Subject: Trombone-l Digest, Vol 13, Issue 9 Date: Thursday, February 9, 2006 12:00 PM From: trombone-l-request@samford.edu Reply-To: trombone-l@samford.edu To: Conversation: Trombone-l Digest, Vol 13, Issue 9 Send Trombone-l mailing list submissions to trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to trombone-l-request@maillists.samford.edu You can reach the person managing the list at trombone-l-owner@maillists.samford.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Trombone-l digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Vibrato - yeah or nay (BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com) 2. Re: Vibrato - yeah or nay (Daniel Pliskin) 3. Re: Vibrato - yeah or nay (dslide13@aol.com) 4. telephone game was Re: Vibrato - yeah or nay (Jeff Albert) 5. Re: telephone game was Re: Vibrato - yeah or nay (dslide13@aol.com) 6. Vibrato - yeah or nay (Richardson, Timothy Mr. DAC USAG Franconia DPW) 7. Grammys Who Dunnit (Daryl Burch) 8. Re: Vibrato - yeah or nay (Stephen Troy) 9. Re: Vibrato - yeah or nay (George Carr) 10. Re: historical playing, was telephone game (George Carr) 11. Re: Vibrato - yeah or nay (George Carr) 12. Re: Vibrato - yeah or nay (BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com) 13. Re: historical playing, was telephone game (Steve Gamble) 14. Re: Vibrato - yeah or nay (Steve Gamble) 15. Re: Vibrato - yeah or nay (Adrian Drover) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 13:08:06 EST From: BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay To: georgecarr@gmail.com, trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: <1c6.3a3cb16d.311b8d86@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Last nite, I listened to the Moody Radio Station, Mike Kellogg DJ. He played several symphony pieces and the vibrato was quite clear on most of them. The groups were both Europaen and US. Some were old some were newer groups. He comes on the air about 1:00 AM and leaves the air at 5:00 AM EST. He can be heard on computer, or you may have a Moody affilliate in your neighborhood. He plays some great music. beldon Wade ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 21:43:28 +0000 From: "Daniel Pliskin" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay To: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Vibrato, gut strings or whatever, >those orchestras produced a much more luminous string sound that >either Norrington got from Stuttgart or PI groups get from their >viols. Draw from this what we may. It's much harder to get a vibrato with gut and nylon strings, than it is with metal strings. And if the strings weren't using it, then it probably wasn't being used in the brass section, either. On the other hand, it's actually hard to play oboe without vibrato. Go figure... DanP ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 19:52:10 -0500 From: dslide13@aol.com Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay To: daniel_pliskin@hotmail.com, TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <8C7FB2A312CCAEC-2EC-92E@MBLK-M40.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I don't have anything additional to add to this topic, except to say that it's amazing to be at this point in the discussion from where we began. Here we are discussing the history of vibrato in a string orchestra while we began discussing whether or not it's tasteful to use vibrato on the last chord of a big band orchestration if you play lead bone. It's like the telephone game times ten. David Gibson trombonist/educator www.jazzbone.org -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Pliskin To: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Sent: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 21:43:28 +0000 Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay >Vibrato, gut strings or whatever, >those orchestras produced a much more luminous string sound that >either Norrington got from Stuttgart or PI groups get from their >viols. Draw from this what we may. It's much harder to get a vibrato with gut and nylon strings, than it is with metal strings. And if the strings weren't using it, then it probably wasn't being used in the brass section, either. On the other hand, it's actually hard to play oboe without vibrato. Go figure... DanP _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 19:24:20 -0600 From: Jeff Albert Subject: [Trombone-l] telephone game was Re: Vibrato - yeah or nay To: dslide13@aol.com Cc: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Yeah, but it can be a cool journey sometimes. This particular one lost me many posts ago, but i would never discourage wandering off topic, because we often end up in cool places...and I'm sure string vibrato history is a cool place for someone. Jeff On Feb 8, 2006, at 6:52 PM, dslide13@aol.com wrote: > I don't have anything additional to add to this topic, except to say > that it's amazing to be at this point in the discussion from where we > began. Here we are discussing the history of vibrato in a string > orchestra while we began discussing whether or not it's tasteful to > use > vibrato on the last chord of a big band orchestration if you play lead > bone. It's like the telephone game times ten. > > David Gibson > trombonist/educator > www.jazzbone.org > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Daniel Pliskin > To: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu > Sent: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 21:43:28 +0000 > Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay > > >> Vibrato, gut strings or whatever, >> those orchestras produced a much more luminous string sound that >> either Norrington got from Stuttgart or PI groups get from their >> viols. Draw from this what we may. > > It's much harder to get a vibrato with gut and nylon strings, than it > is > with metal strings. And if the strings weren't using it, then it > probably > wasn't being used in the brass section, either. On the other hand, > it's > actually hard to play oboe without vibrato. Go figure... > > DanP > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 23:11:05 -0500 From: dslide13@aol.com Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] telephone game was Re: Vibrato - yeah or nay To: jeff@jeffalbert.com Cc: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <8C7FB45FB68B8AE-115C-103CA@mblk-r36.