Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 8 Feb 2004 to 9 Feb 2004 (#2004-41) Date: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 13 messages totalling 1083 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Teele style was RE: [TBN-L] Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds (3) 2. OTJ Classifieds Update - 2/9/04 3. ITA Competition Results 4. from Suter - revenge (6) 5. Teele style was RE: [TBN-L] Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds 6. Teele style was RE: [TBN-L] Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 06:57:38 -0600 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: Teele style was RE: [TBN-L] Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds Paul said: The part about the Teele studies that is absolutely crucial is CORRECT FORM. The exercises are simple enough that you can concentrate enough on form to the point that it gets to be very natural and automatic, and unless you have that, you really don't have much. =================================================== That is what I got from the Teele book: His written instruction regarding the form of doing these excersises. What I actually play is only slightly similar to what he suggests, but the WAY I play it is what has made the difference for me. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 08:10:18 -0600 From: Chris Waage Subject: OTJ Classifieds Update - 2/9/04 The Online Trombone Journal Classifieds (http://www.trombone.org/classifieds) have been updated as of 8:10 AM CST on February 9, 2004. - - - - - Thank you for using the OTJ Classifieds! - - - - - OTJ Classifieds Frequently Asked Questions http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/faq.asp OTJ Gift Shoppe: http://www.cafepress.com/cp/store/store.aspx?storeid=trombones If you have any questions or comments about the Online Trombone Journal Classifieds, please contact me at chris@trombone.org. Chris Waage -- Chris Waage Associate Webmaster, The Online Trombone Journal www. trombone.org Bass Trombonist, Western Missouri British Brass Band Bass Trombonist, Northland Cathedral Orchestra ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 07:03:27 -0800 From: Joshua Brown Subject: ITA Competition Results Hi all, A partial list of the 2004 ITA Competition finalists has been posted on the ITA website: http://www.trombone.net/competitions/ Check back over the next few days for a complete list. Josh __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 07:18:05 -0800 From: Chris Tune Subject: Re: Teele style was RE: [TBN-L] Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds Yes and when you listen to Phil talk (he is pretty quiet, so he's not always talking) it's usually about personal experiences with people. Things like that. He's not always yaking about equipment. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul D. Kemp Jr." To: Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Teele style was RE: [TBN-L] Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds > Dear Jeff and list: > I really don't think that this whole thing has to do with big, dark bass > trombone sounds at all. It has EVERYTHING to do with just being able to > REPEATABLY being able to sound CHARACTERISTIC on the horn, PERIOD, > regardless of whether you play tenor or bass. The Teele long tone studies > were literally the turning point in my entire trombone playing life, along > with some very specific key pieces of information concerning respiration. I > have said, and still believe, that it is possible to do ANY exercise wrong, > and that includes long tones, mouthpiece buzzing, ANYTHING. The part about > the Teele studies that is absolutely crucial is CORRECT FORM. The exercises > are simple enough that you can concentrate enough on form to the point that > it gets to be very natural and automatic, and unless you have that, you > really don't have much. Being able to do long tones very well is literally > THE KEY to being able play everything else well also. Long tones force you > to really concentrate on a very smooth, unimpeded airstream, and also on the > idea that it's the intercostal muscles that do the largest part of the work > when we play. If you're trying to develop a sound that will get past the > oboe player in a decent sized orchestra, this is how you do it. > I don't think that it is necessary for tenor trombone players to do long > tones quite to the extent that our bass trombone and tuba playing colleagues > must. The plain, simple fact that everyone MUST realize is that it's all > about developing the strength and efficiency of the embouchure to the point > that you can literally do anything on the horn. Larger mouthpieces require > more strength to play than the smaller ones do. Simple fact of life. I can > share this from personal experience: being able to sound great in the lower > part of the middle register (middle F down to 7th position B natural) and > the lower register (2nd line Bb on down into the valve and pedal registers > for the F-attachment players) is VITAL to sounding great on the upper half > of the middle register (middle F up to F above middle Bb) and the upper > register (F# and above). It really does take more strength to be able to > control the airstream in the lower register where you are playing through a > bigger aperture than it does in the upper register. Like Phil Teele says, as > you are going into the upper register, the embouchure literally clamps down > on the airstream. All of this is done in a very free, easy, relaxed sort of > way---no strain. > Incidentally, I was talking to someone this past week