Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 12 Jan 2004 to 13 Jan 2004 (#2004-14) Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 8 messages totalling 1347 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Vibrato? Yes, No or it depends. (2) 2. TROMBONE-L Digest - 11 Jan 2004 to 12 Jan 2004 (#2004-13) 3. Schmelzer (2) 4. Schmelzer trombones opinions) 5. Subscription Problem 6. Where to buy horns ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 11:35:51 -0800 From: Elliott Moxley Subject: Re: Vibrato? Yes, No or it depends. I was wondering about this the other day when I went to hear a Victorian Cornet Band concert. It was a group that puts a lot of time and effort into re-creating the authentic style of a late 19th century town band, right down to period instruments, and the director of the band has a Phd in Musicology. Anyways, there was a trombone solo in "Grand Selection from Carmen", and the trombonist used LOTS of slide vibrato - fast and very wide, at least a full position on either side of the note. I was surprised at this interpretation of an Operatic piece, was this the way Bizet intended for it to sound? To really know the "correct" way to perform pieces that were written before we had recording equipment, I suppose we would have to have a way of getting into the mind of the composer. Maybe we should lighten up a bit on Mark, his interpretation may be a valid one. Besides, how many of us would perform the piece on an alto sackbut, alongside a tenor and G-bass sackbut? Sue Mark & Ulrike Narins wrote: > I want to start a discussion of vibrato as it affects section playing. > Recently in a rehearsal of Beethoven 9 the subject of my vibrato came > up, not from the conductor or even my own section but a horn player. The > opinion was expressed that there should be no vibrato in the sound what > so ever. I honestly wasn't aware that I had much if any vibrato at all > but after exploring what I was doing, I discovered the following: I was > getting some movement of the sound directly off my diaphragm. I was not > trying to make a diaphragm vibrato, it's just natural. I'm a singer as > well and that's what diaphragms do-they undulate when your breath is > connected to it. > The other thing I noticed is that I was adding some lip vibrato > in addition to what my diaphragm was doing. I realized I did this for > two reasons-I don't like an absolutely straight sound and the lip > vibrato helped me hang on to the sustained high notes easier, I was > playing the alto part on a King 2B. I asked the conductor about it and > he didn't notice any vibrato-he was happy. I listened to a recording of > the performance and although I could hear that there was some movement > (undulation) in the air column while I was playing, it was very mild > and produced a sound that worked in context of the piece. > But now I'm paranoid about the whole concept and would > appreciate comments on vibrato or mild tone undulation (sub-vibrato) in > a section situation. As American trombonists have we sworn off anything > remotely resembling vibrato when playing in an symphonic orchestra > section?? > > When I was in Emory Remington's trombone choir I don't remember the > subject of vibrato coming up per say but I don't believe we played with > a totally straight tone. Please correct me fellow former choir members. > Solo voices in the choir did use what I call an undulating sub-vibrato. > So what do people have to say on this subject. > > Mark > ______________________ > Mark Narins > Phone: (415) 928-7464 > email: narins@pacbell.net > ______________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 10:42:49 -0800 From: Peter Anderson Subject: Re: TROMBONE-L Digest - 11 Jan 2004 to 12 Jan 2004 (#2004-13) There seems to be a full selection of Schmelzer trombones on Ebay currently. Does anyone have any expierience with Schmelzer horns? Thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Automatic digest processor" To: "Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests" Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 10:00 PM Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 11 Jan 2004 to 12 Jan 2004 (#2004-13) > There are 20 messages totalling 977 lines in this issue. > > Topics of the day: > > 1. Vibrato? Yes, No or it depends. (10) > 2. OTJ Classifieds Update - 1/12/04 > 3. Looking for Chad Yarborough > 4. TROMBONE-L Digest - 10 Jan 2004 to 11 Jan 2004 (#2004-12) (2) > 5. trombone & harp > 6. FS Conn 4h & old King > 7. bone & harp > 8. (Re) Introduction > 9. Welcome > 10. Lecture in Kalamazoo next week > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 22:57:41 -0800 > From: Mark & Ulrike Narins > Subject: Vibrato? Yes, No or it depends. > > I want to start a discussion of vibrato as it affects section playing. > Recently in a rehearsal of Beethoven 9 the subject of my vibrato came > up, not from the conductor or even my own section but a horn player. The > opinion was expressed that there should be no