Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 1 Feb 2004 to 2 Feb 2004 (#2004-34) Date: Tuesday, February 3, 2004 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 26 messages totalling 981 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Cleartone mute 2. Barber School of Scandal (3) 3. Oddities at the NAMM Show 4. roughening the rim (2) 5. To F-attach or not to F-attach (9) 6. Trombone writing in Janacek (4) 7. Big Bore Rant (6) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 09:27:11 -0500 From: Mike Loewen Subject: Cleartone mute Does anyone know of a music store that has the Humes and Berg 153 Cleartone (Solotone) mute in stock? I need one by the end of the week. Mike Loewen mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 10:59:15 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Barber School of Scandal Quick rep question - are there trombones in Samuel Barber's Overture to the School for Scandal? ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 13:07:23 -0600 From: Bill Dinwiddie Subject: Oddities at the NAMM Show Subject: Oddities at the NAMM Show Here's an interesting link!=20 Once you are at the site, click on "Instruments". I love the 'Short = 'Bone" and the 11 string bass. I always thought most bass players were = too busy with just 4 strings...dig this thing! http://www.otheroom.com/namm/ Bill Dinwiddie billdin@comcast.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:20:26 -0500 From: peter jarnebrant Subject: Re: Barber School of Scandal Quick answer: Yes there are, played it last year. Don't remember details about movements, parts etc. though. //Peter Jarnebrant -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Gabriel Langfur Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 1:59 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] Barber School of Scandal Quick rep question - are there trombones in Samuel Barber's Overture to the School for Scandal? ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:16:32 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: roughening the rim Yāall, I can always tell when itās time to trim my beard, in that Iām less able to play the high notes on the trombone. But this time, I decided that itās cold and Iād just as soon keep my bristles. Now, I donāt expect anybody to feel sorry for me about the cold. We never get snow around here, for example, only cold rain. But anyway, I thought that just maybe, my problems with high notes was that Iāve got this new, GREAT mouthpiece (a Bach 3) and itās still really smooth. So I decided to add a layer of masking tape to the rim. It helped. Other than repeatedly dropping my new mouthpiece in the sidewalk, to roughen it up and other than gold plating the mouthpiece, does anyone know of a semi-permanent way to make a mouthpiece feel a bit rougher? DanP _________________________________________________________________ There are now three new levels of MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! Learn more. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 13:41:32 -0700 From: Earl Needham Subject: Re: roughening the rim At 01:16 PM 2/2/2004, Daniel Pliskin wrote: > >Other than repeatedly dropping my new mouthpiece in the sidewalk, to roughen >it up and other than gold plating the mouthpiece, does anyone know of a >semi-permanent way to make a mouthpiece feel a bit rougher? You might try having it replated with a SATIN finish instead of a mirror finish. Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB, Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk KD5XB-2>APW251,PCSAT-1%:=3425.83N/10313.55W-PHG7150/WinAPRS 2.5.1 -EARL_CLOVIS -251-<630> SETI@Home: 11333WU/7.35yrs ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 15:48:08 -0500 From: richard.bartkus@COX.NET Subject: To F-attach or not to F-attach I have a Getzen 3047 that I use for symphonic work but occasionally select it for jazz if it's a "mellow" set because I love the tone I get with it. Especially when playing against a Flugelhorn or ballads (redundancy intended). I am seriously considering acquiring a neckpipe section without the valve. The horn blows very freely with the Thayer so I am conjecting that the only reason is that I am "mentally" tweaked about playing jazz/pop with an F-attachment. It's not my intention to start a thread about "you can't play jazz with a trigger", but I would like to know if anyone on the list is using a non F attachment configuration on a 3047 (or the Edwards equiv) and any advice or recommendations. Thanks in advance Richard Bartkus Mission Viejo, California ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 13:33:48 -0800 From: Chris Tune Subject: Re: To F-attach or not to F-attach I'd certainly try to get mentally "untweaked" about it, since it seems too much money to lay out just to get this particular playing situation turned "ideal". I'd think this is only good for small group jazz (i.e. you, the flugel player and a reed player playing with rhythm). If you are showing for a big band, please have a smaller piece of equipment ready. It's getting to be a problem when I show up to big bands these days. Every once in a while a guy is sitting second on the jazz chair and lo' there he is pumping out jazz with an enormous "cannon" like a King 4B, 88H or Bach 42. The rest of us tenor players are on .500 bore or smaller! The section doesn't blend. Sure, "it's a free country" and all. . .but usually the player has a beautiful .500 bore horn or smaller, sitting at home. . .yeesh! [there is also one very good player in L.A. who always, always plays an 8H he got from his dad. . .nobody is trying to change him anymore. . .] There are reasons players choose large bore for symphony and small bore for jazz band. The best is that there is a proper blend with the section mates. Or maybe better is that four sets with a King 2B or 2B+ will be much easier to handle than a horn ten percent larger. In an orchestra where "dark" sound is prized, and the playing stamina demands are less, a .547 bore is just fine for most settings. Sometimes in earlier works, an orchestra section will use smaller and perhaps alto on top (e.g. Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert). Chris Tune ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 12:48 PM Subject: [TBN-L] To F-attach or not to F-attach > I have a Getzen 3047 that I use for symphonic work but occasionally select it for jazz if it's a "mellow" set because I love the tone I get with it. Especially when playing against a Flugelhorn or ballads (redundancy intended). I am seriously considering acquiring a neckpipe section without the valve. The horn blows very freely with the Thayer so I am conjecting that the only reason is that I am "mentally" tweaked about playing jazz/pop with an F-attachment. It's not my intention to start a thread about "you can't play jazz with a trigger", but I would like to know if anyone on the list is using a non F attachment configuration on a 3047 (or the Edwards equiv) and any advice or recommendations. > > Thanks in advance > > Richard Bartkus > Mission Viejo, California > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 15:46:34 -0600 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: To F-attach or not to F-attach -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Chris Tune Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 3:34 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] To F-attach or not to F-attach ---snip--- There are reasons players choose large bore for symphony and small bore for jazz band. The best is that there is a proper blend with the section mates. ---snip--- What if the whole section played .547s? Then they would blend with each other. Jeff (not trying to start a war, just poking at the theory a little) Albert ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 16:53:20 -0500 From: richard.bartkus@COX.NET Subject: Re: To F-attach or not to F-attach Thanks for the quick responses. Just to set things straight, this configuration is specifically for blowing small combo work and possibly some studio sessions if it seems approriate. I am blessed to have a 1961 King 3B that I use for big band and rock sessions and a 32H that I usually record with, when I am fortunate enough to get the "call". I really didn't mean to start the 547 jazz thread all over again, but it really depends on the sound you are going for. If I got a call to do 3rd for some of the Kenton psuedo-wagnerian pieces, then the 547 is definately appropriate, I would contend it might just be requisite . However, I would never choose it for Florence-style book or to select a specific chart, "Groove Merchant". It would be a bull in a china shop. Richard > > From: Chris Tune > Date: 2004/02/02 Mon PM 04:33:48 EST > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] To F-attach or not to F-attach > > I'd certainly try to get mentally "untweaked" about it, since it seems too > much money to lay out just to get this particular playing situation turned > "ideal". I'd think this is only good for small group jazz (i.e. you, the > flugel player and a reed player playing with rhythm). If you are showing for > a big band, please have a smaller piece of equipment ready. > > It's getting to be a problem when I show up to big bands these days. Every > once in a while a guy is sitting second on the jazz chair and lo' there he > is pumping out jazz with an enormous "cannon" like a King 4B, 88H or Bach > 42. The rest of us tenor players are on .500 bore or smaller! The section > doesn't blend. Sure, "it's a free country" and all. . .but usually the > player has a beautiful .500 bore horn or smaller, sitting at home. . .yeesh! > > [there is also one very good player in L.A. who always, always plays an 8H > he got from his dad. . .nobody is trying to change him anymore. . .] > > There are reasons players choose large bore for symphony and small bore for > jazz band. The best is that there is a proper blend with the section mates. > Or maybe better is that four sets with a King 2B or 2B+ will be much easier > to handle than a horn ten percent larger. In an orchestra where "dark" > sound is prized, and the playing stamina demands are less, a .547 bore is > just fine for most settings. Sometimes in earlier works, an orchestra > section will use smaller and perhaps alto on top (e.g. Mozart, Beethoven, > Schubert). > > Chris Tune > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 12:48 PM > Subject: [TBN-L] To F-attach or not to F-attach > > > > I have a Getzen 3047 that I use for symphonic work but occasionally select > it for jazz if it's a "mellow" set because I love the tone I get with it. > Especially when playing against a Flugelhorn or ballads (redundancy > intended). I am seriously considering acquiring a neckpipe section without > the valve. The horn blows very freely with the Thayer so I am conjecting > that the only reason is that I am "mentally" tweaked about playing jazz/pop > with an F-attachment. It's not my intention to start a thread about "you > can't play jazz with a trigger", but I would like to know if anyone on the > list is using a non F attachment configuration on a 3047 (or the