Subject: Trombone-l Digest, Vol 12, Issue 21 Date: Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:00 PM From: trombone-l-request@samford.edu Reply-To: trombone-l@samford.edu To: Conversation: Trombone-l Digest, Vol 12, Issue 21 Send Trombone-l mailing list submissions to trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to trombone-l-request@maillists.samford.edu You can reach the person managing the list at trombone-l-owner@maillists.samford.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Trombone-l digest..." Today's Topics: 1. King website? (Charles Levine) 2. Re: King website? (Simon Bailey) 3. "Pretty" Trombone Duets? (David Oliver) 4. Re: Fw: Mystic circle (Adrian Drover) 5. Re: FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss - now Ray Premru (jscot@ucalgary.ca) 6. Re: "Pretty" Trombone Duets? (Chris Dearth) 7. Re: FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss - now Ray Premru (Chris Dearth) 8. Re: Mystic circle (Chris Tune) 9. Re: C-crook? (Eric & Candice Swanson) 10. Ray Premru clarification (Joshua Hauser) 11. Re: Eb crook for bass bone (Dave Tall) 12. Slide Hampton's horn (stjones@umbc.edu) 13. Re: Slide Hampton's horn (Walter Barrett) 14. Re: Eb crook for bass bone (John Burton) 15. Re: FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss - now Ray Premru (Raymond Horton) 16. Re: FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss - now Ray Premru (Derrick Parker) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 13:35:57 -0500 From: "Charles Levine" Subject: [Trombone-l] King website? To: Message-ID: <000c01c61eb9$983808f0$73b01ad1@upstairs> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Does Robert King have a website? ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 19:40:04 +0100 From: Simon Bailey Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] King website? To: Charles Levine Cc: Trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <20060121184004.GX8915@pc6139-c703.uibk.ac.at> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sat, Jan 21, 2006 at 01:35:57PM -0500, Charles Levine wrote: > Does Robert King have a website? is this the robert king you're looking for? http://www.rkingmusic.com/ -- first hit in a google search for "robert king"... regards, sb -- Simon Bailey Systems Administrator Institut fuer Informatik Universitaet Innsbruck Technikerstrasse 21a/2 A-6020 Innsbruck Tel: +43 (0) 512 507 - 6433 http://informatik.uibk.ac.at/ ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 11:59:37 -0700 From: "David Oliver" Subject: [Trombone-l] "Pretty" Trombone Duets? To: "Trombone List" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I wish I could think of a better term than "pretty," but I guess another way to put the question is that I'm looking for "very" melodious trombone duets (or even trios). The style I'm thinking of is similar to tracks 2, 4, and 14 of the Costa Rican Trombone Quartet "Imagenes" CD - for instance. I have many duet books, but many of the them are heavy on razzle dazzle. My clear favorite for jazz duets are the many duets books out there by Lennie Niehaus (Lennie rules!), and I'd like to find a similar source for more laid back duets. I did just purchase the O. Blume "Twelve Melodius Duets" and am aware of the Bordogni vocalises duets as well. Thanks in advance. David Oliver Broomfield, CO USA ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 18:59:38 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Fw: Mystic circle To: "'Bill Dinwiddie'" , "'List Trombone'" Message-ID: <001a01c61ebc$d5f70b20$0100a8c0@Adrian> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > From: Bill Dinwiddie > > Can any of you highly intelligent folks figure out how this works? This had me fooled for a few seconds, but there is nothing magical about it at all. There isn't even any algebra involved. When you do the calculation, the answer is always a multiple of 9. You don't need to do the calculation. Just look up any multiple of 9 in the table and the symbol next to it will appear in the 'magic' circle. A. ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 13:00:34 -0700 (MST) From: jscot@ucalgary.ca Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss - now Ray Premru To: basstrb3@comcast.net Cc: 'Trombone-L' Message-ID: <1093.68.146.218.18.1137873634.squirrel@68.146.218.18> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Just a couple of details that I can add - he wasn't the Bass Trombonist of the London Symphony Orchestra as was stated in an earlier post - he was with the Philharmonia Orchestra (also called the New Philharmonia for some years, due to some legal issue). I recall reading in an interview some years ago, that he won 2nd trombone in the London Philharmonic at the same time as he won the Bass job in the Philharmonia (on a borrowed instrument) and he decided to take the Bass job because it was a bit more money per week. He was also the Bass Trombonist with the Philip Jones Brass Ensemble, and he played many London based recordings, including many of the early James Bond movies. After many years playing in London, he decided to take the position of Trombone (and composition) Professor at Oberlin, where he taught many fine students until cancer claimed him a few years