Subject: TROMBONE-L digest 282 Date: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 12:01 AM From: Multiple recipients of list To: Multiple recipients of list TROMBONE-L Digest 282 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) shameless plug - CTQ recital by Tom Stark 2) Re: Valve alignment (was: Non-responding Baritone low register) by "Richardson, Timothy Mr. DAC 417 BSB DPW - ERMD" 3) Re: shameless plug - CTQ recital by "prbrass@juno.com" 4) leaving the list by Mike Mathews 5) RE: leaving the list by "Jim Lee" 6) RE: leaving the list by "Erik Tkal" 7) Re: Valve alignment (was: Non-responding Baritone low register) by Raymond Horton 8) double quintet ww/bw by BITEensemble@aol.com 9) Re: double quintet ww/bw by ALEX ILES 10) Re: double quintet ww/bw by Harlan Feinstein 11) Re: double quintet ww/bw by Raymond Horton 12) Re: double quintet ww/bw by "Barry J. Bocaner" From: Tom Stark Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:57:40 -0800 (PST) To: Trombone Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3613] shameless plug - CTQ recital I just wanted to extend an invitation to anyone in the Northern Illinois region to come to a recital by the Chicago Trombone Quartet. It will be held in the Recital Hall in the School of Music Building of Northern Illinois University in DeKalb, IL at 8 pm on January 25. Please come and say hello and/or check out our website: www.chicagotrombonequartet.com Thank you very much, Tom Stark ............................................................ : An attachment to this post has been stripped by: : : plaintext.pl : : Original idea by Phillip Porch (ppp@theporch.com) : : Written by Stephen Modena, AB4EL (shimshon@theporch.com) : : Modifications by Mearl Danner, (jmdanner@samford.edu) : : All rights reserved. : ............................................................ From: "Richardson, Timothy Mr. DAC 417 BSB DPW - ERMD" Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:09:42 +0100 To: Eric Landrieu , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3614] Re: Valve alignment (was: Non-responding Baritone low register) I don't pretend to know why on any acoustics physics related level. I would point out that the baritone is conical enough to have a different partial series down low. Specifically, the fundamental (pedal tone) actually sounds, as opposed to being essentially created by the ear from the upper partials on the trombone. Also, the bell tubing is conical as opposed to flaring, which means that the reflection points are likely to be a bit more spread for the various frequencies, resulting in that low frequency reflecting earlier in the bell than it might in the trombone. But without math and numbers, it's all blowing in the wind. Then of course there is the infamous Eb partial series, present on some baritones and not on others for reasons not explained. However. As far as the problem goes. The other suggestions are all possible but this sounds like a classic leak scenario. If the horn is a design that works, so the problem is with only this particular instrument, the very first thing I would do is check for a leak somewhere. The next thing I would do is check for a sloppy fit of the valves within the casings. I don't play much baritone/euph but have had some discussions with players in brass bands. They say there seems to be an inverse relationship between tone and valve action. The tighter the clearance, the better the tone, and the worse the valves work. It is not uncommon for a well intentioned but ignorant brass tech to attempt to repair a valve with abrasives, and get it to work pretty well but leak. One way to check this might be to use a very heavy valve oil for a test. The valves might stick but you might seal enough of the air leaks to be able to tell if that's your problem. Dunno if this really works, I haven't tried it, but it works on cars. -----Original Message----- From: Eric Landrieu [mailto:eland3@comcast.net] Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 23:14 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3608] Re: Valve alignment (was: Non-responding Baritone low register) This is just a stab in the dark on why, but it makes sense to me (then again, I've got an Engineering degree...). I doubt I'm explaining it very well (somebody who can make sense of this, feel free to translate it into English): One reason that the low register may be more affected for a misaligned valve may be the length of the waves at the register. The horn is essentially a resonator that amplifies the waves produced by your blowing. The changing of valves (or moving slide for the trombone) is just changing the length of tube used. Longer tube, lower sound. The tube will amplify any of the harmonics of the tube length. The higher the register in which you blow, the more "waves" along the tube (using the ends as nodes). Think of it as being able to fit more waves on the length, because each wave is smaller. Now how does this make the low end worse? If you have the misaligned valve, it will impede somewhat (but not completely) the ability to resonate at the spot. At the low end, you are impinging on the only (or one of very few) waves resonating in the tubing. As you get to the higher registers of the horn, you have many more waves, and the misaligned valve is only really affecting one or two of them, while the rest still resonate fairly properly. Thus, they sound much less distorted. Okay, you can all wake up now. ;) Eric On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:58:11 +0300, eliezer aharoni wrote: >In my former post I described a problem with a baritone (central European >firm) which it's > the low register from low G down is not responding. The sound is stuffy >and hard to produce, and pitch is very sharp on these notes, and asked if >anything can be done repairwise. > >Most responses (many thanks to all responders!!!) suggested that it >indicates that the valves >are missaligned. One gentlmen ( Mr. Beldon Wade) suggested it there could >be a mix up in pistons/valves >that are supposed to be in the proper cylinders and could be switched or