Edwards > equiv) and any advice or recommendations. > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > Richard Bartkus > > Mission Viejo, California > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:21:17 -0800 From: Chris Tune Subject: Re: To F-attach or not to F-attach I knew you were too smart not to have a cool small bore axe too. Yeah! Florence stuff or basie or even the entire swing era. They ate, slept and lived smaller bore horns. The original and early Kenton section had all King 2Bs except our dearly departed Milt Berhart who played around using several different horns from time to time. All were small (he even had a Martin for a while). Of course, Bart Varsalona had a big horn . . . And regarding the section all using .547 bore horns. It would have a good blend. I'd just be "pi**ed" off because I was ridiculously tired at the end of those four or five sets. . . . It's one of those things where you'd ask yourself---"self. . .what did I do THAT for?" That 32H is useful too! I think that's the second horn Alan Kaplan keeps in his highly modified King "coffin" case. It's a dual bore, right? CT ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 1:53 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] To F-attach or not to F-attach > Thanks for the quick responses. > > Just to set things straight, this configuration is specifically for blowing small combo work and possibly some studio sessions if it seems approriate. I am blessed to have a 1961 King 3B that I use for big band and rock sessions and a 32H that I usually record with, when I am fortunate enough to get the "call". > > I really didn't mean to start the 547 jazz thread all over again, but it really depends on the sound you are going for. If I got a call to do 3rd for some of the Kenton psuedo-wagnerian pieces, then the 547 is definately appropriate, I would contend it might just be requisite . However, I would never choose it for Florence-style book or to select a specific chart, "Groove Merchant". It would be a bull in a china shop. > > Richard > > > > > > > From: Chris Tune > > Date: 2004/02/02 Mon PM 04:33:48 EST > > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] To F-attach or not to F-attach > > > > I'd certainly try to get mentally "untweaked" about it, since it seems too > > much money to lay out just to get this particular playing situation turned > > "ideal". I'd think this is only good for small group jazz (i.e. you, the > > flugel player and a reed player playing with rhythm). If you are showing for > > a big band, please have a smaller piece of equipment ready. > > > > It's getting to be a problem when I show up to big bands these days. Every > > once in a while a guy is sitting second on the jazz chair and lo' there he > > is pumping out jazz with an enormous "cannon" like a King 4B, 88H or Bach > > 42. The rest of us tenor players are on .500 bore or smaller! The section > > doesn't blend. Sure, "it's a free country" and all. . .but usually the > > player has a beautiful .500 bore horn or smaller, sitting at home. . .yeesh! > > > > [there is also one very good player in L.A. who always, always plays an 8H > > he got from his dad. . .nobody is trying to change him anymore. . .] > > > > There are reasons players choose large bore for symphony and small bore for > > jazz band. The best is that there is a proper blend with the section mates. > > Or maybe better is that four sets with a King 2B or 2B+ will be much easier > > to handle than a horn ten percent larger. In an orchestra where "dark" > > sound is prized, and the playing stamina demands are less, a .547 bore is > > just fine for most settings. Sometimes in earlier works, an orchestra > > section will use smaller and perhaps alto on top (e.g. Mozart, Beethoven, > > Schubert). > > > > Chris Tune > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 12:48 PM > > Subject: [TBN-L] To F-attach or not to F-attach > > > > > > > I have a Getzen 3047 that I use for symphonic work but occasionally select > > it for jazz if it's a "mellow" set because I love the tone I get with it. > > Especially when playing against a Flugelhorn or ballads (redundancy > > intended). I am seriously considering acquiring a neckpipe section without > > the valve. The horn blows very freely with the Thayer so I am conjecting > > that the only reason is that I am "mentally" tweaked about playing jazz/pop > > with an F-attachment. It's not my intention to start a thread about "you > > can't play jazz with a trigger", but I would like to know if anyone on the > > list is using a non F attachment configuration on a 3047 (or the Edwards > > equiv) and any advice or recommendations. > > > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > > > Richard Bartkus > > > Mission Viejo, California > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:57:46 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Trombone writing in Janacek --- Edward Solomon wrote: > I am > not aware of > any of his works which set a precedent by using four > trombones, nor of > any subsequent ones either. I seem to remember playing an oddball piece for solo left-hand piano, accompanied by flute, 4 or 5 or maybe even 6 trombones, and euphonium. I think it was called something like "Concertino" - anyway it had one of those uncommon but generic names, if you know what I mean. ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 23:01:31 -0000 From: Edward Solomon Subject: Re: Trombone writing in Janacek > I seem to remember playing an oddball piece for solo > left-hand piano, accompanied by flute, 4 or 5 or maybe even > 6 trombones, and euphonium. I think it was called something > like "Concertino" - anyway it had one of those uncommon but > generic names, if you know what I mean. You are thinking of the Capriccio for piano (left hand) and seven wind instruments, including three trombones and tenor tuba. There are, as aforementioned, only three trombones, though, the lowest of which has a pedal E flat in the part at one point. __________________________________________ Edward Solomon British Trombone Society Webmaster mailto:webmaster@trombone-society.org.uk Visit "The Trombonist Online" - the online magazine of the British Trombone Society http://www.trombone-society.org.uk __________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 16:03:51 -0700 From: Dennis Clason Subject: Re: To F-attach or not to F-attach ---snip--- There are reasons players choose large bore for symphony and small bore for jazz band. The best is that there is a proper blend with the section mates. ---snip--- What if the whole section played .547s? Then they would blend with each other. Jeff (not trying to start a war, just poking at the theory a little) Albert Overheard a long time ago at the Reno Jazz Festival. Dick Shearer was talking with someone I didn't recognize. The band that just came off had bone section consisting entirely of 42Bs. The other fellow said something to the effect of "don't those big trombones sound great", to which Shearer replied, "Sounds like goddam herd of euphoniums to me." It's tough to get a Shearer-like lead sound out of an orchestral horn. Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 18:05:37 -0500 From: Roger Hecht Subject: Re: Trombone writing in Janacek At 02:57 PM 2/2/2004 -0800, Gabriel Langfur wrote: >--- Edward Solomon wrote: > > I am > > not aware of > > any of his works which set a precedent by using four > > trombones, nor of > > any subsequent ones either. > >I seem to remember playing an oddball piece for solo >left-hand piano, accompanied by flute, 4 or 5 or maybe even >6 trombones, and euphonium. I think it was called something >like "Concertino" - anyway it had one of those uncommon but >generic names, if you know what I mean. Capriccio for pianol, flute, & brass Roger Hecht ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 16:10:01 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Trombone writing in Janacek --- Edward Solomon wrote: > You are thinking of the Capriccio for piano (left hand) > and seven wind > instruments, including three trombones and tenor tuba. > There are, as > aforementioned, only three trombones, though, the lowest > of which has a > pedal E flat in the part at one point. Yes, that's it. I remember the pedal E-flat. ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 00:13:04 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: To F-attach or not to F-attach Iāve certainly noticed how much more alive a straight trombone, than one with an attachment, but there are things you can do to your present trombone and keep the attachment, too. To get a more lively sound: Change your mouthpiece Change lead pipes Strip the finish off of the bell flare Remove unneeded cross-braces from the F section Use a different trombone DanP _________________________________________________________________ High-speed users÷be more efficient online with the new MSN Premium Internet Software. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 17:41:55 -0800 From: alex iles Subject: Re: To F-attach or not to F-attach Daniel Pliskin wrote: > To get a more lively sound: > > Change your mouthpiece > > Change lead pipes > > Strip the finish off of the bell flare > > Remove unneeded cross-braces from the F section > > Use a different trombone How about....LISTENING AND PRACTICING?!? Alex ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 19:26:07 -0600 From: Bill Dinwiddie Subject: Big Bore Rant To me, the whole argument about whether to play a large bore instrument = in a jazz band on the 1st, 2nd or 3rd parts, is this: the .547 bore horn = will not be heard by the audience. It will also not be heard by the lead = trombone player who would like to have some support while he is busting = his butt up there on the high Cs and Ds and even higher. Whenever I have = had the misfortune to play lead in a section where the 2nd or 3rd player = is playing a big bore horn, I have always felt like there was a big hole = in the arrangement above which I was forced to float. If you are going = to bring your big horn to a gig to play 2nd or 3rd, maybe you should = think about what the lead player has to deal with, or better yet...YOU = play the lead on a few charts while other people play the big horns = underneath you, and you will shortly find out what I mean.=20 Having the entire section playing big horns makes even less sense. There = is already an enormous gulf between the trumpets and the average small = bore trombone section. Trying to blend with the often overly brilliant = trumpets can be difficult. I believe that the best bands have an overall = blend of the entire brass section, not just within the bone section. = Increasing the tonal distance between the big bore trombones and the = increasingly bright trumpets is, to me, a disservice to the arranger, = the audience and the other players in the band.