Pitch (Daryl Burch) 17. Re: Marcus Bonna case on airplanes (Erik Tkal) 18. Re: Playing musiaclly (BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com) 19. Sam Burtis in Holland, 3/12-3/18. Lessons, anyone? (sabutin) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 09:49:22 -0900 From: "Dan Thornton" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question To: "'Jay Sheridan'" , Message-ID: <023001c63e2a$0664dda0$6501a8c0@Dan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have a simple approach to the question of getting a group to perform musically. It comes to the essential difference between "teaching" and "leading." The group can be taught to read the notes and play in tune, but group musicality and expression, I believe, must be led. So the teacher needs at some point to stop being a teacher and start being a conductor. The conductor interprets and leads the group in expression. My test of whether I have made the switch to conducting is whether I can do the piece differently EVERY time (different holds, different volumes, different tempos, different blends). This forces the group to be truly alert and results in an excitement and precision that can't be found any other way. Many musicians never experience this kind of spontaneous, dynamic musicality, and therefore don't understand what we mean when we ask them to be more expressive in a solo. Most who do understand musicality get that understanding from other places than music class, because most of us have been taught to be teachers and have little experience as conductors. (This is why mass band/choir and honors band/choir events are so powerful in the life of young musicians - they get to play under an experienced "conductor.") Listening to great performances is also very helpful. Dan -----Original Message----- From: Jay Sheridan [mailto:jsheridan@usv.k12.oh.us] Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 10:34 AM To: trombone-l@samford.edu Subject: [Trombone-l] musicianship question For all those that do any teaching, how do you teach a student (or group- band/orch etc) to play musically? I have tried several different ways, but none seem to be working. I have a group that can perform rhythmically and in tune, but is lacking musically. The group in question is actually a choir, but I usually think in trombone terms when talking to them anyways. Thanks Jay Sheridan Director of Music Upper Scioto Valley Local School McGuffey, OH jsheridan@usv.k12.oh.us ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 13:52:47 -0500 From: Tom Gibson Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Musicality To: Message-ID: <20060302185247.VGMC2532.ibm68aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I think I've mentioned this before, but a really tremendous resource for teaching and learning musicality is Kenneth Laudermilch's "An Understandable Approach to Musical Expression". I can't recommend it highly enough. It has had a great impact for me and my students. -Dr. Tom Gibson tom@trombonelessons.com ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 11:09:08 -0800 (PST) From: Jackie Harris-Stone Subject: [Trombone-l] Playing musiaclly To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <20060302190908.56033.qmail@web50007.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 A few ideas that have helped for me: (I teach two universities, and a pre-college program, with past experience at various levels from kindergarten to community band) A. dynamic range: You can say "play more dynamics until you're blue in the face", but younger players especially don't learn until they've done it, so I get groups to play a passage as loud as they can and as soft as they can, and then find a piece in the music with dynamic contrast to appy it to, then backing off on the "as loud as you can" to make it tasteful. Then THEY won't settle for bland as easily, though it takes reinforcement. B. Articulation. Practice, and talk about, different stylistic articulations- do they know what a short and long accent look like? And bring out the styles- "in this piece, back off on the whole notes; in this piece, sustain them. Teach them to play lightly- like mini-forte pianos, and you have a great tool in your arsenal. C. Style: I've found in solo playing, really relating moods to talking- an "angry piece" has short phrases, accents, and is generally low and loud- like when you talk angrily- sad pieces are slow, soft, like when you talk sadly. I've done this with kindergarten and 1st grade classes, and they can change a "mary had a little lamb" that's happy to sad or mad or excited or scared by changing articulation, range, dynamics, and speed, so your groups should have no problem! Apply as you wish. B. Rhythmic shape. I loved Mr. Abramson's rhythmic elements at Juilliard, and I pass it on, because it's easily accessible to Jr. highers. Basically, teach them the general shape of rhthym in a bar. Mr. Kleinhammer