Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 19 Feb 2004 to 20 Feb 2004 (#2004-52) Date: Saturday, February 21, 2004 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 9 messages totalling 470 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Fwd: BITE! Annual concert. February 22, 8pm 2. Early Bach 42B's? (4) 3. Jiggs Whigham Concert & Masterclass 4. Early Bach 42B's? (Sam) (3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 06:46:16 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Fwd: BITE! Annual concert. February 22, 8pm --- Lawrence Isaacson wrote: > Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:05:35 -0500 > Subject: BITE! Annual concert. February 22, 8pm > From: Lawrence Isaacson > To: Lawrence Isaacson > > Tell your friends, tell your students... > > The Boston Conservatory > Presents > > BITE! > Bostonās Invitational Trombone Ensemble > > Co-founders: > Artistic Director, Lawrence Isaacson > Ensemble Manager, Wes Hopper > > Sunday, February 22, 2004 > 8:00PM > > Seully Hall > The Boston Conservatory > 8 the Fenway > Boston, Massachusetts 02215 > > Free Admission > > > BITE! is an innovative ensemble, consisting of 16 > professional and > student trombonists from the Boston Musical Community. > This yearās > performance will include works by Ewazen, Blake, Barber > and Bach. Also > appearing with BITE! are soloists John Faieta and Angel > Subero. You > have never heard anything like this! Donāt miss the 4th > annual concert! > > For directions to The Boston Conservatory, please see: > www.bostonconservatory.edu. Click on the campus link. > > ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:46:45 EST From: "Thomas B. Cox" Subject: Early Bach 42B's? Y'all, I have been wondering lately and do not know where on the web to find this info. Does anyone know when Bach first made the 42 and 42B models? I have a friend who has a very early Elkhart 42B that has a strange looking linkage that is apparently original, but his is the only horn I have ever seen with that linkage. I guess I'm just on an "old horn" kick at the moment. I play a 42B that's 4 years old now and I have been thinking about what the real differences might be between standard models like the 42B now vs. when they were first made: i.e. would the old ones still sound good with today's larger mouthpieces? (Alessi models etc...mine sounds great with an Alessi 3). I love my 1955 Conn 4H (I play 2nd in the university jazz ensemble) and would never trade it for a newer horn. My friend's 1970-ish 3B (who plays 1st in the jazz ensemble), although it is really ugly (rescued from a warehouse, had many dents removed etc) sounds great also; plays much better (to me) than a new 3B. I was just thinking, I've never played an older large bore horn; maybe I'd like them better than the new ones too. Who knows? -Tommy Thomas B. Cox University of Alabama Music Education/Trombone ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:49:16 -0500 From: Chuck De Paolo Subject: Jiggs Whigham Concert & Masterclass Hi Folks, For anyone in the Ithaca/Central New York State area, Jiggs Whigham is going to be giving a masterclass and recital at Ithaca College on Monday and Tuesday the 23rd and 24th. He will be playing on a new King "Jiggs Whigham" 2BLS (short throw model) that will be available for sale after the show. For more info, see the Ithaca College Press Release at: http://www.Ithaca.edu/news/article.php?id=1381 (please quote this message if you reply) In Music, ---Charles De Paolo General Manager & Webmaster Hickey's Music Center 104 Adams Street Ithaca, NY 14850 607.272.8262 (Phone) 607.272.2203 (Fax) chuck@hickeys.com (E-Mail) http://www.hickeys.com (Website) Never Forget: http://www.worldtradetribute.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 13:53:25 -0500 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Early Bach 42B's? >Y'all, > >I have been wondering lately and do not know where on the web to find this >info. Does anyone know when Bach first made the 42 and 42B models? I have a >friend who has a very early Elkhart 42B that has a strange looking >linkage that >is apparently original, but his is the only horn I have ever seen with that >linkage. > >I guess I'm just on an "old horn" kick at the moment. I play a 42B that's 4 >years old now and I have been thinking about what the real differences might >be between standard models like the 42B now vs. when they were first >made: i.e. >would the old ones still sound good with today's larger mouthpieces? (Alessi >models etc...mine sounds great with an Alessi 3). > >I love my 1955 Conn 4H (I play 2nd in the university jazz ensemble) and would >never trade it for a newer horn. My friend's 1970-ish 3B (who plays 1st in >the jazz ensemble), although it is really ugly (rescued