Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 23 Jan 2004 to 24 Jan 2004 (#2004-25) Date: Sunday, January 25, 2004 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 9 messages totalling 308 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Ever wondered? 2. Slide measurement data 3. Trombone or not trombone - that is the question! (7) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 10:35:27 -0800 From: Frank Doting Subject: Ever wondered? Ever wondered about the weights of outer slides? Bach 6 with lightweight slide 5.5 Oz. Bach 16 regular 8 Bach 36 regular 9 Olds P22 bass 10 Conn 73H 10 If you have not wondered, that is OK Regards, Grass Valley Frank ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 11:33:39 -0800 From: Frank Doting Subject: Slide measurement data Some slide measurements I have made over the past year: Trombone slide measurements: 1) Parallelism - measurement of how parallel the outer tubes are. (+) means the top of the outer slide is wider than the crook. 2) Centering - measurement of how well the inner and outer slide tubes are mounted on the same center distance at the top of the slide. (+) means the inner slide tubes are on wider than the top tubes of the outer slide. Trombone Parallelism Centering Bach 36BO -3 -3 Bach 16 +5 +7 Olds P22 +5 +1 King 5B -8 -5 Conn valve 0 -10 Bach 6 -28 -7 Conn bass -12 -9 Tony bass -86 +2 Beuescher +3 0 Besson +1 +5 Tony bass 0 +13 Conn 6H? -13 -18 Holton colleg. -26 +2 King 2B +1 +2 Yamaha 354#1 +8 -6 Yamaha 354#2 +4 -6 Olds Recorder -13 -7 Conn 88H -1 -6 Olds Ambass. 0 -8 Olds Super -4 +6 Conn Dir. -2 -2 Omega +8 +10 Gary Conn dir. +5 +10 Karner Yamaha -6 -2 Don Bach 12 +1 +4 Jack Strickler +10 -16 Notes: 1) All measurements in thousandths 2) Tony bass measured twice - before/after repair 3) The Bach 6 is an example of poor parallelism but still having fairly good action because of good centering and flexibility of the inner slide. 4) Parallelism is measured on the small diameter of the outer tubes; sometimes the sleeves are quite long and the measurement does not reflect the real worst case. I was reluctant to measure parallelism using the top sleeves of the outer slide tubes because of possible distortion caused by soldering the brace. 5) For those who wonder, the Conn valve horn had both a valve and slide assembly. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 20:31:13 -0000 From: Keith Marr Subject: Trombone or not trombone - that is the question! Hi folks Can someone tell me if there's trombone parts in the following pieces? Rossini - Messa di Gloria Elgar - The Music Makers R Strauss - Horn Concerto No. 1 Also you could perhaps settle an argument for me - Mahler's first symphony needs four trombones doesn't it? Thanks Keith in Bb/F/D --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.561 / Virus Database: 353 - Release Date: 13/01/2004 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 14:15:28 -0700 From: Al MacDonald Subject: Re: Trombone or not trombone - that is the question! The Schirmer catalog lists "Music Makers as: Contralto; SATB chorus; 3333/4331/timp.2perc/org.2hp/str so yes, 3 trombones and tuba (and a whole lot of other noise) Messe di Gloria is: Mixed Chorus; SATB; 3222/2231/timp/str (3 trombones, tuba) by the way, Messe di Gloria is Puccini, not Rossini The Strauss Horn Concerti both are listed in the Daniels book as 2 2 2 2 - 2 2 0 0 - tmp - str (i.e. no trombones or tuba) Al MacDonald AGR Technology, Inc. Events Occur in Real Time KM> Hi folks KM> Can someone tell me if there's trombone parts in the following pieces? KM> Rossini - Messa di Gloria KM> Elgar - The Music Makers KM> R Strauss - Horn Concerto No. 1 KM> Also you could perhaps settle an argument for me - Mahler's first symphony KM> needs four trombones doesn't it? KM> Thanks KM> Keith in Bb/F/D KM> --- KM> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. KM> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). KM> Version: 6.0.561 / Virus Database: 353 - Release Date: 13/01/2004 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 