will disagree with me, but the shape Abramson uses of used of ONE the strongest, 2 the softest, with 3 (4, 5, etc) gradually louder, with a HUGE crescendo from the last beat of the bar to the first makes the most sense to me musically. Then, teach the exceptions. In melodies, longer notes accented notes, the highest note in a phrase, the lowest note in a phrase, notes following jumps greater than a 4th, notes with harmonic tension, ornaments, and syncopations all receive accents (I call it weight when I teach). I teach the longer notes, and higher and lowest notes first, then jumps of more than a fourth. And, the most effective of all, play with them and for them, and play CD's. I currently have three students each place I teach, so to do quartets, I "had" to join in. (Getting paid to play quartets- not to shabby!) I think, especially with my most advanced program, playing with them, especially when I'm talking about style, has helped their musicality more than 100 lectures. Jackie Harris-Stone Bass Trombone, Orquesta Sinfonica de Monterrey Professor of Trombone, Escuela Superior de Musica y Danza, Professor of Low Brass, UANL --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2006 14:53:29 -0500 From: bonemstr@america.net Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Musicality To: Trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <1141329209.44074d39735c7@pop.america.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 And since Tom has now chimed in, y'all need to put his 'Piedmont Trombone Society' quintet on your short list of 'must hear' groups whenever you're in the Big Peach-Atlanta. PTS played at 5 Seasons Brewing Co., an upscale watering hole in suburban N. Atlanta on Fat Tuesday. OUTstanding playing! Each player has a unique improv style and sound and the ensemble work is big, tight and full. I liked Eric Alexander's solo work, and you bass guys will like Lee Watts- the dude can crank down low all night long but never gets out of synch with the pea-shooters on top. THAT'S musicality!! Bob Devine An 'All Shires' family Roswell/Atlanta, GA Quoting Tom Gibson : > I think I've mentioned this before, but a really tremendous resource for > teaching and learning musicality is Kenneth Laudermilch's "An Understandable > Approach to Musical Expression". > I can't recommend it highly enough. It has had a great impact for me and my > students. > > -Dr. Tom Gibson > tom@trombonelessons.com > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2006 13:46:54 -0600 From: Brennan Arceneaux Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Perfect Pitch Cc: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <44074BAE.5070600@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Keith Marr wrote: >I think perfect pitch can be a curse as much as a benefit. I remember >sitting next to a D.Mus at a concert during my degree course and observing >him wincing right through what I took to be a particularly good rendition of >Haydn's Creation. When I got a chance to raise the subject in a subsequent >tutorial he gave as his reason "the whole thing was a little bit sharp" - it >had spoilt his enjoyment of the performance. As we say in the UK "blow that >for a game o' soldiers!". > > Don't you think that musical training in general has that effect on a different level? All the mommas and daddies that go to 6th grade band concerts love their baby's performance while trained musicians wince. It can be hard to just listen to a performance by any group, be it college, high school, professional, and not tear the thing apart. I sometimes envy people with no musical training. Brennan Arceneaux ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 12:24:35 -0800 From: "Chris Tune" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Playing musiaclly To: "Jackie Harris-Stone" , Message-ID: <011701c63e37$53158340$0400a8c0@athlon2800> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Sounds like you teach very much like I do. I've found that students appreciate it if you find interesting material which illustrates what you are conveying. Example: I figured out that the LSO, while playing "The Imperial March" in the movie "The Empire Strikes Back" was doing a perfect example of loud orchestral playing. The trombone section is playing the melody most of the time, and they are in unison. The "real loud" trombone sound (nonetheless, quite "controlled" and impressive) is there and serves as an example of the type of sound a trombone section getst when the music is martial and marked loud, or very loud. So, I transcribed the tune and printed it out so all my students would be able to play it. Also, we spoke about HOW to get this sound. We discussed how there would be a need to actually practice loud. Also, we discussed how this volume level requires really putting some effort into blowing. . . BUT we actually back off somewhat from the point where our tone is now out of control. I