Subject: Trombone-l Digest, Vol 14, Issue 2 Date: Thursday, March 2, 2006 12:00 PM From: trombone-l-request@maillists.samford.edu Reply-To: trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu To: Conversation: Trombone-l Digest, Vol 14, Issue 2 Send Trombone-l mailing list submissions to trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to trombone-l-request@maillists.samford.edu You can reach the person managing the list at trombone-l-owner@maillists.samford.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Trombone-l digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: pitch (thetubameister@adelphia.net) 2. Re: pitch (thetubameister@adelphia.net) 3. Re: pitch (Roger Hecht) 4. musicianship question (Jay Sheridan) 5. Re: musicianship question (Retired Prof 55) 6. Re: musicianship question (dslide13@aol.com) 7. Re: Musicapp.com??? (Raymond Horton) 8. Re: musicianship question (Raymond Horton) 9. Re: pitch (Bruce Faske) 10. Re: Pitch (second attempt) (Bruce Faske) 11. Re: musicianship question (Charles De Paolo) 12. Re: musicianship question (Daryl Burch) 13. Re: musicianship question (Daryl Burch) 14. Re: musicianship question (Jay Heltzer) 15. Re: musicianship question (Randy Fendrick) 16. Re: musicianship question (dslide13@aol.com) 17. Re: pitch (Atlbrvsnt@aol.com) 18. Re: musicianship question (Robert Holland) 19. Practicing (Doug Rowe) 20. Re: Pitch (second attempt) (Roger Hecht) 21. Re: musicianship question (Wayne Dyess) 22. Re: musicianship question (Chris Tune) 23. Re: Practicing (Chris Tune) 24. Re: musicianship question (Paul Kemp) 25. Re: musicianship question (Mike Caton) 26. Re: musicianship question (Bob Woodard) 27. Re: Practicing (Steve Gamble) 28. Re: musicianship question (Jay Heltzer) 29. Re: musicianship question (dslide13@aol.com) 30. Re: musicianship question (dslide13@aol.com) 31. Re: musicianship question (BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 14:03:39 -0500 From: thetubameister@adelphia.net Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] pitch To: Paul Kemp Cc: trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: <24504795.1141239819021.JavaMail.root@web29> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I agree with the philosophy, but have found that I'm lucky if I can pull out my Bach 42 tuning slide at all, if only a 1/16 inch. My Edwards comed out 3/4 inch. My other Bach 42K had the same issue as my current 42. J.c.S. ---- Paul Kemp wrote: > Somewhere in the Selmer literature concerning the 42 years ago, it said that > 42 was supposed to be in tune by pulling the main tuning slide 9/16". > > However, I've come to believe that is wishful thinking to say the least. > > I have a 16xxx 42B that had to be pulled over an inch. That horn has been > chopped up know, but I have the slide and bell which is useable with my > Greenhoe valve and straight section. The main tuning slide, in order to get > everything to fit properly had to be adjusted (cut) somewhat, but at least > everything fits together properly. > > A couple of other things enter into the mix also. Where you actually hear > the pitch plays a tremendous role in where it settles in. The mouthpiece you > use can have a tremendous effect, particularly when it comes to how far the > mouthpiece sticks out of the receiver. > > I feel that because I have been practicing more consistently and doing > things more that have to deal with strength and efficiency, and also blowing > more gently, which entails breathing much more deeply, this may bring the > pitch down somewhat. > > I'm finding that on my setup, I have to pull my main tuning slide about and > inch (perhaps a bit more) and the F-attachment slide 1/2 inch. I'm using a > Laskey 57D mouthpiece, and everything seems to settle in quite well. It's > not really that big of a deal. > > Some of this may have to do with your concept of sound as well. Clarity and > purity will seem to sound higher to the ear versus dullness and muddiness > will sound lower to the ear. The main thing, I believe, is to shoot for > beatless intonation in ensembles, not to make sure you peg the tuner right > every time. > > Paul Kemp > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 14:05:08 -0500 From: thetubameister@adelphia.net Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] pitch To: Todd Slothower Cc: trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: <7805554.1141239908778.JavaMail.root@web29> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 My valve is all the way in, but I play low F in 1st position, and move the slide out for C. J.c.S. ---- Todd Slothower wrote: > I'm glad that some of you said that your 42's were (almost) flat, > because my 42T is the same. I hardly can pull the tuning slide out at > all. I do need to pull the F plumbing out several inches though. > > Todd Slothower ts2206 @riverdale.rockis.k12.il.us > > >>> "Lisa & Patrick Bates" 03/01/06 05:35AM >>> > Mine too, has been since I got it in 1980 > Patrick > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Raymond Horton" > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 11:57 PM > Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] pitch > > > > Mines flat - almost... > > > > J.c.S > > > > ---- Raymond Horton wrote: > > > Bach 42Bs have been sharp for years, haven't they? > > > > > > RBH > > > > > > >From: "Bruce Faske" > > > >To: > > > >Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 7:47 PM > > > >Subject: [Trombone-l] pitch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>Here's something to break the doldrums... > > > >> > > > >>I recently switched over from an Edwards T-350 to a > > > >>Greenhoe Bach 42. I'm using the same mouthpiece, a > > > >>Greg Black 4.5G/5GS, but since I've settled into the > > > >>horn, I'm having to pull the main tuning slide out > > > >>almost double where it was on the Edwards. I would > > > >>chalk it up to a different horn, but I went back to > > > >>the Edwards and I had to pull it out more, too. I > > > >>even went to a buddy's horn and I had to pull that > > > >>tuning slide out, too. > > > >> > > > >>I've always been taught to not fish with the face, but > > > >>to adjust the slide to as close as I can and work from > > > >>there. > > > >> > > > >>I don't really see it as a problem, but should I? Is > > > >>it the start of something bigger? I've been working > > > >>out of the Scholossberg book lately...it's pretty much > > > >>the only new playing that I'm doing. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Trombone-l mailing list > > > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > > > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Trombone-l mailing list > > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 11:43:26 -0500 From: Roger Hecht Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] pitch To: Bruce Faske , trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.0.20060301112702.01cd7fb0@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I may be repeating things already said, but over the years, I've found that several things affect a basic tuning of the horn. Some of these you've eliminated as possibilities in your particular case. They include changes in mouthpiece (not just how far it goes into the leadpipe, but also differences in throat, cup depth, etc.), leadpipe, and approaches to air, articulation, etc. Someone mentioned conception of sound changing your approach, resulting in a change that carries over through different equipment. That's a possibility. Another may be misusing the Schlossberg exercises. I've used them on and off for years. Obviously, I have no conception as to how you play them or which ones you're doing, but I can offer a few thoughts. While the Schlossberg exercises include some long tones and slow lip slurs, they lean more to lip drills, up and down chordal exercises, etc. In my mind anyway, the emphasis of these later drills is on increasing range, technique, and flexibility, as opposed to working on breathing, breath support, etc. That's no problem if you do them correctly and use them correctly. That said, if you're overfocusing on the flexibility, range, and technical stuff, it's conceivable in over to accomodate your ambitions in these areas and make the exercises easier, you've been tightening your embouchere, speeding up your air flow, backing off on the support, or a combination of the three. You may also be attacking notes on the high side of the pitch in order to make the lip drills easier, faster, etc. If you're not doing so, spend more time on long tones, slow slurs, lower range playing, and breath support and capacity. The Remington drills are a good supplement to things like the Schlossberg, as are any set of exercises that work with the aspects of playing, mentioned in the previous sentence. You might also concentrate on centering your air flow and pitch as you play slow upward arpeggios, i.e., don't tighten as you go up the arpeggio. The Schlossbergs are great, but if you're cheating on air and support in order to progress through them more quickly than you should, they can do more harm than good. >Here's something to break the doldrums... > >I recently switched over from an Edwards T-350 to a >Greenhoe Bach 42. I'm using the same mouthpiece, a >Greg Black 4.5G/5GS, but since I've settled into the >horn, I'm having to pull the main tuning slide out >almost double where it was on the Edwards. I would >chalk it up to a different horn, but I went back to >the Edwards and I had to pull it out more, too. I >even went to a buddy's horn and I had to pull that >tuning slide out, too. > >I've always been taught to not fish with the face, but >to adjust the slide