Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 7 Feb 2004 to 8 Feb 2004 (#2004-40) Date: Monday, February 9, 2004 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 19 messages totalling 1088 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds (11) 2. Accord Cases 3. Shires Display at TMEA 4. Hary Janos Question (3) 5. Teele style was RE: [TBN-L] Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds (2) 6. FWD: Re: [TBN-L] Hary Janos Question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 08:55:45 -0500 From: John Burton Subject: Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds I need a few opinions on mouthpieces and who better than THIS group to = ask for an opinion???=20 I've been playing on a turned-down Schilke 59 (Silver) for about 18 = months now. I keep the horn to my face at least 6 days a week, even if it's a = 15 minute warm-up three or four times during the day (Michael Davis' = Hip-Bone in use here). I've found my range has increased until I can produce a = pedal "F" (either with the first trigger or not) on demand. The problem is, = that pedal "F" is a bit "breathy"; solid, but doesn't have the explosive = power some of the higher sounding pedal notes. I don't want to turn in to a "slide tuba", but I DO have a need from = time to time for that powerful pedal "F", or perhaps even a bit lower. =20 So. (Here comes the request for opinions). Would a move to say a Bach = 1G (either standard or megatone, silver or gold) or a Schilke 60 (again = silver or gold) or even a Schilke 61 help me here? =20 What is a decent practice regiment for a Bass trombone that will help me = get those low notes with the explosive power of say a pedal Bb or A? =20 Input from all invited! Thank you! --=3D=3Djb=3D=3D-- ~=3D~=3D~=3D~=3D~=3D~=3D~=3D~=3D~=3D~=3D~=3D~=3D~=3D~=3D~=3D~=3D~=3D~=3D~= =3D~=3D~=3D~=3D john burton Bach 50B3 Bass Trombone, Charleston NeoPhonic Orchestra South Charleston, West Virginia ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 08:16:15 -0600 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds Check out the Phil Teele Embouchure Studies. I got my book from Hickeys, but I am sure it is available in other places as well. It is pretty intense, and I have only been doing a greatly watered down version of it, but I have seen vast improvement in my low chops. Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of John Burton Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 7:56 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds I need a few opinions on mouthpieces and who better than THIS group to ask for an opinion??? I've been playing on a turned-down Schilke 59 (Silver) for about 18 months now. I keep the horn to my face at least 6 days a week, even if it's a 15 minute warm-up three or four times during the day (Michael Davis' Hip-Bone in use here). I've found my range has increased until I can produce a pedal "F" (either with the first trigger or not) on demand. The problem is, that pedal "F" is a bit "breathy"; solid, but doesn't have the explosive power some of the higher sounding pedal notes. I don't want to turn in to a "slide tuba", but I DO have a need from time to time for that powerful pedal "F", or perhaps even a bit lower. So. (Here comes the request for opinions). Would a move to say a Bach 1G (either standard or megatone, silver or gold) or a Schilke 60 (again silver or gold) or even a Schilke 61 help me here? What is a decent practice regiment for a Bass trombone that will help me get those low notes with the explosive power of say a pedal Bb or A? Input from all invited! Thank you! --==jb==-- ~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~= john burton Bach 50B3 Bass Trombone, Charleston NeoPhonic Orchestra South Charleston, West Virginia ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 08:46:56 -0600 From: Jay Heltzer Subject: Re: Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds It is so easy to say, and so wonderful to hear someone say "You should try THIS mouthpiece! It will give you what you are looking for 24 hours a day, 8 days a week, for the rest of your children's lives, GUARANTEED!!!" It just doesn't work that way. True, new equipment can change playing qualities, sometimes for the better, but despite the help the American economy needs, buying a new piece might not do it. I second Jeff's recommendation of the Phil Teele book, but like my above statement about equipment, the same idea applies. Its not guaranteed. You will get out of it what you put into it. With continued practice, the improvements will come. You are already seeing it now. I was there as well. Suddenly the pedal Fs were there...then the pedal Es, E flats, and so on. Keep working hard! Your suggested mouthpieces will help in achieving the pedal F, but you may lose something elsewhere in the exchange. If you are curious about these models, try them, and see all around what the differences are. Also, make sure you have a separate set of ears in the room. What sounds one way to you on your side of the bell, is very different to everyone else's side of the bell. Good luck Jay Heltzer ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 