pointed out that the more experience you get, the more you are able to "reach out" to very, very loud. . .without going over the cliff into "blatty". The key, of course, is to practice it. Also, regardless of what you are trying to express. . .sound (i.e. playing it for them. . .playing recordings where an orchestra or a player or small group is doing what you are talking about) will really do the trick of establishing a concept. We humans have a tremendous ability to remember sound. It may be true that musicians have a natural aptitude for committing sounds to memory. I know I personally will always look at any kind of sound that has a new, and/or different quality to it. Since I'm reading a book that covers this (Bruce Swedien's "Make Mine Music") I'd also point out that it is important to have available STEREO sound source (of course anything live is perfect. . .but boom boxes come in both mono - i.e. cheap and stereo. . .less cheap). This because humans also are great "localizers" of sound. The direction that sound is coming from is also very important. I especially like this topic. This can help virtually anyone in music--even those not currently playing or teaching, but rather just appreciating (and I HOPE this is the largest group of all. . .). Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jackie Harris-Stone" To: Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 11:09 AM Subject: [Trombone-l] Playing musiaclly >A few ideas that have helped for me: (I teach two universities, and a >pre-college program, with past experience at various levels from >kindergarten to community band) > > > A. dynamic range: > > You can say "play more dynamics until you're blue in the face", but > younger players especially don't learn until they've done it, so I get > groups to play a passage as loud as they can and as soft as they can, and > then find a piece in the music with dynamic contrast to appy it to, then > backing off on the "as loud as you can" to make it tasteful. Then THEY > won't settle for bland as easily, though it takes reinforcement. > > B. Articulation. Practice, and talk about, different stylistic > articulations- do they know what a short and long accent look like? And > bring out the styles- "in this piece, back off on the whole notes; in > this piece, sustain them. Teach them to play lightly- like mini-forte > pianos, and you have a great tool in your arsenal. > > C. Style: I've found in solo playing, really relating moods to talking- > an "angry piece" has short phrases, accents, and is generally low and > loud- like when you talk angrily- sad pieces are slow, soft, like when you > talk sadly. I've done this with kindergarten and 1st grade classes, and > they can change a "mary had a little lamb" that's happy to sad or mad or > excited or scared by changing articulation, range, dynamics, and speed, so > your groups should have no problem! Apply as you wish. > > B. Rhythmic shape. > > I loved Mr. Abramson's rhythmic elements at Juilliard, and I pass it > on, because it's easily accessible to Jr. highers. Basically, teach them > the general shape of rhthym in a bar. Mr. Kleinhammer will disagree with > me, but the shape Abramson uses of used of ONE the strongest, 2 the > softest, with 3 (4, 5, etc) gradually louder, with a HUGE crescendo from > the last beat of the bar to the first makes the most sense to me > musically. > > Then, teach the exceptions. In melodies, longer notes accented notes, > the highest note in a phrase, the lowest note in a phrase, notes following > jumps greater than a 4th, notes with harmonic tension, ornaments, and > syncopations all receive accents (I call it weight when I teach). I teach > the longer notes, and higher and lowest notes first, then jumps of more > than a fourth. > > > And, the most effective of all, play with them and for them, and play > CD's. I currently have three students each place I teach, so to do > quartets, I "had" to join in. (Getting paid to play quartets- not to > shabby!) I think, especially with my most advanced program, playing with > them, especially when I'm talking about style, has helped their musicality > more than 100 lectures. > > > Jackie Harris-Stone > Bass Trombone, Orquesta Sinfonica de Monterrey > Professor of Trombone, Escuela Superior de Musica y Danza, > Professor of Low Brass, UANL > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Mail > Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 15:26:32 -0500 From: "George Carr" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Perfect Pitch To: "Brennan Arceneaux" Cc: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > It can be hard to just listen to a performance by any group, be it > college, high school, professional, and not tear the thing apart. I > sometimes envy people with no musical training. I'm with you there; mistakes, especially, make a way bigger difference to musicians than to untrained listeners: if a musician hears