Subject: TROMBONE-L digest 286 Date: Sunday, January 23, 2005 12:01 AM From: Multiple recipients of list To: Multiple recipients of list TROMBONE-L Digest 286 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Quartet music for a memorial by BITEensemble@aol.com 2) Birthday by "Phil Burton" 3) Orchestra Bows: A Survey by ALEX ILES 4) Re: Birthday by "prbrass@juno.com" 5) JJ's Birthday by "Bill Dinwiddie" 6) Re: Birthday by Gussieboy@aol.com 7) Re: Birthday by "Jim Lee" 8) Re: Birthday by Jeff Albert 9) Re: Birthday by Gussieboy@aol.com 10) JJ's Birthday by "Bill Dinwiddie" 11) Re: JJ's Birthday by c mandernach 12) Re: Orchestra Bows: A Survey by James Scott 13) Re: Birthday by ALEX ILES 14) Re: Birthday by "Keith Marr" 15) Re: Birthday by "The Millars" 16) Re: Birthday by DSlide13@aol.com 17) Re: Orchestra Bows: A Survey by Peter Collins From: Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 09:18:32 EST To: , Cc: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3651] Re: Quartet music for a memorial In a message dated 1/22/2005 5:59:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jeff@jeffalbert.com writes: I like the Premru, In Memoriam. Jeff Me too. I would also suggest ditching a player and doing Premru's Felicity. -W ............................................................ : An attachment to this post has been stripped by: : : plaintext.pl : : Original idea by Phillip Porch (ppp@theporch.com) : : Written by Stephen Modena, AB4EL (shimshon@theporch.com) : : Modifications by Mearl Danner, (jmdanner@samford.edu) : : All rights reserved. : ............................................................ From: Phil Burton Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 10:29:10 -0700 To: 'Trombone-L' Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3652] Birthday Today is the birthday of the legendary and greatest Jazz trombonist of all time, JJ Johnson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date: 1/21/2005 From: ALEX ILES Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 09:45:44 -0800 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3653] Orchestra Bows: A Survey Hi everyone, This is a question for all orchestral players and orchestra concert audience members alike... When the orchestras you see and play with take a group bow, do they... a. just stand straight up b. turn slightly if necessary to face the audience [the strings especially] c. make any other "bowing" gestures. d. do anything else I haven't already said. This came up at my rehearsal with the Long Beach Symphony last night. Apparently our orchestra exec. director attended the convention in Florida a while back and saw the New World Symphony members do a different kind of bow. He liked the way it looked as did several members of our orchestra committee. He wanted to institute a new bow for the orchestra, which on the surface sounds harmless enough, but those of you who play in orchestras know when it comes to things like this, NOTHING is easy!! There are several members or our orchestra, who don't like doing anything "different" or not what they think the "major" orchestras do. I am just trying to see what everyone else's experience is here. If you play in a professional orchestra, has this subject ever come up? If so, how was it handled? Thanks for any input! Best wishes, Alex Iles From: "prbrass@juno.com" Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 18:15:46 GMT To: Cc: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3654] Re: Birthday Based on recordings I heard some years ago, JJ Johnson's trombone sound for jazz was out of this world. Luis From: Bill Dinwiddie Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 12:18:59 -0600 To: List Trombone Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3655] JJ's Birthday Phil wrote: "Today is the birthday of the legendary and greatest Jazz trombonist of all time, JJ Johnson" Hey Phil, I'll drink to that!! May he rest in peace. Bill Dinwiddie billdin@comcast.net From: Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:46:25 EST To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3656] Re: Birthday In a message dated 1/22/2005 11:30:44 A.M. Central Standard Time, philroymt@bigsky.net writes: Today is the birthday of the legendary and greatest Jazz trombonist of all time, JJ Johnson Best of all time? You are kidding, right? ............................................................ : An attachment to this post has been stripped by: : : plaintext.pl : : Original idea by Phillip Porch (ppp@theporch.com) : : Written by Stephen Modena, AB4EL (shimshon@theporch.com) : : Modifications by Mearl Danner, (jmdanner@samford.edu) : : All rights reserved. : ............................................................ From: Jim Lee Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 12:50:38 -0800 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3657] Re: Birthday Gussie Boy: > Today is the birthday of the legendary and greatest Jazz > trombonist of all time, JJ Johnson > > Best of all time? You are kidding, right? After you, of course. Has Mr. Troll returned? ------------------ jimlee@cttsweb.com From: Jeff Albert Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:57:53 -0600 To: Cc: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3658] Re: Birthday Didn't we used to have a rule that you had to sign up with and use your real name on this list? That way when people would make posts like this one, that are pretty obviously intended to get the flame wars going, they couldn't do it under a cloud of anonymity. Just in case Gussieboy is 14 years old and doesn't know, J.J. Johnson is widely regarded as the best and definitely most influential jazz trombonist of all time. I think arguing about one "best" of whatever is sort of silly, but calling JJ the best is by no means a stretch. Jeff Albert Gussieboy@aol.com wrote: > >In a message dated 1/22/2005 11:30:44 A.M. Central Standard Time, >philroymt@bigsky.net writes: > >Today is the birthday of the legendary and greatest Jazz trombonist of all >time, JJ Johnson > > > >Best of all time? You are kidding, right? > >: An attachment to this post has been stripped by: : >: plaintext.pl : >: Original idea by Phillip Porch (ppp@theporch.com) : >: Written by Stephen Modena, AB4EL (shimshon@theporch.com) : >: Modifications by Mearl Danner, (jmdanner@samford.edu) : >: All rights reserved. : >............................................................ > > > -- Jeff Albert P.O. Box 8645 Mandeville, LA 70470 (504) 782-5835 www.jeffalbert.com jeff@jeffalbert.com From: Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:02:14 EST To: , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3659] Re: Birthday In a message dated 1/22/2005 2:51:13 P.M. Central Standard Time, jimlee@cttsweb.com writes: > Today is the birthday of the legendary and greatest Jazz > trombonist of all time, JJ Johnson> > Best of all time? You are kidding, right? After you, of course. Look, it is impossible to be the best of all time. There have been better and more interesting players and there will be more innovative players in the future and time has not ended yet. ............................................................ : An attachment to this post has been stripped by: : : plaintext.pl : : Original idea by Phillip Porch (ppp@theporch.com) : : Written by Stephen Modena, AB4EL (shimshon@theporch.com) : : Modifications by Mearl Danner, (jmdanner@samford.edu) : : All rights reserved. : ............................................................ From: Bill Dinwiddie Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:24:26 -0600 To: List Trombone Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3660] JJ's Birthday Gussieboy (whoever that is) said: "Look, it is impossible to be the best of all time. There have been better and more interesting players and there will be more innovative players in the future and time has not ended yet." Look Mr. G: you are obviously correct when you say there will be more innovative players in the future, after all, you are talking about an infinite span of time. JJ, however, came along at a time when NO ONE ELSE was playing modern jazz on the trombone. He figured out how to do it, he did it magnificently, and went on to inspire other players who will go on to inspire other players, etc, ad infinitum. There were other great players at that time (most of who came out of the dixieland or swing styles), but JJ gave the trombone a new voice, a new sound, and marvelous ideas which were highly innovative and unique to him. He was keeping up with the bebop masters of the saxophone and the trumpet...and almost impossible task. We could go on, ad infinitum, arguing about who was, or is, or will be, the greatest jazz player, but, in my opinion, no one should ever denigrate this man who was the first, so: Happy birthday, JJ, you beautiful cat, who opened my ears and gave me a lifelong challenge. Bill Dinwiddie billdin@comcast.net From: c mandernach Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:45:14 -0600 To: , List Trombone Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3661] Re: JJ's Birthday 1/22/05 With nothing better to do for a few minutes - - - - - It seems Gussieboy's maybe not so well thought-out remarks have hit a nerve with JJ fans, and I can't say I blame them - particularly "Best of all time ? You are kidding, right ?" And all in response to an innocent and honest birthday recognition message for (at least one of) the greatest jazz trombone player(s) of all time. I agree with a couple of comments and observations already made, including "it isn't much of a stretch to call JJ the greatest". Personnaly, I would rather not think in terms of "best" or "greatest", but if I HAD to identify one, it would likely be him - because of both significant advancement in level of technical skills (fast playing) AND musical advancement and innovation. And as Bill Dinwiddie well pointed out, there can't be much argument with JJ on either of those points. I would also add Music isn't an athletic contest (well, I don't think it should be) where some set of guidelines determine a winner, number of victories, titles won, etc., and everyone else is a loser. I run into this frequently with students who think mainly in terms of contests and ratings, as well as with other less-experienced players or listeners. I tell them, "look, I like the way this person plays, the way that person plays, the way another person plays, etc. , and they are all terrific players. And sure, I have favorites, but I prefer to not use the terms "best" or "greatest" - though I don't mean to be critical of the first writer for using "greatest" in this case. Gussieboy is almost certainly correct if what he means by "better" is continued advancement in technically playing the trombone - JJ, Jack Teagarden before him, Frank Rosolino, Carl Fontana, Bill Watrous, Conrad Herwig, to name a few, prove it has happened, and it will likely continue. But real innovators (including players on the list above), those whose innovations have been recognized as valuable and worthwhile over a period of time, have proven to be few and far between. A lot of very good players have built on those innovations, and even carried them forward, but will never be recognized as the one who "did it first". Can anyone deny JJ in that regard ? Of course we don't know what the future will bring. But I have always listened (and will continue to do so) for good players and innovative players. Without a doubt I have missed some along the way, and in the interest of my own education and enjoyment, I would be interested to know who you, Gussieboy, (if you are reading this) think those players "better" and more innovative than JJ are, were, or