Subject: TROMBONE-L digest 269 Date: Thursday, January 6, 2005 12:01 AM From: Multiple recipients of list To: Multiple recipients of list TROMBONE-L Digest 269 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: sound engineers, how to murder - kinda a lengthy diatribe but, heck! by "Chris Tune" 2) Japan? by Earl Needham 3) Re: sound engineers, how to murder - kinda a lengthy diatribe but, heck! by Craig Parmerlee 4) Memorable Melody by Earl Needham 5) Re: fake king? =?ISO-8859-1?B?oHJlYWwga2luZz8goHdpbGxpZSBjb2xvbj8=?= by DSlide13@aol.com 6) Re: sound engineers, how to murder - kinda a lengthy diatribe but, heck! by "Barry Green" 7) Re: fake king? =?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0real_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?king=3F_=A0willie_colon=3F?= by Earl Needham 8) Fw: Pending Trombone Specific Legislation by "Fred Hudson" 9) Re: sound engineers, how to murder - kinda a lengthy diatribe but, heck! by "Chris Tune" 10) RE: Memorable Melody by "John Burton" 11) RE: Memorable Melody by "Adrian Drover" 12) RE: Memorable Melody by Earl Needham 13) Re: sound engineers, how to murder - kinda a lengthy diatribe but, heck! by "Delbert Pakiser" 14) Re: sound engineers, how to murder - kinda a lengthy diatribe but, heck! by "Barry Green" 15) RE: Memorable Melody by "John Burton" 16) RE: Memorable Melody by "John Burton" 17) Re: Bach bass on eBay by Gabriel Langfur 18) Re: sound engineers, how to murder - kinda a lengthy diatribe but, heck! by Craig Parmerlee 19) Re: sound engineers, how to murder - kinda a lengthy diatribe but, heck! by "Chris Tune" 20) Re: sound engineers, how to murder - kinda a lengthy diatr by "Daniel Pliskin" 21) RE: Memorable Melody by "Chris Tune" 22) RE: Memorable Melody by Earl Needham 23) Re: sound engineers, how to murder - kinda a lengthy diatribe but, heck! by Craig Parmerlee 24) RE: Memorable Melody by Craig Parmerlee 25) Online Trombone Journal Offline January 5-7, 2005 by Chris Waage 26) FW: Otto Henry by Chris Waage 27) Re: Japan? by Mitsuru SUGISAKI 28) RE: Memorable Melody by Raymond Horton 29) RE: Memorable Melody by Jeff Albert 30) RE: Memorable Melody by "Chris Tune" 31) RE: Memorable Melody by "Chris Tune" 32) RE: Memorable Melody by "Chris Tune" 33) Re: sound engineers, how to murder - kinda a lengthy diatribe but, heck! by "Chris Tune" From: Chris Tune Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 22:16:33 -0800 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3445] Re: sound engineers, how to murder - kinda a lengthy diatribe but, heck! If you think you are mad at sound engineers BEFORE reading this. . .well. . .you may very well be VERY angry after reading this. You will definitely be angry with ME if you don't like long messages. If that's you. . .don't read this. . . I was reading my copy of "Electronic Musician" when I stumbled upon this article. The text was so oddly unsettling that I opened up an interesting conversation with my son, Adam, about performing and about the ethics of selling a recording or a performance as "your own" when it has been SUBSTANTIALLY made out of bits and pieces of various parts of substandard "takes" . . . .apparently something akin to this is so common it already has a name: "Comping the vocal". . . .this article actually mentions purposely using "funky stuff" for artistic purposes. . .I'm more concerned with the "big picture". Definitions: "Comping the Vocal"-cutting up vocals and reassembling for a final take. Short for "composing the vocal"? Next you fix the less-than-perfect intonation by "Tuning the vocal". . . . Doubtlessly, you will see why I got kinda weirded out, when you read this article [my concern here is that we may have opened "Pandora's Box" here with powerful digital editing]: ARTICLE: Vocal Editing Techniques Comping the lead vocal--editing together the best parts of multiple vocal tracks into one master take--frequently requires more time than any other edit. Often, the goal in creating a vocal comp is to obtain the most emotive performance possible--to capture the appropriate emotion that the artist intends for the song. That idea must be kept in mind while editing. Think of the song first and choose performances that are best for the song. The best vocal performances are not always technically perfect. There might be slight pitch problems, mispronunciations, mic-level issues, or even noise and distortion on the track. Yet, as a whole, the performance is perfect in delivering the emotion of the song. So, don't get caught up in finding the best technical performance by sacrificing the emotion in the editing process. If you used a take sheet, follow the notes you made on the take sheets to steer your vocal edits. Without the take sheets or other comments on your recorded tracks, you'll probably need to listen to each take and make notes now during the editing process. This makes the editing process much more time-consuming. For vocal tracks, I analyze the delivery of every phrase, word and syllable. Although you probably didn't get that detailed when recording the vocal tracks, it's good to get that detailed now. Write down additional notes on the take sheet or lyric sheet about edit points. Pick and choose each part of the vocal performance carefully when creating your master comp. Professional producers go to this level of detail. You should, too. Tuning Vocal Tracks After you've comped your vocal tracks, it's common to tune then using an auto-tuning program. These programs can automatically tune the track for you, but often result in decent, yet imperfect tuning performances. I recommend taking control of the tuning process and tuning the vocal track manually. To perfect the tuning of your vocal track, you should analyze and tune each vocal phrase separately. The program enables you to see the pitches of each vocal note plotted against the notes in the song's key (the scale). You can then manually alter the pitch of each note by drawing new pitch lines and curves. Finally, you can re-record each newly tuned vocal phrase onto a new track, eventually making a completely tuned vocal track. Some artists make it a point NOT to use auto-tuning. This is noteworthy. If the singer on your project can sing totally in tune (or in tune enough), don't bother with auto-tuning and leave the raw performances. Often, the "realness" of these raw performances creates a better overall feel on the recording than processed vocals. Aligning Melodies and Harmonies After comping the lead vocal track, it's a good idea to tighten up the rhythms of the harmony-vocal tracks to match the lead vocals. The point is to get the start and end point of each harmony note tightly aligned with the lead vocal. If the harmony note is too long, shorten it by cutting some of the middle of the note out, and creating crossfades between the remaining regions (see Fig. 1) You may need to use equal power crossfades here, and the crossfades may have to be a little longer than usual to make this sound natural. If the harmony note is too short, then you should copy a part of the middle of the harmony note, and paste it into the middle of the note to make it longer. Then apply crossfades to smooth it out (see Fig. 2). In this case, too, you may need to use equal power crossfades, and the crossfades may have to be a little longer than usual to make this sound natural. Also, trim the starts and ends of the notes so that they are rhythmically tight. END ARTICLE I was tempted to add in my "thoughts" while reading this article, just to make this funny. But, ultimately, this is not funny. The software has legitimate uses, of course, and there are plenty of artists who really CAN sing, or play trombone (MTC), and HECK, I've even taken a glitch or two out of a tiny spot in an otherwise great jazz trombone solo I recorded at home. . .I think what makes me so unsettled, is the way the author assumes that the use of this kind of digital horsepower is just the everyday ordinary course of events. That, somehow, we won't get that "magic take" with just a little more work. . .and besides, we may NEVER get that magic, so heck. . .just open up the Antares program and auto tune it and snip the daylights out of it and no one will ever be aware of all the editing. It may not be the way the Beatles did it. . .but those were days so long ago that it almost seems quaint. I'm hoping there eventually must be some sort of NEW movement afoot because of the tremendous amount of artificial editing that can be done. This should be called the DIGITAL EDITING ETHICS MOVEMENT. It's first tenet should be: IF YOU CAN'T PERFORM "CLOSE" TO THE EDITED LEVEL THEN DON"T PRETEND. . . DON"T "MILLI VANILLI" US! Some are going to argue that Milli Vanilli was different. At least one of them couldn't sing very much at all and had all his vocals done by a studio singer. . .but, IS THIS REALLY VERY DIFFERENT? How good a singer should you be to record your own