to as close as I can and work from >there. > >I don't really see it as a problem, but should I? Is >it the start of something bigger? I've been working >out of the Scholossberg book lately...it's pretty much >the only new playing that I'm doing. > > >_______________________________________________ >Trombone-l mailing list >Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l Roger Hecht ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 14:34:01 -0500 From: "Jay Sheridan" Subject: [Trombone-l] musicianship question To: Message-ID: <037e01c63d67$18120dc0$cc00f50a@sheridan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" For all those that do any teaching, how do you teach a student (or group- band/orch etc) to play musically? I have tried several different ways, but none seem to be working. I have a group that can perform rhythmically and in tune, but is lacking musically. The group in question is actually a choir, but I usually think in trombone terms when talking to them anyways. Thanks Jay Sheridan Director of Music Upper Scioto Valley Local School McGuffey, OH jsheridan@usv.k12.oh.us ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 15:40:04 -0500 From: Retired Prof 55 Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question To: "Jay Sheridan" Cc: trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: <8FDB6A1C-A963-11DA-9F54-000A9594F836@suscom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Jay, In order for musicians to go beyond what is written on the page, they need to understand how music is put together, and then they can bring out the important elements in their performance. I address this very issue throughout my book "A Composer's Guide To Understanding Music with Activities for Listeners, Interpreters, and Composers". The book discusses the various components from the viewpoint of unity and variety and explains why music has evolved as it has. The unique interpreter activities at the end of each chapter are designed to help the musician go beyond what is printed on the page. My book is available through http://cooppress.hostrack.net Sy Brandon Professor Emeritus Millersville University of Pennsylvania ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 15:48:58 -0500 From: dslide13@aol.com Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question To: jsheridan@usv.k12.oh.us Cc: trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: <8C80B88B2A66A20-E04-78CA@mblk-d20.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I use the language metaphor always. Playing technically without musicianship is similar to Ben Stein's monotonous tone in Ferris Bueller. So, have them present the music as they would read lines in a play. David Gibson trombonist/educator www.jazzbone.org -----Original Message----- From: Jay Sheridan To: trombone-l@samford.edu Sent: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 14:34:01 -0500 Subject: [Trombone-l] musicianship question For all those that do any teaching, how do you teach a student (or group- band/orch etc) to play musically? I have tried several different ways, but none seem to be working. I have a group that can perform rhythmically and in tune, but is lacking musically. The group in question is actually a choir, but I usually think in trombone terms when talking to them anyways. Thanks Jay Sheridan Director of Music Upper Scioto Valley Local School McGuffey, OH jsheridan@usv.k12.oh.us _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 16:20:34 -0500 From: Raymond Horton Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Musicapp.com??? To: Chris Tune , trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: <44061022.9010105@insightbb.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Chris Tune wrote: > Has anyone else on the Trombone-L gotten themselves signed up for > www.musicapp.com ? Hasn't happened to me (knock on keyboard). RBH ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 17:02:02 -0500 From: Raymond Horton Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question To: dslide13@aol.com Cc: trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: <440619DA.6020009@insightbb.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed I agree. I use the rise and fall of speaking very often as an example for phrasing. You could start with a negative example: "Imagine listening to a teacher who always gives the emphasis in a sentence to the last WORD. He or she might do this occasionally to make a special POINT. But if he does this all the time it would be very ANNOYING. (etc) Then illustrate the rise and fall of normal speech, and they will be much more aware of it. You can make up words to musical phrases - or just imagine general lyric type ideas without specific words ("Here, [in the second variaton to 'Annie Laurie'] this is where your dog died...") or in a choir, just have them say the lyrics in a free and easy manner. RBH dslide13@aol.com wrote: >I use the language metaphor always. Playing technically without musicianship is similar to Ben Stein's monotonous tone in Ferris Bueller. So, have them present the music as they would read lines in a play. > >David Gibson >trombonist/educator >www.jazzbone.org > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jay Sheridan >To: trombone-l@samford.edu >Sent: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 14:34:01 -0500 >Subject: [Trombone-l] musicianship question > > >For all those that do any teaching, how do you teach a student (or group- >band/orch etc) to play musically? I have tried several different ways, but none >seem to be working. I have a group that can perform rhythmically and in tune, >but is lacking musically. The group in question is actually a choir, but I >usually think in trombone terms when talking to them anyways. > >Thanks > > ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 14:14:47 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Faske Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] pitch To: trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: <20060301221447.86762.qmail@web50110.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 --- Roger Hecht wrote: > I may be repeating things already said, but over the > years, I've > found that several things affect a basic tuning of > the horn. Some of > these you've eliminated as possibilities in your > particular case. > They include changes in mouthpiece (not just how far > it goes into the > leadpipe, but also differences in throat, cup depth, > etc.), leadpipe, > and approaches to air, articulation, etc. > > Someone mentioned conception of sound changing your > approach, > resulting in a change that carries over through > different equipment. > That's a possibility. > > Another may be misusing the Schlossberg exercises. > I've used them on > and off for years. Obviously, I have no conception > as to how you play > them or which ones you're doing, but I can offer a > few thoughts. > While the Schlossberg exercises include some long > tones and slow lip > slurs, they lean more to lip drills, up and down > chordal exercises, > etc. In my mind anyway, the emphasis of these later > drills is on > increasing range, technique, and flexibility, as > opposed to working > on breathing, breath support, etc. That's no problem > if you do them > correctly and use them correctly. That said, if > you're overfocusing > on the flexibility, range, and technical stuff, it's > conceivable in > over to accomodate your ambitions in these areas and > make the > exercises easier, you've been tightening your > embouchere, speeding up > your air flow, backing off on the support, or a > combination of the > three. You may also be attacking notes on the high > side of the pitch > in order to make the lip drills easier, faster, etc. > > If you're not doing so, spend more time on long > tones, slow slurs, > lower range playing, and breath support and > capacity. The Remington > drills are a good supplement to things like the > Schlossberg, as are > any set of exercises that work with the aspects of > playing, mentioned > in the previous sentence. You might also concentrate > on centering > your air flow and pitch as you play slow upward > arpeggios, i.e., > don't tighten as you go up the arpeggio. The > Schlossbergs are great, > but if you're cheating on air and support in order > to progress > through them more quickly than you should, they can > do more harm than good. > > > > > >Here's something to break the doldrums... > > > >I recently switched over from an Edwards T-350 to a > >Greenhoe Bach 42. I'm using the same mouthpiece, a > >Greg Black 4.5G/5GS, but since I've settled into > the > >horn, I'm having to pull the main tuning slide out > >almost double where it was on the Edwards. I would > >chalk it up to a different horn, but I went back to > >the Edwards and I had to pull it out more, too. I > >even went to a buddy's horn and I had to pull that > >tuning slide out, too. > > > >I've always been taught to not fish with the face, > but > >to adjust the slide to as close as I can and work > from > >there. > > > >I don't really see it as a problem, but should I? > Is > >it the start of something bigger? I've been > working > >out of the Scholossberg book lately...it's pretty > much > >the only new playing that I'm doing. > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Trombone-l mailing list > >Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > >http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > Roger Hecht > > ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 14:16:08 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Faske Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Pitch (second attempt) To: trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: <20060301221608.83887.qmail@web50113.