Subject: Trombone-l Digest, Vol 12, Issue 20 Date: Saturday, January 21, 2006 12:00 PM From: trombone-l-request@samford.edu Reply-To: trombone-l@samford.edu To: Conversation: Trombone-l Digest, Vol 12, Issue 20 Send Trombone-l mailing list submissions to trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to trombone-l-request@maillists.samford.edu You can reach the person managing the list at trombone-l-owner@maillists.samford.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Trombone-l digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: : was Eb crook for bass bone - then best Bartok gliss - now G trom in Big band (Keith Marr) 2. Slide Hampton concert tonight in Maryland (Jeff Adams) 3. Re: medium shanks (Raymond Horton) 4. Re: FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss (Raymond Horton) 5. Re: medium shanks (Walter Barrett) 6. Re: FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss (Raymond Horton) 7. Re: Any Home Recordist / Home Studio folk out there. (Wayne Dyess) 8. Re: : was Eb crook for bass bone - then best Bartok gliss - now G trom in Big band (Adrian Drover) 9. Re: FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss (Adrian Drover) 10. Re: FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss (Tom Izzo) 11. Rhap in Blue (Charles Levine) 12. Re: FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss (Raymond Horton) 13. Re: Any Home Recordist / Home Studio folk out there. (Moran, Doug) 14. Re: FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss (Keith Marr) 15. Re: FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss - now Ray Premru (Raymond Horton) 16. Re: medium shanks (BGuttman) 17. Re: FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss - now Ray Premru (Chris Tune) 18. Re: FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss- now Ray Premru (Adrian Drover) 19. Re: FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss- now Ray Premru (Chris Tune) 20. Re: FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss- now Ray Premru (George Carr) 21. Re: Eb crook for bass bone (Dave Tall) 22. Re: FW: Eb crook- now Ray Premru (Bonemaster) 23. Re: Eb crook for bass bone (John Burton) 24. C-crook? (Charles Levine) 25. Re: C-crook? (Raymond Horton) 26. Re: C-crook? (Chris Dearth) 27. Re: Eb crook for bass bone (Keith Marr) 28. TruBore vs Thayer (Tony Clements) 29. Mystic circle (Bill Dinwiddie) 30. Re: Mystic circle (Keith Marr) 31. Re: FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss - now Ray Premru (basstrb3@comcast.net) 32. Re: Mystic circle (Robert Holland) 33. Re: Mystic circle (Roger Hecht) 34. Fw: Mystic circle (Bill Dinwiddie) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 18:07:26 -0000 From: "Keith Marr" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] : was Eb crook for bass bone - then best Bartok gliss - now G trom in Big band To: "Adrian Drover" , "'Trombone-L'" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original > ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Keith Marr >> >> For that matter this is why you always find the Bb pedals in the 2nd >> trombone in Elgar. He was thinking of a bass trombone in G. > > I have a big band arranging book written by British arranger Reg Owen, > dated > 1956. It speaks of the trombones having "one useful pedal note (Bb) which > should be used with discretion". Then it says that the bass trombone is > usually pitched in G, having a normal range down to C#. No mention that > it > is also possible to play pedals on this instrument. So, one would assume > that the tenor was able to play lower than the bass. I don't ever > remember > British big bands using the G trombone. I think this arranger was > probably > mis-informed about big band instrumentation, as was the case with a few > writers in that era of dance band music. G trombones were however used > extensively in brass bands when I was a kid, being the only band > instrument > to play from a bass clef part. > I would be interested to see if I could locate a copy of the Owen book, sounds interesting. If he's the same Reginald Owen I know about I thought he was a brass band arranger primarily anyway. Yes indeed, the prospect of playing pedals on the G bass is never considered in anything I've read on the subject. I guess that pedals were difficult enough for the small bore tenor instruments and small mouthpieces of the 1950s (speaking entirely UKwise here) and was tougher on a G. That's why he's saying that only the Bb is practical on the tenor. He obviously never read Berlioz's comment on the subject ("These notes are in the instrument, and the players must get them out!") written in the 1820s! I've only got a "large-bore" G/D (sounds magnificent alongside four tubas in brass band playing - much better than the modern fat bass sound IMHO) so I don't know how difficult pedals are on the old peashooter G trombone. As to G trombones in big band playing? Nah, never, e's 'avin a larf! The really low bass trombone sound is something I only come across on more recent charts. Charts from the big band era are usually written for 3 or 4 tenors. Indeed as you probably know yourself Adrian, the bass trom player has to be something of a schizo in big bands as one minute he's in the heights on a Glen Millar chart and the next minute he's grovelling down among the raspberries on a Basie chart. The term "4th trombone" covers a multitude of sins. Indeed, you often find a third type of chart these days so you get charts written for: (1) 3 or 4 tenors (2) 3 tenors and a bass (3) 4 tenors and a bass, or 5th. The G trombone was only found in brass bands, for whom Boosey/Besson was still making the model I own in the 1980s I believe (Ed Solomon can confirm that), and orchestras up until the late 1950s. Orchestral players always used a D valve to enable them to play stuff written for the F bass (i.e. the low C in Brahms Symphony No.1). There's a fine picture of a G/D trombone on the BTS website under the history of the LSO section. As for how to play a Bartok gliss on a G/D - I reckon you'd be struggling to make it sound musical but you'd need to start on 4th position with the trigger and drop the trigger out at the top of the slide somewhere. Tricky! Must try it in practice sometime. Keith in Bb/F/D Bass Trombone St Albans Symphony Orchestra Page Three Big Band ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:10:42 -0500 From: Jeff Adams Subject: [Trombone-l] Slide Hampton concert tonight in Maryland To: trombone-l@samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Slide Hampton is performing tonight with the Army Jazz Ambassadors. Details are here: http://www.army.mil/fieldband/pages/schedule/sched.html Hope to see some of you who live nearby. Jeff Adams www.SlideAdams.com A Kanstul Artist/Clinician www.Kanstul.com ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:47:37 -0500 From: Raymond Horton Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] medium shanks To: BGuttman Cc: Trombone Mailing List Message-ID: <43D13049.3090008@insightbb.