Subject: TROMBONE-L digest 97 Date: Tuesday, July 6, 2004 12:01 AM From: Multiple recipients of list To: Multiple recipients of list TROMBONE-L Digest 97 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Piano player stories by Randy Fendrick 2) Yamaha MC-7 clip-on microphone question by Robert Slaven 3) Re: Happy 4th by "Phil Brink" 4) Re: Happy 4th by "Adrian Drover" 5) Re: Happy 4th by "don.fitzsimons" 6) OTJ Classifieds Update - 7/5/2004 by Chris Waage 7) Bach LT16M by "Keith Marr" 8) An early Superbone on a clip on Letterman? by "Raymond Horton" 9) shareware program for listening to and notating audio files by "Raymond Horton" 10) Re: shareware program for listening to and notating audio files by Elliott Moxley 11) Re: shareware program for listening to and notating audio files by "Adrian Drover" 12) Re: An early Superbone on a clip on Letterman? by Eric & Candice Swanson 13) Old superbones and such by "Dean Hubbard" 14) Re: Old superbones and such by Phil Burton 15) Re: Old superbones and such by "Adrian Drover" 16) Wooden bones? by "Dean Hubbard" 17) Re: An early Superbone on a clip on Letterman? by "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" 18) Transcribe by "Bill Dinwiddie" 19) Re: los angeles, anyone? by "Chris Tune" 20) Re: Bach LT16M by "Chris Tune" 21) Speaking of wooden instruments... by "Richard Human, Jr." 22) Re: Wooden bones? by Michael Shoshani 23) Re: shareware program for listening to and notating audio files by "Frank Darmiento" 24) Strength [was Re: Re: Bach LT16M] by alex iles 25) Re: Old superbones and such by "Raymond Horton" 26) Re: Wooden bones? by "Raymond Horton" 27) Re: Transcribe by "Raymond Horton" 28) Re: Old superbones and such by "Raymond Horton" 29) RE: Strength [was Re: Re: Bach LT16M] by "Daniel Pliskin" 30) Re: Strength [was Re: Re: Bach LT16M] by "The Millars" 31) Re: Transcribe by JFBermann@aol.com From: Randy Fendrick Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 22:35:11 -0700 To: Dixielandjazz@ml.islandnet.com, trombone-L Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1095] Piano player stories Playing a gig this afternoon when an old friend walked in who is also a piano player. Different players were telling stories about this guy and by far the best was one night he was working a quartet when a patron walked up and asked the pianist to play something for the younger set. Without hesitation he said sure, and launched into "Rock a bye Baby!" later, Randy Fendrick, Southside Chicago Seven Bakersfield Symphony Orchestra From: Robert Slaven Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 22:54:20 -0700 To: "'Trombone L'" Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1096] Yamaha MC-7 clip-on microphone question Y'all might remember I posted a while back asking about cheap^Winexpensive microphones to use with the pop-funk band I'm now playing with. I've found a little beastie from Yamaha called the MC-7. (See http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product/winds/product/others/access/mc7/index.htm.) It looks like it might fit the bill beautifully, esp. since it looks like I can buy it online for about US$70 ~= C$100. Here's the tricky bit, though: Mic Cable Length 3m, Monaural Mini Plug Note: The MC7 is a high quality condenser mic and requires a 5~10V phantom power source from the pre-amp or recorder being used. It is perfect for use with Yamaha's Personal Studio (ST7) or Studio Mixer (SX6). For use with other equipment, please consult your owner's manual for compatibility. Now, I'm thinking, surely to heaven SOMEONE out there has used this mic without either the ST7 or SX6 (pricey little beasties, those, and not what I need, either). I suspect there must be some kind of funky cable or adapter or dongle that would take a 3-pin XLR connection and pipe it with phantom power into the little mono mini plug this thing uses. Anyone? I wouldn't want to buy it and then not be able to use it without buying a lot of other junk. If anyone knows anything about this, please let me know. I'll be in Seattle Wed-Sat and may do a bit of shopping. Thanks! Robert From: "Phil Brink" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 01:29:51 -0500 To: , , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1097] Re: Happy 4th They call it something else - the same amount in metric terms... 700 ml? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Earl Needham" To: "Phil Brink" ; ; Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 8:03 PM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1094] Re: Happy 4th > > You mean I can't buy a fifth of Scotch any more??? > > Earl > > At 02:31 PM 7/4/2004, Phil Brink wrote: > >No, they don't use fifths any more - it's metric! > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Steve Beck" > >To: ; > >Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 11:28 AM > >Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1090] Re: Happy 4th > > > > > > > From: "Earl Needham" > > > > > BTW, do you have a 4th of July in Scotland??? > > > > > > Nah, they go right from the third to the fifth. > > > > From: "Adrian Drover" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:08:39 +0100 To: , , , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1098] Re: Happy 4th From: "Phil Brink" > From: "Earl Needham" > > You mean I can't buy a fifth of Scotch any more??? > They call it something else - the same amount in metric terms... 