Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 27 Feb 2004 to 28 Feb 2004 (#2004-60) Date: Sunday, February 29, 2004 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 17 messages totalling 738 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Bass Trombone website (2) 2. The List, the List Monitor, and Some History 3. Getzen Bass? On E-Bay (4) 4. re-subscribing (2) 5. Slide Brace for sale 6. Reka Super Slide (2) 7. Business Cards 8. re-subscribing (value/future of list) (4) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 06:10:29 EST From: Johannes Mader Subject: Bass Trombone website Hi, Frank Moewes, the webmaster of the German site www.bassposaunen.de, has started an Englisch version. www.basstrombones.com Please fell free to check it. (especially the grammar police ;-)) Johannes ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 09:48:06 -0600 From: Chris Waage Subject: The List, the List Monitor, and Some History Friends: There was a point where I served as list monitor, however, that is long past. Any and all decisions regarding the trombone-l was discussed with Eric Nicklas and was done with his knowledge and approval. At any point which it could possibly seem like a conflict of interested, I removed myself from the process and had Eric deal directly with the situation. Was it worth it? No. I had to deal with being subscribed to pornographic web sites, harrassing and threatening e-mails, having my ISP contacted stating that I was harrassing and spamming people, and even being threatened with having my name added to a list of known pedophile sexual offenders by Hary Kozlowski. And, before any of you cry "foul" on the mention of Kozlowski's name, I can provide you a copy of the e-mail in which he made the statement. I put up with the stupid, petty nonsense that really didn't matter, such as disputes between list members off-list which resulted in each member asking to have the other removed. List members accusing each other of racism, anti-semitism, and a host of other real or imagined sins. There's an old trusim: Never argue with an idiot, for they drag you down to their level, then beat you because of experience. Rather than being able to maintain a professional detachment, I found myself taking the nonsense personally. When it finally became too much, I passed the duty back to Eric and others helped out. I have been accused of being closed-minded because of my association with the Online Trombone Journal. As for accusing me of being close-minded, Mr. Burtis is entitled to his opinion. However, I would remind him that there is a great difference between opinion and fact, and however strongly stated, opinions are not fact regardless of the strength of the belief in the opinion. If Richard Human cares to comment, I'm sure he could relate multiple instances where he and I have disagreed over matters concerning the Online Trombone Journal. These differences of opinion have been discussed with civility and respect, as any discussion between adults should. As with any journalistic endeavor, however, the final decisions rest with the publisher, and with the Online Trombone Journal, that is Dr. Human. I have the utmost respect for him, even when we do not see eye-to-eye, whether regarding the Online Trombone Journal, politics, computers or life in general. However, it is our diversity of backgrounds and beliefs which helps to make the Online Trombone Journal one of the most-visited trombone-related sites online. Having been a list member for over seven years, I can say that I know the list's history quite well. About six years ago, the list was quite vibrant, then became plagued by individuals who were being quite abusive several high-profile list members, both on- and off-list. There was a time where members left en masse, then eventually came back. I can think of a huge number of trombone-l members who have left or simply quit posting because of the attacks. The "trolls" were identified, and removed, and the list moved on. However, over the past five years, the spark that made the list special has not been there. Why? Perhaps it was the list monitor. That's why the position is gone. There were those who complained about having a "monitored list," but if you will recall, there were seldom subscription issues with the list during this time. I'm sure someone will quickly bring up the issue of censorship. The list has never been censored in the strict sense. When a member hits "send" on an e-mail, the message goes to the list-processing software and then on to the entire list with no human intervention. However, the act of asking list members to keep discussions on trombones and related issues is not censorship. It is simply guiding the list to the discussions for which it is intended. This list was originally founded as a part of Eric Nicklas' graduate work. I was fortunate to actually be a part of the volunteer group which helped with the evaluation of the data when Eric was working on his thesis. It was quite interesting to read the early posts on the trombone-l from members whom I did not know as well as posts I had read and forgotten. The humor, the sense of community, and the wealth