08:08:25 -0700 From: Earl Needham Subject: Re: Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds At 06:55 AM 2/8/2004, John Burton wrote: > >I don't want to turn in to a "slide tuba", but I DO have a need from time to >time for that powerful pedal "F", or perhaps even a bit lower. > >So. (Here comes the request for opinions). Would a move to say a Bach 1G >(either standard or megatone, silver or gold) or a Schilke 60 (again silver >or gold) or even a Schilke 61 help me here? I must not be like everyone else -- I find that a larger mouthpiece tends to take power away from my pedal range and concentrate it instead into my "money notes", i.e. the notes from low F down to Pedal B-flat. By far, my best results come from playing a LOT in the pedal range with whatever I'm using this year (or decade! ), whether in the practice room or in public. BTW, when did I have the strongest my pedal range ever? Back in high school on my old pea shooter. Weird, huh? Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB, Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk KD5XB-2>APW251,PCSAT-1%:=3425.83N/10313.55W-PHG7150/WinAPRS 2.5.1 -EARL_CLOVIS -251-<630> SETI@Home: 11349WU/7.36yrs ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 10:33:38 -0500 From: Bruce Guttman Subject: Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds Message text written by John Burton >The problem is, that pedal "F" is a bit "breathy"; solid, but doesn't have the explosive power some of the higher sounding pedal notes.< I went through a period where I was looking to do something for my lower register too. At that time, the big fad was "Tone Intensifiers" and heavy wall mouthpieces. Being a bit of a tightwad, and having a well-stocked Maintenance department at my disposal, I got a bunch of steel bearing caps. These are donut-shaped pieces of steel with a setscrew. I found one that fit the shank of my mouthpiece and tried it. It made my low register more powerful, but didn't seem to do anything for or to my upper register. I happily continued using this cap for a while, until I started playing another horn that wouldn't let me use the collar. Surprise! My low register was still good. I don't know if the "tone intensifier" effect was in my head or if it trained me to do something that helped. Regardless, I suggest you try it. If it works, great. If it makes you think it works, it probably is just as good. If you are determined to prove it doesn't work, it won't. Btw, I also found that pedals are easier to play on small bore instruments. I can hit double pedal Eb on my alto, while I can't play single pedal Bb on my 2-trigger bass. Just a suggestion. Bruce Guttman Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 09:52:31 -0600 From: Harold Smith Subject: Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds I tend to do better -- all the way around -- on a larger mouthpiece. = When I started playing again, I started with a 5GS (in lieu of a 6 1/2 = AL). As time has progressed I have moved from the 5 to a 4G. About the = same time that I started playing tenor again, I picked up a used Bach 50 = bass. I tried using the Yeo signature mouthpiece that came with it. It = was huge. Granted I could bust out pedals like they were going out of = style, but everything else went south. So I experimented a bit and = found a 1 1/2 G gives me exactly what I need. My high end gets a little = airy, but I think that that is my "fault". I just need to work on it. Short story version -- IMHO part of the equation is fitting how you = are physically , with whatever is available to make the match. = Beyond that, it is just the old "W" word -- work. I agree with the bulk of what has already been said in this = thread.....this is my variation on the theme. Harold Smith Austin, TX ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 11:43:03 -0600 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds It made my low register more powerful, but didn't seem to do anything for or to my upper register. I happily continued using this cap for a while, until I started playing another horn that wouldn't let me use the collar. Surprise! My low register was still good. I don't know if the "tone intensifier" effect was in my head or if it trained me to do something that helped. ========================================= I think gear can train us. It is possible that one could go to a really big piece, sort out some super low range issues, then return to a more reasonable all a round size piece, and keep much of the extreme low range improvement. The bigger piece just makes it easier to get going. Once you teach yourself how to do it, you can do it on anything (within reason). ============================================= Btw, I also found that pedals are easier to play on small bore instruments. I can hit double pedal Eb on my alto, while I can't play single pedal Bb on my 2-trigger bass. ================================================= On a small horn, it is much easier to make a drastic shift to make the pedals pop. On my 6H/11C I can make a shift that essentially removes my lower lip from the mouthpiece, and really pop loud pedal tones, but I can't play those same pedals with a setting anywhere near the way I play rest of the horn. On my bass I am working up to a point where I can play to pedal F with an embouchure that is very similar to what I use on the rest of the horn, thus they become usable notes in a musical situation, not a gimmick that I have to drastically reset to play. Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 10:51:07 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Accord Cases I'm VERY suspicious of the way the bell section sits on top of the slide in that case. As Peter suggests, I'm making an assumption about it...but as far as I'm concerned, my sense of well-being about a case is nearly as important as the actual protection it offers. I'd be more inclined to buy one of the newer cases from Walt Johnson, that are a little bit bigger and have wheels. ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 12:56:16 -0600 From: Douglas Rowe Subject: Re: Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds John, I'm working on similar things right now in my playing--I have pedal notes, they sound good, but I'm not able to "pop" them in the way that I want to. As Jeff Albert said, I can pop them with a drastic embouchure shift, but I need (should) be able to play them with out doing anything crazy on my chops. A few things from my daily routine that I'm doing to work on this: 1. I start my daily routine by doing long tones through my entire range, especially focusing on the pedals (by focusing I mean longer tones, repeated notes if I'm not happy with the quality of sound). Generally I do these between mp and mf, with breath attacks. I generally play down to a double pedal Bb. 2. I use selected parts of the Paul Faulise Daily Routine book, focusing on lip slurs between the mid range and the pedals, as well as lipslurs between pedal and trigger notes--these routines "allow" for me to play down to a pedal C or double pedal Bb, working on chop response in the low ranges. 3. I play 3 octave articulated scales. Dynamic range varies from day to day. 4. Starting on Bb at the bottom of the staff, I single tongue 16th notes (tempo of quarternote = 80) with a very hard articulation. I move down chromatically and do this on each note down to double pedal Bb (on some of the pedal notes I do have to slow down the tempo some, but I try to keep the articulation hard and even). 5. I play Rochut etudes down two octaves, trying to draw out each phrase from beginning to end. By doing this I train my body to do two primary things: buzz efficiently in the pedal range and respond as soon as the air starts moving--the ideal result of this is the efficient use of air in the low range and the ability to articulate hard on pedal notes. Once I'm playing efficiently in that range, things like popping notes shouldn't be a problem. Although equipment is important, I agree that if you're happy with your current mouthpiece in all the rest of your ranges, it wouldn't make sense to change equipment just for a register that you probably don't tons of time in everyday. Personally, while I could see the Phil Teele excercises being of great value in developing low register, I don't have enough time to play each days group of excercises in addition to practicing the music I need to practice AND working a full time job. I have his book, but I probably won't end up playing from it much unless I quit (or lose) my day job. Another comment--many people see a strong relationship between their high chops and their low chops--how do the high chops work? If you struggle up there, working on the high in addition to the low may help in your development of strongly articulated pedals. However, there is no substitute for actually practicing the exact thing that you're trying to develop. Doug John Burton wrote: > I need a few opinions on mouthpieces and who better than THIS group to ask > for an opinion??? > > I've been playing on a turned-down Schilke 59 (Silver) for about 18 months > now. I keep the horn to my face at least 6 days a week, even if it's a 15 > minute warm-up three or four times during the day (Michael Davis' Hip-Bone > in use here). I've found my range has increased until I can produce a pedal > "F" (either with the first trigger or not) on demand. The problem is, that > pedal "F" is a bit "breathy"; solid, but doesn't have the explosive power > some of the higher sounding pedal notes. > > I don't want to turn in to a "slide tuba", but I DO have a need from time to > time for that powerful pedal "F", or perhaps even a bit lower. > > So. (Here comes the request for opinions). Would a move to say a Bach 1G > (either standard or megatone, silver or gold) or a Schilke 60 (again silver > or gold) or even a Schilke 61 help me here? > > What is a decent practice regiment for a Bass trombone that will help me get > those low notes with the explosive power of say a pedal Bb or A? > > Input from all invited! > > Thank you! > > --==jb==-- > > ~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~= > > john burton > Bach 50B3 > Bass Trombone, Charleston NeoPhonic Orchestra > South Charleston, West