Subject: Trombone-l Digest, Vol 13, Issue 5 Date: Sunday, February 5, 2006 12:00 PM From: trombone-l-request@samford.edu Reply-To: trombone-l@samford.edu To: Conversation: Trombone-l Digest, Vol 13, Issue 5 Send Trombone-l mailing list submissions to trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to trombone-l-request@maillists.samford.edu You can reach the person managing the list at trombone-l-owner@maillists.samford.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Trombone-l digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Vibrato - yeah or nay (Eric & Candice Swanson) 2. Re: Classic Chet (Stan Brager) 3. Re: Milhaud Concertino D'Hiver (accessibility) (David Oliver) 4. Re: Classic Chet (Chris Tune) 5. Re: Vibrato - yeah or nay (Daryl Burch) 6. Re: Vibrato - yeah or nay (Chris Tune) 7. Re: Vibrato - yeah or nay (Mikel K. Smith) 8. Re: Vibrato - yeah or nay (Chris Tune) 9. Re: Vibrato - yeah or nay (dslide13@aol.com) 10. Re: Vibrato - yeah or nay (dslide13@aol.com) 11. Re: Vibrato - yeah or nay (Pat McFarland) 12. Re: Vibrato - yeah or nay (Wayne Dyess) 13. Re: Vibrato - yeah or nay (Chris Tune) 14. Re: Classic Chet (Alby Tbone) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 12:19:53 -0600 From: Eric & Candice Swanson Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay To: trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: <43E4F049.5000000@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mikel K. Smith wrote: >Had a trumpet player rather rudely chastise me for using vibrato at a big >band rehearsal a couple nights ago. The situation was the final 'scream' >ending of an up tempo piece (can't even remember what it was right now); I >was on lead, ending on a high C. I did my usual delayed vibrato, holding >the note for the first couple beats, then finishing it with a fast slide >vibrato - I probably ended the vibrato with a quick gliss down off the note; >I usually do on a high final note. He 'instructed' me that bones should >never vibrato when playing part of a chord; only in solo situations. I >disagree, but there is the possibility I'm just a hot dog like he accused me >of being. What does everyone else do in situations like this (the vibrato, >not the butt hole trumpet player)? > > Mikel, I'd have to say he's right. Generally only use vibrato when you're playing solo or the trombones are playing alone as a section. There are exceptions depending on the style of music. The guy didn't have to be a jerk about it though. Eric Swanson ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 15:48:51 -0800 From: "Stan Brager" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Classic Chet To: "Bill Dinwiddie" , "List Trombone" Message-ID: <00ec01c625f7$ba5377e0$6501a8c0@jazzman> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bill and others; That's one of those stories which have passed into jazz lore without much basis in fact. That story has also been said about Tony Scott. It's like the story seen in jazz literature that Charlie Barnet played chimes on Duke Ellington's recording of "Ring Dem Bells". Never happened. Stan Stan Brager ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Dinwiddie" To: "List Trombone" Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 9:59 AM Subject: [Trombone-l] Classic Chet > Dave said: > > "Anyway...Chet is set to play the gig and the promoter is introducing > him to the cats. He tells Chet that Romano is the son of Mussolini, to > which Chet replies, "Hey man...sorry about your dad." > > That is certainly a classic story and I have heard it many times, although > with the slight alteration of : > "Hey man...sorry about your ol' man." > > Either way it's a great jazz anecdote. > > Bill Dinwiddie > > > > > > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 13:25:55 -0700 From: "David Oliver" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Milhaud Concertino D'Hiver (accessibility) To: "Glendening, Andrew" , "Trb. List" , "Richardson, Timothy Mr. DAC USAG Franconia DPW" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This is a *great* e-mail Tim! The Colorado Symphony Orchestra principal trombone (John Daley) performed the Grondahl about 4 years ago (from memory of course) and it was a great experience. Of course I knew how it went note for note from having the Lindberg recording and others, but I got the feeling that the audience really enjoyed it as music. Those great melodies are independent of the fact that a trombone is making the melody. I don't think John has gotten the opportunity to perform additional solos with the CSO since, but I enjoyed that one local "moment in the sun" for the trombone. David Oliver Broomfield, CO USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richardson, Timothy Mr. DAC USAG Franconia DPW" To: "Glendening, Andrew" ; "Trb. List" Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 12:35 AM Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Milhaud Concertino D'Hiver > I took some friends to an ETW concert, the Grand Finale where featured > soloists play concerto after concerto. They were not trombone players and > not musically sophisticated, but not total rednecks either, just general > public initially