Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 10 Feb 2004 to 11 Feb 2004 (#2004-43) Date: Thursday, February 12, 2004 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 19 messages totalling 819 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Beliefs 2. idiocy 3. Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] idiocy (4) 4. Prototype Willson Bass with Thayer Valves 5. more on Accord cases (3) 6. idiocy/Cogito Ergo Sum 7. List Troubles 8. Greenhoe News 9. List Troubles and Ancillary Internet Issues 10. Nice Shires .525 For Sale 11. Jazz Styles & Analysis (2) 12. Tuning of a trill valve (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 06:00:51 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Beliefs > >OK Š I have some strong beliefs. > I believe that it doesnāt matter if you practice scales and exercises, in order to be able to play better or if you practice playing, in order to improve your ability to play scales and exercises. Both the playing and the scales and exercises are just ways to measure your progress. I believe that equipment can either help your efforts or fight you all the way. But I also believe that oneās ideals change constantly and that one canāt possibly keep changing equipment, in order to keep up with those ever changing ideals. I believe that thereās some physiological reason why Iām so addicted to playing trombone. After all, I donāt play it nearly as well as I play either guitar or English horn and I like the sound of all three instruments. But by far, I put most of my practice time into trombone. And I believe that my last email, about Sam, should probably have been censored, but Iām glad it got through. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Get reliable dial-up Internet access now with our limited-time introductory offer. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:30:29 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: idiocy From: "Tom Izzo" > --- MikeSuter@AOL.COM wrote: > > This morning I responded to four replies to my > > 'revenge' post. But the > > (apparently) automated list 'robocop' couldn't > > figure out that they were different > > I received all 4 of them Mike. One in Bb, one in Eb, one large bore tenor and a contrabass. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:28:13 -0000 From: David Musgrove Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] idiocy This is a trombone forum; discussion about trombones and surely therefore about different types of trombone forum are valid here. Sam has posted saying that in his opinion a human-moderated forum is preferable to a computer-moderated forum - and that despite his experiences with OTJ! If you disagree with his little political quip at the end, then reply to him off list. He did not turn the issue into a political statement, he made a simple aside at the end of a post - many of us know something of Sam's views on this matter, and the strength of his feelings, but nonetheless this particular comment was nothing more than that. The bulk of his post was expressing opinions which I believe were entirely valid to be posted to this list. Hey, he even as an aside commented on his dislike of digital recording equipment - that's got to be playing related, right? If you disagree with the content of his post, then why didn't you pick Mike up on his earlier posts? They were totally computer/forum related and devoid of trombone content. (Mike - I don't think he should have done, by the way, don't read this the wrong way.) Chris, you obviously dislike Sam (if you don't you're going a funny way about demonstrating anything to the contrary), and something tells me you probably disagree with his political views (though that's not really the point here), but I think that posts such as your last one are far less appropriate to the list than Sam's. So is this one of mine by the way, for which I apologise, but this is something I felt strongly that I should say "in front of" the list and not just to you in private. I stopped participating in OTJ because of the rabid anti-Sam feeling there (and I'm not necessarily a particular fan of Sam, I would have done the same had anyone there been treated the same) - please don't tell me I'll have to unsubscribe from this list for the same reasons. We've already lost DJ - can we just try to get along, give each other the benefit of the doubt, and rather than escalate anything we see as non-trombone related just post something that is? If you know you don't like someone and what they say, don't read their posts. If someone expresses an opinion that you disagree with, put forward your own opinion; start a discussion. If you think a particular thread is not appropriate for the list, ignore it and let it die - short of the human moderated forum that Sam has (quite properly, whether you agree with the opinion or not) advocated, that's all any of us can do. Having got that off my chest, that's exactly what I'm going to do with this one. If