=20 The trombone section is already operating at a loss, because the bass = trombone often gets lost when he is not written in the lower register, = so a four note closed voicing usually sounds more like a three note = voicing. We have collectively decided to make this sacrifice, because = the bass bone give us such great sound when the bones are written in = open position, such as in many of the best Kenton charts. When the tempo = is fast and the voicings tighten up, the small bore horn is really the = only horn that will keep up with the drums and the trumpets both tonally = and rhythmically. I hate to say it, but most trombonists who play large = horns tend to drag. In fact, many small bore players tend to drag. It is = a problem with the trombone that everyone needs to fight on anything = above a medium tempo.=20 By the way, I think the Conn 32H is a wonderful horn for 2nd or 3rd. I = have a lovely one and it produces a marvelous sound. I just wish it was = made a little bigger in the grip department. My hand really gets cramped = when holding that horn and my hands are not particularly large.=20 Thanks for listening to my rant. Now it is someone else's turn. Bill Dinwiddie billdin@comcast.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 01:28:59 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: To F-attach or not to F-attach > >Daniel Pliskin wrote: > > > To get a more lively sound: > > > > Change your mouthpiece > > > > Change lead pipes > > > > Strip the finish off of the bell flare > > > > Remove unneeded cross-braces from the F section > > > > Use a different trombone > >How about....LISTENING AND PRACTICING?!? Alex, President Bush would be really displeased with that kind of answer. Surely you buy into his logic, that if we just keep on spending, everything will be OK. DanP PS. And as for practicing until you get the sound you want, thereās GOT to be a magic pill that will make your sound however you want it, right now. Short of that, itās obviously time to go out shopping for new equipment. _________________________________________________________________ Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up ÷ fast & reliable Internet access with prime features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 02:13:07 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Big Bore Rant >By the way, I think the Conn 32H is a wonderful horn for 2nd or 3rd. I have >a lovely one and it produces a marvelous sound. I just wish it was made a >little bigger in the grip department. My hand really gets cramped when >holding that horn and my hands are not particularly large. Bill, Build that grip up a bit, and it should be more comfortable. I often put a piece of rubber tubing over the cross-member, where my thumb goes. I split it down its length, and just put it on. If that doesnāt do it, put a one-inch piece of rubber tubing over the nut, which screws the slide section to the bell section. If that still doesnāt do it, use a short nylon strap. Figure out a wrap that incorporates going around the cross-member where your left-hand fingers go, around the cross-member, where your left-hand thumb goes and around the bell. With the strap, you should be able to make a shape thatās easy to hold on to and that gives your hand enough to hold on to, in order to alleviate that cramping hand. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up ÷ fast & reliable Internet access with prime features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:35:31 -0600 From: Bill Dinwiddie Subject: Re: Big Bore Rant Dan, Good suggestions. I will try them. Thanks. Bill D. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 21:36:28 -0500 From: Raymond Horton Subject: Re: Barber School of Scandal > Gabe Langfur asked: > > Quick rep question - are there trombones in Samuel Barber's Overture to the > School for Scandal? > >peter jarnebrant replied: > > Quick answer: Yes there are, played it last year. Don't remember details > about movements, parts etc. though. > > //Peter Jarnebrant > Ray Horton acts like a smart ass and says: It's an _overture_, so, uh, you'll find one movement is pretty standard. Three trombones and tuba on this piece, nothing special, nothing hard. Fairly short piece - nice, though. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:40:01 -0600 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: Big Bore Rant First let me say that I am not being argumentative just for sport, I am however playing devil's advocate and pointing to holes in logic in an attempt to make us all actually think about the dogma to which we subscribe. Secondly, I am playing a lot of improvised music and 4 horn rock section stuff on a Conn 88H/5GS right now, BUT I do have a 6H/11C setup that I use on the types of big band gigs that have been mentioned. Now to the discussion: It was stated: To me, the whole argument about whether to play a large bore instrument in a jazz band on the 1st, 2nd or 3rd parts, is this: the .547 bore horn will not be heard by the audience. It will also not be heard by the lead trombone player who would like to have some support while he is busting his butt up there on the high Cs and Ds and even higher. ====================================== Then why can the audience and section mates in a symphony hear those big horns? I understand that amplified rhythm sections and ringing cymbals take up some aural space, but so do 50 strings and tympani, and many people complain that those large bore trombones can be heard TOO well. If you say the sound is wrong that is a taste issue, but to say they can't be heard doesn't seem to hold up to my experience or the laws of acoustics. It was later stated: When the tempo is fast and the voicings tighten up, the small bore horn is really the only horn that will keep up with the drums and the trumpets both tonally and rhythmically. I hate to