willing to come to a serious music oncert. > > They haven't spoken to me since. > > This music was not accessible. An overdose of it went beyond > inaccessible, > to painful. > > One comment they had was, "there's no melody. It's just all big jumps." > And there's more truth in that than I'd realized, once I tried to listen > through their ears. The soloists were fantastic. They played at least > flawlessly, usually musically, but this wasn't enough. > > Of course Sturgeon's law applies, 90% of anything is garbage, and over > time > gets discarded while the good stuff remains. > > And I don't think this criticism is unique to trombone. I have > occasionally > heard a work for trumpet, etc., that had the same problems. But it seems > to > be worse for us, at least with the works I've heard. > > When you listen to a concerto, you should think (or rather, feel) that it > was great music and you were really moved. But with trombone concertos > too > often I react more like, "Holy Carp, how did he do that? I could never > play > that!" > > Doug Yeo played the Brubeck at a Pops Concert some years back. It was an > inspired choice, I thought. It had melody, it never sounded difficult > (part > of that was superb execution, of course, but much of it is also writing > that > eschewed gratuitous technicality) and it was listenable without being pop > or elevator music. There aren't many other trombone pieces that would fit > those criteria. > > Almost enough ranting. Two points. One, trombone players are in general > terrible judges of what an audience might think of a piece. For the most > part we cannot put ourselves in their ears. Two, (and proof of point one) > what's up with mutes? A large number of concertos included muted > sections. > Performers bring out a music stand and set 3 to 5 mutes there. Even if > they've memorized and don't need a stand for the music! To the average > classical music audience, the mutes do not add, they detract. They break > the flow both visually and aurally, and the audience really doesn't > understand why you would take the tone you worked years to achieve and > make > it worse voluntarily. I think they conclude it's one of those annoying > mandatory elements, like in a figure skater's formal routine. > ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 13:17:24 -0800 From: "Chris Tune" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Classic Chet To: "Stan Brager" , "Bill Dinwiddie" , "List Trombone" Message-ID: <007a01c629d0$65810b10$0400a8c0@athlon2800> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original It's better if you get your story only shortly removed from the REAL people involved. I've got a pretty good couple: Trombonist friend of mine tells me about his dad, a commercial pilot who flew lots of "charter" flights. Dad tells him about some kind of big band he had on board during the heydey of the Swing Era. He said that the WEIRD thing about the flight was that no sooner did they take off and get underway than he smells this funny smell throughout the airplane. He goes and investigates and finds out that the BANDLEADER and a bunch of the musicians are back in the passenger cabin SMOKING DOPE. He decides there probably isn't much he can do and returns to the pilot's cabin. He further tells his son that he doesn't remember the name of the band. My friend thinks for a second and says: "It wouldn't have been Charlie Barnet, would it?" Dad: "That's the BAND!. How did you know?" :-) (some groups had a "certain" reputation) HARRY JAMES I've also heard (from a sax player I KNOW played with that band) that Harry James's band was touring through the SOUTH, when, in the middle of the night the band manager yelled "STOP THE BUS". Pretty soon everybody was getting out big bags. . .pillowcases. . .what have you, kinda containers. . .and they were all trooping off the buss. My buddy asked: "What's going on?" A friend handed him a pillow case and said "HERE! Follow me". So he did . . . Turns out they were at a special, little known stand of naturally growing Marijuana--way out in the wild. Harry had the manager get him a bunch for himself (didn't feel like groping around down there grabing plants). They all got as much as they could carry I imagine. My buddy got a lift that he had not expected on this run of the bus. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stan Brager" To: "Bill Dinwiddie" ; "List Trombone" Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Classic Chet > Bill and others; > > That's one of those stories which have passed into jazz lore without much > basis in fact. That story has also been said about Tony Scott. > > It's like the story seen in jazz literature that Charlie Barnet played > chimes on Duke Ellington's recording of "Ring Dem Bells". Never happened. > > Stan > Stan Brager > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Dinwiddie" > To: "List Trombone" > Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 9:59 AM > Subject: [Trombone-l] Classic Chet > > >> Dave said: >> >> "Anyway...Chet is set to play the gig and the promoter is introducing >> him to the cats. He tells Chet that Romano is the son of Mussolini, to >> which Chet replies, "Hey man...sorry about your dad." >> >> That is certainly a classic story and I have heard it many times, >> although >> with the slight alteration of : >> "Hey man...sorry about your ol' man." >> >> Either way it's a great jazz anecdote. >> >> Bill Dinwiddie >> >> >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 13:14:02 -0800 From: Daryl Burch Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay To: swan325@earthlink.net Cc: trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: <9ba6889ab5af5bc8ae9d3b593d00cc64@speakeasy.