Subject: TROMBONE-L digest 148 Date: Saturday, August 28, 2004 12:01 AM From: Multiple recipients of list To: Multiple recipients of list TROMBONE-L Digest 148 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Focal Dystonia by "Richardson, Timothy Mr. DAC 417 BSB DPW - ERMD" 2) Re: Kenton trombones (was Conn 24H) by jimandcat@juno.com 3) Re: Focal Dystonia by "Chris Tune" 4) RE: Focal Dystonia by "Richardson, Timothy Mr. DAC 417 BSB DPW - ERMD" 5) Re: Fwd: Re: Re: focal dystonia by "David Guion" 6) Miles "Mity" Johnson by "Douglas A. Rowe" 7) Re: Focal Dystonia by sabutin 8) Re: Focal Dystonia by "Steve Gamble" 9) Re: Focal Dystonia by "Paul Kemp" 10) Looking for a challenge by "Richard E. Onofrey, Jr." 11) RE: Looking for a challenge by "Steve Gamble" 12) Re: Focal Dystonia by Roger Hecht 13) Re: Looking for a challenge by Stephen Troy 14) Re: Focal Dystonia by BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com 15) Re: Looking for a challenge by sabutin 16) Re: Looking for a challenge by BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com 17) RE: Looking for a challenge by "Erik Tkal" 18) Re: Looking for a challenge by Raymond Horton 19) Competition for Brass Performers by Retired Prof 55 20) Re: Focal Dystonia by James Scott 21) Re: Focal Dystonia by Robert Sanders 22) RE: Looking for a challenge by Eric & Candice Swanson 23) Sam's focal dystonia response by alex iles 24) Re: Looking for a challenge by Earl Needham 25) Re: Looking for a challenge by "Chris Tune" 26) Re: Focal Dystonia by "Chris Tune" 27) (no subject) by LarryL595@aol.com 28) RE: Sam's focal dystonia response by "Bob Koester" 29) Re: Focal Dystonia by James Scott 30) Re: Focal Dystonia by Robert Sanders 31) Re: Looking for a challenge by "Frank Darmiento" 32) Re: Looking for a challenge by John Monroe 33) Re: Focal Dystonia by sabutin 34) Speaking Of Valved Low Brass Instruments? (was Looking For A Challenge) by Galen Zinn 35) Re: Speaking Of Valved Low Brass Instruments? (was Looking For A Challenge) by James Scott 36) Re: Speaking Of Valved Low Brass Instruments? (was Looking For A Challenge) by Raymond Horton From: "Richardson, Timothy Mr. DAC 417 BSB DPW - ERMD" Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 07:44:45 +0200 To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1852] Focal Dystonia I don't know enough about this ailment to venture an opinion. I'm counting my blessings, I guess. As far as I know I don't get Valsalva, either. Except maybe after Adrian's beans. Just a suggestion, though. Read a book called "Osler's Web." It's not about FD at all, it is about chronic fatigue syndrome. There would seem to be some similarities. It's another illness/syndrome/ailment with no clear cause or cure, devastating impact on the person affected, some controversy in the medical community over whether it exists at all, some doctors who appear to overdiagnose it, many many snake oil types getting rich on quack "cures," etc. The book traces the history of it, including an apparent outbreak in the Baltimore Symphony. Pretty interesting stuff. (I haven't followed CFS since reading the book, fortunately I don't have that either. Likely there has been some progress made. Or not, who knows. Life has problems for which there are no solutions.) -----Original Message----- From: Eric Edwards [mailto:bonearzt@cox.net] Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 19:01 To: trombone-l@listproc.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1848] [Fwd: Re- focal distonia] I have a friend at UNT that has worked through FD with guidance from Jan Kagarice. He has had incredible success working with Mrs.Kagarice. I would suggest talking with her and finding a solution to deal with this affliction. Best of luck!! Eric From: jimandcat@juno.com Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 00:20:16 -0700 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1853] Re: Kenton trombones (was Conn 24H) Great post Denny. I am a bass trombonist so will only talk about that. I played a Conn 72H for years, had a second valve G added by Minick--only made it better. Stupidly sold it to a student (great player though). It was stolen when I was in San Francisco, and my teacher (Mitchell Ross) loaned me his Reynolds with the long linkage for the E valve at the end of the F tuning slide. At first I thought, "What a piece of...", but as I played it and played it and played it, the darn thing was a great instrument. My Conn was recovered 6 months later from a pawn shop so I gave the Reynolds back, reluctantly. I tried the Holtons, they didn't work for me. I sounded better on Conns and Bachs. But I heard some great players make them sing. I liked the bells and the slides, never liked the valves and the wrap. But, like I said, I heard lots of players make great music with them. Suter among them, I'm pretty sure I heard the Kenton band live when he tooted with them in the sixties. Thanks for that post, brought back a lot of memories of those times. Dick Shearer was one of the loudest players I have ever heard. But he usually had a good point to make. I heard the Kenton band live when "Here's That Rainy Day" was one of their standards. Indescribable trombone choir sound with Shearer on the lead. The recordings only come a little close to the live event. Even people who were not trombone enthusiasts got shivers listening to that. Of course the high trumpet topping it off was the icing on the cake. What a fantastic orchestral big band that was. All about the enjoyment and thrill of sound. At any dynamic. Jim Prindle ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From: "Chris Tune" Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 00:44:46 -0700 To: , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1854] Re: Focal Dystonia It's interesting that we tend to believe that a disease must not be pycho-somatic or "in the mind" if it is to be "real". I tend to believe that the activity of the mind is the MOST important aspect of anything. Perception is very important but is also not the only activity of the brain and CNS (central nervous system). You could say that a severe enough nervous system malfunction would result in your heart stopping. So there you go. DIRECT CONNECTION: MIND/BODY. If an involuntary muscular action is occurring and it is debilitating in some way, then we've got a problem! Question is (as others have mentioned) how to proceed. We really ought to be advanced enough now not to ascribe a stigma to any disease which might have EITHER body or mind locus. Either way the disease is very real. Just ask Frank Rosolino if depression is real. . .Oh! That's right we can't! We tend to just ascribe these diseases to one big heap ("crazy"). That is certainly not the case. As we find out more and more about the mind we realize that it, too is subject to imbalances (please let's not get too into balance. . .we all want balance, we just need concrete methodology to get there) or diseases which have very physical aspects. These APPEAR, however, to be mental. We now know that many schiophrenics can lead relatively normal lives IF they stay on medication. . .and that's a big if, since they may try to go it alone without the uncomfortable meds. I think with the tendency today to be overloaded with everything--information, tasks, stuff, causes, food etc. we don't always feed ourselves enough nutrients for the soul. Could be we will see more of these hard-to-pin-down diseases. Chris Tune ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richardson, Timothy Mr. DAC 417 BSB DPW - ERMD" To: Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 10:44 PM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1852] Focal Dystonia >I don't know enough about this ailment to venture an opinion. I'm counting > my blessings, I guess. As far as I know I don't get Valsalva, either. > Except maybe after Adrian's beans. > > Just a suggestion, though. Read a book called "Osler's Web." It's not > about FD at all, it is about chronic fatigue syndrome. There would seem > to > be some similarities. It's another illness/syndrome/ailment with no clear > cause or cure, devastating impact on the person affected, some controversy > in the medical community over whether it exists at all, some doctors who > appear to overdiagnose it, many many snake oil types getting rich on quack > "cures," etc. The book traces the history of it, including an apparent > outbreak in the Baltimore Symphony. Pretty interesting stuff. (I haven't > followed CFS since reading the book, fortunately I don't have that either. > Likely there has been some progress made. Or not, who knows. Life has > problems for which there are no solutions.) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Edwards [mailto:bonearzt@cox.net] > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 19:01 > To: trombone-l@listproc.samford.edu > Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1848] [Fwd: Re- focal distonia] > > > I have a friend at UNT that has worked through FD with guidance from Jan > Kagarice. > He has had incredible success working with Mrs.Kagarice. > I would suggest talking with her and finding a solution to deal with this > affliction. > > Best of luck!! > > Eric > > From: "Richardson, Timothy Mr. DAC 417 BSB DPW - ERMD" Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:54:58 +0200 To: Chris Tune , trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1855] RE: Focal Dystonia Very good points, and nothing here I would disagree with. What I notice is that there can be a moralistic response to a certain class of illnesses. Basically it is, "you're lazy, if you'd just get off your butt and work hard you wouldn't have that problem." And that may be true for some people. But for a lot of people, physically and/or mentally ill included, that (not-well-meaning) advice is worthless. And if the cure doesn't work, blame the patient for not doing it right. Chronic fatigue syndrome is classic. The immediate presumption by most of the public is these sufferers are just trying to get away with something, sit home on welfare and watch TV while the rest of us work hard, all they need is a kick in the butt. Early medical investigation didn't find a causal agent, and psychiatric intervention didn't help. Now I guess there's epidemiological evidence suggesting some kind of retrovirus or prion involvement. Anyway, for the blaming world view to remain internally consistent, it is necessary to deny that the disease exists. FD, CFS, ADHD, any number of examples exist. Mind/body? sure. But as we find more and more of it is body, we find more ways to really help people. Want some counseling for your diabetes? or some insulin? What about your struggle with the meaningless of existence? And what, then, about FD? If we find a neurological cause, there's no guarantee there's a cure, either from mainstream medicine or the vast array of alternative therapies out there. But we may find a way to tell real FD from something else, and we may find some treatments that are contra-indicated. (E.g., with chronic fatigue syndrome, exercise makes it dramatically worse. That can be diagnostic. Well meaning advice for general health, like eat well, drink fluids, get plenty of exercise, is not going to work. ) With FD, will timing practice make it better? Maybe yes, maybe no. And finally, there is an element of magic in relying on the famous expert who can cure when every body else can't. If Jan Kagarice has had good success, great, probably on to something. If Jan and only Jan can cure this stuff, then the BS detectors should start going off. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Tune [mailto:crtune@adelphia.net] Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 09:45 To: timothy.a.richardson@us.army.mil; trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Subject: Re: [TROMBONE-L:1852] Focal Dystonia It's interesting that we tend to believe that a disease must not be pycho-somatic or "in the mind" if it is to be "real". I tend to believe that the activity of the mind is the MOST important aspect of anything. Perception is very important but is also not the only activity of the brain and CNS (central nervous system). You could say that a severe enough nervous system malfunction would result in your heart stopping. So there you go. DIRECT CONNECTION: MIND/BODY. If an involuntary muscular action is occurring and it is debilitating in some way, then we've got a problem! Question is (as others have mentioned) how to proceed. We really ought to be advanced enough now not to ascribe a stigma to any disease which might have EITHER body or mind locus. Either way the disease is very real. Just ask Frank Rosolino if depression is real. . .Oh! That's right we can't! We tend to just ascribe these diseases to one big heap ("crazy"). That is certainly not the case. As we find out more and more about the mind we realize that it, too is subject to imbalances (please let's not get too into balance. . .we all want balance, we just need concrete methodology to get there) or diseases which have very physical aspects. These APPEAR, however, to be mental. We now know that many schiophrenics can lead relatively normal lives IF they stay on medication. . .and that's a big if, since they may try to go it alone without the uncomfortable meds. I think with the tendency today to be overloaded with everything--information, tasks, stuff, causes, food etc. we don't always feed ourselves enough nutrients for the soul. Could be we will see more of these hard-to-pin-down diseases. Chris Tune ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richardson, Timothy Mr. DAC 417 BSB DPW - ERMD" To: Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 10:44 PM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1852] Focal Dystonia >I don't know enough about this ailment to venture an opinion. I'm counting > my blessings, I guess. As far as I know I don't get Valsalva, either. > Except maybe after Adrian's beans. > > Just a suggestion, though. Read a book called "Osler's Web." It's not > about FD at all, it is about chronic fatigue syndrome. There would seem > to > be some similarities. It's another illness/syndrome/ailment with no clear > cause or cure, devastating impact on the person affected, some controversy > in the medical community over whether it exists at all, some doctors who > appear to overdiagnose it, many many snake oil types getting rich on quack > "cures," etc. The book traces the history of it, including an apparent > outbreak in the Baltimore Symphony. Pretty interesting stuff. (I haven't > followed CFS since reading the book, fortunately I don't have that either. > Likely there has been some progress made. Or not, who knows. Life has > problems for which there are no solutions.) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Edwards [mailto:bonearzt@cox.net] > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 19:01 > To: trombone-l@listproc.samford.edu > Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1848] [Fwd: Re- focal distonia] > > > I have a friend at UNT that has worked through FD with guidance from Jan > Kagarice. > He has had incredible success working with Mrs.Kagarice. > I would suggest talking with her and finding a solution to deal with this > affliction. > > Best of luck!! > > Eric > > From: "David Guion" Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 05:44:40 -0700 To: , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1856] Re: Fwd: Re: Re: focal dystonia ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: sabutin Reply-To: sabutin@mindspring.com Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:40:07 -0400 > >I would THOROUGHLY clean out my system. Drugs, alcohol, sugar, >tobacco, overeating, overweight, lack of exercise, sluggish >elimination...out the window. > >Immediately. > >If nothing came of those approaches, after a few months or so I would >look into acupuncture with the heaviest acupuncturist I could find. Let me see if I have this straight: stop overeating etc. and then in a few months seek out an acupuncturist who hasn't! Sweet! LOL -- *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* David Guion Founder, Piedmont Brass Band Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? david@trombone.org *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* -- From: "Douglas A. Rowe" Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:39:55 -0500 To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1857] Miles "Mity" Johnson Trombone Listers, I don't know how many of you had the opportunity to meet or play under Miles "Mity"Johnson, but I know that he was well known through out the wind ensemble/band world. I personally did not have the opportunity to play under him, but between my time at St. Olaf and the with the groups I play in now I have heard nothing but praise for him as a person and musician. If you did not know, Miles has suffered with Alzheimers disease for the past 6 years or so. This message came from Dr. Timothy Mahr, current director of the St. Olaf Band, yesterday. If folks are in the Minneapolis/St. Paul/Northfield and knew Miles, you may want to try to make it down for this event. >"The Lord called Miles Johnson home today. Mity passed away around >3:30 pm with Myrna and Sarah [Mile's wife and daughter] holding his >hands. Sarah related that they were sitting in the quiet and she >mentioned to Myrna that they should put some music on, so "Elsa's >Procession to the Cathedral" peacefully began to fill the room. When >the climactic chords arrived at the very end of the piece, Mity took >his last big breath and passed away. He always had great timing. >Again, the family has announced that "A Celebration of Life" will be >held this Sunday, August 29, in Boe Chapel [St. Olaf College campus] at >3:00 p.m. Following the service will be a reception for all in the >King's Room complex of Buntrock Commons." -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Douglas Rowe * * Systems Specialist * * Classical 89.3 WCAL/St. Olaf College * * 1520 St. Olaf Avenue * * Northfield, MN 55057 * * Telephone: 612-798-8617 * * Fax: 612-798-8614 * * E-mail: rowed@stolaf.edu * * http://www.wcal.