Virginia -- ______________________________________________ Doug and Jennifer Rowe jndrowe@earthlink.net **************************************** "Get your facts first, then you can distort them as much as you please." -Mark Twain ***************************************** http://www.stolaf.edu/people/rowed/ _________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 11:02:01 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Shires Display at TMEA --- Matt & Abby Erickson wrote: > To our surprise, the Big Bass exceeded our expectations, > both in sound and > how it blows. I know there are some people who will > flame a me for saying > this, but the larger bored bass trombone played very well > in many different > situations. I was very skeptical of the big bass, but I tried one at the Shires shop and was surprised at how well it blew. I still wouldn't choose it as my everyday horn, but it's better and much less tubby than one might think. > If you > look at Matt > Guilford's website, I believe he is playing a "BoneZilla" > at Steve's factory > and with the NSO and Iraqi trombones > I was there when Matt was trying instruments. He blew on the Bonezilla and liked it, but it wasn't what he chose ultimately. I don't know if I'm supposed to go into detail on this, but my wife always says I'm a blabbermouth so here goes. Matt chose a .562-.578 lightweight yellow brass slide, a 9 1/2" yellow brass bell (2YHWT7 if anyone cares), and the rotary valve section from a Bonezilla. I think the bore size is something like .620 in that valves. This combination was very open, but maintained the compact core and basic dark quality of sound Matt was after (the Kennedy Center is very dry and overemphasizes high harmonics, so he needs something a little darker sounding than he might otherwise choose) better than the Bonezilla as a whole. Steve may have sent him some other stuff to try later, but that was the combination Matt chose that day. ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 14:13:18 -0500 From: John Burton Subject: Re: Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds All... Doug. Thanks for the input! When I made the switch from a Bach 1 1/2G to the Schilke 59 I found my low end came alive. I figgered, perhaps incorrectly, that it was due to the larger cup size and depth. But as has been mentioned, the Schilke required a bit of "payback".. I had to nearly re-build my embouchure, GADS I got tired after the switch. In fact, after several hours time I had to switch back to the 1 1/2G to "rest". Now, I'm back to where I can do a couple hours dixieland, three hours jazz band and finish up with a couple more hours orchestra rehearsals in a day. Thank goodness it's not EVERY day! So I'm guessing, if I interpret your comments correctly, continued long tone practice will bring the low end to me, if it's even possible. This may sound silly, but "double pedal Bb"? If I could show my stripe, you talking about the second lowest note on the piano? YIKES! I'm impressed. Is that a useable note? Bruce, is that akin to the double Eb you mentioned on your Alto? Yikes! My practice (and rehearsals with both orchestral and jazz bands) have helped my low chops enough where I can, on demand, produce that "breathy" pedal F (an octave below the F at the bottom of the staff), and pedals from there UP without shifting my embouchure much more than simply opening my mouth to let out all that air . Jeff, I found the Phil Teele books over at Steve Ferguson's place. Doesn't cost as much as a gold-plated Bach 1G ... Jay, I'm not sure about spinning bolts onto my mouthpiece, but hey, it might help. Gotta try. To the others, thank you for input. It ain't easy trying to sound like George Roberts, is it? --==jb==-- ~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~= john burton Bach 50B3 Bass Trombone, Charleston NeoPhonic Orchestra South Charleston, West Virginia ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 11:20:30 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds --- Jeff Albert wrote: > Check out the Phil Teele Embouchure Studies. I'll second that. Nothing has ever improved my low register more than doing these exercises. I've tried lots of mouthpieces in the quest to have a powerful low register but keep the focused sound that's in my head (my primary teacher, Ray Premru, played a bored-out 2G and made a big, beautiful, warm, focused sound), and now that I've spent a couple of years playing lots of long tones in this manner, it seems every mouthpiece I pick up has a good low register...go figure. Ultimately it's not the mouthpiece, it's you. The right mouthpiece can certainly help though! > So. (Here comes the request for opinions). Would a move > to say a Bach 1G > (either standard or megatone, silver or gold) or a > Schilke 60 (again silver > or gold) or even a Schilke 61 help me here? I wouldn't recommend any of those. Personal preference, mostly...but I think they are too much bigger than the 59 for the change you seem to be after. The best thing I've found...for me, of course...in the neighborhood of the 59 is the Jeff Reynolds L. It's a little bigger overall, and