album? Why not just fix most every part of the vocal? I'm sure most vocals have a touch here and there. . .what's to stop EXTENSIVE artificial "comping the vocal". When will we make a machine that comps the vocal in "real time". Hey maybe in the future you can get a machine with a "Sinatra" and "Elvis" and "Bing Crosby" setting on it. . .and you sing your out of tune goofy voice into it and "voila", you sound like ole' Blue Eyes. Also, you can apply this ethics problem to video too, since soon, we will see artificial actors and algorhythms for their behavior. You could see that you could use these creative tools to create some pretty bizarre, but apparently REAL-LOOKING stuff. . .but IS IT RIGHT TO DO THIS? [There is a really good movie with Sean Connery called Rising Sun (1993) which shows a digital reconstruction of a video used to frame someone for a murder. . .small ethics prob] The implications of this article is that it's really no problem to take a lack luster set of vocal takes and through the magic of digital editing make an excellent take. And then you could simply provide "guide tracks" to your vocalist to use when he/she gets on SNL. . . Chris Tune From: Earl Needham Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 23:23:18 -0700 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3446] Japan? Anybody on this list in Japan? I need a favor. Thanks, Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB, Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk http://kd5xb-2.no-ip.info From: Craig Parmerlee Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 08:46:28 -0500 To: Chris Tune Cc: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3447] Re: sound engineers, how to murder - kinda a lengthy diatribe but, heck! I have some mixed emotions about that. First, it isn't new. Recording engineers have been splicing and dicing forever. It is just easier to do digitally, so more of that is going on today. But in the old days, it wasn't uncommon to record 3 or 4 vocal tracks and pick and choose during the final edit. Regarding tightening up the BG vocals, this was also done in the old days. If a release wasn't tight, it was no biggie to punch in some silence at the right point on the tape. Using digital, you can do this quicker and with less chance of ruining several hours of hard session work. Intonation is probably the only really new element, and personally I'm glad for that. Just go back a listen to some of that motown stuff. The pitch was often horrendously flat. Not soulful. Not stylistic. Just plain foul. In today's pre-fabricated, panel-tested, assembly line star factory, musical talent isn't necessarily high on the priorities list. If we had to listen to the music before all the digital editing, we might really appreciate the corrections being done. But in the end, very little of pop music today amounts to anything anyway. I'm not sure there is one memorable melody in the last 15 years. If they are going to churn out a bunch of homogeneous crap, I'm thankful they are at least taking the time to make it as inoffensive as possible. My 2 cents, Craig Chris Tune wrote: > Definitions: > "Comping the Vocal"-cutting up vocals and reassembling for a final > take. Short for "composing the vocal"? > > Next you fix the less-than-perfect intonation by "Tuning the vocal". . > . . > > Doubtlessly, you will see why I got kinda weirded out, when you read > this article [my concern here is that we may have opened "Pandora's > Box" here with powerful digital editing]: > From: Earl Needham Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 07:36:12 -0700 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3448] Memorable Melody At 06:46 AM 1/5/2005, Craig Parmerlee wrote: >I'm not sure there is one memorable melody in the last 15 years. Planet Texas by Kenny Rogers. Thanks y'all... Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB, Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk http://kd5xb-2.no-ip.info From: Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 09:37:41 -0500 To: , Trombone-L Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3449] Re: fake king? Êreal king? Êwillie colon? I played this 4b last night, and the bell transplant idea seems very likely. After looking over the horn, I believe it's a King, but it isn't an HN White. The engraving was not original. Perhaps, the bell got crushed and was repaired...or it was simply relaquered and custom engraved. The good news for my student is that the horn plays very well. I'm not sure what he spent, but he should be happy with the horn. DG >>>The 4B was called "Sonorous" at least through the 1970's. I had a 4B from 1976, and my friend has one from 1974. Both were called "Sonorous". Incidentally, I had a 5B from the same period and it was called "Symphony". The inscription presented makes me wonder if this horn had a bell transplant, and the engraver didn't know (or couldn't read) what was there originally. Regardless, if it plays well, it's good. But what money is there in forging a King 4B? Bruce Guttman Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra Hollis Town Band From: Barry Green Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 08:40:26 -0600 To: Chris Tune , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3450] Re: sound engineers, how to murder - kinda a lengthy diatribe but, heck! This is nothing new, it's been going on for years. Our "music" is now more about marketing than music. There is good music available, just not what's mass marketed and spoon fed to the general public and it's not just in music either. Barry Green Nashville From: Earl Needham Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 07:42:16 -0700 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3451] Re: fake king? Êreal king? Êwillie colon? At 07:37 AM 1/5/2005, DSlide13@aol.com wrote: >I played this 4b last night, and the bell transplant idea seems very >likely. After looking over the horn, I believe it's a King, but it isn't >an HN White. The engraving was not original. Perhaps, the bell got >crushed and was repaired...or it was simply relaquered and custom >engraved. The good news for my student is that the horn plays very >well. I'm not sure what he spent, but he should be happy with the horn. > >DG Speaking of King, those initials stand for "Duo Gravis", right? Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB, Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk http://kd5xb-2.no-ip.info From: Fred Hudson Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:08:45 -0600 To: Cc: Jason Anders , "Garry S." Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3452] Fw: Pending Trombone Specific Legislation I passed this distressing news on to my section mates and this response from one of them is worthy of forwarding to the list - WRITE YOUR CONGRESSPERSON! Fred H ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anders, Jason" To: "'Fred Hudson'" ; > I think, if we're going to live in a nation that condones partial-brass > abortions, that we should encourage the terminations of all potential > saxophones before they are delivered to their players. > > It's obvious even to the most casual observer that they are some malformed > other twin of an actual brass instrument. I live for the day when we will > no longer be haunted by their distorted cries and moans as they live out > their tormenting, er, um, tormented existence. > > Even so, Lord Sousa, come quickly. > > Posaunen in requiem, > > Jason > > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Hudson [mailto:fmhudson@arkansas.net] > Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 6:09 PM > To: Jason Anders; Garry S. > Subject: Fw: [TROMBONE-L:3440] Pending Trombone Specific Legislation > > I'll give up my trombone when they pry it from my cold dead fingers!! > > Original Message ----- > From: "Charles De Paolo" > To: "Trombone List" > Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 9:22 AM > Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3440] Pending Trombone Specific Legislation > > > > Subject: Fw: Pending Trombone Legislation > > WASHINGTON, D.C. - Each year thousands are people are killed, maimed or > annoyed by trombones. The statistics of head, neck and even shoulder > injuries sustained by reed players, french horn and string sections seated > within reach of the deadly seventh position are truly shocking...not to > mention forced early retirement due to ever-increasing hearing problems > reported by classical musicians of all types who are forced to play the > music of Wagner, Mahler and Brahms, as well as the hundreds of alumni of the > Herman, Ferguson and Kenton bands and OKOM devotees of Kid Ory, Jack > Teagarden, Abe Lincoln Jim Robinson and Lee Gifford. > > There is current legislation pending in Congress to restrict the sale of > trombones and equip them with child-safety devices. The influential trombone > lobby is, of course, opposed