700 ml? We've been metric for many years now, but still drive a "mile" to buy a "pound" of steak and have a "pint" of Guinness. The only thing that seems to have changed is the temperature scale, tho' it's still cold in July. I don't think my 9 foot Bb trombone has changed either. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk From: "don.fitzsimons" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 08:38:07 -0400 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1099] Re: Happy 4th ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Brink" To: ; ; Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 2:29 AM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1097] Re: Happy 4th > They call it something else - the same amount in metric terms... 700 ml? If that was a guess, it was quite good: You seek the scotch bottles of 750ml volume. From: Chris Waage Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 08:21:10 -0500 To: Trombone-L , brass_list Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1100] OTJ Classifieds Update - 7/5/2004 The Online Trombone Journal Classifieds - http://www.trombone.org/classifieds - have been updated as of 8:20 AM CDT on July 5, 2004. - - - - - Thank you for using the OTJ Classifieds! - - - - - OTJ Classifieds Frequently Asked Questions http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/faq.asp OTJ Gift Shoppe: http://www.cafepress.com/cp/store/store.aspx?storeid=trombones If you have any questions or comments about the Online Trombone Journal Classifieds, please contact me at chris@trombone.org. Chris Waage -- Chris Waage, Bass Trombonist The Online Trombone Journal www. trombone.org From: "Keith Marr" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 14:45:38 +0100 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1101] Bach LT16M Any views on the Bach LT16M? I have a colleague who's seen one for £999 secondhand and wants me to go look at it for him. He's looking for a decent horn to play 1st in big band. I have no experience of Bachs, being a King/Holton bass player, so all views gratefully received. Cheers! Keith in Bb/F/D --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.707 / Virus Database: 463 - Release Date: 15/06/2004 From: "Raymond Horton" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 10:09:57 -0400 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1102] An early Superbone on a clip on Letterman? On the Letterman show, on Friday nights, as Dave intoduces "Stump the Band" (where the band members display some great singing and song writing/song parody talent, by the way), they run some old, very short big band and small combo film clips starting with a Benny Goodman clip. (No sound with the clips - the Late Show Band is playing the old Carson show theme). I've taped this twice now. The third or fouth clip, (the one after a drummer smoking a cigarette), has a trombonist on the right side of the screen playing, what looks, to me, like a combination valve and slide trombone! It appears to be an old clip - probably 40's. Did one of these exist that early? The player appears to be holding the horn with his heft hand clamped around the valve section (not playing the valves) - and is using the slide. It's not clear, since the clip is so short and the horn is nearly off the screen, but it looks as though the valves and slide may have been designed to be played alternatively with the right hand, not simultaneously, with both hands, like the Superbone. Has anyone heard of such an instrument? If you are curious, tape it this Friday night, unless the show is in reruns this week. "Stump the Band" comes right after the monologue, I assume each Friday. Ray Horton Bass Trombonist Louisville Orchestra From: "Raymond Horton" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 10:14:40 -0400 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1103] shareware program for listening to and notating audio files Sometime last fall or so, someone on this list recommended a great shareware program for listening to audio files that allowed the user to slow the file down, to repeat short sections, etc. The program even included a piano keyboard onscreen. It was designed to help notate music from CDs and other recordings. I lost track of that program. Does anyone remember the name of it? Thanks, Ray Horton From: Elliott Moxley Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 11:13:42 -0700 To: RayHorton@insightbb.com Cc: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1104] Re: shareware program for listening to and notating audio files Conn made a combination slide/valve trombone in the earlier part of the 1900s, there was one sitting on a stand at Dillon's music a year or so ago. I didn't really pay to much attention to it, though and I'm not sure if they still have it. Sue Raymond Horton wrote: Sometime last fall or so, someone on this list recommended a great shareware program for listening to audio files that allowed the user