Subject: Trombone-l Digest, Vol 12, Issue 24 Date: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 12:00 PM From: trombone-l-request@samford.edu Reply-To: trombone-l@samford.edu To: Conversation: Trombone-l Digest, Vol 12, Issue 24 Send Trombone-l mailing list submissions to trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to trombone-l-request@maillists.samford.edu You can reach the person managing the list at trombone-l-owner@maillists.samford.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Trombone-l digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Amazing 12 year old drummer (George Carr) 2. Re: big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn (Chris Tune) 3. Re: What trombone is this (Erik Berggren) 4. horns for sale (Gary Sloane) 5. Re: big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn (mpurdy@jwpepper.com) 6. Re: big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn (Walter Barrett) 7. Re: big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn (Jeff Albert) 8. Re: big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn (Jeff Albert) 9. Re: big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn (Scott Garlock) 10. Commerce vs. Art Bebop Groups - was - big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn (Daryl Burch) 11. Re: big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn (Jeff Albert) 12. Re: Commerce vs. Art Bebop Groups (George Carr) 13. Re: Commerce vs. Art Bebop Groups - was - big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn (Jeff Albert) 14. Re: Commerce vs. Art Bebop Groups - was - big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn (Daryl Burch) 15. Re: Slide Hampton's horn vs. small jazz horns (Jeff Adams) 16. Re: Slide Hampton's horn (Wayne Dyess) 17. Re: Leeds presents Practice With The Experts (dslide13@aol.com) 18. Re: big jazz horns (how about DUAL BORE?) (Alby Tbone) 19. Need San Francisco College Jazz Group---HELP, please. (Wayne Dyess) 20. Re: big jazz horns (how about DUAL BORE?) (sabutin) 21. Re: Amazing 12 year old drummer (Bill Dinwiddie) 22. Re: big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn (sabutin) 23. Re: M-piece shank taper alterations (JFBermann@aol.com) 24. Re: Commerce vs. Art Bebop Groups - was - big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn (Jeff Albert) 25. Re: Commerce vs. Art Bebop Groups - was - big jazz horns was Sli... (SteveInside@aol.com) 26. Re: Commerce vs. Art Bebop Groups - was - big jazz horns was Sli... (Jeff Albert) 27. Stars & Stripes (Eric Edwards) 28. Re: Stars & Stripes (Denny Seifried) 29. Re: big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn (Chris Tune) 30. Re: big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn (BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com) 31. Re: Slide Hampton's horn vs. small jazz horns (Keith Marr) 32. Re: big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn (Chris Tune) 33. Re: Commerce vs. Art Bebop Groups - was - big jazz horns was Sli... (SteveInside@aol.com) 34. Re: Commerce vs. Art Bebop Groups - was - big jazz horns was Sli... (Daryl Burch) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 13:05:43 -0500 From: George Carr Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Amazing 12 year old drummer To: Bill Dinwiddie Cc: List Trombone Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 According to his website, he's gigging and giving clinics, and planning to go to college at the U. of North Florida. George On 1/24/06, Bill Dinwiddie wrote: > Thanks George for the info. I wonder where he is today. Probably getting his > MBA at Yale. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 10:30:37 -0800 From: "Chris Tune" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn To: "Jeff Albert" , "Keith Marr" Cc: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu, Alby Tbone Message-ID: <009e01c62114$46230300$0400a8c0@athlon2800> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original We can add to that Dan Weinstein here in LA LA land. He does all his stuff on an old 8H given to him by his father. Dan is very big in the latin jazz circuit here and has worked on gigs with many different bands, including Aretha Franklin. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Albert" To: "Keith Marr" Cc: ; "Alby Tbone" Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 7:13 AM Subject: [Trombone-l] big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn > Other jazz players that play big horns: Robin Eubanks (.547), Steve > Davis (.547), Steve Turre (525/547), Josh Roseman (547) David Gibson > (547) Frank Lacy (547), Slide (I really think his is 562), Vincent > Gardner (547 I am pretty sure) > > I also play a 547 when ever I am in an improvisation focused > situation. I like to play aggressively and i can do that on a 547 > and get farther into the loud range before it gets ugly. The > drawback is that when i want to get ugly i have to work harder. > > Jeff > > > > ===================== > Jeff Albert > > www.jeffalbert.com > www.scratchmybrain.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 12:39:14 -0600 From: "Erik Berggren" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] What trombone is this To: "Denny Seifried" , Cc: trombone-list Message-ID: <4977B6DD04A7344A9C3412EC5870A0E0144157@exchangesrv.osbckansas.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" In my estimation, Joe Stanko is one of the many and most helpful Lister that makes this List what it is,...an excellent resource. Long ago, Joe helped me with some .wav editing software in my quest to convert some LPs and cassettes to CD using my home computer. He went above and beyond, and I'm still thankful. Thanks Joe! Erik Berggren - AAA (Always An Amateur) -----Original Message----- From: Denny Seifried [mailto:ddsbstrb@woh.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 8:20 AM To: arvhult@musiker.nu Cc: trombone-list Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] What trombone is this Thanks to Joe Stanko, I need to correct a little bit of miss-information I passed along yesterday, in replying to this post. The Conn 112H was not the first Conn inline bass trombone to come along, as Joe reminded me that Conn produced an 83H, which was a few years before the 112H. This horn came along during the Abilene-Conn production years. After Joe reminded me, about my mistake, I remembered playing one, at an early 1980's ITF, at Belmont College. The 83H is listed as being in Bb-F-G-Eb. I also found that Conn also made another dependent bass bone, after the 62H/73H series and before the GenII 62H's and that was a 111H. This was a dependent 9.5 inch bell in Bb-F-Eb, and appeared for a short time, with the 110H (single valve) and the 112H (inline horn) series; however, it was dropped from the line, as the 110/112 continued the line. Conn's website is so infrequently updated and these two models may still be made, in fact I just went onto the CG Conn webpage and they are both listed, along with the 62H GenII horns. Thanks, Joe, for keeping me honest! Denny Seifried ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrik Arvhult" To: Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 7:56 AM Subject: [Trombone-l] What trombone is this -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello everyone! I am supposed to try to convert from tenor to bass-trombone in a local symphonic wind-orchestra. I brought the thing home some days ago and started to practise on it right away. I found it has the low notes I need, in relatively convenient locations, and i'm very happy about it - a good start. Whilst reading some about bass-bones here, of course vent curios: What trombone is this? Its some big-bore Bb Conn (marked 265 on slide, marked 40 and 331730 on its bell-part) with two independent rotary valves mounted in line: an F valve and a "about" G valve. The G valve's crook is due to calcium stuck in its inner-most position. Maybe it isn't supposed to be a G configuration. With both valves combined I find a low c and h about 4th and 5th position. Compared to pictures on the net it looks very similar to a Conn 62Hi - but i guess the 62Hi has F and D attachments. Also, this horn is ca 10 years old, maybe a little older. Getting the terminology right: woud this horn be called a Bb/F/G or a Bb/F/Eb (combining F and ~G valves to Eb)? (( the day before i brought this evil artwork of plumbing home, some nieghbour girl surprised me: she knocked on my door just to say "your trombone sounds a lot better now!". I cant figure what she really means. Poor thing: thin walls and a bass-trombone next door. :,-( )) Best Regards, Patrik Arvhult V?ster?s - Sweden -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFD1NKZjauAa1f6YKoRAuvsAKCaiTaQ6xhXhAFhm5KdgrYOYcdJ8ACfdvn1 I3zn4dlZZnSY9P9rU+fQa4w= =UvDs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 10:40:39 -0800 (PST) From: Gary Sloane Subject: [Trombone-l] horns for sale To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <20060124184039.30115.qmail@web81907.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 I've gotten to that point again: just too many horns in the house. List members can contact me offline for details if any of these are of interest. Meanwhile, I've put my Getzen bass trumpet up on eBay, just in case you know somebody who is looking for one. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7384955475&ssPageName=ADME:L:DS:US:8 OK, time for some long tones. Thanks, Gary Conn 26H -- all rose brass (mid-20's), perfect condition with 3 lead pipes and restored case, super-dark sound Conn 48H -- new old-stock Texas horn (haven't yet taken it out of the case) Conn 80H Special -- Vincent Clarke's custom-made .525 w/F-attachment, rare and exquisite Conn 100H -- original Minnick-style curved hand brace, plays great The 26H and 80H are posted on http://www.xs4all.nl/~cderksen/ConnLooksTrombone.html. Gary Sloane gary.sloane@sun.com (650) 352-8479 gary.sloane@sbcglobal.net (650) 743-6360 "We can be absolutely certain only about those things we do not understand." --Eric Hoffer ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 13:54:11 -0500 From: mpurdy@jwpepper.com Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn To: Jeff Albert Cc: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu, Alby Tbone , Keith Marr , trombone-l-bounces@samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Let's not forget Fred Wesley. Grins, Mike Jeff Albert Sent by: trombone-l-bounces@samford.edu 01/24/2006 10:13 AM To "Keith Marr" cc trombone-l@server5.samford.edu, Alby Tbone Subject [Trombone-l] big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn Other jazz players that play big horns: Robin Eubanks (.547), Steve Davis (.547), Steve Turre (525/547), Josh Roseman (547) David Gibson (547) Frank Lacy (547), Slide (I really think his is 562), Vincent Gardner (547 I am pretty sure) I also play a 547 when ever I am in an improvisation focused situation. I like to play aggressively and i can do that on a 547 and get farther into the loud range before it gets ugly. The drawback is that when i want to get ugly i have to work harder. Jeff ===================== Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com www.scratchmybrain.com _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:05:41 -0500 From: Walter Barrett Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn To: Trombone Mailing List Message-ID: <3F4C2DD3-96C8-4E52-8670-50AD0496C4C8@optonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Jay Ashby plays on a Yamaha YBL 322 bass trombone, modified, with the valve removed and a straight gooseneck, essentially making a .562 bore straight horn. And, of course, there's Bill Reichenbach! Walter Barrett "...it's important to me that I have total musical creativity and whimsy in my playing." -Dave Taylor Alto, tenor, bass trombones Bass trumpet, euphonium, tuba Yamaha Artist/Clinician http://www.walterbarrett.com ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 13:16:19 -0600 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn To: Scott Garlock Cc: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <2A60F362-B432-4342-A254-75734426D900@jeffalbert.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Jan 24, 2006, at 10:34 AM, Scott Garlock wrote: > I have always felt most at home on a .547, but I don't even think > about using it for improv. I need the dirt that a small horn creates > in order to navigate more quickly over the partials. While I'm a lot > cleaner on a bigger bore horn, I feel that this ability to move > quicker/more easily coupled w/ the sound (the cut) that one needs > when doing section work or competing w/ a trumpet player on a combo > gig is more indigenous to what I should provide instead of the > prettier and rounder sound I get on a standard legit tenor bore size. > S. > It is definitely easier to play fast on a smaller horn. I get the idea of needing cut in a section, but I don't see that need when "competing w/ a trumpet player on a combo gig." You mention the sound you "should" provide. I don't know if there is a "should" in the context of a creative jazz group. Now if it is simply a commerce gig that you get to play over standards on, but the band is really supplying atmosphere not art, then yes, there is a "should." I guess what I am saying is that in a creative situation your choice of gear should be based on your musical ideas, not your preconception of what you think people want you to sound like. I don't say that aimed at any one person, I just out that out there because I wasted large chunks of my early career playing what I though i was supposed to play instead of figuring out what "I" play. Jeff ===================== Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com www.scratchmybrain.com ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 13:09:30 -0600 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn To: Cc: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <357DE1F9-A40F-41AB-8F02-D5731F318D2F@jeffalbert.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Jan 24, 2006, at 10:23 AM, wrote: > For years I played everything, improv and lead work on an 88H. > Granted I had Larry Minnick open the wrap and make some mods to the > venturi and neck, but it was still a larger bore and was alot of work. > > I prefer my Getzen 3047 without the valve section for improv > because it has such a warm sound and it blends well in that > setting. That's my preference. What I have heard from leaders and > other musicians (non-trombone & trombone) is that they like the 2B > sound better. It is definately easier for me to lead a section > with the 2B, but if they are blowing 547's and larger they can also > "bury" me in the loud sections. > > Richard See, now we are starting to talk about 2 different things. Playing lead or playing jazz. The type of commercial big band playing that many freelancers do is a different world than the modern jazz playing most of the guys I listed do. Jeff ===================== Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com www.scratchmybrain.com ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:54:52 -0500 From: Scott Garlock Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn To: Jeff Albert Cc: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Similarly, I think you've oversimplified my remarks. I'm really not concerned at my vintage and station (and am happy w/ the calibre of gigs I get and the college gig I have) in life to worry re what others might want. It's a matter also of providing musically what's appropriate. Music is after all a communal experience and one does need to play nicely w/ others! S. On Jan 24, 2006, at 2:09 PM, Jeff Albert wrote: > > On Jan 24, 2006, at 10:23 AM, wrote: > >> For years I played everything, improv and lead work on an 88H. >> Granted I had Larry Minnick open the wrap and make some mods to the >> venturi and neck, but it was still a larger bore and was alot of >> work. >> >> I prefer my Getzen 3047 without the valve section for improv >> because it has such a warm sound and it blends well in that >> setting. That's my preference. What I have heard from leaders and >> other musicians (non-trombone & trombone) is that they like the 2B >> sound better. It is definately easier for me to lead a section >> with the 2B, but if they are blowing 547's and larger they can also >> "bury" me in the loud sections. >> >> Richard > > See, now we are starting to talk about 2 different things. Playing > lead or playing jazz. The type of commercial big band playing that > many freelancers do is a different world than the modern jazz playing > most of the guys I listed do. > > Jeff > > > ===================== > Jeff Albert > > www.jeffalbert.com > www.scratchmybrain.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 11:55:52 -0800 From: Daryl Burch Subject: [Trombone-l] Commerce vs. Art Bebop Groups - was - big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn To: Jeff Albert , List Trombone Message-ID: <7fb7acf24822148afce5823250c4ff8c@speakeasy.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Hey, man! Those statements hit home HARD to me. I just had a debate this weekend with a close friend who has started his own trio (trpt., guitar, bass) playing str8 out of the Real Book. {This gets breezy so please bear with me.} They landed a gig at a coffee house playing two sets. They took the gig because it gave them the chance to blow in front of an audience and stretch out to see how the crowd reacted. Both the bass & guit. players had rock/bluegrass backgrounds and are relative newbies to the bop environment. The trpt. player grew up reading from the Real Book with older brothers that played bass & guitar (both of which still play professionally and are top rate in their own right). I attended the gig to support them and see how this traves... I mean new endeavor turned out. It was a small coffee house with maybe 20 people there tops. But for their first go it was great for them. The response was favorable enough, they caught the bug and want to play out more. When asked what I felt of their performance, I made honest, direct, and constructive comments in order to help them along and hopefully improve their idea. However, they of course HAD to play "Lullaby of Birdland" in its original medium swing VEERRRRY squarely. To my ears it was frustrating/almost hurt/typical. My comment to him was not "My gawd. Don't ever do that again!" but was "Try it as a ballad with a very loose meter. Or maybe a samba. Do something to make you explore the changes more." His reply was "I see what you're saying, but we need to nail it the way it's always been played before we try anything crazy." While I understand the validity of this to an extend, doesn't this kind of smack as wanting to be "bebop cover band." And if that's the case what's the point of playing out? I'm curious to hear your (the list's) take on this: playing standards exactly like they've done vs. exploring new musical ideas (and I'm not even talking about 12-tone stuff or Dave Liebman-out!)--just trying things different ways to give tunes new perspectives. Thanks for bearing with my rant. Cheers! -D- www.radionoise.com <- Rock star by night www.burchinteractive.com <- Tech-nerd by day #;-) On Jan 24, 2006, at 11:16 AM, Jeff Albert wrote: > You mention the > sound you "should" provide. I don't know if there is a "should" in > the context of a creative jazz group. Now if it is simply a commerce > gig that you get to play over standards on, but the band is really > supplying atmosphere not art, then yes, there is a "should." I guess > what I am saying is that in a creative situation your choice of gear > should be based on your musical ideas, not your preconception of what > you think people want you to sound like. > > I don't say that aimed at any one person, I just out that out there > because I wasted large chunks of my early career playing what I > though i was supposed to play instead of figuring out what "I" play. ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:10:39 -0600 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn To: Scott Garlock Cc: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <2D29F205-B830-47E1-A9CF-ED39DD69E115@jeffalbert.