about what made > playing Mahler difficult, as we had the immense pleasure of performing the > 9th symphony this past week. In my opinion, it has to do with the intense > breathing demands. I mentioned this to the tuba player, and he said > something quite profound: "EVERYTHING I PLAY ON THE TUBA IS ABOUT > BREATHING." There is definitely a lesson there for all of us. > I'd like to throw something else out there too, if I may. We haven't > really discussed equipment and how it relates to this whole mess, but I do > have an opinion, and this is certainly not intended to be a slam against > anyone, but simply an observation that I've made. Here goes: > The trend over the past 20+ years has been to go towards larger and > larger equipment---mouthpieces, leadpipes, no leadpipes, more open valves > (Thayers), dual bore slides, larger and larger horns, etc, etc, etc. I am > absolutely convinced that the equipment manufacturers are having a field day > with all of us. My observations are that because of this trend, we must > actually work harder than our predecessors did in order to achieve the same > results. Since I am primarily an orchestral player, I am constantly faced > with this dilemma, and a dilemma it truly is. The question that I am > constantly faced with is this: JUST HOW LOUD DO WE REALLY HAVE TO PLAY > ANYWAY? It takes more strength and energy to play at the extremely > heightened decibel levels. We all tend to listen to our stereos at > heightened decibel levels, and I think this has an awful lot to do with this > dilemma. For example, if you're listening to the Chicago Symphony of the > 70's play Tchaikovsky, and when you hear that absolutely glorious brass > sound, (and yes, I have heard them play live, and it is truly awe-inspiring, > to say the least) it really sounds fantastic when you crank it, and what's > even more amazing is if you have the speakers that can handle it, the sound > never distorts. What is really incredible (to my way of thinking, anyway) > about that era is that all of those brass players were using very reasonably > sized equipment, and they all played with a team concept with a unified > brass section sound that really projected to the audience. And, it was all > about EASE OF PLAYING. In other words, it was LITERALLY no more difficult > than deep breathing. > I guess what I'm really trying to say is this: if you're going to play > the larger equipment, then be prepared to have to do more work, and there > does come a point where there truly is this thing of diminishing > returns---less product for all of that effort you're expending. > Incidentally, since we have been talking some about Phil Teele, it might > surprise all of you to know that unless he has made an equipment change, he > plays on a Yamaha bass trombone with rotors, and he also uses something in > the neighborhood of the Schilke 59 mouthpiece. Not large equipment, > certainly by today's standards, and he is one of the busiest studio > musicians in LA and he possesses an absolutely terrific sound. I think that > it would be safe to say that he has definitely worked more on HIMSELF than > he has on his gear, as this was the philosophy of the musicians of > yesteryear. > > Food for thought. > > Paul Kemp > Chattanooga Symphony > www.trbnplyr.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeff Albert" > To: > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 5:15 PM > Subject: [TBN-L] Teele style was RE: [TBN-L] Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone > sounds > > > > As Gabe says, just doing part of the Teele exercises has helped me. I > don't > > even really do the warm up. I have been playing 10 repeated long tones > (one > > breath's worth each) starting on pedal Bb and moving down chromatically as > > far as I can go and keep the mmm embouchure that he talks about. I > usually > > get to F or E, Eb if it's a good day. This has made a staggering > difference > > in my sound and mobility in the trigger and pedal ranges. > > > > Most of my work is on tenor, so I can't even devote a majority of my > > practice time to bass trombone, much less bass trombone long tones, but if > I > > do my altered version of the Teele warm up, some Faulise style > flexibilities > > through the valve range, and a Blazevich tuba etude or a Pederson etude or > > the like, EVERYDAY, my bass playing seems to get better (of course, it has > > room to move that way). That takes me about 30 minutes on bass. > > > > Jeff Albert > > > > www.jeffalbert.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Trombones and related issues forum. > > [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Gabriel Langfur > > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 1:37 PM > > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds > > > > This is all great stuff from Doug. > > > > --- Douglas Rowe wrote: > > > Personally, while I could see the Phil Teele excercises > > > being of great > > > value in developing low register, I don't have enough > > > time to play each > > > days group of excercises in addition to practicing the > > > music I need to > > > practice AND working a full time job. I have his book, > > > but I probably > > > won't end up playing from it much unless I quit (or lose) > > > my day job. > > > > Doug, and John...you might be surprised at how doing even a > > small amount of the Phil Teele-style long tones can have a > > profound effect. There's something about playing the same > > note for a longer time than you ever thought reasonable... > > > > The key is paying attention to the form - starting with > > your mouth in the