from a warehouse, had >many dents removed etc) sounds great also; plays much better (to me) >than a new >3B. I was just thinking, I've never played an older large bore horn; maybe >I'd like them better than the new ones too. Who knows? > >-Tommy > >Thomas B. Cox >University of Alabama >Music Education/Trombone =========== Tommy... Well, I'm not sure when they started making 42Bs, but your evidence for the superiority of older horns, although accurate to some degree, is also incomplete. There was a period of time...roughly the late '70s through the mid to late '90s, where mass produced trombones (especially American brands) precipitously declined in quality and design. Particularly small bore horns. As far as Bach is concerned, the earlier Selmer horns (marked Elkhart) were better than the later ones, but almost none of them were as good as the Mt. Vernons and New Yorks that were produced while Vincent Bach was still involved in the company. Over the last 5 years or so, every new Bach I have tried (and I've tried at least 30) has had serious quality control issues and NONE of them have played very well at all. However...The challenges from Yamaha, Edwards, and now the really high end makers like Shires and Rath over the past decade or more has had a fine impact on a number of fronts. First Conn w/its new 88H series and new basses and now apparently King with its smaller bore horns...both have started to produce world class instruments. I imagine Bach will soon either be forced to compete as well instead of shucking and relying on its reputation (Established 50-75 years ago!!!) or it will become a supplier of high end student horns. In fact, maybe that's already happened.(Thar's gold in them thar hills...) So...if you can find an older 42B, be my guest. But try newer Shires, Rath and Edwards designs as well. High end Getzens too. (An Edwards in sheep's clothing.) If you like 42Bs, the 88H might not be your cup of tea,. nor the Yamaha .547s.either...but they are very good horns as well. Good luck... S. P.S. Newer silver bell Kings, silver plated Conn 100Hs, and small bore Shires, Rath and Edwards horns are pretty impressive, too. I played horns made between the mid-'30s and late'50s for 25 years simply because newer horns just were not happening. No more...I have played innumerable Shires, Rath, Edwards, Conn and Yamaha instruments that are just as good or better than the older instruments in every bore size,and for my money the sterling silver Kings are getting there too. (I don't like the contemporary King yellow brass bells...too light for my tastes.) -- Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC. Visit us on the web at and/or , email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by appointment only. PLEASE VISIT THE OPEN HORN,A WEB FORUM Lots of interesting discussions going on every day. An introduction to the site is available at ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 11:03:07 -0800 From: Tom Izzo Subject: Re: Early Bach 42B's? Hi Tom, --- "Thomas B. Cox" wrote: > Y'all, > > I have been wondering lately and do not know where > on the web to find this > info. Does anyone know when Bach first made the 42 > and 42B models? I have a > friend who has a very early Elkhart 42B that has a > strange looking linkage that > is apparently original, but his is the only horn I > have ever seen with that > linkage. Can you describe it? I have a 42B from the 50's (Mt Vernon?), and another from the 80's. Both very similar in everything but the leadpipes. (the modern one has the removeable variety. Bell sections are identical. & of course, all the "fixed" tuning slides are interchangeable with my 70's vintage 36B. > > I guess I'm just on an "old horn" kick at the > moment. I play a 42B that's 4 > years old now and I have been thinking about what > the real differences might > be between standard models like the 42B now vs. when > they were first made: i.e. > would the old ones still sound good with today's > larger mouthpieces? (Alessi > models etc...mine sounds great with an Alessi 3). > Tom ===== Tom Izzo Principal Trombonist, Bristol Renaissance Faire; Bass Trombonist, West Suburban Symphony Orchestra; Founding Director, The Naperville Area Trombone Ensemble; Alto/Tenor/Bass/Contrabass Trombones, Tubas, Euphonium, Bass Trumpet, Electric Bass, Timpani & Percussion. http://www.Geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/7875/ (630) 858-7832 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:26:11 -0700 From: Mark Bauer Subject: Re: Early Bach 42B's? (Sam) Bach no longer has to compete since it is now in the same company as Conn,King,Benge and others. > > > >> First Conn w/its new 88H series and new basses and now apparently > King with its smaller bore horns...both have started to produce world > class instruments. I imagine Bach will soon either be forced to > compete as well instead of shucking and relying on its reputation > (Established 50-75 years ago!!!) or it will become a supplier of high > end student horns. In fact, maybe that's already happened.