Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 30 Jan 2004 to 31 Jan 2004 (#2004-32) Date: Sunday, February 1, 2004 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 8 messages totalling 403 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Works for Alto, Tenor, and Bass Trombone 2. Trombone writing in Janacek (4) 3. Some sad news 4. FW: Frank Mantooth (re: Some sad news) 5. New CD ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 01:39:44 EST From: JFBermann@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Works for Alto, Tenor, and Bass Trombone Matt, The Chicago Symphony has comissioned Christian Lindberg to write a piece for Charlie Vernon to be performed in the 2006 season I believe. It was Lindberg's idea to have each movement feature Vernon on a different instrument. Jim Bermann ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 08:39:40 -0000 From: David Musgrove Subject: Re: Trombone writing in Janacek Man there must be some odd editions of this piece flying around. I agree that these notes would sound pretty odd on a tuba, which is why they aren't in the bottom part - 1st and 2nd in unison, 3rd on his/her own. Even in the edition that introduced the copyist's error, the second movement was three trombones and tuba, with Trombone IV tacet. David Musgrove Bass Trombone -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Raymond Horton Sent: 31 January 2004 03:22 To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Trombone writing in Janacek But the second movement is clearly four trombones, correct? The running, muted, eighth notes - 1st and 2nd trbs in unison vs. 3rd and 4th in unison. It would not work well with tuba subbing for the latter. Like I guessed, 4th and tuba were meant as a double? If 4th trombone was a bass valve trombone (Bb 4 valve) it would, conceivably, have been an easy double to tuba. I have neither a score nor parts near me now, and I can't run down the rest of the work in my head to think of the sequence of 4th trombone / tuba writing, but the 2nd movement is quite vivid in my memory. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist Louisville Orchestra ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Musgrove" To: Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 1:53 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Trombone writing in Janacek > My understanding was always that the fourth trombone part in Sinfonietta was > simply a copyist's error, and that Janacek wanted three trombones and tuba. > The old edition with this part had either tuba or fourth trombone in each of > the five movements, and they never played together. The piece ended with the > fourth trombone blaring out low Ds or D flats at the bottom of a brass > section of over twenty, whilst the tuba player disappeared to get the beers > in (or whatever tuba players do at the ends of concerts). > > The fourth part was great fun to play, but it seems pretty clear that it is > a tuba part (you can try and sound as big as you like playing the low D flat > and pedal G flat entry, but it will only ever sound really right on a tuba). > > David Musgrove > Bass Trombone > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 16:49:36 +0100 From: Howard Weiner Subject: Re: Trombone writing in Janacek At 22:21 30.01.04 -0500, Raymond Horton wrote: >But the second movement is clearly four trombones, correct? The running, >muted, eighth notes - 1st and 2nd trbs in unison vs. 3rd and 4th in unison. >It would not work well with tuba subbing for the latter. Like I guessed, >4th and tuba were meant as a double? If 4th trombone was a bass valve >trombone (Bb 4 valve) it would, conceivably, have been an easy double to >tuba. > >I have neither a score nor parts near me now, and I can't run down the rest >of the work in my head to think of the sequence of 4th trombone / tuba >writing, but the 2nd movement is quite vivid in my memory. I was too busy to jump in on this thread earlier, but now I've found time to track down a posting I sent to the list a year and a half ago when this subject last came up. It was originally in answer to a posting by Edward Solomon (Hi Ed!) Thank you for bringing this to our attention. This is very interesting, but I think that it is a bit more complicated than it seems at first glance and that the confusion is not just the copyist's fault. I have the feeling that Janacek was not quite sure what he really wanted, or rather that he wanted different things at different times. I was just at the library, but unfortunately the Janacek Collected Works does not seem to include the Sinfonietta as yet. I did however find a pocket score, which contains the following information: Sources: 1. autograph score 2. engraving score, copied from the autograph under the composer's supervision and containing corrections in his own hand Moreover, the editor of the edition wrote: "In many pasages the autograph manuscript prescribes "4 Poz." (trombones), sometimes also "Tuba" (e.g. mvt. III, 4 before [4] and 