will be. Its not necessarily a challenge to your statement. I would sincerely be interested in hearing who they may be, and listening to what they have done to earn your assessment. Chuck Mandernach on 1/22/05 3:24 PM, Bill Dinwiddie at billdin@comcast.net wrote: > Gussieboy (whoever that is) said: > > "Look, it is impossible to be the best of all time. There have been better > and more interesting players and there will be more innovative players in > the > future and time has not ended yet." > > Look Mr. G: you are obviously correct when you say there will be more > innovative players in the future, after all, you are talking about an > infinite span of time. > JJ, however, came along at a time when NO ONE ELSE was playing modern jazz > on the trombone. He figured out how to do it, he did it magnificently, and > went on to inspire other players who will go on to inspire other players, > etc, ad infinitum. > > There were other great players at that time (most of who came out of the > dixieland or swing styles), but JJ gave the trombone a new voice, a new > sound, and marvelous ideas which were highly innovative and unique to him. > He was keeping up with the bebop masters of the saxophone and the > trumpet...and almost impossible task. > > We could go on, ad infinitum, arguing about who was, or is, or will be, the > greatest jazz player, but, in my opinion, no one should ever denigrate this > man who was the first, so: > > Happy birthday, JJ, you beautiful cat, who opened my ears and gave me a > lifelong challenge. > > Bill Dinwiddie > billdin@comcast.net > > > > > > From: James Scott Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:01:57 -0700 To: Cc: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3662] Re: Orchestra Bows: A Survey Hi Alex - We addressed the same issue here when we were coming back from our shutdown a couple of years ago. You're right, that these things are never easy, for some reason, when you get that many people together. In our case, the "bow" was addressed along with some other issues about how the stage looked. We added flowers in the front, some decorative material in the back of the stage and other similar touches. All of this was handled by a committee from the orchestra who took care of re-shaping all of the ascetics. The only part that has stayed is the bow, where we now have the orchestra members turn out more towards the audience to actually acknowledge the applause. The concerts that I saw of the NY Phil. last summer, they were doing the same (these things tend to make the rounds). Personally, I like the fact that we're making more eye contact with the audience during applause now. Also, we've tried to cut back on the talking to section mates and fussing with music during the bows as well, and I like that too. All of this stuff is small, but tends to make the audience feel more appreciated, and I'm all in favor of that. Hope this answers your question. Jim Scott Calgary Philharmonic ALEX ILES wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > This is a question for all orchestral players and orchestra concert > audience members alike... > > When the orchestras you see and play with take a group bow, do they... > > a. just stand straight up > b. turn slightly if necessary to face the audience [the strings > especially] > c. make any other "bowing" gestures. > d. do anything else I haven't already said. > > This came up at my rehearsal with the Long Beach Symphony last night. > Apparently our orchestra exec. director attended the convention in > Florida a while back and saw the New World Symphony members do a > different kind of bow. He liked the way it looked as did several > members of our orchestra committee. He wanted to institute a new bow > for the orchestra, which on the surface sounds harmless enough, but > those of you who play in orchestras know when it comes to things like > this, NOTHING is easy!! > > There are several members or our orchestra, who don't like doing > anything "different" or not what they think the "major" orchestras do. > I am just trying to see what everyone else's experience is here. > > If you play in a professional orchestra, has this subject ever come > up? If so, how was it handled? > > Thanks for any input! > > Best wishes, > > Alex Iles > From: ALEX ILES Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:03:02 -0800 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3663] Re: Birthday Hi all, This discussion reminds me of an incident when a JJ-bashing "troll" appeared on the JJ Johnson-list. Just as many listers began attacking this person and defending JJ, JJ himself actually entered into the heated exchange and defended the guy's right to be as big a jerk as he wanted. In fact, he LOVED the whole idea of someone criticizing him!!! To me, this incident illustrated JJ's greatness and nobility as a person might have even exceeded his immense talents as a musician. Ask anyone who knew him well and that is what you hear. I agree wholeheartedly with Chuck M... As each of us has different definitions of greatness and bring our own individual tastes to the table, it is a hopeless task to truly argue who is better at what in music. Last time I checked, there have never been judge's scores posted anywhere at the Village Vanguard, Blues Alley or Ronnie Scott's. But I digress... Personally, the moment I hear Jack T., JJ, Rosolino,Harris, Brown, Dorsey, Green, Fontana, Bequet, Vernon,Ulyate, Nanton, Alessi, Roberts, Crook, Lindberg, Nash, etc, etc, I am tempted to label EACH of them as "the greatest". Time and history will probably bear any of our individual arguments out. So far, JJ's contributions and importance to the trombone and the greater music worlds are hard to argu. Name just about any other bone player living or dead, you will get an argument, but with JJ's name, you are likely to get the LEAST