of knowledge which was being shared through the list was incredible. I know that my personal growth as a musician in general and as a trombonist has profited greatly from the list. I look back at those days and wish for their return. Perhaps is is true that the world has changed. We're in a time of information overload, and most people do not have the time or desire to sort through it all. We've been conditioned to think in sound-bites and headlines, rarely digging beneath the surface to see the true essence of a story. In the past, the trombone-l was one of the areas in which the topics were dissected and discussed, argued and debated. Sure, there were the "what does so-and-so play" and "is Slide-O-Mix or Trombotine better?" debates, but there was also some meat on the table, rather than just a sampling of hors d'oevures. Perhaps the list is drawing to a close. While it would be greatly lamented, I would venture that something will fill the void, be it another list, more practice time, or some other online or offline diversion. It would, to be, be as though an old friend has gone, and it would be missed. However, life moves on. If somebody wants to discuss trombones, shoot me an e-mail. Chris -- Chris Waage Associate Webmaster, The Online Trombone Journal www. trombone.org Bass Trombonist, Western Missouri British Brass Band www.wmbbb.org Bass Trombonist, Northland Cathedral Orchestra ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 10:56:22 EST From: JFBermann@AOL.COM Subject: Getzen Bass? On E-Bay Good Morning, A friend of mine has listed what Getzen has told him was a bass trombone on E-Bay. After looking at it, I'm not convinced. The number is 3706724065. I'd appreciate it if anyone has some more definite ideas, they forward them on to Rich. e-mail ChWakefiel @aol.com Thanks, Jim Bermann ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 07:58:39 -0800 From: jimandcat@JUNO.COM Subject: Re: re-subscribing >and if we could just get to the point >where people could subscribe to the list, >there would be more people to participate. >People like Paul Hill, >Dean McCarty etc etc etc >are all trying to get >back on and can't. >There are also people who are >subscribed who can't >post for some reason. That's the real point. To get sidetracked onto paranoid discussions (and pro and con defensiveness) of whether entities or individuals are trying to control your thoughts or speech through e mail postings doesn't address the original question or problem. I think the real reason the list has lost some of its "juice", is that internet connections are now taken more for granted than a few years ago, they have lost their creative novelty and those of us who are extremely busy do not make the time to read, digest and communicate anymore. Whether on a web based BB or e mail lists like this. When was the last time Mr. Greenhoe or Mr. Reichenbach posted here? Probably not because they don't want to, but simply because they got busy doing other things and no longer make the time. I rarely post anywhere anymore, and skim postings here and elsewhere. But I do occassionally find very interesting communications here and excellent discussions of all kinds on the other forums I peruse. And in all places I visit, I value the knowledge of all different aspects of trombone life people share, ask about, and answer. Jim Prindle ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 10:20:07 -0600 From: Eric & Candice Swanson Subject: Re: Getzen Bass? On E-Bay JFBermann@AOL.COM wrote: >Good Morning, >A friend of mine has listed what Getzen has told him was a bass >trombone on E-Bay. After looking at it, I'm not convinced. The >number is 3706724065. I'd appreciate it if anyone has some more >definite ideas... > Jim, I have a definite idea that this is a tenor with F attachment, and not a very big one at that. Eric ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 09:36:41 -0700 From: David Oliver Subject: Re: Getzen Bass? On E-Bay Yeah, I agree with Eric. Even the older bass trombones from the 60's had bells of at least 9 inches. The older Conn's were 9.5". This horn's bell is 8.75". A measurement of the bore would be definitive. David Oliver Broomfield, CO USA (Heck, my King 5B large bore tenor has a 9" bell!) Eric & Candice Swanson wrote: > > JFBermann@AOL.COM wrote: > > >Good Morning, > >A friend of mine has listed what Getzen has told him was a bass > >trombone on E-Bay. After looking at it, I'm not convinced. The > >number is 3706724065. I'd appreciate it if anyone has some more > >definite ideas... > > > > Jim, > > I have a definite idea that this is a tenor with F attachment, and not a > very big one at that. > > Eric ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 08:48:17 -0800 From: Todd Jonz Subject: Re: re-subscribing Craig writes: > Different fora attract different clientele and > different agendas....this list provides a > distinctly different environment, one that I > don't see matched by any of the web-based chat > groups. I agree. I've become essentially a lurker on this list, having moved my interactive participation to places like OTJ and The Open Horn because I find them move conducive to interactive discussion. Still, I read the digest every day and learn things that I haven't found on the other forums. Just today, for example, I bookmarked the Cook Library's online facility, a very cool resource indeed -- thanks, Jeff. In the interest of keeping this list eneergized I hope that someone who has a relationship with Mr. Nicklas will contact him in hopes of resolving the current administrative problems. I've told numerous friends about this list, and in the last month or so two of them have asked me what's up when they were unable to subscribe. -- Todd Jonz tjonz42@yahoo.