to this. There have even been several > proposals for requiring a so-called "trigger lock" on all bass trombones! > Every year there are reports of hundreds of innocent children, attracted by > the shiny brass and smooth, seductive curves of an unattended instrument on > a stand in the corner of a room or in an unlocked case who are traumatized > for life by the attempts of a playmate to get a sound out of it, or who may > suffer a collapsed lung or the effects of hyperventilation by trying the > same effort themselves! The owner's feeble "I didn't know the slide was > unlocked" is no excuse! Trombones should be stored out of reach of children. > > Efforts to enact a mandatory 10-day waiting period to purchase a > trombone - which would simply allow a reasonable period of time for law > enforcement officials to cross-check the purchaser's name against an > International list of registered trombone offenders and Slide-O-Mix addicts, > have been repeatedly thwarted by the powerful Conn-Selmer-Yamaha (CSY) > lobby. Law enforcement officials are particularly alarmed over the increase > in crimes involving use of the "sawed-off" trombone or "sackbut." > Legislation is also pending in several progressive states, including New > York and California, to make carrying a concealed alto trombone a Class A > felony! > > Some Governors feel that there are sufficient laws already on the books > that simply need stricter enforcement - such as the 1932 nation-wide ban of > screw-on bells, the indiscriminate use of Pond's Cold Cream or KY Jelly and > unsupervised emptying of spit valves on public property. Filthy unsanitary > habit which wil;l help spread the flu this year. One popular response to the > spread of delinquent behavior is the imposition of mandatory longer > sentences for those using a trombone while committing a crime ("Use a > trombone - Go to jail"). Surveillance video tapes have proven especially > effective in identifying violators of this statute because career criminals > have often tried to avoid convictions by having their lawyers insist that > what eye-witnesses reported as a trombone was really only an AK-47 or other > legal assaul weapon. Strict enforcement has been especially effective when > used in conjunction with the new "Three sharps, you're out" statutes that > have already been approved by many state legislatures. > > Of course the automatic and semi-automatic valved models - both piston and > the middle-European rotary, are much more dangerous than the traditional > single valve trombone. Interpol has also reported the sudden appearance of > of rear-blasting Cavalry models that were thought to have been completely > eliminated during the Great Confiscation mandated by the 1918 Treaty of > Versailles signed by representatives of every civilized country of the > period. You may recall that those instruments were melted down and became an > integral part of the Trans-Atlantic Telephone Cable that helped to unite > America and Europe. It is believed that the new source of these WMD's are > isolated factories in rural areas of China. The awesome destructive power of > the double trigger bass trombone could never have been imagined by the > founding fathers when they granted us the right to keep and bear arms. > > Remember: When trombones are outlawed, only outlaws will play "I'm Gettin' > Sentimental Over You." > > (author unknown) > : An attachment to this post has been stripped by: : > : plaintext.pl : > : Original idea by Phillip Porch (ppp@theporch.com) : > : Written by Stephen Modena, AB4EL (shimshon@theporch.com) : > : Modifications by Mearl Danner, (jmdanner@samford.edu) : > : All rights reserved. : > ............................................................ > > > From: Chris Tune Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 08:33:37 -0800 To: Barry Green , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3453] Re: sound engineers, how to murder - kinda a lengthy diatribe but, heck! It's just another indicator of how rare our species is becoming. [as trombone players, we actually need to be trained to be able to HEAR pitch and UNDERSTAND music, on the fly, from an artistic and technical sense--kinda like great musicians from the past: Ellington, Basie, Ella, Dizzy and Bird, etc. . .] Obviously, this means that we are going to be able to perform at a higher level of competence than many singers. I've grown comfortable with that and am aware that the "frontman" has his/her own unique personality requirements which go beyond just singing well. What makes it so odd to me, is the progression and ease with which this can be done. Looking at EM magazine (I had a subcription uninterupted from roughly 1992 to 2000, then let it lapse and now am back with issue 2 of my new subscription) I've kept very closely abreast of the developments in electronic music and home studio gear. Lots of the developments make me very, very happy. For example, I'm so excited about the improvements in price/performance in large format condenser mics that I almost can't contain myself from getting a pair, even though I can't afford it right now. I just think we are at a junction of ethical life which is unique. I believe that 95 percent of the entire population really WANT to be honest and be able to be proud of themselves. To look at themselves as REALLY the good guy. BUT, ego is a funny thing and art is also a funny thing. Sometimes, I think the tech side gets so proud of it's power that it loses site of the real meaning of Christmas, so to speak. . .Do we really want to "comp the vocal". Or conversely, can the band be given "scratch copies"? Luckily, there are many pros in the studios who feel just the same as you and me. Often, that's WHY they are pros. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Green" To: "Chris Tune" ; Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 6:40 AM Subject: Re: [TROMBONE-L:3445] Re: sound engineers, how to murder - kinda a lengthy diatribe but, heck! > This is nothing new, it's been going on for years. Our "music" is now > more about marketing than music. > There is good music available, just not what's mass marketed and spoon fed > to the general public and it's not just in music either. > > Barry Green > Nashville > > From: John Burton Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:46:18 -0500 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3454] RE: Memorable Melody Could I nominate "Smoke, Smoke, Smoke that cigarette"?? Failing that, 'most anything by Commander Codey and His Lost Planet Airmen. I'm still in love with "Seventy Six Trombones"... Whistle that at work and you'll soon have a whole roomful of folks whistling! Same with the theme from "Bridge Over the River Kwi" ~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~= john burton Bach 50B3 Bass Trombone, Charleston NeoPhonic Orchestra South Charleston, West Virginia > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu [mailto:owner-TROMBONE- > L@server5.samford.edu] On Behalf Of Earl Needham > Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 9:36 AM > To: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu > Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3448] Memorable Melody > > At 06:46 AM 1/5/2005, Craig Parmerlee wrote: > >I'm not sure there is one memorable melody in the last 15 years. > > Planet Texas by Kenny Rogers. > > Thanks y'all... > Earl > > > Earl Needham, KD5XB, Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk > http://kd5xb-2.no-ip.info From: Adrian Drover Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 17:09:14 -0000 To: , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3455] RE: Memorable Melody From: "John Burton" > Whistle that at work and > you'll soon have a whole roomful of folks whistling! Same with the theme > from "Bridge Over the River Kwi" Would that be the original Colonel Bogey march, or the counter melody that was added for the movie? A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk From: Earl Needham Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 10:37:53 -0700 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3456] RE: Memorable Melody At 09:46 AM 1/5/2005, John Burton wrote: >Could I nominate "Smoke, Smoke, Smoke that cigarette"?? > >Failing that, 'most anything by Commander Codey and His Lost Planet Airmen. > > >I'm still in love with "Seventy Six Trombones"... Whistle that at work and >you'll soon have a whole roomful of folks whistling! Same with the theme >from "Bridge Over the River Kwi" > But they're all over the 15-year limit imposed in the original message... BTW, I heard "Dark Town Strutters' Ball" a couple of weeks ago on my XM! Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB, Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk http://kd5xb-2.no-ip.info From: Delbert Pakiser Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:41:06 -0700 To: 'Chris Tune' , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3457] Re: sound engineers, how to murder - kinda a lengthy diatribe but, heck! Good Morning, Let's look at the big picture. There are actors who do a great job. Yet in the dangerous action, a stunt double is used. The stunt double does the job, takes the risk, and gets no credit. In the music world, there are some big names who get the credit for great music writing. Yet, there are ghost writers who write the music for them. The ghost writers do the work and get no credit. In Denver this Christmas season, the Radio City Rockettes came to Denver for a series of shows. They used a pre-recorded sound track. There is an example of ghost musicians who played the gig and the Denver musicians had no work. Recently, there was a topic of playing on a cruse ship. Once again the shows usually use sound tracks or ghost musicians. Yes, the digital sound world has a lot of ability to edit and make a sloppy performance an excellent one. When a sound engineer has the equipment and challenge, there is a desire to edit and do the best possible job. We love a good challenge. GOAL!! Expect only live performances. We need to give up some income by not playing in a recording session meant for sound track performances. We need to avoid attending shows with sound tracks. LIVE MUSIC FOR 2005 Del Pakiser Bass Trombonist Recording Engineer -----Original Message----- From: owner-TROMBONE-L@listproc.samford.edu [mailto:owner-TROMBONE-L@listproc.samford.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Tune Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 11:17 PM To: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3445] Re: sound engineers, how to murder - kinda a lengthy diatribe but, heck! If you think you are mad at sound engineers BEFORE reading this. . .well. . .you may very well be VERY angry after reading this. You will definitely be angry with ME if you don't like long messages. If that's you. . .don't read this. . . I was reading my copy of "Electronic Musician" when I stumbled upon this article. The text was so oddly unsettling that I opened up an interesting conversation with my son, Adam, about performing and about the ethics of selling a recording or a performance as "your own" when it has been SUBSTANTIALLY made out of bits and pieces of various parts of substandard "takes" . . . .apparently something akin to this is so common it already has a name: "Comping the vocal". . . .this article actually mentions purposely using "funky stuff" for artistic purposes. . .I'm more concerned with the "big picture". Definitions: "Comping the Vocal"-cutting up vocals and reassembling for a final take. Short for "composing the vocal"? Next you fix the less-than-perfect intonation by "Tuning the vocal". . . . Doubtlessly, you will see why I got kinda weirded out, when you read this article [my concern here is that we may have opened "Pandora's Box" here with powerful digital editing]: ARTICLE: Vocal Editing Techniques Comping the lead vocal--editing together the best parts of multiple vocal tracks into one master take--frequently requires more time than any other edit. Often, the goal in creating a vocal comp is to obtain the most emotive performance possible--to capture the appropriate emotion that the artist intends for the song. That idea must be kept in mind while editing. Think of the song first and choose performances that are best for the song. The best vocal performances are not always technically perfect. There might be slight pitch problems, mispronunciations, mic-level issues, or even noise and distortion on the track. Yet, as a whole, the performance is perfect in delivering the emotion of the song. So, don't get caught up in finding the best technical performance by sacrificing the emotion in the editing process. If you used a take sheet, follow the notes you made on the take sheets to steer your vocal edits. Without the take sheets or other comments on your recorded tracks, you'll probably need to listen to each take and make notes now during the editing process. This makes the editing process much more time-consuming. For vocal tracks, I analyze the delivery of every phrase, word and syllable. Although you probably didn't get that detailed when recording the vocal tracks, it's good to get that detailed now. Write down additional notes on the take sheet or lyric sheet about edit points. Pick and choose each part of the vocal performance carefully when creating your master comp. Professional producers go to this level of detail. You should, too. Tuning Vocal Tracks After you've comped your vocal tracks, it's common to tune then using an auto-tuning program. These programs can automatically tune the track for you, but often result in decent, yet imperfect tuning performances. I recommend taking control of the tuning process and tuning the vocal track manually. To perfect the tuning of your vocal track, you should analyze and tune each vocal phrase separately. The program enables you to see the pitches of each vocal note plotted against the notes in the song's key (the scale). You can then manually alter the pitch of each note by drawing new pitch lines and curves. Finally, you can re-record each newly tuned vocal phrase onto a new track, eventually making a completely tuned vocal track. Some artists make it a point NOT to use auto-tuning. This is noteworthy. If the singer on your project can sing totally in tune (or in tune enough), don't bother with auto-tuning and leave the raw performances. Often, the "realness" of these raw performances creates a better overall feel on the recording than processed vocals. Aligning Melodies and Harmonies After comping the lead vocal track, it's a good idea to tighten up the rhythms of the harmony-vocal tracks to match the lead vocals. The point is to get the start and end point of each harmony note tightly aligned with the lead vocal. If the harmony note is too long, shorten it by cutting some of the middle of the note out, and creating crossfades between the remaining regions (see Fig. 1) You may need to use equal power crossfades here, and the crossfades may have to be a little longer than usual to make this sound natural. If the harmony note is too short, then you should copy a part of the middle of the harmony note, and paste it into the middle of the note to make it longer. Then apply crossfades to smooth it out (see Fig. 2). In this case, too, you may need to use equal power crossfades, and the crossfades may have to be a little longer than usual to make this sound natural. Also, trim the starts and ends of the notes so that they are rhythmically tight. END ARTICLE I was tempted to add in my "thoughts" while reading this article, just to make this funny. But, ultimately, this is not funny. The software has legitimate uses, of course, and there are plenty of artists who really CAN sing, or play trombone (MTC), and HECK, I've even taken a glitch or two out of a tiny spot in an otherwise great jazz trombone solo I recorded at home. . .I think what makes me so unsettled, is the way the author assumes that the use of this kind of digital horsepower is just the everyday ordinary course of events. That, somehow, we won't get that "magic take" with just a little more work. . .and besides, we may NEVER get that magic, so heck. . .just open up the Antares program and auto tune it and snip the daylights out of it and no one will ever be aware of all the editing. It may not be the way the Beatles did it. . .but those were days so long ago that it almost seems quaint. I'm hoping there eventually must be some sort of NEW movement afoot because of the tremendous amount of artificial editing that can be done. This should be called the DIGITAL EDITING ETHICS MOVEMENT. It's first tenet should be: IF YOU CAN'T PERFORM "CLOSE" TO THE EDITED LEVEL THEN DON"T PRETEND. . . DON"T "MILLI VANILLI" US! Some are going to argue that Milli Vanilli was different. At least one of them couldn't sing very much at all and had all his vocals done by a studio singer. . .but, IS THIS REALLY VERY DIFFERENT? How good a singer should you be to record your own album? Why not just fix most every part of the vocal? I'm sure most vocals have a touch here and there. . .what's to stop EXTENSIVE artificial "comping the vocal". When will we make a machine that comps the vocal in "real time". Hey maybe in the future you can get a machine with a "Sinatra" and "Elvis" and "Bing Crosby" setting on it. . .and you sing your out of tune goofy voice into it and "voila", you sound like ole' Blue Eyes. Also, you can apply this ethics problem to video too, since soon, we will see artificial actors and algorhythms for their behavior. You could see that you could use these creative tools to create some pretty bizarre, but apparently REAL-LOOKING stuff. . .but IS IT RIGHT TO DO THIS? [There is a really good movie with Sean Connery called Rising Sun (1993) which shows a digital reconstruction of a video used to frame someone for a murder. . .small ethics prob] The implications of this article is that it's really no problem to take a lack luster set of vocal takes and through the magic of digital editing make an excellent take. And then you could simply provide "guide tracks" to your vocalist to use when he/she gets on SNL. . . Chris Tune From: Barry Green Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 14:15:02 -0600 To: , 'Chris Tune' , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3458] Re: sound engineers, how to murder - kinda a lengthy diatribe but, heck! > GOAL!! Expect only live performances. We need to give up some income by > not playing in a recording session meant for sound track performances. We > need to avoid attending shows with sound tracks. 