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From: sabutin Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:59:35 -0400 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1858] Re: Focal Dystonia >It's interesting that we tend to believe that a disease must not be >pycho-somatic or "in the mind" if it is to be "real". I tend to >believe that the activity of the mind is the MOST important aspect >of anything. Perception is very important but is also not the only >activity of the brain and CNS (central nervous system). You could >say that a severe enough nervous system malfunction would result in >your heart stopping. So there you go. DIRECT CONNECTION: >MIND/BODY. =============================== Further: MIND/BODY/EMOTIONS Emotion is the necessary third note of the triad, one that is SO often mislabeled as "mind" in western thought. "He's mentally ill", they say, when indeed the truth of the matter is that his mind is not working well because his EMOTIONS are in total disarray. And all THREE systems are interconnected. Ever been in pain and tried to think? Tried to be happy? Ever notice that you get physically ill most often when your life isn't going well, when you are unhappy? Ever reach a dead end in trying to figure something out mentally...a computer problem, say, or a way to make and distribute enough money to take care of financial considerations...and find that you are getting angry or sad about totally unrelated things? The big circle. ALL connected. And if you could really see the sequence of events that brought about many of these chop breakdowns that are being called focal dystonia in certain circles...you would find that they BEGAN as dissatisfaction in an artistic or musical sense, As EMOTIONAL problems. I personally have never seen ANYONE whose real chop difficulties began after they had reached a fairly high level of achievement on the instrument...short of injury, old age, extended lack of time on the instrument or dental problems...who was happy with the musical scene in which they lived most of the time. Always someone with a lot of complaints. either about their own playing, their position in the scene or the scene itself. So it goes. Emotionally bothered, unable to successfully apply mental solutions to the problem... Chop problems. ========================================================== > >If an involuntary muscular action is occurring and it is >debilitating in some way, then we've got a problem! Question is (as >others have mentioned) how to proceed. > >We really ought to be advanced enough now not to ascribe a stigma to >any disease which might have EITHER body or mind locus. Either way >the disease is very real. Just ask Frank Rosolino if depression is >real. . .Oh! That's right we can't! We tend to just ascribe these >diseases to one big heap ("crazy"). That is certainly not the case. > >As we find out more and more about the mind we realize that it, too >is subject to imbalances (please let's not get too into balance. . >.we all want balance, we just need concrete methodology to get >there) or diseases which have very physical aspects. These >APPEAR, however, to be mental. We now know that many schiophrenics >can lead relatively normal lives IF they stay on medication. . .and >that's a big if, since they may try to go it alone without the >uncomfortable meds. > >I think with the tendency today to be overloaded with >everything--information, tasks, stuff, causes, food etc. we don't >always feed ourselves enough nutrients for the soul. Could be we >will see more of these hard-to-pin-down diseases. > Chris Tune Yup. More attention spent on the emotions, on the soul, would do wonders. In the whole society... Later... S. -- Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC. Visit us on the web at and/or , email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by appointment only. PLEASE VISIT THE OPEN HORN, A WEB FORUM Lots of interesting discussions going on every day. An introduction to the site is available at or just come on over check it out at From: "Steve Gamble" Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:01:08 -0700 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1859] Re: Focal Dystonia ... the necessary third note of the triad,... Now hold on a minute. Not only does everybody KNOW that, if you're breathing, you're a racist, everybody KNOWS that there are only two notes in a triad...count 'em...0 1 2. Steve Gamble From: "Paul Kemp" Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:06:19 -0400 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1860] Re: Focal Dystonia Sam's words of wisdom are like gold indeed. I'd like to add something else. There are plenty of stories out there about musicians who have very serious facial injuries. Bud Herseth was in a bad car crash where the steering wheel knocked out his teeth in the 1960's. Fortunately, the week before, his dentist had recommended that they do a plaster mold of his teeth, and he consented. He came back stronger than ever, and from what I understand, did a mouthpiece change to help things. Jay Friedman is a horse trainer when he's not playing principal trombone with the Chicago Symphony. He had a freak accident when a horse kicked him in the mouth. He's still playing in the orchestra, this year makes 40 years with probably the highest profile orchestral brass section IN THE WORLD. I was talking to Dave Steinmeyer this week and he's had some extraordinary problems in the past due to dental problems, but he's 61 now and still playing as strong as he ever did. This is a bit off the subject of focal dystonia, but it really fits right in with what we're talking about. There are plenty of world class players out there who have had to start completely over on all instruments. However, I believe that there is are several underlying factors that brought these people back. 1) They couldn't see themselves doing anything else. 2) They started over with what they could do. 3) They kept working until they were back to the level that they had previously attained, or better. There's no substituting great fundamentals in ANYTHING, because if you really have an innate understanding of the fundamentals, then if something small or if something big goes wrong with your game, and playing the trombone or any other musical instrument is a game, a sport, if you will, you will know exactly what is required in order to fix it. That is the one thing that makes the truly great players great in my opinion. This all comes back to the discussions that we've had in the past on equipment, and particularly in the orchestral world, what has happened over the past 30 years or so is that the equipment has gotten bigger and heavier, and bigger, heavier equipment takes more strength to play. It's one thing when you're 18---it's another thing when your 50+. The smart players out there are always trying to refine that balance that Sam keeps talking about. They revisit the fundamentals daily, they try to do them with more and more efficiency, and they keep refining their concept. The people that DON'T do that---they're in for a shortened career. What's really amazing to me is that musicians far outlast present day athletes. Yes, injuries can set you back, but your will to come back and perform, at whatever game you play, will keep you in the game AT SOME LEVEL. However, there's no shortcuts--fundamentals, and daily maintenance, and working smart. You only have one body----learn to use it wisely. Paul Kemp Chattanooga Symphony "There is nothing like music...to fill the moment with substance." Goethe ----- Original Message ----- From: "sabutin" To: Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 10:59 AM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1858] Re: Focal Dystonia > >It's interesting that we tend to believe that a disease must not be > >pycho-somatic or "in the mind" if it is to be "real". I tend to > >believe that the activity of the mind is the MOST important aspect > >of anything. Perception is very important but is also not the only > >activity of the brain and CNS (central nervous system). You could > >say that a severe enough nervous system malfunction would result in > >your heart stopping. So there you go. DIRECT CONNECTION: > >MIND/BODY. > > > =============================== > > Further: > > MIND/BODY/EMOTIONS > > Emotion is the necessary third note of the triad, one that is SO > often mislabeled as "mind" in western thought. > > "He's mentally ill", they say, when indeed the truth of the matter is > that his mind is not working well because his EMOTIONS are in total > disarray. > > And all THREE systems are interconnected. > > Ever been in pain and tried to think? > > Tried to be happy? > > Ever notice that you get physically ill most often when your life > isn't going well, when you are unhappy? > > Ever reach a dead end in trying to figure something out mentally...a > computer problem, say, or a way to make and distribute enough money > to take care of financial considerations...and find that you are > getting angry or sad about totally unrelated things? > > The big circle. > > ALL connected. > > And if you could really see the sequence of events that brought about > many of these chop breakdowns that are being called focal dystonia in > certain circles...you would find that they BEGAN as dissatisfaction > in an artistic or musical sense, > > As EMOTIONAL problems. > > I personally have never seen ANYONE whose real chop difficulties > began after they had reached a fairly high level of achievement on > the instrument...short of injury, old age, extended lack of time on > the instrument or dental problems...who was happy with the musical > scene in which they lived most of the time. > > Always someone with a lot of complaints. either about their own > playing, their position in the scene or the scene itself. > > So it goes. > > Emotionally bothered, unable to successfully apply mental solutions > to the problem... > > Chop problems. > > ========================================================== > > > >If an involuntary muscular action is occurring and it is > >debilitating in some way, then we've got a problem! Question is (as > >others have mentioned) how to proceed. > > > >We really ought to be advanced enough now not to ascribe a stigma to > >any disease which might have EITHER body or mind locus. Either way > >the disease is very real. Just ask Frank Rosolino if depression is > >real. . .Oh! That's right we can't! We tend to just ascribe these > >diseases to one big heap ("crazy"). That is certainly not the case. > > > >As we find out more and more about the mind we realize that it, too > >is subject to imbalances (please let's not get too into balance. . > >.we all want balance, we just need concrete methodology to get > >there) or diseases which have very physical aspects. These > >APPEAR, however, to be mental. We now know that many schiophrenics > >can lead relatively normal lives IF they stay on medication. . .and > >that's a big if, since they may try to go it alone without the > >uncomfortable meds. > > > >I think with the tendency today to be overloaded with > >everything--information, tasks, stuff, causes, food etc. we don't > >always feed ourselves enough nutrients for the soul. Could be we > >will see more of these hard-to-pin-down diseases. > > > Chris Tune > > Yup. > > More attention spent on the emotions, on the soul, would do wonders. > > In the whole society... > > Later... > > S. > -- > Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of > "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in > NYC. Visit us on the web at and/or > , email us at , > or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by > appointment only. > > PLEASE VISIT THE OPEN HORN, A WEB FORUM > Lots of interesting discussions going on every day. > An introduction to the site is available at > > or just come on over check it out at > > From: "Richard E. Onofrey, Jr." Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:23:24 -0400 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1861] Looking for a challenge Hello Listers, At the risk of getting flamed, I'm looking for a challenge. I want to teach myself to play a valved instrument (I'm a self-taught trombone player of moderate skill). Now, I know that the only worthwhile instrument is a trombone -- and the only worthwhile valves are those on a bass trombone (or at least an F-trigger). However, I'm still thinking about purchasing a valve trombone. However, I don't want to buy a "traditional" valve trombone. I'm looking more along the lines of a marching trombone, flugabone or trombonium. I would appreciate feedback from anyone who plays/has played these types of instruments, both positive and negative. Also, if anyone is looking to sell an instrument in decent shape, I'd consider that as well. (Ducking for cover), Rick Onofrey Amateur trombonist and (apparently) professional masochist! From: "Steve Gamble" Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:33:04 -0700 To: , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1862] RE: Looking for a challenge Hello Rick, I haven't played everything out there. But of the instruments that you are interested in, the only one that was any good that I have played was the instrument made by Conn that folks referred to as a trombonium. I think Conn still called it a valve trombone, though. It looks kind of like a scrawny baritone with an 8H bell. It's a decent horn. Steve Gamble, Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 (520) 792-9155 x118 (520) 792-9314 fax (520) 991-7056 cel sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-TROMBONE-L@listproc.samford.edu [mailto:owner-TROMBONE-L@listproc.samford.edu] On Behalf Of Richard E. Onofrey, Jr. Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 10:23 AM To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1861] Looking for a challenge Hello Listers, At the risk of getting flamed, I'm looking for a challenge. I want to teach myself to play a valved instrument (I'm a self-taught trombone player of moderate skill). Now, I know that the only worthwhile instrument is a trombone -- and the only worthwhile valves are those on a bass trombone (or at least an F-trigger). However, I'm still thinking about purchasing a valve trombone. However, I don't want to buy a "traditional" valve trombone. I'm looking more along the lines of a marching trombone, flugabone or trombonium. I would appreciate feedback from anyone who plays/has played these types of instruments, both positive and negative. Also, if anyone is looking to sell an instrument in decent shape, I'd consider that as well. (Ducking for cover), Rick Onofrey Amateur trombonist and (apparently) professional masochist! From: Roger Hecht Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:35:34 -0400 To: trbnplyr@comcast.net, Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1863] Re: Focal Dystonia > What's really amazing to me is that musicians far outlast present day >athletes. Yes, injuries can set you back, but your will to come back and >perform, at whatever game you play, will keep you in the game AT SOME LEVEL. >However, there's no shortcuts--fundamentals, and daily maintenance, and >working smart. You only have one body----learn to use it wisely. > >Paul Kemp >Chattanooga Symphony > Maybe not that amazing, though it's possible I don't understand how the body works in sports and in music. But I was a jock until I was 50, and I can tell you this. There is certainly wear and tear on a musician's body. We have plenty of evidence of that. Most of it comes from the manipulation of an instrument by the body, although some may come from tension. With most sports, there is another element, that of competitors beating on you, and the environment itself (the ground, a wall, a ball) beating on you. Then there are the inadvertent movements that create pulls, falls, etc. I've had plenty of all of them, and they take their toll. Roger Hecht From: Stephen Troy Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:51:37 -0400 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1864] Re: Looking for a challenge At 01:23 PM 08/27/2004 -0400, Richard E. Onofrey, Jr. wrote: >Hello Listers, > >However, I don't want to buy a "traditional" valve trombone. I'm >looking more along the lines of a marching trombone, flugabone or >trombonium. I would appreciate feedback from anyone who plays/has >played these types of instruments, both positive and negative. Also, if >anyone is looking to sell an instrument in decent shape, I'd consider >that as well. > >Rick Onofrey Any reason you excluded the euphonium from your list? It's a much more useful instrument (unless you plan on