5 before [12]: "Poz. 1/2/3; Tuba"); from mvt. IV onwards only the markings "4 Poz." or simply "Poz." occur. It is possible but not certain that Janacek meant the same by the markings "Poz. 1/2/3, Tuba" and "4 Poz." Since the authentic copy [engraving score] decides in favour of "4 trombones and tuba", the present edition follows this source -- as the first edition did." From this it seems clear that the confusion stems directly from Janacek. Moreover, he either did not find fault with the copyist's decisions concerning the trombones and tuba or he did not notice what the copyist had done, otherwise he would have made the necessary corrections in the engraving score. Theoretically (and economically) there is no real need for a 4th trombone. Yet when I look at the music, I find passages that probably sound better with 4 trombones than with 3 trombones and tuba, for example, almost all of the 2nd movement and the first 62 measures of the 5th. Be that as it may, I don't know what is "correct" here, and I don't think that's something we'll ever know for sure, but I'm looking forward to hearing the revised, 3-trombone version. BTW, you wrote "Anyway, anything that's marked fourth trombone is supposed to be tuba." This is not quite true. There are a couple passages where trombones 2,3,4 (or 1,3,4) and tuba are playing together, so that sections of the 4th trombone part would have to be reassigned to the 3rd trombone, and consequently sections of the 3rd trombone part to the 2nd, etc. Howard -- Howard Weiner weiner@privat.toplink.de http://www.odilia.ch/howard-weiner If vegetarians eat only vegetables, what do humanitarians eat? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 12:27:55 -0600 From: Bill Dinwiddie Subject: Some sad news I very much regret having to forward this sad news to all of you. I am = not sure on what date this occurred, I first heard the news on the = evening of Jan. 30, but if I get more details, I will pass them along. I = think he was only 57. I'm sure most of you are familiar with Frank's = work, but for those who have not encountered him, he was a tremendous = composing and arranging talent as well as a marvelous keyboard player. = He was also a superb educator and a beautiful person. Bill Dinwiddie billdin@comcast.net=20 *************************************************************************= **********************************=20 Forward from Jim Warrick: It is with great sadness that I pass along the news that our dearly = beloved Frank Mantooth, jazz composer and arranger, passed away of a = heart attack this morning (between 10 and 11 AM) at his home in Garden = City, Kansas.=20 Jim Warrick Coordinator of Jazz Studies New Trier High School 385 Winnetka Ave. Winnetka, IL 60093 Office: 847-784-6701 Fax: 425-671-3902 Cell: 630-479-0001 New Trier Jazz Studies website: http://ntjazz.com Warrick email addresses: jwarrick@ntjazz.com Director of Wheaton College Symphonic Band Symphonic Band website: http://wcsband.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 13:07:48 -0600 From: "Brandon C. Moodie" Subject: FW: Frank Mantooth (re: Some sad news) Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 12:03 PM Subject: Frank Mantooth Dear music community, I talked this morning with Carrie Mantooth who confirmed that her husband, contemporary jazz composer Frank Mantooth, passed away Friday of a heart attack. Visitation will be Tuesday in Garden City, Kansas. Besides perpetuating America's jazz heritage with modern big band arrangements, Tooth was also a very nice man. He will be missed by many. Correspondence can be sent to: Carrie Mantooth 2010 Henderson Drive Garden City, Kansas 67846 Regards, Bill O'Connell =============================== > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. > [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Bill Dinwiddie > Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 12:28 PM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: [TBN-L] Some sad news > > > I very much regret having to forward this sad news to all of you. > I am not sure on what date this occurred, I first heard the news > on the evening of Jan. 30, but if I get more details, I will pass > them along. I think he was only 57. I'm sure most of you are > familiar with Frank's work, but for those who have not > encountered him, he was a tremendous composing and arranging > talent as well as a marvelous keyboard player. He was also a > superb educator and a beautiful person. > > Bill Dinwiddie > billdin@comcast.net > > ****************************************************************** > ***************************************** > > > Forward from Jim Warrick: > > It is with great sadness that I pass along the news that our > dearly beloved Frank Mantooth, jazz composer and arranger, passed > away of a heart attack this morning (between 10 and 11 AM) at his > home in Garden City, Kansas. > > Jim Warrick > Coordinator of Jazz Studies > New Trier High School > 385 Winnetka Ave. Winnetka, IL 60093 > Office: 847-784-6701 Fax: 425-671-3902 > Cell: 630-479-0001 > > New Trier Jazz Studies website: http://ntjazz.com > Warrick email addresses: jwarrick@ntjazz.com > Director of Wheaton College Symphonic Band > Symphonic Band website: http://wcsband.