you want to flame me, I'd personally rather you do it off list and just let this thread die - unless, of course, anyone wants to pick up on any of the trombone-related content ... David Musgrove -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Chris Waage Sent: 11 February 2004 03:09 To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] idiocy Ah, yes. The brilliance of the individual who can take a computer issue and turn it into a political statement. I see enough political nonsense on what little television I watch, and I would venture that a large number of list members would share the sentiment that, if you have to say something, keep it to trombones and related issues. Save your political commentaries for an appropriate forum. Chris Waage On 2/10/04 7:52 PM, "sabutin" smote the keyboard with: > ---snip--- >> >>> >>> It's nice to know that our list 'robocop' doesn't waste time >> actually reading >>> the posts that it refuses. >>> >>> In the words of my favorite philosopher: "What a maroon." >>> >>> MS >>> >> >> ---snip--- > > > Thus the superiority of the human-moderated (or unmoderated, in > the case of my own forum...)website forum. > > In that case, it depends on the web site owner, not a computer. > > We are too complex to be limited by computers, be they email > list-serves, digital recording equipment or animatrons masquerading > as presidents. > > S. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:02:39 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] idiocy I hope that monitoring of this discussion isn't going to take presidents, oops sorry, I mean precedence over the light-hearted style of the one list I have grown to love most of all. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:20:16 -0600 From: Chris Waage Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] idiocy On 2/11/04 3:28 AM, "David Musgrove" smote the keyboard with: > Chris, you obviously dislike Sam (if you don't you're going a funny way > about demonstrating anything to the contrary), and something tells me you > probably disagree with his political views (though that's not really the > point here), but I think that posts such as your last one are far less > appropriate to the list than Sam's. So is this one of mine by the way, for > which I apologise, but this is something I felt strongly that I should say > "in front of" the list and not just to you in private. My personal feelings towards Sam Burtis have nothing to do with my statement. He is not the only individual who constantly insists on throwing out their political views. My point is that this is a list for trombones and related issues, and it grows tiresome to constantly see posts which actually had some relevance to the instrument be turned into some sort of political rally. As for my political views, I prefer to voice them in an appropriate manner - the ballot box. Chris -- Chris Waage Associate Webmaster, The Online Trombone Journal www. trombone.org Bass Trombonist, Western Missouri British Brass Band Bass Trombonist, Northland Cathedral Orchestra ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:48:50 -0500 From: Denny Seifried Subject: Prototype Willson Bass with Thayer Valves List Members-especially Bass Trombonists: I had a chance to test a prototype Willson bass trombone, with Thayer = valves (TVI) last week. Please check following link onto the OTJ Forum, = as it is way too long to inflict upon the list members, unless they are = truly interested! http://forum.trombone.org/viewtopic.php?t=3D4557 Denny Seifried Bass Trombone-Springfield (OH) Symphony & Dayton Jazz Orchestra Adjunct Trombone-Wittenberg Univ. Dept. of Music OTJ Forum Staff-www.trombone.org denny@trombone.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:20:40 -0500 From: Monique Buzzarte Subject: more on Accord cases Below is the reply from the Accord people regarding my inquiry about their cases after the Feb. 8 Trombone-L posts. Note that these cases are *quite* pricey - at today exchange rate they go for $1,065 US for a regular hard case and $1,173 US for a reinforced flight version, plus tax and shipping. They're made in Croatia, the contact in the states is Accord Music Supply Co., phone (303) 691-3338. Monique At 9:35 AM -0500 2/11/04, accord@pu.htnet.hr wrote: >Thanks for your interest in our product. We are glad to send you few basic >info and photos about carbon fiber trombone case and price quotation. > >SIZES: >tenor >bass > >WEIGHT: >light (2,8 kg - 2,9kg depending if case is for tenor or for bass trombone) >-extra strong protection for everyday use >flight (3.4 kg - 3,5kg) >- recommended for airplane checking in > >COLOR OPTIONS: >-pls. see at www.accordcase.com under options and design >All colors options included in price if granulated/raster varnished, high >gloss warnish extra charged EUR 50) Metallic colors extra charged 25EUR > >Student (Hybrid combined of carbon and fiberglass) line available in black >3D and solid white color. > >Interior