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Now REAAALLLY! Is it SO wrong to make a lead trumpet sweat now and then!? I personally think the amount of support given to said lead player is directly proportional to A) the size of his ego, and 2) how much he pounds it on everybody's head that he's THE lead player... ...but I digress. Reminds me of a light bulb joke or two.... Cheers! -D- www.radionoise.com <- Rock star by night www.burchinteractive.com <- Tech-nerd by day #;-) On Feb 4, 2006, at 10:19 AM, Eric & Candice Swanson wrote: > Mikel K. Smith wrote: > >> Had a trumpet player rather rudely chastise me for using vibrato at a >> big >> band rehearsal a couple nights ago. The situation was the final >> 'scream' >> ending of an up tempo piece (can't even remember what it was right >> now); I >> was on lead, ending on a high C. I did my usual delayed vibrato, >> holding >> the note for the first couple beats, then finishing it with a fast >> slide >> vibrato - I probably ended the vibrato with a quick gliss down off >> the note; >> I usually do on a high final note. He 'instructed' me that bones >> should >> never vibrato when playing part of a chord; only in solo situations. >> I >> disagree, but there is the possibility I'm just a hot dog like he >> accused me >> of being. What does everyone else do in situations like this (the >> vibrato, >> not the butt hole trumpet player)? >> >> > > Mikel, > > I'd have to say he's right. Generally only use vibrato when you're > playing solo or the trombones are playing alone as a section. There > are > exceptions depending on the style of music. > > The guy didn't have to be a jerk about it though. > > Eric Swanson > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 13:46:08 -0800 From: "Chris Tune" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay To: , , Message-ID: <008501c629d4$69037e40$0400a8c0@athlon2800> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original It is CERTAINLY not true that you do not vibrato when playing as part of a chord. That is actually most likely WHEN you vibrato as part of an ensemble section (of course it might be nice if most of the players agreed and actually vibrated). Also, you generally DO NOT vibrato as part of a section when you have UNISON. The unison creates an effect very similar to an electronic "CHORUS" device. The very slight differences in phase and (hopefully very slight) pitch cause this effect. The effect is SMOOTH enough that vibrato is simply not of any use and actually just "muddies" up the unison bone sound. In Swing Era big band music, you would see a "Cantabile" Soli section in a trombone section and the ENTIRE section (possibly excluding the bass bone if the range is below a certain point) would do a quick rate slide vibrato. This is easily heard on any Tommy Dorsey Orchestra recording. Even groups like Kenton played this way until some changes in style occurred in the late fourties and early fifties. [MYTH NOTE-In the nineteen fifties the styles changed so that jazz musicians removed much of the vibrato approach that existed in the 1930's and 1940's. The idea was that jazz simply was much more vibrato-less. . .or the vibrato that was used was usually radically different -- perhaps slower and wider or "terminal" like you describe. Traditional Vocal-Style Vibrato (listen to good singers to learn how this stuff works--e.g. Ella Fitzgeral, Frank Sinatra) still was used in the studios. . .behind singers. . .at Hoyt's Gargage. . and elsewhere. . .BUT many began to view vibrato as generally "HOKEY", old fashioned, etc.. . .that myth still exists today with, perhaps a few players like Bill Watrous doing a good job at removing the mythology. . .Simply put--VIBRATO CAN BE USEFUL AND MUSICAL. . .you simply have to know what you are doing. . . . many do not know much about it. . . that is because of the STUPID MYTH. . .thus, no experience. . .thus very little musical use of vibrato. . .] I'd say that it is ALSO perfectly good to vibrato in louder shout sections (as part of the held chord music during the middle of other stuff), but care must be taken to not intrude upon the overall sound of the ensemble. I'd say that your description of how you vibratoed sounds a bit too "stylized" and therefore maybe too noticeable. It's hard to say without actually hearing it. Of course, if you are playing a TROMBONE SOLO. .or feature you can decide to use a very stylized vibrato of your own design. . .you are now in the driver seat without a doubt! Also, having many recordings now of bands I can TESTIFY. . .what you THINK is too, too obvious sitting just a few feet away (like the distance from lead trumpet to lead bone. . or from