a gaffed note or a pitch problem (or even bigger mistakes, like a missed entrance or a missing fugue voice), it's cause for wincing, while many untrained listeners don't notice, or think it's intentional. Just last week, I was listening to an otherwise wonderful record where the lead trumpet player gaffed the last note of a tune --spYAAAH!! I winced, and rewound the CD to hear whether any other players were startled by this, while my wife hadn't even noticed a mistake, and was just about to remark that the band sounded very clean. So, maybe I'd enjoy the record more if I didn't have the training to spot such tiny mistakes. George ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 12:48:16 -0800 From: "Chris Tune" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Playing musiaclly To: "Chris Tune" , "Jackie Harris-Stone" , Message-ID: <012501c63e3a$a209bbd0$0400a8c0@athlon2800> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Another teaching trick that seems uniquely to be a gift that the (presumeably) more experienced teacher can give the student: Undiscovered alternatives. Say my student is an admirer of one artist in particular or he/she knows about several artists. . .I try to find the ones that they have not thought about yet. I'll explain how I understand these artists do their thing. . maybe what their philosophy is. . .why they might be considered to have merit. To use a Trumpet example: Say my student is a fan of Maynard. I'll point out that they should also check out Doc Severinsen. I'll mention that both players can serve as lead, with Doc leaning more toward the conventional range and not the absolute stratosphere. I'll point out the times when both these players demonstrate all their different skills. We'll listen to some things they might not have already heard and try to apply the lessons to our own development (e.g. if we're just now exploring proper loud playing I might point out that the band we are listening to is alternatively playing very loud and much less loud. . .with equal finesse). If the player already knows about Doc and Maynard maybe I'll play something by Rafael Mendez. I'm trying to expand their vocabulary. . .their appreciation and understanding of the vastness of music and musical style, at the same time I point out the many common elements. You can go on like this over a great time exploring the entire field of music and musical style. You could, for example get into a whole symposium about how trombone players fit into dixieland music. . .I've got just the introduction--a couple of excellent Louis Armstrong DVDs. In it, Teagarden and Trummy Young both show how someone might fit in with Satch. Here again I'd probably show some examples of how these small group players are able to produce loud playing without sounding obnoxious (unless that is the goal). Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Tune" To: "Jackie Harris-Stone" ; Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 12:24 PM Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Playing musiaclly > Sounds like you teach very much like I do. I've found that students > appreciate it if you find interesting material which illustrates what you > are conveying. Example: > > I figured out that the LSO, while playing "The Imperial March" in the > movie > "The Empire Strikes Back" was doing a perfect example of loud orchestral > playing. The trombone section is playing the melody most of the time, and > they are in unison. The "real loud" trombone sound (nonetheless, quite > "controlled" and impressive) is there and serves as an example of the type > of sound a trombone section getst when the music is martial and marked > loud, > or very loud. > > So, I transcribed the tune and printed it out so all my students would be > able to play it. > > Also, we spoke about HOW to get this sound. We discussed how there would > be > a need to actually practice loud. Also, we discussed how this volume > level > requires really putting some effort into blowing. . . BUT we actually back > off somewhat from the point where our tone is now out of control. I > pointed > out that the more experience you get, the more you are able to "reach out" > to very, very loud. . .without going over the cliff into "blatty". The > key, of course, is to practice it. > > Also, regardless of what you are trying to express. . .sound (i.e. playing > it for them. . .playing recordings where an orchestra or a player or small > group is doing what you are talking about) will really do the trick of > establishing a concept. We humans have a tremendous ability to remember > sound. It may be true that musicians have a natural aptitude for > committing > sounds to memory. I know I personally will always look at any kind of > sound > that has a new, and/or different quality to it. > > Since I'm reading a book that covers this (Bruce Swedien's "Make Mine > Music") I'd also point out that it is important to have