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Are you sure, Bruce? I've seen a number of Yamaha 321's, and they all had small shanks. (Great horn - more free blowing than compensating horns.) I have two euphoniums, both made in 1961, and both have medium shanks: a Besson 4-valve compensating and a Conn 24-I. Both are wonderful horns. Henry Howey has expressed the opinion that the Bessons sounded better when they came with medium shanks. Any decent repairperson should be able to cut a large shank down to a medium shank. I've had it done many times, although I have mine cut down extra short because the Conn tends to be flat, at least for me, and has no easy place to shorten. RBH (Bruce, please don't send me private hate mail for disputing your answer like the hot-head who did so, then "blocked me out" for my muslin vs. cotton reponse! This is not personal, but it seems life-and-death to some!) BGuttman wrote: >Message text written by "Lisa & Patrick Bates" > > >Good question! I'll add to it. Anyone know where someone could get one "off >the shelf"? Our local community band had a horn donated that needs one, and >I'm the only guy in the area that had half a clue what the problem was! >Something mainstream that I can get through a local dealer would be >nice............< > >There are actually two different "Medium" shanks, one originally for the >Boosey / Besson Euphonium, and one for the Yamaha 321 Euphonium. > >Denis Wick has both types. One is M, and one is Y. I got a 4AY for an old >G-Bass trombone and it works great. > >I think the M and Y shanks are available in 4 and 6 cups. > >Good luck. > >Bruce Guttman >Londonderry, NH > > ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:56:09 -0500 From: Raymond Horton Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss To: Adrian Drover Cc: 'Trombone-L' , 'Keith Marr' Message-ID: <43D13249.4050908@insightbb.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Adrian, did you ever know Ray Premru? I was told that his arrival and success in Britian with the Bb-F bass trombone had a large roll in the demise of the G bass trombone. Do you know whether or not this is overstatement? Ray Horton Louisville Orchestra Adrian Drover wrote: > > >>From: Keith Marr >> >>For that matter this is why you always find the Bb pedals in the 2nd >>trombone in Elgar. He was thinking of a bass trombone in G. >> >> > > >I have a big band arranging book written by British arranger Reg Owen, dated >1956. It speaks of the trombones having "one useful pedal note (Bb) which >should be used with discretion". Then it says that the bass trombone is >usually pitched in G, having a normal range down to C#. No mention that it >is also possible to play pedals on this instrument. So, one would assume >that the tenor was able to play lower than the bass. I don't ever remember >British big bands using the G trombone. I think this arranger was probably >mis-informed about big band instrumentation, as was the case with a few >writers in that era of dance band music. G trombones were however used >extensively in brass bands when I was a kid, being the only band instrument >to play from a bass clef part. > >A. > > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:57:38 -0500 From: Walter Barrett Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] medium shanks To: Trombone Mailing List Message-ID: <465F713D-E81A-403D-87DB-7424839C19E6@optonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Jan 20, 2006, at 1:47 PM, Raymond Horton wrote: > Are you sure, Bruce? I've seen a number of Yamaha 321's, and they all > had small shanks. (Great horn - more free blowing than compensating > horns.) The Yamaha 321 and 201 take a standard small shank mouthpiece. I'm not sure why Wick designates Y as being for Yamaha, you'd have to ask them. What I've heard is that the Y shank is the same as their S (small) shank. Perhaps when the Yammies first came out, they got tired of folks asking which mouthpiece would fit? Walter Barrett "Playing will get easier with the 'right' equipment. Good luck with finding that equipment." -Da Tastee Bros! Alto, tenor, bass trombones Bass trumpet, euphonium, tuba Yamaha Artist/Clinician http://www.walterbarrett.com ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:08:02 -0500 From: Raymond Horton Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss To: Adrian Drover Cc: 'Trombone-L' , 'Keith Marr' Message-ID: <43D13512.1070105@insightbb.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Now that my previous message has gone out across cyberspace for eternity, please let me correct "roll" to "role," and let me ask Keith the same question. Adrian and Keith, did either of you know Ray Premru? I was told that his arrival and success in Britian with the Bb-F bass trombone had a large role in the demise of the G bass trombone. Do you know whether or not this is overstatement? Ray Horton Louisville Orchestra Adrian Drover wrote: >> >> > > >>>>From: Keith Marr >>>> >>>>For that matter this is why you always find the Bb pedals in the 2nd >>>>trombone in Elgar. He was thinking of a bass trombone in G. >>>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>I have a big band arranging book written by British arranger Reg Owen, dated >>1956. It speaks of the trombones having "one useful pedal note (Bb) which >>should be used with discretion". Then it says that the bass trombone is >>usually pitched in G, having a normal range down to C#. No mention that it >>is also possible to play pedals on this instrument. So, one would assume >>that the tenor was able to play lower than the bass. I don't ever remember >>British big bands using the G trombone. I think this arranger was probably >>mis-informed about big band instrumentation, as was the case with a few >>writers in that era of dance band music. G trombones were however used >>extensively in brass bands when I was a kid, being the only band instrument >>to play from a bass clef part. >> >>A. >> >> > > _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l Adrian Drover wrote: > > >>From: Keith Marr >> >>For that matter