to slow the file down, to repeat short sections, etc. The program even included a piano keyboard onscreen. It was designed to help notate music from CDs and other recordings. I lost track of that program. Does anyone remember the name of it? Thanks, Ray Horton From: "Adrian Drover" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 16:00:32 +0100 To: "Ray Horton" , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1105] Re: shareware program for listening to and notating audio files From: Raymond Horton Sometime last fall or so, someone on this list recommended a great shareware program for listening to audio files that allowed the user to slow the file down, to repeat short sections, etc. The program even included a piano keyboard onscreen. It was designed to help notate music from CDs and other recordings. I lost track of that program. Does anyone remember the name of it? Raymond, I think you may be referring to Transcribe, which I now have after recommendation from Dr. Wayne. I'd like now to take this opportunity to second his recommendation. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk From: Eric & Candice Swanson Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 10:00:50 -0600 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1106] Re: An early Superbone on a clip on Letterman? Raymond Horton wrote: On the Letterman show...... ......third or fourth clip,......a trombonist on the right side of the screen playing, what looks, to me, like a combination valve and slide trombone! It appears to be an old clip - probably 40's. Did one of these exist that early? Ray, I have heard that Conn made such a horn years ago (maybe in the 1920s), before Holton came up with the Superbone (in the 1970s), but I have never seen one. Eric From: "Dean Hubbard" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 08:24:07 -0700 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1107] Old superbones and such Friends, Conn did make a superbone type instrument (valves and slide) in the 20s. Dillion Music had one for sale some time back. Brad Gowans, a fine jazz player, used one in the 1930s. I think this shows that almost everything has been tried on our instrument. Almost nothing is new. Here's a short list: Two valved bass trombones have been around since the 1920s. Plastic (Bakelite) mouthpieces go back to the teens. Wooden mouthpieces go back to Alpine horns. Aysemtrical mouthpieces are currently hot, H.L. Clarke used one with Sousa. Yamaha has come out with Sterling Silver mouthpieces, Almont was making them in the 1930s. Wooden mutes were used until metal mutes took over. Now we are back to wood. The list goes on................................... Truly, Dean Hubbard From: Phil Burton Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 10:19:12 -0600 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1108] Re: Old superbones and such During my travels between Great Falls, Montana and Southern Ca. over the last several years, I have stopped in at a music repair shop in Idaho Falls, ID. (sorry I have forgotten the name of the place) I browsed around at some of the instruments he had for sale, and I might add he was VERY proud (asking big bucks) of them. The owner/repairman showed me a combination valve/slide Bass Trombone. I believe it was an older Bach, and it had 4 rotor valves between the slide, and mouthpiece. I believe he was asking 2K for it, but in retrospect perhaps not that out of line, considering the labor involved in contstructing and tuning such a beast. He had built it for a customer, who dropped if off a bandstand, and the insurance company totaled it out. He built another horn for him, and rebuilt/restored the original. Phil From: "Adrian Drover" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 17:36:23 +0100 To: , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1109] Re: Old superbones and such From: Dean Hubbard Conn did make a superbone type instrument (valves and slide) in the 20s. Dillion Music had one for sale some time back. Brad Gowans, a fine jazz player, used one in the 1930s. I think this shows that almost everything has been tried on our instrument. Almost nothing is new. Here's a short list: Two valved bass trombones have been around since the 1920s. Plastic (Bakelite) mouthpieces go back to the teens. Wooden mouthpieces go back to Alpine horns. Aysemtrical mouthpieces are currently hot, H.L. Clarke used one with Sousa. Yamaha has come out with Sterling Silver mouthpieces, Almont was making them in the 1930s. Wooden mutes were used until metal mutes took over. Now we are back to wood. So nobody has yet produced a wooden trombone? A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk From: "Dean Hubbard" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 09:47:40 -0700 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1110] Wooden bones? Adrian wrote: "So nobody has yet produced a wooden trombone?" Frank Holton made some trombone bells out of wood. It is said that they worked very well but were expensive to make. (On these models I would use Pledge instead of Trombontine.) I remember in the mid sixties or so that Jay & Kai used fiberglass bells on their Kings. A trumpet