ago. I'm sure some of those students can fill in many more details and correct anything that's been put out here so far that might be inaccurate. Jim Scott I'm sure someone has this all written down better than this, but... > > Ray was born in New York State [Elmira, I think] and went to England > shortly after graduating from Eastman. Other details, anyone? > > Phil Brink > > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: "Chris Tune" > >> I take it from the course of this conversation that Ray Premru, LSO Bass >> Trombonist, was not originally from England, but had most of his career >> worked there. Perhaps someone has a brief biography they could post. >> Sounds like an interesting story. He is part of that great section that >> I >> enjoy so much. >> >> Chris >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Raymond Horton" >> To: "Keith Marr" >> Cc: "'Trombone-L'" >> Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 3:57 PM >> Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok >> gliss - now Ray Premru >> >> >> >I met him once, at an ITA in Nashville, and he seemed like a true >> > British gentleman. (I guess all those years on your side of the pond >> > rubbed off on him.) He did a master class, and produced perhaps the >> > warmest bass trombone sound I've ever heard. >> > >> > I was at the hotel when he first arrived, and the young lass of a desk >> > clerk couldn't find his reservation at first. Ray chuckled when I came >> > over and said to her "Don't give this man any trouble! He's played >> with >> > the Beatles!" >> > >> > RBH >> > >> > Keith Marr wrote: >> > >> >> Like Adrian I never met Ray Premru, although it was a close run >> thing. >> >> I was lucky enough to have a couple of lessons at the Guildhall from >> >> Denis Wick way back when. At the time DW was helping Boosey & Hawkes >> >> bring out their first orchestral tenor, the Sovereign 547 (optional F >> >> valve in the tuning slide - still use one to this day on tenor gigs) >> >> and Ray Premru was, I think, involved with B&H at the time in >> >> producing the Sovereign double trigger bass. I think I'm correct in >> >> saying this was the first 2 valve independent to be produced in the >> >> UK. I remember there being a chance to meet up which didn't come off >> >> for some reason or other. I'm sorry about that because by all >> accounts >> >> he was a top bloke and it would've made for an interesting meeting. >> >> >> >> Ah well . . . . Perhaps I'll meet him when the saints go marchin' in! >> >> >> >> Interesting to hear the narrowbore G's pedals were easy to produce >> >> Adrian. I think as you say it was a case of not being expected to >> play >> >> them so nobody bothered. >> >> >> >> Keith in Bb/F/D >> >> Bass Trombone >> >> St Albans Symphony Orchestra >> >> Page Three Big Band >> >> >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Trombone-l mailing list >> > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >> > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Trombone-l mailing list >> Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 15:22:16 -0500 From: Chris Dearth Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] "Pretty" Trombone Duets? To: David Oliver , Trombone List Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Try the, "20 Posh Duets" by Brian Lynn. Very Jazzy. Rather pleasant. Chris Dearth Principal Trombone, West Virginia Symphony Adjunct Instructor, West Virginia Wesleyan -- On 1/21/06 1:59 PM, "David Oliver" wrote: > I wish I could think of a better term than "pretty," but I guess another way > to put the question is that I'm looking for "very" melodious trombone duets > (or even trios). > > The style I'm thinking of is similar to tracks 2, 4, and 14 of the Costa Rican > Trombone Quartet "Imagenes" CD - for instance. > > I have many duet books, but many of the them are heavy on razzle dazzle. My > clear favorite for jazz duets are the many duets books out there by Lennie > Niehaus (Lennie rules!), and I'd like to find a similar source for more laid > back duets. > > I did just purchase the O. Blume "Twelve Melodius Duets" and am aware of the > Bordogni vocalises duets as well. > > Thanks in advance. > > David Oliver > Broomfield, CO USA > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 16:18:23 -0500 From: Chris Dearth Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss - now Ray Premru To: , Cc: 'Trombone-L' Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII And he also fronted a big band in London with a gentleman named Bobby Lamb. Ray actually played jazz bass trumpet with them (he played a few recordings for me when I studied with him (I was there at the same time that fellow listers Gabe Langfur, Josh Hauser, Matt Stoeker, and JC Sherman were there). Ray got there my sophomore year. He also played on the Beatles songs that use orchestral forces (such as, "A Day in the Life"). I remember him telling me about a chance he had to talk shop about music composition with Paul McCartney (with Paul actually doing the asking). As many of you might know, Ray did quite a bit of composition. I know he also did some European tour(s)/recording(s) with Sinatra in the mid 70s. He must have started teaching composition later because he started out just teaching