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Roger and Co. I've been focusing on the first few pages of the Scholossberg, actually. Particularly the exercize with the 4 quarter note, half note, half rest figure. low F, middle F, middle G, middle F, low F half note with fermata. Forte dynamics throughout the phrase. It's harder than I thought! I've been focusing on blowing through these notes, at about quarter note equals 52, and using the low F to "springboard" to the upper notes. I haven't even cracked the second half of the book, because I wanted to make sure the first few exercizes were done correctly. On another note, I looked at my mouthpiece today, and sure enough, it sets in the receiver quite a bit farther than on the Edwards...maybe it's time for teflon tape? ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 18:00:19 -0500 From: "Charles De Paolo" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question To: "Trombone List" Message-ID: <01c301c63d83$e97d4930$1e00a8c0@Road1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Stupid stuff that's worked for me: 1. Send them home with favorite recordings. Ask them to copy what they hear. (i.e. "Listen!") 2. Sing to them. Be really passionate, pitch and tone quality be damned if need be. Use the exercise as a way to show the changes of intensity that make a phrase go. 3. Form them into chamber groups and drill home musicality as their coach. On a more initmate scale, it's easier to get your section leaders and others to get with the program. They can then pass on the knowledge to their colleagues. 4. Let them really exaggerate musical lines, then back them off (in band as well as in sectionals and chamber rehearsals). Go way overboard so they get the idea, then tack them back to a more appropriate interpretation. They'll likely think this to be silly at first. But what you're trying to do is "stretch their interpretive envelope" as it were, so that when you relax, they wind up where you want them to be. 5. Do musical basics with them such as leading over the barline (4 goes to 1 and so on). 6. Point out antecedant and consquent phrases and have them apply the appropriate dynamics. Then, make them point them out to you and play them to you in a question-answer format. 7. Throw a paper plane and ask them to play what they see (paper planes make wonderful swoops and dives, much like a good phrase). OK, if that sounds too silly, use your hands to demonstrate the "flight path" of a favorite phrase throught the air. Have them imitate that on their horns. All these have been succesful strategies for me with brass quintets, jazz bands, large trombone choirs, and any number of individual private students. Good luck! ---Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay Sheridan To: trombone-l@samford.edu Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 2:34 PM Subject: [Trombone-l] musicianship question For all those that do any teaching, how do you teach a student (or group- band/orch etc) to play musically? I have tried several different ways, but none seem to be working. I have a group that can perform rhythmically and in tune, but is lacking musically. The group in question is actually a choir, but I usually think in trombone terms when talking to them anyways. Thanks Jay Sheridan Director of Music Upper Scioto Valley Local School McGuffey, OH jsheridan@usv.k12.oh.us _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 15:26:08 -0800 From: Daryl Burch Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question To: Raymond Horton Cc: trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Jon von Olen (Blue Wisp Big Band, Andy Williams, Mel Torm?) at CCM would have his drummers say phrases to play certain swing rhythms on the ride cymbal. Most commonly he'd have them say "What the f---, what the f---, what the f---." This tended to raise the eyre of the more religious players. But _THEY ALL_ learned how to play a solid swing in their ride cymbals. A more accessible example would be the very first track on Maceo Parker's "Dial M-A-C-E-O" album. Just saying the phrase "Rabbits in the pea patch. Catch 'em. Catch 'em." instantly puts a bump in your step and conveys the infectious groove they're about to lay down. So much so that my 2 & 7 year olds do it from the start. And I hear walkin' around the house singing it. Since so much of funk is based on inner body rhythm, that's about the best example I can think of of thinking musically. "Duh da duh da dee dot." doesn't have quite the same impression as "rabbits in the pea patch" IMHO. If you saw that phrase written on the staff it would just be straight 8ths with _maybe_ some articulations marked. Interpreting it would be solely up to the player. I hope haven't strayed too far off the point. Just happened to be listening to Maceo when this message came through. Cheers! -D- www.radionoise.com <- Rock star by night www.burchinteractive.com <- Tech-nerd by day #;-) On Mar 1, 2006, at 2:02 PM, Raymond Horton wrote: > I agree. I use the rise and fall of speaking very often as an example > for phrasing. > > > You could start with a negative example: > > > "Imagine listening to a teacher who always gives the emphasis in a > sentence to the last WORD. He or she might do this occasionally to > make > a special POINT. But if he does this all the time it would be very > ANNOYING. (etc) > > > Then illustrate the rise and fall of normal speech, and they will be > much more aware of it. You can make up words to musical phrases - or > just imagine general lyric type ideas without specific words ("Here, > [in > the second variaton to 'Annie Laurie'] this is where your dog died...") > or in a choir, just have them say the lyrics in a free and easy manner. > > RBH > > > > > dslide13@aol.com wrote: > >> I use the language metaphor always. Playing technically without >> musicianship is similar to Ben Stein's monotonous tone in Ferris >> Bueller. So, have them present the music as they would read lines >> in a play. >> >> David Gibson >> trombonist/educator >> www.jazzbone.org >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jay Sheridan >> To: trombone-l@samford.edu >> Sent: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 14:34:01 -0500 >> Subject: [Trombone-l] musicianship question >> >> >> For all those that do any teaching, how do you teach a student (or >> group- >> band/orch etc) to play musically? I have tried several different >> ways, but none >> seem to be working. I have a group that can perform rhythmically and >> in tune, >> but is lacking musically. The group in question is actually a choir, >> but I >> usually think in trombone terms when talking to them anyways. >> >> Thanks >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 15:52:04 -0800 From: Daryl Burch Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question To: John Monroe Cc: List Trombone Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Not to hammer the point to death, but.... "Black Widow" and "Coin Toss" are two EXCELLENT tunes to show how lyrics can be influenced by rhythm. "Black Widow" is a slow-burn groove that has tons of polyrhythmic syncopation throughout the verses that you can't help but feel. You can pick them apart in many different subdivisions. These would be really effective at showing high school kids how adults can groove too. Then you tell them Maceo's pushin' 65 and has been recording for 40 years. They're jaws will drop. Then you point out the he & Fred Wesley are on the Black Eyed Peas latest album (track 10, "They Don't Want Music"). And they won't know how to handle it. Last August I gave a "Maceo care package" to a high school friend that plays alto sax. She hasn't stopped listening to it since and has taken a greater interest in jazz band. Of course now she's wearing Bootsy Collins star-shaped sunglasses and fishbowl platform boots. And keeps ramblin' things like "You got ta rock wit' da funk." And "Jump back! Kiss ma-self! Ow!" Cheers! -D- www.radionoise.com <- Rock star by night www.burchinteractive.com <- Tech-nerd by day #;-) On Mar 1, 2006, at 3:28 PM, John Monroe wrote: > GREAT suggestion. > > Thanks, Daryl. > > John Monroe > On Mar 1, 2006, at 3:26 PM, Daryl Burch wrote: > >> Jon von Olen (Blue Wisp Big Band, Andy Williams, Mel Torm?) at CCM >> would have his drummers say phrases to play certain swing rhythms on >> the ride cymbal. Most commonly he'd have them say "What the f---, >> what >> the f---, what the f---." This tended to raise the eyre of the more >> religious players. But _THEY ALL_ learned how to play a solid swing >> in >> their ride cymbals. >> >> A more accessible example would be the very first track on Maceo >> Parker's "Dial M-A-C-E-O" album. Just saying the phrase "Rabbits in >> the >> pea patch. Catch 'em. Catch 'em." instantly puts a bump in your step >> and conveys the infectious groove they're about to lay down. So much >> so >> that my 2 & 7 year olds do it from the start. And I hear walkin' >> around >> the house singing it. >> >> Since so much of funk is based on inner body rhythm, that's about the >> best example I can think of of thinking musically. "Duh da duh da dee >> dot." doesn't have quite the same impression as "rabbits in the pea >> patch" IMHO. If you saw that phrase written on the staff it would just >> be straight 8ths with _maybe_ some articulations marked. Interpreting >> it would be solely up to the player. >> >> I hope haven't strayed too far off the point. Just happened to be >> listening to Maceo when this message came through. >> >> Cheers! >> -D- >> www.radionoise.com <- Rock star by night >> www.burchinteractive.com <- Tech-nerd by day #;-) >> >> >> On Mar 1, 2006, at 2:02 PM, Raymond Horton wrote: >> >>> I agree. I use the rise and fall of speaking very often as an >>> example >>> for phrasing. >>> >>> >>> You could start with a negative example: >>> >>> >>> "Imagine listening to a teacher who always gives the emphasis in a >>> sentence to the last WORD. He or she might do this occasionally to >>> make >>> a special POINT. But if he does this all the time it would be very >>> ANNOYING. (etc) >>> >>> >>> Then illustrate the rise and fall of normal speech, and they will be >>> much more aware of it. You can make up words to musical phrases - or >>> just imagine general lyric type ideas without specific words ("Here, >>> [in >>> the second variaton to 'Annie Laurie'] this is where your dog >>> died...") >>> or in a choir, just have them say the lyrics in a free and easy >>> manner. >>> >>> RBH >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> dslide13@aol.com wrote: >>> >>>> I use the language metaphor always. Playing technically without >>>> musicianship is similar to Ben Stein's monotonous tone in Ferris >>>> Bueller. So, have them present the music as they would read lines >>>> in a play. >>>> >>>> David Gibson >>>> trombonist/educator >>>> www.jazzbone.