bone player to neighbor). . is actually, generally nowhere are noticeable on going out into the audience. Lead trumpet players usually are not the greatest analysts of how to handle the end note (I say this SADLY). Many of these guys and gals have all kind of crazy notions of how this is THEIR domain. . .the place where they hang way over (not following the cutoff . . .but rather making a stylized hang over of loud trumpet scream "hang over"). Or they decide that this is the time to TRY and take the end note up an octave, or THREE, or something like that (or worse they and maybe a couple other players start changing the notes. . .and maybe FAIL to hit their stuper-Maynard high note). The lead trumpeter may also be so egotistical as to dream that ANYTHING that he doesn't DICTATE is simply NOT DONE. If that were the case, the world of big band music would be a pretty boring place filled with folk taking everything up an octave. . NEVER vibratoing.. . .and generally sounding . . .well, you can imagine!. If you actually listen to the really world class bands, the whole deal is much more cooperative, involves direction from the leader, and the band generally cuts off EXACTLY TOGETHER!!!! Of course, these previous statements do depend upon the actual trumpet players, exact situation and the frequency with which any effect has been used. I am lucky to play in SOME groups where the lead trumpet player and EVERYBODY all listen to one another and come up with an "on-the-fly", "compromise" style. The vibrato generally comes out when the "sweeter" parts of the tune occur, or when it makes sense to "warm up" the tone a bit. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay > I'd do what the lead player wanted me to do. My personal taste is to > use the vibrato little if at all. There is certainly a school of > thought that would advocate more vibrato than I use, but in brass > ensemble sections I'm not the lead player. When it's a bone soli, I > may engage the vibrato. > > The other issue is how the lead bone supports the lead trumpet. When > I'm playing lead, I'm extremely conscious of my intonation in relation > to the lead trumpet. If I'm riding the high side of the pitch, right > or wrong, then I'm forcing the lead trumpet player to reach higher for > his notes and possibly making him work harder. So, I try and put my > pitch right in the middle so he can settle in. I can see how using > vibrato on a brass chord could make the lead trumpet player feel > uncomfortable with his pitch, chops, etc... > > > David Gibson > trombonist/educator > www.jazzbone.org > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mikel K. Smith > To: trombone-l@samford.edu > Sent: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 10:34:01 -0500 > Subject: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay > > > Had a trumpet player rather rudely chastise me for using vibrato at a > big > band rehearsal a couple nights ago. The situation was the final > 'scream' > ending of an up tempo piece (can't even remember what it was right > now); I > was on lead, ending on a high C. I did my usual delayed vibrato, > holding > the note for the first couple beats, then finishing it with a fast slide > vibrato - I probably ended the vibrato with a quick gliss down off the > note; > I usually do on a high final note. He 'instructed' me that bones should > never vibrato when playing part of a chord; only in solo situations. I > disagree, but there is the possibility I'm just a hot dog like he > accused me > of being. What does everyone else do in situations like this (the > vibrato, > not the butt hole trumpet player)? > Mikel > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 18:00:20 -0500 From: "Mikel K. Smith" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The guy is neither the band leader, nor lead trumpet. I pretty much ignored his remark at the time, so I don't know that the leader (and lead trumpet) was even aware of it. FWIW, the lead is a lifelong professional musician, and has never commented on my vibrato one way or another, while the guy who did is a weekend warrior; CPA in real life. Mikel -----Original Message----- From: dslide13@aol.com [mailto:dslide13@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 12:50 PM To: mikelksmith@verizon.net; trombone-l@samford.edu Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay I'd do what the lead player wanted me to do. My personal taste is to use the vibrato little if at all. There is certainly a school of thought that would advocate more vibrato than I use, but in brass ensemble sections I'm not the lead player. When it's a bone soli, I may engage the vibrato. The other issue is how the lead bone supports the lead trumpet. When I'm playing lead, I'm extremely conscious of my intonation in relation to the lead trumpet. If I'm riding the high side of the pitch, right or wrong, then I'm forcing the lead trumpet player to reach higher for his notes and possibly making him work harder. So, I try and put my pitch right in the middle so he can settle in. I can see how using vibrato on a brass chord could make the lead trumpet player feel uncomfortable with his pitch, chops, etc... David Gibson