Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 3 Feb 2004 to 4 Feb 2004 (#2004-36) Date: Thursday, February 5, 2004 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 15 messages totalling 680 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Freelancing Dilemma (2) 2. large bore rant (4) 3. Big Bore Rant 4. Big Brother Rant 5. Looking for .547 bore leadpipe... (2) 6. To F-attach or not to F-attach 7. Bach Slide for sale 8. TROMBONE-L Digest - 1 Feb 2004 to 2 Feb 2004 (#2004-34) 9. Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] Freelancing Dilemma 10. Greg Black -Joe Alessi Mouthpieces for sale ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 01:26:04 EST From: MikeSuter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Freelancing Dilemma Hi Mike & All, << My solution to this problem, especially when not a lot of money is being offered, is to tell the client up front that if anything comes along which pays double or more, I will have to back out . . . It's pretty hard to get yourself in deep doo-doo's with this policy. >> Don't you find that there are guys who won't call you because of this? Just wondering. I know if someone told me this, I'd tell them to forget about my gig and not call them in the future. No anger. I just wouldn't put myself in possible harm's way. Mike ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:07:27 -0800 From: Steve Ferguson Subject: Re: large bore rant Don't any of you folks hand the parts around in a big band bone section? Around here if some schmo shows up for a big band gig with a Bach 42B and thinks he's going to play only on the third part, he's in for a surprise. Equal pay for equal pain, I always say. Even the third player gets a good share of lead and bebop parts. I certainly don't want to sit on the lead book and blast away in the stratosphere for four sets. ouch. I hand freely. The bonus of being on the lead book is deciding what I'll play and when I'll hand parts around. Many of the books already have the lead parts spread around a bit. Steve Ferguson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 08:52:23 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: large bore rant From: "Steve Ferguson" > Don't any of you folks hand the parts around in a big band bone section? > Around here if some schmo shows up for a big band gig with a Bach 42B and > thinks he's going to play only on the third part, he's in for a surprise. Exactly. The lead player has to rest his chops some of the time. It makes no sense to swap places with a big horn, just as it makes no sense for the bass 'bone to be playing any part other than the lowest. I've come across this situation many times. I'm booked for the bass 'bone chair. I get to the gig to find that many of the charts are written basically for 3 'bones with an added 4th part that has notes in various positions of the voicing, even the top. How this kind of part gets to be assigned to the 4th chair, I will never know. I wait for the nearest convenient rest to snatch the 3rd part and replace it with mine. The 3rd chair player then has a puzzled expression, wondering why he has suddenly been demoted to 4th. Another thing that infuriates me is the singer who has parts only for 3 'bones, so she xeroxes the 1st part to be doubled by the bass 'bone, presumably an octave lower. In this case, I just refuse to play. I'd rather sit it out than screw up the original voicing. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 08:05:47 EST From: BITEensemble@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Big Bore Rant In a message dated 2/3/2004 6:00:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, dale@dalecruse.com writes: Wes, if your statement below is true, then why bother owning three (or more) trombones? ---- Dale Cruse www.dalecruse.com Setting you up for success. On Feb 3, 2004, at 8:12 AM, BITEensemble@AOL.COM wrote: > I can sound exactly the same on my big shires as I can on my .500 bore > Shires or my 4H. Simple, and I already answered that in my first email. It is easier. You can achieve the same sound on both horns, but it IS more difficult to play a large horn on a big band gig when playing lead. I use them mostly for shows. And, I like trombones, so why not have a few ;-) I played "Follies" in downtown Boston on both the small shires and the large one. Sounded just about the same according to colleagues. The difference was that the next day after playing the large trombone, my chops felt like I have been hit by a truck. -Wes ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 06:44:36 -0700 From: Steve Gamble Subject: Re: Big Brother Rant "He loved Big Brother." Steve Gamble, Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 (520) 792-9155 x118 (520) 792-9314 fax (520) 991-7056 cel sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of DSlide13@AOL.COM Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 1:36 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Big Bore Rant I think the most important thing that we've learned from this discussion is that there is only one correct bore size to play in a big band. As demonstrated by many on this list with several passionate arguments and anecdotes, I have seen the error of my previous ways. I'm convinced that small bores are the way to go. I cab thank one influential trombone accessory manufacturer for personally taking time with me to point out my flaws in concept and technique. I think the world is a much better place when we all subscribe to the same singular view and try to suppress differing