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Jay Sheridan >>>> To: trombone-l@samford.edu >>>> Sent: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 14:34:01 -0500 >>>> Subject: [Trombone-l] musicianship question >>>> >>>> >>>> For all those that do any teaching, how do you teach a student (or >>>> group- >>>> band/orch etc) to play musically? I have tried several different >>>> ways, but none >>>> seem to be working. I have a group that can perform rhythmically and >>>> in tune, >>>> but is lacking musically. The group in question is actually a choir, >>>> but I >>>> usually think in trombone terms when talking to them anyways. >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Trombone-l mailing list >>> Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >>> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Trombone-l mailing list >> Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 20:41:34 -0500 From: Jay Heltzer Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question To: Jay Sheridan , Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Idiots guide to playing musically: Louder and softer. Any questions? Jay Heltzer > From: "Jay Sheridan" > Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 14:34:01 -0500 > To: > Subject: [Trombone-l] musicianship question > > For all those that do any teaching, how do you teach a student (or group- > band/orch etc) to play musically? I have tried several different ways, but > none seem to be working. I have a group that can perform rhythmically and in > tune, but is lacking musically. The group in question is actually a choir, but > I usually think in trombone terms when talking to them anyways. > > Thanks > > Jay Sheridan > Director of Music > Upper Scioto Valley Local School > McGuffey, OH > jsheridan@usv.k12.oh.us > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 17:56:42 -0800 From: Randy Fendrick Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question To: Jay Heltzer Cc: trombone-L Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I like Artie Shaws reply: "Idiots with pit bulls!" probably the same people, later, On Mar 1, 2006, at 5:41 PM, Jay Heltzer wrote: > Idiots guide to playing musically: > > Louder and softer. > > Any questions? > > Jay Heltzer > >> From: "Jay Sheridan" >> Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 14:34:01 -0500 >> To: >> Subject: [Trombone-l] musicianship question >> >> For all those that do any teaching, how do you teach a student (or >> group- >> band/orch etc) to play musically? I have tried several different >> ways, but >> none seem to be working. I have a group that can perform rhythmically >> and in >> tune, but is lacking musically. The group in question is actually a >> choir, but >> I usually think in trombone terms when talking to them anyways. >> >> Thanks >> >> Jay Sheridan >> Director of Music >> Upper Scioto Valley Local School >> McGuffey, OH >> jsheridan@usv.k12.oh.us >> _______________________________________________ >> Trombone-l mailing list >> Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > Randy Fendrick, Southside Chicago Seven Bakersfield Symphony Orchestra ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 21:18:00 -0500 From: dslide13@aol.com Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question To: jhfloyd@earthlink.net, jsheridan@usv.k12.oh.us, trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: <8C80BB6A9D0553C-1554-200@MBLK-M07.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Right...and telling that to a student who already doesn't know anything will accomplish what??? David Gibson trombonist/educator www.jazzbone.org -----Original Message----- From: Jay Heltzer To: Jay Sheridan ; trombone-l@samford.edu Sent: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 20:41:34 -0500 Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question Idiots guide to playing musically: Louder and softer. Any questions? Jay Heltzer > From: "Jay Sheridan" > Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 14:34:01 -0500 > To: > Subject: [Trombone-l] musicianship question > > For all those that do any teaching, how do you teach a student (or group- > band/orch etc) to play musically? I have tried several different ways, but > none seem to be working. I have a group that can perform rhythmically and in > tune, but is lacking musically. The group in question is actually a choir, but > I usually think in trombone terms when talking to them anyways. > > Thanks > > Jay Sheridan > Director of Music > Upper Scioto Valley Local School > McGuffey, OH > jsheridan@usv.k12.oh.us > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 23:16:19 EST From: Atlbrvsnt@aol.com Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] pitch To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <23f.7d18230.3137cb93@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Mine is like that too...I play my 42BO with the main tuning slide consistently out about 1/8 inch (I can go for months without moving it until I have a day when I'm playing sharp for some strange reason) and the trigger slide is dialed in at just over an inch--I play C's out a few inches from 1st position. I also tend to play with the tuning slide in farther than most people though. Tommy Cox Thomas B. Cox Graduate Teaching Assistant UGA Music Education I'm glad that some of you said that your 42's were (almost) flat, because my 42T is the same. I hardly can pull the tuning slide out at all. I do need to pull the F plumbing out several inches though. Todd Slothower ts2206 @riverdale.rockis.k12.il.us >>> "Lisa & Patrick Bates" 03/01/06 05:35AM >>> Mine too, has been since I got it in 1980 Patrick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Raymond Horton" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 11:57 PM Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] pitch > Mines flat - almost... > > J.c.S > > ---- Raymond Horton wrote: > > Bach 42Bs have been sharp for years, haven't they? > > > > RBH > > > > >From: "Bruce Faske" > > >To: > > >Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 7:47 PM > > >Subject: [Trombone-l] pitch > > > > > > > > >? > > > > > >>Here's something to break the doldrums... > > >> > > >>I recently switched over from an Edwards T-350 to a > > >>Greenhoe Bach 42.? I'm using the same mouthpiece, a > > >>Greg Black 4.5G/5GS, but since I've settled into the > > >>horn, I'm having to pull the main tuning slide out > > >>almost double where it was on the Edwards.? I would > > >>chalk it up to a different horn, but I went back to > > >>the Edwards and I had to pull it out more, too.? I > > >>even went to a buddy's horn and I had to pull that > > >>tuning slide out, too. > > >> > > >>I've always been taught to not fish with the face, but > > >>to adjust the slide to as close as I can and work from > > >>there. > > >> > > >>I don't really see it as a problem, but should I?? Is > > >>it the start of something bigger?? I've been working > > >>out of the Scholossberg book lately...it's pretty much > > >>the only new playing that I'm doing. > > >> ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 22:17:50 -0600 From: Robert Holland Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question To: "Trb. List" Message-ID: <0b0bb46a71b685e8362d21437779456b@rcn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Jay Sheridan wrote: > For all those that do any teaching, how do you teach a student (or > group- band/orch etc) to play musically? I have tried several > different ways, but none seem to be working. I have a group that can > perform rhythmically and in tune, but is lacking musically. The group > in question is actually a choir, but I usually think in trombone terms > when talking to them anyways. This already turns out to be a rather provocative question. Still, I should caution: think as a musician, not as a trombonist. The trombone is merely a medium; musicianship requires understanding, taste, and inspiration independent of any particular medium. That said, Jay Heltzer's pithy remark about dynamics made some sense to me, though I usually think more in terms of weight and release. As Dave Gibson remarks, all by itself, that's not enough to instruct students. Where, when, how much, and how often are all issues that a musical person can intuit, but an experienced musician/teacher should be able to break