available STEREO > sound source (of course anything live is perfect. . .but boom boxes come > in > both mono - i.e. cheap and stereo. . .less cheap). This because humans > also > are great "localizers" of sound. The direction that sound is coming from > is > also very important. > > I especially like this topic. This can help virtually anyone in > music--even > those not currently playing or teaching, but rather just appreciating (and > I > HOPE this is the largest group of all. . .). > > Chris > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jackie Harris-Stone" > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 11:09 AM > Subject: [Trombone-l] Playing musiaclly > > >>A few ideas that have helped for me: (I teach two universities, and a >>pre-college program, with past experience at various levels from >>kindergarten to community band) >> >> >> A. dynamic range: >> >> You can say "play more dynamics until you're blue in the face", but >> younger players especially don't learn until they've done it, so I get >> groups to play a passage as loud as they can and as soft as they can, and >> then find a piece in the music with dynamic contrast to appy it to, then >> backing off on the "as loud as you can" to make it tasteful. Then THEY >> won't settle for bland as easily, though it takes reinforcement. >> >> B. Articulation. Practice, and talk about, different stylistic >> articulations- do they know what a short and long accent look like? And >> bring out the styles- "in this piece, back off on the whole notes; in >> this piece, sustain them. Teach them to play lightly- like mini-forte >> pianos, and you have a great tool in your arsenal. >> >> C. Style: I've found in solo playing, really relating moods to talking- >> an "angry piece" has short phrases, accents, and is generally low and >> loud- like when you talk angrily- sad pieces are slow, soft, like when >> you >> talk sadly. I've done this with kindergarten and 1st grade classes, and >> they can change a "mary had a little lamb" that's happy to sad or mad or >> excited or scared by changing articulation, range, dynamics, and speed, >> so >> your groups should have no problem! Apply as you wish. >> >> B. Rhythmic shape. >> >> I loved Mr. Abramson's rhythmic elements at Juilliard, and I pass it >> on, because it's easily accessible to Jr. highers. Basically, teach >> them >> the general shape of rhthym in a bar. Mr. Kleinhammer will disagree with >> me, but the shape Abramson uses of used of ONE the strongest, 2 the >> softest, with 3 (4, 5, etc) gradually louder, with a HUGE crescendo from >> the last beat of the bar to the first makes the most sense to me >> musically. >> >> Then, teach the exceptions. In melodies, longer notes accented notes, >> the highest note in a phrase, the lowest note in a phrase, notes >> following >> jumps greater than a 4th, notes with harmonic tension, ornaments, and >> syncopations all receive accents (I call it weight when I teach). I >> teach >> the longer notes, and higher and lowest notes first, then jumps of more >> than a fourth. >> >> >> And, the most effective of all, play with them and for them, and play >> CD's. I currently have three students each place I teach, so to do >> quartets, I "had" to join in. (Getting paid to play quartets- not to >> shabby!) I think, especially with my most advanced program, playing with >> them, especially when I'm talking about style, has helped their >> musicality >> more than 100 lectures. >> >> >> Jackie Harris-Stone >> Bass Trombone, Orquesta Sinfonica de Monterrey >> Professor of Trombone, Escuela Superior de Musica y Danza, >> Professor of Low Brass, UANL >> >> --------------------------------- >> Yahoo! Mail >> Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. >> _______________________________________________ >> Trombone-l mailing list >> Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2006 20:47:04 +0000 From: "Daniel Pliskin" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Practicing To: Trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >What do you practice? I'm not looking for exercises or routines--more, >what kind of music to you play each day? Do you polish everything you >play to perfection? Do you spend hours sight riding? I mostly improvise or read jazz charts. I generally have something big to work on, something like: Skip that note that makes the phrase youāre in the middle of playing, sound trite. Try playing everything slightly sharp (because I tend to play flat). Work on plunger. Arpeggiate chords up, down or both. Slur everything like a blues player· Then I play and have fun, while keeping that larger goal in mind. I suppose that wounds like Iām not seriously working at anything, but lately, people have started commenting about how lyrically I play. Thatās something Iāve certainly keep in mind, but not something Iāve ćworkedä at. Instead, Iāve had loads of fun. DanP ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2006 