formation of the letter M, keeping the > > mouthpiece setting from your middle register, and just > > going for it, not worrying too much about how it sounds at > > first. Even just doing the warmup page every day can start > > to change things for the better, as long as you stick with > > it all the way down to the pedal C, regardless of how it > > sounds - getting out even a weak, thin pedal C with your > > middle register embouchure makes everything work better - > > at least for me. > > > > Anyway, like I said, Doug's advice is fantastic, and if > > you're paying attention and doing those types of things > > diligently, you'll see improvement. Like I also said, > > however, nothing has ever had more of an effect for me than > > the long tones. > > > > ===== > > Gabe Langfur > > Boston, MA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 14:54:45 EST From: MikeSuter@AOL.COM Subject: from Suter - revenge Hi All, Every once in a while . . . I've been having problems with my computer. This has caused me to speak with WEBMASTERS. If there's anything in this world to avoid, it's WEBMASTERS. As I explained my problem to one particular WEBMASTER, He started sighing. At first it was soft, but eventually grew to mini-tornado proportions. After just a few sentences the WEBMASTER cut me off with a disdainful: "Look, It's no big deal. Everybody knows you just access the NIHS TOHTDS file and rendiandkrn the 2nd mrifb sjfntn from the end and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah etc. You know how - just after you've hung up the phone - you say to yourself: "What I should have said was . . . "? Well, I finally had that flash of inspiration before the fact. I interrupted the patronizing techie in mid-word with: "By-the-way, how do you play low B-flat on the G side of an in-line bass trombone?" after a couple of seconds of stunned silence the know-it-all techie said he had no idea what I was talking about. "Well, you dummy" (I used a different term there) "anybody knows it's in 5th position! What the heck's (I used a different term there, too) wrong with you?" and hung up on him. Aha!! I GOT HIM!! Of course, I still can't access any of my saved sites, and my e-mail takes forever to load, but I GOT HIM!! Score one for the guys who don't live from byte to byte (I hope that's not a fat joke. I'm very sensitive about that). Mike Suter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 15:53:55 -0500 From: Art Triggs Subject: Re: from Suter - revenge lol.hope you felt better....heh...only one teeny minor little problem with that, you never know when you will find a webmaster that may also be a basstrombonist, there are more than one on this list....I always thought that the best reply to a question like that would be "very carefully.....and only if you can make the tone even with the rest of the passage you are playing" Best Art Triggs what data?...you didnt need that anyway....>:-] semi retired bass trombonist, Systems admin/e-mail admin, "dont mess with the sysadmin, they can make you burned and crispy, and taste good with ketchup" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:30:49 +1100 From: hlmswlkr@OZEMAIL.COM.AU Subject: Re: Teele style was RE: [TBN-L] Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds G'day all, One thing I've come to notice over the last few years is the gradual lack of "characteristic-ness" in many trombone players sounds. Playing bigger, heavier bells, huge daul bore slides etc, and sounding DULL in everything but FFFFF dynamic levels. Any thing at "p" dynamic is lifeless and flabby. Then these people go on and say "geez I'd love to sound like George Roberts, or the Chicago section, or Joe" etc etc. It really is a no brainer..... Sam Burtis said to me some time ago, if there is a sound or player you like, find out what they play, and play it yourself, then you get a great insight into WHY they sound the way they do. So I tried the theory. I bought a Conn 70H (George Roberts), and a Conn 62H (Bill Reichenbach) and a suitable mouthpiece, and learnt how to play them. You know what? Sounding like those guys is SO much easier using appropriate gear, than using an orchestral dual bore 20 guage double thayer Edwards behemoth. Also regarding volume. The older horns, with heavy slides and light bells also project much better in all dynamics, for much less effort, because the harmonic make up of the sound is much richer and "energetic". I don't have to play as loud (db wise) to match the other guys using their light slide, heavy bell Bach's. And yes they've noticed that the Conn makes a much more interesting sound than the woof-o-phones they play..... Cheers Matthew Walker Bass Trombonist, Opera Australia Walker's Instrument Repair, "The Brassery" > > From: "Paul D. Kemp Jr." > Date: 09/02/2004 16:38:52 > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Teele style was RE: [TBN-L] Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone > sounds > > Dear Jeff and list: > I really don't think that this whole thing has to do with big, dark bass > trombone sounds at all. It has EVERYTHING to do with just being able to > REPEATABLY being able to sound CHARACTERISTIC on the horn, PERIOD, > regardless of whether you play tenor or bass. The Teele long tone studies > were literally the turning point in my entire trombone playing life, along > with some very specific key pieces of information concerning respiration. I > have said, and still believe, that it is possible to do ANY exercise wrong, > and that includes long tones, mouthpiece buzzing, ANYTHING. The part about > the Teele studies that is absolutely crucial