it down to some good ideas (to use) and bad ideas (to avoid). It also occurred to me that I think on at least two levels when making musical choices: within the phrase and across phrases. It's hard to communicate both musical ideas at once, but it's necessary, I think, to recognize that note-by-note minutiae should ultimately add to phrase- and melody-level shaping. That's just a start, of course, but it's initial my 2 cents on what could be a lengthy and worthwhile discussion. Robert Holland, Publisher Briar Music Press briar@rcn.com www.briarmusic.com ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 22:18:26 -0600 From: Doug Rowe Subject: [Trombone-l] Practicing To: Trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <44067212.1060102@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed I have a question for all those who regularly practice their trombones: What do you practice? I'm not looking for exercises or routines--more, what kind of music to you play each day? Do you polish everything you play to perfection? Do you spend hours sight riding? In order to maybe help clarify HOW folks should answer this fairly generic question, here's what prompts me to ask: I have recently had a change in attitude toward the instrument--not in a bad way, but it's taking a different place for me in my life. Since college (I'm currently 27) I have always been entertaining the idea of attending graduate school for trombone in the back of my mind, even while working as an engineer. I've written the list about this a few times, folks advice was very helpful. In the past few months I switched jobs, still in technology, and am loving what I'm doing. It's something that I think I'm going to stick with for a while--a career. Which is where the change in trombone mentality comes in. I have been practicing for the past 5 years in preparation for a graduate school audition. Excerpts, solo pieces polished, re-polished, buffed, then shined up again. Now, I'm playing for fun, instead of with a specific goal, aside from the goal of performing well in the local/community ensembles that I play with each week. So... The question comes up, what to practice? I need to keep my chops up, but I'm tired of reading my way through 15 Rochut and Blazevich etudes every day just to keep my lip. I'm also tired of working up solo pieces that I'll probably never get the chance to perform (The Hidas Meditation just doesn't work well as a worship piece in a Lutheran church). I do some solo performing, but generally it's in church--mostly shorter pieces that are not overly challenging. I would like to keep growing as a player, but, I'm a goal driven person--with out a big goal, I'm finding it hard to get motivated to put the time in on the horn like I used to. Don't get me wrong--I still love to play, and I am doing somethings now that I NEVER used to do--trying to play more pieces by ear, trying to improve (learn?) improvisation by playing along with CD's or the stereo. But, I'm at a point where I'm just out of ideas about WHAT I should practice. So, I turn to the list, where I'm sure plenty of others have been in a similar situation. What do you practice? If you want to throw a "why" component into that question, I'd be interested too, but I wouldn't hold anyone to that. Thanks! Doug ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 23:25:34 -0500 From: Roger Hecht Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Pitch (second attempt) To: Bruce Faske , trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.0.20060301232209.01cbd118@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 05:16 PM 3/1/2006, Bruce Faske wrote: >Roger and Co. > >I've been focusing on the first few pages of the >Scholossberg, actually. Particularly the exercize >with the 4 quarter note, half note, half rest figure. >low F, middle F, middle G, middle F, low F half note >with fermata. Forte dynamics throughout the phrase. >It's harder than I thought! So much for my theory. So try this one. Are you blowing sharp as you get loud? To the point where you've gotten used to being sharp? It's easy to do. A tuner can answer that one. >I've been focusing on blowing through these notes, at >about quarter note equals 52, and using the low F to >"springboard" to the upper notes. Not sure what this means, but I can picture something like it that involves tightening up for the upper notes. Just a guess. > I haven't even >cracked the second half of the book, because I wanted >to make sure the first few exercizes were done >correctly. > >On another note, I looked at my mouthpiece today, and >sure enough, it sets in the receiver quite a bit >farther than on the Edwards...maybe it's time for >teflon tape? For some reason, I thought you had checked this. Perhaps you have found the culprit. There still may be something in your changing your approach somehow after switching horns. Hard to say from this distance. Roger Hecht ------------------------------ Message: 21 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 22:57:34 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question To: Jay Sheridan Cc: trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I have found that most school groups need some direction to sound musical. I have them write in little things that are not in the printed music. Hairpins, accents, dynamic contrasts... contouring a line to follow the melodic content. There is great book that was published by Vandercook simply called "Expression" that lays out a pretty good plan for teaching musicianship. I don't know if it is still in print, but it sure helped me when I was first teaching (in those days, jr. high band). The ideas I learned from that have carried me through my now 30th year of teaching at the college level... and I still use many of the techniques presented in the Vandercook paperback. Terrific book. Dynamics are given numbers.... 1 the softest... 10 the loudest. A jr. high band might only get 4 to 7 or 8 with good taste and tone quality. A high school band should be able to go from 2 to 9. College, the full range hopefully. That was but one of the techniques used to teach musicianship. Fun topic. Good luck! Wayne Dyess On Mar 1, 2006, at 1:34 PM, Jay Sheridan wrote: > For all those that do any teaching, how do you teach a student (or > group- band/orch etc) to play musically? I have tried several > different ways, but none seem to be working. I have a group that can > perform rhythmically and in tune, but is lacking musically. The group > in question is actually a choir, but I usually think in trombone terms > when talking to them anyways. > > Thanks > > Jay Sheridan > Director of Music > Upper Scioto Valley Local School > McGuffey, OH > jsheridan@usv.k12.oh.us > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > Dr. Wayne Dyess, Professor of Trombone and Director of Jazz Studies Lamar University Dept. of Music, Theatre & Dance P. O. Box 10044 Beaumont, Texas 77710 409-880-8146 http://lamar.edu/ ------------------------------ Message: 22 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 21:24:09 -0800 From: "Chris Tune" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question To: "Robert Holland" , "Trb. List" Message-ID: <008601c63db9$88d89fe0$0400a8c0@athlon2800> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Like any kind of training, this probably is a multi-pronged issue. The first priority is awareness of the issue itself. . . Have you discussed the notion of musicality vs. stiff, overly mechanical performance? Maybe there is a way to do this "diplomatically". Perhaps the way to present is as a series of improvements, the first of which is the technically right, but mechanical part. Then, we move on to musicality. Doubtlessly, though the first thing to occur is to actually become aware of the NEED for the musicality. Then you have to define what musicality is. This is much harder. In fact, this is a never-ending quest. BUT. . .we can certainly isolate parts of what is entailed. As Jay says--DYNAMICS are a big part. Not just loud and soft but all the dynamics, including such things as marcato and things which are similar to, but not exactly dynamics alone--(e.g. "dolce" or very sweet sound). We can dig up good examples of very musical performances. Of course, the best musicians are often very big fans and collectors of recordings. I just spent more time with ace jazz trumpeter Bob Summers (ex-Basie, ex-Maynard Ferguson, ex-Woody Herman. . .still with Bill Holman and so forth). I was reminded of just what a record-collecting junkie Bob is. Just about everything I've gotten over the years is also in Bob's collection. He also has almost everything from Rosolino. . .remarkeable in a trumpet player. PRACTICE is the next, and often weakest part of the equation. Once we know a bunch of techniques that comprise musical effort (like dynamics, like proper articulation, like excellence in tone quality, and on, and on) we still need to actually practice each of these things. . both in isolation and in context. This requires that we organize our practice and our choice of material to allow us to practice the art in its various aspects (do I have literature that is LOUD?. . .is everything dolce?. . .is it all modern, and nothing traditional?) Basically we have to get the group on the road to musicality, and hopefully as many of the group will get into it as possible. Even if there are a few clueless ones. . .often they will be dragged along with the others. Humans are great at "group-think" and imitation. If enough performers become musically aware, often the rest fall in. Good luck. This is the "good fight". Of course nobody ever said it was easy. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Holland" To: "Trb. List" Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 8:17 PM Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question > Jay Sheridan wrote: > >> For all those that do any teaching, how do you teach a student (or >> group- band/orch etc) to play musically? I have tried several >> different ways, but none seem to be working. I have a group that can >> perform rhythmically and in tune, but is lacking musically. The group >> in question is actually a choir, but I usually think in trombone terms >> when talking to them anyways. > > This already turns out to be a rather provocative question. Still, I > should caution: think as a musician, not as a trombonist. The trombone > is merely a medium; musicianship requires understanding, taste, and > inspiration independent of any particular medium. > > That said, Jay Heltzer's pithy remark about dynamics made some sense to > me, though I usually think more in terms of weight and release. As Dave > Gibson remarks, all by itself, that's not enough to instruct students. > Where, when, how much, and how often are all issues that a musical > person can intuit, but an experienced musician/teacher should be able > to break it down to some good ideas (to use) and bad ideas (to avoid). > > It also occurred to me that I think on at least two levels when making > musical choices: within the phrase and across phrases. It's hard to > communicate both musical ideas at once, but it's necessary, I think, to > recognize that note-by-note minutiae should ultimately add to phrase- > and melody-level shaping. > > That's just a start, of course, but it's initial my 2 cents on what > could be a lengthy and worthwhile discussion. > > Robert Holland, Publisher > Briar Music Press > briar@rcn.com > www.briarmusic.com > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > ------------------------------ Message: 23 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 21:50:10 -0800 From: "Chris Tune" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Practicing To: "Doug Rowe" , Message-ID: <00be01c63dbd$2b62db10$0400a8c0@athlon2800> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original The short answer is "just about everything". But then, that can't be possible. .maybe it just "seems" that way. Like you, early on, I polished up concert pieces and learned orchestral excerpts and looked forward to symphony performing or really any kind of performing because it put me "on the spot". As I did more and more of this, including stints with a Top 40 "rock band" and many jazz bands and needed to learn to improvise, I began to get more and more scale patterns and "licks" in my kit. Now, I seek to learn and know the "standards", since I'm often asked to jump into casuals where this is the thing. As I develop in this arena (Aebersold and BIAB helps), I see that it is perfectly alright to have available set licks (in fact, the greatest seem to rely on these just as do the mere mortals), but the key is to not forget that you are trying to use these things CREATIVELY. So, the unexpected is really your friend and often something that, might at first seem a mistake, is really just "jazz". You know, a simple switch to a held note holding beyond what might normally be expected. . .or rhythmically repeated stuff or something slightly obnoxious like exaggerated glisses over a partial or two, isn't neccesarily a bad thing. Deal is, to put these in where they make sense. I find that attending "rehearsal bands" and the gigs I do, will give me enough sight reading for now. Although, for me, it would be good to find some more challenges here (I've read so many thousands of these things, that they are starting to repeat a bit). One favorite band for this is a "twenties" band with many of the original Fletcher Henderson style charts. Very challenging and hyper active! Another way of getting into this kind of style would be to record and overdub some ragtime pieces. I find I go back to basics every once in a while. I cannot stand it if my tone doesn't sound good, or my attacks get erratic. I try to go back to essentially basic or (forgive me for the term--its convenient!) "legit" style technique with regularity, as I continue to keep up the more modern jazz and commercial techniques. Lately, I've experimented and tried to practice once in a while with plunger. That can certainly be fun. Having a decent command of certain mutes is a decent thing to vary your diet (the "Solotone" mute is a bear. . .it is stuffiness itself. . .yet, it comes in handy in certain swing era tunes like in the Dorsey and Miller books). Regarding the extent to which I work things up--I try and really practice over and over, things I know will come up for me. I play IGSOY just about once or twice a week, whether it comes up or not. I play Song of India while practicing the mute. I play Marie. I play the Bijou solo once every few weeks. I do the Stardust solo about the same. I play some of Jim Pankow's solos which I rarely have to perform, but it is nice to be able to pop them out when needed, besides they are classic and thus are great chop builders. Gradually I'm adding to the list of solos that work like this. Bijou is the latest. I can think of a few more I'd like to add to the list. Same thing for Bolero. . .same thing for the Requiem, same thing for the "Ride", and so on. Not too long goes by but I do work on these. It often seems as if each has its own unique "teaching" to help you. Hope this helps. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Rowe" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 8:18 PM Subject: [Trombone-l] Practicing >I have a question for all those who regularly practice their trombones: > > What do you practice? I'm not looking for exercises or routines--more, > what kind of music to you play each day? Do you polish everything you > play to perfection? Do you spend hours sight riding? > > In order to maybe help clarify HOW folks should answer this fairly > generic question, here's what prompts me to ask: > > I have recently had a change in attitude toward the instrument--not in a > bad way, but it's taking a different place for me in my life. Since > college (I'm currently 27) I have always been entertaining the idea of > attending graduate school for trombone in the back of my mind, even > while working as an engineer. I've written the list about this a few > times, folks advice was very helpful. > > In the past few months I switched jobs, still in technology, and am > loving what I'm doing. It's something that I think I'm going to stick > with for a while--a career. > > Which is where the change in trombone mentality comes in. I have been > practicing for the past 5 years in preparation for a graduate school > audition. Excerpts, solo pieces polished, re-polished, buffed, then > shined up again. > > Now, I'm playing for fun, instead of with a specific goal, aside from > the goal of performing well in the local/community ensembles that I play > with each week. > > So... > > The question comes up, what to practice? I need to keep my chops up, > but I'm tired of reading my way through 15 Rochut and Blazevich etudes > every day just to keep my lip. I'm also tired of working up solo pieces > that I'll probably never get the chance to perform (The Hidas Meditation > just doesn't work well as a worship piece in a Lutheran church). > > I do some solo performing, but generally it's in church--mostly shorter > pieces that are not overly challenging. I would like to keep growing as > a player, but, I'm a goal driven person--with out a big goal, I'm > finding it hard to get motivated to put the time in on the horn like I > used to. > > Don't get me wrong--I still love to play, and I am doing somethings now > that I NEVER used to do--trying to play more pieces by ear, trying to > improve (learn?) improvisation by playing along with CD's or the > stereo. But, I'm at a point where I'm just out of ideas about WHAT I > should practice. > > So, I turn to the list, where I'm sure plenty of others have been in a > similar situation. > > What do you practice? If you want to throw a "why" component into that > question, I'd be interested too, but I wouldn't hold anyone to that. > > Thanks! > Doug > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > ------------------------------ Message: 24 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 00:49:58 -0500 From: "Paul Kemp" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question To: Message-ID: <000001c63dbd$23b5fb40$0201a8c0@paul25nv60mdvg> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The one thing that I see almost completely missing in the study of musicianship is the idea of phrasing. Too many people are too content just to make sure that they get the right notes, in tune, the correct articulation at the right time. As brass players, it is so easy to become robotic, particularly when notes are tongued. It seems so that we think that the only time we have to phrase anything is when it is slurred. It is so easy to get into this thing where we "warm up" (I still hate that phrase) unmusically in that we don't phrase. Wayne, you'll appreciate this one. A friend of mine was working on the SECURITY IN THE HIGH RANGE section of the Remington warm ups last week. He asked me if I did anything special in order to get the high notes as far as moving the mouthpiece, or changing my embouchure, or anything like that. I told him that the secret to really mastering this was to think of it as a beautiful line out of a song, irregardless of whether you tongued the notes or slurred them. Don't worry about the method---go for the