this is why you always find the Bb pedals in the 2nd >>trombone in Elgar. He was thinking of a bass trombone in G. >> >> > > >I have a big band arranging book written by British arranger Reg Owen, dated >1956. It speaks of the trombones having "one useful pedal note (Bb) which >should be used with discretion". Then it says that the bass trombone is >usually pitched in G, having a normal range down to C#. No mention that it >is also possible to play pedals on this instrument. So, one would assume >that the tenor was able to play lower than the bass. I don't ever remember >British big bands using the G trombone. I think this arranger was probably >mis-informed about big band instrumentation, as was the case with a few >writers in that era of dance band music. G trombones were however used >extensively in brass bands when I was a kid, being the only band instrument >to play from a bass clef part. > >A. > > >_______________________________________________ >Trombone-l mailing list >Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > > ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:08:14 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Any Home Recordist / Home Studio folk out there. To: Chris Tune Cc: Bone List Message-ID: <79162af11a649998b6adbdaf314ed63c@gt.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I have one of those. It is better than most any plug-in I've heard, with the exception of the high dollar ones. I have a Grammy nominated former student in Houston, and he also uses outboard verbs (480L by Lexicon). Give the Midiverb 4 a try. It's pretty good. WD On Jan 20, 2006, at 10:44 AM, Chris Tune wrote: > I'll have to look around on these reverb issues. The real important > thing to me is that this reverb sound very good. I "may" try just > some remastering using the outboard Midiverb 4 unit. This is a 48khz > 18bit (? I think that is right) unit which really has some gorgeous > hall sounds in there. > > Chris ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 20:31:22 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] : was Eb crook for bass bone - then best Bartok gliss - now G trom in Big band To: "'Keith Marr'" , "'Trombone-L'" Message-ID: <006101c61e00$7b2392c0$0100a8c0@Adrian> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > From: Keith Marr [mailto:Mail@gothicway.fsnet.co.uk] > > Yes indeed, the prospect of playing pedals on the G bass is never > considered > in anything I've read on the subject. I guess that pedals were difficult > enough for the small bore tenor instruments and small mouthpieces of the > 1950s (speaking entirely UKwise here) and was tougher on a G. About a year or so ago I was shown a peashooter G and allowed to have a blow with its original mp. I was really surprised that it was so easy to play the pedals right down to 7th pos. I don't know if this is because I already have the embouchure for reaching the super lows. Maybe the guys who played those horns were told that C# (2 legers below) was the lowest note, so they didn't even bother to explore any further. A. ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 20:36:10 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss To: "'Raymond Horton'" Cc: 'Trombone-L' , 'Keith Marr' Message-ID: <006201c61e01$26855270$0100a8c0@Adrian> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > From: Raymond Horton [mailto:rayhorton@insightbb.com] > > Adrian, did you ever know Ray Premru? I was told that his arrival and > success in Britian with the Bb-F bass trombone had a large roll in the > demise of the G bass trombone. Do you know whether or not this is > overstatement? I never got to meet him Raymond, but I know him from the Bobby Lamb - Ray Premru Big Band days, my first experience of big band with added full French horn section. Super sound! A. ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 12:50:03 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Izzo Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss To: Raymond Horton Cc: T- List Message-ID: <20060120205003.70215.qmail@web52709.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 True Ray, I've always thought the same from Gershwin's Rhap in Blue with the pedal Bb's in 2nd Trb. Thanks, Tom --- Raymond Horton wrote: > Bartok had in mind an Bass Trombone in F from his > earlier days in > Central Europe which (presumably) had 7 full > positions, so a real > glissando from low B up to F was possible. Tom Izzo Principal Trombonist, Bristol Renaissance Faire; Bass Trombonist, West Suburban Symphony Orchestra; Founding Director, The Naperville Area Trombone Ensemble; Alto/Tenor/Bass/Contrabass Trombones, Tubas, Euphonium, Bass Trumpet, Electric Bass, Timpani & Percussion. http://www.Geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/7875/ (630) 858-7832 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 16:00:55 -0500 From: "Charles Levine" Subject: [Trombone-l] Rhap in Blue To: Message-ID: <001f01c61e04$9bc0bcc0$66b01ad1@upstairs> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Isn't that today's "Hit Parade"? ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 16:10:09 -0500 From: Raymond Horton Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss To: Tom Izzo Cc: T- List Message-ID: <43D151B1.7030405@insightbb.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed It's possible you are right, but since that's an American piece, I would say that's from the era when composers often assumed Bb tenors, no F attachments in a section. It's possible the scoring in that work may fall under that dreaded category of "3rd part is optional." Same category, definitely, IMHO: Gould "American Salute." RBH Tom Izzo wrote: >True Ray, > >I've always thought the same from Gershwin's Rhap in >Blue with the pedal Bb's in 2nd Trb. > >Thanks, > >Tom > > >--- Raymond Horton wrote: > > > >>Bartok had in mind an Bass Trombone in F from his >>earlier days in >>Central Europe which (presumably) had 7 full >>positions, so a real >>glissando from low B up to F was possible. >> >> > >Tom Izzo >Principal Trombonist, Bristol Renaissance Faire; >Bass Trombonist, West Suburban Symphony Orchestra; >Founding Director, The Naperville Area Trombone Ensemble; >Alto/Tenor/Bass/Contrabass Trombones, Tubas, Euphonium, Bass Trumpet, Electric Bass, Timpani & Percussion. >http://www.Geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/7875/ >(630) 858-7832 > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > > > ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:17:27 -0500 From: "Moran, Doug" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Any Home Recordist / Home Studio folk out there. To: Bone List , Chris Tune Message-ID: <6b34038a972808809b4021aeef07788b@denison.