trombone when he got there. Of course, the studio was big enough those first few years (especially because of the size of my class) that he probably wouldn't have had time to teach that also. Philharmonia is correct, though I thought it was the 2nd job in LSO that he was offered (I think my memory is failing me on this point). Dudley Bright did a really good article about Ray in one of the past ITA journals (probably where Jim read about him). Chris Dearth Principal Trombone, West Virginia Symphony Adjunct Instructor, West Virginia Wesleyan Oberlin Conservatory class 1991 -- On 1/21/06 3:00 PM, "jscot@ucalgary.ca" wrote: > Just a couple of details that I can add - he wasn't the Bass Trombonist > of the London Symphony Orchestra as was stated in an earlier post - he > was with the Philharmonia Orchestra (also called the New Philharmonia for > some years, due to some legal issue). I recall reading in an interview > some years ago, that he won 2nd trombone in the London Philharmonic at > the same time as he won the Bass job in the Philharmonia (on a borrowed > instrument) and he decided to take the Bass job because it was a bit more > money per week. > > He was also the Bass Trombonist with the Philip Jones Brass Ensemble, and > he played many London based recordings, including many of the early James > Bond movies. > > After many years playing in London, he decided to take the position of > Trombone (and composition) Professor at Oberlin, where he taught many fine > students until cancer claimed him a few years ago. > > I'm sure some of those students can fill in many more details and correct > anything that's been put out here so far that might be inaccurate. > > Jim Scott > > > > > > I'm sure someone has this all written down better than this, but... >> >> Ray was born in New York State [Elmira, I think] and went to England >> shortly after graduating from Eastman. Other details, anyone? >> >> Phil Brink >> >> -------------- Original message -------------- >> From: "Chris Tune" >> >>> I take it from the course of this conversation that Ray Premru, LSO Bass >>> Trombonist, was not originally from England, but had most of his career >>> worked there. Perhaps someone has a brief biography they could post. >>> Sounds like an interesting story. He is part of that great section that >>> I >>> enjoy so much. >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Raymond Horton" >>> To: "Keith Marr" >>> Cc: "'Trombone-L'" >>> Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 3:57 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok >>> gliss - now Ray Premru >>> >>> >>>> I met him once, at an ITA in Nashville, and he seemed like a true >>>> British gentleman. (I guess all those years on your side of the pond >>>> rubbed off on him.) He did a master class, and produced perhaps the >>>> warmest bass trombone sound I've ever heard. >>>> >>>> I was at the hotel when he first arrived, and the young lass of a desk >>>> clerk couldn't find his reservation at first. Ray chuckled when I came >>>> over and said to her "Don't give this man any trouble! He's played >>> with >>>> the Beatles!" >>>> >>>> RBH >>>> >>>> Keith Marr wrote: >>>> >>>>> Like Adrian I never met Ray Premru, although it was a close run >>> thing. >>>>> I was lucky enough to have a couple of lessons at the Guildhall from >>>>> Denis Wick way back when. At the time DW was helping Boosey & Hawkes >>>>> bring out their first orchestral tenor, the Sovereign 547 (optional F >>>>> valve in the tuning slide - still use one to this day on tenor gigs) >>>>> and Ray Premru was, I think, involved with B&H at the time in >>>>> producing the Sovereign double trigger bass. I think I'm correct in >>>>> saying this was the first 2 valve independent to be produced in the >>>>> UK. I remember there being a chance to meet up which didn't come off >>>>> for some reason or other. I'm sorry about that because by all >>> accounts >>>>> he was a top bloke and it would've made for an interesting meeting. >>>>> >>>>> Ah well . . . . Perhaps I'll meet him when the saints go marchin' in! >>>>> >>>>> Interesting to hear the narrowbore G's pedals were easy to produce >>>>> Adrian. I think as you say it was a case of not being expected to >>> play >>>>> them so nobody bothered. >>>>> >>>>> Keith in Bb/F/D >>>>> Bass Trombone >>>>> St Albans Symphony Orchestra >>>>> Page Three Big Band >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Trombone-l mailing list >>>> Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >>>> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Trombone-l mailing list >>> Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >>> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l >> _______________________________________________ >> Trombone-l mailing list >> Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 13:53:42 -0800 From: "Chris Tune" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Mystic circle To: "Bill Dinwiddie" , "List Trombone" , "Roger Hecht" Message-ID: <032701c61ed5$257b4220$0400a8c0@athlon2800> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Yes. My son, Adam and I, had a great time "busting" this one this morning and we brought it to the attention of a Magician / Teacher / Parent of one of the Cub Scout