voices. The silliest argument that I've heard is that it's a taste issue. Taste obviously has nothing to do with it. Isn't music about science? It's all about mathematics and physics. There's no room for taste. And this jibberish about the power of the mind...I mean really. Aren't we getting a little too cosmic here. That's not what music is about. So, I hope we've all learned our lesson. There is only one way to do anything, and that's with a small bore instrument....as long as you're playing 1st, 2nd, or 3rd part in a big jazz band. To the others who may disagree, I say start you're own list or pick a new instrument to play. You'll never be accepted here. Quiet your voices and step in line with the conventional way of thinking in the same way as Columbus and Magellan. So, I'm off to my weekly hate group meeting, but thanks to all for your words. Now I truly know that OUR way is the only way. DG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 06:33:19 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Freelancing Dilemma --- Peter Collins & Sara Wilbur wrote: > In the end, I made as much on that one gig as I > would have on the > whole tour! > > There is a moral in there somewhere... LOL...what a story! I don't tend to think there's a moral in this one, other than s#!+ happens. ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 15:02:38 -0500 From: "John J. Jenkins" Subject: Looking for .547 bore leadpipe... Does anyone out there have a #2 large bore tenor (.547) leadpipe by Edwards, Shires, Getzen, or any other reputable "custom" company that you would be will to sell for a good price? If so, please let me know. Age isn't an issue; condition is a BIG issue! Thank you. John J. Jenkins "I have opinions of my own - strong opinions - but I don't always agree with them." - George Bush ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:23:26 -0500 From: sabutin Subject: Re: large bore rant About horn sizes, parts, sections, and handing parts around... I MUCH prefer hearing small horns on top, medium horns in the middle, and larger horns on the bottom. And they blend BETTER if everyone is playing in a range that is fairly comfortable for their equipment. Regarding passing parts around... If you really want the band to sound good...leave the parts where they belong as much as possible and let everyone learn one discrete blend. Among the great lead players who did it this way as much as is humanly possible with whom I have worked are Urbie Green, Wayne Andre, Britt Woodman, Dave Steinmeyer, Brent Wallarab and Jim Knepper. Also every B'way show, high level recording situation and concert/performance big band. And let's not forget those symphony orchestras. Occasionally a band is together long enough so that individuals who do certain things very well will play a given part no matter on what chair they sit...Duke's bands, the Chico O'Farrill band...but while a band is getting its act together, everyone should play one part unless the lead player gets tired. And if the lead player is any good, the parts are written correctly and he is playing appropriate equipment, he WON'T get tired very often. 'Nuf said? But, as usual, I'll say more. Why is the 1st part intrinsically more important, challenging or satisfying then the 2nd or 3rd part? I've never been able to adequately figure this out, unless it's all about ego assuagement. And it should NOT be. It's all about the music. Isn't it? SOLOS should be passed around, at least among players who are roughly equal in achievement. (In fact,they SHOULD be passed around among sections. The days of 5 tenor solos and 4 trumpet solos to every one trombone solo should be over. Too many good trombonists now. Sadly, they are not.) Players who feel comfortable in fast tempi or w/complicated changes should be given those assignments; players with a good melodic concept and good legato/control should be given THOSE assignments, etc. From each according to his abilities and to each according to his needs. I play the 3rd parts in Choco O'Farrill's band as much as possible because I play a .525 w/a fairly large m'pce, have a good sounding and full low range and the section sounds best when the regulars are there if my sound fills in between the bass trombone and the 1st + 2nd. I play lead on a couple of ballad things because I do that pretty well also. Pretty much everything else stays where it lays, and that section has a BLEND as a result. (Which is almost unconscionably rare these days.) When the reguaor lead player isn't there I play the lead book on my .500 and we bring in someone who plays well ion the lower ranges to play the third book....usually someone on either a ,525 or a ,547 horn. This WORKS. While I am at it...I am SO sick of hearing bands where trombonists who simply cannot make a particular tempo are given a solo in the name of "equality' while trombonists (or even other instrumentalists) who CAN do so are sitting right next to them on the bandstand,of hearing bands where the section sounds fairly good for two or three pieces and then some lame is given the lead part because he's ooing to spew bad vibes if he doesn't get to play lead once in a while and the section falls apart. These decisions are really the bandleader's responsibility, but since so many bandleaders have a middle management, pass the buck attitude and so many more are in Cloud Cuckoo Land and figure "Well gosh, golly gee, fate will take care of us", the responsibility for this kind of decision should fall on the lead trombonist. (Or at least the strongest, most