Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 4 Feb 2004 to 5 Feb 2004 (#2004-37) Date: Friday, February 6, 2004 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 14 messages totalling 990 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Big boring rant (2) 2. Looking for .547 bore leadpipe... 3. large bore rant (2) 4. Hary Janos Question 5. Jeff Adams having trouble re-subscribing 6. For Sale: D slides for Bach 50B2 Traditional Tight Wrap 7. Shires & Bach Mouthpieces (3) 8. Reunion Blues Leather bag for sale 9. Anyone have a used Bach 12 or 16 slide for sale? 10. Mouthpieces for Sale ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 23:06:16 -0800 From: jimandcat@JUNO.COM Subject: Re: Big boring rant Okay, everything everyone has said is right. Now I will chime in and tick you all off again. A few years ago (not now, I guess I know better now), I got a call to do a dance job with a band I had worked with before. The leader (once a semi-famous R&R singer and a pretty good ww player) had hired me many times in the past to play the bottom trombone part in his band (a mixture of bass and tenor parts) on my full fledged gigantic bass trombone. So I showed up with my bass trombone to find I was playing lead (!). Stuff like IGSMOY, Song of India, Marie, and a bunch of similar stuff. Nobody else around to help out so I go ahead and do it (what is the singular of a herd of euphoniums?). To my surprise the band leader liked it, he kept hiring me. I finally got myself fired when I couldn't fake the bridge to "As Time Goes By" in 2 sharps (a bass trombonist faking dance tunes?, give me a break--I waved him off and got a dirty look). The moral of the story: As long as you can play the music the leader wants, better than the competition, they don't care what you are playing on. Corollary: when you can't fake the tune the leader calls for, you don't get called next time, no matter how well you played before on whatever axe you had in your paws. Go ahead, flame me. It's a little cold here. ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 04:28:13 EST From: JFBermann@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Looking for .547 bore leadpipe... Hi John, The Edwards brass #2 leadpipes can be bought directly from Edwards for $50 plus shipping. You really can't beat that. Jim Bermann ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 06:45:49 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Big boring rant --- jimandcat@JUNO.COM wrote: > Go ahead, flame me. It's a little cold here. I'm gonna flame you, but not about the trombone...cold there!!! Aren't you in San Diego??? Cold???!!! What are you, kidding??? I'm paying a dollar and a half a gallon for heating oil in my eighty-year-old house with bad insulation and you're cold??? SHUT UP!!! [Smiles and takes a sip of his beer...uh, it's 9AM...coffee] Cheers & Grins, Gabe in Boston, where we're having a heat wave. I think it's about 20 degrees today. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 09:55:20 -0500 From: sabutin Subject: Re: large bore rant >Hi Sam, > >Let's have a discussion. Your comments are on point, but I've got a >couple of exceptions that I'd like to raise. I've inserted them in >your text below. Thanks for talking. Best, Bob > >>From: sabutin >>Reply-To: sabutin >>To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU >>Subject: Re: [TBN-L] large bore rant >>Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:23:26 -0500 >> >> About horn sizes, parts, sections, and handing parts around... >> >> I MUCH prefer hearing small horns on top, medium horns in the >>middle, and larger horns on the bottom. >> >> And they blend BETTER if everyone is playing in a range that is >>fairly comfortable for their equipment. > >If we're talking about concert bands, brass bands or the like, I >would tend to agree. If we're talking about the usual pick-up >freelance section I don't agree. Mixed horns leave an awful lot to >chance...more about this later. ============ Depends on the players... >> >> Regarding passing parts around... >> >> If you really want the band to sound good...leave the parts where >>they belong as much as possible and let everyone learn one discrete >>blend. >> >> Among the great lead players who did it this way as much as is >>humanly possible with whom I have worked are Urbie Green, Wayne >>Andre, Britt Woodman, Dave Steinmeyer, Brent Wallarab and Jim Knepper. > >Absolutely!!! >> >>Also every B'way show, high level recording situation and >>concert/performance big