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 12:12:59 -0500 From: Roger Carmichael Subject: Slide Brace for sale I have a unique item for sale on ebay. It is an extra brace which attaches to the lower hand slide tube and 1st cross brace. See the link listed below. If there are questions, send me an email. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16216&item=3707072746 Roger Carmichael ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 13:21:29 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee Subject: Re: Getzen Bass? On E-Bay I don't see how bore measurement would be definitive. This horn comes from an era where the bass trombones had a bore of 547 or smaller. It isn't a "bass" by today's standards, but I don't see any reason to doubt that it was marketed as a "bass" in its day. At 11:36 AM 2/28/2004, David Oliver wrote: >Yeah, I agree with Eric. Even the older bass trombones from the 60's had >bells of at least 9 inches. The older Conn's were 9.5". This horn's bell >is 8.75". >A measurement of the bore would be definitive. > >David Oliver >Broomfield, CO USA > >(Heck, my King 5B large bore tenor has a 9" bell!) > > >Eric & Candice Swanson wrote: > > > > JFBermann@AOL.COM wrote: > > > > >Good Morning, > > >A friend of mine has listed what Getzen has told him was a bass > > >trombone on E-Bay. After looking at it, I'm not convinced. The > > >number is 3706724065. I'd appreciate it if anyone has some more > > >definite ideas... > > > > > > > Jim, > > > > I have a definite idea that this is a tenor with F attachment, and > not a > > very big one at that. > > > > Eric ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 11:47:03 -0800 From: John Reifel Subject: Reka Super Slide O.k., since nobody would touch my question and for those who may be interested: Reka Super Slide seems to work fine unrefrigerated and does indeed last much longer than S-O-M (Original Formula). ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 15:06:46 -0600 From: "Richard Z. Johnson" Subject: Re: Business Cards Perhaps, a person would know better than to put such a card in their pocket. I've utilized these cards in the past and received numerous comments and business (legal) as a result of them, -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Daniel Pliskin Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 11:58 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Business Cards >A nice touch on business cards is to go to a place like Office Depot and >buy the magnets that fit on the back of business cards. It will allow >someone to put your card on a fridge or metal filing cabinets. Yea, it will also allow them to put the card in their wallets, erasing all of their credit cards. But hey... no problem. 8?) DanP _________________________________________________________________ Store more e-mails with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage - 4 plans to choose from! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 14:22:25 -0700 From: David Oliver Subject: Re: re-subscribing (value/future of list) I'd like to jump in at this point. I've been on the trombone list now for a bit over 7 years. I got on some months before I started playing the trombone again after a lapse of 17 years. Prior to the list monitor days, we were more "self policing". I remember coming to the defense of Wayne Dyess years ago after a "dressing down" from a new subscriber who didn't have a feel for the list or the various members yet. Wayne was just being Wayne and goofing around. I still view the t-list as being more civil than many other lists, even with the recent "DJ leaving" stuff. I've met both Same Burtis and Chris Waage at various times in the past, and I'd loan either of them my most prized horn without any worries. I remember getting a little upset at Sam a long time ago after taking the time to post some notes from the Lindberg masterclass in Boulder (I realized he wasn't slamming me per se, but more the "buzzing" comments by Christian). I saw Sam every day at the Nashville ITF a few years ago and enjoyed chatting with him about trombone related things. Chris has spent a *ton* of time helping the trombone list. I for one am grateful for the work he did over many years in processing subscriptions and going toe to toe with the troll. I was somewhat involved with that, as a few of us got good at sniffing out those e-mails. I think many would be amazed at the amount of "man-hours" he's spent keeping the list going - especially in the older days. Like others, I also feel that the "novelty" of e-mail has worn off with all the