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Sorry, I posted quickly and did not write very accurately. It seemed like I was speaking to you, when I was meaning to speak in more general terms. I don't mean to imply that we should not be concerned with being musically appropriate. This conversation started with large bore jazz players who all play in situations where their own taste is what defines musically appropriate, then it shifted to gear choices for situations where the taste and musical appropriateness is defined by an established tradition and standard. They become separate issues. I was just trying to point out, from personal experience, that we can sometimes let established traditional standards influence a situation where personal taste should be the only guideline, and when we do that we can slow artistic growth. Now that doesn't apply to the majority of gigs that most of us (myself included) do, but when it does... Jeff On Jan 24, 2006, at 1:54 PM, Scott Garlock wrote: > Similarly, I think you've oversimplified my remarks. I'm really > not concerned at my vintage and station (and am happy w/ the > calibre of gigs I get and the college gig I have) in life to worry > re what others might want. It's a matter also of providing > musically what's appropriate. Music is after all a communal > experience and one does need to play nicely w/ others! > S. > > > On Jan 24, 2006, at 2:09 PM, Jeff Albert wrote: > >> >> On Jan 24, 2006, at 10:23 AM, wrote: >> >>> For years I played everything, improv and lead work on an 88H. >>> Granted I had Larry Minnick open the wrap and make some mods to the >>> venturi and neck, but it was still a larger bore and was alot of >>> work. >>> >>> I prefer my Getzen 3047 without the valve section for improv >>> because it has such a warm sound and it blends well in that >>> setting. That's my preference. What I have heard from leaders and >>> other musicians (non-trombone & trombone) is that they like the 2B >>> sound better. It is definately easier for me to lead a section >>> with the 2B, but if they are blowing 547's and larger they can also >>> "bury" me in the loud sections. >>> >>> Richard >> >> See, now we are starting to talk about 2 different things. Playing >> lead or playing jazz. The type of commercial big band playing that >> many freelancers do is a different world than the modern jazz playing >> most of the guys I listed do. >> >> Jeff >> >> >> ===================== >> Jeff Albert >> >> www.jeffalbert.com >> www.scratchmybrain.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Trombone-l mailing list >> Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > > ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 15:14:36 -0500 From: George Carr Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Commerce vs. Art Bebop Groups To: Daryl Burch Cc: List Trombone Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 You can't blame them for wanting to master older musical styles; lots of older styles sound great if played with conviction, and it's often difficult for people who grew up listening to more modern styles to go back and sound "authentic" when playing bebop-era styles (just like it's often difficult for people who grew up listening to post-Kenton big band trombone playing to go back and master pre-Kenton vibrato, etc.). So I sympathize with the "cover-band" impulse; part of the reason they're playing older material is to get familiar with older styles as well as changes. But I also sympathize with your pushing them to experiment with style, feel, and form, because that's where the difference between playing music and making music really appears. In a larger sense, all of the styles and feels that could fairly be described as 'jazz' are just tools for musical expression, and your friends should (in theory) be able to use any and all of them. George On 1/24/06, Daryl Burch wrote: > When asked what I felt of their performance, I made honest, direct, and > constructive comments in order to help them along and hopefully improve > their idea. However, they of course HAD to play "Lullaby of Birdland" > in its original medium swing VEERRRRY squarely. To my ears it was > frustrating/almost hurt/typical. My comment to him was not "My gawd. > Don't ever do that again!" but was "Try it as a ballad with a very > loose meter. Or maybe a samba. Do something to make you explore the > changes more." > > His reply was "I see what you're saying, but we need to nail it the way > it's always been played before we try anything crazy." While I > understand the validity of this to an extend, doesn't this kind of > smack as wanting to be "bebop cover band." And if that's the case > what's the point of playing out? ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:14:59 -0600 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Commerce vs. Art Bebop Groups - was - big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn To: Daryl Burch Cc: List Trombone Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed I don't know, there is a much larger market for re-creationist jazz than there is for original stuff. I know some guys that are perfectly happy playing things as much like the record as possible. I'm not that happy listening to them, but they are happy playing it. I guess that makes it my problem as much or more than theirs. Personally, I would always much rather try to do something different with it, but as my CD sales can attest that might not be the best idea. Jeff On Jan 24, 2006, at 1:55 PM, Daryl Burch wrote: > Hey, man! > Those statements hit home HARD to me. I just had a debate this > weekend with a close friend who has started his own trio (trpt., > guitar, bass) playing str8 out of the Real Book. > > {This gets breezy so please bear with me.} > > They landed a gig at a coffee house playing two sets. They took the > gig because it gave them the chance to blow in front of an audience > and stretch out to see how the crowd reacted. Both the bass & guit. > players had rock/bluegrass backgrounds and are relative newbies to > the bop environment. The trpt. player grew up reading from the Real > Book with older brothers that played bass & guitar (both of which > still play professionally and are top rate in their own right). > > I attended the gig to support them and see how this traves... I > mean new endeavor turned out. It was a small coffee house with > maybe 20 people there tops. But for their first go it was great for > them. The response was favorable enough, they caught the bug and > want to play out more. > > When asked what I felt of their performance, I made honest, direct, > and constructive comments in order to help them along and hopefully > improve their idea. However, they of course HAD to play "Lullaby of > Birdland" in its original medium swing VEERRRRY squarely. To my > ears it was frustrating/almost hurt/typical. My comment to him was > not "My gawd. Don't ever do that again!" but was "Try it as a > ballad with a very loose meter. Or maybe a samba. Do something to > make you explore the changes more." > > His reply was "I see what you're saying, but we need to nail it the > way it's always been played before we try anything crazy." While I > understand the validity of this to an extend, doesn't this kind of > smack as wanting to be "bebop cover band." And if that's the case > what's the point of playing out? > > I'm curious to hear your (the list's) take on this: playing > standards exactly like they've done vs. exploring new musical ideas > (and I'm not even talking about 12-tone stuff or Dave Liebman- > out!)--just trying things different ways to give tunes new > perspectives. > > Thanks for bearing with my rant. > > Cheers! > -D- > www.radionoise.com <- Rock star by night > www.burchinteractive.com <- Tech-nerd by day #;-) > > > On Jan 24, 2006, at 11:16 AM, Jeff Albert wrote: > >> You mention the >> sound you "should" provide. I don't know if there is a "should" in >> the context of a creative jazz group. Now if it is simply a commerce >> gig that you get to play over standards on, but the band is really >> supplying atmosphere not art, then yes, there is a "should." I guess >> what I am saying is that in a creative situation your choice of gear >> should be based on your musical ideas, not your preconception of what >> you think people want you to sound like. >> >> I don't say that aimed at any one person, I just out that out there >> because I wasted large chunks of my early career playing what I >> though i was supposed to play instead of figuring out what "I" play. > > > ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 13:10:23 -0800 From: Daryl Burch Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Commerce vs. Art Bebop Groups - was - big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn To: Jeff Albert Cc: List Trombone Message-ID: <8a8d5b7359cbcc1808d438d69a6f694b@speakeasy.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I guess now that I think about it this loosely resembles the "Pop Music vs. Artistic Expression" battle, doesn't it. Sorry to waste the keystrokes. Cheers! -D- www.radionoise.com <- Rock star by night www.burchinteractive.com <- Tech-nerd by day #;-) On Jan 24, 2006, at 12:14 PM, Jeff Albert wrote: > I don't know, there is a much larger market for re-creationist jazz > than there is for original stuff. I know some guys that are perfectly > happy playing things as much like the record as possible. I'm not > that happy listening to them, but they are happy playing it. I guess > that makes it my problem as much or more than theirs. > > Personally, I would always much rather try to do something different > with it, but as my CD sales can attest that might not be the best > idea. > > Jeff > On Jan 24, 2006, at 1:55 PM, Daryl Burch wrote: > >> Hey, man! >> Those statements hit home HARD to me. I just had a debate this >> weekend with a close friend who has started his own trio (trpt., >> guitar, bass) playing str8 out of the Real Book. >> >> {This gets breezy so please bear with me.} >> >> They landed a gig at a coffee house playing two sets. They took the >> gig because it gave them the chance to blow in front of an audience >> and stretch out to see how the crowd reacted. Both the bass & guit. >> players had rock/bluegrass backgrounds and are relative newbies to >> the bop environment. The trpt. player grew up reading from the Real >> Book with older brothers that played bass & guitar (both of which >> still play professionally and are top rate in their own right). >> >> I attended the gig to support them and see how this traves... I mean >> new endeavor turned out. It was a small coffee house with maybe 20 >> people there tops. But for their first go it was great for them. The >> response was favorable enough, they caught the bug and want to play >> out more. >> >> When asked what I felt of their performance, I made honest, direct, >> and constructive comments in order to help them along and hopefully >> improve their idea. However, they of course HAD to play "Lullaby of >> Birdland" in its original medium swing VEERRRRY squarely. To my ears >> it was frustrating/almost hurt/typical. My comment to him was not "My >> gawd. Don't ever do that again!" but was "Try it as a ballad with a >> very loose meter. Or maybe a samba. Do something to make you explore >> the changes more." >> >> His reply was "I see what you're saying, but we need to nail it the >> way it's always been played before we try anything crazy." While I >> understand the validity of this to an extend, doesn't this kind of >> smack as wanting to be "bebop cover band." And if that's the case >> what's the point of playing out? >> >> I'm curious to hear your (the list's) take on this: playing standards >> exactly like they've done vs. exploring new musical ideas (and I'm >> not even talking about 12-tone stuff or Dave Liebman-out!)