band. >> >>And let's not forget those symphony orchestras. > >Absolutely in spades. >> >> Occasionally a band is together long enough so that individuals >>who do certain things very well will play a given part no matter on >>what chair they sit...Duke's bands, the Chico O'Farrill band...but >>while a band is getting its act together, everyone should play one >>part unless the lead player gets tired. And if the lead player is any >>good, the parts are written correctly and he is playing appropriate >>equipment, he WON'T get tired very often. >> >> 'Nuf said? > >Maybe. I work with a two trombone band frequently. The lead player >and I know each other's capabilities and taste sufficiently well >that we pass parts a lot. HOWEVER, when we did Chicago, there was >absolutely no question about who played lead and who played second. >Nothing was passed and the question never came up. (Nor will it >ever in my world.) When Dan's on the show I play second...no >question's asked. >> >> But, as usual, I'll say more. >> >> Why is the 1st part intrinsically more important, challenging or >>satisfying then the 2nd or 3rd part? >> >> I've never been able to adequately figure this out, unless it's >>all about ego assuagement. > >Depends on how the book's written. I'll play any of them while I >prefer, and am usually hired to play bass. I don't think there's an >intrinsic question regarding importance. A certain amount of ego >assuagement is undeniable but I think a lot of us who are used to >playing the exterior parts have a hard time getting our arms around >the satisfaction that can come from playing the interior parts. >> >> And it should NOT be. >> >> It's all about the music. >> >> Isn't it? > >SURE. Dee Stewart was a marvelous second trombone player in the >Phila. Orch. He understood, understands, and performs wonderfully >as an interior player! Point is, some can, some can't. >Let's go back to horns at this point. > >As a bass trombone player, my favorite section is two or three small >horns on top. I define small for these purposes as anything from a >4-24H to a 3B-16. ======== OK...in another thread here it turns out that the British consider bore sizes in terms of small, medium, medium large and large bores. I suppose everyone has their own idea of what these words mean. Here's mine. (And it is of course dependent on concept, m'pce, and individual horn as well as bore size.) I prefer to hear a relatively bright sound from the lead player in most big band trombone sections. I have NEVER heard this sound from a player playing anything larger than a .509 instrument and/or a m'pce any larger than a 6 1/2AL. In the occasional specific band...Thad Jones' writing for the Vanguard Band, for example...a great .525 player like John Mosca works fine as well. I am a fairly good and experienced lead player, and in the 40 or so times when I have been caught in a situation where I had to play lead on .525-ish equipment I have never been really happy with the result. Since I have some idea of what it's SUPPOSED to sound like...again, I have played literally hundreds of times in sections led by players like Urbie Green, Britt Woodman, and Wayne Andre just to name a few...I find myself trying to artificially and unnaturally brighten up the sound of the larger equipment in order to get the right effect, and although I guess it works to some degree, it ain't ever REALLY right. Almost every great sounding lead player w/whom I have ever played used something in the .500 range....485-ish 2Bs, .509-ish 3Bs and Bach 16s on the outskirts of that size...and a m'pce in the 12C-7C range, w/6 1/2A + 6 1/2AL-ish m'pces working if the player is really strong and can brighten up the sound when required. On 2nd in a 4 piece section OR a 3 piece one I prefer to hear a more J. J.-ish sound. This can be gotten from a .500 bore or a .525, but .509 is the ideal. On 3rd....525 is perfect, or maybe a .509 with a good sized m'pce. A really good .547 player who is not playing some sort of bathtub for a m'pce is OK too. It is nice to have a trigger on 3rd parts as well, if only because there are only a very few players who can really play (or will bother to stretch for) a low B consistently in tune on a straight horn. Plus, the trigger helps mobility and clean articulation SO much in the lower octave of the tenor trombone. When instead you have a whole section of relatively bright tenors and a bass, there is rarely any blend whatsoever amongst all the trombones. It becomes three trombones and some other instrument