vibrato in the sound what > so ever. I honestly wasn't aware that I had much if any vibrato at all > but after exploring what I was doing, I discovered the following: I was > getting some movement of the sound directly off my diaphragm. I was not > trying to make a diaphragm vibrato, it's just natural. I'm a singer as > well and that's what diaphragms do-they undulate when your breath is > connected to it. > The other thing I noticed is that I was adding some lip vibrato > in addition to what my diaphragm was doing. I realized I did this for > two reasons-I don't like an absolutely straight sound and the lip > vibrato helped me hang on to the sustained high notes easier, I was > playing the alto part on a King 2B. I asked the conductor about it and > he didn't notice any vibrato-he was happy. I listened to a recording of > the performance and although I could hear that there was some movement > (undulation) in the air column while I was playing, it was very mild > and produced a sound that worked in context of the piece. > But now I'm paranoid about the whole concept and would > appreciate comments on vibrato or mild tone undulation (sub-vibrato) in > a section situation. As American trombonists have we sworn off anything > remotely resembling vibrato when playing in an symphonic orchestra > section?? > > When I was in Emory Remington's trombone choir I don't remember the > subject of vibrato coming up per say but I don't believe we played with > a totally straight tone. Please correct me fellow former choir members. > Solo voices in the choir did use what I call an undulating sub-vibrato. > So what do people have to say on this subject. > > > Mark > ______________________ > Mark Narins > Phone: (415) 928-7464 > email: narins@pacbell.net > ______________________ > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 06:56:00 -0600 > From: Chris Waage > Subject: OTJ Classifieds Update - 1/12/04 > > The Online Trombone Journal Classifieds > (http://www.trombone.org/classifieds) have been updated as of 6:56 AM CST on > January 12, 2004. > > - - - - - Thank you for using the OTJ Classifieds! - - - - - > > OTJ Classifieds Frequently Asked Questions > http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/faq.asp > > OTJ Gift Shoppe: > http://www.cafepress.com/cp/store/store.aspx?storeid=trombones > > If you have any questions or comments about the Online Trombone Journal > Classifieds, please contact me at chris@trombone.org. > > Chris Waage > > -- > Chris Waage, Associate Webmaster > The Online Trombone Journal > "A Website for Trombonists" > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:16:20 -0500 > From: John Burton > Subject: Re: Vibrato? Yes, No or it depends. > > I can't speak to trombone choirs, BUT.. How often do you see the violin > section (or other strings for that matter) pulling in the vibrato? How > 'bout the floots? > > No I'm not going to go so far as to say that "if they can, why can't I?", > BUT. It seems to me a bit of vibrato, be it lip'd, or the famous > hand-tremble, or from the diaphragm seems to be the accepted way of making > music. > > Shucks, even barbershop quartets use vibrato to enhance the sound! > > I believe a bit of vibrato enhances in the orchestral setting and use it > myself, tho not so much as to be annoying. In the jazz band? Well, pedal > notes and vibrato don't often go together... > > Naturally, your mileage may vary. > > Thanks! > > ~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~= > > john burton > Bach 50B3 > Bass Trombone, Charleston NeoPhonic Orchestra > South Charleston, West Virginia > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Trombones and related issues forum. > > [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark & Ulrike Narins > > Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 1:58 AM > > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > > Subject: [TBN-L] Vibrato? Yes, No or it depends. > > > > > > I want to start a discussion of vibrato as it affects section > > playing. Recently in a rehearsal of Beethoven 9 the subject > > of my vibrato came up, not from the conductor or even my own > > section but a horn player. The opinion was expressed that > > there should be no vibrato in the sound what so ever. I > > honestly wasn't aware that I had much if any vibrato at all > > but after exploring what I was doing, I discovered the > > following: I was getting some movement of the sound directly > > off my diaphragm. I was not trying to make a diaphragm > > vibrato, it's just natural. I'm a singer as well and that's > > what diaphragms do-they undulate when your breath is connected to it. > > The other thing I noticed is that I was adding some > > lip vibrato in addition to what my diaphragm was doing. I > > realized I did this for two reasons-I don't like an > > absolutely straight sound and the lip vibrato helped me hang > > on to the sustained high notes easier, I was playing the alto > > part on a King 2B. I asked the conductor