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed My acknowledgement was not meant to be critical. I find it interesting where the discussion has ended up. It's kind of like when I'm talking to someone about something and then I start off on a tangent to further explain the details of one facet of the story in order to give perspective and then make my way back to the original story which....wait, what was I saying??? I guess I'm saying, I thought these types of conversations only happened inside my head. It's apparent to me now that they also happen on the world wide web. Thanks, Al. David Gibson trombonist/educator www.jazzbone.org -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Albert To: dslide13@aol.com Cc: daniel_pliskin@hotmail.com; TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Sent: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 19:24:20 -0600 Subject: telephone game was Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay Yeah, but it can be a cool journey sometimes. This particular one lost me many posts ago, but i would never discourage wandering off topic, because we often end up in cool places...and I'm sure string vibrato history is a cool place for someone. Jeff On Feb 8, 2006, at 6:52 PM, dslide13@aol.com wrote: > I don't have anything additional to add to this topic, except to say > that it's amazing to be at this point in the discussion from where we > began. Here we are discussing the history of vibrato in a string > orchestra while we began discussing whether or not it's tasteful to > use > vibrato on the last chord of a big band orchestration if you play lead > bone. It's like the telephone game times ten. > > David Gibson > trombonist/educator > www.jazzbone.org > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Daniel Pliskin > To: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu > Sent: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 21:43:28 +0000 > Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay > > >> Vibrato, gut strings or whatever, >> those orchestras produced a much more luminous string sound that >> either Norrington got from Stuttgart or PI groups get from their >> viols. Draw from this what we may. > > It's much harder to get a vibrato with gut and nylon strings, than it > is > with metal strings. And if the strings weren't using it, then it > probably > wasn't being used in the brass section, either. On the other hand, > it's > actually hard to play oboe without vibrato. Go figure... > > DanP > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 08:44:17 +0100 From: "Richardson, Timothy Mr. DAC USAG Franconia DPW" Subject: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay To: Trombone-L Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain In all the discussions of performance practice so far, I haven't seen the British brass band tradition mentioned. I've never played in one (have sat in with a US version of one once and enjoyed it) but the recordings I've heard have featured quite a large amount of constant vibrato across the different sections. Can anyone offer insight into this one? How long, did it derive from or affect nonbrassband practice, etc.? Or is this just one of those unique "Mad Dogs and Englishman" mysteries? -- ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 00:12:12 -0800 From: Daryl Burch Subject: [Trombone-l] Grammys Who Dunnit To: List Trombone Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Soooooooooo...... Who was the horn section backing up the New Orleans tribute at the end o' the night? The tribute itself was much less your typical star-studded wank-fest. (Those things tend to get wayYYYyy out of hand.) And the horn section seemed pretty solid. Cheers! -D- www.radionoise.com <- Rock star by night www.burchinteractive.com <- Tech-nerd by day #;-) ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 08:20:28 -0500 From: Stephen Troy Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay To: Trombone-L Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20060209082028.009993f0@pop.erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:44 AM 02/09/2006 +0100, Timothy Richardson wrote: > In all the discussions of performance practice so far, I haven't seen the >British brass band tradition mentioned. > >Can anyone offer insight into this one? How long, did it derive from or >affect nonbrassband practice, etc.? Or is this just one of those unique >"Mad Dogs and Englishman" mysteries? The story I've heard is that during the formative days of British brass bands, the only exposure to live performances in most areas was from travelling opera singers (this was before the days of recordings). The uber-vibrato of the brass bands is supposedly based on what everyone heard coming out of these singers (unfortunately). ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 10:26:32 -0500 From: George Carr Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay To: "dslide13@aol.com" Cc: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > it's amazing to be at this point in the discussion from where we > began. Here we are discussing the history of vibrato in a string > orchestra while we began discussing whether or not it's tasteful to use > vibrato on the last chord of a big band orchestration if you play lead > bone. It's not telephone, it's the wandering of conversation. Like I can start out talking about how my three-month-old didn't sleep much last night, and talk turns to insomnia, and late-night gigs, and then to road bands, and inevitably to Buddy Rich's firing his trombone player. It's not like my daughter has any connection to Buddy, but it's the way conversation flows, both in real life and in Internet threads. Let me re-cap the vibrato discussion: 1 - lead trumpet players often have little expertise in what trombone players do to make them sound great, esp. regarding vibrato and pitch 2 - vibrato is generally helpful in "warming up" long notes and is often appropriate in jazz ensemble playing, despite what section trumpeters might think or say 3 - straight no-vib tones are generally helpful in adding energy and power to brass chords, although they greatly expose pitch problems (and require good breathing) 4 - there is little pattern in the historical evidence about the use of vibrato in jazz, except that everybody, both section players and soloists, used it often 5 - vibrato was generally less favored by be-bop and post-bop ensembles and soloists 6 - there is lots of room for debate about how vibrato developed and cross-fertilized before WW2 Fair enough? George ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 10:39:56 -0500 From: George Carr Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] historical playing, was telephone game To: Jeff Albert Cc: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > This particular one > lost me many posts ago, but i would never discourage wandering off > topic, because we often end up in cool places...and I'm sure string > vibrato history is a cool place for someone. Well, then, let's bring it back to the trombone. I'm sure lots of folks on the list play "repertory" music, whether orchestral or jazz or both - is it more appropriate to try to play "like the record" or "like we usually sound"? To put this in academic language, should we try to duplicate the performance practices of the "original" artists or should we use modern practices and/or equipment? Just a few jazz examples: using a 562-bore trombone to play 2nd trombone on 2-bone charts; using matched section vibrato (!) on Glenn Miller repertoire; adding 3rd and 4th trombone parts to older repertoire(or doubling the two original parts at the octave); using doodle tonguing on pre-bop lines. Just a few orchestral/chamber examples: using a 562-bore trombone in a brass quintet (for the trombone book, not the tuba book); rewriting orchestral parts to move pedal tones from the 2nd trombone book to the 3rd (or 4th); using modern/modest vibrato on 19th-century repertoire that begs for heavier vibrato; "sounding like a trombone" when covering other parts on trombone (e.g. Wagner tuba, tenor tuba, bass trumpet). All of these are judgment calls that we're asked to make as trombone players. And they're all informed by "the way they used to do it," even when we've conciously chosen to do something "the modern way." The basic goal (as always) is how to be "most musical." But what does that mean? And do we owe anything to the history of the music, in terms of its performance practices? George ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 10:53:01 -0500 From: George Carr Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay To: "Richardson, Timothy Mr. DAC USAG Franconia DPW" Cc: Trombone-L Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > In all the discussions of performance practice so far, I haven't seen the > British brass band tradition mentioned. > > I've never played in one (have sat in with a US version of one once and > enjoyed it) but the recordings I've heard have featured quite a large amount > of constant vibrato across the different sections. > > Can anyone offer insight into this one? How long, did it derive from or > affect nonbrassband practice, etc.? Or is this just one of those unique > "Mad Dogs and Englishman" mysteries? And to tie into the historical chain, how did this affect the early US jazz players? I understand that the brass-band tradition heavily affected early jazz, including the use of cornets instead of trumpets, the tuba (instead of string) bass, and the (relative) prevalence of trombone and lack of guitar. But as to the British ensemble vibrato, I learned that it was based on the orchestral heavy-vibrato tradition: brass bands were trying for a lush, orchestral sound, and the way to do that was with vibrato, just like string orchestras. Personally, I struggled to perform that way, because my training was aimed at clean, clear pitch, but it does sound lush and beautiful when done right. George NABBA Champion '92 ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 11:16:11 EST From: BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay To: Dslide13@aol.com, daniel_pliskin@hotmail.com, TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <23e.69b8da6.311cc4cb@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Metamorphosis No Clones in 'bones. beldon wade ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 09:48:56 -0700 From: "Steve Gamble" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] historical playing, was telephone game To: "George Carr" Cc: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" George said:... And do we owe anything to the history of the music, in terms of its performance practices? Traditions get passed on from one generation of musician to the next. If it were left up to the players in an orchestra, it's hard for me to see how performances wouldn't strongly reflect their training, even if various individual players would like to be doing something radically different. The average would certainly lean toward traditional, automatically paying what is owed to the history of music. It's conductors (or band leaders) wanting to put their stamp on a piece of music that brings about revolutionary interpretation. Of