that is lower. When you have tenor trombones that are all generally darker, then you get this "trombone" section...not a bad sound, if they can play...that has no relationship to or blend whatsoever with the "brass" section. That's fine if there is little tutti writing, but...there's almost ALWAYS tutti writing. Plus... smaller equipment in the hands of a good player is relatively easy to darken up some (just back off a little..,) but although large instrument CAN be brightened, it is a physical chore to do so and the attempt often results in a higher volume than is truly correct for the parts. Thus my choices. ================================== > Here's why. In most situations, the higher players can handle >these horns without straining. Consequently, the players are fairly >relaxed and their sound production follows suit. So, to make it >simple, my job is easier because I can hear the lead player better, >the section tends to blend better, and (in many ways most >importantly) I can hear the lead trumpet player better and help >support him in tutti sections. Additionally, if I'm not fighting >to hear the other trombone section players, I can spend some "other >ear" time focusing on the baritone player to make sure the bottom of >the band is in tune and sounding and functioning as a good >foundation. Obviously, the music benefits and that's the important >thing. Comments please. >> >> SOLOS should be passed around, at least among players who are >>roughly equal in achievement. (In fact,they SHOULD be passed around >>among sections. The days of 5 tenor solos and 4 trumpet solos to >>every one trombone solo should be over. Too many good trombonists >>now. Sadly, they are not.) >> >> Players who feel comfortable in fast tempi or w/complicated >>changes should be given those assignments; players with a good >>melodic concept and good legato/control should be given THOSE >>assignments, etc. >> >> From each according to his abilities and to each according to his needs. >> >> I play the 3rd parts in Choco O'Farrill's band as much as possible >>because I play a .525 w/a fairly large m'pce, have a good sounding >>and full low range and the section sounds best when the regulars are >>there if my sound fills in between the bass trombone and the 1st + >>2nd. I play lead on a couple of ballad things because I do that >>pretty well also. Pretty much everything else stays where it lays, >>and that section has a BLEND as a result. (Which is almost >>unconscionably rare these days.) When the reguaor lead player isn't >>there I play the lead book on my .500 and we bring in someone who >>plays well ion the lower ranges to play the third book....usually >>someone on either a ,525 or a ,547 horn. >> >> This WORKS. > >I'd disagree about the .547 for the reasons stated above. However, >you in NY may have players who are much more adaptable with the .547 >than we have here in Kansas City. I'll defer to you on that score. =========== Yes, we do. Tim Sessions, Robin Eubanks, Bob Suttman, Lewis Kahn, myself when I play my .547,any NUMBER of Slide Hampton influenced players,lots of players coming out of the conservatories... =============== >> >> While I am at it...I am SO sick of hearing bands where trombonists >>who simply cannot make a particular tempo are given a solo in the >>name of "equality' while trombonists (or even other instrumentalists) >>who CAN do so are sitting right next to them on the bandstand,of >>hearing bands where the section sounds fairly good for two or three >>pieces and then some lame is given the lead part because he's ooing >>to spew bad vibes if he doesn't get to play lead once in a while and >>the section falls apart. > >No shit. >> >> These decisions are really the bandleader's responsibility, but >>since so many bandleaders have a middle management, pass the buck >>attitude and so many more are in Cloud Cuckoo Land and figure "Well >>gosh, golly gee, fate will take care of us", the responsibility for >>this kind of decision should fall on the lead trombonist. (Or at >>least the strongest, most experienced trombonist in the section.) > >Sam, these are management decisions of a very sensitive nature. >While I agree with you that the decision SHOULD be that of the >strongest, most experiecenced trombonist in the section, in >practicality, the decision should PROBABLY go to the lead player. =============== That's because the lead player is traditionally considered to be the strongest player in the section. My point is that this is not a necessary or even good tradition. If I were in a section where say Jim Knepper was playing third, for example...a great position for his sound...