Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 14 Jan 2004 to 15 Jan 2004 (#2004-16) Date: Friday, January 16, 2004 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 20 messages totalling 629 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Where to buy horns (5) 2. dancing bone (4) 3. off topic was RE: [TBN-L] Where to buy horns (4) 4. Bean Counting (was RE: [TBN-L] Where to buy horns) (2) 5. Tribute to J.J. with no trombone? (4) 6. New Publication from Cherry Classics Music ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 07:25:55 -0500 From: Dale Cruse Subject: Re: Where to buy horns I don't want to take conversation away from D.J., but Paul's statement below drew my attention. While we may consider new trombones expensive for us, I think some perspective would be appropriate as well. As members of the orchestra go, we get off pretty cheap when we buy an instrument. Ask a string player how much that bow costs - never mind even the cost of the instrument. Ask our French horn pals how much their horns cost. Ask that tuba player. Maybe the bassoonist. Soon a clear picture emerges that we as trombone players don't have to spend nearly as much as many others do to get an absolutely top-line instrument. Suddenly life doesn't seem so bad. Best regards, Dale Cruse Director of Sales, S.E. Shires www.seshires.com Quality without compromise. Paul D. Kemp Jr. wrote: > Let's face the > facts: New horns are EXPENSIVE ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 08:48:27 -0500 From: Peter Collins & Sara Wilbur Subject: Re: Where to buy horns Hi Dale and list, And add to that the very cheap cost of basic maintenance. Again, ask a bassoon player how much they spend per year on maintaining their axe. I think the only players that spend less than us are the trumpets; but then how many horns do they have? Peter Collins Bass Trombone Hamilton Philharmonic Orchestra Dale Cruse wrote: > > I don't want to take conversation away from D.J., but Paul's statement > below drew my attention. > > While we may consider new trombones expensive for us, I think some > perspective would be appropriate as well. As members of the orchestra > go, we get off pretty cheap when we buy an instrument. Ask a string > player how much that bow costs - never mind even the cost of the > instrument. Ask our French horn pals how much their horns cost. Ask that > tuba player. Maybe the bassoonist. Soon a clear picture emerges that we > as trombone players don't have to spend nearly as much as many others do > to get an absolutely top-line instrument. > > Suddenly life doesn't seem so bad. > > Best regards, > > Dale Cruse > Director of Sales, S.E. Shires > www.seshires.com > Quality without compromise. > > Paul D. Kemp Jr. wrote: > > > Let's face the > > facts: New horns are EXPENSIVE ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 09:13:32 EST From: BITEensemble@AOL.COM Subject: dancing bone Couldn't resist passing this along - sorry ;-) http://www.thewb.com/Popups/Video/0,8204,136480,00.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 08:41:25 -0600 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: dancing bone Yeah, that's been bouncing around the web for a few weeks. Apparently the guy studied with Robin Eubanks at Oberlin, and has subbed on the Dave Holland Big band. Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of BITEensemble@AOL.COM Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 8:14 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] dancing bone Couldn't resist passing this along - sorry ;-) http://www.thewb.com/Popups/Video/0,8204,136480,00.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 09:38:50 EST From: SteveInside@AOL.COM Subject: Re: dancing bone In a message dated 15/01/04 14:15:15 GMT Standard Time, BITEensemble@AOL.COM writes: > http://www.thewb.com/Popups/Video/0,8204,136480,00.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ So *that's* where my practice routines are going wrong! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:43:33 -0500 From: "Paul D. Kemp Jr." Subject: Re: Where to buy horns Good points made by both Dale and Peter--I am married to a violist and her instrument was almost $9000, and to top it all off, a bow rehair done with first rate materials by a first rate craftsman can run $60 and up, and for full time orchestra players who play 4-5 or more hours every day, that does indeed get expensive. Yes, life in that regard isn't really all that bad for trombonists, and even the price charged for services by world class brass instrument repair shops is cheaper than ordinary string instrument repair shops. For instance---to remove the top off a string bass----$1500. I don't have any clue about the woodwind world, but I do know that those players are ususally extremely picky about who works on their horns, and those services don't come cheap either. I am not putting down what Steve Shires is