about it and he > > didn't notice any vibrato-he was happy. I listened to a > > recording of the performance and although I could hear that > > there was some movement > > (undulation) in the air column while I was playing, it was > > very mild and produced a sound that worked in context of the piece. > > But now I'm paranoid about the whole concept and > > would appreciate comments on vibrato or mild tone undulation > > (sub-vibrato) in a section situation. As American trombonists > > have we sworn off anything remotely resembling vibrato when > > playing in an symphonic orchestra section?? > > > > When I was in Emory Remington's trombone choir I don't > > remember the subject of vibrato coming up per say but I don't > > believe we played with a totally straight tone. Please > > correct me fellow former choir members. Solo voices in the > > choir did use what I call an undulating sub-vibrato. So what > > do people have to say on this subject. > > > > > > Mark > > ______________________ > > Mark Narins > > Phone: (415) 928-7464 > > email: narins@pacbell.net > > ______________________ > > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:18:25 EST > From: Stephen Colley > Subject: Looking for Chad Yarborough > > Please email me! > > Thanks, > > Stephen Colley > www.tuneupsystems.com > 804-852-8219 > "Rhythm - Metronome. Intonation - TuneUp." > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:34:34 -0600 > From: "John.McVey" > Subject: Re: Vibrato? Yes, No or it depends. > > Speaking to my experience in Concert Bands, I have always believed that if > it is not indicated in the music, do not use excessive, if any, vibrato. If > vibrato is used in the section, everyone's vibrato style and speed should > match. > > Speaking to my section experience in jazz Swing Bands, the basic rule is > "Follow the Lead Bone". If he is using vibrato, try to match it exactly. > When he is not using vibrato, NEVER use it on your own. The exception, of > course, is when you are soloing, but that is not the subject here. > > John > > ------- Original Message -------- > From: "Mark & Ulrike Narins" > To: "TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU" > CC: > Subject: [TBN-L] Vibrato? Yes, No or it depends. > Date: 12/01/04 > > I want to start a discussion of vibrato as it affects section playing. > Recently in a rehearsal of Beethoven 9 the subject of my vibrato came > up, not from the conductor or even my own section but a horn player. The > opinion was expressed that there should be no vibrato in the sound what > so ever. I honestly wasn't aware that I had much if any vibrato at all > but after exploring what I was doing, I discovered the following: I was > getting some movement of the sound directly off my diaphragm. I was not > trying to make a diaphragm vibrato, it's just natural. I'm a singer as > well and that's what diaphragms do-they undulate when your breath is > connected to it. > The other thing I noticed is that I was adding some lip vibrato > in addition to what my diaphragm was doing. I realized I did this for > two reasons-I don't like an absolutely straight sound and the lip > vibrato helped me hang on to the sustained high notes easier, I was > playing the alto part on a King 2B. I asked the conductor about it and > he didn't notice any vibrato-he was happy. I listened to a recording of > the performance and although I could hear that there was some movement > (undulation) in the air column while I was playing, it was very mild > and produced a sound that worked in context of the piece. > But now I'm paranoid about the whole concept and would > appreciate comments on vibrato or mild tone undulation (sub-vibrato) in > a section situation. As American trombonists have we sworn off anything > remotely resembling vibrato when playing in an symphonic orchestra > section?? > > When I was in Emory Remington's trombone choir I don't remember the > subject of vibrato coming up per say but I don't believe we played with > a totally straight tone. Please correct me fellow former choir members. > Solo voices in the choir did use what I call an undulating sub-vibrato. > So what do people have to say on this subject. > > > Mark > ______________________ > Mark Narins > Phone: (415) 928-7464 > email: narins@pacbell.net > ______________________ > > _____________________________________________________________________ > This mail was sent by Cablespeed Webmail > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:40:09 -0500 > From: Bruce Guttman > Subject: Re: Vibrato? Yes, No or it depends. > > I think that a mild diaphragm vibrato or lip vibrato that is part of your > normal sound shouldn't be a problem. Even when they are trying to play > straight tones, the strings have some weak vibrato. Playing a wide slide > vibrato a-la Tommy Dorsey is definitely out of the question in an > orchestral setting. > > I remember seeing a promotional film made by King featuring Urbie Green. > He gave some tips on vibrato, including using a