a >wrong one inserted. (had'nt time yet to experiment with valve changes). >Other suggestion was that there is a problem with placement of the leadpipe. > >Can anybody explain the accustic phenomena how the other registers sound >pretty good and only >the low register gets dammaged? >Can anybody estimate (since low G is fingered #1+2 or #3, both sound bad >and from there down) >if it indicate WHICH valve are missaligned? > >As for the leadpipe - can anybody be more specific as to what the exact >trouble >is and how to solve it? > >Many thanks, and its great example for the "raison d'etre" of the list, >enabling its members to benefit from each one's experiences. > >Eliezer Aharoni >Bass Trombonist, Jerusalem Symphony Orchestra >Author: New Method for the Modern Bass Trombone >Avilable from Hickey's (USA) Warwick, MusT (England) >POB 4025, Jerusalem ISRAEL 91040 >Phone ++972 2 5341333 > >Please avoid sending documents as attachments - we use a Macintosh computer >and in some cases can not convert them. > From: "prbrass@juno.com" Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:23:21 GMT To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3615] Re: shameless plug - CTQ recital I wish I could be there. Does CTQ have any recordings? Luis From: Mike Mathews Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:17:03 -0600 (CST) To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3616] leaving the list I need to get off of the Trombone List for a rew weeks. How can I do it? Thanks, Mike Mathews From: Jim Lee Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:17:49 -0800 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3617] RE: leaving the list Mike Matthews asks: > I need to get off of the Trombone List for a rew weeks. How > can I do it? You can't. Sorry. ------------------ jimlee@cttsweb.com From: Erik Tkal Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:22:06 -0500 To: , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3618] RE: leaving the list *rolls eyes* That's not a very useful answer... Try http://www.trombone.org/trombone-l/ Erik Tkal Jim Lee wrote: > > Mike Matthews asks: > > > I need to get off of the Trombone List for a rew weeks. How > > can I do it? > > You can't. Sorry. > > ------------------ > jimlee@cttsweb.com > From: Raymond Horton Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:24:08 -0500 To: Cc: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3619] Re: Valve alignment (was: Non-responding Baritone low register) Tim, you obviously know much more about the science of the overtone series and how it relates to the physical instrument than do I. Very interesting. One point - If you mean by "the infamous Eb partial series" you are talking about what some call the "falset notes" below the first overtone, by which most Bbb tubas will have an open low Eb above the pedal Bb, I find that just about every euphonium I have tried will settle that falset note on a open D rather than an Eb. Also, on the practical side of things, I will concur that any construction, alignment, or leakage problems on a euphonium will generally cause more of a problem in the lower register. Raymond Horton, Bass Trombonist and Euphoniumist, Louisville Orchestra Richardson, Timothy Mr. DAC 417 BSB DPW - ERMD wrote: >I don't pretend to know why on any acoustics physics related level. > >I would point out that the baritone is conical enough to have a different >partial series down low. Specifically, the fundamental (pedal tone) >actually sounds, as opposed to being essentially created by the ear from the >upper partials on the trombone. Also, the bell tubing is conical as opposed >to flaring, which means that the reflection points are likely to be a bit >more spread for the various frequencies, resulting in that low frequency >reflecting earlier in the bell than it might in the trombone. But without >math and numbers, it's all blowing in the wind. Then of course there is the >infamous Eb partial series, present on some baritones and not on others for >reasons not explained. > >However. As far as the problem goes. > >The other suggestions are all possible but this sounds like a classic leak >scenario. If the horn is a design that works, so the problem is with only >this particular instrument, the very first thing I would do is check for a >leak somewhere. The next thing I would do is check for a sloppy fit of the >valves within the casings. I don't play much baritone/euph but have had >some discussions with players in brass bands. They say there seems to be an >inverse relationship between tone and valve action. The tighter the >clearance, the better the tone, and the worse the valves work. It is not >uncommon for a well intentioned but ignorant brass tech to attempt to repair >a valve with abrasives, and get it to work pretty well but leak. One way to >check this might be to use a very heavy valve oil for a test. The valves >might stick but you might seal enough of the air leaks to be able to tell if >that's your problem. Dunno if this really works, I haven't tried it, but it >works on cars. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Eric Landrieu [mailto:eland3@comcast.net] >Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 23:14 >To: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu >Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3608] Re: Valve alignment (was: Non-responding >Baritone low register) > > >This is just a stab in the dark on why, but it makes sense to me (then >again, I've got an Engineering degree...). I doubt I'm explaining it >very well (somebody who can make sense of this, feel free to translate it >into English): >One reason that the low register may be more affected for a misaligned valve >may be the length of the waves at the register. The horn >is essentially a resonator that amplifies the waves produced by your >blowing. The changing of valves (or moving slide for the >trombone) is just changing the length of tube used. Longer tube, lower >sound. The tube will amplify any of the harmonics of the tube >length. >The higher the register in which you blow, the more "waves" along the