is CORRECT FORM. The exercises > are simple enough that you can concentrate enough on form to the point that > it gets to be very natural and automatic, and unless you have that, you > really don't have much. Being able to do long tones very well is literally > THE KEY to being able play everything else well also. Long tones force you > to really concentrate on a very smooth, unimpeded airstream, and also on the > idea that it's the intercostal muscles that do the largest part of the work > when we play. If you're trying to develop a sound that will get past the > oboe player in a decent sized orchestra, this is how you do it. > I don't think that it is necessary for tenor trombone players to do long > tones quite to the extent that our bass trombone and tuba playing colleagues > must. The plain, simple fact that everyone MUST realize is that it's all > about developing the strength and efficiency of the embouchure to the point > that you can literally do anything on the horn. Larger mouthpieces require > more strength to play than the smaller ones do. Simple fact of life. I can > share this from personal experience: being able to sound great in the lower > part of the middle register (middle F down to 7th position B natural) and > the lower register (2nd line Bb on down into the valve and pedal registers > for the F-attachment players) is VITAL to sounding great on the upper half > of the middle register (middle F up to F above middle Bb) and the upper > register (F# and above). It really does take more strength to be able to > control the airstream in the lower register where you are playing through a > bigger aperture than it does in the upper register. Like Phil Teele says, as > you are going into the upper register, the embouchure literally clamps down > on the airstream. All of this is done in a very free, easy, relaxed sort of > way---no strain. > Incidentally, I was talking to someone this past week about what made > playing Mahler difficult, as we had the immense pleasure of performing the > 9th symphony this past week. In my opinion, it has to do with the intense > breathing demands. I mentioned this to the tuba player, and he said > something quite profound: "EVERYTHING I PLAY ON THE TUBA IS ABOUT > BREATHING." There is definitely a lesson there for all of us. > I'd like to throw something else out there too, if I may. We haven't > really discussed equipment and how it relates to this whole mess, but I do > have an opinion, and this is certainly not intended to be a slam against > anyone, but simply an observation that I've made. Here goes: > The trend over the past 20+ years has been to go towards larger and > larger equipment---mouthpieces, leadpipes, no leadpipes, more open valves > (Thayers), dual bore slides, larger and larger horns, etc, etc, etc. I am > absolutely convinced that the equipment manufacturers are having a field day > with all of us. My observations are that because of this trend, we must > actually work harder than our predecessors did in order to achieve the same > results. Since I am primarily an orchestral player, I am constantly faced > with this dilemma, and a dilemma it truly is. The question that I am > constantly faced with is this: JUST HOW LOUD DO WE REALLY HAVE TO PLAY > ANYWAY? It takes more strength and energy to play at the extremely > heightened decibel levels. We all tend to listen to our stereos at > heightened decibel levels, and I think this has an awful lot to do with this > dilemma. For example, if you're listening to the Chicago Symphony of the > 70's play Tchaikovsky, and when you hear that absolutely glorious brass > sound, (and yes, I have heard them play live, and it is truly awe-inspiring, > to say the least) it really sounds fantastic when you crank it, and what's > even more amazing is if you have the speakers that can handle it, the sound > never distorts. What is really incredible (to my way of thinking, anyway) > about that era is that all of those brass players were using very reasonably > sized equipment, and they all played with a team concept with a unified > brass section sound that really projected to the audience. And, it was all > about EASE OF PLAYING. In other words, it was LITERALLY no more difficult > than deep breathing. > I guess what I'm really trying to say is this: if you're going to play > the larger equipment, then be prepared to have to do more work, and there > does come a point where there truly is this thing of diminishing > returns---less product for all of that effort you're expending. > Incidentally, since we have been talking some about Phil Teele, it might > surprise all of you to know that unless he has made an equipment change, he > plays on a Yamaha bass trombone with rotors, and he also uses something in > the neighborhood of the Schilke 59 mouthpiece. Not large equipment, > certainly by today's standards, and he is one of the busiest studio > musicians in LA and he possesses an absolutely terrific sound. I think that > it would be safe to say that he has definitely worked more on HIMSELF than > he has on his gear, as this was the philosophy of the musicians of > yesteryear. > > Food for thought. > > Paul Kemp > Chattanooga Symphony > www.trbnplyr.