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Jan 20, 2006, at 11:44 AM, Chris Tune wrote: > What is that crossover frequency? That must be a point which provides > the "diction" to trombone sound (or maybe some unique quirk or useful > transient sound), as opposed to the primary or fundamental frequency > of the notes we play. Perhaps this is where much of our important > acoustic energy is directed. Or perhaps this is a "weak link" > frequency which, if not handled just right, works to oppose the > propagation of the trombone sound. . . .[hmmm . . . .think, think, > think . . .this is why I really LIKE acoustics. . .I tend to believe > that we still have more to learn in these arenas. . .particularly in > very low and mid-low frequency ranges. . . .mainly, I think this > because the human ear is very sensitive at hearing "around" here and > also because we also "feel" sound here via ultra low content] The subwoofer peaks at 84 Hz (+6 db), with a slightly lower peak at 72 Hz (+5.5 db). It crosses the 0 db line at 47 Hz and 118 Hz. I think the manufacturer (Triad) has it crossovered at 104 Hz. The crossover that my friend built is at 115 Hz, with 6 db per octave drop off. Doug ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 22:41:36 -0000 From: "Keith Marr" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss To: "Raymond Horton" , "Adrian Drover" Cc: 'Trombone-L' Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Like Adrian I never met Ray Premru, although it was a close run thing. I was lucky enough to have a couple of lessons at the Guildhall from Denis Wick way back when. At the time DW was helping Boosey & Hawkes bring out their first orchestral tenor, the Sovereign 547 (optional F valve in the tuning slide - still use one to this day on tenor gigs) and Ray Premru was, I think, involved with B&H at the time in producing the Sovereign double trigger bass. I think I'm correct in saying this was the first 2 valve independent to be produced in the UK. I remember there being a chance to meet up which didn't come off for some reason or other. I'm sorry about that because by all accounts he was a top bloke and it would've made for an interesting meeting. Ah well . . . . Perhaps I'll meet him when the saints go marchin' in! Interesting to hear the narrowbore G's pedals were easy to produce Adrian. I think as you say it was a case of not being expected to play them so nobody bothered. Keith in Bb/F/D Bass Trombone St Albans Symphony Orchestra Page Three Big Band ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 18:57:58 -0500 From: Raymond Horton Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss - now Ray Premru To: Keith Marr Cc: 'Trombone-L' Message-ID: <43D17906.400@insightbb.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed I met him once, at an ITA in Nashville, and he seemed like a true British gentleman. (I guess all those years on your side of the pond rubbed off on him.) He did a master class, and produced perhaps the warmest bass trombone sound I've ever heard. I was at the hotel when he first arrived, and the young lass of a desk clerk couldn't find his reservation at first. Ray chuckled when I came over and said to her "Don't give this man any trouble! He's played with the Beatles!" RBH Keith Marr wrote: > Like Adrian I never met Ray Premru, although it was a close run thing. > I was lucky enough to have a couple of lessons at the Guildhall from > Denis Wick way back when. At the time DW was helping Boosey & Hawkes > bring out their first orchestral tenor, the Sovereign 547 (optional F > valve in the tuning slide - still use one to this day on tenor gigs) > and Ray Premru was, I think, involved with B&H at the time in > producing the Sovereign double trigger bass. I think I'm correct in > saying this was the first 2 valve independent to be produced in the > UK. I remember there being a chance to meet up which didn't come off > for some reason or other. I'm sorry about that because by all accounts > he was a top bloke and it would've made for an interesting meeting. > > Ah well . . . . Perhaps I'll meet him when the saints go marchin' in! > > Interesting to hear the narrowbore G's pedals were easy to produce > Adrian. I think as you say it was a case of not being expected to play > them so nobody bothered. > > Keith in Bb/F/D > Bass Trombone > St Albans Symphony Orchestra > Page Three Big Band > > ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 19:15:07 -0500 From: BGuttman Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] medium shanks To: Trombone-L Message-ID: <200601201915_MC3-1-B639-C979@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Denis Wick sells a 4AY and a 6AY mouthpiece for "Yamaha Shank". I know the larger Euphs take standard large shank, and I thought I remember my friend who played a 321 needing a special mouthpiece. I have a 4AY that I use in my Whaley-Royce (Besson?) G-Bass. Bruce Guttman Londonderry, NH ------------------------------------------------------------Separator------ ------------------------------------- Message text written by Raymond Horton > Are you sure, Bruce? I've seen a number of Yamaha 321's, and they all had small shanks. (Great horn - more free blowing than compensating horns.) I have two euphoniums, both made in 1961, and both have medium shanks: a Besson 4-valve compensating and a Conn 24-I. Both are wonderful horns. Henry Howey has expressed the opinion that the Bessons sounded better when they came with medium shanks. Any decent repairperson should be able to cut a large shank down to a medium shank. I've had it done many times, although I have mine cut down extra short because the Conn tends to be flat, at least for me, and has no easy place to shorten. RBH (Bruce, please don't send me private hate mail for disputing your answer like the hot-head who did so, then "blocked me out" for my muslin vs. cotton reponse! This is not personal, but it seems life-and-death to some!) BGuttman wrote: >Message text written by "Lisa & Patrick Bates" > > >Good question! I'll add to it. Anyone know where someone could get one "off >the shelf"? Our local community band had a horn donated that needs one, and >I'm the only guy in the area that had half a clue what the problem was! >Something mainstream that I can get through a local dealer would be >nice............