95% of my income comes from playing sessions, I have a mortgage, a wife and 2 kids nearing college, I'm grateful everyday that I'm making a good living playing the trombone in a recording studio, I could not afford to give up income. (I play on many cruise ship tracks) I do agree that live performance is important and won't support anything less when I part with money to see a concert. Barry Green Nashville From: John Burton Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 16:24:10 -0500 To: , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3459] RE: Memorable Melody We did whistle the "Colonel Bogey March" while in NCO Academy in Weisbaden, FRG .. Sure got your heel-beat down quick! ~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~= john burton Bach 50B3 Bass Trombone, Charleston NeoPhonic Orchestra South Charleston, West Virginia > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu [mailto:owner-TROMBONE- > L@server5.samford.edu] On Behalf Of Adrian Drover > Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 12:09 PM > To: john.burton@sandbox.dynip.com; TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu > Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3455] RE: Memorable Melody > > > From: "John Burton" > > > > Whistle that at work and > > you'll soon have a whole roomful of folks whistling! Same with the > theme > > from "Bridge Over the River Kwi" > > > Would that be the original Colonel Bogey march, or the counter melody that > was added for the movie? > > A. > > Adrian Drover > ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk > Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk From: John Burton Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 16:24:10 -0500 To: , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3460] RE: Memorable Melody We do "Dark Town" in the Dixie-land band I play in. But if "Trombones" is over the limit, surely "Dark Town Strutters Ball" is over the 15-year limit... --==jb==-- ~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~= john burton Bach 50B3 Bass Trombone, Charleston NeoPhonic Orchestra South Charleston, West Virginia > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu [mailto:owner-TROMBONE- > L@server5.samford.edu] On Behalf Of Earl Needham > Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 12:38 PM > To: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu > Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3456] RE: Memorable Melody > > At 09:46 AM 1/5/2005, John Burton wrote: > >Could I nominate "Smoke, Smoke, Smoke that cigarette"?? > > > >Failing that, 'most anything by Commander Codey and His Lost Planet > Airmen. > > > > > >I'm still in love with "Seventy Six Trombones"... Whistle that at work > and > >you'll soon have a whole roomful of folks whistling! Same with the theme > >from "Bridge Over the River Kwi" > > > > But they're all over the 15-year limit imposed in the original > message... > > BTW, I heard "Dark Town Strutters' Ball" a couple of weeks ago on > my XM! > > Earl > > > Earl Needham, KD5XB, Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk > http://kd5xb-2.no-ip.info From: Gabriel Langfur Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:32:17 -0800 (PST) To: Trombone-L Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3461] Re: Bach bass on eBay Hear hear. Too bad you didn't get more for it...that's a really low price for a good Bach bass. Gabe --- Chris Tune wrote: > Yes, Carl. Really nicely done ad on Ebay. > > Chris Tune > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Izzo" > To: ; "Trombone-L" > > Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 2:25 PM > Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3435] Re: Bach bass on eBay > > > > Carl, > > > > THANK YOU VERY MUCH for your articulate ad on E-bay. > > So so so many people advertise with ignorance of what > > they are selling, ignorance of what the metals are, > > e.g. calling brass "gold", mislabelling parts, calling > > everything "vintage" and/or "rare", & normally very > > poor grammar, punctuations, & spelling. Yours was a > > joy to read. > > > > Tom > > (a multi Bach owner). > > > > --- Carl Musholt wrote: > > > >> Hello list! I'm selling a Bach bass trombone on > >> ebay. Item # is > >> 3772615269. You may be able to get right to it by > >> clicking on this > >> link: > >> > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64376&item=3772615269&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > >> but I'm not sure it works that way. > >> > >> Happy new year to all! > >> > >> Carl Musholt > >> > >> > > > > > > ===== > > Tom Izzo > > Principal Trombonist, Bristol Renaissance Faire; > > Bass Trombonist, West Suburban Symphony Orchestra; > > Founding Director, The Naperville Area Trombone > Ensemble; > > Alto/Tenor/Bass/Contrabass Trombones, Tubas, Euphonium, > Bass Trumpet, > > Electric Bass, Timpani & Percussion. > > http://www.Geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/7875/ > > (630) 858-7832 > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn > more. > > http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA From: Craig Parmerlee Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 17:39:43 -0500 To: Chris Tune Cc: Barry Green , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3462] Re: sound engineers, how to murder - kinda a lengthy diatribe but, heck! Chris Tune wrote: > I just think we are at a junction of ethical life which is unique. I > believe that 95 percent of the entire population really WANT to be > honest and be able to be proud of themselves. To look at themselves > as REALLY the good guy. You seem to be confusing manufacturing with art. Pop music is manufacturing. Manufacturers use the tools available to produce the highest volume of consumer-ready product with the lowest rejection rate. I don't see any ethical problem there. Now if this were a creative, artistic process, that would be a whole different thing. From: Chris Tune Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 15:49:55 -0800 To: Craig Parmerlee Cc: Barry Green , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3463] Re: sound engineers, how to murder - kinda a lengthy diatribe but, heck! Where is the "bright line"? Probably Cole Porter was considered "commercial music" when originally created. Now we realize that his was great art. Certainly, Milli Vanilli never considered themselves to be "high art". Why did we even react as a public to the "scandal" that arose around them? Why the bugaboo about Ashlee Simpson's SNL appearance? I'm sure she and her management are trying to figure out how to convince the world that Ashlee really is a very competent singer (who knows she might not be anywhere near as bad as she seems. . .) I guess the problem is--few persons but those very close to the production process know exactly how good Ashlee is when really trying for a "take". . .how much comping was done? a lot? a little? I know most of us don't care, but I can't help but get the eerie feeling that this is going to matter. . AND. . .this brings up some side issues. Of course we have advanced orchestral synthesizer machines such as the one I saw in the news about a year or two ago. This was putting musicians out of work on Broadway. Last month I saw another article about this company having installed this gear in a major Orange County theatrical venue and naturally Local 7 was angry about it. I'm personally not against synthesis, sampling or digital magic at all. What I'm interested in, is HOW this stuff is used. I feel that's a big part of being an artist. I know Lloyd Ulyate theorized that the real death of the TV underscore and theme biz was the advent of high quality synthesis. . .right around the time of Miami Vice. I'm not really trying to establish some sort of boycott (I don't think they work too well) or get everybody riled up. What I do think is facinating, is the fact that such power develops very, very quickly. Even ethical considerations aside, we see some instances where the population at large doesn't even realise what can be faked. So you've got a consumer ignorance issue (maybe a little less with the