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeff Albert" > To: > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 5:15 PM > Subject: [TBN-L] Teele style was RE: [TBN-L] Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone > sounds > > > > As Gabe says, just doing part of the Teele exercises has helped me. I > don't > > even really do the warm up. I have been playing 10 repeated long tones > (one > > breath's worth each) starting on pedal Bb and moving down chromatically as > > far as I can go and keep the mmm embouchure that he talks about. I > usually > > get to F or E, Eb if it's a good day. This has made a staggering > difference > > in my sound and mobility in the trigger and pedal ranges. > > > > Most of my work is on tenor, so I can't even devote a majority of my > > practice time to bass trombone, much less bass trombone long tones, but if > I > > do my altered version of the Teele warm up, some Faulise style > flexibilities > > through the valve range, and a Blazevich tuba etude or a Pederson etude or > > the like, EVERYDAY, my bass playing seems to get better (of course, it has > > room to move that way). That takes me about 30 minutes on bass. > > > > Jeff Albert > > > > www.jeffalbert.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Trombones and related issues forum. > > [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Gabriel Langfur > > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 1:37 PM > > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds > > > > This is all great stuff from Doug. > > > > --- Douglas Rowe wrote: > > > Personally, while I could see the Phil Teele excercises > > > being of great > > > value in developing low register, I don't have enough > > > time to play each > > > days group of excercises in addition to practicing the > > > music I need to > > > practice AND working a full time job. I have his book, > > > but I probably > > > won't end up playing from it much unless I quit (or lose) > > > my day job. > > > > Doug, and John...you might be surprised at how doing even a > > small amount of the Phil Teele-style long tones can have a > > profound effect. There's something about playing the same > > note for a longer time than you ever thought reasonable... > > > > The key is paying attention to the form - starting with > > your mouth in the formation of the letter M, keeping the > > mouthpiece setting from your middle register, and just > > going for it, not worrying too much about how it sounds at > > first. Even just doing the warmup page every day can start > > to change things for the better, as long as you stick with > > it all the way down to the pedal C, regardless of how it > > sounds - getting out even a weak, thin pedal C with your > > middle register embouchure makes everything work better - > > at least for me. > > > > Anyway, like I said, Doug's advice is fantastic, and if > > you're paying attention and doing those types of things > > diligently, you'll see improvement. Like I also said, > > however, nothing has ever had more of an effect for me than > > the long tones. > > > > ===== > > Gabe Langfur > > Boston, MA > This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 00:41:40 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: from Suter - revenge Mike, I started programming computers and eventually was designing them at IBM, in the Î60s. Iâve been an engineer, working in computers every since, other than a few years when I actually earned my living playing music. I havenât a clue what those guys are saying. And I donât even say, ãHey Bub, you know how you used to blow all of your lunch money and church money playing arcade games? Well, thanks for paying my salary, Suchah!ä No, I just let them know how truly stupid I am, when it comes to operating systems, that I didnât write, and they wait for me to figure out what theyâre talking about, step by step. They can tell that youâre not an idiot, by your sentence structure, etc. And they get paid for helping folk like you. If they do get out of line, crack a ãjokeä about hoe theyâd be unemployed and unemployable, if there werenât people like you. And let them know that you appreciate that theyâve got this strange brand of masochism, that has them doing what they do for a living. Which reminds me·the last time I had problems with my DSL, the tech support guy I wound up talking with was a jazz bass trombonist in Colorado. Now what would you have done if he had told you the correct answer? DanP _________________________________________________________________ Plan your next US getaway to one of the super destinations here. http://special.msn.com/local/hotdestinations.armx ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 20:09:30 EST From: Phil Keen Subject: Re: from Suter - revenge In a message dated 2/9/2004 4:42:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,=20 daniel_pliskin@HOTMAIL.COM writes: Which reminds me=E2=80=A6the last time I had problems with my DSL, the tech=20= support guy I wound up talking with was a jazz bass trombonist in Colorado. =20 That's interesting. I just got finished last night trying to get my DSL to=20 work with help from a SBC technician. His accent/English was so poor I could= n't=20 understand him worth a darn, so I asked for a supervisor to explain it bette= r.=20 He'd have none of this so he felt it necessary to explain it again..........= =20 After the same run around I couldn't resist so I asked his name and where he= =20 was calling from. He stated that information was not available for security=20 reasons. ??=20 That 60 Minutes episode about customer service being routed to India came to= =20 mind...........