doing the marching band circuit) and generally much better in tune than the god-awful things you mentioned. Steve Troy From: BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:53:22 EDT To: sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org, TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1865] Re: Focal Dystonia Steve, this is getting close to spiritual math. beldon wade From: sabutin Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:53:54 -0400 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1866] Re: Looking for a challenge A good used Conn 5H (6H with a valve section) is the choice of every good valve trombonist I know, and when I'm not trying to receate Juan Tizol's style, that what I use myself. Open (relatively), in tune (relatively), good sounding (it's ALL "relative". I guess...) Have fun... S. >Hello Listers, > >At the risk of getting flamed, I'm looking for a challenge. I want to >teach myself to play a valved instrument (I'm a self-taught trombone >player of moderate skill). Now, I know that the only worthwhile >instrument is a trombone -- and the only worthwhile valves are those on >a bass trombone (or at least an F-trigger). However, I'm still thinking >about purchasing a valve trombone. > >However, I don't want to buy a "traditional" valve trombone. I'm >looking more along the lines of a marching trombone, flugabone or >trombonium. I would appreciate feedback from anyone who plays/has >played these types of instruments, both positive and negative. Also, if >anyone is looking to sell an instrument in decent shape, I'd consider >that as well. > >(Ducking for cover), > >Rick Onofrey >Amateur trombonist and (apparently) professional masochist! -- Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC. Visit us on the web at and/or , email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by appointment only. PLEASE VISIT THE OPEN HORN, A WEB FORUM Lots of interesting discussions going on every day. An introduction to the site is available at or just come on over check it out at From: BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:57:03 EDT To: reonofreyj@comcast.net, trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1867] Re: Looking for a challenge Rick, Look for an old Olds with the three valve alternative and the standard slide. Sounds like that might be right down your turnpike. beldon wade From: "Erik Tkal" Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:07:43 -0400 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1868] RE: Looking for a challenge Richard E. Onofrey, Jr. wrote: > > At the risk of getting flamed, I'm looking for a challenge. I want to > teach myself to play a valved instrument (I'm a self-taught trombone > player of moderate skill). Now, I know that the only worthwhile > instrument is a trombone -- and the only worthwhile valves are those on > a bass trombone (or at least an F-trigger). However, I'm still thinking > about purchasing a valve trombone. > > However, I don't want to buy a "traditional" valve trombone. I'm > looking more along the lines of a marching trombone, flugabone or > trombonium. I would appreciate feedback from anyone who plays/has > played these types of instruments, both positive and negative. Also, if > anyone is looking to sell an instrument in decent shape, I'd consider > that as well. > > (Ducking for cover), > ----------------------------------- Richard, No need to duck for cover. In addition to the valve trombones you might consider a baritone or euphonium. Or a trumpet or cornet or fleugelhorn. Or even french horn. I find I can play a trumpet reasonably well, but I've had a lot of problem with french horn, that's proven to be much more of a challenge. I think my primary problem there is that I have close to perfect pitch, and when I hear that F below middle C I start thinking the 5th of the Bb chord and automatically place my fingerings from that, incorrectly. Not to dissuade you from the trombone family of valved instruments, but none of them really do anything your slide trombone cannot (in general circumstances). However, if you play in chamber groups or such, the ability to cover a different part can be invaluable. Erik Tkal From: Raymond Horton Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:37:14 -0400 To: reonofreyj@comcast.net Cc: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1869] Re: Looking for a challenge Hi Richard, I'm still trying to determine what this instrument is worth. I'm trying to sell it for the mom of a former student of mine who passed away a number of years ago. The current model, the Olds NO21, lists for $1,600, I've seen it discounted new for about $1,100 My guess is that she would take $500 for this one. This is a short model marching valve trombone. You can see a picture of the same model here: http://www.brass-business.net/db/brass/uid=10910134201164&var=lng=en&var=pr=Tenor%20Trombone%20%20Bb%20Marching%20-%20epoxy%20lacquer%20body%20F.E.%20OLDS&template=produit.html I will put this on Ebay next week if I don't sell it here soon. FOR SALE OLDS MARCHING TROMBONE "F. E. Olds & Sons / Fullerton Calif" serial # a379xx - mid 1970s. Played a couple of years, then stored in case. Very good condition - one very small dent on side of bell, some scratches and worn places in lacquer. The valves work quite well, but the 1st and 2nd valves clank a bit - it could probably use new corks and pads. Very good intonation (Excellent for an instrument of this type) .520 bore, small shank, 8" bell. Vinyl covered wood case. Includes music lyre. $500 or best acceptable offer. Add $25 for your choice of new 6¸ AL , 7C or 12C mouthpiece. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra ------------ Richard E. Onofrey, Jr. wrote: >Hello Listers, > >At the risk of getting flamed, I'm looking for a challenge. I want to >teach myself to play a valved instrument (I'm a self-taught trombone >player of moderate skill). Now, I know that the only worthwhile >instrument is a trombone -- and the only worthwhile valves are those on >a bass trombone (or at least an F-trigger). However, I'm still thinking >about purchasing a valve trombone. > >However, I don't want to buy a "traditional" valve trombone. I'm >looking more along the lines of a marching trombone, flugabone or >trombonium. I would appreciate feedback from anyone who plays/has >played these types of instruments, both positive and negative. Also, if >anyone is looking to sell an instrument in decent shape, I'd consider >that as well. > >(Ducking for cover), > >Rick Onofrey >Amateur trombonist and (apparently) professional masochist! > > > > From: Retired Prof 55 Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:56:30 -0400 To: "TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU" Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1870] Competition for Brass Performers November 1, 2004 is the deadline for receipt of entries in the Co-op Press competition for brass performers for their artistic interpretation of the music of composer, Sy Brandon as exemplified in a digital recording of one of the selected competition pieces. A panel of judges will award prizes of $500, $300, and $200 to the first, second and third place winners respectively. The works for this competition that involve trombone are "Sonata" for trombone or euphonium and piano, "Fantasia" for bass trombone and piano, "Tapestries" for trombone quintet, "Toccata Marziale" for six trombones and percussion, "Appalachian Folk Suite" for brass trio, "Three Moods for Brass", which comes in two versions, one for brass quintet and the other for brass sextet, "Canzon" for brass quintet, "Movements" for brass quintet, and "Fanfares" for brass choir and timpani. For more information visit http://cooppress.hostrack.net/ or write Co-op Press P.O. Box 204 Wrightsville, PA 17368 USA From: James Scott Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:02:29 -0600 To: trbnplyr@comcast.net Cc: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1871] Re: Focal Dystonia Paul - Nice post, but I have to take exception to a couple of points. When this topic came up before, a lot of attention was placed on equipment size and you mentioned that in passing as well. Two of the players that you cite in your example of people that have overcome difficulties, however - Herseth and Friedman play very large equipment. Perhaps we've overstated the equipment connection in past discussions. At the same time, I would certainly agree that large mouthpieces, etc., are a bad idea for young developing players, but I still believe that most accomplished professionals are good judges of what works for them. In earlier discussions on this topic, while the blame often shifted to "too large and too loud", it always seemed to me that every time a specific player with the problem was mentioned by a list member, they would describe that player as a good musician who played normal sized equipment. While I'm no expert on tuba mouthpieces, etc., I do know that some of the tubists who have had their names associated with this disorder - Warren Deck, Toby Hanks, and Floyd Cooley for example- were not known for playing exceptionally large mouthpieces. They also seem, at least on the surface, to contradict Sam's point about chop problems happening only to people that were not in a good place professionally. I can't say for sure that all of these men were 100% happy in their professional lives, but they were certainly successful and well respected by their peers. I think that Sam's point about doctors "over diagnosing" focal distonia is very valid, but I would also suggest that perhaps players who lost their chops many years ago (James Chambers, the old solo horn of the NY Philharmonic comes to mind) were suffering from focal distonia, and the doctors didn't know what to call it. I would compare this to ADD in children - there were probably a lot of kids in the 50's and 60's that could have benefited from modern medical treatments of this problem, and there are probably a lot of kids that eat too much sugar and watch too many cartoons that are labeled ADD now by doctors that are happy to have an easy diagnosis. The emotional aspect of all of this is very hard to put into proper context. It becomes a "chicken and egg scenario" - did the person become depressed when their playing started to suffer, or did their playing suffer after they became depressed? No matter which is the case, their emotional state is a valid component of their recovery, and certainly one reason that some teachers have success with players suffering through chop problems is that they are able to help those players feel better emotionally. I guess that my take on all of this is that we're too quick to try to put all of this in a neat box - it's either "all in their heads", or "it's because they play that XXX mouthpiece", or it's "a disease with no possible cure". Probably all of those statements are correct in one particular case or another, and the player who encounters this problem is stuck trying to find out what is the best approach for them. I like Sam's idea about getting healthy when you encounter a problem, since that can't possibly do anything negative to your situation, and seems to knock out some possibilties of other health issues affecting the playing. Also, that would certainly help put the player in a better emotional state, which could certainly help recovery. Anyway, I guess my point that it has taken me so long to get to is that there is not a single cause or course of action in facing this problem. What this forum can do so well is to make people aware of therapies and teachers who have had success in dealing with problems - what it can't do as well is to diagnose what specific problem the player is dealing with, and what course of action they should take. Jim Scott Paul Kemp wrote: Sam's words of wisdom are like gold indeed. I'd like to add something else. There are plenty of stories out there about musicians who have very serious facial injuries. Bud Herseth was in a bad car crash where the steering wheel knocked out his teeth in the 1960's. Fortunately, the week before, his dentist had recommended that they do a plaster mold of his teeth, and he consented. He came back stronger than ever, and from what I understand, did a mouthpiece change to help things. Jay Friedman is a horse trainer when he's not playing principal trombone with the Chicago Symphony. He had a freak accident when a horse kicked him in the mouth. He's still playing in the orchestra, this year makes 40 years with probably the highest profile orchestral brass section IN THE WORLD. I was talking to Dave Steinmeyer this week and he's had some extraordinary problems in the past due to dental problems, but he's 61 now and still playing as strong as he ever did. This is a bit off the subject of focal dystonia, but it really fits right in with what we're talking about. There are plenty of world class players out there who have had to start completely over on all instruments. However, I believe that there is are several underlying factors that brought these people back. 1) They couldn't see themselves doing anything else. 2) They started over with what they could do. 3) They kept working until they were back to the level that they had previously attained, or better. There's no substituting great fundamentals in ANYTHING, because if you really have an innate understanding of the fundamentals, then if something small or if something big goes wrong with your game, and playing the trombone or any other musical instrument is a game, a sport, if you will, you will know exactly what is required in order to fix it. That is the one thing that makes the truly great players great in my opinion. This all comes back to the discussions that we've had in the past on equipment, and particularly in the orchestral world, what has happened over the past 30 years or so is that the equipment has gotten bigger and heavier, and bigger, heavier equipment takes more strength to play. It's one thing when you're 18---it's another thing when your 50+. The smart players out there are always trying to refine that balance that Sam keeps talking about. They revisit the fundamentals daily, they try to do them with more and more efficiency, and they keep refining their concept. The people that DON'T do that---they're in for a shortened career. What's really amazing to me is that musicians far outlast present day athletes. Yes, injuries can set you back, but your will to come back and perform, at whatever game you play, will keep you in the game AT SOME LEVEL. However, there's no shortcuts--fundamentals, and daily maintenance, and working smart. You only have one body----learn to use it wisely. Paul Kemp Chattanooga Symphony "There is nothing like music...to fill the moment with substance." Goethe ----- Original Message ----- From: "sabutin" To: Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 10:59 AM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1858] Re: Focal Dystonia It's interesting that we tend to believe that a disease must not be pycho-somatic or "in the mind" if it is to be "real". I tend to believe that the activity of the mind is the MOST important aspect of anything. Perception is very important but is also not the only activity of the brain and CNS (central nervous system). You could say that a severe enough nervous system malfunction would result in your heart stopping. So there you go. DIRECT CONNECTION: MIND/BODY. =============================== Further: MIND/BODY/EMOTIONS Emotion is the necessary third note of the triad, one that is SO often mislabeled as "mind" in western thought. "He's mentally ill", they say, when indeed the truth of the matter is that his mind is not working well because his EMOTIONS are in total disarray. And all THREE systems are interconnected. Ever been in pain and tried to think? Tried to be happy? Ever notice that you get physically ill most often when your life isn't going well, when you are unhappy? Ever reach a dead end in trying to figure something out mentally...a computer problem, say, or a way to make and distribute enough money to take care of financial considerations...and find that you are getting angry or sad about totally unrelated things? The big circle. ALL connected. And if you could really see the sequence of events that brought about many of these chop breakdowns that are being called focal dystonia in certain circles...you would find that they BEGAN as dissatisfaction in an artistic or musical sense, As EMOTIONAL problems. I personally have never seen ANYONE whose real chop difficulties began after they had reached a fairly high level of achievement on the instrument...short of injury, old age, extended lack of time on the instrument or dental problems...who was happy with the musical scene in which they lived most of the time. Always someone with a lot of complaints. either about their own playing, their position in the scene or the scene itself. So it goes. Emotionally bothered, unable to successfully apply mental solutions to the problem... Chop problems. ========================================================== If an involuntary muscular action is occurring and it is debilitating in some way, then we've got a problem! Question is (as others have mentioned) how to proceed. We really ought to be advanced enough now not to ascribe a stigma to any disease which might have EITHER body or mind locus. Either way the disease is very