(and I have been in that position), then unless someone who was his peer was playing "lead", I would suggest that matters of that sort be left more in Jim's hands. Which they usually were... Again...why should the third part considered "easier", less challenging, less rewarding or less prestigious? Not in my world... >> >> Ok, rant over. > >Aye, and a good, well thought out rant it was. Thanks for letting me join. ========= My pleasure. S. ---snip--- -- Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC. Visit us on the web at and/or , email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by appointment only. PLEASE VISIT THE OPEN HORN,A WEB FORUM Lots of interesting discussions going on every day. An introduction to the site is available at ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 09:28:31 -0700 From: Frank Darmiento Subject: Hary Janos Question I'll be playing the first trombone part on the Kodaly "Hary Janos Suite" in a few weeks. The part has one of the most difficult licks I've run across in orchestral literature and I'm interested in some views on attacking it. The lick in question is in the sixth movement starting at rehearsal number 7. In the third and fifth bars after number 7 the notes are (above middle C) four sixteenths--Ab-Bb-C-Bb to an Ab (eighth note). The tempo is about 120-126 for a quarter note. I've tried a variety of strategies to play it. My current option is to play all five notes in 3rd position and double-tongue the sixteenths. The other approaches I've tried (with less success) are: 1. Play all five notes in 3rd position and lip-slup them all. This works great for me up to a tempo of about MM=90. Faster than that and I can't control the notes. Yeah, I know, practice more, but that will take about six months at my present rate of progress. 2. Play the first & last Ab in 3rd position and the C & Bb in 1st and double-tongue the notes. 3. Play the Ab in 3rd, Bb in 5th, C in 6th (i.e., 3-5-6-5-3 for the entire lick) and slur the notes "against the grain." (Ends up sounding like some sort of dixieland lick when I do it.) 4. Play the Ab with the trigger in flat 2nd, Bb in 1st open & C in 1st with the trigger, using the trigger to articulate the notes. Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions on this? -- Frank T. Darmiento Scottsdale, Arizona frank@darmiento.com www.SackbutMusic.com --------------------------- Frank Darmiento's new jazz CD "Sudden Impact" is now available from Summit Records at: http://www.summitrecords.com/product.tmpl?SKU=339 -- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 09:24:45 -0800 From: Chris Tune Subject: Re: large bore rant Clearly there is a HUGE difference between something as well thought out as what Sam proposes and the instance I was thinking of when the RANT started [see what follows]: A section normally playing small or .500 bore horns shows for a rehearsal or gig and one of the regulars (or a sub who just did this for who nose why. . .) shows with a non-trigger .547 bore horn and large shank pretty large mpce. The vibe is: "I'm experimenting with this horn guys. . ." meanwhile, back at the ranch, the section now has these goofy mgmt. problems--lead bone player has one player with this utterly different horn. Does this guy get to solo? Probably yes if he/she can solo well. Do the soli sections sound good? Maybe half-way if the player is really good and can compensate for the gear. . . Maybe not if everything isn't just so. Does the bebop really bop along.? Jury out on that one. . .again a super virtuoso will help. . .they are so rare. I never did have anybody's feelings in mind other than the trombone players and some very astute "big eared" listeners (e.g. our dearly departed Billy May, who could hear one wrong note out of an entire big band). Forget the leader. . .he or she will never notice. Forget the rhythm players, sax players and trumpets. They are busy with their gigi. The main problem is with the lead bone and bone section who now has to compensate. It really is not a problem in a rock band three or four horn section. Also no problem on the small combo scene. Incidentally, Steve Ferguson, Paul Young, and I joined John Sandhagen on bass bone Tues. nite with a fully size big band.. We played at various times (Steve) an alto trb, my King 2B, a Lawler .500 bore that Steve brought for us all to try out, and Paul's trusty Bach 16M. The blend was quite