trombonist/educator www.jazzbone.org -----Original Message----- From: Mikel K. Smith To: trombone-l@samford.edu Sent: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 10:34:01 -0500 Subject: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay Had a trumpet player rather rudely chastise me for using vibrato at a big band rehearsal a couple nights ago. The situation was the final 'scream' ending of an up tempo piece (can't even remember what it was right now); I was on lead, ending on a high C. I did my usual delayed vibrato, holding the note for the first couple beats, then finishing it with a fast slide vibrato - I probably ended the vibrato with a quick gliss down off the note; I usually do on a high final note. He 'instructed' me that bones should never vibrato when playing part of a chord; only in solo situations. I disagree, but there is the possibility I'm just a hot dog like he accused me of being. What does everyone else do in situations like this (the vibrato, not the butt hole trumpet player)? Mikel _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 15:03:41 -0800 From: "Chris Tune" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay To: "Mikel K. Smith" , Message-ID: <00f301c629df$3dc19360$0400a8c0@athlon2800> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original This brings up an important additional consideration: VOICING. There is a certain, pretty common voicing scheme that has the lead trombone playing an octave lower than the lead trumpet during certain sections. Here you probably do not want vibrato, since you have essentially a sound very akin to the aforementioned UNISON. I will vibrato, however, during this same kind of voicing, if the lead trumpet player seems to want to. I also try and match his/her RATE, and approach to vibrato. But then, I've actually practiced this stuff pretty thoroughly. I know how to vibrato with the jaw and with the slide. Each has a pretty different sound effect at close range. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mikel K. Smith" To: Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 3:00 PM Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay > The guy is neither the band leader, nor lead trumpet. I pretty much > ignored > his remark at the time, so I don't know that the leader (and lead trumpet) > was even aware of it. FWIW, the lead is a lifelong professional musician, > and has never commented on my vibrato one way or another, while the guy > who > did is a weekend warrior; CPA in real life. > > Mikel > > -----Original Message----- > From: dslide13@aol.com [mailto:dslide13@aol.com] > Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 12:50 PM > To: mikelksmith@verizon.net; trombone-l@samford.edu > Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay > > I'd do what the lead player wanted me to do. My personal taste is to > use the vibrato little if at all. There is certainly a school of > thought that would advocate more vibrato than I use, but in brass > ensemble sections I'm not the lead player. When it's a bone soli, I > may engage the vibrato. > > The other issue is how the lead bone supports the lead trumpet. When > I'm playing lead, I'm extremely conscious of my intonation in relation > to the lead trumpet. If I'm riding the high side of the pitch, right > or wrong, then I'm forcing the lead trumpet player to reach higher for > his notes and possibly making him work harder. So, I try and put my > pitch right in the middle so he can settle in. I can see how using > vibrato on a brass chord could make the lead trumpet player feel > uncomfortable with his pitch, chops, etc... > > > David Gibson > trombonist/educator > www.jazzbone.org > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mikel K. Smith > To: trombone-l@samford.edu > Sent: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 10:34:01 -0500 > Subject: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay > > > Had a trumpet player rather rudely chastise me for using vibrato at a > big > band rehearsal a couple nights ago. The situation was the final > 'scream' > ending of an up tempo piece (can't even remember what it was right > now); I > was on lead, ending on a high C. I did my usual delayed vibrato, > holding > the note for the first couple beats, then finishing it with a fast slide > vibrato - I probably ended the vibrato with a quick gliss down off the > note; > I usually do on a high final note. He 'instructed' me that bones should > never vibrato when playing part of a chord; only in solo situations. I > disagree, but there is the possibility I'm just a hot dog like he > accused me > of being. What does everyone else do in situations like this (the > vibrato, > not the butt hole trumpet player)? > Mikel > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 17:57:44 -0500 From: dslide13@aol.com Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay To: crtune@adelphia.net, mikelksmith@verizon.net, trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: <8C7F7F58B834726-1240-1C61@MBLK-M27.