product, which is THE PHRASE. $50,000 lesson for free. (Perhaps that's why I don't use the Remington studies because I've heard them played so badly. I do use some things out of those studies, but I much prefer the Colin Lip Flexibilities. To me, they resemble musical lines more than the Remington studies). Even if you have 2 whole notes, they need to be phrased together. I actually witnessed a situation in a professional orchestra where the tuba player had 4 sets of 2 whole notes, and it was so obvious that they needed to be phrased together in twos. He didn't do it, and the entire musical effect was ruined in that he had trouble getting the notes to speak. Nothing was ever said from the podium in any of the rehearsals. I'm teaching the Tannhauser excerpt to 3 of my students for youth orchestra auditions in a couple of months. I dug out my budget CD of the old Chicago Symphony Orchestra (1970's) playing that overture, and I heard phrasing all over the place. That trombone section really understood that you've got to play phrases. In reality, that's what wins and loses auditions. It's not about how loud you play it, (even though those guys play it loud enough to turn the Pope Protestant) it's how well you phrase it, and observe all of the other stuff too. Paul Kemp -----Original Message----- From: trombone-l-bounces@maillists.samford.edu [mailto:trombone-l-bounces@maillists.samford.edu] On Behalf Of Wayne Dyess Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 11:58 PM To: Jay Sheridan Cc: trombone-l@samford.edu Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question I have found that most school groups need some direction to sound musical. I have them write in little things that are not in the printed music. Hairpins, accents, dynamic contrasts... contouring a line to follow the melodic content. There is great book that was published by Vandercook simply called "Expression" that lays out a pretty good plan for teaching musicianship. I don't know if it is still in print, but it sure helped me when I was first teaching (in those days, jr. high band). The ideas I learned from that have carried me through my now 30th year of teaching at the college level... and I still use many of the techniques presented in the Vandercook paperback. Terrific book. Dynamics are given numbers.... 1 the softest... 10 the loudest. A jr. high band might only get 4 to 7 or 8 with good taste and tone quality. A high school band should be able to go from 2 to 9. College, the full range hopefully. That was but one of the techniques used to teach musicianship. Fun topic. Good luck! Wayne Dyess On Mar 1, 2006, at 1:34 PM, Jay Sheridan wrote: > For all those that do any teaching, how do you teach a student (or > group- band/orch etc) to play musically? I have tried several > different ways, but none seem to be working. I have a group that can > perform rhythmically and in tune, but is lacking musically. The group > in question is actually a choir, but I usually think in trombone terms > when talking to them anyways. > > Thanks > > Jay Sheridan > Director of Music > Upper Scioto Valley Local School > McGuffey, OH > jsheridan@usv.k12.oh.us > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > Dr. Wayne Dyess, Professor of Trombone and Director of Jazz Studies Lamar University Dept. of Music, Theatre & Dance P. O. Box 10044 Beaumont, Texas 77710 409-880-8146 http://lamar.edu/ _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.1/271 - Release Date: 2/28/2006 ------------------------------ Message: 25 Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2006 08:33:19 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: Mike Caton Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question To: Jay Sheridan , Wayne Dyess Cc: trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: <4406F41F.000001.02804@UNDERCOV-700393> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-8859-1 The key, especially with young performers is repetition, no one learns a technique with one pass. Constant reinforcement of the good habits and quick correction of the bad. Set and strive for the highest possible standards, never accept good enough. Enforce the "pencil" rule and make sure your musicality points are written into the parts. Just keep chipping away at them and sooner or later, most likely after you pass the students on, they will Start to get it. Mike On Mar 1, 2006, at 1:34 PM, Jay Sheridan wrote: > For all those that do any teaching, how do you teach a student (or > group- band/orch etc) to play musically? I have tried several > different ways, but none seem to be working. I have a group that can > perform rhythmically and in tune, but is lacking musically. The group > in question is actually a choir, but I usually think in trombone terms > when talking to them anyways. > > Thanks > > Jay Sheridan > Director of Music > Upper Scioto Valley Local School > McGuffey, OH ------------------------------ Message: 26 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 08:34:36 -0500 From: "Bob Woodard" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question To: "'Trb. List'" Message-ID: <000001c63dfe$10300d90$6701a8c0@DADDY> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think that playing musically is a result of being able to have a "sense" of what the music should sound like in one's head. That "sense" is best developed by listening to lots of music. The more exposure to different styles/genres the better. Recorded and/or live. Better still is having the opportunity to perform in ensembles with musicians who play or sing musically (community groups, all-state/region/district bands or choirs). Encourage private study if possible. Small ensembles and solos also are great opportunities for developing musical sensitivity. Good luck and kudos for being an advocate for making music more than just notes and rhythms - oh to have more teachers that were willing to work on developing true musicianship. Bob Woodard > For all those that do any teaching, how do you teach a > student (or group- band/orch etc) to play musically? ------------------------------ Message: 27 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 06:58:00 -0700 From: "Steve Gamble" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Practicing To: "Doug Rowe" , Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Doug, I'm in a situation that is similar to yours in that I play the trombone and I work in the library. Your basic challenge in practicing will be to do what ever keeps you satisfied as a musician. It will be fairly obvious what to practice when the inevitable deterioration of some essential aspect of your playing, caused by the distraction of your technology job, becomes noticeable. For me that means most of my practicing is maintenance of fundamentals and the music that I need to perform. This can be kind of routine or 'boring' but it makes for good performances, a very satisfying and motivating result. Steve Gamble, Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 (520) 792-9155 x118 (520) 792-9314 fax (520) 991-7056 cel sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org -----Original Message----- From: trombone-l-bounces@maillists.samford.edu [mailto:trombone-l-bounces@maillists.samford.edu] On Behalf Of Doug Rowe Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 9:18 PM To: Trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Subject: [Trombone-l] Practicing I have a question for all those who regularly practice their trombones: What do you practice? I'm not looking for exercises or routines--more, what kind of music to you play each day? Do you polish everything you play to perfection? Do you spend hours sight riding? In order to maybe help clarify HOW folks should answer this fairly generic question, here's what prompts me to ask: I have recently had a change in attitude toward the instrument--not in a bad way, but it's taking a different place for me in my life. Since college (I'm currently 27) I have always been entertaining the idea of attending graduate school for trombone in the back of my mind, even while working as an engineer. I've written the list about this a few times, folks advice was very helpful. In the past few months I switched jobs, still in technology, and am loving what I'm doing. It's something that I think I'm going to stick with for a while--a career. Which is where the change in trombone mentality comes in. I have been practicing for the past 5 years in preparation for a graduate school audition. Excerpts, solo pieces polished, re-polished, buffed, then shined up again. Now, I'm playing for fun, instead of with a specific goal, aside from the goal of performing well in the local/community ensembles that I play with each week. So... The question comes up, what to practice? I need to keep my chops up, but I'm tired of reading my way through 15 Rochut and Blazevich etudes every day just to keep my lip. I'm also tired of working up solo pieces that I'll probably never get the chance to perform (The Hidas Meditation just doesn't work well as a worship piece in a Lutheran church). I do some solo performing, but generally it's in church--mostly shorter pieces that are not overly challenging. I would like to keep growing as a player, but, I'm a goal driven person--with out a big goal, I'm finding it hard to get motivated to put the time in on the horn like I used to. Don't get me wrong--I still love to play, and I am doing somethings now that I NEVER used to do--trying to play more pieces by ear, trying to improve (learn?) improvisation by playing along with CD's or the stereo. But, I'm at a point where I'm just out of ideas about WHAT I should practice. So, I