troop. This fella, Gary Ireland, was teaching the kids magic. He calls this type of trick or technique--"misdirection". You are creating false impressions with the concept of having to hit a button to get the result to appear. . .and also with the sound effect of the "transporter" from Star Trek - kind of sound. I quickly hit on the situation by hitting the prediction button quickly a few times while noticing that the number 0 turned into the "key" symbol upon each screen refresh. Then the math (I did mine with out the algebra, just setting up some columns in Excel to prove to myself what was going on) makes it obvious that this is the "nines" multiplication results and therefore there are only ten instances where you see the symbol and it matters. The rest are "window dressing" or "misdirection". Very entertaining. Chris Tune ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Hecht" To: "Bill Dinwiddie" ; "List Trombone" Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 9:11 AM Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Mystic circle > At 11:21 AM 1/21/2006, Bill Dinwiddie wrote: >>I know this is a little off the beaten path, but it's cool. I was >>wondering >>if >>any of you highly intelligent folks on the List can figure out how this >>works? >>Trombonists are very good problem solvers. >> >>Let me know if you know how this works. I do not have a solution. >> >>No prizes. Sorry. >> >> > > The next time you try this, do the following. > > 1) Pick your number, do the operation asked for, note the symbol next > to the answer. Do not press the gadget that gives gives you the > symbol you landed on. > > 2) Pick another number, do the same operation. You will note that the > resulting number is next to the same symbol you got the first time. > > No matter what number you pick, the process brings you to an answer > with the same symbol. > > Now memorize a number and symbol combination or two. Press the gadget > this time. > > Note the new display. It should have different symbols next to the > numbers, but the whole thing will be rigged to give one of the > symbols no matter what number you choose. > > > > > > >> Try this. It works. >> >> http://trunks.secondfoundation.org/files/psychic.swf >> >> >> Bill Dinwiddie >> billdin@comcast.net >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Trombone-l mailing list >>Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >>http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > Roger Hecht > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 16:24:32 -0600 From: Eric & Candice Swanson Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] C-crook? To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <43D2B4A0.8040504@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Charles Levine wrote: >Why not a crook that would put low C in first position? > > The weight. Eric Swanson ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 17:15:15 -0600 From: Joshua Hauser Subject: [Trombone-l] Ray Premru clarification To: , Joshua Hauser Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Someone said that they thought Ray played with the LSO. It was the Philharmonia Orchestra. When I was studying with him at Oberlin, he told us that when he first moved to London he one the 2nd trombone position with the London Philharmonic and a few weeks later one the bass trombone spot with the Philharmonia on the condition that he get a bass trombone. Needless to say, he did. He is also the only person to my knowledge to ever win the concerto competition at Eastman by playing his own concerto... Josh *************************************** Joshua Hauser, Assistant Professor of Trombone Box 5045 Department of Music and Art Tennessee Technological University Cookeville, TN 38505 931/372-6086 jhauser@tntech.edu http://iweb.tntech.edu/jhauser http://www.tntech.edu/brass/trombone ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 18:07:10 -0600 From: Dave Tall Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Eb crook for bass bone To: "John Burton" , Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20060121180710.013d8180@mail.mchsi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:36 AM 1/21/2006 -0500, John Burton wrote: >It *LOOKS* as tho when both rotors on an *independent* system are >engaged the resultant length is longer than when both rotors on a >*dependant* system are engaged. > >Is this true or are my eyes deceiving me? If both instruments are tuned the same, say Bb/F/D for open/1 valve/2 valves, then your eyes are decieving you. If the total tube length must be X for the instrument to be pitched in Bb, Y for F, and Z for D, then the first valve has to add enough tubing to go from length X to length Y, and the second valve enough to go from length Y to length Z. It doesn't matter where the tubing is placed. It could be inline, dependent, or just used to make the entire instrument longer. A valveless bass trombone in F is the same length as a Bb/F trombone with the F valve engaged. An off-the-shelf dependent instrument, at least in the Old Days, was tuned in Bb/F/E. The tubing for the second valve was a short stubby length of tubing which approximated the length of the "E pull" on single valve instruments. In this case, the dependent