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Chris, From your reply, it sounds as though you don't get a chance to play with too many really good lead trumpet players. I'm not talking about "high note" guys, but instead "musicians" capable of high playing and lyrical phrasing. People like John Eckert or Frank Green. In response to your exclamation that "It is CERTAINLY not true that you do not vibrato when playing as part of a chord", I feel like you're making an assumption about my post. I simply stated that, "I can see how using vibrato on a brass chord could make the lead trumpet player feel uncomfortable with his pitch, chops, etc..." I never claimed that you should never use vibrato in a brass chord, but instead I tried to explain why the lead player in Mikel's example might be irritated. Perhaps another explanation is that the lead trumpet player should set the vibrato for the brass, and Mikel wasn't matching his interpretation. Lastly, I've spent a good portion of my musical life playing in big bands and openly acknowledge that my " personal taste is to use the vibrato little if at all", and that "there is certainly a school of thought that would advocate more vibrato than I use." But, my opinion is VALID. This isn't physics. People do call me for gigs. Some of those are big band gigs. In fact, I've even been requested at times by a lead trumpet player on some big band gigs. The explanation that I neglected to mention for the agitation of the Mikel's lead trpt player is ego. I'm not accusing Mikel or the trpt player of having an overactive ego. But if this lead player takes seriously their responsibility to establish the character of the band, then he may frown upon people drawing attention to themselves on the final chords of tunes. It's like the small group jam session where everyone plays a cadenza while the last chord is ringing. It must sound like chaos to the listener. Similarly, if Pandora's box is opened by someone on the last chord of a big band gig, there is the potential for even more chaos. David Gibson trombonist/educator www.jazzbone.org -----Original Message----- From: Chris Tune To: dslide13@aol.com; mikelksmith@verizon.net; trombone-l@samford.edu Sent: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 13:46:08 -0800 Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay It is CERTAINLY not true that you do not vibrato when playing as part of a chord. That is actually most likely WHEN you vibrato as part of an ensemble section (of course it might be nice if most of the players agreed and actually vibrated). Also, you generally DO NOT vibrato as part of a section when you have UNISON. The unison creates an effect very similar to an electronic "CHORUS" device. The very slight differences in phase and (hopefully very slight) pitch cause this effect. The effect is SMOOTH enough that vibrato is simply not of any use and actually just "muddies" up the unison bone sound. In Swing Era big band music, you would see a "Cantabile" Soli section in a trombone section and the ENTIRE section (possibly excluding the bass bone if the range is below a certain point) would do a quick rate slide vibrato. This is easily heard on any Tommy Dorsey Orchestra recording. Even groups like Kenton played this way until some changes in style occurred in the late fourties and early fifties. [MYTH NOTE-In the nineteen fifties the styles changed so that jazz musicians removed much of the vibrato approach that existed in the 1930's and 1940's. The idea was that jazz simply was much more vibrato-less. . .or the vibrato that was used was usually radically different -- perhaps slower and wider or "terminal" like you describe. Traditional Vocal-Style Vibrato (listen to good singers to learn how this stuff works--e.g. Ella Fitzgeral, Frank Sinatra) still was used in the studios. . .behind singers. . .at Hoyt's Gargage. . and elsewhere. . .BUT many began to view vibrato as generally "HOKEY", old fashioned, etc.. . .that myth still exists today with, perhaps a few players like Bill Watrous doing a good job at removing the mythology. . .Simply put--VIBRATO CAN BE USEFUL AND MUSICAL. . .you simply have to know what you are doing. . . . many do not know much about it. . . that is because of the STUPID MYTH. . .thus, no experience. . .thus very little musical use of vibrato. . .] I'd say that it is ALSO perfectly good to vibrato in louder shout sections (as part of the held chord music during the middle of other stuff), but care must be taken to not intrude upon the overall sound of the ensemble. I'd say that your description of how you vibratoed sounds a bit too "stylized" and therefore maybe too noticeable. It's hard to say without actually hearing it. Of course, if you are playing a TROMBONE SOLO. .or feature you can decide to use a very stylized vibrato of your own design. . .you are now in the driver seat without a doubt! Also, having many recordings now of bands I can TESTIFY. . .what you THINK is too, too obvious sitting just a few feet away (like the distance from lead trumpet to lead bone. . or from bone player to neighbor). . is actually, generally nowhere are noticeable on going out into the audience. Lead trumpet players usually are not the greatest analysts of how to handle the end note (I say this SADLY). Many of these guys and gals have all kind of crazy notions of how this is THEIR domain. . .the place where they