say it, but most trombonists who play large horns tend to drag. In fact, many small bore players tend to drag. It is a problem with the trombone that everyone needs to fight on anything above a medium tempo. ================================================= So you are saying that the size of the horn is irrelevant to rhythmic accuracy because you state that "In fact, many small bore players tend to drag. It is a problem with the trombone that EVERYONE (my emphasis) needs to fight on anything above a medium tempo." There are a couple of recent big band recordings that have entire sections playing large bore horns. The new Dave Holland Big Band CD, and the Dizzy Gillespie Alumni Band CD. I don't think these sections sound odd at all. I do agree that in more repertory style bands that smaller gear usually sounds more appropriate, but I think we are entering dangerous territory when we start to dismiss gear choices out of hand with out considering the musical situation. To say that playing third in a big band on a .547 is just wrong, is like saying that you should never play a first trombone part in an orchestra on a .500. While not the norm, both of those gear choices might be the most musical in certain situations. We should remain open to those possibilities. The funny thing is, the question that started all of this had nothing to do with big band, and was about small group jazz playing... Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 23:15:38 -0600 From: Bill Dinwiddie Subject: Re: Big Bore Rant I must say that Jeff certainly has stated some logical things: that big = horns have no trouble being heard in orchestral situations, that, under = certain circumstances, the sound of a big horn may be preferable to that = of a small one, that some new bands are using sections of big horns. I = do not dispute these points, but I must say that my observations are = based on my personal experience. I have yet to experience a situation in = which I felt that a big horn consistently worked better than a small = horn on 2nd or 3rd parts when a small horn was playing the lead part. I = have never worked in a section of all big horns, so I will not make any = judgement on that situation. It just doesn't make any sense to me, = personally, in the "normal" big jazz band. Certainly there must be = situations where it will work, and the bands that Jeff mentioned are = undoubtedly those kinds of situations. I have not heard these bands, but = I look forward to doing so.=20 I must admit a certain prejudice. I'm a small horn guy. Played them all = my life in many different situations. I have never been or pretended to = be an orchestral player, although I studied with the best of them. I = would never even attempt to sit in an orchestral section with my Bach = 16M or even my Conn 32H. I can fully understand why section mates = playing big horns in an orchestra setting would be less than happy if I = showed up with my "pea shooter", and it is not just a matter of concept. = They would be justified in their unhappiness based on the sound that = they are used to hearing. To them - the big horn is the right sound. As to the rhythmic (dragging) problems that I have observed with larger = horns, I agree that there must exist players who have conquered this = problem. I just have not met many. The problem is certainly a common one = and probably lies more with the "hornee" than the horn. But, I suspect = that it is more likely that a person playing a big horn will drag, than = if the same person were playing a small horn.=20 One almost never encounters a situation in the average big jazz band = where a B-flat trumpet is playing the lead part and three flugelhorns = are playing the remaining parts (except in a situation where the = arranger is going for a real color difference, often in ballads). In = most writing situations, this type of "trumpet section" would not work = very well. Arrangers know this and tend to avoid writing this way. I = submit that a similar situation exists with trombones. Three small horns = and a bass trombone works in the standard jazz band musical situation.=20 In closing, I certainly agree with Jeff that the musical situation must = govern the decision of what type of instrument to play, and that = generalizing can be dangerous.=20 Generally yours,=20 Bill Dinwiddie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 23:45:00 -0600 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: Big Bore Rant One almost never encounters a situation in the average big jazz band where a B-flat trumpet is playing the lead part and three flugelhorns are playing the remaining parts (except in a situation where the arranger is going for a real color difference, often in ballads). In most writing situations, this type of "trumpet section" would not work very well. ============================================================= That's an interesting point, because trumpets vary in bore size as well. I've seen bores listed from .445 to .470 for trumpets. That's about a 6% difference. .500 to .547 is about a 9% difference. Do trumpet players have these issues? Are there certain bore sizes that are preferable for certain styles? The .470 that I saw is the Callet "Jazz" model. Hmmmmmmm... Jeff PS I want to say that I agree with the things Bill said in his last post. I don't mean this to be an argument with him or anyone else, just to spur some thought and conversation maybe. ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 1 Feb 2004 to 2 Feb 2004 (#2004-34) **************************************************************