doing, and I certainly am not putting trying to belittle in anyway what I witnessed at the Greenhoe shop. In the long run, shops like that are much cheaper than the local music store repair shop because of 2 factors: 1) As a consumer, you know that the work that comes out of that shop will be performed to the highest possible standard, and 2) Because of that, the other thing that you are really paying for is PIECE OF MIND. There is also the factor of knowing that those shops will be there for the duration in order to serve you in the future and also to guarantee their work that they have done in the past. There are many people that do not want to deal with used instruments---that's perfectly fine. I certainly don't mind playing on an instument that it is not brand spanking new, just like I don't mind driving a car that is a few years old. I've never owned a new car----let someone else take that depreciation. There's certainly nothing wrong with looking for value and just exercising old fashioned thriftiness. All I'm saying is that there are good values out there for the people that are willing to look for them. In the final analysis, as long as the instrument is made of first rate materials, and as long as it is set up properly, it is up to the player to produce music on it. To say that older instruments certainly were not made as well as the custom horns that are being made today, nah. There are 88H's and 42B's and 3B's and 2B's of yesteryears that may need to be taken apart and put back together again, and that certainly is much less expensive than a new Shires, Edwards, or Greenhoe instrument. There are certainly other alternatives if people are willing to explore them. Paul Kemp Chattanooga Symphony www.trbnplyr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Collins & Sara Wilbur" To: Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 8:48 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Where to buy horns > Hi Dale and list, > > And add to that the very cheap cost of basic maintenance. Again, ask a > bassoon player how much they spend per year on maintaining their axe. > > I think the only players that spend less than us are the trumpets; but > then how many horns do they have? > > Peter Collins > Bass Trombone > Hamilton Philharmonic Orchestra > > Dale Cruse wrote: > > > > I don't want to take conversation away from D.J., but Paul's statement > > below drew my attention. > > > > While we may consider new trombones expensive for us, I think some > > perspective would be appropriate as well. As members of the orchestra > > go, we get off pretty cheap when we buy an instrument. Ask a string > > player how much that bow costs - never mind even the cost of the > > instrument. Ask our French horn pals how much their horns cost. Ask that > > tuba player. Maybe the bassoonist. Soon a clear picture emerges that we > > as trombone players don't have to spend nearly as much as many others do > > to get an absolutely top-line instrument. > > > > Suddenly life doesn't seem so bad. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Dale Cruse > > Director of Sales, S.E. Shires > > www.seshires.com > > Quality without compromise. > > > > Paul D. Kemp Jr. wrote: > > > > > Let's face the > > > facts: New horns are EXPENSIVE > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 16:48:20 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Where to buy horns My student model English horn cost me $5000.00 and took me a couple of years to find. Had I fallen in lust with a pro-model, for a few thousand dollars more, I suppose I would have taken it instead. But, more than that, I need to carve my own ãmouthpiecesä and they last anywhere from a few minutes to a few months. And once a ãmouthpieceä goes bad, the instrument scarcely plays. So I have to keep several in the wings, just in case the one Iâm playing fails. And those sometimes fail, just from age and being soaked and dried. But throughout all this discussion, I started wondering if trombone players should be paid more money. How many viola players, for example, can count several hundred measures and come in at the right time? No one knows, because theyâre always sawing away. And before you belittle counting, as a secondary activity, how come bean counters make more money than measure counters? After all, you can also weigh beans. OK, OK, Iâll drink my morningâs caffeine and shut up now. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers! http://shopping.msn.com/softcontent/softcontent.aspx?scmId=1418 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:21:28 -0600 From: Jeff Albert Subject: off topic was RE: [TBN-L] Where to buy horns And before you belittle counting, as a secondary activity, how come bean counters make more money than measure counters? ========================================== Because the bean counters decide how much everyone else gets... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:59:28 -0700 From: Dennis Clason Subject: Bean Counting (was RE: [TBN-L] Where to buy horns) > But throughout all this discussion, I started wondering if > trombone players > should be paid more money. How many viola players, for example, can count > several hundred measures and come in at the right time? No one knows, > because theyâre always sawing away. And before you belittle > counting, as a > secondary activity, how come bean counters make more money than measure > counters? After all, you can also weigh beans. But, as one of my accountant colleagues has pointed out, refried beans are very hard to count... Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:10:41 -0800 From: Chris Tune Subject: Re: off topic was RE: [TBN-L] Where to buy horns Or stuff that is hard to do and a drag pays better than stuff that is fun to do and uplifting. . .never promised a rose garden. . . Chris Tune ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Albert" To: Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 9:21 AM Subject: [TBN-L] off topic was RE: [TBN-L] Where to buy horns > And before you belittle counting, as a > secondary activity, how come bean counters make more money than measure > counters? > ========================================== > > Because the bean counters decide how much everyone else gets... > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:12:13 -0800 From: Chris Tune Subject: Re: Bean Counting (was RE: [TBN-L] Where to buy horns) Obtain the average weight of a bean and weigh the refried bean concoction. Remove the weight of any additives such as oil or lard, and then divide the net weight by the value of the average bean. You will come up with a close approximation of the number of beans in the refritos. Chris Tune ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clason" To: Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 9:59 AM Subject: [TBN-L] Bean Counting (was RE: [TBN-L] Where to buy horns) > > But throughout all this discussion, I started wondering if > > trombone players > > should be paid more money. How many viola players, for example, can count > > several hundred measures and come in at the right time? No one knows, > > because they're always sawing away. And before you belittle > > counting, as a > > secondary activity, how come bean counters make more money than measure > > counters? After all, you can also weigh beans. > > But, as one of my accountant colleagues has pointed out, refried beans > are very hard to count... > > Dennis > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 12:36:47 -0600 From: Jeff Oien Subject: Re: Where to buy horns > 2) Because of that, the other thing that you are really paying for is PIECE > OF MIND. That would be good for me because I lost a few pieces along the way. Jeff Oien ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 13:57:25 -0800 From: Elliott Moxley Subject: Re: off topic was RE: [TBN-L] Where to buy horns If you can handle the occasional boredom, sometimes its nice to know that you get paid more per note than the viola players- Jeff Albert wrote: > And before you belittle counting, as a > secondary activity, how come bean counters make more money than measure > counters? > ========================================== > > Because the bean counters decide how much everyone else gets... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:04:36 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: off topic was RE: [TBN-L] Where to buy horns Iâve always played used trombones. But what intrigues me is the ability of easily replacing lead pipes and that only comes with relatively new (used) and new trombones. Besides, with all the options, now available with a new trombone, one could wait forever, to find a good, used trombone with the features one wanted. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Scope out the new MSN Plus Internet Software ÷ optimizes dial-up to the max! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/plus&ST=1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 16:33:50 -0500 From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" Subject: Tribute to J.J. with no trombone? I was reading the school paper and noted that there's a tribute to J.J. Johnson tonight at Bear's Place (popular local watering hole) by David Baker, et al... but no trombone. Is this the "riderless horse" theory of tribute ensemble? Carole Nowicke cnowicke@indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 17:07:57 -0500 From: DSlide13@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Tribute to J.J. with no trombone? Lincoln Center and Todd Barkan recently produced a Monk tribute featuring solo instrumental presentations of Monk's work, but no piano. It makes sense. Any pianist, or trombonist in the JJ scenario, would only be imitating the master. The could serve to reduce the impact of the tribute. To see a tribute to Jimmy