=20 Phil Keen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 21:15:36 -0500 From: Raymond Horton Subject: Re: from Suter - revenge Last November I talked with seven different Dell tech reps in India over a period of a few weeks. All but one spoke excellent, Kings' English, and were excellent help. When I was stuck making small talk with one for several minutes while we waited for his superior to make a decision, the rep told me how much he cherished working for Dell. I was truly sorry, later, to hear that Dell terminated their contract. RH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Keen" To: Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 8:09 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] from Suter - revenge In a message dated 2/9/2004 4:42:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, daniel_pliskin@HOTMAIL.COM writes: Which reminds me‰¥Ïthe last time I had problems with my DSL, the tech support guy I wound up talking with was a jazz bass trombonist in Colorado. That's interesting. I just got finished last night trying to get my DSL to work with help from a SBC technician. His accent/English was so poor I couldn't understand him worth a darn, so I asked for a supervisor to explain it better. He'd have none of this so he felt it necessary to explain it again.......... After the same run around I couldn't resist so I asked his name and where he was calling from. He stated that information was not available for security reasons. ?? That 60 Minutes episode about customer service being routed to India came to mind........... Phil Keen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 18:36:13 -0500 From: Roger Hecht Subject: Re: Teele style was RE: [TBN-L] Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds I have been through this experience. Very heavy to one of Shire's lighter red bells and a lighter mouthpiece. What you have written parallels my experience exactly. >>One thing I've come to notice over the last few years is the gradual lack of "characteristic-ness" in many trombone players sounds. Playing bigger, heavier bells, huge daul bore slides etc, and sounding DULL in everything but FFFFF dynamic levels. Any thing at "p" dynamic is lifeless and flabby. Then these people go on and say "geez I'd love to sound like George Roberts, or the Chicago section, or Joe" etc etc. It really is a no brainer..... >Sam Burtis said to me some time ago, if there is a sound or player you >like, find out what they play, and play it yourself, then you get a great >insight into WHY they sound the way they do. So I tried the theory. I >bought a Conn 70H (George Roberts), and a Conn 62H (Bill Reichenbach) and >a suitable mouthpiece, and learnt how to play them. You know what? >Sounding like those guys is SO much easier using appropriate gear, than >using an orchestral dual bore 20 guage double thayer Edwards behemoth. > >Also regarding volume. The older horns, with heavy slides and light bells >also project much better in all dynamics, for much less effort, because >the harmonic make up of the sound is much richer and "energetic". I don't >have to play as loud (db wise) to match the other guys using their light >slide, heavy bell Bach's. And yes they've noticed that the Conn makes a >much more interesting sound than the woof-o-phones they play..... > >Cheers >Matthew Walker >Bass Trombonist, Opera Australia >Walker's Instrument Repair, "The Brassery" Roger Hecht ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 18:46:43 -0800 From: Chris Tune Subject: Re: Teele style was RE: [TBN-L] Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds So THAT'S how to do it. . . This is soooo true. Roberts and Reichenbach and Teele for that matter are not lugging around immense .600 bore bass bones. Never have, never will from what I can ascertain. . . Chris Tune ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Teele style was RE: [TBN-L] Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds > G'day all, > > One thing I've come to notice over the last few years is the gradual lack of "characteristic-ness" in many trombone players sounds. Playing bigger, heavier bells, huge daul bore slides etc, and sounding DULL in everything but FFFFF dynamic levels. Any thing at "p" dynamic is lifeless and flabby. Then these people go on and say "geez I'd love to sound like George Roberts, or the Chicago section, or Joe" etc etc. It really is a no brainer..... > > Sam Burtis said to me some time ago, if there is a sound or player you like, find out what they play, and play it yourself, then you get a great insight into WHY they sound the way they do. So I tried the theory. I bought a Conn 70H (George Roberts), and a Conn 62H (Bill Reichenbach) and a suitable mouthpiece, and learnt how to play them. You know what? Sounding like those guys is SO much easier using appropriate gear, than using an orchestral dual bore 20 guage double thayer Edwards behemoth. > > Also regarding volume. The older horns, with heavy slides and light bells also project much better in all dynamics, for much less effort, because the harmonic make up of the sound is much richer and "energetic". I don't have to play as loud (db wise) to match the other guys using their light slide, heavy bell Bach's. And yes they've noticed that the Conn makes a much more interesting sound than the woof-o-phones they play..... > > Cheers > Matthew Walker > Bass Trombonist, Opera Australia > Walker's Instrument Repair, "The Brassery" > > > > > > > > From: "Paul D. Kemp Jr." > > Date: 09/02/2004 16:38:52 > > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Teele style was RE: [TBN-L] Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone > > sounds > > > > Dear Jeff and list: > > I really don't think that this whole thing has to do with big, dark bass > > trombone sounds at all. It has EVERYTHING to do with just being able to > > REPEATABLY being able to sound CHARACTERISTIC on the horn, PERIOD, > > regardless of whether you play