compartments: >2 mouth peace space, >soft pocket for small accessories >-hard shell compartment for heavier accessories >-music sheet space (available only in professional line, not in student) > >-Back pack straps >-Shoulder strap > >PRICE in EUR: >LIGHT: 840 >FLIGHT: 925 >STUDENT: 670 > >Regarding the price, pls. note that we are in the middle of promotion >campaign and reduced at introductionary level. It includes transportation >cost . EC import from Croatia is free of custom taxes according to mutual >agreements between our states and all shipment are followed by valid EUR 1. >form (certificate of origin) >We suppose , there is VAT tax you have to pay but if you inform us how much >is this it could be reduced from the invoice in advance. > >Also, from our stock list , we are offering tenor trombone case, flight >reinforced in black 3D color and red 3D, with 5% discount. High gloss >included in normal price. > -- ________________________ Monique Buzzart=E9 monique@buzzarte.org http://www.buzzarte.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:16:23 -0500 From: "John J. Jenkins" Subject: Re: more on Accord cases $1,065 US for a case? That's outrageous!!! There's definitely a problem when your case costs more than, or even nearly as much as, your horn... Cosmetically, the cases are gorgeous and seem to be well-made, but I could never justify spending that much on a case. Still in shock, John J. Jenkins >===== Original Message From Monique Buzzarte ===== >Below is the reply from the Accord people regarding my inquiry >about their cases after the Feb. 8 Trombone-L posts. Note that >these cases are *quite* pricey - at today exchange rate they go >for $1,065 US for a regular hard case and $1,173 US for a >reinforced flight version, plus tax and shipping. They're made >in Croatia, the contact in the states is Accord Music Supply >Co., phone (303) 691-3338. >Monique > >At 9:35 AM -0500 2/11/04, accord@pu.htnet.hr wrote: >>Thanks for your interest in our product. We are glad to send you few basic >>info and photos about carbon fiber trombone case and price quotation. >> >>SIZES: >>tenor >>bass >> >>WEIGHT: >>light (2,8 kg - 2,9kg depending if case is for tenor or for bass trombone) >>-extra strong protection for everyday use >>flight (3.4 kg - 3,5kg) >>- recommended for airplane checking in >> >>COLOR OPTIONS: >>-pls. see at www.accordcase.com under options and design >>All colors options included in price if granulated/raster varnished, high >>gloss warnish extra charged EUR 50) Metallic colors extra charged 25EUR >> >>Student (Hybrid combined of carbon and fiberglass) line available in black >>3D and solid white color. >> >>Interior compartments: >>2 mouth peace space, >>soft pocket for small accessories >>-hard shell compartment for heavier accessories >>-music sheet space (available only in professional line, not in student) >> >>-Back pack straps >>-Shoulder strap >> >>PRICE in EUR: >>LIGHT: 840 >>FLIGHT: 925 >>STUDENT: 670 >> >>Regarding the price, pls. note that we are in the middle of promotion >>campaign and reduced at introductionary level. It includes transportation >>cost . EC import from Croatia is free of custom taxes according to mutual >>agreements between our states and all shipment are followed by valid EUR 1. >>form (certificate of origin) >>We suppose , there is VAT tax you have to pay but if you inform us how much >>is this it could be reduced from the invoice in advance. >> >>Also, from our stock list , we are offering tenor trombone case, flight >>reinforced in black 3D color and red 3D, with 5% discount. High gloss >>included in normal price. >> > > >-- >________________________ >Monique Buzzart >monique@buzzarte.org >http://www.buzzarte.org "I have opinions of my own - strong opinions - but I don't always agree with them." - George Bush ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:53:35 -0600 From: Fred Hudson Subject: Re: idiocy/Cogito Ergo Sum ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Hudson" > If this post appears on the list will somebody please let me know! > > "I need a hug" :-( Thanks to all who responded to my "plea". With apologies to Descartes "I List, therefore I Am" Q.E.D. Fred H ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:22:14 -0600 From: Jeff Oien Subject: List Troubles Many people on OTJ have been saying they can't get onto this list. I have no idea what should be done, just wanted to point that out. http://forum.trombone.org/viewtopic.php?t=4538&highlight=trombonel Three people on that thread commented on it. Jeff Oien ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:40:23 -0600 From: Kevin Saunders Subject: Greenhoe News To the Trombone-L list, The Greenhoe website has been updated and is in "site-check" mode, and we invite all to check out the site, and let me know if anything is amiss. Please send me a post off-list. The address is: www.greenhoe.com Additionally, we will be at the TMEA convention in San Antonio this