friend in Los Angles uses, on occasion, a glass bell on his horn. From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 12:12:24 -0500 (EST) To: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1111] Re: An early Superbone on a clip on Letterman? I asked Henry Meredith about a "superbone" in his collection (Plumbing Factory Annex): It's a Besson, possibly c. 1900-1910. A Besson expert can pinpoint the serial number. HM1874 Valve/Slide Trombone a la Holton "MF Superbone"!, in Bb tenor, tuning slide has LP sleeves. Bell engraved "Class A/ 50 Medals of Honour/ FB [monogram]/ Besson & Co./ "Prototype"/ 98 Euston Road/ London/ England/ */ Agents/ J.L. Orme & Son/ Ottawa" with "City of Kaslo/ B.C." added beneath. On 2nd valve, "Besson & Co./*/BrevetŽ" in oval, & "88914" serial number. All brass. No case or mouthpiece. --- Carole Nowicke cnowicke@indiana.edu From: "Bill Dinwiddie" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 12:55:05 -0500 To: "List Trombone" Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1112] Transcribe Ray Horton, Hi Ray. This is from my copy of Transcribe. You can use the program for 30 days for free, then it shuts down. If you want to keep it and use it, you have to pay the $40.00 fee. I think the program works pretty well and is certainly worth the money if you do a lot of this kind of work. Bill Dinwiddie ********************************************************************************************************************** You can download the latest version of Transcribe! from www.seventhstring.demon.co.uk You can contact Seventh String Software by email at andy@seventhstring.demon.co.uk If you have not registered Transcribe! then each time you launch the application you get the "Unregistered Copy Of Transcribe!" dialog. Once it is registered, you don't get this dialog. There are two steps to registering Transcribe! : EITHER : Register online via a secure server (RegSoft) with a credit card. The internet address is http://www.regsoft.net/purchase.php3?productid=9500 or if you cannot use secure http then http://www.regsoft.net/purchase_nonsecure.php3?productid=9500. Note that if you prefer not to give your credit card number over the internet then you can still use these links. You will find at the top of Regsoft's page are links for Phone and Fax registration. OR : Fill out the Registration Form and mail it to us, along with your registration fee. OR : By Phone: You can register via a Voice Order Line at 1-877-REGSOFT (1-877-734-7638) (Non-US users must dial 770 319-2718 (USA)). You will need the RegSoft "Product ID #" which, for the Windows version of Transcribe!, is 9500. OR : By Fax: You can register by fax at 1-800-886-6030. Non-US users must dial 1-208-279-3837 (USA) except in the UK where you can dial (0870) 132-2485. You will need the RegSoft "Product ID #" which, for the Windows version of Transcribe!, is 9500. From: "Chris Tune" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:41:51 -0700 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1113] Re: los angeles, anyone? There is tons of (are?) stuff going on in Los Angeles. There are also numerous good teachers. There is everything from amateur groups who rehearse and are usually happy to have players come in who aren't that good, to very high calibre groups and pro work. I'd say start out by finding the nearest community college near you. There is one in just about every community. What specific town within Los Angeles are you living in? Chris Tune - Los Angeles (more specifically near Van Nuys, Sherman Oaks and Studio City) Hope to see you around. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jimkinkella1@aol.com To: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 4:35 PM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1093] los angeles, anyone? hey everybody i've just moved into the LA area, and i'm trying to find out what's going on around town. mostly, i'm trying to find out what kind of playing opportunities there are: rehearsal bands, college bands looking for help, that kind of thing. also, i'd like to see who's around for lessons (both jazz and classical), i've been playing for 20+ years (i'm still waiting for that year that i play great!) but i simply haven't been able to play or practice much over the past few years, although i've never completely quit. any kind of input would be greatly appreciated. thanks! jim kinkella direct email: jimkinkella1@aol.com From: "Chris Tune" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:54:13 -0700 To: , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1114] Re: Bach LT16M Perfectly good for a strong player. Dick Nash uses one. I used one last night for lead (weird section . . .only two bones). A little on the dark side for this kind of application. John Sandhagen reminds me that a ,508 bore is really very much the same as the Bach 12 which is .500 bore. There may be differerences in the lead pipe. . . If not a very strong player, or trying to use a larger size mouthpiece (I use a Bach 12C. . .I know a lot of players like a larger mouthpiece) may be better to get a smaller, brighter horn so as to cut through. May depend upon the player's concept of lead