15:47:08 -0500 From: "Mikel K. Smith" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Perfect Pitch To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >I'm with you there; mistakes, especially, make a way bigger difference >to musicians than to untrained listeners... There's another side to the issue, though, if you think about it - somewhere you cross the line that separates the tiny imperfections inherent to live music, and that make it sound "alive", and cross into the dead perfection of digital noise. Mikel ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 15:50:51 -0500 From: "George Carr" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Perfect Pitch To: "Mikel K. Smith" Cc: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Unless that's the point; I think lots of the current fascination with electronica and looping is the perfection of it, the total control and unerring repetition. But seriously, you're right; I have a handful of recordings by real musicians that are so clean and technically perfect, they lack any emotive content. No fun to listen to, except as an example of how NOT to be musical. George On 3/2/06, Mikel K. Smith wrote: > >I'm with you there; mistakes, especially, make a way bigger difference > >to musicians than to untrained listeners... > There's another side to the issue, though, if you think about it - somewhere > you cross the line that separates the tiny imperfections inherent to live > music, and that make it sound "alive", and cross into the dead perfection of > digital noise. ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 15:12:01 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question To: dslide13@aol.com Cc: Bone List Message-ID: <6cbd8a4b2287c2376c449f58d1927257@gt.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Exactly. Initially, their reaction is one that sounds mechanical... but eventually they anticipate what you're about to tell them, and become MUSICIANS at some point. Gotta love the light bulb effect. WD On Mar 2, 2006, at 8:57 AM, dslide13@aol.com wrote: > I like this. You're basically walking them through every individual > element of sounding musical. They're probably reacting to your > instructions in a mechanical way, but the hope is that they'll develop > a musical intuition that will eventually allow them to anticipate what > you would normally tell them. > > > David Gibson > trombonist/educator > www.jazzbone.org > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Wayne Dyess > To: Jay Sheridan > Cc: trombone-l@samford.edu > Sent: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 22:57:34 -0600 > Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question > > I have found that most school groups need some direction to sound > musical. I have them write in little things that are not in the > printed music. Hairpins, accents, dynamic contrasts... contouring a > line to follow the melodic content. > > There is great book that was published by Vandercook simply called > "Expression" that lays out a pretty good plan for teaching > musicianship. I don't know if it is still in print, but it sure helped > me when I was first teaching (in those days, jr. high band). The ideas > I learned from that have carried me through my now 30th year of > teaching at the college level... and I still use many of the techniques > presented in the Vandercook paperback. Terrific book. > > Dynamics are given numbers.... 1 the softest... 10 the loudest. A jr. > high band might only get 4 to 7 or 8 with good taste and tone quality. > A high school band should be able to go from 2 to 9. College, the full > range hopefully. That was but one of the techniques used to teach > musicianship. > > Fun topic. > Good luck! > Wayne Dyess > > > On Mar 1, 2006, at 1:34 PM, Jay Sheridan wrote: > >> For all those that do any teaching, how do you teach a student (or >> group- band/orch etc) to play musically? I have tried several >> different ways, but none seem to be working. I have a group that can >> perform rhythmically and in tune, but is lacking musically. The group >> in question is actually a choir, but I usually think in trombone > terms >> when talking to them anyways. >> >> Thanks >> >> Jay Sheridan >> Director of Music >> Upper Scioto Valley Local School >> McGuffey, OH >> jsheridan@usv.k12.oh.us >> _______________________________________________ >> Trombone-l mailing list >> Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l >> >> > > Dr. Wayne Dyess, Professor of Trombone > and Director of Jazz Studies > Lamar University Dept. of Music, Theatre & Dance > P. O. Box 10044 > Beaumont, Texas 77710 > 409-880-8146 > http://lamar.edu/ > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 15:41:22 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question To: dslide13@aol.com Cc: Bone List Message-ID: <0a0203e6142ccce9cb64c6e1185e5ad7@gt.