< > >There are actually two different "Medium" shanks, one originally for the >Boosey / Besson Euphonium, and one for the Yamaha 321 Euphonium. > >Denis Wick has both types. One is M, and one is Y. I got a 4AY for an old >G-Bass trombone and it works great. > >I think the M and Y shanks are available in 4 and 6 cups. > >Good luck. > >Bruce Guttman >Londonderry, NH > > < ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 16:31:49 -0800 From: "Chris Tune" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss - now Ray Premru To: "Raymond Horton" , "Keith Marr" Cc: 'Trombone-L' Message-ID: <029901c61e22$11fe7d10$0400a8c0@athlon2800> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original I take it from the course of this conversation that Ray Premru, LSO Bass Trombonist, was not originally from England, but had most of his career worked there. Perhaps someone has a brief biography they could post. Sounds like an interesting story. He is part of that great section that I enjoy so much. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Raymond Horton" To: "Keith Marr" Cc: "'Trombone-L'" Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 3:57 PM Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss - now Ray Premru >I met him once, at an ITA in Nashville, and he seemed like a true > British gentleman. (I guess all those years on your side of the pond > rubbed off on him.) He did a master class, and produced perhaps the > warmest bass trombone sound I've ever heard. > > I was at the hotel when he first arrived, and the young lass of a desk > clerk couldn't find his reservation at first. Ray chuckled when I came > over and said to her "Don't give this man any trouble! He's played with > the Beatles!" > > RBH > > Keith Marr wrote: > >> Like Adrian I never met Ray Premru, although it was a close run thing. >> I was lucky enough to have a couple of lessons at the Guildhall from >> Denis Wick way back when. At the time DW was helping Boosey & Hawkes >> bring out their first orchestral tenor, the Sovereign 547 (optional F >> valve in the tuning slide - still use one to this day on tenor gigs) >> and Ray Premru was, I think, involved with B&H at the time in >> producing the Sovereign double trigger bass. I think I'm correct in >> saying this was the first 2 valve independent to be produced in the >> UK. I remember there being a chance to meet up which didn't come off >> for some reason or other. I'm sorry about that because by all accounts >> he was a top bloke and it would've made for an interesting meeting. >> >> Ah well . . . . Perhaps I'll meet him when the saints go marchin' in! >> >> Interesting to hear the narrowbore G's pedals were easy to produce >> Adrian. I think as you say it was a case of not being expected to play >> them so nobody bothered. >> >> Keith in Bb/F/D >> Bass Trombone >> St Albans Symphony Orchestra >> Page Three Big Band >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 00:46:32 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss- now Ray Premru To: "'Chris Tune'" , "'Raymond Horton'" , "'Keith Marr'" Cc: 'Trombone-L' Message-ID: <007c01c61e24$2016aa10$0100a8c0@Adrian> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > From: Chris Tune > Sent: 21 January 2006 00:32 > To: Raymond Horton; Keith Marr > Cc: 'Trombone-L' > Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok > gliss- now Ray Premru > > I take it from the course of this conversation that Ray Premru, LSO Bass > Trombonist, was not originally from England, but had most of his career > worked there. Perhaps someone has a brief biography they could post. > Sounds like an interesting story. He is part of that great section that I > enjoy so much. Here's one link for you to start with Chris. http://www.jazzprofessional.com/interviews/lamb%20premru%20interview.htm I caught this band at Ronnie Scott's club in London, early '70s. A. ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 18:18:32 -0800 From: "Chris Tune" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss- now Ray Premru To: "Adrian Drover" , "'Raymond Horton'" , "'Keith Marr'" Cc: 'Trombone-L' Message-ID: <02a901c61e30$fa549af0$0400a8c0@athlon2800> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original That is pretty interesting 1971 interview. . . . Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Drover" To: "'Chris Tune'" ; "'Raymond Horton'" ; "'Keith Marr'" Cc: "'Trombone-L'" Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 4:46 PM Subject: RE: [Trombone-l] FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss- now Ray Premru > > >> From: Chris Tune >> Sent: 21 January 2006 00:32 >> To: Raymond Horton; Keith Marr >> Cc: 'Trombone-L' >> Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok >> gliss- now Ray Premru >> >> I take it from the course of this conversation that Ray Premru, LSO Bass >> Trombonist, was not originally from England, but had most of his career >> worked there. Perhaps someone has a brief biography they could post. >> Sounds like an interesting story. He is part of that great section that >> I >> enjoy so much. > > > Here's one link for you to start with Chris. > > http://www.jazzprofessional.com/interviews/lamb%20premru%20interview.htm > > I caught this band at Ronnie Scott's club in London, early '70s. > > A. > > > ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 22:11:44 -0500 From: George Carr Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss- now Ray Premru To: Chris Tune Cc: Trombone-L , Keith Marr Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Indeed, and if anyone has recordings or the Lamb-Remru band, I'd be very interested in knowing about them. I have one later recording of Bobby Lamb, playing the Bob Florence book with the Trinity Big Band, recorded in London in 1993 ("Trinity Fair"), and of course many of Ray's 'legit' recordings,* but I'd love to hear more of either of them. George *including one of Ray's masterpiece recordings, recorded after Ray moved to Ohio and started teaching at Oberlin, with the High Anxiety Bones, called Too Scared to Play ..., which is almost heartbreakingly good. On 1/20/06, Chris Tune wrote: > That is pretty interesting 1971 interview. . . . ------------------------------ Message: 21 Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 23:21:51 -0600 From: Dave Tall Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Eb crook for bass bone To: George Carr , Trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20060120232151.013cbe20@mail.mchsi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:04 AM 1/19/2006 -0500, George Carr wrote: >> When independant horns came