particularly in the inner diameter of the rim, but it's at least as efficient. I love the wider rim, but not everybody does. I've now moved to the Ferguson LS, which is similar but a little bit bigger still than the Reynolds. Also worth a try - it tends toward a little bit bigger sound in the low register. Both of these are available from Steve Ferguson, who had them copied from Larry Minick's original work. His website is www.steveferguson.net There are lots of good mouthpieces available these days. The Greg Black 1 1/4G is probably a very similar size to the 59, and I think there's a Scott Laskey mouthpiece around that size too. Doug Elliott has a whole line of interchangeable parts in a 3-piece system, and he certainly knows what he's doing. I understand you can order a custom 59D from Schilke, with a deeper cup - who knows? That might be just the ticket for you. The long tones will have more effect than any mouthpiece though... ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 11:36:51 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds This is all great stuff from Doug. --- Douglas Rowe wrote: > Personally, while I could see the Phil Teele excercises > being of great > value in developing low register, I don't have enough > time to play each > days group of excercises in addition to practicing the > music I need to > practice AND working a full time job. I have his book, > but I probably > won't end up playing from it much unless I quit (or lose) > my day job. Doug, and John...you might be surprised at how doing even a small amount of the Phil Teele-style long tones can have a profound effect. There's something about playing the same note for a longer time than you ever thought reasonable... The key is paying attention to the form - starting with your mouth in the formation of the letter M, keeping the mouthpiece setting from your middle register, and just going for it, not worrying too much about how it sounds at first. Even just doing the warmup page every day can start to change things for the better, as long as you stick with it all the way down to the pedal C, regardless of how it sounds - getting out even a weak, thin pedal C with your middle register embouchure makes everything work better - at least for me. Anyway, like I said, Doug's advice is fantastic, and if you're paying attention and doing those types of things diligently, you'll see improvement. Like I also said, however, nothing has ever had more of an effect for me than the long tones. ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 11:47:38 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Hary Janos Question Since none of the tenor players seem to be answering this, I'll throw in a couple of cents. --- Frank Darmiento wrote: > The lick in question is in the sixth movement starting at > rehearsal number 7. In the third and fifth bars after > number 7 the notes are (above middle C) four > sixteenths--Ab-Bb-C-Bb to an Ab (eighth note). The tempo > is about 120-126 for a quarter note. The bass trombone has to play this same figure down an octave. Ray Premru always played it all in third position using the valve for the B-flat and no tongue. I think when I played the piece a few years ago I decided to legato double-tongue it all on the open horn, in part because I was going to have to double-tongue again later in the passage, when it's the lower octave Cb-Db-Eb-Db-Cb, which came out best for me all in the same partial, starting in 7th position. I don't know what the tenor players were doing, but there's an awful lot of noise going on at that point, so the choice you make doesn't necessarily have to be the cleanest, most pristine, flossed-every-tooth way of playing the passage. It also doesn't have to be blow-the-walls-down loud. I think pretty much the whole orchestra is playing the same thing. ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 16:15:38 -0600 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Teele style was RE: [TBN-L] Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds As Gabe says, just doing part of the Teele exercises has helped me. I don't even really do the warm up. I have been playing 10 repeated long tones (one breath's worth each) starting on pedal Bb and moving down chromatically as far as I can go and keep the mmm embouchure that he talks about. I usually get to F or E, Eb if it's a good day. This has made a staggering difference in my sound and mobility in the trigger and pedal ranges. Most of my work is on tenor, so I can't even devote a majority of my practice time to bass trombone, much less bass trombone long tones, but if I do my altered version of the Teele warm up, some Faulise style flexibilities through the valve range, and a Blazevich tuba etude or a Pederson etude or the like, EVERYDAY, my bass playing seems to get better (of course, it has room to move that way). That takes me about 30 minutes on bass. Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Gabriel Langfur Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 1:37 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds This is all great stuff from Doug. --- Douglas Rowe wrote: > Personally, while I could see the Phil Teele excercises > being of great > value in developing low register, I don't have enough > time to play each > days group of excercises in addition to practicing the > music I need to > practice AND working a full time job. I have his book, > but I probably > won't end up playing from it much unless I quit (or lose) > my day job. Doug, and John...you might be surprised at how doing even a small amount of the Phil Teele-style long tones can have a profound effect. There's something about playing the same note for a longer time than you ever thought reasonable... The key is paying attention to the form - starting with your mouth in the formation of the letter M, keeping the mouthpiece setting from your middle register, and just going for it, not worrying too much about how it sounds at first. Even just doing the warmup page every day can start to change things for the better, as long as you stick with it all the way down to the pedal C, regardless of how it sounds - getting out even a weak, thin pedal C with your middle register embouchure makes everything work better - at least for me. Anyway, like I said, Doug's advice is fantastic, and if you're paying attention and doing those types of things diligently, you'll see improvement. Like I also said, however, nothing has ever had more of an effect for me than the long tones. ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 20:40:11 -0500 From: Peter Collins & Sara Wilbur Subject: Re: Hary Janos Question Another thing... In my part the Bb and C are small notes above the bass clef (the bass trombone part has this) suggesting an optional lick. The big notes are a dotted eighth Ab and a sixteenth Bb, the same thing two bars later. However, the sixteenths two bars after that starting on the Cb are all large sixteenth notes. Just some further insight or further muddying the waters. Peter Collins Bass Trombone Hamilton Philharmonic Orchestra Gabriel Langfur wrote: > > Since none of the tenor players seem to be answering this, > I'll throw in a couple of cents. > > --- Frank Darmiento wrote: > > The lick in question is in the sixth movement starting at > > rehearsal number 7. In the third and fifth bars after > > number 7 the notes are (above middle C) four > > sixteenths--Ab-Bb-C-Bb to an Ab (eighth note). The tempo > > is about 120-126 for a quarter note. > > The bass trombone has to play this same figure down an > octave. Ray Premru always played it all in third position > using the valve for the B-flat and no tongue. > > I think when I played the piece a few years ago I decided > to legato double-tongue it all on the open horn, in part > because I was going to have to double-tongue again later in > the passage, when it's the lower octave Cb-Db-Eb-Db-Cb, > which came out best for me all in the same partial, > starting in 7th position. > > I don't know what the tenor players were doing, but there's > an awful lot of noise going on at that point, so the choice > you make doesn't necessarily have to be the cleanest, most > pristine, flossed-every-tooth way of playing the passage. > It also doesn't have to be blow-the-walls-down loud. I > think pretty much the whole orchestra is playing the same thing. > > ===== > Gabe Langfur > Boston, MA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 21:25:39 -0500 From: Roger Hecht Subject: Re: Hary Janos Question >I'll be playing the first trombone part on the Kodaly "Hary Janos Suite" >in a few weeks. The part has one of the most difficult licks I've run >across in orchestral literature and I'm interested in some views on >attacking it. > >The lick in question is in the sixth movement starting at rehearsal number >7. In the third and fifth bars after number 7 the notes are (above middle >C) four sixteenths--Ab-Bb-C-Bb to an Ab (eighth note). The tempo is about >120-126 for a quarter note. > >I've tried a variety of strategies to play it. My current option is to >play all five notes in 3rd position and double-tongue the sixteenths. The >other approaches I've tried (with less success) are: > >1. Play all five notes in 3rd position and lip-slup them all. This works >great for me up to a tempo of about MM=90. Faster than that and I can't >control the notes. Yeah, I know, practice more, but that will take about >six months at my present rate of progress. > >2. Play the first & last Ab in 3rd position and the C & Bb in 1st and >double-tongue the notes. > >3. Play the Ab in 3rd, Bb in 5th, C in 6th (i.e., 3-5-6-5-3 for the entire >lick) and slur the notes "against the grain." (Ends up sounding like some >sort of dixieland lick when I do it.) > >4. Play the Ab with the trigger in flat 2nd, Bb in 1st open & C in 1st >with the trigger, using the trigger to articulate the notes. Of the choices you've given, I go with 2. A variation on that is to play the C in third. That has a slight psychological advantage of making the highest note seem out there rather than up there, with the slide acting as kind of a sword or trigger. Both work for me, but be sure to relax, set yourself, and use a lot of air support. 