week, at exhibit spaces #3132 and 3134, and would love to see any and all list-ers who would like to try the new Greenhoe-Conn or Greenhoe-Bach trombones. Thanks a million, Kevin Saunders ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:52:35 -0800 From: Chris Tune Subject: Re: List Troubles and Ancillary Internet Issues OFF TOPIC: It could be that many folks have had their email systems examined by the current MyDoom worm that is really moving around the internet. I'm still getting emails about every day that are caught by Symantec. The latest version apparently plants the source code on each machine, with the idea that everybody infected now looks just like the developer of the infection. . . ON TOPIC: I sure miss Milt Bernhart. I realise how much I was influenced by him every day now (Peanut Vendor. . .first weeks I started on Baritone Horn and Trb). . .he helped establish the bone sound of the Kenton orchestra and played the I Got You Under My Skin solo, which I've taken down and played lately on Rat Pack gigs. Mortal man has this burden of only being on earth for a short time. It's amazing what beauty so many can leave behind. . .He was funny too! OFF AGAIN: Also, even tho' this is Off Topic, I'd like to remind everyone with Win 2000 and Win XP to Update asap, because a very critical vulnerability has been found that permeates these operating systems. This vulnerability allows for multiple ways to hack into and control a Win 2000 + system. As of now, no know exploits are being run on any kind of large scale basis. I'd suggest that situation may change any day now. The hackers at the security companies are describing a very draconian level of potential problems here!! Tune ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Oien" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 9:22 AM Subject: [TBN-L] List Troubles > Many people on OTJ have been saying they can't get onto > this list. I have no idea what should be done, just wanted to > point that out. > > http://forum.trombone.org/viewtopic.php?t=4538&highlight=trombonel > Three people on that thread commented on it. > Jeff Oien > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:08:05 -0800 From: John B Subject: Nice Shires .525 For Sale I have a really nice Shires Straight .525 and Walt Johnson Case for sale on the Online Trombone Journal Classifieds Page. Please check it out if you're looking for a horn. Thanks...John http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/instruments.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 13:08:11 -0800 From: John B Subject: Jazz Styles & Analysis I apologize for saturation bombing but I also have something up for auction that would be of interest to many of you. It's David Baker's "Jazz Styles & Analysis" for trombone. It's from 1973 so no, Conrad Herwig's not in there. Thanks. John http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3703834398 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:07:57 -0700 From: Bill Stanley Subject: Re: Jazz Styles & Analysis Speking of Conrad Herwig - He will be performing with the CU jazz Ensemble I, Wed. Feb 18, 7:30 Macky Auditorium and with them at the Mile-High Jazz Festival Feb. 18-20. He will also do a clinic on Thursday Feb. 19 at CU in the large rehearsal facility. Contact me for more information. Bill Stanley College of Music University of Colorado 303/492-5469 http://spot.colorado.edu/~stanleyw -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of John B Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 2:08 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] Jazz Styles & Analysis I apologize for saturation bombing but I also have something up for auction that would be of interest to many of you. It's David Baker's "Jazz Styles & Analysis" for trombone. It's from 1973 so no, Conrad Herwig's not in there. Thanks. John http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3703834398 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 18:23:58 -0500 From: David Shriver Subject: Re: more on Accord cases Yikes! The cases are beautiful but $1,200 is just way more than I'd be willing to pay. Thanks, Monique, for getting us some more info on these cases. Clear Skies, David Shriver -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Monique Buzzarte Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 10:21 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] more on Accord cases Below is the reply from the Accord people regarding my inquiry about their cases after the Feb. 8 Trombone-L posts. Note that these cases are *quite* pricey - at today exchange rate they go for $1,065 US for a regular hard case and $1,173 US for a reinforced flight version, plus tax and shipping. They're made in Croatia, the contact in the states is Accord Music Supply Co., phone (303) 691-3338. Monique At 9:35 AM -0500 2/11/04, accord@pu.htnet.hr wrote: >Thanks for your interest in our product. We are glad to send you few basic >info and photos