true "nerds"). I'm sure there are many people out there that probably don't believe you can put together remarkable repair jobs on audio tracks. The new technology is really a quantuum leap ahead of the old analog technology. I know. I was that kid with a large Concertone 10 1/2" reel-to-reel recorder who edited my own tapes on a tape editing block. . .later, I went to a Teac 3340 machine (I've still got one gathering dust in the garage) and smaller analog four-track systems. Now I've got Cubase SL and can open up an editing window which allows me to go down to an individual sample and subtly alter every aspect of the waveform. Algorhythms exist to do many things, such as execute perfect crossfades, and more will be developed. Antares Company is the best known provider of the "tuning" add-ins which allow a track to be essentially "quantized" as to pitch. Of course, just like the author said, it is more satisfying if the pitches are "hand tuned". I can do all of the things mentioned in this article in terms of snipping tiny pieces of vocal and reconfiguring them. I can also buy an Antares add-in if I wanted to tune that way. . Of course I can also do the equivalent of Photoshop work on any digital image because I installed the freeware GIMP (Gnu Image Manipulation Program). This can do amazing things to a digital photograph. I was able to goof around with putting Keith Urban's sillouette around my face. . .a trick my wife found pretty distressing, since she's a Keith fan. Still, that's what I would have looked like if I hadn't lost all this hair. . . Next maybe I'll get Maya or some other video effects generation software and I could appear to be leading an army of angry trombonists or who knows what. Just hoping for stimulating trombone discussions this 2005. Chris Tune ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Parmerlee" To: "Chris Tune" Cc: "Barry Green" ; Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 2:39 PM Subject: Re: [TROMBONE-L:3453] Re: sound engineers, how to murder - kinda a lengthy diatribe but, heck! > Chris Tune wrote: > >> I just think we are at a junction of ethical life which is unique. I >> believe that 95 percent of the entire population really WANT to be honest >> and be able to be proud of themselves. To look at themselves as REALLY >> the good guy. > > You seem to be confusing manufacturing with art. Pop music is > manufacturing. Manufacturers use the tools available to produce the > highest volume of consumer-ready product with the lowest rejection rate. > I don't see any ethical problem there. Now if this were a creative, > artistic process, that would be a whole different thing. > From: Daniel Pliskin Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 23:44:12 +0000 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3464] Re: sound engineers, how to murder - kinda a lengthy diatr Y'all, Delbert, thanks for your bravery., What youâve sent us is an article about the ART FORM of non-linear editing. Letâs see, you hiked out to an area of the country, which you happened to find, all by yourself. You dug up some of this ore and some of that ore, which you smelted and blended to make the particular type of brass, you were after and you formed it into a trombone, right? No? Well then your ability to play trombone is, to a large part, due to just a few people who you forgot to thank. Well, they did get paid for their efforts, in putting that trombone into your hands. How is that different than paying an ARTIST, behind the console, to fix up the drek that came out of your mouth or your instrument? My only objection to the scenario is that the editorâs name wasnât listed up there along with that of the lead singer. Is that what I choose to listen to? Heck no! Or, at least I hope it isnât. How could I possibly know, these days. But Iâve also put a whole bunch of time into being a studio musician and I can affirm that there is a point where any piece of music looses its punch. Another, cleaner take wonât do it. The thrill is gone. Do you throw all those takes out? No, you find an editing artist to piece something together. If you listen to pop music, youâre listening to that stuff, all of the time. What is the option? Well, the option is that background tracks all be synthesized, so that they are at least ãperfectä and so that it doesnât cost so much money to get to that one take where everything else is perfect. But let me suggest that itâs been a long, long time, since a take was done in one pass, with one microphone, in the middle of the room. DanP From: Chris Tune Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 16:02:39 -0800 To: , , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3465] RE: Memorable Melody This could be interesting: Let's see 15 years makes it about 1999 and forward. So tunes like "Lady", the Lionel Ritchie song is out. Probably most likely are the Broadway tunes in shows like Lion King and so forth. Unfortunately, I'm not really up on those. . . Let's see. . .are there any really memorable themes from shows like TV or movies. Sorta like "Suicide is Painless" from M.A.S.H.? Something like that from recent times. You know? a tune that almost ANYBODY would recognize? I'm still thinking. . .I'll get back to the list. Chris Tune ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Burton" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 1:24 PM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3460] RE: Memorable Melody > We do "Dark Town" in the Dixie-land band I play in. But if "Trombones" is > over the limit, surely "Dark Town Strutters Ball" is over the 15-year > limit... > > --==jb==-- > > ~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~= > > john burton > Bach 50B3 > Bass Trombone, Charleston NeoPhonic Orchestra > South Charleston, West Virginia > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu [mailto:owner-TROMBONE- >> L@server5.samford.edu] On Behalf Of Earl Needham >> Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 12:38 PM >> To: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu >> Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3456] RE: Memorable Melody >> >> At 09:46 AM 1/5/2005, John Burton wrote: >> >Could I nominate "Smoke, Smoke, Smoke that cigarette"?? >> > >> >Failing that, 'most anything by Commander Codey and His Lost Planet >> Airmen. >> > >> > >> >I'm still in love with "Seventy Six Trombones"... Whistle that at work >> and >> >you'll soon have a whole roomful of folks whistling! Same with the >> >theme >> >from "Bridge Over the River Kwi" >> > >> >> But they're all over the 15-year limit imposed in the original >> message... >> >> BTW, I heard "Dark Town Strutters' Ball" a couple of weeks ago >> on >> my XM! >> >> Earl >> >> >> Earl Needham, KD5XB, Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk >> http://kd5xb-2.no-ip.info > > > From: Earl Needham Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 17:07:51 -0700 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3466] RE: Memorable Melody At 05:02 PM 1/5/2005, Chris Tune wrote: >This could be interesting: Let's see 15 years makes it about 1999 and >forward. 1989. Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB, Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk http://kd5xb-2.no-ip.info From: Craig Parmerlee Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 20:01:21 -0500 To: Chris Tune Cc: Barry Green , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3467] Re: sound engineers, how to murder - kinda a lengthy diatribe but, heck! Chris Tune wrote: > Probably Cole Porter was considered "commercial music" when originally > created. In the words of the immortal Lloyd Bentson, I knew Cole Porter, Cole Porter was a friend of mine, today's pop music is no Cole Porter. :) Seriously, I challenge anybody to identify a single song in the top-40 since 1990 that will have any lasting impact. (OK, you can't count the remakes of songs that were legitimate hits of the 50s, 60s, 70s.) Name one 90s or 00s song with 1/10th the staying power of Night and Day, Under My Skin, Anything Goes, It's All right with Me, or In The Still of the Night. Good luck. I don't mean to sound like a bitter old fart, but what is produced today is not good music. It is a manufactured product purpose-targeted at focus-group-tested demographics for the purposes of filling radio space between advertisements. There is good music being produced, but none of it is on Clear Channel, your friendly media monopoly. This is not JUST a rant. I work with a youth music program. Each year, I try to arrange a band piece for our final concert using songs the kids listen to on the radio. After doing tunes by MB20 and the Back Street Boys, I've pretty much given up on any of this crap. There isn't anything musical for an arranger to latch onto. I've had better success with crossover pieces and some of the well traveled smooth jazz pieces. Some of the Dave Koz stuff goes