Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 26 Feb 2004 to 27 Feb 2004 (#2004-59) Date: Saturday, February 28, 2004 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 15 messages totalling 799 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "They Say" lead sheet 2. Online Musical Scores (4) 3. Reading and Writing 4. re-subscribing (5) 5. Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] re-subscribing (4) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 12:42:38 +0100 From: Dick Sleeman Subject: Re: "They Say" lead sheet Hi Craig, I did some "Google"-ing and came up with a few URL's that might bring you the information you're looking for. See for yourself: http://www.libraries.psu.edu/waring/music%20library/Songst.html http://www.gilbertandsullivanonline.com/cbclassicalmusic/sheet-music/popular30s.html http://www.ewanted.com/si/Say http://www.iofferstores.com/c/Sheet-Music-88020 I found the song was published in 1938 by M.Witmark & Sons. Maybe you'll find a lead sheet there. If not so, I suggest you to listen to the rendition of Billy Holiday on the CD "THE QUINTESSENTIAL B.H. VOLUME 6 (1938)". Good luck, Dick Sleeman, Lelystad, Holland. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:13:25 -0600 From: Jeff Oien Subject: Online Musical Scores Does anybody know of more sites like this that display scores online? http://www.dlib.indiana.edu/variations/scores/ I know there are some sites like: http://www.freesheetmusic.net/ But I'm looking mainly for orchestral and opera. Seems like there may be some obscure library sites that I haven't been able to find yet. I looked at Library of Congress as suggested by Carole Nowicke but couldn't find any online scores. I may not have been looking correctly though. Thanks. Jeff Oien ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 11:19:35 -0600 From: Chris Waage Subject: Re: Reading and Writing Spell Checker I have a spelling chequer It came with my pea sea It plainly marques four my revue Miss steaks eye cannot sea. When eye strike a quay, right a word I weight four it two say Weather eye am wrong oar wright It shows me strait aweigh. As soon as a mist ache is maid It nose bee fore two late And eye can put the error rite Its rarely, rarely grate. I've run this poem threw it I'm shore your pleased two no Its letter perfect in it's weigh My chequer tolled me sew. -- author unknown -- -- Chris Waage Associate Webmaster, The Online Trombone Journal www. trombone.org Bass Trombonist, Western Missouri British Brass Band Bass Trombonist, Northland Cathedral Orchestra ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 11:07:48 -0800 From: alex iles Subject: re-subscribing Hi everyone, I apologize for wasting list space with this, but I have received several private complaints from long-standing listmembers. Apparently, there is a problem with re-subscribing. All our collective attempts to contact list administrators directly have been unanswered. The list has a serious problem if it cannot let existing list members maintain their subscriptions. Any ideas or explanations for this? Thanks, Alex Iles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 12:08:25 -0600 From: Jeff Oien Subject: Re: re-subscribing I've posted on this two times now with no response. How about migrating to another list provider? Jeff Oien alex iles wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I apologize for wasting list space with this, but I have received > several private complaints from long-standing listmembers. Apparently, > there is a problem with re-subscribing. All our collective attempts to > contact list administrators directly have been unanswered. The list has > a serious problem if it cannot let existing list members maintain their > subscriptions. Any ideas or explanations for this? > > Thanks, > > Alex Iles > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 11:40:55 -0800 From: John Reifel Subject: Re: Online Musical Scores That is really cool. I knew the Cook Library was good, but didn't know about these online resources. And, no, I don't know of any additional sites. Jeff Oien wrote: Does anybody know of more sites like this that display scores online? http://www.dlib.indiana.edu/variations/scores/ I know there are some sites like: http://www.freesheetmusic.net/ But I'm looking mainly for orchestral and opera. Seems like there may be some obscure library sites that I haven't been able to find yet. I looked at Library of Congress as suggested by Carole Nowicke but couldn't find any online scores. I may not have been looking correctly though. Thanks. Jeff Oien ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 15:44:12 EST From: Johannes Mader Subject: Re: Online Musical Scores http://ibiblio.org/pub/multimedia/music-scores/freemusic/ > Jeff Oien wrote: Does anybody know of more sites > like this that display > scores online? > http://www.dlib.indiana.edu/variations/scores/ > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 14:36:48 -0700 From: Frank Darmiento Subject: Re: Online Musical Scores ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Johannes Mader Reply-To: Johannesmader9@AOL.COM Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 15:44:12 EST >http://ibiblio.org/pub/multimedia/music-scores/freemusic/ Johannes - Thanks so much for this link. While it's limited to only a few major composers, it does contain quite a few scores I don't have and the quality appears to be excellent. -- Frank T. Darmiento Scottsdale, Arizona frank@darmiento.com www.SackbutMusic.com --------------------------- Frank Darmiento's new jazz CD "Sudden Impact" is now available from Summit Records at: http://www.summitrecords.com/product.tmpl?SKU=339 -- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 17:42:44 -0500 From: sabutin Subject: Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] re-subscribing >Hi everyone, > >I apologize for wasting list space with this, but I have received >several private complaints from long-standing listmembers. Apparently, >there is a problem with re-subscribing. All our collective attempts to >contact list administrators directly have been unanswered. The list has >a serious problem if it cannot let existing list members maintain their >subscriptions. Any ideas or explanations for this? > >Thanks, > >Alex Iles I am sorry to say that it appears to me that the list has lost a lot of its juice over the past few years. This is largely a technological problem coupled with a certain shortsightedness on the part of the list management as well,in my opinion. The technological problem is this: There are simply better ways to do this sort of thing now than there were when the list was founded. , I personally DREAD going into my email these days because of the amount of spam I receive on a daily basis. I went to bed at about 5 AM last night after checking my mail. When I awoke 5 hours later, I had 80+ messages. Well over 1/2 were spam. I have a spam catcher but still...it's not perfect and I have to review the captured spam for legit email. When I do so, I feel as if I have been forced to go elbow deep into the slimiest of societal garbage pails. After being on the road or in some other way email deprived for a few days, it is all I can do to force myself to open my email program Website based forums bypass much of this problem, plus you can log in and out at will and easily choose topics in which you are interested. The shortsightedness has to do with this list's alliance with the OTJ and its at least partial acceptance of some of the subjective strictures extant on that site. When this site first started, I never used to feel as if I had to censor myself very much. I could let my thoughts flow relatively freely and express those thoughts fairly forcefully without fear of reprimand, and I did so. It was a much more vibrant list during that time, regardless of the various troll problems we had, and when the troll(s?) were kicked off the list, I voiced my disapproval of the idea even though I had been the lightning rod for a large percentage of those troll strikes. You ask if there are any "ideas or explanations"? Well there's my explanation. The list has lost juice and as a result business appears to not be being taken care of,on the same level as it was in its glory days. Ideas? 1-Ask the owners to loosen up the list a little. Maybe over a period of time more people would start posting and reading again. (Provided of course that they can successfully subscribe.) Freedom is messy. Trolls and sages come in the same package. Can't have one w/out the other,sometimes. Or: 2-Concentrate more of your energy on the various website based forums. The OTJ exists on one level, some others (including mine) exist on other levels. Go where you are most comfortable and chalk this list up to "progress". I valued this list immensely when it first appeared. It literally changed the direction of my life to some degree. I now rarely post to it and skip about 90% of the posts that I find on it. This is not because I have my own forum..I am ever the optimist, I guess, and I like a number of the people who have stayed active here.., but simply because much of the content is not interesting to me, and also I find myself unnecessarily (in my opinion, of course) constrained by the rather amorphous set of rules that appears to govern this list when I want to comment upon that which DOES interest me. Take my position and multiply it by about 85...which is a rough estimate of the percentage of juice and energy that has disappeared from here since it was really cooking several years ago...and there's what has happened. Too bad...but so it goes... I objected to the anti-troll actions (Well...when I wasn't hopping mad I did,anyway...), and I pointed out the folly of becoming part of the OTJ WELL before I was escorted off those premises as well. Y'get what you're paid for...or something like that... Business as usual. Later... S. Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC. Visit us on the web at and/or , email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by appointment only. PLEASE VISIT THE OPEN HORN,A WEB FORUM Lots of interesting discussions going on every day. An introduction to the site is available at -- Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC. Visit us on the web at and/or , email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by appointment only. PLEASE VISIT THE OPEN HORN,A WEB FORUM Lots of interesting discussions going on every day. An introduction to the site is available at ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 18:32:55 -0600 From: Chris Waage Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] re-subscribing The trombone-l is and has always been autonomous of the Online Trombone Journal. Eric Nicklas is the list owner, and all policy decisions for the list come from him. At one point the OTJ offered a free e-mail for the list monitor position, but when it became apparent that this was not necessary, that service was terminated by mutual decision. The list has lost much of its vitality and open nature, and much of this is thanks to individuals who chose to attack list members via anonymous e-mail addresses, either through the list or off list. It has also lost some of its glory because some individuals tend to overstate their opinions, dismissing the possibility that there might be multiple right answers. To the best of my knowledge, the list has always been (with a few exceptions due to computer virus problems) an unmoderated, open forum. How does one "loosen up" such a forum? It could simply be that the technology has passed the trombone-l by. While I haven't been on the tuba-euph list in a while, I know that several other once-thriving lists have fallen into disuse. It could also be that, times being what they are, many people just do not have the time to devote to such endeavors at this point. There's no easy answer on this - I would say that the only real answers would come from Eric Nicklas. Chris On 2/27/04 4:42 PM, "sabutin" smote the keyboard with: >> Hi everyone, >> >> I apologize for wasting list space with this, but I have received >> several private complaints from long-standing listmembers. Apparently, >> there is a problem with re-subscribing. All our collective attempts to >> contact list administrators directly have been unanswered. The list has >> a serious problem if it cannot let existing list members maintain their >> subscriptions. Any ideas or explanations for this? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Alex Iles > > > I am sorry to say that it appears to me that the list has lost a lot > of its juice over the past few years. > > This is largely a technological problem coupled with a certain > shortsightedness on the part of the list management as well,in my > opinion. > > The technological problem is this: > > There are simply better ways to do this sort of thing now than > there were when the list was founded. > > , I personally DREAD going into my email these days because of the > amount of spam I receive on a daily basis. I went to bed at about 5 > AM last night after checking my mail. When I awoke 5 hours later, I > had 80+ messages. Well over 1/2 were spam. I have a spam catcher but > still...it's not perfect and I have to review the captured spam for > legit email. When I do so, I feel as if I have been forced to go > elbow deep into the slimiest of societal garbage pails. After being > on the road or in some other way email deprived for a few days, it is > all I can do to force myself to open my email program > > Website based forums bypass much of this problem, plus you can log > in and out at will and easily choose topics in which you are > interested. > > The shortsightedness has to do with this list's alliance with the > OTJ and its at least partial acceptance of some of the subjective > strictures extant on that site. > -- Chris Waage Associate Webmaster, The Online Trombone Journal www. trombone.org Bass Trombonist, Western Missouri British Brass Band www.wmbbb.org Bass Trombonist, Northland Cathedral Orchestra ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 20:36:15 -0600 From: Richard Human Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] re-subscribing Trombone-L, For clarification sake, The OTJ only provides storage for past list archives. The OTJ, not its staff, has any such "control" over the list. I suggest that Mr. Burtis, or other members of the list concerned with procedure, contact the list owner: Eric Nicklas eric@more.net RH On Feb 27, 2004, at 4:42 PM, sabutin wrote: > > The shortsightedness has to do with this list's alliance with the > OTJ and its at least partial acceptance of some of the subjective > strictures extant on that site. ----- --- ----- --- ----- --- ----- --- ----- --- ----- --- ----- --- ----- --- ----- --- Dr. Richard Human, Jr, Assistant Professor of Music Mississippi State University http://www.msstate.edu/dept/musiced/ Email: richard@trombone.org Office Phone: (662) 325-8021 Founder and Webmaster Online Trombone Journal "A web site for Trombonists" http://www.trombone.org/ "The more you know, the less you understand." --Tao Te Ching ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 18:31:45 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee Subject: re-subscribing Personally, I wouldn't be too quick to write off this forum. Different fora attract different clientele and different