real. Just ask Frank Rosolino if depression is real. . .Oh! That's right we can't! We tend to just ascribe these diseases to one big heap ("crazy"). That is certainly not the case. As we find out more and more about the mind we realize that it, too is subject to imbalances (please let's not get too into balance. . .we all want balance, we just need concrete methodology to get there) or diseases which have very physical aspects. These APPEAR, however, to be mental. We now know that many schiophrenics can lead relatively normal lives IF they stay on medication. . .and that's a big if, since they may try to go it alone without the uncomfortable meds. I think with the tendency today to be overloaded with everything--information, tasks, stuff, causes, food etc. we don't always feed ourselves enough nutrients for the soul. Could be we will see more of these hard-to-pin-down diseases. Chris Tune Yup. More attention spent on the emotions, on the soul, would do wonders. In the whole society... Later... S. -- Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC. Visit us on the web at and/or , email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by appointment only. PLEASE VISIT THE OPEN HORN, A WEB FORUM Lots of interesting discussions going on every day. An introduction to the site is available at or just come on over check it out at From: Robert Sanders Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:22:37 -0700 To: Trombone-L Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1872] Re: Focal Dystonia On Aug 26, 2004, at 2:40 PM, sabutin wrote: It appears to me that much the same thing is happening to any NUMBER of brass musicians who are using the words "focal dystonia" as a sort of excuse for losing their chops. They try to play past their balance and strength abilities (especially in today's blaring symphonic brass world, being asked to play FFFFF on huge equipment before they are really developed as players), lose their embouchure focus, hear the words "focal dystonia",Ê and jump to unnecessary conclusions. On Aug 27, 2004, at 7:59 AM, sabutin wrote: I personally have never seen ANYONE whose real chop difficulties began after they had reached a fairly high level of achievement on the instrument...short of injury, old age, extended lack of time on the instrument or dental problems...who was happy with the musical scene in which they lived most of the time. Always someone with a lot of complaints. either about their own playing, their position in the scene or the scene itself. I had no idea that you had led such a sheltered life! The one trombonist I have worked with personally who had been medically diagnosed (by a movement disorder specialist) with Focal Dystonia is a university student who loves playing, is young, practices consistently, has no dental problems, does not play particularly big equipment, is not part of "today's blaring symphonic brass world" and so on. We were able to effect some improvement but not enough that the student felt comfortable pursuing a performance degree. He was not using focal dystonia as any kind of "excuse." He would dearly love to be able to play like before but is sufficiently "happy" with "the music scene" that he is pursuing a Music Industry degree and is still able to play trombone for his own enjoyment. His playing may yet improve, he is a diligent young man Ð then again, it may not. Alex Iles' and my friend and other colleagues here in LA who have been forced to retire prematurely do not fit your "profile" either. Perhaps the several prominent symphony musicians and other fine players world-wide who have been afflicted are excuse seekers, but I suspect not. Another example that comes to mind is Leon Fleisher. See the following quote from www.dystonia-foundation.org: ÒIt was at the age of 16 that I first started my career. At the height of my career, I was stricken with an unknown malady that caused an involuntary curling under of the fourth and fifth fingers of my right hand,Ó said Fleisher. ÒI went to world specialists who were vaguely familiar with the symptoms but had not yet developed a name for the problem, nor did they understand its causes or how to deal with it. I had started so young and had gotten so much satisfaction from playing the piano that, in effect, I felt my life was over.Ó Fleisher was afflicted with dystonia at the pinnacle of his career -- at age 35, and the loss of movement not only affected his performance career but also proved to be a serious impediment on everyday tasks -- from combing his hair and brushing his teeth to writing. Fleisher diligently tested his right hand every day on the piano since the onset of symptoms, searching persistently for answers and treatment. The search finally led him to a clinical trial nearly 30 years later at the National Institutes of Health. At NIH, Fleisher began receiving treatment which relaxed the tension in his muscles, allowing his fingers to reassume their full, extended length. This treatment has enabled his recent comeback to two-handed playing. Gary Graffman's thirty plus years performing and commissioning works for left hand piano do not sound, to me, like someone seeking excuses either. I too had some discussions with Jan Kagarice at ITF. She indicated that she has worked with some pretty good players who had some pretty good jobs who were sufficiently "happy with the music scene" to commute considerably distance and stick with a slow and frustrating process to try and get better. She has had some sucess, also. You are absolutely right, not much is known about focal dystonia. There probably are many misdiagnoses. There are probably several other things going on. Some folks will be able to help themselves, some may not. Some may, consciously or not, be looking for an excuse. But, as far as I have seen, most who are afflicted with any chop difficulty dearly love playing and are very reluctant to discuss their problem for fear of loss of playing opportunity and/or censure from their colleagues. I don't really think that you intended censure of this sort, but it does read that way to me. Also, for a ray of hope: http://www.dystonia-bb.org/forums/mwd/posts/150.html http://www.davidleisner.com/focaldystonia.html These are both hand dystonia cases but they do speak to the possibility of improvement. I also recommend Jan Kagarice highly. Bob Sanders From: Eric & Candice Swanson Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:48:31 -0500 To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1873] RE: Looking for a challenge Steve Gamble wrote: >Hello Rick, > >I haven't played everything out there. But of the instruments that you >are interested in, the only one that was any good that I have played was >the instrument made by Conn that folks referred to as a trombonium. I >think Conn still called it a valve trombone, though. It looks kind of >like a scrawny baritone with an 8H bell. It's a decent horn. > > Steve, That was the Conn 90G, and the bell was an 8H bell in fact. It looks a little like a small baritone horn. I have seen a couple on ebay. Rick may have had more the trumpet shaped instruments in mind, like the Flugabone and the other "marching trombones". Advantage of the 90G is a much larger bore, .562", and a bigger bell. Most of the others are only around .500" bore. I haven't played a 90G, but I bet they are pretty good. Good luck finding one though, they were only made for a few years and didn't catch on. Eric Swanson From: alex iles Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:42:10 -0800 To: sabutin@mindspring.com Cc: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1874] Sam's focal dystonia response Sam and all, Sorry this is long, but Sam raises some good points. Gotta be careful, here. I have suspected for some time that the entire medical profession is up the creek without a paddle about a number of things, and this includes "focal dystonia". They call every infection under the sun "a cold", lumping any NUMBER of entirely separate conditions under one catch-all and then prescribing medicines that only treat the symptoms. AND...there is a "Disease of the Month" (Year, decade....) club in effect as well. "Focal dystonia" is one of these in many cases, I suspect. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- First of all, my theme in responding to Don was to BE CAREFUL. On all fronts. There are also many doctors and health care "experts" who are unfamiliar with this condition. The "entire medical profession" is a lot of different things, among them, profit-driven corporations. However, "Alternative Therapies of the Month" clubs are out there too. A group of people also exist out there who are working honestly to discover ways of dealing with this and many other medical problems. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am not saying it does not exist...but I AM saying that it is WAY over-diagnosed, and that "going to a qualified doctor" can be something of a self -fulfilling prophecy in this instance if you are not VERY careful. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This CAN be true, but can we logically discount EVERY medical diagnosis? Just because something TENDS to be over-diagnosed by certain doctors does not mean that it is ALWAYS mis-diagnosed by those knowledgeable and experienced in that certain field. I also think a lot of folks are being incorrectly "diagnosed" by colleagues, teachers or worse...THEMSELVES. Big mistake! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Go to a liver doctor with some sort of disease and you are quite likely to find that indeed you do have liver problems. Take the same disease to a neurologist...a whole different look ensues. So...be careful. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Absolutely true to an extent too. I am sure it has been measured in numerous double-blind studies!! But this was part of my original point to Don. Not ALL chop problems are necessarily FD. Here is what I originally said... There are several things that can create a "chop problem". Some of them are related to a playing issue while other problems are just not possible to "fix" with attention paid to musical/physical practice. Many chop problems are fixable in a variety of ways, others aren't. I am by NO means an expert on this subject, but FD appears to be a VERY specific condition with several types of debilitating symptoms and it is not "curable". Do some players make adjustments? Emphatically, YES!! Recently, some musicians who have received the diagnosis HAVE reported gains in some or a LOT of their playing abilities with some form of retraining [pianist, Leon Fleisher is one celebrated case], however once you have FD, you've got it for good. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I had a long talk w/Jan Kagarice about this subject at the ITF this summer. She is looking at it NOT from an entirely "musical" position, but some of her views and solutions are indeed informed by music. A precursor to this "focal dystonia" epidemic ...which coincidentally only seems to happen to well educated people who have heard of it, never to jazz or latin or folk musicians who are living outside of the area of society where it is often referenced. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not in the case of my colleague. She was a professionally diverse commercial/jazz musician who slowly lost ALL her sound production abilities [on several wind instruments]. The symptoms eventually became pronounced and obvious to everyone around her. She had never previously heard of FD and sought guidance from many experienced private music teachers. You could SEE it happen in her embouchure. She showed many symptoms in NON-musical situations too...eating with a spoon, holding a pencil between her lips. Also, just because something like this didn't have a name in the past does not mean it didn't exist. Yes, certain unqualified MD's and some Disease of the Month subscribing brass pedagogues might wrongly diagnose the condition [contributing to that "disease du jour" situation], but to say that it is ALWAYS or USUALLY misdiagnosed by someone with solid research experience with regard to how the brain functions is not fair to those who are suffering with FD. This group of sufferers cuts across the musical spectrum. It includes drummers, bluegrass guitarists and even NON-musicians [one facial FD sufferer I heard about is a pipe smoker who had developed symptoms!!]. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ..was the so-called "Valsalva maneuver" problem where brass players lost their ability to attack, supposedly because they lost the ability to open up the back of the throat at the right time. This resulted in a stutter-like inabilty to make a clean start to notes...often only in certain ranges. Screwed up quite a few players, too. Permanently. ------------------------------------------------------- No doubt. There are LOTS of ways to have chop problems. Again, I said.... There are several things that can create a "chop problem". -------------------------------------------------------------------------- you continued, Carmine Caruso solved thus kind of problem every day, without ever naming it. I am sure he helped many musicians--not just brass players--overcome problems, but was still not "solving" FD necessarily. He was working with people suffering from a variety of conditions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He basically said that the player had lost his inner time, and then taught him to re-establish it. This worked, too... I am sure this method works for MANY but not ALL. There are many ways to get off track. Re-establishing a pattern in sync with a technique is a good way to build yourself up again. HOWEVER, defining ONE solution for ALL chop problems is just as suspect as ONE solution to lose weight. You said this in essence yourself when you said [and I agree!] that many doctors call "every infection under the sun 'a cold', lumping any NUMBER of entirely separate conditions under one catch-all". Not every infection is simply "a cold" just as not every chop problem is simply due to a "loss of inner time". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It appears to me that much the same thing is happening to any NUMBER of brass musicians who are using the words "focal dystonia" as a sort of excuse for losing their chops. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This I TOTALLY agree with. FD is a buzz word among many professional musicians. That is exactly why if you think you have the symptoms, you need to get as close to a proper diagnosis as soon as possible... from a qualified medical professional. You only exacerbate the problems the longer you wait. What if you are told you DON'T have FD??!?! You still have a "chop problem"!! And you've still got some serious work to do, but now you have a better chance at working through your problem, armed with the knowledge that you stand a better chance to work through it in time. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- They try to play past their balance and strength abilities (especially in today's blaring symphonic brass world, being asked to play FFFFF on huge equipment before they are really developed as players), lose their embouchure focus, hear the words "focal dystonia", and jump to unnecessary conclusions. Again, maybe true, but my friend referenced above is NOT of any particular "school" at all. She was primarily a "low woodwind" player with a commercial/jazz emphasis. She played in LOTS of musical situations at a very high professional level. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now I am not saying this is true in EVERY case....but often enough for me to say "Be careful". Again, we agree. That's why I wrote what I did in the first place! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jan Kagarice agreed with me, and spoke of successful experiments using time...just like Carmine did...to help people with all SORTS of serious muscular/neurological disconnects. Makes sense to me... Makes sense to me too!! This is good news and I look forward to hearing more about her work in this area. The Focal Dystonia Foundation appears VERY open to new ideas [from traditional medical sources and non-traditional], in order to get the word out to help those suffering with it. There are many muscular and neurological "disconnects" though that can lead to problems that ARE more immediately treatable than FD. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Again... Alex. If there is "no known cure"...why go to a doctor? No cure, but with a positive diagnosis, you can start to seek ways to cope or adjust, sometimes in conjunction with other approaches. There is no "cure" for HIV, but today, many people learn to live with it...in part under a doctor's guidance. Let's turn this around again...With a NEGATIVE FD diagnosis of a chop problem, someone can always seek other solutions. Most musicians who are FD sufferers have exhausted their options. Most say they went to see a neurologist as a matter of last resort. I am sure some seek out the help an MD too early in their quest and perhaps are misdiagnosed [often by the teachers and players who are too quick to suggest , "Looks like you got FD, kiddo"]. I never said people with chop problems should automatically ASSUME they have FD! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just like treating a cold or the flu. Look for other approaches instead. The medical profession is INDEED 'actually kind of at a loss" on a NUMBER of fronts. Perhaps, but the "medical profession" [an umbrella term really] despite its lowered status among many skeptics, has also found us a cure for polio, pioneered hip replacements, lasik surgery, the pill, penicillin, cochlear implants, heart transplants, etc, etc.... I am weary of many members of the "medical profession" too, but I am even MORE skeptical of those who lump the "medical profession" together as a whole. It is NOT all one thing or group! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Really, they are VERY big on diagnosis but not so hot on cure. Especially when, as of right now, there is none. Not for honest-to-goodness FD. Is it often misdiagnosed? You bet!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If I had this kind of problem, I would look VERY carefully at how I was playing. FIRST. You are in sync then with 99% of the musicians dealing with it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And how I was living as well. I would THOROUGHLY clean out my system. Drugs, alcohol, sugar, tobacco, overeating, overweight, lack of exercise, sluggish elimination...out the window. Immediately. These definitely can be triggers to lots of problems. Some of the above could lead to chop problems specifically. Personally, caffeine really messes with my playing. No connection with helping FD from what I have heard and read about any of the above, however. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If nothing came of those approaches, after a few months or so I would look into acupuncture with the heaviest acupuncturist I could find. (Or maybe along WITH those ideas.) The chances are that any number of these problems...which seem to center around orchestral brass players who have tried to play past their physical abilities...have to do with nerve and muscular injury that becomes chronic. The nerve pathways get blocked by repeated stress, which is exactly what acupuncture seeks to treat. I think the jury is still out on it. I have never heard of any consistent success with acupuncture and FD. Depends on who you talk to, though. There was an acupuncture thread I saw [but did not read] on the FD bulletin board. FD is in the brain, but could the "block" be somewhere else? I dunno..? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The MIND gets blocked by repeated failure, as well...a whole 'nother can of snakes. Indeed. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Meditation cleans out the mind. Worth a try... Any of the above is worth a try [or "un-try", as Yoda might say to Luke Skywalker!!!]. That goes for all of us, with or without a "problem". ---------------------------------------------------------------- Y'see...this just doesn't seem to happen so often in less structured systems. It seems to me that there are a couple of possible explanations for this. First...if no one KNOWS about "focal dystonia", they can't very well HAVE it. My friend KNEW NOTHING about it when she started having PROFOUND symptoms. When this thing comes on, it does NOT go away. She got mis-diagnosed at one point with Bell's Palsy and some other nerve-related things until she actually got to a person at UCLA who knew about FD. As I said, non musicians do get it, but don't tend to lose CAREERS for having facial problems. Also, perhaps part of the reason FD is such an issue of paranoia among "classical" musicians is that very soft and delicate playing is often the first musical demand affected by the disorder [particularly in its earliest stages]. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So they treat it as a chop problem and it goes away. And/or... In less organized scenes, you are only as good as your last note. No tenure; no excuses, very little "Well, keep trying, Kid. You'll get it eventually". Quite a LOT of "Go home and practice, or at LEAST go sit on the 4th chair until you get your act together." You cannot keep on failing to do something in an achievement based scene. But in the symphonic world...especially on the lower levels and in schools...some poor tuba player or french hornist lands in a spot they can't handle and the scene is so uptight that they often stay there, trying and failing, trying and failing, until they fall apart. Sad. But not terminal. Not all chop problems are terminal [in fact, NONE are!] but many are treatable, maybe this one too. FD is a VERY complicated issue, it is often MIS or OVER-diagnosed, but it is also just too real to right it off. I have witnessed how it can contribute to the premature end of someone's career...plain and simple. Best wishes and thanks for keeping me honest!! Alex From: Earl Needham Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:36:44 -0700 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1875] Re: Looking for a challenge At 10:23 AM 8/27/2004, Richard E. Onofrey, Jr. wrote: > >However, I don't want to buy a "traditional" valve trombone. I'm >looking more along the lines of a marching trombone, flugabone or >trombonium. Rick, any reason you left out tenor trumpets? Although not quite a marching instrument, they are NICE (in the proper hands, of course). Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB, Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk From: "Chris Tune" Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:47:36 -0700 To: , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1876] Re: Looking for a challenge Why not get into the "traditional" valve trombone. Played by someone who actually cares about sound, it is a very beautiful instrument. It's capable of remarkable agility too! Of course it's gotten a bad rap, because of lots of casual attitude doubling into the axe. In those hands the sound is really overly "valvy". I'd one day like to get a 5H and get seriously into providing a natural double. Offering the sound of a good valve bone. Chris Tune ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard E. Onofrey, Jr." To: Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 10:23 AM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1861] Looking for a challenge > Hello Listers, > > At the risk of getting flamed, I'm looking for a challenge. I want to > teach myself to play a valved instrument (I'm a self-taught trombone > player of moderate skill). Now, I know that the only worthwhile > instrument is a trombone -- and the only worthwhile valves are those on > a bass trombone (or at least an F-trigger). However, I'm still thinking > about purchasing a valve trombone. > > However, I don't want to buy a "traditional" valve trombone. I'm > looking more along the lines of a marching trombone, flugabone or > trombonium. I would appreciate feedback from anyone who plays/has > played these types of instruments, both positive and negative. Also, if > anyone is looking to sell an instrument in decent shape, I'd consider > that as well. > > (Ducking for cover), > > Rick Onofrey > Amateur trombonist and (apparently) professional masochist! > > From: "Chris Tune" Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:23:24 -0700 To: , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1877] Re: Focal Dystonia I knew I was odd in even trying dilligently NOT to be racist. Well, since it's HABIT now. . .I'll just keep trying. Also I'm stupid, so I still vainly struggle to actually count. . .just like a child. . .ONE. . .TWO. . .THREE. LIke all my inventory items either had a count of ZERO, or there was something there. Some positive number. . .helped me in getting paid to do accounting. . .still helps lots now. Also, SIMPLE. . .great. Very good indeed. Like slide positions. Simple. But, unlike a child, I've read some nice material on anatomy and psychology. EMOTIONS occur in the actual physique. William James, in his astounding and profound, "The Principles of Psychology", heads a chapter "THE EMOTIONS" and one section of that chapter--"Emotion is a consequence, not the cause, of the bodily expression." What that means is that you cannot have an emotional change without FIRST having a physical change, a change in your body's actual physiology. Whether it is a burst of adrenaline or other reaction that causes, say the emotion of "fear", first you had numerous sensory and other physical changes occur BEFORE you changed into "fearing". Other times, the brain causes a raise in heart rate (even while no other outside stimulus occurs) and then an emotional change occurs. Also, no "fear" without some kind of predictable physical change too! We really all should read this stuff. He talks about HABIT, not only in terms of what it is, but in terms of what it ACHIEVES for the species. Why do we have habit? What is "the perception of reality". He discussed that and conciousness at length. The NAME is WILLIAM JAMES. I'm looking at a copy out of the Britannica "The Great Books of the Western World" series. Don't think, because it's considered central to Western thought that it's bogus. IT'S NOT. So it's really BODY/MIND. . .IN THAT ORDER TOO! You might be able to help a person suffering this way quite a bit, also, by making sure they are hip to eating only good food (no Hoagies. . .you don't eat Big Macs . . .well very rarely anyway). Lot's of vegetables, fruits, juice, beer (well, they don't HAVE to drink beer. . .but an occasional beer or wine is pretty good). Not so much fat and simple sugars. Much less meat. And they exercise some. [none of this really evil FAKE handicapped parking crap! Just WALK for cryin' out loud]. This will create profound improvement in every aspect of their body anyway. . .so why not? Then, if there is still the CNS problem, then you work on it via CNS work. And I believe those two parts (really one part with a BIG, BIG subsection called the CNS) encompass everything. SOUL. . .EMOTIONS. . .MEANING. . .LOVE. . .ESSENCE. . .whatever you want to ascribe. All that stuff can and should be brought down to simple BODY (and your MIND is an important. . .perhaps preemininent part of that). We're better off keeping things SIMPLER, not more complex. PS--CNS = Central Nervous System, comprising the nerves, the spinal conduit, the primitive "reptilian" brain, the Cerebellum (center of body movement) and numerous other parts people usually call the Brain. Chris Tune ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Gamble" To: Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 9:01 AM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1859] Re: Focal Dystonia > ... the necessary third note of the triad,... > > Now hold on a minute. Not only does everybody KNOW that, if you're > breathing, you're a racist, everybody KNOWS that there are only two > notes in a triad...count 'em...0 1 2. > > Steve Gamble > > > From: LarryL595@aol.com Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:40:14 EDT To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1878] (no subject) SET TROMBONE-L mail ack From: "Bob Koester" Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 18:53:52 -0500 To: alexiles@earthlink.net, sabutin@mindspring.com Cc: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1879] RE: Sam's focal dystonia response Good evening all, As I've read all the entries about FD, and particularly Alex and Sam's interchange questions come to mind. I don't have any magic answers but let me throw a couple of things out for general comment. Years ago we used to hear and talk about players who had "blown their chops out". Frequently the cause was, we thought, a result of a lot of improperly placed muscle stress. For example, walking in late and playing without warming up, warming up some, but playing way to loud too soon, or in a lot of cases, forcing muscles...the high pressure system. (Anybody who has ever seen a trumpet player black out on the stand knows what I mean.) It's very easy to blame the demands of very loud playing. I wonder though if extremely soft playing isn't equally as much too blame. If the flow of breath is stopped and started by thought/muscular contractions to achieve a particular dynamic affect, then to me it stands to reason that the breath is not being allowed to function naturally and an artificial muscle response is imposed. So, if a player desires a particular soft phrasing and chooses to accomplish it by imposing artificial muscle responses on the natural air stream seems to me it follows that muscular tightness and subsequent strain can occur. Or, improperly placed muscle stress. Seventy or so years ago, Herbert Clarke said "the breath is the life of the tone". I believe that statement is as true today as it was then. So, is it possible the matter becomes if we have abused muscles to control the natural flow of breath rather than training the muscles to work WITH the natural flow of breath we contribute to chop problems which may ultimately be diagnosed as FD? (Or improperly placed muscle stress.) Thoughts please. Best to all, Bob >From: alex iles >Reply-To: alexiles@earthlink.net >To: sabutin@mindspring.com >CC: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu >Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1874] Sam's focal dystonia response >Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:42:10 -0800 > >Sam and all, > >Sorry this is long, but Sam raises some good points. > > > Gotta be careful, here. > > > > I have suspected for some time that the entire medical profession is up >the creek without a paddle about a number of things, and > > this includes "focal dystonia". > > > > They call every infection under the sun "a cold", lumping any NUMBER of >entirely separate conditions under one catch-all and > > then prescribing medicines that only treat the symptoms. > > > > AND...there is a "Disease of the Month" (Year, decade....) club in >effect as well. > > > > "Focal dystonia" is one of these in many cases, I suspect. > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >First of all, my theme in responding to Don was to BE CAREFUL. On all >fronts. There are also many doctors and health care "experts" who are >unfamiliar with this condition. The "entire medical profession" is a lot >of different things, among them, profit-driven corporations. However, >"Alternative Therapies of the Month" clubs are out there too. A group of >people also exist out there who are working honestly to discover ways of >dealing with this and many other medical problems. >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > I am not saying it does not exist...but I AM saying that it is WAY >over-diagnosed, and that "going to a qualified doctor" can be > > something of a self -fulfilling prophecy in this instance if you are not >VERY careful. > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >This CAN be true, but can we logically discount EVERY medical diagnosis? >Just because something TENDS to be over-diagnosed by certain doctors >does not mean that it is ALWAYS mis-diagnosed by those knowledgeable and >experienced in that certain field. I also think a lot of folks are being >incorrectly "diagnosed" by colleagues, teachers or worse...THEMSELVES. >Big mistake! >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Go to a liver doctor with some sort of disease and you are quite likely >to find that indeed you do have liver problems. > > > > Take the same disease to a neurologist...a whole different look ensues. > > > > So...be careful. > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Absolutely true to an extent too. I am sure it has been measured in >numerous double-blind studies!! > >But this was part of my original point to Don. Not ALL chop problems are >necessarily FD. Here is what I originally said... > > > > There are several things that can create a "chop problem". Some of >them are related to a playing issue while other problems are > > just not possible to "fix" with attention paid to musical/physical >practice. > > > >Many chop problems are fixable in a variety of ways, others aren't. I am >by NO means an expert on this subject, but FD appears to be a VERY >specific condition with several types of debilitating symptoms and it is >not "curable". Do some players make adjustments? Emphatically, YES!! >Recently, some musicians who have received the diagnosis HAVE reported >gains in some or a LOT of their playing abilities with some form of >retraining [pianist, Leon Fleisher is one celebrated case], however once >you have FD, you've got it for good. >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > I had a long talk w/Jan Kagarice about this subject at the ITF this > > summer. She is looking at it NOT from an entirely "musical" > > position, but some of her views and solutions are indeed informed by > > music. > > > A precursor to this "focal dystonia" epidemic ...which coincidentally >only seems to happen to well educated people who have > > heard of it, never to jazz or latin or folk musicians who are living >outside of the area of society where it is often referenced. > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Not in the case of my colleague. She was a professionally diverse >commercial/jazz musician who slowly lost ALL her sound production >abilities [on several wind instruments]. The symptoms eventually became >pronounced and obvious to everyone around her. She had never previously >heard of FD and sought guidance from many experienced private music >teachers. You could SEE it happen in her embouchure. She showed many >symptoms in NON-musical situations too...eating with a spoon, holding a >pencil between her lips. > >Also, just because something like this didn't have a name in the past >does not mean it didn't exist. Yes, certain unqualified MD's and some >Disease of the Month subscribing brass pedagogues might wrongly diagnose >the condition [contributing to that "disease du jour" situation], but to >say that it is ALWAYS or USUALLY misdiagnosed by someone with solid >research experience with regard to how the brain functions is not fair >to those who are suffering with FD. This group of sufferers cuts across >the musical spectrum. It includes drummers, bluegrass guitarists and >even NON-musicians [one facial FD sufferer I heard about is a pipe >smoker who had developed symptoms!!]