trombone in a big band. I want to be able to be heard riding on top of the section and I want to do this without having to work too hard. Not fun after 3 1/2 sets to be playing the shout chorus after struggling all night. It all depends upon what else the player might do with this horn. This horn is particularly good sounding alone or in a small "rock band" style combo. If the horn is in merely good shape this is probably a little steep of a price 1000 pounds is probably around 1,800 dollars US. If the horn is in immaculate condition and if you find that small bore horns are rarely available, maybe this is a good deal. Chris Tune ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Marr To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 6:45 AM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1101] Bach LT16M Any views on the Bach LT16M? I have a colleague who's seen one for £999 secondhand and wants me to go look at it for him. He's looking for a decent horn to play 1st in big band. I have no experience of Bachs, being a King/Holton bass player, so all views gratefully received. Cheers! Keith in Bb/F/D --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.707 / Virus Database: 463 - Release Date: 15/06/2004 From: "Richard Human, Jr." Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 14:05:00 -0500 To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1115] Speaking of wooden instruments... Build a Serpent or Ophicleide http://www.serpentwebsite.com/SQPT_concept.htm RH ----- -- ----- -- ----- -- ----- -- ----- -- ----- -- ----- -- ----- -- ----- Dr. Richard Human, Jr. richard@trombone.org Publisher & Webmaster Online Trombone Journal A web site for Trombonists http://www.trombone.org Assistant Professor Department of Music Education Mississippi State University 662.325.8021 http://www.msstate.edu/dept/musiced/ From: Michael Shoshani Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 14:17:53 -0500 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1116] Re: Wooden bones? We've secretly replaced "Dean Hubbard" 's message with Folger's Crystals. Let's see if anyone notices: >Frank Holton made some trombone bells out of wood. It is said that they worked very well but were expensive to make. I heard just the opposite...I was trying to date a Revelation trombone, so I called the factory in Elkhorn about a month and a half ago. Got someone who had been working there for over 40 years and had stories to tell; we spoke about bell materials for a few minutes, and he volunteered that Frank Holton had made bells out of wood. I asked him how they sounded, and his response was more or less "They say that it sounded real good for about three-four feet, then the sound just stopped!", and started laughing. Michael Shoshani Chicago IL From: "Frank Darmiento" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 12:54:37 -0700 To: , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1117] Re: shareware program for listening to and notating audio files Ray - I bought something called The Amazing Slow-Downer, which I think was one of the items mentioned on the list. There may have been two, because I vaguely remember looking at two different products. There may have been a share-ware version but I ended up purchasing the full version for a nominal fee. It's available from: www.ronimusic.com It seems to work fine, but I haven't had occasion to use it much since I bought it. However, based on my brief overview of the software after I installed it I would recommend it for slowing down audio files. I don't think it has a piano keyboard screen associated with the program. Frank T. Darmiento Scottsdale, Arizona frank@darmiento.com www.SackbutMusic.com --------------------------- Frank Darmiento's new jazz CD 'Sudden Impact' is now available from Summit Records at: http://www.summitrecords.com/product.tmpl?SKU=339 ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Raymond Horton" Reply-To: RayHorton@insightbb.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 10:14:40 -0400 >Sometime last fall or so, someone on this list recommended a great shareware program for listening to audio files that allowed the user to slow the file down, to repeat short sections, etc. The program even included a piano keyboard onscreen. It was designed to help notate music from CDs and other recordings. I lost track of that program. Does anyone remember the name of it? > >Thanks, > >Ray Horton > ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.darmiento.com From: alex iles Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 13:41:49 -0800 To: Chris Tune , Trombone List Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1118] Strength [was Re: Re: Bach LT16M] Chris and all, When I saw you post, Chris, it made me start to question something I have been ignoring! You've hit on something that made go--"wait a minute!!" about my own way of thinking! I don't mean to pick on you specifically here at ALL!! Actually, you answered Keith's original question using many ideas I might have used 10 minutes ago!!. Your post made me think about my own view of "strength" as it relates to brass playing. Speaking for myself, I FEEL "weaker" on a bigger horn/mouthpiece on longer and harder blowing situations. I don't like playing large bore equipment on most Broadway style shows, for instance. I get tired faster whenever I do and I always figured it was due to my own "weakness" on that set-up. But isn't there an inconsistency in this way thinking? For instance, let's consider "strength" the way most of us do--weightlifting. You have to be able to lift [to use obvious Schilke trombone mouthpiece analogies!!] 