good. Steve is becoming quite a good alto bone player. Now that would theoretically be unusual for big band but it worked. Perhaps not always to perfection, but quite well. This was not a high exposure gig but more like a rehearsal on steroids. I have a feeling that Steve would elect to use a tenor for a true serious gigging situation. The point is that there is no hard and fast rule, but there certainly is some sort of needed etiquette here! Also, knowing how goofy these situations are, If I had the horns I'd put a bass bone, medium large bore horn (either with or without trigger) and a small bore horn in the trunk of my car to show for everything. Chris Tune ----- Original Message ----- From: "sabutin" To: Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 6:55 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] large bore rant > >Hi Sam, > > > >Let's have a discussion. Your comments are on point, but I've got a > >couple of exceptions that I'd like to raise. I've inserted them in > >your text below. Thanks for talking. Best, Bob > > > >>From: sabutin > >>Reply-To: sabutin > >>To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > >>Subject: Re: [TBN-L] large bore rant > >>Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:23:26 -0500 > >> > >> About horn sizes, parts, sections, and handing parts around... > >> > >> I MUCH prefer hearing small horns on top, medium horns in the > >>middle, and larger horns on the bottom. > >> > >> And they blend BETTER if everyone is playing in a range that is > >>fairly comfortable for their equipment. > > > >If we're talking about concert bands, brass bands or the like, I > >would tend to agree. If we're talking about the usual pick-up > >freelance section I don't agree. Mixed horns leave an awful lot to > >chance...more about this later. > > ============ > Depends on the players... > > >> > >> Regarding passing parts around... > >> > >> If you really want the band to sound good...leave the parts where > >>they belong as much as possible and let everyone learn one discrete > >>blend. > >> > >> Among the great lead players who did it this way as much as is > >>humanly possible with whom I have worked are Urbie Green, Wayne > >>Andre, Britt Woodman, Dave Steinmeyer, Brent Wallarab and Jim Knepper. > > > >Absolutely!!! > >> > >>Also every B'way show, high level recording situation and > >>concert/performance big band. > >> > >>And let's not forget those symphony orchestras. > > > >Absolutely in spades. > >> > >> Occasionally a band is together long enough so that individuals > >>who do certain things very well will play a given part no matter on > >>what chair they sit...Duke's bands, the Chico O'Farrill band...but > >>while a band is getting its act together, everyone should play one > >>part unless the lead player gets tired. And if the lead player is any > >>good, the parts are written correctly and he is playing appropriate > >>equipment, he WON'T get tired very often. > >> > >> 'Nuf said? > > > >Maybe. I work with a two trombone band frequently. The lead player > >and I know each other's capabilities and taste sufficiently well > >that we pass parts a lot. HOWEVER, when we did Chicago, there was > >absolutely no question about who played lead and who played second. > >Nothing was passed and the question never came up. (Nor will it > >ever in my world.) When Dan's on the show I play second...no > >question's asked. > >> > >> But, as usual, I'll say more. > >> > >> Why is the 1st part intrinsically more important, challenging or > >>satisfying then the 2nd or 3rd part? > >> > >> I've never been able to adequately figure this out, unless it's > >>all about ego assuagement. > > > >Depends on how the book's written. I'll play any of them while I > >prefer, and am usually hired to play bass. I don't think there's an > >intrinsic question regarding importance. A certain amount of ego > >assuagement is undeniable but I think a lot of us who are used to > >playing the exterior parts have a hard time getting our arms around > >the satisfaction that can come from playing the interior parts. > >> > >> And it should NOT be. > >> > >> It's all about the music. > >> > >> Isn't it? > > > >SURE. Dee Stewart was a marvelous second trombone player in the > >Phila. Orch. He understood, understands, and performs wonderfully > >as an interior player! Point is, some can, some can't. > >Let's go back to horns at this point. > > > >As a bass trombone player, my favorite section is two or three small > >horns on top. I define small for these