--just >> trying things different ways to give tunes new perspectives. >> >> Thanks for bearing with my rant. >> >> Cheers! >> -D- >> www.radionoise.com <- Rock star by night >> www.burchinteractive.com <- Tech-nerd by day #;-) >> >> >> On Jan 24, 2006, at 11:16 AM, Jeff Albert wrote: >> >>> You mention the >>> sound you "should" provide. I don't know if there is a "should" in >>> the context of a creative jazz group. Now if it is simply a commerce >>> gig that you get to play over standards on, but the band is really >>> supplying atmosphere not art, then yes, there is a "should." I guess >>> what I am saying is that in a creative situation your choice of gear >>> should be based on your musical ideas, not your preconception of what >>> you think people want you to sound like. >>> >>> I don't say that aimed at any one person, I just out that out there >>> because I wasted large chunks of my early career playing what I >>> though i was supposed to play instead of figuring out what "I" play. >> >> >> > ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:50:44 -0500 From: Jeff Adams Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Slide Hampton's horn vs. small jazz horns To: trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Hello everyone! I just did a concert with Slide Friday night. We actually discussed his horn. He was playing a little-known German brand (name escapes me--probably since I'd never heard of them before). It was a straight-through .563 bore horn with a Marcinkiewicz 1 MP. He was getting a very dark, almost euphonium-like sound. He sounded wonderful that night BTW. As to small jazz horns, the greatest argument for them stems directly from a historical point of view. Look at the bulk of the horns which were available and utilized from DIxie through the Big Band era to BeBop, and you find small horns nearly exclusively. Look at George Robert's bass-bone--a single trigger horn, not double. So it stands to reason that if you want to get an authentic sound in recreating the music you go with small or smaller bore. I've got recordings in my personal performance archive and in the demos on my site that feature me playing a .547 for small-group jazz-- even one with Conte Candoli on the same date. I know why I used to favor the .547 for the improv setting: if I was really getting into it and putting a lot of air through the horn, and I wanted to play a fast line, it was much more possible to cleanly articulate it on the . 547. That much energy into a .500 or .508 and it can get very messy. Look at all the lightning fast players who play small bore (other than Conrad Herwig and Rosolino), they all play at a much more controlled volume; much softer with close mic'ing. I love my current set-up: Kanstul 1606s (Williams 6 copy) since even though it is a .500, it feels more like .525 bore horns I've favored in the past, making it easier to play bop lines at higher energy levels. Plus it is also easy to chameleon it into sounding darker or brighter depending on the MP. Happy Belated New Year! Jeff Adams www.SlideAdams.com A Kanstul Artist/Clinician www.Kanstul.com On Jan 24, 2006, at 1:00 PM, trombone-l-request@samford.edu wrote: > Other jazz players that play big horns: Robin Eubanks (.547), Steve > Davis (.547), Steve Turre (525/547), Josh Roseman (547) David > Gibson (547) Frank Lacy (547), Slide (I really think his is 562), > Vincent Gardner (547 I am pretty sure) > > I also play a 547 when ever I am in an improvisation focused > situation. I like to play aggressively and i can do that on a 547 > and get farther into the loud range before it gets ugly. The > drawback is that when i want to get ugly i have to work harder. ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:14:25 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Slide Hampton's horn To: Keith Marr Cc: Bone List Message-ID: <2e6ffc8f48589f38fa90c5a562293854@gt.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I spoke with Slide Hampton about this when he was a clinician at the Witchita Jazz Festival around 1992. He said simply and sincerely -- for the sound. And what a nice man!!!! --Wayne Dyess On Jan 24, 2006, at 5:46 AM, Keith Marr wrote: > Slide usually plays a .547" horn. When he visited Rath's they gave him > a R4 > to play. Other times I've seen him with a King 4B. Others might know of > other horns he's used but they're usually large bore. > > This is an interesting topic in itself. Who knows of other jazzers who > play > big orchestral furniture, and why d'you think they do this? I play > jazz on a > .547", but that's because I'm used to playing bass most of the time, > so it > feels small to me. > > Keith in Bb/F/D > > ----- Original Message ----- > > I remember about a topic on OTJ about S.Hampton's horn. Search there, > maybe > you'll found. It was far ago so I'm not sure but it probably was > something > like a dual bore .525/.547 with a really large gooseneck, a fast taper > and a > 9,5"(or 10") bell. Look at the pic to estimate the bell's size. > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:57:05 -0500 From: dslide13@aol.com Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Leeds presents Practice With The Experts To: patmcf@midiowa.net, jeff@jeffalbert.com, crtune@adelphia.net Cc: trombone-l@samford.edu, TexasTbone@gt.rr.com Message-ID: <8C7EF50A14967F7-1290-224@mblk-r25.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I have now scanned the book and put it into a pdf. But, it's 88MB. That's a damn big file. Perhaps I'll create a download page on my site for it. I'll keep you informed. David Gibson trombonist/educator www.jazzbone.org -----Original Message----- From: Pat McFarland To: 'Jeff Albert' ; 'Chris Tune' Cc: 'Bone List' ; dslide13@aol.com; 'Wayne Dyess' Sent: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 06:35:38 -0600 Subject: RE: [Trombone-l] Leeds presents Practice With The Experts Maybe a little off-subject... CutePdf can convert documents creadted in other Windows applications into a .pdf. To the original application, it looks like a printerexcept it prints to a file that you determine. I use an old version of Allegro and I almost always print the finished product to CutePdf so it's easy to distribute. The best part is... it's free!! You also have to download a free file converter. Here's a link... http://www.cutepdf.com/Products/CutePDF/writer.asp Pat McFarland -----Original Message----- From: trombone-l-bounces@samford.edu [mailto:trombone-l-bounces@samford.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Albert Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 12:13 AM To: Chris Tune Cc: Bone List; dslide13@aol.com; Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Leeds presents Practice With The Experts I don't think the free version of Finale does graphic export does it? You have to at least get to the $150 version, if not the full deal. BUT if you are exporting the notation as a graphic, it doesn't really matter what program you made it in. jva On Jan 22, 2006, at 11:24 PM, Chris Tune wrote: > PRACTICE W/ The EXPERTS > > That is another thing: I'd be willing to take a copy and put it > into PDF. > I found that there are "freeware" versions of PDF conversion > utilities. I > used these to get various forms put into the website for the > California > Academic Decathlon. It think this would work very well for > anything that is > text or which comes from mainline programs. I don't know what it > will do as > regards images/graphics. . .but I'm willing to get into it, if it > would help > the trombone list. > > I know that Steve Ferguson and maybe a couple of other Los Angeles, > CA based > trombonists were hot on the idea of doing a modern version of this > book. > They would ask Alan Kaplan, Alex Isles and undoubtedly many other > great > players from around the trombone world to contribute. Then they would > compile the thing. As far as I know they don't have a final version > going > yet. .it may still be in planning or gathering stages. I will > have to ask > Steve when next I see him. He's pretty busy with other things anyway. > > That whole chore, too, would be much easier with the tools now > available to > us (freeware PDF creation--Word---cheapo FINALE). > > If we sought to do that I'd suggest we standardize on using Word > for text > and Finale format for the music (it seems to be the widest > distributed . . > .AND you can get a freeware version of the basic music notation > software > from them. .it gives only very basic capability. .but then these > are warm up > exercises!). It is very easy to export a bit of music notation in > the form > of a graphic and then insert into a Word doc. . .ultimately > printing out as > a PDF document for easy distibution to literally the entire world. > > Before you poo-poo Finale. . .note that the free downloadable > version was > good enough for me to do a transcription of the Jazz solo from > Bijou as > played by Bill Harris. !! > > Chris > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "George Carr" > To: "Wayne Dyess" > Cc: "Bone List" ; > Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 4:26 PM > Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Leeds presents Practice With The Experts > > >> If it's out of print, is there someone on this list who wouldn't mind >> scanning and distributing it? >> :) >> >> George >> >> On 1/22/06, Wayne Dyess wrote: >>> GREAT book. A friend of mine from the Falconaires (Lanny Marshall) >>> gave me a copy years ago. With today's technology, I scanned and >>> was >>> able to clean it up considerably. I believe it is out-of-print. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Trombone-l mailing list >> Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 01:19:04 +0100 From: "Alby Tbone" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] big jazz horns (how about DUAL BORE?) To: Message-ID: <003d01c62144$f33d2040$2fa42c97@bimbo> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Well, I'm not Slide Hampton, neither Steve Turre nor Robin Eubanks but I like to share my personal set up regarding the relationship between jazz and bores. : ) In my jazz playing I've tried three different horns (chronologically speaking): Yamaha 651 (a wonderful '79 bone with rose brass bell) .500 King 4B --- .547 Yamaha 645 --- .525 I like a softer playing and I'm not so powerful so a 547 axe is, on uptempos, difficult to "sustain". On the other hand, getting used to bigger horns, I found myself a little bit uncomfortable switching back to smaller bores like the .500. I found that 525 'bone on eBay for a liiiiiittle price and now I'm using it for everything not requiring an F trigger. But I still got a question for all the trombone fellows reading this: HOW IS PLAYING A DUAL BORE? (in particular I mean a 525/547) I haven't tried any... and they're so difficult to found here in Italy that I do not know anyone playing something like that. Thanks for your attention and sorry for my "italian"-english Ciao Alby Tbone Borio ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 19:39:21 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: [Trombone-l] Need San Francisco College Jazz Group---HELP, please. To: Bone List Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Howdy from Texas, friends. I just received a copy of a letter to IAJE's main office that was sent from one of our piano teachers at school. It's self explanatory. Anyone in the San Francisco area -- might you be able to help? Here is Dr. Betsy Hines' letter and inquiry: Good morning, ??? I am on the piano faculty at Lamar University in Beaumont, Texas.? Our main link to IAJE here is Dr. Wayne Dyess, who directs our Jazz Band program.? In the month of April, our son is getting married in Sausalito, CA.? I like?to use our university students to perform and play functions when I can, to help them gain experience;?is there a good connection for me to contact in San Francisco, active in IAJE and therefore a reliable teacher?? Maybe I can find a fine?student group to play background music at our rehearsal dinner.? I will appreciate your advice. Regards, Betsy Hines, Ed. D. (409) 880-8068 at Lamar University hinesbb@hal.lamar.edu ? If you contact Dr. Hines directly, please mention trombone-L. This is a great group. I feel good about this... Best always, Wayne Dyess Dr. Wayne Dyess, Professor of Trombone and Director of Jazz Studies Lamar University Dept. of Music, Theatre & Dance P. O. Box 10044 Beaumont, Texas 77710 409-880-8146 http://lamar.edu/ ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 04:28:28 +0100 (GMT+01:00) From: sabutin Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] big jazz horns (how about DUAL BORE?) To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <20029349.1138159709074.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -----Original Message----- >From: Alby Tbone >Sent: Jan 25, 2006 1:19 AM >To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu >Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] big jazz horns (how about DUAL BORE?) > >Well, I'm not Slide Hampton, neither Steve Turre nor Robin Eubanks but I >like to share my personal set up regarding the relationship between jazz and >bores. : ) > >In my jazz playing I've tried three different horns (chronologically >speaking): > >Yamaha 651 (a wonderful '79 bone with rose brass bell) .500 >King 4B --- .547 >Yamaha 645 --- .525 > >I like a softer playing and I'm not so powerful so a 547 axe is, on >uptempos, difficult to "sustain". >On the other hand, getting used to bigger horns, I found myself a little bit >uncomfortable switching back to smaller bores like the .500. That can be learned. ANY double can be learned, but you have to understand that it IS a "double" and practice it as such. You will more than likely be using a different m'pce and probably a different rim as well. With a different rim, whatever adjustments that you must make to traverse the ranges and volumes you play...and don't let anyone feed you that crap about "One embouchure, no adjustments", because if a note changes in ANY WAY then SOMETHING is "adjusting"...will be different in various places than with the other rim. These have to be learned, timed in, internalized and made automatic. And then RE-learned when you are off the double for a day or so, although the relearning process can become quite rapid over time. W/a different m'pce and horn, the resistances will necessarily be different, and you have to learnm to adjust your airflow to deal with them. Plus...positions themselves are different from horn to horn, as are the pitches of various partials. A lot to internalize...but it can be done. >I found that 525 'bone on eBay for a liiiiiittle price and now I'm using it >for everything not requiring an F trigger. > >But I still got a question for all the trombone fellows reading this: HOW IS >PLAYING A DUAL BORE? (in particular I mean a 525/547) >I haven't tried any... and they're so difficult to found here in Italy that >I do not know anyone playing something like that. I played one as my main instrument for several years...an old '30s Conn 76H with slide tuning. I thought that it was the best compromise of all for my own natural approach to soloing. It kept its core sound through more of the dynamic range than does even the best .525; the core sound itself was somehow more pleasing...more "conical", darker and richer somehow, but only a little...than either a .525 or a .547 (This had something to do with the TIS and the amazing Conn red brass alloys and designs of the time as well, I am sure.), and there was a slight elasticity to the blow...as if you were lying on the perfect mattress, not too soft, not too hard, just the right amount of progressive resistance and "give" when you attacked...that made it VERY pleasing to play at all volumes and in all ranges once you timed in that progressive resistance well. But...it was also just about as physically tiring as a .547, and I play a LOT of endurance-challenging solo gigs where I have to play high, loud and fast over complex rhythm sections, often while I am on the road and not in the best state of rest or practice balance, plus it did not blend very well with other mainstream trombones...probably as much or more a result of its old Conn-ness and TIS than its dual bore design. So I went looking for other alternatives, and came up with my wide open red brass Shires .525 that comes mighty close to that 76H w/out being nearly as challenging to play physically and blends better with other trombones as well. Shires, Yamaha, Conn and I believe Rath and Thein offer a .525/.547 dual bore option. If I was ONLY doing solo gigs and they were mostly with smaller groups, I would look into trying that option once again. It had its avantages... > > >Thanks for your attention and sorry for my "italian"-english > >Ciao >Alby Tbone Borio Your English is fine. Better than most of our Italian, for SURE... Later... Sam Burtis > >_______________________________________________ >Trombone-l mailing list >Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 21 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 21:32:51 -0600 From: "Bill Dinwiddie" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Amazing 12 year old drummer To: "List Trombone" Message-ID: <001b01c62160$05bf2db0$0a00a8c0@av> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Well, I see that Tony Royster, Jr. is NOT getting his MBA at Yale. Instead, he is making a lot of progress in music. He is now 21 years old and doing great. Here's his site: http://www.tonyroysterjr.com/ -Bill Dinwiddie billdin@comcast.net ------------------------------ Message: 22 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 04:57:19 +0100 (GMT+01:00) From: sabutin Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <5862768.1138161439620.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Might I also add onto all of this big horn/small horn palaver the possibility of getting a "big horn" sound and blow on relatively "small horn" equipment. J. J. did it...just for starters. Now J. J.was a FREAK. Really. And I personally think that almost the whole "big horn" movement in jazz with the exception of Jimmy Knepper (who was coming from an entirely different place) was the result of people trying to play "like" J. J. in terms of sound and freedom of blow/articulation at volume and being forced upwards in the size range in order to ACHIEVE that freedom. Starting with Curtis Fuller in his prime. This in in no way a criticism of this movement. Been there, STILL doing that. And in my own journey hrough that problem, here's what I have come to. You do not NEED a .547 axe to get that sound. It can be done on a .525. You just have to find the RIGHT .525. AND the right m'pce, AND the right physical approach, etc. etc. etc etc. etc. Hint...weight, alloy, and bell size. Further hint...m'pce and leadpipe. Advantage? Maybe 10% less effort. Easier, more connected flexibility and upper range as well. Again...maybe 5% or 10% easier. Disadvantage? Maybe 3% brighter at volume and not QUITE so open in the lower octaves. Especially the trigger range. And a little less...forgiving as far as articulation at volume is concerned. Is 10% worth the trouble to literally INVENT a custom fitted horn? Using modular makers? (It's a chore...expensive, time consuming, frustrating at times. With no guarantee of success.) If you are in a race and win by being 10% faster...is that not a great victory? But who are you racing? Why...yourself, of course. Have fun. To the victor go the spoils. (Hmmmm....) Later... S. P.S. Dual bore .525/.547 is an interesting possibility as well. Also...I have settled on an 8" bell that does NOT sound so ".547-ish" in order to cut thorugh and over the large ensembles in which I find myself most often as a soloist. Again...it's easier physically. P.P.S. Even J. J. went through this process in his later years. Remember that huge bell he tried for a while? On his normal .509-ish slide? Yup. ------------------------------ Message: 23 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 23:25:23 EST From: JFBermann@aol.com Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] M-piece shank taper alterations To: bonemstr@america.net, Trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <13e.23693530.310857b3@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Bob, Have you tried Terry Warburton. A friend saw him a few weeks ago and he is up and running again. Jim ------------------------------ Message: 24 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 15:22:12 -0600 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Commerce vs. Art Bebop Groups - was - big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn To: Daryl Burch Cc: List Trombone Message-ID: <41146DB8-FB83-4EBC-AE55-4C0FE8678A34@jeffalbert.