experienced trombonist in the section.) Ok, rant over. Back to long tones... Later... S. -- Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC. Visit us on the web at and/or , email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by appointment only. PLEASE VISIT THE OPEN HORN,A WEB FORUM Lots of interesting discussions going on every day. An introduction to the site is available at ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:53:25 EST From: Johannes Mader Subject: Re: Looking for .547 bore leadpipe... Have you checked the OTJ Classified Ads? http://www.trombone.org/classifieds ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 17:23:47 -0500 From: Raymond Horton Subject: Re: large bore rant Many years ago, when this one really bad big band I subbed with a couple of times called, I said OK. They always had four bones, or so I thought. I showed up for the gig with my bass bone only to find out that this time they just hired three bones. OK - I'll play third. Well the location had been moved , so everybody was late - and the second player wasn't there yet, so the lead player just reached over as we started to play and gave me the second book before I had a chance to squeal. Then, when we started the second or third tune in the book - something's wrong - then I realized - I've got the FIRST part on this tune in my folder. The lead player, who is playing on an OLDS AMBASSADOR (with what must have been the original mouthpiece) is playing the second part in his lead folder, and yours truly - Mr. All-day Sucker - is playing the lead part on his double-Thayer Valve 50B3 and Shilke 60! That sure sounded wonderful. Fortunately the missing trombonist showed up pretty soon, and I made sure to read the name of the part before the start of every tune from then on. (I faintly recall faking a lot of bass parts, anyway, as the gig went on - I was pretty ticked off by then). The rhythm section fell apart all night anyway. At one point the singer refused to sing, - saying - "I'm gonna take some off - You guys better get it together!" I didn't take any more gigs with that band. Ray Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Drover" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 3:52 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] large bore rant > From: "Steve Ferguson" > > > > Don't any of you folks hand the parts around in a big band bone section? > > Around here if some schmo shows up for a big band gig with a Bach 42B and > > thinks he's going to play only on the third part, he's in for a surprise. > > > Exactly. The lead player has to rest his chops some of the time. It makes > no sense to swap places with a big horn, just as it makes no sense for the > bass 'bone to be playing any part other than the lowest. I've come across > this situation many times. I'm booked for the bass 'bone chair. I get to > the gig to find that many of the charts are written basically for 3 'bones > with an added 4th part that has notes in various positions of the voicing, > even the top. How this kind of part gets to be assigned to the 4th chair, I > will never know. I wait for the nearest convenient rest to snatch the 3rd > part and replace it with mine. The 3rd chair player then has a puzzled > expression, wondering why he has suddenly been demoted to 4th. Another > thing that infuriates me is the singer who has parts only for 3 'bones, so > she xeroxes the 1st part to be doubled by the bass 'bone, presumably an > octave lower. In this case, I just refuse to play. I'd rather sit it out > than screw up the original voicing. > > A. > > Adrian Drover > ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk > Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:32:36 -0800 From: emrose79 Subject: Re: To F-attach or not to F-attach Excellent idea!!!!! :) Dale Cruse wrote: > So should we use a .578 for the bottom part in a five-trombone section? > ---- > Dale Cruse > www.dalecruse.com > Setting you up for success. > > On Feb 3, 2004, at 6:51 PM, emrose79 wrote: > >> Hmmm... how about... .500, .525, .547, .562 for the whole section??? >> (1st 2nd 3rd and 4th) >> Ed (another poke at the theory)..... don't forget the :) >> Jeff Albert wrote: >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Trombones and related issues forum. >>> [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Chris Tune >>> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 3:34 PM >>> To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU >>> Subject: Re: [TBN-L] To F-attach or not to F-attach >>> >>> >>> ---snip--- >>> There are reasons players choose large bore for symphony and small >>> bore for >>> jazz band. The best is that there is a proper blend with the >>> section mates. >>> ---snip--- >>> >>> What if the whole section played .547s? Then they would blend with >>> each >>> other. >>> >>> Jeff (not trying to start a war, just poking at the theory a little) >>> Albert >> > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 21:50:08 EST From: Posaune9@AOL.COM Subject: Bach Slide for sale To those interested, I am selling a light weight bach bass trombone slide. It is in perfect condition and plays very well, too. Price is negotiable, and I will entertain reasonable offers. Please contact me privately if you are interested. Ryan Johnstone Yale University ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 20:49:35 -0800 From: Les Benedict Subject: Re: TROMBONE-L Digest - 1 Feb 2004 to 2 Feb 2004 (#2004-34) Alex is right, and his accomplishments speak for his credibility. There is NO replacement