disagreement. But there will always be room for disagreement and healthy debate. ...just as JJ would have wanted it. Be well and Happy B-day, J!! Alex ===================== On Jan 22, 2005, at 1:02 PM, Gussieboy@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 1/22/2005 2:51:13 P.M. Central Standard Time, > jimlee@cttsweb.com writes: > >> Today is the birthday of the legendary and greatest Jazz >> trombonist of all time, JJ Johnson> >> Best of all time? You are kidding, right? > After you, of course. > > > > Look, it is impossible to be the best of all time. There have been > better > and more interesting players and there will be more innovative players > in the > future and time has not ended yet. > > : An attachment to this post has been stripped by: : > : plaintext.pl : > : Original idea by Phillip Porch (ppp@theporch.com) : > : Written by Stephen Modena, AB4EL (shimshon@theporch.com) : > : Modifications by Mearl Danner, (jmdanner@samford.edu) : > : All rights reserved. : > ............................................................ From: Keith Marr Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 00:34:01 -0000 To: Trombone-L Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3664] Re: Birthday Just to be irrelevant, pedantic and stoutly British: It is impossible for anything to be "the best of all time" simply because "all time" includes the future! So how would anyone know? It is however perfectly acceptable to say that JJ was "one of the best of all time" as this implies an accumulative list. There now, wasn't that interesting . . . . . zzzzzzzzzzzzzz Keith in Bb/F/D -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date: 21/01/2005 From: The Millars Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:54:51 -0800 To: , Trombone-L Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3665] Re: Birthday One year at the Macy's Parade, Kenny G was on a float and I heard him being introduced as "the greatest instrumentalist of all time". I guess we can't compete with that..................... ============================================= Michael W. Millar, D.M.A. Valencia, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Marr" To: "Trombone-L" Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 4:34 PM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3664] Re: Birthday > Just to be irrelevant, pedantic and stoutly British: It is impossible for > anything to be "the best of all time" simply because "all time" includes > the > future! So how would anyone know? > > It is however perfectly acceptable to say that JJ was "one of the best of > all time" as this implies an accumulative list. > > There now, wasn't that interesting . . . . . zzzzzzzzzzzzzz > > Keith in Bb/F/D > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.302 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date: 21/01/2005 > > From: Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 22:15:11 -0500 To: , Trombone-L Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3666] Re: Birthday I think it's obvious that Gussieboy is the best of all time, or has an agenda about who is. I can only assume that Gussieboy is not entertained by music, but rather by baiting intangible arguments for no productive purpose. Go back to masturbating in front of your moniter Gussieboy....or masturbate with your horn while you play a bunch of notes that no one has any interest in hearing. I'm disappointed in myself for wasting a second on this mess, but now I can't take it back. dg From: Peter Collins Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 22:47:16 -0500 To: Cc: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3667] Re: Orchestra Bows: A Survey Hi Alex and list, I haven't contributed in some time but this one caught my eye. I play mainly in two orchestras and their policies are pretty similar. They do face the audience during the bows, like you say, especially the string players. In Hamilton, our director is constantly reminding us to smile during the bows. A lot of people don't like it and find his approach annoying. But, hey, he's the director so if he wants us to smile than we can smile. How hard is that to do? I usually do my part by not only smiling but making some wisecrack at the end of the piece to get my section mates smiling at least for some reason. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. Good luck with that. I know exactly how it is when somebody wants to change a big group of people; like herding cats. Peter Collins Bass Trombone Hamilton Philharmonic Orchestra On 22-Jan-05, at 12:45 PM, ALEX ILES wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > This is a question for all orchestral players and orchestra concert > audience members alike... > > When the orchestras you see and play with take a group bow, do they... > > a. just stand straight up > b. turn slightly if necessary to face the audience [the strings > especially] > c. make any other "bowing" gestures. > d. do anything else I haven't already said. > > This came up at my rehearsal with the Long Beach Symphony last night. > Apparently our orchestra exec. director attended the convention in > Florida a while back and saw the New World Symphony members do a > different kind of bow. He liked the way it looked as did several > members of our orchestra committee. He wanted to institute a new bow > for the orchestra, which on the surface sounds harmless enough, but > those of you who play in orchestras know when it comes to things like > this, NOTHING is easy!! > > There are several members or our orchestra, who don't like doing > anything "different" or not what they think the "major" orchestras do. > I am just trying to see what everyone else's experience is here. > > If you play in a professional orchestra, has this subject ever come > up? If so, how was it handled? > > Thanks for any input! > > Best wishes, > > Alex Iles >