trombone choir where he > suiggested that the 3 lower voices should play as straight as possible and > the upper voice give a gentle vibrato to add some "life" to the sound. I > have often found this works; 4 trombones playing dead straight can be very > boring. And 4 with unmatched vibratos can be annoying. > > Just my 2 cents (or 2p to any Brits). > > Bruce Guttman > Section Leader, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra > Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:32:59 -0600 > From: Bob Koester > Subject: Re: Vibrato? Yes, No or it depends. > > Mark, > > Generally, I don't think using vibrato in section work or tutti playing in > an orchestral piece is appropriate particularly if you are playing an > interior part. Same goes for the majority of commercial playing. There are > some commercial applications where vibrato can work, but you really have to > know the style as well as the other player or players so your vibratos match > up. Again, in any event, the vibrato style should not be set from an > interior part. > > Years ago I had a very good friend who was a good trombone player and a > wonderful singer. Like you, he battled the conceptual difference between > what the voice does and what playing a brass instrument does. Over time, he > resolved it for himself by working diligently on separating the two concepts > intellectually and carrying that intellectual separation over into the > respective practices and performances. > > Hope that helps some. Good luck. > > Bob Koester > > > >From: Mark & Ulrike Narins > >Reply-To: Mark & Ulrike Narins > >To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > >Subject: [TBN-L] Vibrato? Yes, No or it depends. > >Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 22:57:41 -0800 > > > >I want to start a discussion of vibrato as it affects section playing. > >Recently in a rehearsal of Beethoven 9 the subject of my vibrato came > >up, not from the conductor or even my own section but a horn player. The > >opinion was expressed that there should be no vibrato in the sound what > >so ever. I honestly wasn't aware that I had much if any vibrato at all > >but after exploring what I was doing, I discovered the following: I was > >getting some movement of the sound directly off my diaphragm. I was not > >trying to make a diaphragm vibrato, it's just natural. I'm a singer as > >well and that's what diaphragms do-they undulate when your breath is > >connected to it. > > The other thing I noticed is that I was adding some lip vibrato > >in addition to what my diaphragm was doing. I realized I did this for > >two reasons-I don't like an absolutely straight sound and the lip > >vibrato helped me hang on to the sustained high notes easier, I was > >playing the alto part on a King 2B. I asked the conductor about it and > >he didn't notice any vibrato-he was happy. I listened to a recording of > >the performance and although I could hear that there was some movement > >(undulation) in the air column while I was playing, it was very mild > >and produced a sound that worked in context of the piece. > > But now I'm paranoid about the whole concept and would > >appreciate comments on vibrato or mild tone undulation (sub-vibrato) in > >a section situation. As American trombonists have we sworn off anything > >remotely resembling vibrato when playing in an symphonic orchestra > >section?? > > > >When I was in Emory Remington's trombone choir I don't remember the > >subject of vibrato coming up per say but I don't believe we played with > >a totally straight tone. Please correct me fellow former choir members. > >Solo voices in the choir did use what I call an undulating sub-vibrato. > >So what do people have to say on this subject. > > > > > >Mark > >______________________ > >Mark Narins > >Phone: (415) 928-7464 > >email: narins@pacbell.net > >______________________ > > _________________________________________________________________ > Find out everything you need to know about Las Vegas here for that getaway. > http://special.msn.com/msnbc/vivalasvegas.armx > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:24:23 -0500 > From: "David A. Schwartz" > Subject: Re: Vibrato? Yes, No or it depends. > > At 09:16 AM 1/12/2004 -0500, John Burton wrote: > >Shucks, even barbershop quartets use vibrato to enhance the sound! > > But usually barbershop quartets use very little vibrato. That is their > magic. The stillness and perfection of barbershop quartet intonation > creates fabulous resultant tones, making them sound rich. > > Vibrato creates unwanted resultants. An operatic quartet, with competitive > vibratos, creates unpleasant resultant tones and sounds muddled. > > Any voice, or part, calls attention to itself with vibrato. That's OK, > within limits. Bill Watrous says it can be good to limit vibrato to the > last third of the time value of the final note of a phrase. > > David > > David A. Schwartz > My two cents is added to the fifth, subtracted from the fourth! > http://www.nyx.net/~dschwart/breakfast.