. >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ..was > > the so-called "Valsalva maneuver" problem where brass players lost their >ability to attack, supposedly because they lost the ability > > to open up the back of the throat at the right time. This resulted in a >stutter-like inabilty to make a clean start to notes...often only > > in certain ranges. > > > > Screwed up quite a few players, too. > > > > Permanently. > > >------------------------------------------------------- > >No doubt. There are LOTS of ways to have chop problems. Again, I >said.... > > > There are several things that can create a "chop problem". > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >you continued, > > > Carmine Caruso solved thus kind of problem every day, without ever >naming it. > > > >I am sure he helped many musicians--not just brass players--overcome >problems, but was still not "solving" FD necessarily. He was working >with people suffering from a variety of conditions. >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > He basically said that the player had lost his inner time, and then >taught him to re-establish it. > > > > This worked, too... > > > >I am sure this method works for MANY but not ALL. There are many ways to >get off track. Re-establishing a pattern in sync with a technique is a >good way to build yourself up again. HOWEVER, defining ONE solution for >ALL chop problems is just as suspect as ONE solution to lose weight. You >said this in essence yourself when you said [and I agree!] that many >doctors call "every infection under the sun 'a cold', lumping any NUMBER >of entirely separate conditions under one catch-all". Not every >infection is simply "a cold" just as not every chop problem is simply >due to a "loss of inner time". >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > It appears to me that much the same thing is happening to any NUMBER of >brass musicians who are using the words "focal > > dystonia" as a sort of excuse for losing their chops. > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >This I TOTALLY agree with. FD is a buzz word among many professional >musicians. That is exactly why if you think you have the symptoms, you >need to get as close to a proper diagnosis as soon as possible... from a >qualified medical professional. You only exacerbate the problems the >longer you wait. What if you are told you DON'T have FD??!?! > >You still have a "chop problem"!! > >And you've still got some serious work to do, but now you have a better >chance at working through your problem, armed with the knowledge that >you stand a better chance to work through it in time. >----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > They try to play past their balance and strength abilities (especially >in today's > > blaring symphonic brass world, being asked to play FFFFF on huge >equipment before they are really developed as players), lose > > their embouchure focus, hear the words "focal dystonia", and jump to >unnecessary conclusions. > > > >Again, maybe true, but my friend referenced above is NOT of any >particular "school" at all. She was primarily a "low woodwind" player >with a commercial/jazz emphasis. She played in LOTS of musical >situations at a very high professional level. >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Now I am not saying this is true in EVERY case....but often enough for >me to say "Be careful". > > > >Again, we agree. That's why I wrote what I did in the first place! >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Jan Kagarice agreed with me, and spoke of successful experiments using >time...just like Carmine did...to help people with all > > SORTS of serious muscular/neurological disconnects. > > > > Makes sense to me... > > >Makes sense to me too!! This is good news and I look forward to hearing >more about her work in this area. The Focal Dystonia Foundation appears >VERY open to new ideas [from traditional medical sources and >non-traditional], in order to get the word out to help those suffering >with it. There are many muscular and neurological "disconnects" though >that can lead to problems that ARE more immediately treatable than FD. >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Again... > >Alex. > >If there is "no known cure"...why go to a doctor? >No cure, but with a positive diagnosis, you can start to seek ways to >cope or adjust, sometimes in conjunction with other approaches. There is >no "cure" for HIV, but today, many people learn to live with it...in >part under a doctor's guidance. > >Let's turn this around again...With a NEGATIVE FD diagnosis of a chop >problem, someone can always seek other solutions. Most musicians who are >FD sufferers have exhausted their options. Most say they went to see a >neurologist as a matter of last resort. I am sure some seek out the help >an MD too early in their quest and perhaps are misdiagnosed [often by >the teachers and players who are too quick to suggest , "Looks like you >got FD, kiddo"]. I never said people with chop problems should >automatically ASSUME they have FD! >----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Just like treating a cold or the flu. > > > > Look for other approaches instead. > > > > The medical profession is INDEED 'actually kind of at a loss" on a >NUMBER of fronts. > > > >Perhaps, but the "medical profession" [an umbrella term really] despite >its lowered status among many skeptics, has also found us a cure for >polio, pioneered hip replacements, lasik surgery, the pill, penicillin, >cochlear implants, heart transplants, etc, etc.... I am weary of many >members of the "medical profession" too, but I am even MORE skeptical >of those who lump the "medical profession" together as a whole. It is >NOT all one thing or group! >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Really, they are VERY big on diagnosis but not so hot on cure. > > > >Especially when, as of right now, there is none. Not for >honest-to-goodness FD. Is it often misdiagnosed? You bet!! >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > If I had this kind of problem, I would look VERY carefully at how I was >playing. > > > > FIRST. > > > >You are in sync then with 99% of the musicians dealing with it. >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > And how I was living as well. > > > > I would THOROUGHLY clean out my system. Drugs, alcohol, sugar, tobacco, >overeating, overweight, lack of exercise, > > sluggish elimination...out the window. > > > > Immediately. > > > >These definitely can be triggers to lots of problems. Some of the above >could lead to chop problems specifically. Personally, caffeine really >messes with my playing. No connection with helping FD from what I have >heard and read about any of the above, however. >----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > If nothing came of those approaches, after a few months or so I would >look into acupuncture with the heaviest acupuncturist I > > could find. (Or maybe along WITH those ideas.) > > > > The chances are that any number of these problems...which seem to center >around orchestral brass players who have tried to play > > past their physical abilities...have to do with nerve and muscular >injury that becomes chronic. The nerve pathways get blocked by > > repeated stress, which is exactly what acupuncture seeks to treat. > > > >I think the jury is still out on it. I have never heard of any >consistent success with acupuncture and FD. Depends on who you talk to, >though. There was an acupuncture thread I saw [but did not read] on the >FD bulletin board. FD is in the brain, but could the "block" be >somewhere else? I dunno..? >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > The MIND gets blocked by repeated failure, as well...a whole 'nother can >of snakes. > > > >Indeed. >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Meditation cleans out the mind. Worth a try... > > > >Any of the above is worth a try [or "un-try", as Yoda might say to Luke >Skywalker!!!]. That goes for all of us, with or without a "problem". >---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Y'see...this just doesn't seem to happen so often in less structured >systems. It seems to me that there are a couple of possible > > explanations for this. > > > > First...if no one KNOWS about "focal dystonia", they can't very well >HAVE it. > > > >My friend KNEW NOTHING about it when she started having PROFOUND >symptoms. When this thing comes on, it does NOT go away. She got >mis-diagnosed at one point with Bell's Palsy and some other >nerve-related things until she actually got to a person at UCLA who knew >about FD. As I said, non musicians do get it, but don't tend to lose >CAREERS for having facial problems. Also, perhaps part of the reason FD >is such an issue of paranoia among "classical" musicians is that very >soft and delicate playing is often the first musical demand affected by >the disorder [particularly in its earliest stages]. >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > So they treat it as a chop problem and it goes away. > > > > And/or... > > > > In less organized scenes, you are only as good as your last note. > > > > No tenure; no excuses, very little "Well, keep trying, Kid. You'll get >it eventually". > > > > Quite a LOT of "Go home and practice, or at LEAST go sit on the 4th >chair until you get your act together." > > > > You cannot keep on failing to do something in an achievement based >scene. > > > > But in the symphonic world...especially on the lower levels and in >schools...some poor tuba player or french hornist lands in a > > spot they can't handle and the scene is so uptight that they often stay >there, trying and failing, trying and failing, until they fall > > apart. > > > > Sad. > > > > But not terminal. > > > >Not all chop problems are terminal [in fact, NONE are!] but many are >treatable, maybe this one too. FD is a VERY complicated issue, it is >often MIS or OVER-diagnosed, but it is also just too real to right it >off. I have witnessed how it can contribute to the premature end of >someone's career...plain and simple. > >Best wishes and thanks for keeping me honest!! > >Alex > > From: James Scott Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 18:41:06 -0600 To: Paul Kemp , TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1880] Re: Focal Dystonia Paul - We're actually in agreement here, and I'm more concerned about people oversimplifying your statements into this problem being something brought on by bad equipment choices or failure to practice long tones. I know that you aren't saying that - although I agree with you that these are good places to start if you are having any difficulties. Rather, like Sam and Alex said, I think that this condition is often over diagnosed, but if it is actually focal distonia, it won't respond to simple fixes, and will not have been brought on by bad habits of the player. I mentioned Toby Hanks, who's name I have heard in conjunction with this disorder. When I was a student at Juilliard, I was lucky enough to play extra with the NY Philharmonic a few times. One of those times was a Berlioz piece with lots of extra brass, and Toby was the extra tuba. I remember showing up early for the Friday Afternoon concert to warm up, and Toby arrived at the same time. We both started our warm-ups, and I found myself having to stop and listen to his. I've never heard more beautiful sounding long tones and lip slurs - just simple Remington-like stuff, but with the most beautiful tone and attacks and releases. This was a musician who definitely practiced his fundamentals (as was Warren Deck, by the way). I would hate for people to get the idea that this problem came about for such great artists like them because of some lack of personal dedication in their work away from the job. There certainly are players who get themselves into trouble by their actions, but there seem to be some great players who do everything right and still experience this problem. In those cases, I find it easy to believe that it really is focal distonia. I also think that part of the reason that the diagnosis is made too often (in my opinion) is that doctors are expected to come up with a diagnosis every time we come to them. How many of us would go back to a doctor who says "I don't know"? They would also have difficulty collecting their fee from an insurance company with no ailment on the form. Since this disorder had been written up in recent years, it can make it an easy jump of reasoning for a doctor to write it up that way. Anyway, my point is much like yours - that there are several things going on here that are all lumped together. I would counsel anyone experiencing problems to first look at their playing and health habits, and to seek out the help of one of the teachers who has a reputation for dealing well with chops. If none of this works, a trip to a doctor who has some experience with this disorder might put their mind at rest, although, since there doesn't seem to be a cure, it would not be a welcome diagnosis. The only plus I can see to finding out, would be to put some closure on the search for an answer, and if it was someone holding a steady position, say with an orchestra, a diagnosis might help settle any insurance claims for disability, etc. Jim Scott Paul Kemp wrote: Jim, Large equipment isn't necessarily a problem if it fits you and you are willing to do the extra work that it takes in order to make it happen for you. Herseth made all of the Reiner recordings on a 7C mouthpiece and had to go to something bigger after his accident. He still worked very hard on his fundamentals and his concept. I'm sure that Friedman is the same way. I understand that there are people that suffer from nervous disorders that will never recover, particularly if there is a chemical imbalance that is uncontrollable. I do agree with Sam that keeping yourself in a physically and mentally healthy environment is certainly a place to start, and I certainly have run into people that have used their bodies inefficiently for years, and if they are willing to work on those problems, they can certainly improve. What I'm trying to say, along with Sam, is to make sure that other things really aren't the problem before screaming focal dystonia. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: James Scott To: trbnplyr@comcast.net Cc: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 3:02 PM Subject: Re: [TROMBONE-L:1860] Re: Focal Dystonia Paul - Nice post, but I have to take exception to a couple of points. When this topic came up before, a lot of attention was placed on equipment size and you mentioned that in passing as well. Two of the players that you cite in your example of people that have overcome difficulties, however - Herseth and Friedman play very large equipment. Perhaps we've overstated the equipment connection in past discussions. At the same time, I would certainly agree that large mouthpieces, etc., are a bad idea for young developing players, but I still believe that most accomplished professionals are good judges of what works for them. In earlier discussions on this topic, while the blame often shifted to "too large and too loud", it always seemed to me that every time a specific player with the problem was mentioned by a list member, they would describe that player as a good musician who played normal sized equipment. While I'm no expert on tuba mouthpieces, etc., I do know that some of the tubists who have had their names associated with this disorder - Warren Deck, Toby Hanks, and Floyd Cooley for example- were not known for playing exceptionally large mouthpieces. They also seem, at least on the surface, to contradict Sam's point about chop problems happening only to people that were not in a good place professionally. I can't say for sure that all of these men were 100% happy in their professional lives, but they were certainly successful and well respected by their peers. I think that Sam's point about doctors "over diagnosing" focal distonia is very valid, but I would also suggest that perhaps players who lost their chops many years ago (James Chambers, the old solo horn of the NY Philharmonic comes to mind) were suffering from focal distonia, and the doctors didn't know what to call it. I would compare this to ADD in children - there were probably a lot of kids in the 50's and 60's that could have benefited from modern medical treatments of this problem, and there are probably a lot of kids that eat too much sugar and watch too many cartoons that are labeled ADD now by doctors that are happy to have an easy diagnosis. The emotional aspect of all of this is very hard to put into proper context. It becomes a "chicken and egg scenario" - did the person become depressed when their playing started to suffer, or did their playing suffer after they became depressed? No matter which is the case, their emotional state is a valid component of their recovery, and certainly one reason that some teachers have success with players suffering through chop problems is that they are able to help those players feel better emotionally. I guess that my take on all of this is that we're too quick to try to put all of this in a neat box - it's either "all in their heads", or "it's because they play that XXX mouthpiece", or it's "a disease with no possible cure". Probably all of those statements are correct in one particular case or another, and the player who encounters this problem is stuck trying to find out what is the best approach for them. I like Sam's idea about getting healthy when you encounter a problem, since that can't possibly do anything negative to your situation, and seems to knock out some possibilties of other health issues affecting the playing. Also, that would certainly help put the player in a better emotional state, which could certainly help recovery. Anyway, I guess my point that it has taken me so long to get to is that there is not a single cause or course of action in facing this problem. What this forum can do so well is to make people aware of therapies and teachers who have had success in dealing with problems - what it can't do as well is to diagnose what specific problem the player is dealing with, and what course of action they should take. Jim Scott Paul Kemp wrote: Sam's words of wisdom are like gold indeed. I'd like to add something else. There are plenty of stories out there about musicians who have very serious facial injuries. Bud Herseth was in a bad car crash where the steering wheel knocked out his teeth in the 1960's. Fortunately, the week before, his dentist had recommended that they do a plaster mold of his teeth, and he consented. He came back stronger than ever, and from what I understand, did a mouthpiece change to help things. Jay Friedman is a horse trainer when he's not playing principal trombone with the Chicago Symphony. He had a freak accident when a horse kicked him in the mouth. He's still playing in the orchestra, this year makes 40 years with probably the highest profile orchestral brass section IN THE WORLD. I was talking to Dave Steinmeyer this week and he's had some extraordinary problems in the past due to dental problems, but he's 61 now and still playing as strong as he ever did. This is a bit off the subject of focal dystonia, but it really fits right in with what we're talking about. There are plenty of world class players out there who have had to start completely over on all instruments. However, I believe that there is are several underlying factors that brought these people back. 1) They couldn't see themselves doing anything else. 2) They started over with what they could do. 3) They kept working until they were back to the level that they had previously attained, or better. There's no substituting great fundamentals in ANYTHING, because if you really have an innate understanding of the fundamentals, then if something small or if something big goes wrong with your game, and playing the trombone or any other musical instrument is a game, a sport, if you will, you will know exactly what is required in order to fix it. That is the one thing that makes the truly great players great in my opinion. This all comes back to the discussions that we've had in the past on equipment, and particularly in the orchestral world, what has happened over the past 30 years or so is that the equipment has gotten bigger and heavier, and bigger, heavier equipment takes more strength to play. It's one thing when you're 18---it's another thing when your 50+. The smart players out there are always trying to refine that balance that Sam keeps talking about. They revisit the fundamentals daily, they try to do them with more and more efficiency, and they keep refining their concept. The people that DON'T do that---they're in for a shortened career. What's really amazing to me is that musicians far outlast present day athletes. Yes, injuries can set you back, but your will to come back and perform, at whatever game you play, will keep you in the game AT SOME LEVEL. However, there's no shortcuts--fundamentals, and daily maintenance, and working smart. You only have one body----learn to use it wisely. Paul Kemp Chattanooga Symphony "There is nothing like music...to fill the moment with substance." Goethe ----- Original Message ----- From: "sabutin" To: Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 10:59 AM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1858] Re: Focal Dystonia It's interesting that we tend to believe that a disease must not be pycho-somatic or "in the mind" if it is to be "real". I tend to believe that the activity of the mind is the MOST important aspect of anything. Perception is very important but is also not the only activity of the brain and CNS (central nervous system). You could say that a severe enough nervous system malfunction would result in your heart stopping. So there you go. DIRECT CONNECTION: MIND/BODY. =============================== Further: MIND/BODY/EMOTIONS Emotion is the necessary third note of the triad, one that is SO often mislabeled as "mind" in western thought. "He's mentally ill", they say, when indeed the truth of the matter is that his mind is not working well because his EMOTIONS are in total disarray. And all THREE systems are interconnected. Ever been in pain and tried to think? Tried to be happy? Ever notice that you get physically ill most often when your life isn't going well, when you are unhappy? Ever reach a dead end in trying to figure something out mentally...a computer problem, say, or a way to make and distribute enough money to take care of financial considerations...and find that you are getting angry or sad about totally unrelated things? The big circle. ALL connected. And if you could really see the sequence of events that brought about many of these chop breakdowns that are being called focal dystonia in certain circles...you would find that they BEGAN as dissatisfaction in an artistic or musical sense, As EMOTIONAL problems. I personally have never seen ANYONE whose real chop difficulties began after they had reached a fairly high level of achievement on the instrument...short of injury, old age, extended lack of time on the instrument or dental problems...who was happy with the musical scene in which they lived most of the time. Always someone with a lot of complaints. either about their own playing, their position in the scene or the scene itself. So it goes. Emotionally bothered, unable to successfully apply mental solutions to the problem... Chop problems. ========================================================== If an involuntary muscular action is occurring and it is debilitating in some way, then we've got a problem! Question is (as others have mentioned) how to proceed. We really ought to be advanced enough now not to ascribe a stigma to any disease which might have EITHER body or mind locus. Either way the disease is very real. Just ask Frank Rosolino if depression is real. . .Oh! That's right we can't! We tend to just ascribe these diseases to one big heap ("crazy"). That is certainly not the case. As we find out more and more about the mind we realize that it, too is subject to imbalances (please let's not get too into balance. . .we all want balance, we just need concrete methodology to get there) or diseases which have very physical aspects. These APPEAR, however, to be mental. We now know that many schiophrenics can lead relatively normal lives IF they stay on medication. . .and that's a big if, since they may try to go it alone without the uncomfortable meds. I think with the tendency today to be overloaded with everything--information, tasks, stuff, causes, food etc. we don't always feed ourselves enough nutrients for the soul. Could be we will see more of these hard-to-pin-down diseases. Chris Tune Yup. More attention spent on the emotions, on the soul, would do wonders. In the whole society... Later... S. -- Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC. Visit us on the web at and/or , email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by appointment only. PLEASE VISIT THE OPEN HORN, A WEB FORUM Lots of interesting discussions going on every day. An introduction to the site is available at or just come on over check it out at From: Robert Sanders Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 17:51:09 -0700 To: Trombone-L Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1881] Re: Focal Dystonia This appears to be reply to Paul Kemp. I did not, apparently, get his post. It occurs to me that it might not have been have been posted to the list. If so, never mind. If it was intended for the list, I and perhaps others seem to have missed it and a repost is in order. Bob Sanders On Aug 27, 2004, at 5:41 PM, James Scott wrote: Paul - We're actually in agreement here, and I'm more concerned about people oversimplifying your statements into this problem being something brought on by bad equipment choices or failure to practice long tones. I know that you aren't saying that - although I agree with you that these are good places to start if you are having any difficulties. Rather, like Sam and Alex said, I think that this condition is often over diagnosed, but if it is actually focal distonia, it won't respond to simple fixes, and will not have been brought on by bad habits of the player. I mentioned Toby Hanks, who's name I have heard in conjunction with this disorder. When I was Êa student at Juilliard, I was lucky enough to play extra with the NY Philharmonic a few times. One of those times was a Berlioz piece with lots of extra brass, and Toby was the extra tuba. I remember showing up early for the Friday Afternoon concert to warm up, and Toby arrived at the same time. We both started our warm-ups, and I found myself having to stop and listen to his. I've never heard more beautiful sounding long tones and lip slurs - just simple Remington-like stuff, but with the most beautiful tone and attacks and releases. This was a musician who definitely practiced his fundamentals (as was Warren Deck, by the way). I would hate for people to get the idea that this problem came about for such great artists like them because of some lack of Êpersonal dedication in their work away from the job. There certainly are players who get themselves into trouble by their actions, but there seem to be some great players who do everything right and still experience this problem. In those cases, I find it easy to believe that it really is focal distonia. I also think that part of the reason that the diagnosis is made too often (in my opinion) is that doctors are expected to come up with a diagnosis every time we come to them. How many of us would go back to a doctor who says "I don't know"? They would also have difficulty collecting their fee from an insurance company with no ailment on the form. Since this disorder had been written up in recent years, it can make it an easy jump of reasoning for a doctor to write it up that way. Anyway, my point is much like yours - that there are several things going on here that are all lumped together. I would counsel anyone experiencing problems to first look at their playing and health habits, and to seek out the help of one of the teachers who has a reputation for dealing well with chops. If none of this works, a trip to a doctor who has some experience with this disorder might put their mind at rest, although, since there doesn't seem to be a cure, it would not be a welcome diagnosis. The only plus I can see to finding out, would be to put some closure on the search for an answer, and if it was someone holding a steady position, say with an orchestra, a diagnosis might help settle any insurance claims for disability, etc. Jim Scott Paul Kemp wrote: Jim, ÊÊÊ Large equipment isn't necessarily a problem if it fits you and you are willing to do the extra work that it takes in order to make it happen for you. Herseth made all of the Reiner recordings on a 7C mouthpiece and had to go to something bigger after his accident. He still worked very hard on his fundamentals and his concept. I'm sure that Friedman is the same way. ÊÊÊ I understand that there are people that suffer from nervous disorders that will never recover, particularly if there is a chemical imbalance that is uncontrollable.ÊI do agree with Sam that keeping yourself in a physically and mentally healthy environment is certainly a place to start, andÊI certainly have run into people that have used their bodies inefficiently for years, and if they are willing to work on those problems, they can certainly improve.ÊWhat I'm trying to say, along with Sam, is to make sure that other things really aren't the problem before screaming focal dystonia. Ê PaulÊÊ ----- Original Message ----- From: James Scott To: trbnplyr@comcast.net Cc: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 3:02 PM Subject: Re: [TROMBONE-L:1860] Re: Focal Dystonia Paul - Nice post, but I have to take exception to a couple of points. When this topic came up before, a lot of attention was placed on equipment size and you mentioned that in passing as well. Two of the players that you cite in your example of people that have overcome difficulties, however - Herseth and Friedman play very large equipment. ÊPerhaps we've overstated the equipment connection in past discussions. At the same time, I would certainly agree that large mouthpieces, etc., are a bad idea for young developing players, but I still believe that most accomplished professionals are good judges of what works for them. In earlier discussions on this topic, while the blame often shifted to "too large and too loud", it always seemed to me that every time a specific player with the problem was mentioned by a list member, they would describe that player as a good musician who played normal sized equipment. While I'm no expert on tuba mouthpieces, etc., I do know that some of the tubists who have had their names associated with this disorder - Warren Deck, Toby Hanks, and Floyd Cooley for example- were not known for playing exceptionally large mouthpieces. They also seem, at least on the surface, to contradict Sam's point about chop problems happening only to people that were not in a good place professionally. I can't say for sure that all of these men were 100% happy in their professional lives, but they were certainly successful and well respected by their peers. I think that Sam's point about doctors "over diagnosing" focal distonia is very valid, but I would also suggest that perhaps players who lost their chops many years ago (James Chambers, the old solo horn of the NY Philharmonic comes to mind) were suffering from focal distonia, and the doctors didn't know what to call it. I would compare this to ADD in children - there were probably a lot of kids in the 50's and 60's that could have benefited from modern medical treatments of this problem, and there are probably a lot of kids that eat too much sugar and watch too many cartoons that are labeled ADD now by doctors that are happy to have an easy diagnosis. The emotional aspect of all of this is very hard to put into proper context. It becomes a "chicken and egg scenario" - did the person become depressed when their playing started to suffer, or did their playing suffer after they became depressed? No matter which is the case, their emotional state is a valid component of their recovery, and certainly one reason that some teachers have success with players suffering through chop problems is that they are able to help those players feel better emotionally. I guess that my take on all of this is that we're too quick to try to put all of this in a neat box - it's either "all in their heads", or "it's because they play that XXX mouthpiece", or it's "a disease with no possible cure". Probably all of those statements are correct Êin one particular case or another, and the player who encounters this problem is stuck trying to find out what is the best approach for them. I like Sam's idea about getting healthy when you encounter a problem, since that can't possibly do anything negative to your situation, and seems to knock out some possibilties of other health issues affecting the playing. Also, that would certainly help put the player in a better emotional state, which could certainly help recovery. Anyway, I guess my point that it has taken me so long to get to is that there is not a single cause or course of action in facing this problem. What this forum can do so well is to make people aware of therapies and teachers who have had success in dealing with problems - what it can't do as well is to diagnose what specific problem the player is dealing with, and what course of action they should take. Jim Scott Paul Kemp wrote: Sam's words of wisdom are like gold indeed. I'd like to add something else. There are plenty of stories out there about musicians who have very serious facial injuries. Bud Herseth was in a bad car crash where the steering wheel knocked out his teeth in the 1960's. Fortunately, the week before, his dentist had recommended that they do a plaster mold of his teeth, and he consented. He came back stronger