course, individual musicians/artists will always express things uniquely; exact duplication of some perceived historical practice is not possible. That's what makes a performance of, say, Beethoven Symphony No. 5, not just some artifact in a museum. I hope that this will help clarify my point: Last season, we did a program with a group impersonating the Beatles. It was a very successful program in terms of audience enthusiasm. The band didn't sound all that much like the Beatles, but close enough so that all those Beatles fans out their had a great time. The marketing folks like that kind of success so we are currently in rehearsal for a show that features a Frank Sinatra impersonator (a very popular show around the country). The singer really sounds like Sinatra. I'm sure that most of our pops audience will be impressed. And why shouldn't they be? The singer has skill. But I find myself thinking "so what" in reaction to the show. This is shaping up to be an artifact-in-a-museum kind of show...not quite as interesting without the contemporary feel that comes when the listener can get a sense of the art coming from the artist doing the Sinatra songs. The Beatles show had that subtle contemporary element that made it more of an artistic experience. Steve Gamble, Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 (520) 792-9155 x118 (520) 792-9314 fax (520) 991-7056 cel sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org -----Original Message----- From: trombone-l-bounces@samford.edu [mailto:trombone-l-bounces@samford.edu] On Behalf Of George Carr Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 8:40 AM To: Jeff Albert Cc: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] historical playing, was telephone game > This particular one > lost me many posts ago, but i would never discourage wandering off > topic, because we often end up in cool places...and I'm sure string > vibrato history is a cool place for someone. Well, then, let's bring it back to the trombone. I'm sure lots of folks on the list play "repertory" music, whether orchestral or jazz or both - is it more appropriate to try to play "like the record" or "like we usually sound"? To put this in academic language, should we try to duplicate the performance practices of the "original" artists or should we use modern practices and/or equipment? Just a few jazz examples: using a 562-bore trombone to play 2nd trombone on 2-bone charts; using matched section vibrato (!) on Glenn Miller repertoire; adding 3rd and 4th trombone parts to older repertoire(or doubling the two original parts at the octave); using doodle tonguing on pre-bop lines. Just a few orchestral/chamber examples: using a 562-bore trombone in a brass quintet (for the trombone book, not the tuba book); rewriting orchestral parts to move pedal tones from the 2nd trombone book to the 3rd (or 4th); using modern/modest vibrato on 19th-century repertoire that begs for heavier vibrato; "sounding like a trombone" when covering other parts on trombone (e.g. Wagner tuba, tenor tuba, bass trumpet). All of these are judgment calls that we're asked to make as trombone players. And they're all informed by "the way they used to do it," even when we've conciously chosen to do something "the modern way." The basic goal (as always) is how to be "most musical." But what does that mean? And do we owe anything to the history of the music, in terms of its performance practices? George _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 10:08:46 -0700 From: "Steve Gamble" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay To: , Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hey beldon, For a second there, I thought you were sending us Haiku. How about... No clones in da 'bones One player teaches the next Metamorphosis Steve Gamble, Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 (520) 792-9155 x118 (520) 792-9314 fax (520) 991-7056 cel sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org -----Original Message----- From: trombone-l-bounces@samford.edu [mailto:trombone-l-bounces@samford.edu] On Behalf Of BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 9:16 AM To: Dslide13@aol.com; daniel_pliskin@hotmail.com; TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay Metamorphosis No Clones in 'bones. beldon wade _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 17:30:43 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay To: "'Richardson, Timothy Mr. DAC USAG Franconia DPW'" , "'Trombone-L'" Message-ID: <003101c62d9e$8e22dd10$0100a8c0@Adrian> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > From: Richardson, Timothy Mr. DAC USAG > > In all the discussions of performance practice so far, I haven't seen the > British brass band tradition mentioned. > > I've never played in one (have sat in with a US version of one once and > enjoyed it) but the recordings I've heard have featured quite a large > amount > of constant vibrato across the different sections. > > Can anyone offer insight into this one? How long, did it derive from or > affect nonbrassband practice, etc.? Or is this just one of those unique > "Mad Dogs and Englishman" mysteries? I would say that the modern brass band sounds a lot different today than it did when I was a kid. The amount of vibrato used now is very much less than on old recordings. Styles evolve. Listen to the amount of vibrato used in the Glenn Miller saxes with clarinet lead of the '40s. Were they trying to emulate strings? Modern big band sax sections don't sound that way today. Listen to the Dorsey style vibrato used in the big bands of yeteryear. That all changed when Kai Winding took over the lead chair in the Kenton band. Styles evolve..... .....except in opera singers maybe. A. ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l End of Trombone-l Digest, Vol 13, Issue 9 *****************************************