over very well. Whether you like him or not, he can write a hook. A regional artist, Cathy Morris, also writes great hooks. Music that can stick to your bones. What I learned for my troubles is that kids don't particularly like today's top-40 crap any more than I do. Sure they sing the tunes for 2 weeks, but then they are gone. The half-life is too short for me to write a useful chart. Movie themes (Lion King, Titanic, etc) used to work well, but Hollywood now has compressed the life cycle of movies to a 5 week flash in the pan as they rush the product to Europe and DVD, so that's not much of a source of material anymore. But the good news is that kids enjoy playing good songs no matter when they were written. Forget pop music from the 90s and the new millennium. It is a musical landfill. From: Craig Parmerlee Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 20:08:37 -0500 To: Cc: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3468] RE: Memorable Melody Earl Needham wrote: > At 05:02 PM 1/5/2005, Chris Tune wrote: > >> This could be interesting: Let's see 15 years makes it about 1999 >> and forward. > > > 1989. > > Earl My point exactly. There have been loads of great songs with great top-40 success. Some that will live a very long time. Elton John wrote a bunch. EWF. The Beatles. Kenny Rogers. Kenny Loggins. Al Green. Lionel Ritchie. Dan Fogelburg. Christopher Cross. This list could include 100s of great artists. And exactly NONE of this has happened since 1990. I don't care about top-40 one way or the other, but the fact is we've been in the dark ages for 15 years now. From: Chris Waage Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 19:52:52 -0600 To: Trombone-L , brass_list Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3469] Online Trombone Journal Offline January 5-7, 2005 The Online Trombone Journal will be offline from the early evening of January 5 until the late evening of January 7. We will be moving our server to a new data center in the heart of San Francisco: ColoServe (http://www.coloserve.com/index.html). ColoServ is a premiere colocation facility on the west coast. Relocating our server at ColoServ will increase our alotted bandwidth and access speeds while reducing our monthly costs for serve hosting. The OTJ Forum will still be available. For more information about accessing the Forum while the main serve is being relocated send an email to nethelp@forum.trombone.org (contents and subject line may be blank) and instructions will be sent back to you automatically on how to do so. -- Chris Waage, Bass Trombonist The Online Trombone Journal www. trombone.org From: Chris Waage Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 21:23:21 -0600 To: Trombone-L Cc: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3470] FW: Otto Henry Please send your replies directly to Paul - paulniem@yahoo.com. ------ Forwarded Message From: Paul Niemisto Reply-To: Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 19:10:57 -0800 (PST) To: Chris Waage Subject: Otto Henry Chris- can you help me get this on the chat ? ================================================ Otto Henry wrote a "Passacaglia and Fugue" for bass trombone and piano in 1963. Robert King published it. In 2005 I can't find a scintilla of information on this composer. Robert King Music Company has no idea about this man- so I'm really at a loss. Is there someone out there who has experience or memory that goes back four decades and can tell me who Otto Henry is/was? I'm beginning to think it's a pen name. PN ===== PAUL NIEMISTO, PhD St. Olaf email address: International Wind Music History Symposium and Vintage Band Music Festival, July 27-August 1, 2006 Web Page= http://www.stolaf.edu/events/vintageband __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ------ End of Forwarded Message From: Mitsuru SUGISAKI Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 12:42:55 +0900 To: Trombone-L Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3471] Re: Japan? Earl, > Anybody on this list in Japan? Yes, right here! Mitsuru From: Raymond Horton Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 23:25:25 -0500 To: Chris Tune Cc: , , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3472] RE: Memorable Melody Chris Tune wrote: > This could be interesting: Let's see 15 years makes it about 1999 and > forward. So tunes like "Lady", the Lionel Ritchie song is out. > Probably most likely are the Broadway tunes in shows like Lion King > and so forth. Unfortunately, I'm not really up on those. . . > > Let's see. . .are there any really memorable themes from shows like TV > or movies. Sorta like "Suicide is Painless" from M.A.S.H.? Something > like that from recent times. You know? a tune that almost ANYBODY > would recognize? ... > Sorry, Chris. The song came from the M.A.S.H. movie in 1970. 15 years back would equal 1989 (since 2005 just started). Pretty hard to think of anything memorable since then. "Hit Me Baby, One More Time" perhaps? (Only if accompanying videos can be factored in the equation.) RBH > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Burton" > > To: ; > Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 1:24 PM > Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3460] RE: Memorable Melody > > >> We do "Dark Town" in the Dixie-land band I play in. But if >> "Trombones" is >> over the limit, surely "Dark Town Strutters Ball" is over the 15-year >> limit... >> >> --==jb==-- >> >> ~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~= >> >> john burton >> Bach 50B3 >> Bass Trombone, Charleston NeoPhonic Orchestra >> South Charleston, West Virginia >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu [mailto:owner-TROMBONE- >>> L@server5.samford.edu] On Behalf Of Earl Needham >>> Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 12:38 PM >>> To: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu >>> Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3456] RE: Memorable Melody >>> >>> At 09:46 AM 1/5/2005, John Burton wrote: >>> >Could I nominate "Smoke, Smoke, Smoke that cigarette"?? >>> > >>> >Failing that, 'most anything by Commander Codey and His Lost Planet >>> Airmen. >>> > >>> > >>> >I'm still in love with "Seventy Six Trombones"... Whistle that at >>> work >>> and >>> >you'll soon have a whole roomful of folks whistling! Same with the >>> >theme >>> >from "Bridge Over the River Kwi" >>> > >>> >>> But they're all over the 15-year limit imposed in the original >>> message... >>> >>> BTW, I heard "Dark Town Strutters' Ball" a couple of weeks >>> ago on >>> my XM! >>> >>> Earl >>> >>> >>> Earl Needham, KD5XB, Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk >>> http://kd5xb-2.no-ip.info >> >> >> >> > > From: Jeff Albert Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 22:46:03 -0600 To: Cc: Chris Tune , , , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3473] RE: Memorable Melody I'm not claiming to like any of this stuff, but these have something similar to a melody. 1989: Wind Beneath My Wings - Bette Midler Miss you like Crazy - Natalie Cole Angel of Harlem - U2 1990: Here and Now - Luther Vandross 1991: Everything I do - Bryan Adams 1992: Tears in heaven - Eric Clapton Under The Bridge - Red Hot Chili Peppers 1993: well 93 is a little tough 1994: All I Wanna Do - Cheryl Crow Can you Fell the Love Tonight - Elton John skip a few years for brevity 1999: Smooth - Sanatana Believe - Cher 2000: Higher - Creed Does "Who Let The Dogs Out" count? I guess my point is that while I agree that most pop music is disposable, the art of songwriting is not completely dead,in spite of what we grumpy old farts think. One of the Grammy record of the year nominees this year (Heaven by Los Lonely Boys) is actually very good. The Green Day tune is ok, and the other three have no melodic content past the bassline, BUT there is one good song in the bunch. -- Jeff Albert P.O. Box 8645 Mandeville, LA 70470 (504) 782-5835 www.jeffalbert.com jeff@jeffalbert.com From: Chris Tune Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 20:55:13 -0800 To: , Cc: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3474] RE: Memorable Melody It's truly looking that way. I went to some website (I think "about.com" it came up on a Googling on Top 40 songs, or similar). I then scoured the site for any evidence that there was one of the obvious "standards" out there. . .e.g. Sunshine of my Life - Stevie Wonder. There just wasn't anything in the recent decade that stuck out. . .whoa! So far: "exactly NONE". . Chris Tune ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Parmerlee" To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 5:08 PM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3468] RE: Memorable Melody > Earl Needham wrote: > >> At 05:02 PM 1/5/2005, Chris Tune wrote: >> >>> This could be interesting: Let's see 15 years makes it about 1999 and >>> forward. >> >> >> 1989. >> >> Earl > > My