tenor or bass. The Teele long tone studies > > were literally the turning point in my entire trombone playing life, along > > with some very specific key pieces of information concerning respiration. I > > have said, and still believe, that it is possible to do ANY exercise wrong, > > and that includes long tones, mouthpiece buzzing, ANYTHING. The part about > > the Teele studies that is absolutely crucial is CORRECT FORM. The exercises > > are simple enough that you can concentrate enough on form to the point that > > it gets to be very natural and automatic, and unless you have that, you > > really don't have much. Being able to do long tones very well is literally > > THE KEY to being able play everything else well also. Long tones force you > > to really concentrate on a very smooth, unimpeded airstream, and also on the > > idea that it's the intercostal muscles that do the largest part of the work > > when we play. If you're trying to develop a sound that will get past the > > oboe player in a decent sized orchestra, this is how you do it. > > I don't think that it is necessary for tenor trombone players to do long > > tones quite to the extent that our bass trombone and tuba playing colleagues > > must. The plain, simple fact that everyone MUST realize is that it's all > > about developing the strength and efficiency of the embouchure to the point > > that you can literally do anything on the horn. Larger mouthpieces require > > more strength to play than the smaller ones do. Simple fact of life. I can > > share this from personal experience: being able to sound great in the lower > > part of the middle register (middle F down to 7th position B natural) and > > the lower register (2nd line Bb on down into the valve and pedal registers > > for the F-attachment players) is VITAL to sounding great on the upper half > > of the middle register (middle F up to F above middle Bb) and the upper > > register (F# and above). It really does take more strength to be able to > > control the airstream in the lower register where you are playing through a > > bigger aperture than it does in the upper register. Like Phil Teele says, as > > you are going into the upper register, the embouchure literally clamps down > > on the airstream. All of this is done in a very free, easy, relaxed sort of > > way---no strain. > > Incidentally, I was talking to someone this past week about what made > > playing Mahler difficult, as we had the immense pleasure of performing the > > 9th symphony this past week. In my opinion, it has to do with the intense > > breathing demands. I mentioned this to the tuba player, and he said > > something quite profound: "EVERYTHING I PLAY ON THE TUBA IS ABOUT > > BREATHING." There is definitely a lesson there for all of us. > > I'd like to throw something else out there too, if I may. We haven't > > really discussed equipment and how it relates to this whole mess, but I do > > have an opinion, and this is certainly not intended to be a slam against > > anyone, but simply an observation that I've made. Here goes: > > The trend over the past 20+ years has been to go towards larger and > > larger equipment---mouthpieces, leadpipes, no leadpipes, more open valves > > (Thayers), dual bore slides, larger and larger horns, etc, etc, etc. I am > > absolutely convinced that the equipment manufacturers are having a field day > > with all of us. My observations are that because of this trend, we must > > actually work harder than our predecessors did in order to achieve the same > > results. Since I am primarily an orchestral player, I am constantly faced > > with this dilemma, and a dilemma it truly is. The question that I am > > constantly faced with is this: JUST HOW LOUD DO WE REALLY HAVE TO PLAY > > ANYWAY? It takes more strength and energy to play at the extremely > > heightened decibel levels. We all tend to listen to our stereos at > > heightened decibel levels, and I think this has an awful lot to do with this > > dilemma. For example, if you're listening to the Chicago Symphony of the > > 70's play Tchaikovsky, and when you hear that absolutely glorious brass > > sound, (and yes, I have heard them play live, and it is truly awe-inspiring, > > to say the least) it really sounds fantastic when you crank it, and what's > > even more amazing is if you have the speakers that can handle it, the sound > > never distorts. What is really incredible (to my way of thinking, anyway) > > about that era is that all of those brass players were using very reasonably > > sized equipment, and they all played with a team concept with a unified > > brass section sound that really projected to the audience. And, it was all > > about EASE OF PLAYING. In other words, it was LITERALLY no more difficult > > than deep breathing. > > I guess what I'm really trying to say is this: if you're going to play > > the larger equipment, then be prepared to have to do more work, and there > > does come a point where there truly is this thing of diminishing > > returns---less product for all of that effort you're expending. > > Incidentally, since we have been talking some about Phil Teele, it might > > surprise all of you to know that unless he has made an equipment change, he > > plays on a Yamaha bass trombone with rotors, and he also uses something in > > the neighborhood of the Schilke 59 mouthpiece. Not large equipment, > > certainly by today's standards, and he is one of the busiest studio > > musicians in LA and he possesses an absolutely terrific sound. I think that > > it would be safe to say that he has definitely worked more on HIMSELF than > > he has on his