1 and 3 represent too many lip gymnastics for comfort. I never use the valve up there (4). It complicates things with the air stream. Roger Hecht ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 21:19:45 -0700 From: Frank Darmiento Subject: FWD: Re: [TBN-L] Hary Janos Question Thanks for all the suggestions. I did receive a few off-list responses that were also very helpful. After revisiting the part with the responses in hand the suggestion (offered by several people) to play the Ab in 3rd position and Bb and C in first and double-tongueing the lick. Not surprisingly, this is where I started originally, but I wasn't relaxed enough at first to make it work. After trying the other variations and a practice technique offered by Paul Kemp I'm starting to get fairly consistent with that approach. And yes, my part also has the Bb-C sixteenths as optional, but I think the part definitely sounds better including the optional notes--as long as I can play it. In any event, I'm enjoying the piece. This is the first time I've played it and I love the writing. -- Frank T. Darmiento Scottsdale, Arizona frank@darmiento.com www.SackbutMusic.com --------------------------- Frank Darmiento's new jazz CD "Sudden Impact" is now available from Summit Records at: http://www.summitrecords.com/product.tmpl?SKU=339 -- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 00:38:52 -0500 From: "Paul D. Kemp Jr." Subject: Re: Teele style was RE: [TBN-L] Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds Dear Jeff and list: I really don't think that this whole thing has to do with big, dark bass trombone sounds at all. It has EVERYTHING to do with just being able to REPEATABLY being able to sound CHARACTERISTIC on the horn, PERIOD, regardless of whether you play tenor or bass. The Teele long tone studies were literally the turning point in my entire trombone playing life, along with some very specific key pieces of information concerning respiration. I have said, and still believe, that it is possible to do ANY exercise wrong, and that includes long tones, mouthpiece buzzing, ANYTHING. The part about the Teele studies that is absolutely crucial is CORRECT FORM. The exercises are simple enough that you can concentrate enough on form to the point that it gets to be very natural and automatic, and unless you have that, you really don't have much. Being able to do long tones very well is literally THE KEY to being able play everything else well also. Long tones force you to really concentrate on a very smooth, unimpeded airstream, and also on the idea that it's the intercostal muscles that do the largest part of the work when we play. If you're trying to develop a sound that will get past the oboe player in a decent sized orchestra, this is how you do it. I don't think that it is necessary for tenor trombone players to do long tones quite to the extent that our bass trombone and tuba playing colleagues must. The plain, simple fact that everyone MUST realize is that it's all about developing the strength and efficiency of the embouchure to the point that you can literally do anything on the horn. Larger mouthpieces require more strength to play than the smaller ones do. Simple fact of life. I can share this from personal experience: being able to sound great in the lower part of the middle register (middle F down to 7th position B natural) and the lower register (2nd line Bb on down into the valve and pedal registers for the F-attachment players) is VITAL to sounding great on the upper half of the middle register (middle F up to F above middle Bb) and the upper register (F# and above). It really does take more strength to be able to control the airstream in the lower register where you are playing through a bigger aperture than it does in the upper register. Like Phil Teele says, as you are going into the upper register, the embouchure literally clamps down on the airstream. All of this is done in a very free, easy, relaxed sort of way---no strain. Incidentally, I was talking to someone this past week about what made playing Mahler difficult, as we had the immense pleasure of performing the 9th symphony this past week. In my opinion, it has to do with the intense breathing demands. I mentioned this to the tuba player, and he said something quite profound: "EVERYTHING I PLAY ON THE TUBA IS ABOUT BREATHING." There is definitely a lesson there for all of us. I'd like to throw something else out there too, if I may. We haven't really discussed equipment and how it relates to this whole mess, but I do have an opinion, and this is certainly not intended to be a slam against anyone, but simply an observation that I've made. Here goes: The trend over the past 20+ years has been to go towards larger and larger equipment---mouthpieces, leadpipes, no leadpipes, more open valves (Thayers), dual bore slides, larger and larger horns, etc, etc, etc. I am absolutely convinced that the equipment manufacturers are having a field day with all of us. My observations are that because of this trend, we must actually work harder than our predecessors did in order to achieve the same results. Since I am primarily an orchestral player, I am constantly faced with this dilemma, and