for LISTENING AND PRACTICING! The Kleinhammer "The Art of Trombone Playing" (the original one, still in print) is the Bible of trombone playing. Read it. Use it. Live it. Love it. A special instrument and/or mouthpiece might make playing easier (and that's a good thing), but there's no replacement for hard work. Ask my former student, Conrad Herwig. He has always worked hard, and he admits that his penchant for hard work is his greatest asset. When I work hard, I benefit. When I don't, I suffer the consequences. And this is my 50th year of playing trombone. The trombone never plays itself. YOU play IT. Hard Work is the answer, and Energy is what we have to (and must) spend. Spend it. It pays off. Big time. Les Benedict lbenedict@socal.rr.com http://home.switchboard.com/lesbenedict > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 01:28:59 +0000 > From: Daniel Pliskin > Subject: Re: To F-attach or not to F-attach > > > > >Daniel Pliskin wrote: > > > > > To get a more lively sound: > > > > > > Change your mouthpiece > > > > > > Change lead pipes > > > > > > Strip the finish off of the bell flare > > > > > > Remove unneeded cross-braces from the F section > > > > > > Use a different trombone > > > >How about....LISTENING AND PRACTICING?!? > > Alex, > > President Bush would be really displeased with that kind of answer. Surely > you buy into his logic, that if we just keep on spending, everything will be > OK. > > DanP > > PS. And as for practicing until you get the sound you want, there's GOT to > be a magic pill that will make your sound however you want it, right now. > Short of that, it's obviously time to go out shopping for new equipment. > > _________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 00:07:28 -0500 From: TRBNTERRY Subject: Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] Freelancing Dilemma --WebTV-Mail-412-578 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit --WebTV-Mail-412-578 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhQR0PmSvLyNL7mFN/I5UZyAyQO9lQIVAKVrIBz+c351C9x8HM52TUZhuocY From: TRBNTERRY@webtv.net (TRBNTERRY) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 00:05:54 -0500 (EST) To: MikeSuter@aol.com Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Freelancing Dilemma Message-ID: <10548-4021CF32-840@storefull-3132.bay.webtv.net> In-Reply-To: MikeSuter@aol.com's message of Wed, 4 Feb 2004 01:26:04 EST Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-18752-480 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) --WebTV-Mail-18752-480 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit I suppose you'd call it a mutual gamble. I'm gambling hat something a lot more lucrative may show up, even if they don't call me again. I get calls for gigs that range from anywhere between $75 and $200. I only tell that to the $75 people, and I already know who they are. I keep my commitment on the $200 gigs. It also depends whether we're talking about prime time Friday and Saturday evenings or a weekday afternoon or evening which are not only harder to fill in but you don't often get lots of other calls for the offdays. Mike Terry --WebTV-Mail-18752-480 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Received: from smtpinvite-3104.bay.webtv.net (209.240.204.244) by storefull-3138.bay.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:26:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-m02.mx.aol.com (imo-m02.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.5]) by smtpinvite-3104.bay.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id BAF54BE09 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:26:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from MikeSuter@aol.com by imo-m02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r4.12.) id 2.1d6.19991070 (4592); Wed, 4 Feb 2004 01:26:04 -0500 (EST) From: MikeSuter@aol.com Message-ID: <1d6.19991070.2d51ea7c@aol.com> Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 01:26:04 EST Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Freelancing Dilemma To: TRBNTERRY@WEBTV.NET, TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 X-Brightmail: Message tested, results are inconclusive Hi Mike & All, << My solution to this problem, especially when not a lot of money is being offered, is to tell the client up front that if anything comes along which pays double or more, I will have to back out . . . It's pretty hard to get yourself in deep doo-doo's with this policy. >> Don't you find that there are guys who won't call you because of this? Just wondering. I know if someone told me this, I'd tell them to forget about my gig and not call them in the future. No anger. I just wouldn't put myself in possible harm's way. Mike --WebTV-Mail-18752-480-- --WebTV-Mail-412-578-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 00:16:54 -0500 From: John Olsson Subject: Greg Black -Joe Alessi Mouthpieces for sale Hi Listers! I have 2 Greg Black Alessi signature mouthpieces for sale. #1 tenor large shank #3 tenor large shank These are in excellent condition (hardly played) and can be had for $80 each (includes shipping). That's just about 1/2 price of new at Dillon's music John Olsson jolsson@adelphia.net Adjunct Instructor of Trombone Youngstown State University Mount Union College Bass Trombonist with: Canton, Ohio Symphony Wheeling, WVA Symphony Jazz Heritage Orchestra Soloist with "Sounds of Sousa" Band ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 3 Feb 2004 to 4 Feb 2004 (#2004-36) **************************************************************