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Jan 24, 2006, at 3:10 PM, Daryl Burch wrote: > I guess now that I think about it this loosely resembles the "Pop > Music vs. Artistic Expression" battle, doesn't it. Sorry to waste > the keystrokes. Well not to beat a dead horse, but since it is already dead... I'm not sure that pop music and artistic expression are mutually exclusive. I am sure that much of pop music is someone's artistic expression. And fortunately for them, their artistic expression is popular. If piano-less free harmony groove centered jazz quartets suddenly became popular, my artistic expression could be pop music. Or if what I honestly heard was well crafted catchy songwriting, pop music could be my artistic expression. I guess what I am saying is that if they are really honestly hearing "Lullaby of Birdland" in George Shearing cover style, then that is their art. If they think that doing it that way is like some medicine they have to take, then...I don't know, is there art medicine? jeff ===================== Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com www.scratchmybrain.com > > Cheers! > -D- > www.radionoise.com <- Rock star by night > www.burchinteractive.com <- Tech-nerd by day #;-) > > > On Jan 24, 2006, at 12:14 PM, Jeff Albert wrote: > >> I don't know, there is a much larger market for re-creationist >> jazz than there is for original stuff. I know some guys that are >> perfectly happy playing things as much like the record as >> possible. I'm not that happy listening to them, but they are >> happy playing it. I guess that makes it my problem as much or >> more than theirs. >> >> Personally, I would always much rather try to do something >> different with it, but as my CD sales can attest that might not be >> the best idea. >> >> Jeff >> On Jan 24, 2006, at 1:55 PM, Daryl Burch wrote: >> >>> Hey, man! >>> Those statements hit home HARD to me. I just had a debate this >>> weekend with a close friend who has started his own trio (trpt., >>> guitar, bass) playing str8 out of the Real Book. >>> >>> {This gets breezy so please bear with me.} >>> >>> They landed a gig at a coffee house playing two sets. They took >>> the gig because it gave them the chance to blow in front of an >>> audience and stretch out to see how the crowd reacted. Both the >>> bass & guit. players had rock/bluegrass backgrounds and are >>> relative newbies to the bop environment. The trpt. player grew up >>> reading from the Real Book with older brothers that played bass & >>> guitar (both of which still play professionally and are top rate >>> in their own right). >>> >>> I attended the gig to support them and see how this traves... I >>> mean new endeavor turned out. It was a small coffee house with >>> maybe 20 people there tops. But for their first go it was great >>> for them. The response was favorable enough, they caught the bug >>> and want to play out more. >>> >>> When asked what I felt of their performance, I made honest, >>> direct, and constructive comments in order to help them along and >>> hopefully improve their idea. However, they of course HAD to play >>> "Lullaby of Birdland" in its original medium swing VEERRRRY >>> squarely. To my ears it was frustrating/almost hurt/typical. My >>> comment to him was not "My gawd. Don't ever do that again!" but >>> was "Try it as a ballad with a very loose meter. Or maybe a >>> samba. Do something to make you explore the changes more." >>> >>> His reply was "I see what you're saying, but we need to nail it >>> the way it's always been played before we try anything crazy." >>> While I understand the validity of this to an extend, doesn't >>> this kind of smack as wanting to be "bebop cover band." And if >>> that's the case what's the point of playing out? >>> >>> I'm curious to hear your (the list's) take on this: playing >>> standards exactly like they've done vs. exploring new musical >>> ideas (and I'm not even talking about 12-tone stuff or Dave >>> Liebman-out!)--just trying things different ways to give tunes >>> new perspectives. >>> >>> Thanks for bearing with my rant. >>> >>> Cheers! >>> -D- >>> www.radionoise.com <- Rock star by night >>> www.burchinteractive.com <- Tech-nerd by day #;-) >>> >>> >>> On Jan 24, 2006, at 11:16 AM, Jeff Albert wrote: >>> >>>> You mention the >>>> sound you "should" provide. I don't know if there is a "should" in >>>> the context of a creative jazz group. Now if it is simply a >>>> commerce >>>> gig that you get to play over standards on, but the band is really >>>> supplying atmosphere not art, then yes, there is a "should." I >>>> guess >>>> what I am saying is that in a creative situation your choice of >>>> gear >>>> should be based on your musical ideas, not your preconception of >>>> what >>>> you think people want you to sound like. >>>> >>>> I don't say that aimed at any one person, I just out that out there >>>> because I wasted large chunks of my early career playing what I >>>> though i was supposed to play instead of figuring out what "I" >>>> play. >>> >>> >>> >> > > > ------------------------------ Message: 25 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 07:36:22 EST From: SteveInside@aol.com Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Commerce vs. Art Bebop Groups - was - big jazz horns was Sli... To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <265.498c118.3108cac6@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" As always Jeff, your ideas are carefully thought out and expressed... I'm thinking that maybe this does in some way come from your personal involvement in the field ? lots of exposure to the 'ordinary' might leave your pallet a little jaded? Hope I got the right spelling of pallet there :-D) That's not meant to be confrontational, just an observation that the more we 'know' about anything, the more we want to and need to push the boundaries - often for our own sense of satisfaction. Yes, that can lead to great art and, equally, lots of great art leaves large parts of the population far away and unmoved. Personally, I love it when a coffee bar takes the hugely brave step of putting real, live (and paid) musicians in the room - I love it! I almost don't care what they are playing - partly because it happens so infrequently. I guess if it happened everywhere I went, I'd have a different experience of it. Steve C In a message dated 24/01/06 20:15:29 GMT Standard Time, jeff@jeffalbert.com writes: I don't know, there is a much larger market for re-creationist jazz than there is for original stuff. I know some guys that are perfectly happy playing things as much like the record as possible. I'm not that happy listening to them, but they are happy playing it. I guess that makes it my problem as much or more than theirs. Personally, I would always much rather try to do something different with it, but as my CD sales can attest that might not be the best idea. Jeff ------------------------------ Message: 26 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 07:20:47 -0600 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Commerce vs. Art Bebop Groups - was - big jazz horns was Sli... To: SteveInside@aol.com Cc: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Jan 25, 2006, at 6:36 AM, SteveInside@aol.com wrote: > > I'm thinking that maybe this does in some way come from your personal > involvement in the field ? lots of exposure to the 'ordinary' > might leave your > pallet a little jaded? Hope I got the right spelling of pallet > there :-D) True enough. > > That's not meant to be confrontational, just an observation that > the more we > 'know' about anything, the more we want to and need to push the > boundaries - > often for our own sense of satisfaction. Yes, much for my own satisfaction as a player or listener, but also from my personal belief that one of the founding principles of jazz was the want and need to push the boundaries. > Yes, that can lead to great art > and, equally, lots of great art leaves large parts of the > population far away > and unmoved. My art always moves people, just sometimes it moves them towards the door. ;) Last friday we played a gig with my quartet. It was at a club that is not a jazz club, but a more general music club. They often have singer/songwriters or rock bands. There were a couple of tables of older well dressed folks that i think were expecting a different type of jazz band. They didn't make it past the second tune. That bothered me to some extent, but at the same time several people who were at the bar eyeing the trombone and acoustic bass very suspiciously as we set up, immediately moved to near the stage when we started playing. I don't think we were what either group of people was expecting, but it was a pleasant surprise for one group. Our only choice was to just do what we do. If we try to make everyone happy, then we end up playing in a less honest way that makes no one happy. Generally I don't mind if some people hate what I'm doing (hopefully some will like it at the same time), it is when people are neutral to it that it bothers me. That means I haven't reached them enough to even get them to really listen. > > Personally, I love it when a coffee bar takes the hugely brave step of > putting real, live (and paid) musicians in the room - I love it! I agree. I'd rather hear live jazz standards in a jazz cover band than the boom box in the corner. Very true. Jeff ===================== Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com www.scratchmybrain.com ------------------------------ Message: 27 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 07:47:18 -0600 From: "Eric Edwards" Subject: [Trombone-l] Stars & Stripes To: "Trombone-L" Message-ID: <200601251347.k0PDl3SU012308@server5.samford.