47 pounds before you can lift 60 pounds. You build up to a BIGGER weight. Conversely, someone who can lift 60 lbs can easily pick up 47lbs. In weight training, you can't just jump over one weight you CAN'T lift in order to get to another which you CAN--unless you really want a hernia or something!! You see where I am going with this? I think we choose equipment according to things besides strength. Is a tuba player "stronger" than a trumpet player just because he plays a bigger mouthpiece? And is a large bore tenor player have "stronger" chops than a small bore player? I don't really know the answers, but I am thinking the difference in equipment choices might have little if not absolutely NOTHING to do with strength the way we think of it [that is, in the weightlifting way], but more to do with musical reasons, acoustics, use of air, comfort, coordination, feel, psychology, etc... Maybe I feel tired on large bore tenors in pit bands because I am more used to playing gigs like that on my smaller tenor! I guess I don't really know the answer at all!! Ability has become equated with strength in many instances in the western world. I guess that is largely part of our BIGGER IS BETTER American culture. I think the B.I.B view of strength is one of the reasons so many band directors and teachers tempt their promising younger players to jump into big bore tenors...."Gee, you sound STRONG enough to fill that Bach 42 up now!!" I guess, to extend the B.I.B type thinking--Will we all eventually become "strong enough" to work our way "up" to tubas and contrabass trombones??!! We all agree that equipment choices vary from player to player and from musical situation to musical situation, but sometimes the variables and rationale we use to assess those choices can become pretty confusing. At least to me!! Maybe that is why I haven't switched equipment that much in the last 20 years!!! Best wishes, Alex PS Dick is now playing a Bach 36 on almost everything! He played his own arrangement of "Body and Soul" for him soloing with 6 bones the other day at Lloyd Ulyate's memorial--stunning!! Not an ounce of "tub" in the sound!! ============================================================ Chris Tune wrote: Perfectly good for a strong player. Dick Nash uses one. I used one last night for lead (weird section . . .only two bones). A little on the dark side for this kind of application. John Sandhagen reminds me that a ,508 bore is really very much the same as the Bach 12 which is .500 bore. There may be differerences in the lead pipe. . . If not a very strong player, or trying to use a larger size mouthpiece (I use a Bach 12C. . .I know a lot of players like a larger mouthpiece) may be better to get a smaller, brighter horn so as to cut through. May depend upon the player's concept of lead trombone in a big band. I want to be able to be heard riding on top of the section and I want to do this without having to work too hard. Not fun after 3 1/2 sets to be playing the shout chorus after struggling all night. It all depends upon what else the player might do with this horn. This horn is particularly good sounding alone or in a small "rock band" style combo. If the horn is in merely good shape this is probably a little steep of a price 1000 pounds is probably around 1,800 dollars US. If the horn is in immaculate condition and if you find that small bore horns are rarely available, maybe this is a good deal. Chris Tune ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Marr To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 6:45 AM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1101] Bach LT16M Any views on the Bach LT16M? I have a colleague who's seen one for £999 secondhand and wants me to go look at it for him. He's looking for a decent horn to play 1st in big band. I have no experience of Bachs, being a King/Holton bass player, so all views gratefully received. Cheers! Keith in Bb/F/D --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.707 / Virus Database: 463 - Release Date: 15/06/2004 From: "Raymond Horton" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 16:58:41 -0400 To: , , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1119] Re: Old superbones and such Holton. 