on the market, all that was done was move the whole step valve out of the F tubing and onto the main line behind the F valve. By itself the valve become known as the G valve. Two triggers down still gave Eb in first, but now the second trigger could be used by itself. Having a G valve added a great deal of facility for those brave enough to use it alone. Many players at this time were still wed to the idea of the second valve only being used in conjuntion with the first valve. >> > >This is the historical part that confuses me. When the whole-step >valve is independent, and used by itself, doesn't it shift the horn >from Bb to Ab? Why is it called a G valve? It's the length of a whole step for the instrument plus the F valve tubing. This is longer than a whole step for the Bb instrument. The slide location for low Eb with the valve is somewhere between open 3rd and open 4th position. This is the length of the "whole step" tubing; it's a whole step on an instrument in F, not one in Bb. Therefore, that amount of tubing puts the open instrument in a somewhat sharp G. Dave Tall Bass Trombonist New Mexico Symphony ------------------------------ Message: 22 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 02:27:23 -0500 From: "Bonemaster" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] FW: Eb crook- now Ray Premru To: "Trombone-L" Message-ID: <006501c61e5c$1f2dd640$23a23c45@america.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I have a recording of the Lamb-Premru band w/Buddy Rich sitting in and playing against Lamb. Mid-80's, I believe, on a European label. QUITE a good band! Bob Devine Atlanta -----Original Message----- From: trombone-l-bounces@samford.edu [mailto:trombone-l-bounces@samford.edu]On Behalf Of George Carr Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 10:12 PM To: Chris Tune Cc: Trombone-L; Keith Marr Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartokgliss- now Ray Premru Indeed, and if anyone has recordings or the Lamb-Remru band, I'd be very interested in knowing about them. I have one later recording of Bobby Lamb, playing the Bob Florence book with the Trinity Big Band, recorded in London in 1993 ("Trinity Fair"), and of course many of Ray's 'legit' recordings,* but I'd love to hear more of either of them. George *including one of Ray's masterpiece recordings, recorded after Ray moved to Ohio and started teaching at Oberlin, with the High Anxiety Bones, called Too Scared to Play ..., which is almost heartbreakingly good. On 1/20/06, Chris Tune wrote: > That is pretty interesting 1971 interview. . . . _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 23 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 05:36:47 -0500 From: "John Burton" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Eb crook for bass bone To: Message-ID: <2C761FD6AEB2B640BF5524B1DD167C9D5BFA@centralstorage.johnburton.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This has been one of the more interesting threads in a long time. Ever since jumping to the "dark side" about three years ago when I picked up this 50B3 I have wondered about tubing lengths. I asked this question one time before, but I'm not sure I understood the answer. Maybe I'll understand this time. It *LOOKS* as tho when both rotors on an *independent* system are engaged the resultant length is longer than when both rotors on a *dependant* system are engaged. Is this true or are my eyes deceiving me? And if so, doesn't that mean, in theory the INDEPENDENT collection of rotors has a theoretical ability to play a pedal BBb or even a touch lower? I'm guessing this since I can play the pedal Bb tone without dropping into pedal sound .. If that makes sense. Is it too early in the morning, or am I just missing something here? ~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~= john burton Bach 50B3 Bass Trombone, Charleston NeoPhonic Orchestra South Charleston, West Virginia > -----Original Message----- > From: trombone-l-bounces@samford.edu > [mailto:trombone-l-bounces@samford.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Tall > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 12:22 AM > To: George Carr; Trombone-l@server5.samford.edu > Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Eb crook for bass bone > > At 09:04 AM 1/19/2006 -0500, George Carr wrote: > >> When independant horns came on the market, all that was > done was move > the whole step valve out of the F tubing and onto the main > line behind the F valve. By itself the valve become known as > the G valve. Two triggers down still gave Eb in first, but > now the second trigger could be used by itself. Having a G > valve added a great deal of facility for those brave enough > to use it alone. Many players at this time were still wed to > the idea of the second valve only being used in conjuntion > with the first valve. > >> > > > >This is the historical part that confuses me. When the whole-step > >valve is independent, and used by itself, doesn't it shift the horn > >from Bb to Ab? Why is it called a G valve? > > It's the length of a whole step for the instrument plus the F > valve tubing. > This is longer than a whole step for the Bb instrument. The > slide location for low Eb with the valve is somewhere between > open 3rd and open 4th position. This is the length of the > "whole step" tubing; it's a whole step on an instrument in F, > not one in Bb. Therefore, that amount of tubing puts the > open instrument in a somewhat sharp G. > > > > > Dave Tall > Bass Trombonist > New Mexico Symphony > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > ------------------------------ Message: 24 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 05:44:47 -0500 From: "Charles Levine" Subject: [Trombone-l] C-crook? To: Message-ID: <001f01c61e77$bc0b8190$44b01ad1@upstairs> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Why not a crook that would put low C in first position? ------------------------------ Message: 25 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 10:02:48 -0500 From: Raymond Horton Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] C-crook? To: Charles Levine Cc: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: <43D24D18.4030808@insightbb.