purposes as anything from a > >4-24H to a 3B-16. > > ======== > > OK...in another thread here it turns out that the British consider > bore sizes in terms of small, medium, medium large and large bores. I > suppose everyone has their own idea of what these words mean. > > Here's mine. (And it is of course dependent on concept, m'pce, and > individual horn as well as bore size.) > > I prefer to hear a relatively bright sound from the lead player in > most big band trombone sections. I have NEVER heard this sound from a > player playing anything larger than a .509 instrument and/or a m'pce > any larger than a 6 1/2AL. In the occasional specific band...Thad > Jones' writing for the Vanguard Band, for example...a great .525 > player like John Mosca works fine as well. I am a fairly good and > experienced lead player, and in the 40 or so times when I have been > caught in a situation where I had to play lead on .525-ish equipment > I have never been really happy with the result. Since I have some > idea of what it's SUPPOSED to sound like...again, I have played > literally hundreds of times in sections led by players like Urbie > Green, Britt Woodman, and Wayne Andre just to name a few...I find > myself trying to artificially and unnaturally brighten up the sound > of the larger equipment in order to get the right effect, and > although I guess it works to some degree, it ain't ever REALLY right. > > Almost every great sounding lead player w/whom I have ever played > used something in the .500 range....485-ish 2Bs, .509-ish 3Bs and > Bach 16s on the outskirts of that size...and a m'pce in the 12C-7C > range, w/6 1/2A + 6 1/2AL-ish m'pces working if the player is really > strong and can brighten up the sound when required. > > On 2nd in a 4 piece section OR a 3 piece one I prefer to hear a more > J. J.-ish sound. This can be gotten from a .500 bore or a .525, but > .509 is the ideal. > > On 3rd....525 is perfect, or maybe a .509 with a good sized m'pce. A > really good .547 player who is not playing some sort of bathtub for a > m'pce is OK too. It is nice to have a trigger on 3rd parts as well, > if only because there are only a very few players who can really play > (or will bother to stretch for) a low B consistently in tune on a > straight horn. Plus, the trigger helps mobility and clean > articulation SO much in the lower octave of the tenor trombone. > > When instead you have a whole section of relatively bright tenors and > a bass, there is rarely any blend whatsoever amongst all the > trombones. It becomes three trombones and some other instrument that > is lower. > > When you have tenor trombones that are all generally darker, then you > get this "trombone" section...not a bad sound, if they can > play...that has no relationship to or blend whatsoever with the > "brass" section. That's fine if there is little tutti writing, > but...there's almost ALWAYS tutti writing. > > Plus... smaller equipment in the hands of a good player is relatively > easy to darken up some (just back off a little..,) but although large > instrument CAN be brightened, it is a physical chore to do so and the > attempt often results in a higher volume than is truly correct for > the parts. > > Thus my choices. > > ================================== > > > Here's why. In most situations, the higher players can handle > >these horns without straining. Consequently, the players are fairly > >relaxed and their sound production follows suit. So, to make it > >simple, my job is easier because I can hear the lead player better, > >the section tends to blend better, and (in many ways most > >importantly) I can hear the lead trumpet player better and help > >support him in tutti sections. Additionally, if I'm not fighting > >to hear the other trombone section players, I can spend some "other > >ear" time focusing on the baritone player to make sure the bottom of > >the band is in tune and sounding and functioning as a good > >foundation. Obviously, the music benefits and that's the important > >thing. Comments please. > >> > >> SOLOS should be passed around, at least among players who are > >>roughly equal in achievement. (In fact,they SHOULD be passed around > >>among sections. The days of 5 tenor solos and 4 trumpet solos to > >>every one trombone solo should be over. Too many good trombonists > >>now. Sadly, they are not.) > >> > >> Players who feel comfortable in fast tempi or w/complicated > >>changes should be given those assignments; players with a good > >>melodic concept and good legato/control