Stewart, we don't necessarily need to see Rich Little doing an imitation of him. Just my thoughts....I think it's kind of refreshing. DG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 20:34:57 -0500 From: Dale Cruse Subject: Re: Tribute to J.J. with no trombone? Considering that David Baker and J.J. were both from Indianapolis and that David studied trombone with J.J., it makes perfect sense to me. And for those of you who never heard David Baker play trombone with George Russell's band (among others) treat yourself to some killin' playing. Dale Cruse (also originally from Indiana) Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science wrote: > I was reading the school paper and noted that there's a tribute to J.J. > Johnson tonight at Bear's Place (popular local watering hole) by David > Baker, et al... but no trombone. > > Is this the "riderless horse" theory of tribute ensemble? > > Carole Nowicke > cnowicke@indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:32:14 -0500 From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" Subject: Re: Tribute to J.J. with no trombone? On Thu, 15 Jan 2004, Dale Cruse wrote: > And for those of you who never heard David Baker play trombone with > George Russell's band (among others) treat yourself to some killin' playing. On *cello*. I think it'd be equally weird if it were a tribute to Casals with all the solos played on trombone. Carole Nowicke cnowicke@indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:57:09 -0800 From: emrose79 Subject: Re: dancing bone His slide never touched the stage!.. but he did crack on the last note.............. BITEensemble@AOL.COM wrote: >Couldn't resist passing this along - sorry ;-) > >http://www.thewb.com/Popups/Video/0,8204,136480,00.html > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:45:55 -0800 From: Gordon Cherry Subject: New Publication from Cherry Classics Music Cherry Classics Music announces a new publication of interest to all brass musicians: A STUDY IN MUSICAL INTONATION by CHRISTOPHER LEUBA This book was written in 1962 and is in its 4th revision. This latest edition (11th printing) is printed and published with permission of the author by Cherry Classics Music. Mr. Leuba's book offers the student, amateur and professional a detailed study of the "Science" of Intonation. The standard method of teaching intonation by the intuitive method is discussed and shown to be flawed. This book first addresses the physical and acoustic phenomena relating to the problems of Intonation and Tuning and then makes suggestions concerning the use of "mechanical aids" in training the musician's perception, and some practical applications. You may view or download a pdf sample of this book by clicking on the following link: A native of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, Mr. Leuba is a noted music performer, pedagogue and author. Having started playing the horn during his senior year in high school, Mr. Leuba went on to study with noted hornists Aubrey Brain and Philip Farkas. Mr. Leuba served two terms in the United States Army and later performed with the Minneapolis Symphony, eventually rising to principal horn. He served as principal horn with the Chicago Symphony under Fritz Reiner during the 1960-1962 seasons. He has also appeared with the Philharmonica Hungarica under the direction of Antal Dorati. During his extensive career, he has performed fourteen complete Wagner Ring cycles and appeared with Sarah Vaughan, Quincy Jones and the Bill Russo big band. Mr. Leuba taught at the University of Washington for eleven years, during which time he published several books on music performance. Mr. Leuba's A Study of Musical Intonation is highly regarded as a seminal work for teaching the principles of just intonation to musicians. His other publications include Rules of the Game, Phrasing Concepts and Dexterity Drills and are used by brass teachers around the country. He has been an invited clinician at the Annual Conference of The International Trombone Association at Belmont College. Mr. Leuba is presently in his 20th season as Principal Hornist with the Portland Opera in Portland, Oregon. This 40 page book bound with spiral binding may be ordered through Cherry Classics Music. Cost $10.00 US Shipping $ 3.00 US (North America) $5.00 US (Internationally) Total $13.00 US (Northe America $15.00 US (Internationally) Please mail payment by check or money order to: Cherry Classics Music 5462 Granville Street Vancovuer, BC V6M 3C3 CANADA (postage to Canada is $.60 from the US) or PayPal payment to the PayPal account of gcherry@Cherry-Classics.com or VISA/Mastercard payment by phone (604) 261-5454 Pacific Time. Sincerely, Gordon Cherry Cherry Classics Music Principal Trombone Vancouver Symphony ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 14 Jan 2004 to 15 Jan 2004 (#2004-16) ****************************************************************