spammers and the passage of time. It was all new in the late 90's. I normally send 30 to 50 e-mails at work each day now, and when that occurs I'm not likely to do much e-mailing to anyone after that! We all only have so much time in each day. The t-list still appears to have around 595 subscribers, which is about the number it always seems to have had. I don't see a mass exodus, but I do hope that those who want to subscribe (or re-subscribe) can. Hopefully Eric N. can get it all sorted out. Yes, we don't have Doug Yeo on the list anymore, but many are still around after many years. They are like old friends to me (Sam, Chris, Wayne, Eric Swanson, and many others). I almost automatically save posts from certain list members. I try to make my posts informative when I can so that there is some value to them. I still see a value to the trombone list and have no plans on leaving any time soon. I also try to not get too worked up re: the list. Things like our health, family, and careers (i.e. paying the mortgage) are much more important in the big scheme of things, right? The list has help me with so many things: mutes, the *need* for lessons at any level, the right horn for the right situation, intonation, musicality, tuners, metronomes, slide-o-mix(!! - couldn't resist) etc. I'm an amateur player, but wouldn't be the "serious" amateur I am without the t-list and what it has given me. David Oliver Broomfield, Colorado USA President (and trombone), Denver Concert Band www.denverconcertband.org Bass Trombone, Swing Inc. Robert Holland wrote: > > Sabutin wrote: > > > Ask the owners to loosen up the list a little. Maybe over a > > period of time more people would start posting and reading again. > > (Provided of course that they can successfully subscribe.) > > > > Freedom is messy. > > > > Trolls and sages come in the same package. > > I totally agree with the second two statements. However, the loosening up > would need to be other listers easily bent out of shape by firebrands or > trolls, not so much a controlling agency. The list lives or dies by > voluntary association, not by centralized control. If people like what they > get from it, they'll participate. If not, they look elsewhere. I would be > interested to know the numbers of subscribers over a period of months or > years to know it there really has been an exodus. > > > Concentrate more of your energy on the various website based > > forums. The OTJ exists on one level, some others (including mine) > > exist on other levels. Go where you are most comfortable and chalk > > this list up to "progress". > > Also quite reasonable, and probably more true to human nature. It takes > energy to contribute thoughtful and worthwhile posts. Some are prepared to > do that work while others simply want to read. A website forum may serve the > second sort better than 40+ posts in one's Inbox. > > On the subject of list behavior, I'm certainly a minor contributor at this > point, but I haven't been above fighting and arguing to make a point when I > feel like it. Yet I do it rather dispassionately, whether that's readily > apparent or not. I'm not quite the firebrand some wish to be. Reckless, > callous statements can be really good jumping off points once they're honed > and shaped. But the initial intensity may be more than some folks want to > witness. > > Just my thoughts. > > Robert Holland > Briar Music Press > briar@chicagonet.net > http://www.EnsPub.com/bmp.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 13:37:02 -0800 From: Galen McQuarrie Subject: Re: Reka Super Slide I just bought and tried a bottle of Reka Super Slide. It worked very well on my Bach 42 slide. As well as S-O-M or Rapid Comfort. It does seem to last a little longer. However, the stuff didn't work worth a damn on my Shires slide. It gummed it up something terrible. SOM works the best on that. I would think that refrigeration would make the Reka stuff congeal. I don't think that temperature extremes improve slide lubs, and may even make them worse. Just some of my observations. Best Galen McQuarrie -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of John Reifel Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 11:47 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] Reka Super Slide O.k., since nobody would touch my question and for those who may be interested: Reka Super Slide seems to work fine unrefrigerated and does indeed last much longer than S-O-M (Original Formula). ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 16:40:25 EST From: "Thomas B. Cox" Subject: Re: re-subscribing (value/future of list) I have been a list member for... well, only 5 years, but it seems like a long time to me. I was a junior in high school in Carrollton, GA when I joined the list, and now I'm a 4th year college student at the University of Alabama. I spent my first 5 years playing the trombone only knowing my Yamaha beginner model instrument and the Yamaha 12C mouthpiece that came with it, before someone finally suggested when I was in 10th grade to try a 6 1/2 AL. Now, my main horn is a Bach 42BO and I use a Greg Black Alessi model 3...and I have a few other horns that I like as well. I attribute a lot of my drastic improvement in playing and knowledge of the instrument that happened in the end of my junior year/all through my senior year in high school to what I learned on this list. A combination of this list, private lessons for a semester with Dr. Scott McBride, and joining a community band all aided this transformation. I spent some time where my list subscription was on "pause" beginning summer 2002 because I spent a month in England and then didn't resume my subscription until several months later. Since returning to the list, I still value the insights of many of its members and the opportunity it presents for me to keep myself on top of all of the trombone-related news that's going on, but I have definitely noticed the absence of many former listmembers who contributed greatly way back when....Ken Dowdy, Doug Yeo, Aaron Roth...etc etc etc.... I only hope that the likes of Tom, Adrian, Sam, Dan, and others continue to contribute and make it a worthwhile experience. I hope this list continues to be a valuable source of information for other students like myself and a valuable place of discussion for more advanced players. Trombotine rules...anyone care to disagree?? (jk) -Tommy Cox Thomas B. Cox University of Alabama Music Education/Trombone ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 16:45:49 EST From: Johannes Mader Subject: Re: Bass Trombone website If you don't mind, would you please send this note to Frank's email webmaster@bassposaunen.de > Johannes > > I'm just e-mailing to tell you about two minor bumps > in your site. None of the pictures work and a lot of > the language is still in German. > > James > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 16:30:47 -0600 From: Eric & Candice Swanson Subject: Re: re-subscribing (value/future of list) David Oliver wrote: >I'd like to jump in at this point. I've been on the trombone list now >for a bit over 7 years. .... >Prior to the list monitor days, we were more "self policing". ..... >I still view the t-list as being more civil than many other lists, even >with the recent "DJ leaving" stuff..... > >The t-list still appears to have around 595 subscribers, which is about >the number it always seems to have had. I don't see a mass exodus.... >many are still around after many years. They are like old friends to me (Sam, Chris, >Wayne, Eric Swanson, and many others)..... > > > > David, First, thanks for the compliment. Second, let me agree with you, I believe, in that I have been on this list for many years and still look forward to checking my email every day to see if anything interesting is being discussed. I don't believe that it has been noticed often enough the tremendous amount of work that Eric Nicklas has put into this list to maintain it and keep it going for all these years. He has never asked for anything in return, and rarely even makes his presence known on the list. I wouldn't even begin to guess the number of hours he has sacrificed so that all the rest of us have someplace to go to yak about horns, mouthpieces, etc. Plus, he undoubtedly incurs some expense as well (although I am ignorant about the costs of this kind of stuff). All he has ever gotten in return is grief, bitching, moaning, complaining, threats, and headaches from various members and ex-members over the years. I for one would like to personally thank him for keeping it going all this time, and hope that he will consider continuing in this thankless job for a while. Thank you Eric! Now, if everyone could just act like adults, say what you want to say, let everyone else say what they have to say, and don't attack each other. We should be able to get along and have decent discussions about anything without people getting their feelings hurt and running off never to return. Use the delete button and move on. Life's too short. Please don't respond to this message, there is no need. Sincerely, your friend, Eric Swanson Bass trombone, Dallas Opera Orchestra Freelance low brass, Dallas/Fort Worth area ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 23:32:40 -0000 From: Keith Marr Subject: Re: re-subscribing (value/future of list) The phrase "storm in a teacup" springs to mind. I guess there's been some problem with resubscribing, either technical or to do with the amount of time available to the acting LM. Paranoia sets in and folk assume it's personal. Hey, let's just be grown up about this! Are we sure it's not because the correct message wasn't sent? (sub trombone-l sent to listserv@po.missouri.edu) It wouldn't be the first time someone tried to subscribe by sending a message to the list. Can't say I 've noticed a deterioration in the list recently having been on it for the past three years. Is the phrase Good Old Days going to make an entrance soon? Calm down guys, back to business! Keith in Bb/F/D Got no argument against Trombotine by the way Thomas. Nectar of the gods! --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.588 / Virus Database: 372 - Release Date: 13/02/2004 ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 27 Feb 2004 to 28 Feb 2004 (#2004-60) ****************************************************************