should be given THOSE > >>assignments, etc. > >> > >> From each according to his abilities and to each according to his needs. > >> > >> I play the 3rd parts in Choco O'Farrill's band as much as possible > >>because I play a .525 w/a fairly large m'pce, have a good sounding > >>and full low range and the section sounds best when the regulars are > >>there if my sound fills in between the bass trombone and the 1st + > >>2nd. I play lead on a couple of ballad things because I do that > >>pretty well also. Pretty much everything else stays where it lays, > >>and that section has a BLEND as a result. (Which is almost > >>unconscionably rare these days.) When the reguaor lead player isn't > >>there I play the lead book on my .500 and we bring in someone who > >>plays well ion the lower ranges to play the third book....usually > >>someone on either a ,525 or a ,547 horn. > >> > >> This WORKS. > > > >I'd disagree about the .547 for the reasons stated above. However, > >you in NY may have players who are much more adaptable with the .547 > >than we have here in Kansas City. I'll defer to you on that score. > > > =========== > > Yes, we do. > > Tim Sessions, Robin Eubanks, Bob Suttman, Lewis Kahn, myself when > I play my .547,any NUMBER of Slide Hampton influenced players,lots of > players coming out of the conservatories... > > =============== > > >> > >> While I am at it...I am SO sick of hearing bands where trombonists > >>who simply cannot make a particular tempo are given a solo in the > >>name of "equality' while trombonists (or even other instrumentalists) > >>who CAN do so are sitting right next to them on the bandstand,of > >>hearing bands where the section sounds fairly good for two or three > >>pieces and then some lame is given the lead part because he's ooing > >>to spew bad vibes if he doesn't get to play lead once in a while and > >>the section falls apart. > > > >No shit. > >> > >> These decisions are really the bandleader's responsibility, but > >>since so many bandleaders have a middle management, pass the buck > >>attitude and so many more are in Cloud Cuckoo Land and figure "Well > >>gosh, golly gee, fate will take care of us", the responsibility for > >>this kind of decision should fall on the lead trombonist. (Or at > >>least the strongest, most experienced trombonist in the section.) > > > >Sam, these are management decisions of a very sensitive nature. > >While I agree with you that the decision SHOULD be that of the > >strongest, most experiecenced trombonist in the section, in > >practicality, the decision should PROBABLY go to the lead player. > > > =============== > > That's because the lead player is traditionally considered to be > the strongest player in the section. My point is that this is not a > necessary or even good tradition. If I were in a section where say > Jim Knepper was playing third, for example...a great position for his > sound...(and I have been in that position), then unless someone who > was his peer was playing "lead", I would suggest that matters of that > sort be left more in Jim's hands. > > Which they usually were... > > Again...why should the third part considered "easier", less > challenging, less rewarding or less prestigious? > > Not in my world... > > >> > >> Ok, rant over. > > > >Aye, and a good, well thought out rant it was. Thanks for letting me join. > > > ========= > > My pleasure. > > S. > > ---snip--- > > -- > Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of > "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in > NYC. Visit us on the web at and/or > , email us at , > or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by > appointment only. > > PLEASE VISIT THE OPEN HORN,A WEB FORUM > Lots of interesting discussions going on every day. > An introduction to the site is available at > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 13:01:52 -0500 From: sabutin Subject: Jeff Adams having trouble re-subscribing Hi all,.. Sorry to post this here, but I don't know the proper address for such queries. Jeff Adams emailed me with this message: ============ > > I've changed all my e'dress' and web info over the last month but >have been unsuccessful in getting back on to >trombone-L. Can you help? I've used the subscription portal about >10 times to no avail. >(http://po.missouri.