turn to the list, where I'm sure plenty of others have been in a similar situation. What do you practice? If you want to throw a "why" component into that question, I'd be interested too, but I wouldn't hold anyone to that. Thanks! Doug _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 28 Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2006 09:15:28 -0500 From: Jay Heltzer Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question To: , , Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Ok, let me try this again. I found on the simplest level to instruct musical ideas by starting with dynamics. A phrase can be developed by any musician, by applying dynamics to it. Take a B flat scale, put some hairpins under it, and suddenly it sounds more interesting than the way it was played prior to that. As for instructing dynamics, start with air speed. Compare it to MPH. Piano needs 10 mph. Forte needs 60 mph. Etc. That?s what I meant. I found that the responses were getting quite complex, and thought that a simple answer could guide the discussion in a specific direction. Jay > From: dslide13@aol.com > Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 21:18:00 -0500 > To: jhfloyd@earthlink.net, jsheridan@usv.k12.oh.us, trombone-l@samford.edu > Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question > > Right...and telling that to a student who already doesn't know anything > will accomplish what??? > > David Gibson > trombonist/educator > www.jazzbone.org > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jay Heltzer > To: Jay Sheridan ; trombone-l@samford.edu > Sent: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 20:41:34 -0500 > Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question > > Idiots guide to playing musically: > > Louder and softer. > > Any questions? > > Jay Heltzer > >> From: "Jay Sheridan" >> Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 14:34:01 -0500 >> To: >> Subject: [Trombone-l] musicianship question >> >> For all those that do any teaching, how do you teach a student (or > group- >> band/orch etc) to play musically? I have tried several different > ways, but >> none seem to be working. I have a group that can perform rhythmically > and in >> tune, but is lacking musically. The group in question is actually a > choir, but >> I usually think in trombone terms when talking to them anyways. >> >> Thanks >> >> Jay Sheridan >> Director of Music >> Upper Scioto Valley Local School >> McGuffey, OH >> jsheridan@usv.k12.oh.us >> _______________________________________________ >> Trombone-l mailing list >> Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > ------------------------------ Message: 29 Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2006 09:57:01 -0500 From: dslide13@aol.com Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question To: TexasTbone@gt.rr.com, jsheridan@usv.k12.oh.us Cc: trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: <8C80C20B205DE6F-11C4-1081B@mblk-r38.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I like this. You're basically walking them through every individual element of sounding musical. They're probably reacting to your instructions in a mechanical way, but the hope is that they'll develop a musical intuition that will eventually allow them to anticipate what you would normally tell them. David Gibson trombonist/educator www.jazzbone.org -----Original Message----- From: Wayne Dyess To: Jay Sheridan Cc: trombone-l@samford.edu Sent: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 22:57:34 -0600 Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question I have found that most school groups need some direction to sound musical. I have them write in little things that are not in the printed music. Hairpins, accents, dynamic contrasts... contouring a line to follow the melodic content. There is great book that was published by Vandercook simply called "Expression" that lays out a pretty good plan for teaching musicianship. I don't know if it is still in print, but it sure helped me when I was first teaching (in those days, jr. high band). The ideas I learned from that have carried me through my now 30th year of teaching at the college level... and I still use many of the techniques presented in the Vandercook paperback. Terrific book. Dynamics are given numbers.... 1 the softest... 10 the loudest. A jr. high band might only get 4 to 7 or 8 with good taste and tone quality. A high school band should be able to go from 2 to 9. College, the full range hopefully. That was but one of the techniques used to teach musicianship. Fun topic. Good luck! Wayne Dyess On Mar 1, 2006, at 1:34 PM, Jay Sheridan wrote: > For all those that do any teaching, how do you teach a student (or > group- band/orch etc) to play musically? I have tried several > different ways, but none seem to be working. I have a group that can > perform rhythmically and in tune, but is lacking musically. The group > in question is actually a choir, but I usually think in trombone terms > when talking to them anyways. > > Thanks > > Jay Sheridan > Director of Music > Upper Scioto Valley Local School > McGuffey, OH > jsheridan@usv.k12.oh.us > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > Dr. Wayne Dyess, Professor of Trombone and Director of Jazz Studies Lamar University Dept. of Music, Theatre & Dance P. O. Box 10044 Beaumont, Texas 77710 409-880-8146 http://lamar.edu/ _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 30 Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2006 10:04:57 -0500 From: dslide13@aol.com Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question To: jhfloyd@earthlink.net, jsheridan@usv.k12.oh.us, trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: <8C80C21CE2624BB-11C4-108BC@mblk-r38.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed I hear you. That's sometimes the difficulty of these venues. To expand on your idea. I was always encouraged to follow the contour of the line. When the line ascended, I would crescendo and vice-versa. This has been a good rule of thumb to teach my students also. But, once they get the hang of it, I tell them to do the opposite in order to experience and alternative effect. The results are usually interesting. Most students experience the epiphany of knowing how to interact with the written page. They realize that they have some role in what the audience experiences. It isn't all up to the composer. But, as Uncle Ben said, "With great power comes great responsibility."...or something like that. David Gibson trombonist/educator www.jazzbone.org -----Original Message----- From: Jay Heltzer To: dslide13@aol.com; jsheridan@usv.k12.oh.us; trombone-l@samford.edu Sent: Thu, 02 Mar 2006 09:15:28 -0500 Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question Ok, let me try this again. I found on the simplest level to instruct musical ideas by starting with dynamics. A phrase can be developed by any musician, by applying dynamics to it. Take a B flat scale, put some hairpins under it, and suddenly it sounds more interesting than the way it was played prior to that. As for instructing dynamics, start with air speed. Compare it to MPH. Piano needs 10 mph. Forte needs 60 mph. Etc. That?s what I meant. I found that the responses were getting quite complex, and thought that a simple answer could guide the discussion in a specific direction. Jay > From: dslide13@aol.com > Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 21:18:00 -0500 > To: jhfloyd@earthlink.net, jsheridan@usv.k12.oh.us, trombone-l@samford.edu > Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question > > Right...and telling that to a student who already doesn't know anything > will accomplish what??? > > David Gibson > trombonist/educator > www.jazzbone.org > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jay Heltzer > To: Jay Sheridan ; trombone-l@samford.edu > Sent: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 20:41:34 -0500 > Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question > > Idiots guide to playing musically: > > Louder and softer. > > Any questions? > > Jay Heltzer > >> From: "Jay Sheridan" >> Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 14:34:01 -0500 >> To: >> Subject: [Trombone-l] musicianship question >> >> For all those that do any teaching, how do you teach a student (or > group- >> band/orch etc) to play musically? I have tried several different > ways, but >> none seem to be working. I have a group that can perform rhythmically > and in >> tune, but is lacking musically. The group in question is actually a > choir, but >> I usually think in trombone terms when talking to them anyways. >> >> Thanks >> >> Jay Sheridan >> Director of Music >> Upper Scioto Valley Local School >> McGuffey, OH >> jsheridan@usv.k12.oh.us >> _______________________________________________ >> Trombone-l mailing list >> Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > ------------------------------ Message: 31 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 11:23:33 EST From: BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] musicianship question To: jhfloyd@earthlink.net, Dslide13@aol.com, jsheridan@usv.k12.oh.us, trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Simple answer: a very old drummer we had in our outfit used to say when we hit the groove and most of it was improv. "You know you got it when you sense you are playing belly rubbin' music." Alas he is now gone from this world. Hope he is getting his drummer licks in somewhere. beldon wade ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l End of Trombone-l Digest, Vol 14, Issue 2 *****************************************