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Good morning All! When I was in HS, my jazz band played an arrangement of the Stars & Stripes forever. I'm trying to find out if anyone knows who may have it in stock. Unfortunately the cobwebs are too thick and I can't remember who arranged it. Thanks Eric Eric, Leandra, Sara, Jared & Lily Edwards "The bitterness of low quality remains long after the sweetness of low price has faded." ------------------------------ Message: 28 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:11:32 -0500 From: "Denny Seifried" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Stars & Stripes To: "Eric Edwards" Cc: trombone-list Message-ID: <000701c621b9$3eefff20$6501a8c0@dseifried1> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Eric & List, We have a Stars & Stripes in the DJO library and I think it might have been arranged by Bill Holcomb, and it is a little on the tricky side, with a really bad page turn, at least on the bass bone part. Check with Bob Curnow or Marina Music and see if it is still published. Could be published by Kendor Music; however, I don't have my DJO book at the house, to check for you. Denny Seifried Bass Trombone-Springfield (OH) Symphony & Dayton Jazz Orchestra Adjunct Trombone-Wittenberg Univ. Dept. of Music Forum Moderator-Online Trombone Journal Forum ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Edwards" To: "Trombone-L" Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 8:47 AM Subject: [Trombone-l] Stars & Stripes > Good morning All! > When I was in HS, my jazz band played an arrangement of the Stars & > Stripes > forever. > I'm trying to find out if anyone knows who may have it in stock. > Unfortunately the cobwebs are too thick and I can't remember who arranged > it. > > Thanks > Eric > > > > Eric, Leandra, Sara, Jared & Lily > Edwards > "The bitterness of low quality remains long after the sweetness of low > price > has faded." > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 29 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 06:28:06 -0800 From: "Chris Tune" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn To: "sabutin" , Message-ID: <006601c621bb$8f00c0b0$0400a8c0@athlon2800> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Of course this is really a very PERSONAL choice. And there are really MANY factors to consider. One would be if you are primarily considering recording as a means of expression or live. . .another would be how long and hard you play. . .another is if you need to control the amount of "cut" through the section (In otherwords you are most likely "lead" and will need to "win". . .er. . ."be heard". . if you are fighting against a loud band or section. .). I think Sam explains the differences between dual bore instruments and straight bore instruments pretty well. I think the dual bore arose because someone figured that this might bring in to the sound and feel of such a trombone . .something of the Euphonium sound/feel. It does bring just a tiny bit of that effect in. . .but only a very small bit. Different players seem to perceive this more or less. Some say they don't really notice. I think it depends upon to what extent you are trying to control tonal color over your entire range. . .different types of horns seem to help you do certain things in this area. I feel the King 2B that I play on. .the traditional dual-bore model, records as if it were a .500 or .509 horn in tonal quality over most of the mp, mf, and lower f range. As I get into ff playing, the horn gets much brighter, quicker, as I rise in volume. By the top reaches of volume, the 2B is brassier than the Bach 16M (.509 straight bore). If I have to play on lead all night (say four hours) I find the King 2B easier to control during the entire time. . .assuming I've been practicing up on that horn. There seems to be a slight increase in flexibility in the King horn vs. either my Conn 6H or my Bach 16M. The difference is slight. In summary (outer slide weight at end): King 2B - great "lead" horn and very good for recording and for small group jazz as I'm playing it (traditional--swing style, leaning toward bop. . .think "Gil Falco" meets "Jim Pankow" kind of sound). .highest amount of flexibility and very "dark" sounding on a microphone, if properly handled by yourself and a knowledgeable sound professional. This is medium weight and the slide has not been lightened, but has the traditional outer slide sleeves (slide weight is 210 grams). Conn 6H - somewhat brighter sounding horn with "crackle" on the transients (the attacks. .the slurs across partials), but a reasonable amount of "beefiness" in the tone center. At a distance, a very balanced sounding horn which is very well in tune and has no bad notes. Up close it is obvious that this is more "diffused" in tonal color. Useful when trying to achieve a "buoyant", or "bravura" kind of tonal character. Might make an excellent soloist horn. The heaviest of these three horns, although it is splendidly well balanced (slide weight is 230 grams). Bach 16M - in lower volumes, the "darkest" of the three (i.e. less high components to the tone). .so dark, in fact, that it blends well with very large symphonic tenors (without being able to match them for "mass" of sound. . .but a pretty good match in tonal color). There is a very distinct "core" to the tone, in almost any situation. Transients do not "crackle" but are easy to manage and play. Hard to make "bright" in sound, getting somewhat edgy at the highest volume possible. The lightest weight of any of these horns both in slide and in the horn itself roughly a pound lighter in overall horn weight (slide weight is 195 grams) [this actually makes a great "rock band" horn--since it stays "core trombone" in sound right up to very loud volumes, which is what you are going to play in a rock band] Incidentally, I've heard the following from players who used to use the Williams model 6 (e.g. Dick Nash, Tommy Pedersen, Jim Sawyer). This horn can be tiring to play. I've interpreted this to mean (based upon a bit of playing on the older Williams and the newer Kanstuls) that the horn stays relatively in control and balanced even as it gets louder and louder. . .staying manageable and balanced "trombone-like" even as you get to on up to extremely loud, hard playing (like you hear in Tutti's Trombones and others from this time period). Thus, you wind up being able to run a great deal of energy through such a horn and may wind up kind of tired depending upon the music. You probably only notice this when trying to balance in a full section (or more) of very powerful trombonists. I'm guessing a bit on this last point. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "sabutin" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 7:57 PM Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn > Might I also add onto all of this big horn/small horn palaver the > possibility of getting a "big horn" sound and blow on relatively "small > horn" equipment. > > J. J. did it...just for starters. Now J. J.was a FREAK. Really. And I > personally think that almost the whole "big horn" movement in jazz with > the exception of Jimmy Knepper (who was coming from an entirely different > place) was the result of people trying to play "like" J. J. in terms of > sound and freedom of blow/articulation at volume and being forced upwards > in the size range in order to ACHIEVE that freedom. > > Starting with Curtis Fuller in his prime. > > This in in no way a criticism of this movement. > > Been there, STILL doing that. > > And in my own journey hrough that problem, here's what I have come to. > > You do not NEED a .547 axe to get that sound. > > It can be done on a .525. > > You just have to find the RIGHT .525. > > AND the right m'pce, AND the right physical approach, etc. etc. etc etc. > etc. > > Hint...weight, alloy, and bell size. > > Further hint...m'pce and leadpipe. > > Advantage? > > Maybe 10% less effort. Easier, more connected flexibility and upper range > as well. Again...maybe 5% or 10% easier. > > Disadvantage? > > Maybe 3% brighter at volume and not QUITE so open in the lower octaves. > Especially the trigger range. And a little less...forgiving as far as > articulation at volume is concerned. > > Is 10% worth the trouble to literally INVENT a custom fitted horn? Using > modular makers? (It's a chore...expensive, time consuming, frustrating at > times. With no guarantee of success.) > > If you are in a race and win by being 10% faster...is that not a great > victory? > > But who are you racing? Why...yourself, of course. > > Have fun. > > To the victor go the spoils. > > (Hmmmm....) > > Later... > > S. > > P.S. Dual bore .525/.547 is an interesting possibility as well. > > Also...I have settled on an 8" bell that does NOT sound so ".547-ish" in > order to cut thorugh and over the large ensembles in which I find myself > most often as a soloist. Again...it's easier physically. > > P.P.S. Even J. J. went through this process in his later years. Remember > that huge bell he tried for a while? On his normal .509-ish slide? Yup. > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 30 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 10:00:39 EST From: BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn To: sabutin@mindspring.com, trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <65.54475381.3108ec97@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" J J was not a freak. Just defending Indianapolis players. He was darn good. beldon wade ------------------------------ Message: 31 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:04:48 -0000 From: "Keith Marr" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Slide Hampton's horn vs. small jazz horns To: "Jeff Adams" , Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Jeff and others Someone on the OTJ forum verified that Slide's currently playing a Worischek Model 045. The company is based in the Munich area of Southern Germany. The Worischek website is rather light on eye candy (curses!) but according to http://www.worischek.de/englisch/index.html the 045 model is a bass trombone with .562 bore (14.29 mm). This suggests that Slide's going for bigger and bigger kit all the time. No mention is made of valve configurations and it's possible that he's had a straight Bb version made. These instruments are made to