agendas. The OTJ, for example has come to be dominated by beginning students and people who are most interested in hardware. It is good that there is a forum that meets those needs, but this list provides a distinctly different environment, one that I don't see matched by any of the web-based chat groups. Perhaps THAT is the difference. The web chat rooms are all about ease of use. They are conceived with chat in mind. Chat is fine, but the discussions here are generally more purposeful. Perhaps it is the lack of the most modern fixtures that filters out people who are mainly interested in light chat.. My 2 cents. CP ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:24:58 -0500 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] re-subscribing >The trombone-l is and has always been autonomous of the Online Trombone >Journal. Eric Nicklas is the list owner, and all policy decisions for the >list come from him. At one point the OTJ offered a free e-mail for the list >monitor position, but when it became apparent that this was not necessary, >that service was terminated by mutual decision. > >The list has lost much of its vitality and open nature, and much of this is >thanks to individuals who chose to attack list members via anonymous e-mail >addresses, either through the list or off list. It has also lost some of >its glory because some individuals tend to overstate their opinions, >dismissing the possibility that there might be multiple right answers. > >To the best of my knowledge, the list has always been (with a few exceptions >due to computer virus problems) an unmoderated, open forum. How does one >"loosen up" such a forum? > >It could simply be that the technology has passed the trombone-l by. While >I haven't been on the tuba-euph list in a while, I know that several other >once-thriving lists have fallen into disuse. > >It could also be that, times being what they are, many people just do not >have the time to devote to such endeavors at this point. > >There's no easy answer on this - I would say that the only real answers >would come from Eric Nicklas. =========== " How does one 'loosen up' such a forum?" I have received official rebukes for the most innocuous political comments made on this list...jokes, really. Y'might consider loosening it up that way, for starters. Music does not exist in a socialvacuum. I suppose that "some individuals tend to overstate their opinions, dismissing the possibility that there might be multiple right answers" might be aimed at least partially at me. I am passionate about my beliefs, but I NEVER ignore the possibility that someone else might know something of value. (Witness the long dialogues in which I engaged with several Reinhardt aficionados both on the OTJ and my own site and with an ex-Green Beret [I think...some sort of Special Services fighter for the US] on my site.) I would respectfully submit that the very closed mindedness that produced the above comment in the first place from Mr. Waage is an EXACT example of what has harmed the content of this list. (Note well his sig. "Chris Waage Associate Webmaster,The Online Trombone Journal www. trombone.org".) In another response on this thread Dr. Human of the OTJ says "For clarification sake, The OTJ only provides storage for past list archives. The OTJ, not its staff, has any such "control" over the list. I suggest that Mr. Burtis, or other members of the list concerned with procedure, contact the list owner:" My point is more subtle. In my experience,like goes to like. It would never even DAWN on me to use the services of the OTJ for any reason whatsoever because I have become so convinced of our essential philosophical differences. We are too unlike. The original question from Alex Iles was "The list has a serious problem if it cannot let existing list members maintain their subscriptions. Any ideas or explanations for this?" I proffered my own ideas and explanations regarding this matter in good faith. Progressive loss of juice, of energy, plus possible reasons and fixes. The results of my own efforts in following thsee kinds of ideas on my website over the past year or so have been quite gratifying. No trolls, no trouble...just discussion and the free flow of information. Take the ideas or or leave 'em. As I said, I feel I owe the trombone-l a debt. I wrote "I valued this list immensely when it first appeared. It literally changed the direction of my life to some degree." Suggestions offered...I can't do much more. Later... Sam > >Chris > > >On 2/27/04 4:42 PM, "sabutin" smote the keyboard >with: > >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> I apologize for wasting list space with this, but I have received > >> several private complaints from long-standing listmembers. Apparently, >>> there is a problem with re-subscribing. All our collective attempts to >>> contact list administrators directly have been unanswered. The list has >>> a serious problem if it cannot let existing list members maintain their >>> subscriptions. Any ideas or explanations for this? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Alex Iles >> >> >> I am sorry to say that it appears to me that the list has lost a lot >> of its juice over the past few years. >> >> This is largely a technological problem coupled with a certain >> shortsightedness on the part of the list management as well,in my >> opinion. >> >> The technological problem is this: >> >> There are simply better ways to do this sort of thing now than >> there were when the list was founded. >> >> , I personally DREAD going into my email these days because of the >> amount of spam I receive on a daily basis. I went to bed at about 5 >> AM last night after checking my mail. When I awoke 5 hours later, I >> had 80+ messages. Well over 1/2 were spam. I have a spam catcher but >> still...it's not perfect and I have to review the captured spam for >> legit email. When I do so, I feel as if I have been forced to go >> elbow deep into the slimiest of societal garbage pails. After being >> on the road or in some other way email deprived for a few days, it is >> all I can do to force myself to open my email program >> >> Website based forums bypass much of this problem, plus you can log >> in and out at will and easily choose topics in which you are >> interested. >> >> The shortsightedness has to do with this list's alliance with the >> OTJ and its at least partial acceptance of some of the subjective >> strictures extant on that site. >> >-- >Chris Waage >Associate Webmaster, > The Online Trombone Journal > www. trombone.org >Bass Trombonist, > Western Missouri British Brass Band > www.wmbbb.org >Bass Trombonist, > Northland Cathedral Orchestra -- Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC. Visit us on the web at and/or , email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by appointment only. PLEASE VISIT THE OPEN HORN,A WEB FORUM Lots of interesting discussions going on every day. An introduction to the site is available at ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:26:23 -0600 From: Robert Holland Subject: re-subscribing Sabutin wrote: > Ask the owners to loosen up the list a little. Maybe over a > period of time more people would start posting and reading again. > (Provided of course that they can successfully subscribe.) > > Freedom is messy. > > Trolls and sages come in the same package. I totally agree with the second two statements. However, the loosening up would need to be other listers easily bent out of shape by firebrands or trolls, not so much a controlling agency. The list lives or dies by voluntary association, not by centralized control. If people like what they get from it, they'll participate. If not, they look elsewhere. I would be interested to know the numbers of subscribers over a period of months or years to know it there really has been an exodus. > Concentrate more of your energy on the various website based > forums. The OTJ exists on one level, some others (including mine) > exist on other levels. Go where you are most comfortable and chalk > this list up to "progress". Also quite reasonable, and probably more true to human nature. It takes energy to contribute thoughtful and worthwhile posts. Some are prepared to do that work while others simply want to read. A website forum may serve the second sort better than 40+ posts in one's Inbox. On the subject of list behavior, I'm certainly a minor contributor at this point, but I haven't been above fighting and arguing to make a point when I feel like it. Yet I do it rather dispassionately, whether that's readily apparent or not. I'm not quite the firebrand some wish to be. Reckless, callous statements can be really good jumping off points once they're honed and shaped. But the initial intensity may be more than some folks want to witness. Just my thoughts. Robert Holland Briar Music Press briar@chicagonet.net http://www.EnsPub.com/bmp.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:46:10 -0600 From: Jeff Oien Subject: Re: re-subscribing Craig Parmerlee wrote: > Personally, I wouldn't be too quick to write off this forum. Different > fora attract different clientele and different agendas. The OTJ, for > example has come to be dominated by beginning students and people who > are most interested in hardware. It is good that there is a forum that > meets those needs, but this list provides a distinctly different > environment, one that I don't see matched by any of the web-based chat > groups. > > Perhaps THAT is the difference. The web chat rooms are all about ease > of use. They are conceived with chat in mind. Chat is fine, but the > discussions here are generally more purposeful. Perhaps it is the lack > of the most modern fixtures that filters out people who are mainly > interested in light chat.. > > My 2 cents. > CP I agree with this and if we could just get to the point where people could subscribe to the list, there would be more people to participate. People like Paul Hill, Dean McCarty etc etc etc are all trying to get back on and can't. There are also people who are subscribed who can't post for some reason. Jeff Oien ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 26 Feb 2004 to 27 Feb 2004 (#2004-59) ****************************************************************