tube >(using the ends as nodes). Think of it as being able to fit >more waves on the length, because each wave is smaller. >Now how does this make the low end worse? If you have the misaligned valve, >it will impede somewhat (but not completely) the >ability to resonate at the spot. At the low end, you are impinging on the >only (or one of very few) waves resonating in the tubing. As >you get to the higher registers of the horn, you have many more waves, and >the misaligned valve is only really affecting one or two of >them, while the rest still resonate fairly properly. Thus, they sound much >less distorted. >Okay, you can all wake up now. ;) > >Eric > >On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:58:11 +0300, eliezer aharoni wrote: > > > >>In my former post I described a problem with a baritone (central European >>firm) which it's >>the low register from low G down is not responding. The sound is stuffy >>and hard to produce, and pitch is very sharp on these notes, and asked if >>anything can be done repairwise. >> >>Most responses (many thanks to all responders!!!) suggested that it >>indicates that the valves >>are missaligned. One gentlmen ( Mr. Beldon Wade) suggested it there could >>be a mix up in pistons/valves >>that are supposed to be in the proper cylinders and could be switched or a >>wrong one inserted. (had'nt time yet to experiment with valve changes). >>Other suggestion was that there is a problem with placement of the >> >> >leadpipe. > > >>Can anybody explain the accustic phenomena how the other registers sound >>pretty good and only >>the low register gets dammaged? >>Can anybody estimate (since low G is fingered #1+2 or #3, both sound bad >>and from there down) >>if it indicate WHICH valve are missaligned? >> >>As for the leadpipe - can anybody be more specific as to what the exact >>trouble >>is and how to solve it? >> >>Many thanks, and its great example for the "raison d'etre" of the list, >>enabling its members to benefit from each one's experiences. >> >>Eliezer Aharoni >>Bass Trombonist, Jerusalem Symphony Orchestra >>Author: New Method for the Modern Bass Trombone >>Avilable from Hickey's (USA) Warwick, MusT (England) >>POB 4025, Jerusalem ISRAEL 91040 >>Phone ++972 2 5341333 >> >>Please avoid sending documents as attachments - we use a Macintosh computer >>and in some cases can not convert them. >> >> >> > > > > From: Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:03:49 EST To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3620] double quintet ww/bw Does anyone know of any double quintets (Brass and Wind) worth playing? Regards, Wes ............................................................ : An attachment to this post has been stripped by: : : plaintext.pl : : Original idea by Phillip Porch (ppp@theporch.com) : : Written by Stephen Modena, AB4EL (shimshon@theporch.com) : : Modifications by Mearl Danner, (jmdanner@samford.edu) : : All rights reserved. : ............................................................ From: ALEX ILES Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:29:19 -0800 To: Cc: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3621] Re: double quintet ww/bw Hi Wes, Composer/Bassoonist Charles Fernandez has written a light-hearted theater-style piece for double quintets. The ww's represent a group of "classical" characters and the brass play a group of "jazz" characters. It is a nice crowd pleaser and a fun one to put together. You could even consider using costumes and experiment with lighting!! Another idea... Maybe you could try re-arranging one of Gabrieli's larger scale "Canzonas" [for double brass choir] for your double quintet instrumentation. Charles' email is...TroneC@aol.com. [he might have even written some other pieces for this instrumentation more recently too] Tell him "hi" from me! Best wishes, Alex Iles ============================== On Jan 18, 2005, at 3:03 PM, BITEensemble@aol.com wrote: > Does anyone know of any double quintets (Brass and Wind) worth > playing? > > Regards, > > Wes > > : An attachment to this post has been stripped by: : > : plaintext.pl : > : Original idea by Phillip Porch (ppp@theporch.com) : > : Written by Stephen Modena, AB4EL (shimshon@theporch.com) : > : Modifications by Mearl Danner, (jmdanner@samford.edu) : > : All rights reserved. : > ............................................................ From: Harlan Feinstein Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:18:59 -0800 To: Cc: , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3622] Re: double quintet ww/bw Hey Wes, I think there's a PDQ Bach thing as well, don't know if it's exactly that instrumentation but you could check. I seem to remember it being called "Echo Sonata For Two Unfriendly Groups of Instruments." Has a similar theme as the one Alex describes, where the ww's are the serious folks and the the brass the goofballs. --Harlan From: Raymond Horton Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:03:05 -0500 To: Cc: , , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3623] Re: double quintet ww/bw I believe I recall hearing a nice double quintet by Robert Nagel. Raymond Horton Harlan Feinstein wrote: >Hey Wes, I think there's a PDQ Bach thing as well, don't know if it's exactly >that instrumentation but you could check. I seem to remember it being called >"Echo Sonata For Two Unfriendly Groups of Instruments." Has a similar theme >as the one Alex describes, where the ww's are the serious folks and the the >brass the goofballs. > >--Harlan > > > > From: "Barry J. Bocaner" Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:05:44 -0500 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3624] Re: double quintet ww/bw That's for two trios -- flute/oboe/bassoon / trumpet/horn/trombone Barry > Hey Wes, I think there's a PDQ Bach thing as well, don't know if it's exactly > that instrumentation but you could check. I seem to remember it being called > "Echo Sonata For Two Unfriendly Groups of Instruments." Has a similar theme > as the one Alex describes, where the ww's are the serious folks and the the > brass the goofballs. > --Harlan >