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed I do that, too (opposite to the contour). Good stuff. I also encourage the students (ensembles especially) to bring the written page to LIFE. Don't just play notes & rhythms. Play MUSIC! WD On Mar 2, 2006, at 9:04 AM, dslide13@aol.com wrote: > I hear you. That's sometimes the difficulty of these venues. > > To expand on your idea. I was always encouraged to follow the contour > of the line. When the line ascended, I would crescendo and vice-versa. > This has been a good rule of thumb to teach my students also. But, > once they get the hang of it, I tell them to do the opposite in order > to experience and alternative effect. The results are usually > interesting. Most students experience the epiphany of knowing how to > interact with the written page. They realize that they have some role > in what the audience experiences. It isn't all up to the composer. > But, as Uncle Ben said, "With great power comes great > responsibility."...or something like that. > > > David Gibson > trombonist/educator > www.jazzbone.org > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jay Heltzer > To: dslide13@aol.com; jsheridan@usv.k12.oh.us; trombone-l@samford.edu > Sent: Thu, 02 Mar 2006 09:15:28 -0500 > Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question > > Ok, let me try this again. I found on the simplest level to instruct > musical ideas by starting with dynamics. A phrase can be developed by > any > musician, by applying dynamics to it. Take a B flat scale, put some > hairpins under it, and suddenly it sounds more interesting than the way > it > was played prior to that. > > As for instructing dynamics, start with air speed. Compare it to MPH. > Piano needs 10 mph. Forte needs 60 mph. Etc. > > That?s what I meant. I found that the responses were getting quite > complex, > and thought that a simple answer could guide the discussion in a > specific > direction. > > Jay > >> From: dslide13@aol.com >> Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 21:18:00 -0500 >> To: jhfloyd@earthlink.net, jsheridan@usv.k12.oh.us, > trombone-l@samford.edu >> Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question >> >> Right...and telling that to a student who already doesn't know > anything >> will accomplish what??? >> >> David Gibson >> trombonist/educator >> www.jazzbone.org >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jay Heltzer >> To: Jay Sheridan ; trombone-l@samford.edu >> Sent: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 20:41:34 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question >> >> Idiots guide to playing musically: >> >> Louder and softer. >> >> Any questions? >> >> Jay Heltzer >> >>> From: "Jay Sheridan" >>> Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 14:34:01 -0500 >>> To: >>> Subject: [Trombone-l] musicianship question >>> >>> For all those that do any teaching, how do you teach a student (or >> group- >>> band/orch etc) to play musically? I have tried several different >> ways, but >>> none seem to be working. I have a group that can perform rhythmically >> and in >>> tune, but is lacking musically. The group in question is actually a >> choir, but >>> I usually think in trombone terms when talking to them anyways. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Jay Sheridan >>> Director of Music >>> Upper Scioto Valley Local School >>> McGuffey, OH >>> jsheridan@usv.k12.oh.us >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Trombone-l mailing list >>> Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >>> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Trombone-l mailing list >> Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 17:21:53 -0500 From: "Stephen Jones" Subject: [Trombone-l] Marcus Bonna case on airplanes To: Message-ID: <200603022221.k22MLrGi006625@mx3.umbc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" What's been people's experience getting Marcus Bonna cases on as carry-on? I'm flying Southwest from BWI to Midway and back. Where do I get a copy of the document saying that instruments are legitimate carry-on items? Many thanks. Stephen Jones ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 17:28:40 -0600 From: "Jeff Albert" Subject: [Trombone-l] spirit/excecution, was Re: Perfect Pitch To: "George Carr" Cc: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 3/2/06, George Carr wrote: > > > > I'm with you there; mistakes, especially, make a way bigger difference > to musicians than to untrained listeners: if a musician hears a gaffed > note or a pitch problem (or even bigger mistakes, like a missed > entrance or a missing fugue voice), it's cause for wincing, while many > untrained listeners don't notice, or think it's intentional. I'm in Chicago this week working with a new group called Lucky 7s. The group is co-led by Jeb Bishop and I, and we each wrote 5 pieces for it, and a couple of other members have contributed stuff. We had long rehearsals on Monday and Tuesday, and