tubing IS shorter than the independent tubing on a Bb/F/D instrument. It wasn't long enough to put the instrument in D. My first bass trombone (and my second, come to think of it) were dependents tuned this way. You had to buy a different tuning slide for the second valve to put the instrument in Bb/F/D. The D slide was wrapped back on itself with very tight curves. It might look like it's shorter than the second valve tubing on an independent Bb/F/D instrument. It's not. Repairmen and eventually manufacturers began making second dependent valve tuning slides in D in a more open configuration, generally one large loop coming out of the rotor. These, too, were the same length as the independent second valve tuning on a Bb/F/D instrument. > >And if so, doesn't that mean, in theory the INDEPENDENT collection of >rotors has a theoretical ability to play a pedal BBb or even a touch >lower? I'm guessing this since I can play the pedal Bb tone without >dropping into pedal sound .. If that makes sense. That makes sense. On a Bb/F/D instrument, you can play the same note as pedal Bb (in first position on the open horn) as a non-pedal note with both valves engaged and the slide extended pretty much as far as it will go without falling off. This means that the instrument, with both valves engaged and the slide maximally extended, is twice the length of the open instrument. It's the same length as Tom's BBb contra is in first position. Let's call first position low Bb "Bb" , first position pedal Bb "BBb", and the octave below that "BBBb". On a Bb/F/D instrument, on the open intstrument you can play Bb in first position, on the second partial. BBb is in first position on the first partial, which we call "pedal tones". With both valves engaged and the slide maximally extended, you can play BBb on the second partial, where it is not a pedal tone. You can play BBBb on the first partial, which IS a pedal tone. So BBb is a pedal tone in open first position, and is not a pedal tone with both valves engaged and the slide maximally extended. This is true whether or not the instrument is dependent or independent. It depends entirely on the length of the tubing added by the valves. This also gets into why the distance between 6th and 7th position is longer than that between 1st and 2nd position, and why there are 7 positions on the open horn, barely 6 with the F valve, and barely 5 with both the F and D valves engaged. You have to add a specific percentage of the length of a tube to make it a half step lower. I think the percentage is 8.3%, but that makes the math too hard :-) Let's assume you have to add 10% to the length of a tube to make it a half step lower. If our trombone is 10 units long, we have to add 1 unit to go to second position. This makes the instrument 11 units long. To go to third position, we have to add 10% to the length of the instrument in second position. Since the instrument is now 11 units long, we have to add 1.1 units. The instrument in 3rd position is 12.1 units long. To go to 4th position, we add 10% of that, which is 1.21 units. The distance between 1st and 2nd position was 1 unit. The distance between 3rd and 4th was 1.21 units. The additional tubing required to make the instrument a half step longer increases as the instrument gets longer. The hand slide is long enough to supply enough units of length to make the open instrument 6 half steps longer. It's not long enough to supply enough units of length to make the instrument plus the F valve tubing 6 half steps longer. It can barely manage 5 half steps. For the instrument with both the F and D valve tubing added, it's only long enough to add roughly 4 half steps. Tying this back to the original question, the amount of tubing you have to add to the Bb instrument to put it in G (3 half steps) is just a bit longer than the amount you have to add to the F instrument to make it 2 half steps longer. So, the "whole step" which was moved from dependent to independent was long enough to make the F instrument two half steps longer. This turns out be nearly enough to make the Bb instrument 3 half steps longer. Since that's close to a G, people called it a G valve. When used by itself, it makes the open instrument almost 3 half steps longer. When used on the F instrument, it makes that instrument 2 half steps longer. When it was dependent, it could only be added to the F instrument. When added to the F instrument, it adds a whole step. So it's a "whole step" in reference to the trombone with the F valve already added, which was the only way it could be used in a dependent setup. Dave Tall Bass Trombonist New Mexico Symphony ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 19:31:19 -0500 (EST) From: stjones@umbc.edu Subject: [Trombone-l] Slide Hampton's horn To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <3733.69.243.116.129.1137889879.squirrel@69.243.116.129> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 I went to the Slide Hampton/Jazz Ambassadors concert last night and it was wonderful. My question is - what kind of trombone does Slide Hampton play. The bell looked very large, almost 9 inches. I've never seen a jazz soloist play such a large horn; I think it's even bigger than the 8 1/2" 525 Shires that Sam Burtis likes