1911. The model number was TR-UNK-01, I believe. So nobody has yet produced a wooden trombone? A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk From: "Raymond Horton" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 17:00:23 -0400 To: , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1120] Re: Wooden bones? I tried to make a joke, and it turns out it was half true. I should learn. RH ----- Original Message ----- From: Dean Hubbard To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 12:47 PM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1110] Wooden bones? Adrian wrote: "So nobody has yet produced a wooden trombone?" Frank Holton made some trombone bells out of wood. It is said that they worked very well but were expensive to make. (On these models I would use Pledge instead of Trombontine.) I remember in the mid sixties or so that Jay & Kai used fiberglass bells on their Kings. A trumpet friend in Los Angles uses, on occasion, a glass bell on his horn. From: "Raymond Horton" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 17:11:38 -0400 To: "List Trombone" Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1121] Re: Transcribe Thanks to all for the info on "Trancribe". That was the program I had in mind. I forwarded it to the interested friend. Ray Horton From: "Raymond Horton" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 17:13:45 -0400 To: , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1122] Re: Old superbones and such Thanks to all for the info on Conn combo slide-valve trombone, and the Besson prototype of same. As I suspected, it shows there is nothing new under the sun! Ray Horton. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dean Hubbard To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 11:24 AM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1107] Old superbones and such Friends, Conn did make a superbone type instrument (valves and slide) in the 20s. Dillion Music had one for sale some time back. Brad Gowans, a fine jazz player, used one in the 1930s. I think this shows that almost everything has been tried on our instrument. Almost nothing is new. Here's a short list: Two valved bass trombones have been around since the 1920s. Plastic (Bakelite) mouthpieces go back to the teens. Wooden mouthpieces go back to Alpine horns. Aysemtrical mouthpieces are currently hot, H.L. Clarke used one with Sousa. Yamaha has come out with Sterling Silver mouthpieces, Almont was making them in the 1930s. Wooden mutes were used until metal mutes took over. Now we are back to wood. The list goes on................................... Truly, Dean Hubbard From: "Daniel Pliskin" Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 22:21:31 +0000 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1123] RE: Strength [was Re: Re: Bach LT16M] When I decided to start playing progressively larger mouthpieces, it was because I felt that having the muscles to play a large mouthpiece might help me reduce the pressure I was using on my lips. It seemed that I was using that pressure to make up for the lack of lip muscles, beyond the rim. But now I canāt tell you if that scheme worked, because I wouldnāt dream of going back to a smaller mouthpiece. I love the sound of a large mouthpiece, played with a small-bore trombone. DanP _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page ö FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ From: "The Millars" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 15:35:35 -0700 To: , "Chris Tune" , "Trombone List" Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1124] Re: Strength [was Re: Re: Bach LT16M] Alex and list, Good food for thought, Alex. Even though there are no definitive answers to questions such as this, it's always good to give thought to the way that we do things. I play two mouthpieces (one at a time!) on bass trombone (I won't get into the tenors now). Even though I play on both on any given day, sometimes work scenarios where I am playing just one mouthpiece will result in my being less than 100% comfortable on the other one for the moment. Like you, Alex, I think about how this "feels". When I've been playing the smaller mouthpiece on commercial stuff and go to the large one, I feel like the strength of the outer part of my embouchure - the part not buzzing on the smaller mouthpiece - is not all there (if you visualize embouchure strength and focus as concentric circles, like an archery target, I'd have one circle that wasn't as strong as the rest). In contrast, if I've been playing the larger mouthpiece on orchestral work, and then go smaller, I feel like my focus and flexibility isn't what it usually is. Years ago, when I was moving up from small to large tenor to bass trombone, my challenges came from the additional AIR, not chop strength, required. The trick is to increase the air flow and the embouchure strength while keeping a handle on focus and flexibility. And if you're of the school of "use the right tool for the job" (a school Alex and I both went to!), it takes some work to keep that different equipment behaving as it should! MWM ============================================= Michael W. Millar Valencia, CA millar@music.org ----- Original Message ----- From: alex iles To: Chris Tune ; Trombone List Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 2:41 PM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1118] Strength [was Re: Re: Bach LT16M] Chris and all, When I saw you post, Chris, it made me start to question something I have been ignoring! You've hit on something that made go--"wait a minute!!" about my own way of thinking! I don't mean to pick on you specifically here at ALL!! Actually, you answered Keith's original question using many ideas I might have used 10 minutes ago!!. Your post made me think about my own view of "strength" as it relates to brass playing. Speaking for myself, I FEEL "weaker" on a bigger horn/mouthpiece on longer and harder blowing situations. I don't like playing large bore equipment on most Broadway style shows, for instance. I get tired faster whenever I do and I always figured it was due to my own "weakness" on that set-up. But isn't there an inconsistency in this way thinking? For instance, let's consider "strength" the way most of us do--weightlifting. You have to be able to lift [to use obvious Schilke trombone mouthpiece analogies!!] 