out first gig was Tuesday night. Some of the stuff is pretty intricate, andd on the way to the gig Tuesday Jeb and I were discussing our concerns about the bands preparation. I said that spirit can over come excecution for the regular listener. Clean and spirited is better than sloppy and spirited, but what the people really hear is the spirit and the energy and the vibe. Too often we as musicians let the performance distract us from the music. BTW, so of the gig could havee been cleaner, but the peeps dug the spirit. We have more gigs this weekend, check out http://jeffalbbert.com/lucky7s/for info. Jeff ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 15:36:14 -0800 From: Daryl Burch Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] spirit/excecution, was Re: Perfect Pitch To: "Jeff Albert" Cc: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <7e98b43fdf42d8ba107d8f0b8d3934bc@speakeasy.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed It must hard to type while driving... Try this URL: http://www.jeffalbert.com/lucky7s/ Cheers! -D- www.radionoise.com <- Rock star by night www.burchinteractive.com <- Tech-nerd by day #;-) On Mar 2, 2006, at 3:28 PM, Jeff Albert wrote: > On 3/2/06, George Carr wrote: >> >> >> >> I'm with you there; mistakes, especially, make a way bigger difference >> to musicians than to untrained listeners: if a musician hears a gaffed >> note or a pitch problem (or even bigger mistakes, like a missed >> entrance or a missing fugue voice), it's cause for wincing, while many >> untrained listeners don't notice, or think it's intentional. > > > > I'm in Chicago this week working with a new group called Lucky 7s. > The > group is co-led by Jeb Bishop and I, and we each wrote 5 pieces for > it, and > a couple of other members have contributed stuff. We had long > rehearsals on > Monday and Tuesday, and out first gig was Tuesday night. Some of the > stuff > is pretty intricate, andd on the way to the gig Tuesday Jeb and I were > discussing our concerns about the bands preparation. > > I said that spirit can over come excecution for the regular listener. > Clean > and spirited is better than sloppy and spirited, but what the people > really > hear is the spirit and the energy and the vibe. Too often we as > musicians > let the performance distract us from the music. > > BTW, so of the gig could havee been cleaner, but the peeps dug the > spirit. > We have more gigs this weekend, check out > http://jeffalbbert.com/lucky7s/for info. > > Jeff > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2006 17:55:43 -0500 From: Erik Tkal Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Marcus Bonna case on airplanes To: Stephen Jones Cc: Trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <440777EF.8000907@tkal.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed I have cached a copy at http://www.tkal.org/instrument-carryon.pdf I'm not sure if it's been superseded or nullified since. Erik Stephen Jones wrote: >What's been people's experience getting Marcus Bonna cases on as carry-on? >I'm flying Southwest from BWI to Midway and back. > >Where do I get a copy of the document saying that instruments are legitimate >carry-on items? > >Many thanks. > >Stephen Jones > > > ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 09:53:15 EST From: BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Playing musiaclly To: crtune@adelphia.net, bassboneladymail@yahoo.com, trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <1e2.4e043119.3139b25b@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I agree. The success pends upon picking the piece of music that most appeals to the listening genre of the young players. Of course after they once "hook" up with how musicality can be achieved by them teaching other pieces is enhanced. beldon wade ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 12:54:43 -0500 From: sabutin Subject: [Trombone-l] Sam Burtis in Holland, 3/12-3/18. Lessons, anyone? To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more... I arrive in Amsterdam at (Ugh!!! I hate red-eye flights.) 8:15 AM on Sunday, 3/12. Don't have to catch a train to Groningen until late afternoon/early evening although if nothing interesting arises I will go directly to Groningen from the airport. Then teach 3/13-3/17 all day every day at Prince Claus Conservatory. Nights are fairly free, plus I have my own little house in which to give lessons. Back to Amsterdam on Saturday, 3/18 for an early afternoon return flight, although once again...if something interesting should come up in Amsterdam I could take an evening train from Groningen to Amsterdam on Friday night and stay over in Amsterdam. Anybody want some first-hand explication of what I've been talking about? Get in touch... Email me at . Later... S. ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l End of Trombone-l Digest, Vol 14, Issue 3 *****************************************