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:38:05 -0500 > From: Chris Dearth > Subject: Re: TROMBONE-L Digest - 10 Jan 2004 to 11 Jan 2004 (#2004-12) > > Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 09:43:49 +0000 > From: Oddur Bjornsson > Subject: Trombone and harp... > > Fellow listers. > I«m looking for music for trombone and harp. Came up with a few titles at > Hickeys and I«m in the process of ordering Norman Bolters Lakes (arr. for > tbone and hp). Nitzan Haroz has performed trombone/harp music with his > mother; does anyone know wich pieces and if they recorded any of it? > All tips appreciated, > Oddur Bjšrnsson. > > Asta Kristin og Oddur Bjornsson, > Mjostraeti 2B, > 101 Reykjavik, > Iceland. > phone/fax: 354-551-6959, > gsm: 354-891-8665. > > > When I was in undergrad at Oberlin many moons ago, I remember a friend of > mine doing Ravel's, "Pavane for a Dead Princess" (pardon me for not putting > the French title, but I do not remember it off hand) for trombone and harp. > I don't remember if there was an arrangement or if the harpist adjusted the > piano part to fit her instrument (My gut says the whole thing was arranged > by the trombonist and harpist). But I do remember it worked really well. I > know it's not originally for trombone (gasp) but would be a very good > possibility. > > Chris Dearth > Principal Trombone, West Virginia Symphony > 2nd Trombone, Evansville Philharmonic > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:07:33 -0800 > From: Chris Tune > Subject: Re: Vibrato? Yes, No or it depends. > > "It depends. . . > > Not appropriate for orchestral section work. (e.g. not any on Brahms > chorales in orchestra, etc.) Probably slight vibrato on something soloistic > and very, very prominent like Ravel Bolero solo. > > Need to vibrato on the very "Cantabile" sections of swing band music (this > will get me into trouble, but here is where modern trombonists fall down > quite often!). Especially needed in trombone section "singing" parts of big > band music. Nothing more boring than flat, non-vibratoed soli sections in > stuff like "At Last", or "Interlude" (although Interlude is one of those > pieces where some straight hold, followed by substantial vibrato, works > quite well).. > > Watrous is right that you could create a "Kenton-esk" effect by waiting > until the end of held tones to put in some real vibrato. > > So NONE for orchestra > PLENTY for swing pretty soli sections. > > Don't vibrato appreciably below F below middle C (sometimes works slower > vibratoing, slight). > > If the lead bone player is so silly as to go through something really > ballad-like such as the "At Last" soli without so much as a waiver in > his/her tone, then I don't think "following the leader" is such a good idea. > The player at the lead bone position is not a dictator. If the person is so > devoid of feeling that he/she only wants straight tone all the time, well > that person needs to think again. The lead bone is responsible for being > musical (sometimes such as in big band jazz, vibrato is neccessary, just > like following dynamics is neccessary. . .we don't suggest ignoring dynamics > because the lead bone does). > > Chris Tune > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David A. Schwartz" > To: > Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 7:24 AM > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Vibrato? Yes, No or it depends. > > > > At 09:16 AM 1/12/2004 -0500, John Burton wrote: > > >Shucks, even barbershop quartets use vibrato to enhance the sound! > > > > But usually barbershop quartets use very little vibrato. That is their > > magic. The stillness and perfection of barbershop quartet intonation > > creates fabulous resultant tones, making them sound rich. > > > > Vibrato creates unwanted resultants. An operatic quartet, with > competitive > > vibratos, creates unpleasant resultant tones and sounds muddled. > > > > Any voice, or part, calls attention to itself with vibrato. That's OK, > > within limits. Bill Watrous says it can be good to limit vibrato to the > > last third of the time value of the final note of a phrase. > > > > David > > > > David A. Schwartz > > My two cents is added to the fifth, subtracted from the fourth! > > http://www.nyx.net/~dschwart/breakfast.