gear, as this was the philosophy of the musicians of > > yesteryear. > > > > Food for thought. > > > > Paul Kemp > > Chattanooga Symphony > > www.trbnplyr.com > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jeff Albert" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 5:15 PM > > Subject: [TBN-L] Teele style was RE: [TBN-L] Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone > > sounds > > > > > > > As Gabe says, just doing part of the Teele exercises has helped me. I > > don't > > > even really do the warm up. I have been playing 10 repeated long tones > > (one > > > breath's worth each) starting on pedal Bb and moving down chromatically as > > > far as I can go and keep the mmm embouchure that he talks about. I > > usually > > > get to F or E, Eb if it's a good day. This has made a staggering > > difference > > > in my sound and mobility in the trigger and pedal ranges. > > > > > > Most of my work is on tenor, so I can't even devote a majority of my > > > practice time to bass trombone, much less bass trombone long tones, but if > > I > > > do my altered version of the Teele warm up, some Faulise style > > flexibilities > > > through the valve range, and a Blazevich tuba etude or a Pederson etude or > > > the like, EVERYDAY, my bass playing seems to get better (of course, it has > > > room to move that way). That takes me about 30 minutes on bass. > > > > > > Jeff Albert > > > > > > www.jeffalbert.com > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Trombones and related issues forum. > > > [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Gabriel Langfur > > > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 1:37 PM > > > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > > > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds > > > > > > This is all great stuff from Doug. > > > > > > --- Douglas Rowe wrote: > > > > Personally, while I could see the Phil Teele excercises > > > > being of great > > > > value in developing low register, I don't have enough > > > > time to play each > > > > days group of excercises in addition to practicing the > > > > music I need to > > > > practice AND working a full time job. I have his book, > > > > but I probably > > > > won't end up playing from it much unless I quit (or lose) > > > > my day job. > > > > > > Doug, and John...you might be surprised at how doing even a > > > small amount of the Phil Teele-style long tones can have a > > > profound effect. There's something about playing the same > > > note for a longer time than you ever thought reasonable... > > > > > > The key is paying attention to the form - starting with > > > your mouth in the formation of the letter M, keeping the > > > mouthpiece setting from your middle register, and just > > > going for it, not worrying too much about how it sounds at > > > first. Even just doing the warmup page every day can start > > > to change things for the better, as long as you stick with > > > it all the way down to the pedal C, regardless of how it > > > sounds - getting out even a weak, thin pedal C with your > > > middle register embouchure makes everything work better - > > > at least for me. > > > > > > Anyway, like I said, Doug's advice is fantastic, and if > > > you're paying attention and doing those types of things > > > diligently, you'll see improvement. Like I also said, > > > however, nothing has ever had more of an effect for me than > > > the long tones. > > > > > > ===== > > > Gabe Langfur > > > Boston, MA > > > > This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 20:15:08 -0800 From: Price Taylor Subject: Re: from Suter - revenge But did he play an in-line bass trombone? Mike, I appreciated the thread and had a LOL. Remember there are many different intelligences...some people think there's only one -- THEIR'S! Price -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Raymond Horton Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 6:16 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] from Suter - revenge Last November I talked with seven different Dell tech reps in India over a period of a few weeks. All but one spoke excellent, Kings' English, and were excellent help. When I was stuck making small talk with one for several minutes while we waited for his superior to make a decision, the rep told me how much he cherished working for Dell. I was truly sorry, later, to hear that Dell terminated their contract. RH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Keen" To: Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 8:09 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] from Suter - revenge In a message dated 2/9/2004 4:42:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, daniel_pliskin@HOTMAIL.COM writes: Which reminds me‰¥Ïthe last time I had problems with my DSL, the tech support guy I wound up talking with was a jazz bass trombonist in Colorado. That's interesting. I just got finished last night trying to get my DSL to work with help from a SBC technician. His accent/English was so poor I couldn't understand him worth a darn, so I asked for a supervisor to explain it better. He'd have none of this so he felt it necessary to explain it again.......... After the same run around I couldn't resist so I asked his name and where he was calling from. He stated that information was not available for security reasons. ?? That 60 Minutes episode about customer service being routed to India came to mind........... Phil Keen ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 8 Feb 2004 to 9 Feb 2004 (#2004-41) **************************************************************