to play. Anyone know the specs on the horn? Just curious. He's also the only trombonist I've ever seen play the horn left handed. Thank you. Stephen Jones ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 19:57:49 -0500 From: Walter Barrett Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Slide Hampton's horn To: stjones@umbc.edu Cc: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <0EA3D6F2-8357-465D-86DC-842DC27125CB@optonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Jan 21, 2006, at 7:31 PM, stjones@umbc.edu wrote: > My question is - what kind of trombone does Slide Hampton > play. The bell looked very large, almost 9 inches. > > Thank you. > > Stephen Jones http://www.worischek.de/englisch/html/referenzen.html Walter Barrett ?You blow in this one end- and a sound comes out the other end that disrupts the universe.? -Roswell Rudd, on the trombone Alto, tenor, bass trombones Bass trumpet, euphonium, tuba Yamaha Artist/Clinician http://www.walterbarrett.com ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 21:30:12 -0500 From: "John Burton" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Eb crook for bass bone To: Message-ID: <2C761FD6AEB2B640BF5524B1DD167C9D5BFC@centralstorage.johnburton.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thank you, Dave. I appreciated the technical, complete, yet not condescending answer. I suspect what was making my head swim was how the heck you could get the same note out of tubing of different lengths. And all it was me looking at one of those Bb/F/E horns and wondering how that tiny stub could make so much difference to make THAT horn play the same notes as my Bb/F/Gb/D. It just didn't make sense! Thank you for the kind explanation. I appreciate it. --==jb==-- ~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~= john burton Bach 50B3 Bass Trombone, Charleston NeoPhonic Orchestra South Charleston, West Virginia > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Tall [mailto:davetall@btrb.com] > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 7:07 PM > To: John Burton; Trombone-l@server5.samford.edu > Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Eb crook for bass bone > > At 05:36 AM 1/21/2006 -0500, John Burton wrote: > >It *LOOKS* as tho when both rotors on an *independent* system are > >engaged the resultant length is longer than when both rotors on a > >*dependant* system are engaged. > > > >Is this true or are my eyes deceiving me? > > If both instruments are tuned the same, say Bb/F/D for open/1 > valve/2 valves, then your eyes are decieving you. If the > total tube length must be X for the instrument to be pitched > in Bb, Y for F, and Z for D, then the first valve has to add > enough tubing to go from length X to length Y, and the second > valve enough to go from length Y to length Z. It doesn't > matter where the tubing is placed. It could be inline, > dependent, or just used to make the entire instrument longer. > A valveless bass trombone in F is the same length as a Bb/F > trombone with the F valve engaged. > > An off-the-shelf dependent instrument, at least in the Old > Days, was tuned in Bb/F/E. The tubing for the second valve > was a short stubby length of tubing which approximated the > length of the "E pull" on single valve instruments. In this > case, the dependent tubing IS shorter than the independent > tubing on a Bb/F/D instrument. It wasn't long enough to put > the instrument in D. > > My first bass trombone (and my second, come to think of it) > were dependents tuned this way. You had to buy a different > tuning slide for the second valve to put the instrument in > Bb/F/D. The D slide was wrapped back on itself with very > tight curves. It might look like it's shorter than the > second valve tubing on an independent Bb/F/D instrument. It's not. > Repairmen and eventually manufacturers began making second > dependent valve tuning slides in D in a more open > configuration, generally one large loop coming out of the > rotor. These, too, were the same length as the independent > second valve tuning on a Bb/F/D instrument. > > > >And if so, doesn't that mean, in theory the INDEPENDENT > collection of > >rotors has a theoretical ability to play a pedal BBb or even a touch > >lower? I'm guessing this since I can play the pedal Bb tone without > >dropping into pedal sound .. If that makes sense. > > That makes sense. On a Bb/F/D instrument, you can play the > same note as pedal Bb (in first position on the open horn) as > a non-pedal note with both valves engaged and the slide > extended pretty much as far as it will go without falling > off. This means that the instrument, with both valves > engaged and the slide maximally extended, is twice the length > of the open instrument. It's the same length as Tom's BBb > contra is in first position. > > Let's call first position low Bb "Bb" , first position pedal > Bb "BBb", and > the octave below that "BBBb". On a Bb/F/D instrument, on the open > intstrument you can play Bb in first position, on the second > partial. BBb is in first position on the first partial, > which we call "pedal tones". > With both valves engaged and the slide maximally extended, > you can play BBb on the second partial, where it is not a > pedal tone. You can play BBBb