Subject: Trombone-l Digest, Vol 1, Issue 8 Date: Friday, February 18, 2005 12:00 PM From: trombone-l-request@samford.edu Reply-To: trombone-l@samford.edu To: Send Trombone-l mailing list submissions to trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to trombone-l-request@maillists.samford.edu You can reach the person managing the list at trombone-l-owner@maillists.samford.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Trombone-l digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: King Basses (Charles De Paolo) 2. Re: King Basses (thetubameister@adelphia.net) 3. Re: King Basses (Art Triggs) 4. Re: Recommendations needed - brass quartet, gospel pieces (prbrass@juno.com) 5. Re: King Basses (Steve Beck) 6. A Beginner's Observation (onyourmarksetg0) 7. Re: A Beginner's Observation (darylburch@speakeasy.net) 8. Re: A Beginner's Observation (Daniel Pliskin) 9. WTB: Leadpipes (Daniel Cloutier) 10. Follow-up: Quintet & band repertoire... (Greg Bergantz) 11. Re: King Basses (Keith Marr) 12. Re: King Basses (Keith Marr) 13. RE: King Basses (Mikel K. Smith) 14. Re: King Basses (Lisa & Patrick Bates) 15. Re: King Basses (BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com) From: Charles De Paolo Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:29:44 -0500 To: Trombone List Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] King Basses I'm not sure any bass with a dependant setup like that employed on the King 6B would be a good first choice for a person not used to valves. The 6B uses a double thumb trigger that, to be charitable, can be somewhat difficult to operate. The action is short and the springs are stiff, requiring more than the usual amount of heft in the left thumb to make the thing go. And when you need to operate both valves, the effort is twice as much. And then there's the whole ugly issue of sliding the thumb back and forth to engage/disengage the 2nd valve while the first is still in operation. Hurts just thinking about it. I'm inclined to recommend a Yamaha YBL631 single trigger or something similar as a crossover or starter bass. It's easy to play, has a great response and a sound that's good for just about anything short of full bore fff symphonic work. To compliment, a good downsized mouthpiece might be used, something in the region of Schilke 57, 58 or Bach 2G or 3G. Perception might be reality in this case. I think folks perceive the 6B as a "small" bass trombone (and thus easier to play when moving up from a peashooter) because to the eye it does appear small compared to other models in use today. The wrap is closed and tight, the slide is narrow, and I think the bell might only be 9 inches (most standard bass bells are 9.5" to 10"). That being said, from a playability standpoint what really matters is the bore, which is an industry standard 0.562". The horn thus requires just as much air as a Bach 50B3, but to me, the response has always been lousy (based on 2 6B's I've played over the years). Of course, as is the case with any instrument, it's all about individual taste and perception. Caveat Emptor! FWIW --Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: Mikel K. Smith To: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 10:41 AM Subject: [Trombone-l] King Basses This discussion of bass bones has brought to mind something I've been curious about - did King ever make any of their basses (6B Duo Gravis, 7B or 8B) in "Silversonic" version? While we're at it, what's the opinions on a Duo Gravis as a 'crossover' bass for someone who's primarily played a 3B for 30+ years, now using both it and a 4B? My thinking is that the dependant setup would be easier for someone not terribly comfortable with a valve in the first place - my 3B is a straight horn, and on the 4B I only use the valve if the passage is slow enough for me to think about it - I'm still getting used to it. Mikel _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l From: Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:25:40 -0500 To: Cc: Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] King Basses And speaking of individual tastes and perceptions.... I love the 6B Duo Gravis. I think that, though still a 9.5" bell and a standard .562 bore slide, it speakes very easy and - with a yellow brass bell - has an easy crescendo, and with the lightweight slide, a very easy attack. With a sterling bell, you can peal paint! As for the lever setup - to each their own. It's never bothered me. But I am more used to the more conventional setup. If anyone charged more than $100 or so to make a new lever - you'd be a victim of theft. But you might like the lever setup - I do! The 6B feels much smaller than a Bach, but it doesn't sound more than a little brighter, and it will feel remarkably similar to your 4B with only a slightly larger mouthpiece - 3-1.5G, and the lever will feel very similar. Plus, it has a bell brace to hang onto - something I 've never understood when it comes to othe Bass trombones why when doubling the weight of th instrument (from a tenor) do you remove one of the only support points for holding it?! Thank God for the bullet brace! My $.02 J.c.S. ---- Charles De Paolo wrote: > I'm not sure any bass with a dependant setup like that employed