point exactly. There have been loads of great songs with great top-40 > success. Some that will live a very long time. Elton John wrote a bunch. > EWF. The Beatles. Kenny Rogers. Kenny Loggins. Al Green. Lionel > Ritchie. Dan Fogelburg. Christopher Cross. This list could include 100s > of great artists. And exactly NONE of this has happened since 1990. I > don't care about top-40 one way or the other, but the fact is we've been > in the dark ages for 15 years now. > > From: Chris Tune Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 21:37:29 -0800 To: , Cc: , , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3475] RE: Memorable Melody I was applying a pretty stringent standard: My swiss-cheese brain had to fully remember the tune. . .I had to "light up" with the full extent of the tune and be able to really get into singing it. Of course countless repetitions of tunes like Ipanema and Sunshine of My Life have allowed me to "turn on the switch" on tunes like that. I had to play "What Are You Doing for the Rest of Your Life?" the other night and it felt like I've played it a million times, but in reality it really has only been several times. There really is "some magic" to "standards", that is unexplainable. . .they just stick to your "soul". . . I paused over several of the Clapton entries I saw--these may wind up as standards some day. Particularly "Tears in Heaven" because it really is a very singable and melodious song by Eric Clapton. I know the man was inspired to write something very good at this time and he did. I have a very great affinity and love for Eric's music. I sing kinda like him and I once played the guitar. I also LOVE the blues. . .so Eric really is one of my favorite musicians. . .(some may wince at this. . but I believe this man has a true love of music, that allows him to be comfortable in his own musical "skin", AND he's not really much of a showoff. . another real plus) But, unfortunately, as my friend Leroy Lovett will tell you, making a "STANDARD" is hard. I was applying the test of: Which of these tunes will be the "standards" of tommorrow? The reference to Leroy Lovett is, perhaps interesting. I found it interesting when Leroy told me this story" Lovett was hired in as an executive with Motown Records after it began to become pretty big (sometime in the mid-to-late sixties). He continued on as Motown moved out to Los Angeles, CA. In fact he was a Creative Director there during much of the time that Stevie Wonder started lighting up. He recalls being in a meeting with Berry Gordy where Gordy asked if the various executives of Motown could not somehow work it out that a particular tune they were releasing would become a "standard". Lovett, was at first taken aback, but eventually commented. . ."you can't just MAKE something a standard. . " He went on: "This is something that has to . . .'HAPPEN'. . .I mean musicians and people have to just recognize the music. . ." Maybe that's what we're talking about here. . . . are there any NEW "STANDARDS"? If not, why not? Maybe this new environment doesn't lend itself to the music "rising" to that level. I dunno. . .interesting thought tho' . . . Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Albert" To: Cc: "Chris Tune" ; ; ; Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 8:46 PM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3473] RE: Memorable Melody > I'm not claiming to like any of this stuff, but these have something > similar to a melody. > > 1989: > Wind Beneath My Wings - Bette Midler > Miss you like Crazy - Natalie Cole > Angel of Harlem - U2 > > 1990: > Here and Now - Luther Vandross > > 1991: > Everything I do - Bryan Adams > > 1992: > Tears in heaven - Eric Clapton > Under The Bridge - Red Hot Chili Peppers > > 1993: > well 93 is a little tough > > 1994: > All I Wanna Do - Cheryl Crow > Can you Fell the Love Tonight - Elton John > > skip a few years for brevity > > 1999: > Smooth - Sanatana > Believe - Cher > > 2000: > Higher - Creed > > Does "Who Let The Dogs Out" count? > > I guess my point is that while I agree that most pop music is disposable, > the art of songwriting is not completely dead,in spite of what we grumpy > old farts think. > > One of the Grammy record of the year nominees this year (Heaven by Los > Lonely Boys) is actually very good. The Green Day tune is ok, and the > other three have no melodic content past the bassline, BUT there is one > good song in the bunch. > > -- > Jeff Albert > P.O. Box 8645 > Mandeville, LA 70470 > (504) 782-5835 > www.jeffalbert.com > jeff@jeffalbert.com > > From: Chris Tune Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 21:41:06 -0800 To: Raymond Horton Cc: , , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3476] RE: Memorable Melody Yes. I just mentioned the MASH song because I believe it's got bona fide "STANDARD" written ALL OVER IT. In fact Johnny Mandel can really, really write music. He's still pretty robust looking too. . .I hope to see him at the Big Band Academy luncheon coming up here in March. I understand Louie Bellson is going to be "inducted" into their hall-of-fame. As if he NEEDS that. I feel, if you don't know who Louie is. . .well you need to play a little more in big bands and ask around. . . Anyway. I DID go to some web sites and look for tunes that I thought were standards material during 1989 to the present. . .so far I haven't really come up with any. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Raymond Horton" To: "Chris Tune" Cc: ; ; Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 8:25 PM Subject: Re: [TROMBONE-L:3465] RE: Memorable Melody > Chris Tune wrote: > >> This could be interesting: Let's see 15 years makes it about 1999 and >> forward. So tunes like "Lady", the Lionel Ritchie song is out. >> Probably most likely are the Broadway tunes in shows like Lion King and >> so forth. Unfortunately, I'm not really up on those. . . >> >> Let's see. . .are there any really memorable themes from shows like TV or >> movies. Sorta like "Suicide is Painless" from M.A.S.H.? Something like >> that from recent times. You know? a tune that almost ANYBODY would >> recognize? ... >> > > Sorry, Chris. The song came from the M.A.S.H. movie in 1970. > 15 years back would equal 1989 (since 2005 just started). Pretty hard to > think of anything memorable since then. > "Hit Me Baby, One More Time" perhaps? (Only if accompanying videos can be > factored in the equation.) > RBH > > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Burton" >> >> To: ; >> Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 1:24 PM >> Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3460] RE: Memorable Melody >> >> >>> We do "Dark Town" in the Dixie-land band I play in. But if "Trombones" >>> is >>> over the limit, surely "Dark Town Strutters Ball" is over the 15-year >>> limit... >>> >>> --==jb==-- >>> >>> ~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~= >>> >>> john burton >>> Bach 50B3 >>> Bass Trombone, Charleston NeoPhonic Orchestra >>> South Charleston, West Virginia >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: owner-TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu [mailto:owner-TROMBONE- >>>> L@server5.samford.edu] On Behalf Of Earl Needham >>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 12:38 PM >>>> To: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu >>>> Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3456] RE: Memorable Melody >>>> >>>> At 09:46 AM 1/5/2005, John Burton wrote: >>>> >Could I nominate "Smoke, Smoke, Smoke that cigarette"?? >>>> > >>>> >Failing that, 'most anything by Commander Codey and His Lost Planet >>>> Airmen. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >I'm still in love with "Seventy Six Trombones"... Whistle that at >>>> work >>>> and >>>> >you'll soon have a whole roomful of folks whistling! Same with the >>>> >theme >>>> >from "Bridge Over the River Kwi" >>>> > >>>> >>>> But they're all over the 15-year limit imposed in the original >>>> message... >>>> >>>> BTW, I heard "Dark Town Strutters' Ball" a couple of weeks ago >>>> on >>>> my XM! >>>> >>>> Earl >>>> >>>> >>>> Earl Needham, KD5XB, Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk >>>> http://kd5xb-2.no-ip.info >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > From: Chris Tune Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 21:49:23 -0800 To: Craig Parmerlee Cc: Barry Green , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3477] Re: sound engineers, how to murder - kinda a lengthy diatribe but, heck! Great comments of the year (so far. . .) . . ."musical landfill". . . I really like that one! I hope you will allow me to reuse that one! Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Parmerlee" To: "Chris Tune" Cc: "Barry Green" ; Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [TROMBONE-L:3453] Re: sound engineers, how to murder - kinda a lengthy diatribe but, heck! >