47 pounds before you can lift 60 pounds. You build up to a BIGGER weight. Conversely, someone who can lift 60 lbs can easily pick up 47lbs. In weight training, you can't just jump over one weight you CAN'T lift in order to get to another which you CAN--unless you really want a hernia or something!! You see where I am going with this? I think we choose equipment according to things besides strength. Is a tuba player "stronger" than a trumpet player just because he plays a bigger mouthpiece? And is a large bore tenor player have "stronger" chops than a small bore player? I don't really know the answers, but I am thinking the difference in equipment choices might have little if not absolutely NOTHING to do with strength the way we think of it [that is, in the weightlifting way], but more to do with musical reasons, acoustics, use of air, comfort, coordination, feel, psychology, etc... Maybe I feel tired on large bore tenors in pit bands because I am more used to playing gigs like that on my smaller tenor! I guess I don't really know the answer at all!! Ability has become equated with strength in many instances in the western world. I guess that is largely part of our BIGGER IS BETTER American culture. I think the B.I.B view of strength is one of the reasons so many band directors and teachers tempt their promising younger players to jump into big bore tenors...."Gee, you sound STRONG enough to fill that Bach 42 up now!!" I guess, to extend the B.I.B type thinking--Will we all eventually become "strong enough" to work our way "up" to tubas and contrabass trombones??!! We all agree that equipment choices vary from player to player and from musical situation to musical situation, but sometimes the variables and rationale we use to assess those choices can become pretty confusing. At least to me!! Maybe that is why I haven't switched equipment that much in the last 20 years!!! Best wishes, Alex PS Dick is now playing a Bach 36 on almost everything! He played his own arrangement of "Body and Soul" for him soloing with 6 bones the other day at Lloyd Ulyate's memorial--stunning!! Not an ounce of "tub" in the sound!! ============================================================ Chris Tune wrote: Perfectly good for a strong player. Dick Nash uses one. I used one last night for lead (weird section . . .only two bones). A little on the dark side for this kind of application. John Sandhagen reminds me that a ,508 bore is really very much the same as the Bach 12 which is .500 bore. There may be differerences in the lead pipe. . . If not a very strong player, or trying to use a larger size mouthpiece (I use a Bach 12C. . .I know a lot of players like a larger mouthpiece) may be better to get a smaller, brighter horn so as to cut through. May depend upon the player's concept of lead trombone in a big band. I want to be able to be heard riding on top of the section and I want to do this without having to work too hard. Not fun after 3 1/2 sets to be playing the shout chorus after struggling all night. It all depends upon what else the player might do with this horn. This horn is particularly good sounding alone or in a small "rock band" style combo. If the horn is in merely good shape this is probably a little steep of a price 1000 pounds is probably around 1,800 dollars US. If the horn is in immaculate condition and if you find that small bore horns are rarely available, maybe this is a good deal. Chris Tune ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Marr To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 6:45 AM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1101] Bach LT16M Any views on the Bach LT16M? I have a colleague who's seen one for £999 secondhand and wants me to go look at it for him. He's looking for a decent horn to play 1st in big band. I have no experience of Bachs, being a King/Holton bass player, so all views gratefully received. Cheers! Keith in Bb/F/D --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.707 / Virus Database: 463 - Release Date: 15/06/2004 From: JFBermann@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 20:27:19 EDT To: RayHorton@insightbb.com, TROMBONE-L@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:1125] Re: Transcribe Hi Ray, Jim Self, west coast tuba great owns a superbone bass trombone. The bell section has a single valve. I thought Larry Minick had made it. He has a great website, if you do a google search you should be able to find it, I don't have it handy. He has photos of all his horns. Jim