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 15:13:57 -0500 From: Roger Hecht Subject: Re: Trombone writing in Janacek Howard Weiner >Thank you for bringing this to our attention. This is very interesting, but >I think that it is a bit more complicated than it seems at first glance and >that the confusion is not just the copyist's fault. I have the feeling that >Janacek was not quite sure what he really wanted, or rather that he wanted >different things at different times. I cannot address the question of trombones in Sinfonietta specifically. But for those interested in editions and intentions, Janacek is a nightmare. The last sentence above explains some of the problems. He was also not the neatest notator and to make things worse, he had students and editors who often "helped" him. Many recordings of Janacek's operas have taken on the issue of editions. Charles Mackerras is the best known of the conductors who have dealt with the matter, but he is not alone, and who knows if even Mackerrass' is always right? Nor do the difficulties do not step from the same reasons. Janacek never finished From the House of the Dead--or so it is thought, and this represents the confusion there. Was he finished or were those who edited the manuscript correct in filling in gaps. With Jenufa, conductor Karel Kovarovic insisted on his changes before he agreed to perform the opera in Prague. Desperate for such performance, Janacek agreed. Changes to the Mass were the result of his desire to make a very difficult score easier to perform. In all these cases, Mackerras has attempted to go back to the composer's original (but in the case of the Mass, only in his Chandos recording; the Supraphon is of the standard version). Janacek's biographer Vogel, in a fascinating chapter on performing Janacek, explains why many of Janacek's viola lines are not marked "con sordino" while the other strings are. Janacek came to prefer the viola d'amore and scored for it in many works. Because the viola d'amore has a softer voice than the viola, he held back the "con sordino" mark. This chapter is full of examples of this kind of thing, including Janacek's giving a conductor like Ostercil the right to "fix" orchestrations in Broucek. Finally, Vogel notes elsewhere that Janacek's very low writing in some trombone parts stems from the presence of a bass trombonist at the Brno opera who had great low chops. And so it goes. Roger Hecht ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 14:24:53 -0700 From: Frank Darmiento Subject: New CD I guess itâs my turn for shameless self-promotion. My new jazz CD ăSudden Impactä is now out on the Summit Records label. It features me on alto & tenor trombones with a 3-piece (piano, bass, & drums) rhythm section. (I play alto on track 10 for anyone searching for it÷although it is labeled on the CD.) There are six of my originals plus five standards on the recording. Itâs available from Summit Records at: www.summitrecords.com For additional information about the CD (not in the liner notes) go to my web site at www.SackbutMusic.com. If you really want to hear sound clips youâll have to go to the Amazon or Tower Records web sites. Summit doesnât have any loaded yet, but there are some on the Amazon & Tower Records sites. P.S. For those who like warehouse store shopping contact me for a discounted price on a box of 25 CDs!!! :) -- Frank T. Darmiento Scottsdale, Arizona frank@darmiento.com www.SackbutMusic.com --------------------------- Frank Darmientoâs new CD "Sudden Impact" is now available from Summit Records at: http://www.summitrecords.com/product.tmpl?SKU=339 -- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 16:29:43 -0500 From: Raymond Horton Subject: Re: Trombone writing in Janacek re: Sinfonietta ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Howard Weiner" > At 22:21 30.01.04 -0500, Raymond Horton wrote: ... > BTW, you wrote "Anyway, anything that's marked fourth trombone is = supposed > to be tuba." This is not quite true. There are a couple passages where > trombones 2,3,4 (or 1,3,4) and tuba are playing together, so that = sections > of the 4th trombone part would have to be reassigned to the 3rd = trombone, > and consequently sections of the 3rd trombone part to the 2nd, etc. Someone else may have said that, but not I. I did make the point that = all five instruments do not play at the same time, except in one passage = where 3, 4 and tuba needlessly triple the bass line. Someone else also made = the point that the last movement 4th trombone part might make more sense on tuba. Thanks for the information. Ray Horton ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 30 Jan 2004 to 31 Jan 2004 (#2004-32) ****************************************************************