than ever, and from what I understand, did a mouthpiece change to help things. Jay Friedman is a horse trainer when he's not playing principal trombone with the Chicago Symphony. He had a freak accident when a horse kicked him in the mouth. He's still playing in the orchestra, this year makes 40 years with probably the highest profile orchestral brass section IN THE WORLD. I was talking to Dave Steinmeyer this week and he's had some extraordinary problems in the past due to dental problems, but he's 61 now and still playing as strong as he ever did. This is a bit off the subject of focal dystonia, but it really fits right in with what we're talking about. There are plenty of world class players out there who have had to start completely over on all instruments. However, I believe that there is are several underlying factors that brought these people back. 1) They couldn't see themselves doing anything else. 2) They started over with what they could do. 3) They kept working until they were back to the level that they had previously attained, or better. There's no substituting great fundamentals in ANYTHING, because if you really have an innate understanding of the fundamentals, then if something small or if something big goes wrong with your game, and playing the trombone or any other musical instrument is a game, a sport, if you will, you will know exactly what is required in order to fix it. That is the one thing that makes the truly great players great in my opinion. This all comes back to the discussions that we've had in the past on equipment, and particularly in the orchestral world, what has happened over the past 30 years or so is that the equipment has gotten bigger and heavier, and bigger, heavier equipment takes more strength to play. It's one thing when you're 18---it's another thing when your 50+. The smart players out there are always trying to refine that balance that Sam keeps talking about. They revisit the fundamentals daily, they try to do them with more and more efficiency, and they keep refining their concept. The people that DON'T do that---they're in for a shortened career. What's really amazing to me is that musicians far outlast present day athletes. Yes, injuries can set you back, but your will to come back and perform, at whatever game you play, will keep you in the game AT SOME LEVEL. However, there's no shortcuts--fundamentals, and daily maintenance, and working smart. You only have one body----learn to use it wisely. Paul Kemp Chattanooga Symphony "There is nothing like music...to fill the moment with substance." Goethe ----- Original Message ----- From: "sabutin" To: Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 10:59 AM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1858] Re: Focal Dystonia It's interesting that we tend to believe that a disease must not be pycho-somatic or "in the mind" if it is to be "real". I tend to believe that the activity of the mind is the MOST important aspect of anything. Perception is very important but is also not the only activity of the brain and CNS (central nervous system). You could say that a severe enough nervous system malfunction would result in your heart stopping. So there you go. DIRECT CONNECTION: MIND/BODY. =============================== Further: MIND/BODY/EMOTIONS Emotion is the necessary third note of the triad, one that is SO often mislabeled as "mind" in western thought. "He's mentally ill", they say, when indeed the truth of the matter is that his mind is not working well because his EMOTIONS are in total disarray. And all THREE systems are interconnected. Ever been in pain and tried to think? Tried to be happy? Ever notice that you get physically ill most often when your life isn't going well, when you are unhappy? Ever reach a dead end in trying to figure something out mentally...a computer problem, say, or a way to make and distribute enough money to take care of financial considerations...and find that you are getting angry or sad about totally unrelated things? The big circle. ALL connected. And if you could really see the sequence of events that brought about many of these chop breakdowns that are being called focal dystonia in certain circles...you would find that they BEGAN as dissatisfaction in an artistic or musical sense, As EMOTIONAL problems. I personally have never seen ANYONE whose real chop difficulties began after they had reached a fairly high level of achievement on the instrument...short of injury, old age, extended lack of time on the instrument or dental problems...who was happy with the musical scene in which they lived most of the time. Always someone with a lot of complaints. either about their own playing, their position in the scene or the scene itself. So it goes. Emotionally bothered, unable to successfully apply mental solutions to the problem... Chop problems. ========================================================== If an involuntary muscular action is occurring and it is debilitating in some way, then we've got a problem! Question is (as others have mentioned) how to proceed. We really ought to be advanced enough now not to ascribe a stigma to any disease which might have EITHER body or mind locus. Either way the disease is very real. Just ask Frank Rosolino if depression is real. . .Oh! That's right we can't! We tend to just ascribe these diseases to one big heap ("crazy"). That is certainly not the case. As we find out more and more about the mind we realize that it, too is subject to imbalances (please let's not get too into balance. . .we all want balance, we just need concrete methodology to get there) or diseases which have very physical aspects. These APPEAR, however, to be mental. We now know that many schiophrenics can lead relatively normal lives IF they stay on medication. . .and that's a big if, since they may try to go it alone without the uncomfortable meds. I think with the tendency today to be overloaded with everything--information, tasks, stuff, causes, food etc. we don't always feed ourselves enough nutrients for the soul. Could be we will see more of these hard-to-pin-down diseases. Chris Tune Yup. More attention spent on the emotions, on the soul, would do wonders. In the whole society... Later... S. -- Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC. Visit us on the web at and/or , email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by appointment only. PLEASE VISIT THE OPEN HORN, A WEB FORUM Lots of interesting discussions going on every day. An introduction to the site is available at or just come on over check it out at From: "Frank Darmiento" Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:12:52 -0700 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1882] Re: Looking for a challenge Rick - Another horn to consider (if you haven't ruled out upright horns) is a traditional British baritone horn. This is the kind used in British brass bands, not the American hybrid (which is closer to a euphonium). It has a nice, light sound. I always thought it would be a great jazz horn, but it's still too far down on my "wish list" for me to own one. Frank Frank T. Darmiento Scottsdale, Arizona frank@darmiento.com www.SackbutMusic.com --------------------------- Frank Darmiento's new jazz CD 'Sudden Impact' is now available from Summit Records at: http://www.summitrecords.com/product.tmpl?SKU=339 ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Richard E. Onofrey, Jr." Reply-To: reonofreyj@comcast.net Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:23:24 -0400 >Hello Listers, > >At the risk of getting flamed, I'm looking for a challenge. I want to >teach myself to play a valved instrument (I'm a self-taught trombone >player of moderate skill). Now, I know that the only worthwhile >instrument is a trombone -- and the only worthwhile valves are those on >a bass trombone (or at least an F-trigger). However, I'm still thinking >about purchasing a valve trombone. > >However, I don't want to buy a "traditional" valve trombone. I'm >looking more along the lines of a marching trombone, flugabone or >trombonium. I would appreciate feedback from anyone who plays/has >played these types of instruments, both positive and negative. Also, if >anyone is looking to sell an instrument in decent shape, I'd consider >that as well. > >(Ducking for cover), > >Rick Onofrey >Amateur trombonist and (apparently) professional masochist! ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.darmiento.com From: John Monroe Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:51:06 -0700 To: sctroy@erols.com Cc: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1883] Re: Looking for a challenge AND the euphy gets all the melody parts in band music! John Monroe On Aug 27, 2004, at 10:51 AM, Stephen Troy wrote: > At 01:23 PM 08/27/2004 -0400, Richard E. Onofrey, Jr. wrote: >> Hello Listers, >> >> However, I don't want to buy a "traditional" valve trombone. I'm >> looking more along the lines of a marching trombone, flugabone or >> trombonium. I would appreciate feedback from anyone who plays/has >> played these types of instruments, both positive and negative. Also, >> if >> anyone is looking to sell an instrument in decent shape, I'd consider >> that as well. >> >> Rick Onofrey > > > Any reason you excluded the euphonium from your list? It's a much more > useful instrument (unless you plan on doing the marching band circuit) > and > generally much better in tune than the god-awful things you mentioned. > > Steve Troy > From: sabutin Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 23:21:44 -0400 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1884] Re: Focal Dystonia >---snip--- > >But, unlike a child, I've read some nice material on anatomy and >psychology. EMOTIONS occur in the actual physique. William James, >in his astounding and profound, "The Principles of Psychology", >heads a chapter "THE EMOTIONS" and one section of that >chapter--"Emotion is a consequence, not the cause, of the bodily >expression." =========================================================================== William James had it 1/3 right, and I don't care HOW outstanding his work is thought to be. Do a series of simple experiments. 1-Put your face in an expression of unhappiness...or anger or happiness or any other emotion...and watch your actual emotional state change. Score 1 for Mr. James. 2-The next time you encounter a truly positive or negative emotional stimulus...a postal clerk who makes you angry, the return of a loved one from an extended absence, opening an envelope and finding unexpectged good or bad news...try to watch your bodily reactions. These are NOT the cause of the emotion, they are the RESULT. Mr. James is wrong. wrong wrong. 3- (And this is harder to do...) THINK yourself into a negative or positive state, and again...watch both your physical and emotional reactions. This is the basis of so-called "method acting", and it works. Again...the body REACTS to the emotional condition, which in this instance is entirely created by the mind. The actual situation of an actor...on a stage or set, safe as can be...has nothing whatsoever to do with his acting the part of a soldier afraid for his life during a bombardment, but as he CREATES THE SITUATION IN HIS OWN MIND the emotional and then the ensuing physical reactions take place. One for Mr., James; two against. ==================================================================== 3- > What that means is that you cannot have an emotional change without >FIRST having a physical change, a change in your body's actual >physiology. Whether it is a burst of adrenaline or other reaction >that causes, say the emotion of "fear", first you had numerous >sensory and other physical changes occur BEFORE you changed into >"fearing". ==================================================================== No. The body calmly turns a corner...and there is a charging lion!!! "Danger!!!" goes the emotional brain. What kind of danger? "A charging lion!!!" goes the mind. "Feets do your stuff!!! goes the body. The questions of fight, flight, or some OTHER response like standing stock still or realizing that indeed it is only a PICTURE of a marauding lion are not at ALL a function of "the body", unless you want to include the actual act of sensual perception. They are a function of the mental brain and its effects on the EMOTIONAL brain. A trained lion tamer will react differently from a normal person in such a situation,l for example, and if there were someone one earth who had no CONCEPTION of lion or danger, he would react differently too. =========================================================================== >es, the brain causes a raise in heart rate (even while no other >outside stimulus occurs) and then an emotional change occurs. Also, >no "fear" without some kind of predictable physical change too! We >really all should read this stuff. He talks about HABIT, not only in >terms of what it is, but in terms of what it ACHIEVES for the >species. Why do we have habit? What is "the perception of reality". >He discussed that and conciousness at length. The NAME is WILLIAM >JAMES. I'm looking at a copy out of the Britannica "The Great Books >of the Western World" series. Don't think, because it's considered >central to Western thought that it's bogus. IT'S NOT. > >So it's really BODY/MIND. . .IN THAT ORDER TOO! ============================================================= Simply not true. Body/emotions/mind in NO particular order. i am not a exactly James scholar, but I suspect this is an oversimplification of what he was saying. Or...he was dead wrong. Each brain can affect the others. Guaranteed. I have not read Mr. James's book...but I HAVE read my own being. Thoroughly. ---snip--- S. -- Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC. Visit us on the web at and/or , email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by appointment only. PLEASE VISIT THE OPEN HORN, A WEB FORUM Lots of interesting discussions going on every day. An introduction to the site is available at or just come on over check it out at From: Galen Zinn Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:40:04 -0700 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1885] Speaking Of Valved Low Brass Instruments? (was Looking For A Challenge) At 10:23 AM 8/27/2004, Richard E. Onofrey, Jr. wrote: >> >> However, I don't want to buy a "traditional" valve trombone. I'm >> looking more along the lines of a marching trombone, flugabone or >> trombonium. Is there such a thing as a 5 valved Euphonium that would provide the same range and chromatic scale possibilities as a double valved F/Gb Bass Trombone? Galen Zinn grzinn@astound.net See my trombone gear at: http://www.cafeshops.com/stonestobones =========================<>=========================== * PATIENCE * FANATICISM * PERFORMANCE * PERSEVERANCE * * DETERMINATION * OBSESSION * DEDICATION * * DISCIPLINE * DRIVING FORCE * * ATTITUDE * APTITUDE * * BALANCE * ==============<> E X C E L L E N C E <>=============== From: James Scott Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 21:53:30 -0600 To: grzinn@astound.net Cc: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1886] Re: Speaking Of Valved Low Brass Instruments? (was Looking For A Challenge) Galen - When I was in school, there was a player who had a very nice sounding German rotary valve (Meinl?) euphonium that had 5 valves like many tubas. The compensating model euphoniums are also fully chromatic, since the extra tubing that kicks in on the other valves once the 4th valve is engaged allow the player to play the "trigger notes" with the same finguring as the octave above, therby allowing a low "B" with all 4 valves. These horns still have some interesting tuning issues of their own, but serious euphonium players seem to be able to deal with them. Jim Scott Galen Zinn wrote: At 10:23 AM 8/27/2004, Richard E. Onofrey, Jr. wrote: However, I don't want to buy a "traditional" valve trombone. I'm looking more along the lines of a marching trombone, flugabone or trombonium. Is there such a thing as a 5 valved Euphonium that would provide the same range and chromatic scale possibilities as a double valved F/Gb Bass Trombone? Galen Zinn grzinn@astound.net See my trombone gear at: http://www.cafeshops.com/stonestobones =========================<>=========================== * PATIENCE * FANATICISM * PERFORMANCE * PERSEVERANCE * * DETERMINATION * OBSESSION * DEDICATION * * DISCIPLINE * DRIVING FORCE * * ATTITUDE * APTITUDE * * BALANCE * ==============<> E X C E L L E N C E <>=============== From: Raymond Horton Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 00:07:15 -0400 To: grzinn@astound.net Cc: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1887] Re: Speaking Of Valved Low Brass Instruments? (was Looking For A Challenge) A 4-valved compensating euphonium does exactly that.. RBH Galen Zinn wrote: >Is there such a thing as a 5 valved Euphonium that would provide the same >range and chromatic scale possibilities as a double valved F/Gb Bass >Trombone? > >Galen Zinn >grzinn@astound.net > >See my trombone gear at: >http://www.cafeshops.com/stonestobones > >=========================<>=========================== >* PATIENCE * FANATICISM * PERFORMANCE * PERSEVERANCE * > * DETERMINATION * OBSESSION * DEDICATION * > * DISCIPLINE * DRIVING FORCE * > * ATTITUDE * APTITUDE * > * BALANCE * >==============<> E X C E L L E N C E <>=============== > > > > >