(Thar's > gold in them thar hills...) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 14:42:31 -0800 From: Chris Tune Subject: Re: Early Bach 42B's? (Sam) That would only be true if it were impossible for a person, disgusted with Bach to go only to Benge, King and Conn. But, as we know, they could easily go to Shires, Lawler, Getzen, Edwards and numerous other lines that are not UMI products. This is economic fact. A monopoly only exists when the company has entire market control. That is not the case in the musical instrument business. There is still essentially pure competition right now amongst musical instrument manufacturers even though there has been substantial consolidation in the last couple of decades. The state of competition exists when there are more than just a small handful of manufacturers and where adequate information is available to consumers. Chris Tune ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Bauer" To: Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 2:26 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Early Bach 42B's? (Sam) > Bach no longer has to compete since it is now in the same company as > Conn,King,Benge and others. > > > > > > > > >> First Conn w/its new 88H series and new basses and now apparently > > King with its smaller bore horns...both have started to produce world > > class instruments. I imagine Bach will soon either be forced to > > compete as well instead of shucking and relying on its reputation > > (Established 50-75 years ago!!!) or it will become a supplier of high > > end student horns. In fact, maybe that's already happened.(Thar's > > gold in them thar hills...) > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 17:16:56 -0600 From: Eric & Candice Swanson Subject: Re: Early Bach 42B's? (Sam) Chris Tune wrote: >..... they could easily >go to Shires, Lawler, Getzen, Edwards and numerous other lines that are not >UMI products. > > Chris, The company is now known as Conn-Selmer. There is no UMI anymore. Eric > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:46:03 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Early Bach 42B's? --- "Thomas B. Cox" wrote: > I have a > friend who has a very early Elkhart 42B that has a > strange looking linkage that > is apparently original, but his is the only horn I have > ever seen with that > linkage. I've seen Bachs with valve linkages that look very much like the older Holton linkages. > > I guess I'm just on an "old horn" kick at the moment. I > play a 42B that's 4 > years old now and I have been thinking about what the > real differences might > be between standard models like the 42B now vs. when they > were first made: i.e. > would the old ones still sound good with today's larger > mouthpieces? (Alessi > models etc...mine sounds great with an Alessi 3). I don't know that you'd see much difference design-wise other than the obvious ones - different valve tubing wraps and removable leadpipes. The standard closed-wrap 42B with a fixed leadpipe is probably very similar to older ones. The straight 42 has probably changed more - I think they used to have a tapered gooseneck, and I don't know if that's still the case or not. I seem to remember that at some point they changed something about the tuning slide, making it a little wider overall, but I'm not sure of that either. > I was just thinking, I've never played an older > large bore horn; maybe > I'd like them better than the new ones too. Who knows? You might, but even the instruments from the best days of the Bach shop are not particularly consistent. I've recently had the opportunity to play two early Elkhart 50B2s, both essentially unmodified. One is really outstanding, with a beautifully rich, smooth sound and even response - and VERY open valves. The other has a nice basic sound, but it's just not as friendly, and the response isn't as consistently good around the instrument. Actually, as I finished the paragraph above, I checked a serial number site again...turns out the first one is probably from 1969, and the second one is a few years younger, from about 1977. So there you go. There's some interesting info here, although not the answer to your specific question: http://www.thebrassbow.com/Serial.html I seem to remember this topic popping up before, and Gary Greenhow weighing in with some interesting info... ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 19 Feb 2004 to 20 Feb 2004 (#2004-52) ****************************************************************