order. Wow, needs iron-strong chops to play jazz on that I'll bet! Not saying they're that special but my spellchecker suggests "Porsche" when Worischek comes up in a message! Keith in Bb/F/D ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Adams" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 9:50 PM Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Slide Hampton's horn vs. small jazz horns > Hello everyone! > > I just did a concert with Slide Friday night. We actually discussed > his horn. He was playing a little-known German brand (name escapes > me--probably since I'd never heard of them before). It was a > straight-through .563 bore horn with a Marcinkiewicz 1 MP. He was > getting a very dark, almost euphonium-like sound. He sounded > wonderful that night BTW. > > As to small jazz horns, the greatest argument for them stems directly > from a historical point of view. Look at the bulk of the horns which > were available and utilized from DIxie through the Big Band era to > BeBop, and you find small horns nearly exclusively. Look at George > Robert's bass-bone--a single trigger horn, not double. So it stands > to reason that if you want to get an authentic sound in recreating > the music you go with small or smaller bore. > > I've got recordings in my personal performance archive and in the > demos on my site that feature me playing a .547 for small-group jazz-- > even one with Conte Candoli on the same date. I know why I used to > favor the .547 for the improv setting: if I was really getting into > it and putting a lot of air through the horn, and I wanted to play a > fast line, it was much more possible to cleanly articulate it on the . > 547. That much energy into a .500 or .508 and it can get very > messy. Look at all the lightning fast players who play small bore > (other than Conrad Herwig and Rosolino), they all play at a much more > controlled volume; much softer with close mic'ing. I love my > current set-up: Kanstul 1606s (Williams 6 copy) since even though it > is a .500, it feels more like .525 bore horns I've favored in the > past, making it easier to play bop lines at higher energy levels. > Plus it is also easy to chameleon it into sounding darker or brighter > depending on the MP. > > Happy Belated New Year! > > Jeff Adams > www.SlideAdams.com > A Kanstul Artist/Clinician > www.Kanstul.com > > On Jan 24, 2006, at 1:00 PM, trombone-l-request@samford.edu wrote: > >> Other jazz players that play big horns: Robin Eubanks (.547), Steve >> Davis (.547), Steve Turre (525/547), Josh Roseman (547) David >> Gibson (547) Frank Lacy (547), Slide (I really think his is 562), >> Vincent Gardner (547 I am pretty sure) >> >> I also play a 547 when ever I am in an improvisation focused >> situation. I like to play aggressively and i can do that on a 547 >> and get farther into the loud range before it gets ugly. The >> drawback is that when i want to get ugly i have to work harder. > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > ------------------------------ Message: 32 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 07:22:07 -0800 From: "Chris Tune" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn To: , , Message-ID: <001801c621c3$1b5b85c0$0400a8c0@athlon2800> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Just based upon experience. . .FREAK often means unbelievabley GREAT. . .at least that is the way I've heard it used oftentimes. . . Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 7:00 AM Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] big jazz horns was Slide Hampton's horn >J J was not a freak. Just defending Indianapolis players. He was darn >good. > > beldon wade > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 33 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 11:21:31 EST From: SteveInside@aol.com Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Commerce vs. Art Bebop Groups - was - big jazz horns was Sli... To: jeff@jeffalbert.com Cc: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <19f.446cd792.3108ff8b@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 25/01/06 13:21:15 GMT Standard Time, jeff@jeffalbert.com writes: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ snip ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes, much for my own satisfaction as a player or listener, but also from my personal belief that one of the founding principles of jazz was the want and need to push the boundaries. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Can't disagree in any way ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ snip ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Generally I don't mind if some people hate what I'm doing (hopefully some will like it at the same time), it is when people are neutral to it that it bothers me. That means I haven't reached them enough to even get them to really listen. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'm sure there's a rule of thumb for life in there somewhere; something like, if I'm not making enough of a difference for them to notice good or bad, then I'm not making much of a difference at all... maybe that's just my personal dislike of mediocrity speaking. BTW, a few weeks ago I was trying to explore your files/tracks on your site as I was thinking of getting one or two discs. Couldn't make any work, the file kept telling me there was nothing there after I'd downloaded it. anyway, onwards and upwards. ciao Steve C ------------------------------ Message: 34 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:36:20 -0800 From: Daryl Burch Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Commerce vs. Art Bebop Groups - was - big jazz horns was Sli... To: Jeff Albert Cc: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu, SteveInside@aol.com Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed All excellent points! I guess what I was trying to do for my friend and his trio was to stretch his musicality a bit. One of the best musical experiences I've ever had was on the very first cruise ship I played. It was a six piece show band (Tpt./Trb./Reeds and PBD) that backed the production shows and star acts that would come on. (Side note: The trumpet player took lessons from Harry James, the sax player & drummer were fresh out of N. Texas St., the piano player --who dbld on vibes & drums-- & I were from CCM, and the bass player was fresh out of Miami--altogether a fun band to play on.) The ship was a converted tomato boat from the 50's that carried about 800 passengers on day runs between Ft. Lauderdale and Freeport, Bahamas. Every Tuesday & Thursday we would have to play a deck set in a gazebo by the pool from 11am to 1pm. That set was to provide ambience by the pool while Gladys & Chloe got their drink on to pass the time. Since it was a cruise to the Bahamas, we had to play Caribbean-inspired lite jazz. What we ended up doing was playing through the Real Book & the New Real Book and putting alternative twists on standards. So while we did the usual versions of "A-Train," "Perdido," "Shaker Song," etc., we'd also take "Summertime" and do it as a dub reggae. Or we'd take "Red Clay" or "Black Nile" and play them as a funk. It was just little attempts at style changes that would force us to approach the changes differently and try different ideas, yet still try to play something appealing to the bikini babes and the "condo commandos" sipping their 5th Mai Tai on their way to Freeport. The idea of approaching the fake book like a Chinese menu then also increases your rep. by three to four fold. Now when you pick a tune, you also pick a tempo & a style. Made for great head games for us a layer above what the crowd would hear. Most things worked. Some things didn't. But at least went for it. Thanks for y'alls input on this! Cheers! -D- www.radionoise.com <- Rock star by night www.burchinteractive.com <- Tech-nerd by day #;-) On Jan 25, 2006, at 5:20 AM, Jeff Albert wrote: > > On Jan 25, 2006, at 6:36 AM, SteveInside@aol.com wrote: >> >> I'm thinking that maybe this does in some way come from your personal >> involvement in the field ? lots of exposure to the 'ordinary' >> might leave your >> pallet a little jaded? Hope I got the right spelling of pallet >> there :-D) > > True enough. > >> >> That's not meant to be confrontational, just an observation that >> the more we >> 'know' about anything, the more we want to and need to push the >> boundaries - >> often for our own sense of satisfaction. > > Yes, much for my own satisfaction as a player or listener, but also > from my personal belief that one of the founding principles of jazz > was the want and need to push the boundaries. > >> Yes, that can lead to great art >> and, equally, lots of great art leaves large parts of the >> population far away >> and unmoved. > > My art always moves people, just sometimes it moves them towards the > door. ;) > > Last friday we played a gig with my quartet. It was at a club that > is not a jazz club, but a more general music club. They often have > singer/songwriters or rock bands. There were a couple of tables of > older well dressed folks that i think were expecting a different type > of jazz band. They didn't make it past the second tune. That > bothered me to some extent, but at the same time several people who > were at the bar eyeing the trombone and acoustic bass very > suspiciously as we set up, immediately moved to near the stage when > we started playing. I don't think we were what either group of > people was expecting, but it was a pleasant surprise for one group. > Our only choice was to just do what we do. If we try to make > everyone happy, then we end up playing in a less honest way that > makes no one happy. > > Generally I don't mind if some people hate what I'm doing (hopefully > some will like it at the same time), it is when people are neutral to > it that it bothers me. That means I haven't reached them enough to > even get them to really listen. > > >> >> Personally, I love it when a coffee bar takes the hugely brave step of >> putting real, live (and paid) musicians in the room - I love it! > > I agree. I'd rather hear live jazz standards in a jazz cover band > than the boom box in the corner. Very true. > > Jeff > > > ===================== > Jeff Albert > > www.jeffalbert.com > www.scratchmybrain.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l End of Trombone-l Digest, Vol 12, Issue 24 ******************************************