on the King 6B would be a good first choice for a person not used to valves. The 6B uses a double thumb trigger that, to be charitable, can be somewhat difficult to operate. The action is short and the springs are stiff, requiring more than the usual amount of heft in the left thumb to make the thing go. And when you need to operate both valves, the effort is twice as much. And then there's the whole ugly issue of sliding the thumb back and forth to engage/disengage the 2nd valve while the first is still in operation. Hurts just thinking about it. I'm inclined to recommend a Yamaha YBL631 single trigger or something similar as a crossover or starter bass. It's easy to play, has a great response and a sound that's good for just about anything short of full bore fff symphonic work. To compliment, a good downsized mouthpiece might be used, something in the region of Schilke 57, 58 or Bach 2G or 3G. > > Perception might be reality in this case. I think folks perceive the 6B as a "small" bass trombone (and thus easier to play when moving up from a peashooter) because to the eye it does appear small compared to other models in use today. The wrap is closed and tight, the slide is narrow, and I think the bell might only be 9 inches (most standard bass bells are 9.5" to 10"). That being said, from a playability standpoint what really matters is the bore, which is an industry standard 0.562". The horn thus requires just as much air as a Bach 50B3, but to me, the response has always been lousy (based on 2 6B's I've played over the years). > > Of course, as is the case with any instrument, it's all about individual taste and perception. Caveat Emptor! > > FWIW > --Chuck > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mikel K. Smith > To: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu > Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 10:41 AM > Subject: [Trombone-l] King Basses > > > This discussion of bass bones has brought to mind something I've been > curious about - did King ever make any of their basses (6B Duo Gravis, 7B or > 8B) in "Silversonic" version? > > While we're at it, what's the opinions on a Duo Gravis as a 'crossover' bass > for someone who's primarily played a 3B for 30+ years, now using both it and > a 4B? My thinking is that the dependant setup would be easier for someone > not terribly comfortable with a valve in the first place - my 3B is a > straight horn, and on the 4B I only use the valve if the passage is slow > enough for me to think about it - I'm still getting used to it. > > Mikel > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l From: Art Triggs Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:44:01 -0500 To: Trombone List Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] King Basses I'm usually not all that outspoken about something like this, but there are some facts that aren't there that may be helpful, the Duo Gravis (6b) made from the late sixties until sometime in the early eighties was, one of the earlier double valve bass trombones to be designed, the valve lever mechanism is awkward, but nowhere near as much as some others of that time, say, Conn,Bach,Reynolds, Olds. The bore of the instrument was .562 throughout the entire instrument, unlike almost all the others except Holton, which were .562 in the slide, and .593 in the valve section. The Holton used .585 tube in their valve sections for some reason (it worked so what the heck) The bell, while flaring to 9 5/8" was similar in the taper to the Conn 72-73h, or the reynolds Contempora, as opposed to the "fast" taper of the Bach or Holton. The result , on a "good" instrument was a "bright" sounding instrument that would project, and was relatively easy to play, as a result it gained a reputation for being a "commercial" or "jazz" horn. It's unfortunate that Chuck tried two that werent great, the sterling versions I tried were both very nice, and if I had the money at the time , would have bought one.(I played Conns almost all the time through 69-77) (note , by the time I had the cash to buy one, and weren't as well suited or "fashionable" for the work I was doing at the time. Art Triggs From: "prbrass@juno.com" Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:09:38 GMT To: Cc: Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Recommendations needed - brass quartet, gospel pieces Check out also the Salvation Army's American Instrumental Ensemble Series (AEIS). They are basically four parts plus an optional fifth part and a percussion part. You can easily assign the soprano part to trumpet 1, the alto part to trumpet 2, the tenor part to trombone 1 and the bass part to trombone 2. Notice that these series, first developed by James Curnow in the 1980's, offer trombone, baritone, euphonium, and tuba parts in either treble Bb or Bass cleff. The AEIS offer a variety of gospel sing-alongs at various levels of difficulty. In you case, I recommend levels 3 and 4. However, levels 1 and 2 might be difficult as well. According to some professional instrumentalist that I know, the simpler the music looks on paper, the more difficult it becomes to interpret. Luis From: Steve Beck Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 16:32:40 -0500 To: Cc: "TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu" Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] King Basses bonemstr@america.net wrote: > would indicate that the Hnt brothers had already wreaked havoc on th eprice of silver, which is why King stopped sterling bells >in about 1974. > Hunt brothers were more like early 1980's. From: onyourmarksetg0 Reply-To: onyourmarksetg0 Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:26:17 -0500 To: Subject: [Trombone-l] A Beginner's Observation Trombone players are the friendliest, most helpful of all the brass players. The trombone is a naturally jolly instrument and seems to attract nice people. From: Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 00:00:26 +0000 To: onyourmarksetg0 , Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] A Beginner's Observation Just don't feed them! Or you'll NEVER get them off your couch! #;-) -D- www.radionoise.com > -----Original Message----- > From: onyourmarksetg0 [mailto:onyourmarksetg0@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 11:26 PM > To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu > Subject: [Trombone-l] A Beginner's Observation > > Trombone players are the friendliest, most helpful of all the brass > players. The trombone is a naturally jolly instrument and seems to > attract nice people. > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > From: Daniel Pliskin Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 00:17:46 +0000 To: Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] A Beginner's Observation > > Trombone players are the friendliest, most helpful of all the brass > > players. The trombone is a naturally jolly instrument and seems to > > attract nice people. >Just don't feed them! Or you'll NEVER get them off your couch! #;-) Jeez, Daryl, how you hyperbolize! Now really, it was only four months·well, maybe 4 ¸ months, but, really, no longer than five months. And I did thank you for all the beer and stuff. No really, I was really grateful. And it wasnât exactly my fault that your marriage kinda fell apart when I was there. How was I to know that she couldnât sleep when someone was playing trombone·really. I just figured that you play trombone, so, well, you know. And we were best buds, so I figured·. And, yea, it took a while but I even paid you back most of the money I borrowed. DanP From: Daniel Cloutier Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:23:23 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: [Trombone-l] WTB: Leadpipes Hello, all. I'm looking for some leadpipes and was wondering if anyone had what I'm looking for. 1) King 4B or 5B leadpipe, new or good condition. 2) Edwards Silver T-1 and/or T-2 leadpipes. I'm actually looking to see if anyone has one (or more) of these that has been damaged enough that they no longer can use it (I'm planning on some odd projects with them). Thanks and let me know. DRC __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From: Greg Bergantz Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:35:52 -0800 To: Subject: [Trombone-l] Follow-up: Quintet & band repertoire... Thanks to everyone who replied with recommendations about pieces for brass quintet and concert band. From a little "web diving" and some valuable feedback from my trombone-L colleagues, I've come up with the following list of available pieces written for brass quintet and concert band. This is not a short list because it's my "short list," so to speak. Believe it or not, it's the entire list. If you run across more, please send me the info. 1. The Cascades - Concerto For Brass Quintet and Chamber Orchestra/Wind Ensemble by Dan Maske note: www.danmaske.com 2. Concerto for Brass Quintet by Frigyes Hidas note: www.stormworks-europe.com/catalogue.html 3. Concerto for Brass Quintet by Stephen Paulus note: www.stephenpaulus.com; Paulus Publications 4. Concerto Grosso For Brass Quintet and Wind Ensemble by Fisher Tull note: Boosey & Hawkes, publisher 5. Shadowcatcher by Eric Ewazen note: www.ericewazen.com Southern Music, Co., rental only, $250/mo 6. That's A Plenty For Brass Quintet with Concert Band note: Canadian Brass Pub., available, $60; Apparently, there's a lot of Canadian Brass arrangements for concert band and brass quintet as heard on the following CD: www.musicexpert.com/8913127.html (not sure if they're all available) From: Keith Marr Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 01:40:08 -0000 To: Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] King Basses When I bought my King Duo Gravis, which at that time was described in the catalogue as the 7B, it cost me £500 (this was in 1975). I could've had a silversonic version for £650. Couldn't afford it at the time - I was only earning £50 a week! Regret it now looking back - should've borrowed £150 from somewhere. Keith in Bb/F/D -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.306 / Virus Database: 265.8.9 - Release Date: 17/02/2005 From: Keith Marr Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 01:40:20 -0000 To: Trombone List Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] King Basses I've heard this often on this list. All I can say is I found the setup very easy to use, and a lot easier on the weight displacement