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Ed Anderson (former BT, Cleveland Orch, then taught at IU for a number of years, played extra with us a couple of times I'm proud to say) had his Bach 50 in-line tuned to Bb - F - C. Never used the valves together. The valve tubing was something to see - the C slide turned back toward the bell. RBH LO Charles Levine wrote: >Why not a crook that would put low C in first position? >_______________________________________________ >Trombone-l mailing list >Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > > ------------------------------ Message: 26 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 10:16:36 -0500 From: Chris Dearth Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] C-crook? To: Raymond Horton , Charles Levine Cc: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII That horn is one heavy SOB!! It also had a Custom Heavy 11" Bach Gold brass bell. We played a gig in Bloomington with the Camerata Chamber Orchestra (a IU faculty/student orchestra) and were posing for pictures afterward for a buddy of mine who was playing. Ed said, "You hold mine and I'll hold yours". I swear that horn was the weight of 2 of my tenors easily! Woof. I've tried other basses that aren't even close to this weight class. It is indeed the Sumo of bass trombones without going up to a contra. Chris Dearth Principal Trombone, West Virginia Symphony Adjunct Instructor, West Virginia Wesleyan -- On 1/21/06 10:02 AM, "Raymond Horton" wrote: > Ed Anderson (former BT, Cleveland Orch, then taught at IU for a number > of years, played extra with us a couple of times I'm proud to say) had > his Bach 50 in-line tuned to Bb - F - C. Never used the valves > together. The valve tubing was something to see - the C slide turned > back toward the bell. > > RBH > LO > > Charles Levine wrote: > >> Why not a crook that would put low C in first position? >> _______________________________________________ >> Trombone-l mailing list >> Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 27 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 15:38:57 -0000 From: "Keith Marr" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Eb crook for bass bone To: "John Burton" , Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> This has been one of the more interesting threads in a long time. >> Ever since jumping to the "dark side" about three years ago when I >> picked up this 50B3 I have wondered about tubing lengths. I asked this >> question one time before, but I'm not sure I understood the answer. >> Maybe I'll understand this time. >> It *LOOKS* as tho when both rotors on an *independent* system are >> engaged the resultant length is longer than when both rotors on a >> *dependant* system are engaged. >> Is this true or are my eyes deceiving me? >> Same overall tubing length (has to be to produce the same fundamental), just a different journey for the air to travel. Those of us who use dependent systems prefer 'em as there's less interference with the main tubing, although if what Sam says about the Trubore valve is right that might be a thing of the past. >> And if so, doesn't that mean, in theory the INDEPENDENT collection of >> rotors has a theoretical ability to play a pedal BBb or even a touch >> lower? I'm guessing this since I can play the pedal Bb tone without >> dropping into pedal sound .. If that makes sense. >> Not just theoretical John. The double pedal Bb, or pedal BBb if you pefer, is there waiting for you to find it. With a bit of loose embouchure you might even be good get a good enough AA (haven't managed that myself yet except once by accident!). If you check out Adrian Drover's website he has, somewhere on there, a warm-up routine you can download which ends up on three long BBbs as a warm-down. Cheers! Keith in Bb/F/D Bass Trombone St Albans Symphony Orchestra Page Three Big Band ------------------------------ Message: 28 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 07:46:53 -0800 From: Tony Clements Subject: [Trombone-l] TruBore vs Thayer To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I just picked up a Shires with both sets of valves here are MY observations: The TruBore valves play great through the un-valved horn. I have never played a bass trombone that played more open, EXCEPT when I put the straight pipe (& took the valves OFF) on the old Edwards. The Thayers still play more open and free down low, particularly low C & B, and low Bb with slide & valves. Just my 2 cents' worth. Tony Clements ------------------------------ Message: 29 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 10:21:54 -0600 From: "Bill Dinwiddie" Subject: [Trombone-l] Mystic circle To: "List Trombone" Message-ID: <005f01c61ea6$cb52e650$0a00a8c0@av> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original I know this is a little off the beaten path, but it's cool. I was wondering if any of you highly intelligent folks on the List can figure out how this works? Trombonists are very good problem solvers. Let me know if you know how this works. I do not have a solution. No prizes. Sorry. Try this. It works. http://trunks.secondfoundation.org/files/psychic.swf Bill Dinwiddie billdin@comcast.net ------------------------------ Message: 30 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 16:33:20 -0000 From: "Keith Marr" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Mystic circle To: "Bill Dinwiddie" , "List Trombone" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Spooky! I'm gonna go practice . . . . :-) Keith in Bb/F/D ----- Original Message ----- Subject: [Trombone-l] Mystic circle >I know this is a little off the beaten path, but it's cool. I was wondering > if any of you highly intelligent folks on the List can figure out how > this > works? Trombonists are very good problem solvers. > > Let me know if you know how this works. I do not have a solution. ------------------------------ Message: 31 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 16:37:58 +0000 From: basstrb3@comcast.net Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok gliss - now Ray Premru To: Chris Tune , "Raymond Horton" , "Keith Marr" Cc: 'Trombone-L' Message-ID: <012120061637.1043.43D26365000E0B0F000004132207020853CC0D9D9B9C9C0E0D@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain I'm sure someone has this all written down better than this, but... Ray was born in New York State [Elmira, I think] and went to England shortly after graduating from Eastman. Other details, anyone? Phil Brink -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Chris Tune" > I take it from the course of this conversation that Ray Premru, LSO Bass > Trombonist, was not originally from England, but had most of his career > worked there. Perhaps someone has a brief biography they could post. > Sounds like an interesting story. He is part of that great section that I > enjoy so much. > > Chris > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Raymond Horton" > To: "Keith Marr" > Cc: "'Trombone-L'" > Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 3:57 PM > Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] FW: Eb crook for bass bone - now best Bartok > gliss - now Ray Premru > > > >I met him once, at an ITA in Nashville, and he seemed like a true > > British gentleman. (I guess all those years on your side of the pond > > rubbed off on him.) He did a master class, and produced perhaps the > > warmest bass trombone sound I've ever heard. > > > > I was at the hotel when he first arrived, and the young lass of a desk > > clerk couldn't find his reservation at first. Ray chuckled when I came > > over and said to her "Don't give this man any trouble! He's played with > > the Beatles!" > > > > RBH > > > > Keith Marr wrote: > > > >> Like Adrian I never met Ray Premru, although it was a close run thing. > >> I was lucky enough to have a couple of lessons at the Guildhall from > >> Denis Wick way back when. At the time DW was helping Boosey & Hawkes > >> bring out their first orchestral tenor, the Sovereign 547 (optional F > >> valve in the tuning slide - still use one to this day on tenor gigs) > >> and Ray Premru was, I think, involved with B&H at the time in > >> producing the Sovereign double trigger bass. I think I'm correct in > >> saying this was the first 2 valve independent to be produced in the > >> UK. I remember there being a chance to meet up which didn't come off > >> for some reason or other. I'm sorry about that because by all accounts > >> he was a top bloke and it would've made for an interesting meeting. > >> > >> Ah well . . . . Perhaps I'll meet him when the saints go marchin' in! > >> > >> Interesting to hear the narrowbore G's pedals were easy to produce > >> Adrian. I think as you say it was a case of not being expected to play > >> them so nobody bothered. > >> > >> Keith in Bb/F/D > >> Bass Trombone > >> St Albans Symphony Orchestra > >> Page Three Big Band > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Trombone-l mailing list > > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l ------------------------------ Message: 32 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 10:40:58 -0600 From: Robert Holland Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Mystic circle To: "Trb. List" Message-ID: <63d8908a83abc414a9d65a9692a99b19@rcn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Bill Dinwiddie wrote: > I know this is a little off the beaten path, but it's cool. I was > wondering > if any of you highly intelligent folks on the List can figure out how > this > works? Trombonists are very good problem solvers. > > Let me know if you know how this works. I do not have a solution. The instructions are a simple algorithmic equation. (There is probably a way of expressing it mathematically, but I don't care that much.) The result is always a multiple of 9. If you scan the table of symbols, all the multiples of 9 are the same symbol, though they change from play to play. Clearly, there is no mind reading going on. Why isn't there a trombone symbol there? Robert Holland, Publisher Briar Music Press briar@rcn.com www.briarmusic.com ------------------------------ Message: 33 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 12:11:01 -0500 From: Roger Hecht Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Mystic circle To: "Bill Dinwiddie" , "List Trombone" Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.0.20060121120605.01cca3d8@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:21 AM 1/21/2006, Bill Dinwiddie wrote: >I know this is a little off the beaten path, but it's cool. I was wondering >if >any of you highly intelligent folks on the List can figure out how this >works? >Trombonists are very good problem solvers. > >Let me know if you know how this works. I do not have a solution. > >No prizes. Sorry. > > The next time you try this, do the following. 1) Pick your number, do the operation asked for, note the symbol next to the answer. Do not press the gadget that gives gives you the symbol you landed on. 2) Pick another number, do the same operation. You will note that the resulting number is next to the same symbol you got the first time. No matter what number you pick, the process brings you to an answer with the same symbol. Now memorize a number and symbol combination or two. Press the gadget this time. Note the new display. It should have different symbols next to the numbers, but the whole thing will be rigged to give one of the symbols no matter what number you choose. > Try this. It works. > > http://trunks.secondfoundation.org/files/psychic.swf > > > Bill Dinwiddie > billdin@comcast.net > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Trombone-l mailing list >Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu >http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l Roger Hecht ------------------------------ Message: 34 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 11:43:27 -0600 From: "Bill Dinwiddie" Subject: [Trombone-l] Fw: Mystic circle To: "List Trombone" Message-ID: <003a01c61eb2$2f73fba0$0a00a8c0@av> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Thanks to Keith Marr, Marius Helga and Bob Holland for what I thought were excellent answers. You guys are way ahead of me! I also received an answer (see below) from my friend Cary Davids, who not only plays excellent trumpet, but is a physicist at Argonne National Laboratory, and probably knows a thing or three about math. Bill Dinwiddie ********************************************************************************************* Pick a 2-digit number, say ab. The ACTUAL value of the number is 10a + b. When you sum the digits you get a + b. Subtracting the second number from the original number gives you: 10a + b - (a + b) = 9a. So a can be any number from 0 to 9, and if you know your 9 times table, you will find the same symbol next to all those numbers: 0,9,18,27,36,45,54,63,72,81. The other numbers having the same symbols are just decoys. Cary Davids On Jan 21, 2006, at 10:10 AM, Bill Dinwiddie wrote: Thanks to John DeRoule for the following: Can any of you highly intelligent folks figure out how this works? Let me know. No prizes. Sorry. Try this. It works. http://trunks.secondfoundation.org/files/psychic.swf Bill Dinwiddie billdin@comcast.net ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l End of Trombone-l Digest, Vol 12, Issue 20 ******************************************