a dilemma it truly is. The question that I am constantly faced with is this: JUST HOW LOUD DO WE REALLY HAVE TO PLAY ANYWAY? It takes more strength and energy to play at the extremely heightened decibel levels. We all tend to listen to our stereos at heightened decibel levels, and I think this has an awful lot to do with this dilemma. For example, if you're listening to the Chicago Symphony of the 70's play Tchaikovsky, and when you hear that absolutely glorious brass sound, (and yes, I have heard them play live, and it is truly awe-inspiring, to say the least) it really sounds fantastic when you crank it, and what's even more amazing is if you have the speakers that can handle it, the sound never distorts. What is really incredible (to my way of thinking, anyway) about that era is that all of those brass players were using very reasonably sized equipment, and they all played with a team concept with a unified brass section sound that really projected to the audience. And, it was all about EASE OF PLAYING. In other words, it was LITERALLY no more difficult than deep breathing. I guess what I'm really trying to say is this: if you're going to play the larger equipment, then be prepared to have to do more work, and there does come a point where there truly is this thing of diminishing returns---less product for all of that effort you're expending. Incidentally, since we have been talking some about Phil Teele, it might surprise all of you to know that unless he has made an equipment change, he plays on a Yamaha bass trombone with rotors, and he also uses something in the neighborhood of the Schilke 59 mouthpiece. Not large equipment, certainly by today's standards, and he is one of the busiest studio musicians in LA and he possesses an absolutely terrific sound. I think that it would be safe to say that he has definitely worked more on HIMSELF than he has on his gear, as this was the philosophy of the musicians of yesteryear. Food for thought. Paul Kemp Chattanooga Symphony www.trbnplyr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Albert" To: Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 5:15 PM Subject: [TBN-L] Teele style was RE: [TBN-L] Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds > As Gabe says, just doing part of the Teele exercises has helped me. I don't > even really do the warm up. I have been playing 10 repeated long tones (one > breath's worth each) starting on pedal Bb and moving down chromatically as > far as I can go and keep the mmm embouchure that he talks about. I usually > get to F or E, Eb if it's a good day. This has made a staggering difference > in my sound and mobility in the trigger and pedal ranges. > > Most of my work is on tenor, so I can't even devote a majority of my > practice time to bass trombone, much less bass trombone long tones, but if I > do my altered version of the Teele warm up, some Faulise style flexibilities > through the valve range, and a Blazevich tuba etude or a Pederson etude or > the like, EVERYDAY, my bass playing seems to get better (of course, it has > room to move that way). That takes me about 30 minutes on bass. > > Jeff Albert > > www.jeffalbert.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. > [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Gabriel Langfur > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 1:37 PM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Of Big and Dark Bass Trombone sounds > > This is all great stuff from Doug. > > --- Douglas Rowe wrote: > > Personally, while I could see the Phil Teele excercises > > being of great > > value in developing low register, I don't have enough > > time to play each > > days group of excercises in addition to practicing the > > music I need to > > practice AND working a full time job. I have his book, > > but I probably > > won't end up playing from it much unless I quit (or lose) > > my day job. > > Doug, and John...you might be surprised at how doing even a > small amount of the Phil Teele-style long tones can have a > profound effect. There's something about playing the same > note for a longer time than you ever thought reasonable... > > The key is paying attention to the form - starting with > your mouth in the formation of the letter M, keeping the > mouthpiece setting from your middle register, and just > going for it, not worrying too much about how it sounds at > first. Even just doing the warmup page every day can start > to change things for the better, as long as you stick with > it all the way down to the pedal C, regardless of how it > sounds - getting out even a weak, thin pedal C with your > middle register embouchure makes everything work better - > at least for me. > > Anyway, like I said, Doug's advice is fantastic, and if > you're paying attention and doing those types of things > diligently, you'll see improvement. Like I also said, > however, nothing has ever had more of an effect for me than > the long tones. > > ===== > Gabe Langfur > Boston, MA ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 7 Feb 2004 to 8 Feb 2004 (#2004-40) **************************************************************