about carbon fiber trombone case and price quotation. > >SIZES: >tenor >bass > >WEIGHT: >light (2,8 kg - 2,9kg depending if case is for tenor or for bass trombone) >-extra strong protection for everyday use >flight (3.4 kg - 3,5kg) >- recommended for airplane checking in > >COLOR OPTIONS: >-pls. see at www.accordcase.com under options and design >All colors options included in price if granulated/raster varnished, high >gloss warnish extra charged EUR 50) Metallic colors extra charged 25EUR > >Student (Hybrid combined of carbon and fiberglass) line available in black >3D and solid white color. > >Interior compartments: >2 mouth peace space, >soft pocket for small accessories >-hard shell compartment for heavier accessories >-music sheet space (available only in professional line, not in student) > >-Back pack straps >-Shoulder strap > >PRICE in EUR: >LIGHT: 840 >FLIGHT: 925 >STUDENT: 670 > >Regarding the price, pls. note that we are in the middle of promotion >campaign and reduced at introductionary level. It includes transportation >cost . EC import from Croatia is free of custom taxes according to mutual >agreements between our states and all shipment are followed by valid EUR 1. >form (certificate of origin) >We suppose , there is VAT tax you have to pay but if you inform us how much >is this it could be reduced from the invoice in advance. > >Also, from our stock list , we are offering tenor trombone case, flight >reinforced in black 3D color and red 3D, with 5% discount. High gloss >included in normal price. > -- ________________________ Monique BuzzartŽ monique@buzzarte.org http://www.buzzarte.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 18:25:58 -0500 From: David Shriver Subject: Tuning of a trill valve What is the common tuning for a trill valve on an alto trombone? The rule on trills is to trill to the diatonic pitch above the written note. This would lead me to believe that most trills would be a whole step (or a M2). However, after looking at several horns with trill valves (both altos and tenors) it appears that they have an 1/2 step (or a m2) tuning on the valve. Clear Skies, David Shriver ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 17:11:49 -0700 From: James Scott Subject: Re: Tuning of a trill valve David - Most of the horns that have a trill valve (vs. a B Flat attachment) are tuned to a half step, since there's usually a decent way to trill a whole step as a lip trill, but when the proper interval is a half step, that's more problematic. The proper interval for the trill depends on where you are in relation to the key, or at least the implied key at that moment. Trills at cadences are usually a half step. Personally, I usually find either an alternate position that gives me a better lip trill (with half steps in adjacent positions) or I do some other type of ornament. Jim Scott David Shriver wrote: >What is the common tuning for a trill valve on an alto trombone? > >The rule on trills is to trill to the diatonic pitch above the written >note. This would lead me to believe that most trills would be a whole >step (or a M2). However, after looking at several horns with trill >valves (both altos and tenors) it appears that they have an 1/2 step (or >a m2) tuning on the valve. > >Clear Skies, >David Shriver > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 02:44:17 +0000 From: "J.c. Sherman" Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] idiocy No Humans Please.... (my translation of the attached - both sides of the argument) J.c.S. > On 2/11/04 3:28 AM, "David Musgrove" > smote the keyboard with: > > > Chris, you obviously dislike Sam (if you don't you're going a funny way > > about demonstrating anything to the contrary), and something tells me you > > probably disagree with his political views (though that's not really the > > point here), but I think that posts such as your last one are far less > > appropriate to the list than Sam's. So is this one of mine by the way, for > > which I apologise, but this is something I felt strongly that I should say > > "in front of" the list and not just to you in private. > > > My personal feelings towards Sam Burtis have nothing to do with my > statement. He is not the only individual who constantly insists on throwing > out their political views. > > My point is that this is a list for trombones and related issues, and it > grows tiresome to constantly see posts which actually had some relevance to > the instrument be turned into some sort of political rally. > > As for my political views, I prefer to voice them in an appropriate manner - > the ballot box. > > Chris > > -- > Chris Waage > Associate Webmaster, > The Online Trombone Journal > www. trombone.org > Bass Trombonist, > Western Missouri British Brass Band > Bass Trombonist, > Northland Cathedral Orchestra ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 10 Feb 2004 to 11 Feb 2004 (#2004-43) ****************************************************************