16:41:22 -0500 From: Bruce Guttman Subject: Re: Trombone or not trombone - that is the question! Message text written by Keith Marr >Also you could perhaps settle an argument for me - Mahler's first symphony needs four trombones doesn't it? < I don't know about the other pieces, but when we played Mahler 1 it called for 3 trombones and tuba. I can't imagine the "Frere Jacques" solo in the 2nd movement played on a contra!! Of course we had to call every sub in the list to get the 8 horns: 7 plus one assistant ;-) Bruce Guttman Section Leader, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 15:18:14 -0700 From: Al MacDonald Subject: Re: Trombone or not trombone - that is the question! According to the Daniels book, 3 trombones plus tuba are required. However, there is a note that "A 5th trumpet and 4th trombone may be used in the last movement to strengthen the horns if necessary" So much for settling the argument. When I did it with a community orchestra last year we did not use the extra instruments. Al MacDonald AGR Technology Inc. Events Occur in Real Time BG> Message text written by Keith Marr >>Also you could perhaps settle an argument for me - Mahler's first symphony BG> needs four trombones doesn't it? BG> < BG> I don't know about the other pieces, but when we played Mahler 1 it called BG> for 3 trombones and tuba. I can't imagine the "Frere Jacques" solo in the BG> 2nd movement played on a contra!! Of course we had to call every sub in BG> the list to get the 8 horns: 7 plus one assistant ;-) BG> Bruce Guttman BG> Section Leader, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 18:37:29 -0500 From: Roger Hecht Subject: Re: Trombone or not trombone - that is the question! At 02:15 PM 1/24/2004 -0700, Al MacDonald wrote: >The Schirmer catalog lists "Music Makers as: >Contralto; SATB chorus; 3333/4331/timp.2perc/org.2hp/str >so yes, 3 trombones and tuba (and a whole lot of other noise) ACtually a wonderful work in which Elgar looks back on his life and his music. The reprise of Nimrod is extraordinarily touching. >Messe di Gloria is: >Mixed Chorus; SATB; 3222/2231/timp/str >(3 trombones, tuba) >by the way, Messe di Gloria is Puccini, not Rossini Yes, Puccini wrote a work by this name in 1880, but so did Rossini in 1820. The spelling is Messa for both. Roger Hecht ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 16:53:23 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Trombone or not trombone - that is the question! --- Keith Marr wrote: > Also you could perhaps settle an argument for me - > Mahler's first symphony > needs four trombones doesn't it? No. As someone else wrote, there's an optional fourth part which just doubles horn lines in the last movement. I was hired, and then un-hired (de-hired?), to play this part once. ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 19:18:20 -0700 From: James Scott Subject: Re: Trombone or not trombone - that is the question! Keith - I'm not sure about the Rossini or Elgar, but there are no trombones in the Strauss. As far as Mahler 1st goes, the answer is it depends. There are 3 trombone parts that are always required, and there' s at least one version w/optional trumpet and trombone to double the horns at the end. I've also seen a version that adds yet 2 more french horns instead of the trumpet and trombone. I had fun playing the optional part once when we combined with our local Youth Orchestra. Hope that helps! Jim Scott Keith Marr wrote: >Hi folks > >Can someone tell me if there's trombone parts in the following pieces? > >Rossini - Messa di Gloria >Elgar - The Music Makers >R Strauss - Horn Concerto No. 1 > >Also you could perhaps settle an argument for me - Mahler's first symphony >needs four trombones doesn't it? > >Thanks > >Keith in Bb/F/D > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.561 / Virus Database: 353 - Release Date: 13/01/2004 > > ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 23 Jan 2004 to 24 Jan 2004 (#2004-25) ****************************************************************