hang way over (not following the cutoff . . .but rather making a stylized hang over of loud trumpet scream "hang over"). Or they decide that this is the time to TRY and take the end note up an octave, or THREE, or something like that (or worse they and maybe a couple other players start changing the notes. . .and maybe FAIL to hit their stuper-Maynard high note). The lead trumpeter may also be so egotistical as to dream that ANYTHING that he doesn't DICTATE is simply NOT DONE. If that were the case, the world of big band music would be a pretty boring place filled with folk taking everything up an octave. . NEVER vibratoing.. . .and generally sounding . . .well, you can imagine!. If you actually listen to the really world class bands, the whole deal is much more cooperative, involves direction from the leader, and the band generally cuts off EXACTLY TOGETHER!!!! Of course, these previous statements do depend upon the actual trumpet players, exact situation and the frequency with which any effect has been used. I am lucky to play in SOME groups where the lead trumpet player and EVERYBODY all listen to one another and come up with an "on-the-fly", "compromise" style. The vibrato generally comes out when the "sweeter" parts of the tune occur, or when it makes sense to "warm up" the tone a bit. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay > I'd do what the lead player wanted me to do. My personal taste is to > use the vibrato little if at all. There is certainly a school of > thought that would advocate more vibrato than I use, but in brass > ensemble sections I'm not the lead player. When it's a bone soli, I > may engage the vibrato. > > The other issue is how the lead bone supports the lead trumpet. When > I'm playing lead, I'm extremely conscious of my intonation in relation > to the lead trumpet. If I'm riding the high side of the pitch, right > or wrong, then I'm forcing the lead trumpet player to reach higher for > his notes and possibly making him work harder. So, I try and put my > pitch right in the middle so he can settle in. I can see how using > vibrato on a brass chord could make the lead trumpet player feel > uncomfortable with his pitch, chops, etc... > > > David Gibson > trombonist/educator > www.jazzbone.org > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mikel K. Smith > To: trombone-l@samford.edu > Sent: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 10:34:01 -0500 > Subject: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay > > > Had a trumpet player rather rudely chastise me for using vibrato at a > big > band rehearsal a couple nights ago. The situation was the final > 'scream' > ending of an up tempo piece (can't even remember what it was right > now); I > was on lead, ending on a high C. I did my usual delayed vibrato, > holding > the note for the first couple beats, then finishing it with a fast slide > vibrato - I probably ended the vibrato with a quick gliss down off the > note; > I usually do on a high final note. He 'instructed' me that bones should > never vibrato when playing part of a chord; only in solo situations. I > disagree, but there is the possibility I'm just a hot dog like he > accused me > of being. What does everyone else do in situations like this (the > vibrato, > not the butt hole trumpet player)? > Mikel > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 17:58:59 -0500 From: dslide13@aol.com Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay To: mikelksmith@verizon.net, trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: <8C7F7F5B7C01684-1240-1C6E@MBLK-M27.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed If you're worried about it, ask the lead player what he thinks. If not, keep doing what you're doing. They called you in the first place. David Gibson trombonist/educator www.jazzbone.org -----Original Message----- From: Mikel K. Smith To: trombone-l@samford.edu Sent: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 18:00:20 -0500 Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay The guy is neither the band leader, nor lead trumpet. I pretty much ignored his remark at the time, so I don't know that the leader (and lead trumpet) was even aware of it. FWIW, the lead is a lifelong professional musician, and has never commented on my vibrato one way or another, while the guy who did is a weekend warrior; CPA in real life. Mikel -----Original Message----- From: dslide13@aol.com [mailto:dslide13@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 12:50 PM To: mikelksmith@verizon.net; trombone-l@samford.edu Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay I'd do what the lead player wanted me to do. My personal taste is to use the vibrato little if at all. There is certainly a school of thought that would advocate more vibrato than I use, but in brass ensemble sections I'm not the lead player. When it's a bone soli, I may engage the vibrato. The other issue is how the lead bone supports the lead trumpet. When I'm playing lead, I'm extremely conscious of my intonation in relation to the lead trumpet. If I'm riding the high side of the pitch, right or wrong, then I'm forcing the lead trumpet player to reach higher for his notes and