Subject: TROMBONE-L digest 266 Date: Monday, January 3, 2005 12:01 AM From: Multiple recipients of list To: Multiple recipients of list TROMBONE-L Digest 266 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Haydn - was: Schubert by Howard Weiner 2) Yamaha 613 on Ebay by "Dean McCarty" 3) fake king? real king? willie colon? by DSlide13@aol.com 4) Re: fake king? real king? willie colon? by Eric & Candice Swanson From: Howard Weiner Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 14:17:09 +0100 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3425] Haydn - was: Schubert I forgot again: plain text, plain text, plain text... At 15:03 01.01.05 -0500, Raymond Horton wrote: >Thanks, Howard, very informative. > >Just how common, and where, were the larger basses in Eb and F? And what >was Haydn writing for in the _Creation_? That work, depending on the >edition one runs into, has low Ebs, (not in every edition, I don't >think) a "pedal" Bb and G's above the staff. The only instrument that >could play all of those pitches would be the (rare) bass in Eb. Did Haydn >have a particular instrument in mind, or was he just writing that wild >bass-line part for contrabassoon and bass trombone - regardless of the range? The larger basses were originally in D and, less frequently, in E. It was only after pitch standards changed during the 18th century that they became E-flat and F instruments. The bass in D was fairly common in the 17th century. In the 18th century it suffered from the general decline of the trombones, but was still around in some places (Leipzig and Salzburg, for example). The F bass came into its own in the 19th century when the military bands were reformed (I recently read the date 1816 for Prussia): the "Harmoniemusik" of the 18th century (bands of 2 oboes, 2 clarinets, 2 horns, 2 bassoons, and sometimes a serpent) fell out of favor and military bands more similar to those of today came into being, with the F-bass trombone on the bottom. -- During the first half of the 19th century, when most orchestras did not have a permanent trombone section, because trombones were still only infrequently required, military trombonists were often called in when needed to play the trombone parts. I don't know what Haydn was thinking when he wrote that part, but I'm pretty sure that the Viennese trombone players of the time only had B-flat instruments. The third trombone part as it appears in the original edition of 1800 has a low E-flat, three DÕs, two CÕs and a pedal B-flat. (The Breitkopf & HŠrtel edition pretty much reflects the first edition; the C.F. Peters edition has been simplified.) The manuscript third trombone part of the first performance adds to these two low DÕs, a C, and a pedal B-flat. (Published several years ago by Oxford University Press in an edition by A. Peter Brown.) It's true that an E-flat bass trombone can play all these notes, yet I've found evidence that this instrument was not used in Vienna in the 18th century, and that the Viennese trombonists were versed in playing the low falset tones on the B-flat trombone. I've played the third part on a tenor sackbut with a somewhat larger mouthpiece, and it worked great. Howard -- Howard Weiner weiner@privat.toplink.de http://www.odilia.ch/howard-weiner If vegetarians eat only vegetables, what do humanitarians eat? From: Dean McCarty Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 13:19:32 -0600 To: Trombone-L Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3426] Yamaha 613 on Ebay I just saw this on Ebay. Thought that it may interest some of you. I actually know who is selling this. The horn is in good shape and plays well. Here's the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16216&item=3772411820&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW Dean McCarty <>< freelance trombonist, Houston area Director of Bands, Kelly High School - Beaumont, Tx. Director of Instrumental Ministries, FBC - Vidor, Tx. bassbone@gt.rr.com (409) 681-9976 ............................................................ : An attachment to this post has been stripped by: : : plaintext.pl : : Original idea by Phillip Porch (ppp@theporch.com) : : Written by Stephen Modena, AB4EL (shimshon@theporch.com) : : Modifications by Mearl Danner, (jmdanner@samford.edu) : : All rights reserved. : ............................................................ From: Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 23:20:13 -0500 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3427] fake king? real king? willie colon? A student of mine picked up a King 4B with some weird characteristics. Here are his remarks. Anyone have any ideas??? "The other weird thing about the horn is Sonorous is misspelled as Sonoris. I didn't notice that until I got home (counterfeit 4B? But everything else looks like a 4B The complete inscription is: King 4B Sonoris Made By H.N. WHITE CO INSTRUMENTS USA El Malote Bx. N.Y. The serial numbers are difficult to read but the number by the bell connector looks like either 691671 or (upside down) 149169. The slide says either 348 or 848 and the valve says 446." From: Eric & Candice Swanson Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 23:53:29 -0600 To: Cc: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:3428] Re: fake king? real king? willie colon? DSlide13@aol.com wrote: >A student of mine picked up a King 4B with some weird characteristics. Here are his remarks. Anyone have any ideas??? > >"The other weird thing about the horn is Sonorous is misspelled > >as Sonoris. I didn't notice that until I got home (counterfeit 4B? But > >everything else looks like a 4B > >The complete inscription is: > >King > >4B > >Sonoris > >Made By > >H.N. WHITE CO > >INSTRUMENTS > >USA > >El Malote > >Bx. N.Y. > >The serial numbers are difficult to read but the number by the bell connector looks like either 691671 or (upside down) 149169. The slide says either 348 or 848 and the valve says 446." > > > > That is wierd. It should say "Cleveland, Ohio" Eric