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=trombone-l&A=1) =========== Can anybody help him? Sam -- Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC. Visit us on the web at and/or , email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by appointment only. PLEASE VISIT THE OPEN HORN,A WEB FORUM Lots of interesting discussions going on every day. An introduction to the site is available at ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 15:57:41 EST From: JFBermann@AOL.COM Subject: For Sale: D slides for Bach 50B2 Traditional Tight Wrap For Sale: D slides for Bach 50B2 Traditional Wrap Bass Trombone. In Basically new condition, old store stock. $100 plus shipping. Contact Jim Bermann off the list. JFBermann@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 14:30:30 -0800 From: John B Subject: Shires & Bach Mouthpieces Anybody experiencing a lousy fit with Shires & Bach Mouthpieces? All my other mpc's fit snugly in the Shires but all the Bachs wiggle around in the leadpipe. John ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 19:03:57 -0500 From: Posaune9@AOL.COM Subject: Reunion Blues Leather bag for sale To those interested, I am selling a Reunion Blues black leather gig bag. This bag has the separate slide compartment on the side and fits up to an 8.5 inch bell. The bag is in great condition and has been used very little. This bag new runs around $270. I will sell this one for $200 and buyer pays shipping and insurance. Thanks, Ryan Johnstone Yale University ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 16:14:32 -0800 From: Matthew Stoecker Subject: Anyone have a used Bach 12 or 16 slide for sale? I'd be interested in hearing about it if you do... Matt Stoecker ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 20:58:22 -0500 From: Jayson Rowe Subject: Mouthpieces for Sale I have the following pieces up for grabs - make offers, all will be considered - trying to clear out the clutter. Dennis Wick Heavy Top 5AL (Large Shank) Bach 15C, Small letters, Period after Corp. (Small Shank) Benge 12C (Small Shank) Unmarked 12C - Appears Nickle Plated (Small Shank) Unmarked 12C (Small Shank) Olds 3 (Small Shank) Blessing 6 1/2 AL (Small Shank) Yamaha 45C2 (Small Shank) Yamaha 48 (Large Shank) Bach 5GS, Small Letters, No Corp at all (Large Shank) Bach 6 1/2 AL, Small Letters, Period after the Corp (Small Shank) Conn 5G - UMI, Bach Style (Large Shank) Make offers for individual pieces or for the whole lot. I might accept trades as well - just ask. I'm always interested in trying different pieces. I'm especially looking for "Smaller than usual" Large shank mouthpieces, such as the Schilke 47 Large Shank, any of the smaller, large shank Marcinkiwicz models, Wick 9BL - also, it seems Bach make 7C's, 11C's and 12C's in large shank at some time...anything interesting like this could get the whole lot!!! Let me know if interested! Jay ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 21:10:43 -0800 From: Price Taylor Subject: Re: Shires & Bach Mouthpieces Sam Burtis uses some specific tape just for this purpose...I forgot what kind, but he does wrap the mouthpiece shank with tape. Sam? Price -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of John B Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 2:30 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] Shires & Bach Mouthpieces Anybody experiencing a lousy fit with Shires & Bach Mouthpieces? All my other mpc's fit snugly in the Shires but all the Bachs wiggle around in the leadpipe. John ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 23:49:20 -0600 From: Fred Hudson Subject: Re: Shires & Bach Mouthpieces I use Teflon pipe thread wrap for this purpose. It's also good for older horns with a worn friction fit slide to bell connection. Fred H ----- Original Message ----- From: "Price Taylor" To: Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 11:10 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Shires & Bach Mouthpieces > Sam Burtis uses some specific tape just for this purpose...I forgot what > kind, but he does wrap the mouthpiece shank with tape. > > Sam? > > Price > > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. > [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of John B > Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 2:30 PM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: [TBN-L] Shires & Bach Mouthpieces > > > Anybody experiencing a lousy fit > with Shires & Bach Mouthpieces? > > All my other mpc's fit snugly in the > Shires but all the Bachs wiggle around > in the leadpipe. > > John > ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 4 Feb 2004 to 5 Feb 2004 (#2004-37) **************************************************************