than the modern paddle system. I played one for 30 years with no wrist strain. Three months into using a Holton 181 I had a severe strain through trying to hold the thing with the 4th and 5th fingers whilst the 1st rests on the leadpipe, the 2nd works the paddle and the thumb works the F valve. The King also had a finger ring on the mouthpipe which minimised the stretch. Must have been all of £1's worth of metal and welding! Keith in Bb/F/D ----- Original Message ----- The King uses a double thumb trigger that, to be charitable, can be somewhat difficult to operate. The action is short and the springs are stiff, requiring more than the usual amount of heft in the left thumb to make the thing go. And when you need to operate both valves, the effort is twice as much. And then there's the whole ugly issue of sliding the thumb back and forth to engage/disengage the 2nd valve while the first is still in operation. Hurts just thinking about it. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.306 / Virus Database: 265.8.9 - Release Date: 17/02/2005 From: "Mikel K. Smith" Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:52:27 -0500 To: Trombone List Subject: RE: [Trombone-l] King Basses This pretty much makes up my mind - I have carpal tunnel, so minimizing wrist strain is worth a lot to me. My 4B has the finger ring also, and I like it. Now all I have to do is find a Duo Gravis Silversonic I can afford! Mikel -----Original Message----- From: trombone-l-bounces@samford.edu [mailto:trombone-l-bounces@samford.edu]On Behalf Of Keith Marr Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 8:40 PM To: Trombone List Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] King Basses I've heard this often on this list. All I can say is I found the setup very easy to use, and a lot easier on the weight displacement than the modern paddle system. I played one for 30 years with no wrist strain. Three months into using a Holton 181 I had a severe strain through trying to hold the thing with the 4th and 5th fingers whilst the 1st rests on the leadpipe, the 2nd works the paddle and the thumb works the F valve. The King also had a finger ring on the mouthpipe which minimised the stretch. Must have been all of £1's worth of metal and welding! Keith in Bb/F/D ----- Original Message ----- The King uses a double thumb trigger that, to be charitable, can be somewhat difficult to operate. The action is short and the springs are stiff, requiring more than the usual amount of heft in the left thumb to make the thing go. And when you need to operate both valves, the effort is twice as much. And then there's the whole ugly issue of sliding the thumb back and forth to engage/disengage the 2nd valve while the first is still in operation. Hurts just thinking about it. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.306 / Virus Database: 265.8.9 - Release Date: 17/02/2005 _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l From: Lisa & Patrick Bates Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 06:24:39 -0500 To: Trombone List Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] King Basses I'm with Keith. I've had one for several years and get along fine with the side by side triggers. It may have a lot to do with the way an individual's hand fits the horn. One size does not fit all! And I like the short action too. Patrick Bates Bass bone Chatham Concert Band & Primitive Roots Jazz Band > I've heard this often on this list. All I can say is I found the setup very > easy to use, and a lot easier on the weight displacement than the modern > paddle system. I played one for 30 years with no wrist strain. Three months > into using a Holton 181 I had a severe strain through trying to hold the > thing with the 4th and 5th fingers whilst the 1st rests on the leadpipe, the > 2nd works the paddle and the thumb works the F valve. The King also had a > finger ring on the mouthpipe which minimised the stretch. Must have been all > of £1's worth of metal and welding! > > Keith in Bb/F/D > > ----- Original Message ----- > The King uses a double thumb trigger that, to be charitable, can be somewhat > difficult to operate. The action is short and the springs are stiff, > requiring more than the usual amount of heft in the left thumb to make the > thing go. And when you need to operate both valves, the effort is twice as > much. And then there's the whole ugly issue of sliding the thumb back and > forth to engage/disengage the 2nd valve while the first is still in > operation. Hurts just thinking about it. > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.306 / Virus Database: 265.8.9 - Release Date: 17/02/2005 > > _______________________________________________ > Trombone-l mailing list > Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l > > From: Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:16:51 EST To: , Cc: Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] King Basses Yeah the Hunt Bros got caught in the early '80s, but they were manipulating the silver market for a long time before they got caught. beldon wade _______________________________________________ Trombone-l mailing list Trombone-l@maillists.samford.edu http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l