on the first partial, which IS > a pedal tone. So BBb is a pedal tone in open first position, > and is not a pedal tone with both valves engaged and the > slide maximally extended. > > This is true whether or not the instrument is dependent or > independent. It depends entirely on the length of the tubing > added by the valves. > > This also gets into why the distance between 6th and 7th > position is longer than that between 1st and 2nd position, > and why there are 7 positions on the open horn, barely 6 with > the F valve, and barely 5 with both the F and D valves engaged. > > You have to add a specific percentage of the length of a tube > to make it a half step lower. I think the percentage is > 8.3%, but that makes the math too hard :-) > > Let's assume you have to add 10% to the length of a tube to > make it a half step lower. If our trombone is 10 units long, > we have to add 1 unit to go to second position. This makes > the instrument 11 units long. To go to third position, we > have to add 10% to the length of the instrument in second > position. Since the instrument is now 11 units long, we have > to add 1.1 units. The instrument in 3rd position is 12.1 > units long. To go to 4th position, we add 10% of that, which > is 1.21 units. > > The distance between 1st and 2nd position was 1 unit. The > distance between 3rd and 4th was 1.21 units. The additional > tubing required to make the instrument a half step longer > increases as the instrument gets longer. The hand slide is > long enough to supply enough units of length to make the open > instrument 6 half steps longer. It's not long enough to > supply enough units of length to make the instrument plus the > F valve tubing 6 half steps longer. It can barely manage 5 > half steps. For the instrument with both the F and D valve > tubing added, it's only long enough to add roughly 4 half steps. > > Tying this back to the original question, the amount of > tubing you have to add to the Bb instrument to put it in G (3 > half steps) is just a bit longer than the amount you have to > add to the F instrument to make it 2 half steps longer. So, > the "whole step" which was moved from dependent to > independent was long enough to make the F instrument two half > steps longer. This turns out be nearly enough to make the Bb > instrument 3 half steps longer. Since that's close to a G, > people called it a G valve. When used by itself, it makes > the open instrument almost 3 half steps longer. When used on > the F instrument, it makes that instrument 2 half steps > longer. When it was dependent, it could only be added to the > F instrument. When added to the F instrument, it adds a whole step. > > So it's a "whole step" in reference to the trombone with the > F valve already added, which was the only way it could be > used in a dependent setup. > > > > > > Dave Tall > Bass Trombonist > New Mexico Symphony > ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 21:30:41 -0500 From: Raymond Horton Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss - now Ray Premru To: jscot@ucalgary.ca Cc: 'Trombone-L' Message-ID: <43D2EE51.8010703@insightbb.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed jscot@ucalgary.ca wrote: >... >He was also the Bass Trombonist with the Philip Jones Brass Ensemble, and >he played many London based recordings, including many of the early James >Bond movies. > >... >Jim Scott > > > Ray can be seen on-screen playing near the beginning of the Paul McCartney movie "Give My Regards to Broadstreet." He's in the recording studio with some other Phillip Jones guys, all doing an impeccable job on the string quartet parts to "Yesterday." That movie features a mixture of live and recorded tracks all the way through, with some great music (in the midst of a dreadful plot). RBH ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 09:37:43 +0000 From: Derrick Parker Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss - now Ray Premru To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <7d3c31060601220137i4a6bd072k@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I got to meet Ray Premru 20 odd years ago when I was living in Italy and he was touring with the Philip Jones Brass Ensemble. What a lovely man. I didn't get a chance to ask him much as he was more interested to find out why I was living in Italian Alps, what the local music scene was, and how I knew Chris Mowatt who was also in the PJBE. He made me feel great. As to whether he was the pioneer of the double (or single) valve bass trombone in the UK I don't know. It may also have been due to the lifting of performing restrictions by the US musicians union for British musicians in the States in the late 50s and hence the discovery of of large bore instruments and the Bb/F bass. For example Denis Wick got his first Conn 8H in 1958. Ray certainly played a Boosey & Hawkes instrument for quite a long time. In fact his instrument is still regularly used by Fred Deveraux in Birmingham (UK) who was a great friend of Ray. To complete the thread circle Ray tuned the second valve to G where it stays to this day! Derrick (also in G/Eb) ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l End of Trombone-l Digest, Vol 12, Issue 21 ******************************************