possibly making him work harder. So, I try and put my pitch right in the middle so he can settle in. I can see how using vibrato on a brass chord could make the lead trumpet player feel uncomfortable with his pitch, chops, etc... David Gibson trombonist/educator www.jazzbone.org -----Original Message----- From: Mikel K. Smith To: trombone-l@samford.edu Sent: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 10:34:01 -0500 Subject: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay Had a trumpet player rather rudely chastise me for using vibrato at a big band rehearsal a couple nights ago. The situation was the final 'scream' ending of an up tempo piece (can't even remember what it was right now); I was on lead, ending on a high C. I did my usual delayed vibrato, holding the note for the first couple beats, then finishing it with a fast slide vibrato - I probably ended the vibrato with a quick gliss down off the note; I usually do on a high final note. He 'instructed' me that bones should never vibrato when playing part of a chord; only in solo situations. I disagree, but there is the possibility I'm just a hot dog like he accused me of being. What does everyone else do in situations like this (the vibrato, not the butt hole trumpet player)? Mikel _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 17:17:02 -0600 From: "Pat McFarland" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay To: "'Mikel K. Smith'" , Message-ID: <20060204230156.DD89719012D@nothing.midiowa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" " while the guy who did is a weekend warrior; CPA in real life." CPA = Certified Pain in the.... ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 17:18:35 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay To: dslide13@aol.com Cc: trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: <4b8a331c874aa79ddede8ec2ba9810e5@gt.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Feb 4, 2006, at 4:57 PM, dslide13@aol.com wrote: > Perhaps another explanation is that the lead trumpet player should set > the vibrato for the brass, and Mikel wasn't matching his > interpretation. This is how I was taught and how I play. Other than that statement, this is a very complicated issue and not easily answered in any kind of e-mail. One needs to sit in a really great section and be aware of what's going on. LISTEN always. Play musically and match other lead players. Match YOUR lead player if you are a section man. Baring that, the next best thing is to go to live concerts and WATCH as well as listen to what is going on. Don't just sit back and take it in. STUDY it. Analyze it. Learn from it. Lastly, if live concerts are not an easy option -- then listen to as many recordings as you can get your hands on. ...Music that puts you in the same venue type as that in which you play; big band music in this case. Take your ears into the ensemble. Find that 3rd trombone. Is he using vibrato? How bout that bass bone? When is the lead using it? Not rocket science. Just plain ole' BIG BAND FUN! --Wayne Dyess ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 15:47:33 -0800 From: "Chris Tune" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay To: "Pat McFarland" , "'Mikel K. Smith'" , Message-ID: <010101c629e5$5eb7ef00$0400a8c0@athlon2800> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Hey Pat! You are stealing my THUNDER. I guess I sent that as a message to Mikel only. Oh well. . .anything for a laugh. Chris Laughter is the best medicine. . . .if you don't have any Morphine. . . . crt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat McFarland" To: "'Mikel K. Smith'" ; Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 3:17 PM Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Vibrato - yeah or nay >" while the guy who did is a weekend warrior; CPA in real life." > > CPA = Certified Pain in the.... > > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 03:14:17 +0100 From: "Alby Tbone" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Classic Chet To: "List Trombone" Message-ID: <004f01c629f9$e04d5dc0$e3a82c97@bimbo> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Well, probably Chet said: "Hey man....mi spiace per tuo padre." Beacause Chet spoke a really good italian. Being a great fan of Chet I've heard a radio interview on the web where Chet and Nicola Stilo were talking about their careers and Chet italian was really astonishing. Peace, Alby Tbone Borio ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Dinwiddie" To: "List Trombone" Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 6:59 PM Subject: [Trombone-l] Classic Chet > Dave said: > > "Anyway...Chet is set to play the gig and the promoter is introducing > him to the cats. He tells Chet that Romano is the son of Mussolini, to > which Chet replies, "Hey man...sorry about your dad." > > That is certainly a classic story and I have heard it many times, although > with the slight alteration of : > "Hey man...sorry about your ol' man." > > Either way it's a great jazz anecdote. > > Bill Dinwiddie > > > > > > ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l End of Trombone-l Digest, Vol 13, Issue 5 *****************************************