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:25:38 -0800 > From: Galen McQuarrie > Subject: Re: TROMBONE-L Digest - 10 Jan 2004 to 11 Jan 2004 (#2004-12) > > I actually have this arrangement. It is by Ostrander, and it dates back to the 1950's. It is indeed scored for harp and trombone. If anyone is interested, email me, and I can give you the particulars as to publisher etc. I don't have the piece handy right now. It's a nice arrangement. I am not sure if it is still available or not. > > Galen McQuarrie > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Dearth [mailto:mr.dearthian@VERIZON.NET] > Sent: Mon 1/12/2004 7:38 AM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Cc: > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] TROMBONE-L Digest - 10 Jan 2004 to 11 Jan 2004 (#2004-12) > > > > Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 09:43:49 +0000 > From: Oddur Bjornsson > Subject: Trombone and harp... > > Fellow listers. > Iå«m looking for music for trombone and harp. Came up with a few titles at > Hickeys and Iå«m in the process of ordering Norman Bolters Lakes (arr. for > tbone and hp). Nitzan Haroz has performed trombone/harp music with his > mother; does anyone know wich pieces and if they recorded any of it? > All tips appreciated, > Oddur BjĢ¦rnsson. > > Asta Kristin og Oddur Bjornsson, > Mjostraeti 2B, > 101 Reykjavik, > Iceland. > phone/fax: 354-551-6959, > gsm: 354-891-8665. > > > When I was in undergrad at Oberlin many moons ago, I remember a friend of > mine doing Ravel's, "Pavane for a Dead Princess" (pardon me for not putting > the French title, but I do not remember it off hand) for trombone and harp. > I don't remember if there was an arrangement or if the harpist adjusted the > piano part to fit her instrument (My gut says the whole thing was arranged > by the trombonist and harpist). But I do remember it worked really well. I > know it's not originally for trombone (gasp) but would be a very good > possibility. > > Chris Dearth > Principal Trombone, West Virginia Symphony > 2nd Trombone, Evansville Philharmonic > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 16:54:14 +0000 > From: Daniel Pliskin > Subject: Re: Vibrato? Yes, No or it depends. > > Mark, > > I do commiserate with you about that unconscious vibrato. After quaking > (and I suppose quacking, too) with an oboe, for far too many years, it now > takes a conscious effort for me to turn my vibrato off. And, like you, it > seems as if my entire body is engaged in the vibrato, not just my lips or my > jaw or my diaphragm. > > So Iām going to paraphrase and misquote Doug Yoe, in search of an answer. I > had asked the list how one chooses between sounding good, in front of the > bell, and sounding good, behind the bell. He said that I should just try to > sound good to me. And when I think of all the yahoos in the audience, who > donāt know a trumpet from a cello, surely pleasing me takes precedence. > > Iāve upset a few teachers, who would like for me to consciously turn the > vibrato off. So far, no one else seems to mind it. > > But I also have a different set of criteria. Iām trying to learn to play > jazz trombone. The majority of my brainpower goes into trying to play > things, which arenāt trite. I guess Iād rather play inventive music with a > stinkinā vibrato than mundane music with none. > > But, also, no matter what you choose to do, youāre going to have detractors. > > Jeez, it was Rick Nelson who said, ćyou got to please yourselfä, or > something like that. And how could I argue with someone who crashed his > airplane, because he was too busy snorting cocaine? > > · and hi neighbor, up there in rainy 415. > > DanP (650) > > _________________________________________________________________ > Scope out the new MSN Plus Internet Software ÷ optimizes dial-up to the max! > http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/plus&ST=1 > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:25:32 -0800 > From: Chris Tune > Subject: Re: Vibrato? Yes, No or it depends. > > Also, Barbershop Quartet is usually performed without vibrato. However, the > sound of the fully adjusted intonation of a barbershop group sometimes > creates "beat tones" which might sound like vibrato. > > And. . .Listen to Watrous. . . .he actually vibratos quite a lot on ballad > material. He does "All The Way" (the Sinatra thing) on a Patrick Williams > album called Sinatraland. The thing is simply drenched with vibrato. That > is just fine. The tune cries out for the vocalistic sound of a solo > trombone with ample vibrato. > > Don't be afraid of vibrato in a commercial music context. Simply be certain > that you are vibratoing when the music requires a very "SINGING" effect. > > Chris Tune > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Tune" > To: > Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 8:07 AM > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Vibrato? Yes, No or it depends. > > > > "It depends. . . > > > > Not appropriate for orchestral section work. (e.g. not any on Brahms > > chorales in orchestra, etc.) Probably slight vibrato on something > soloistic > > and very, very prominent like Ravel Bolero solo. > > > > Need to vibrato on the very "Cantabile" sections of swing band music (this > > will get me into trouble, but here is where modern trombonists fall down > > quite often!). Especially needed in trombone section "singing" parts of > big > > band music. Nothing more boring than flat, non-vibratoed soli sections in > > stuff like "At Last", or "Interlude" (although Interlude is one of those > > pieces where some straight hold, followed by substantial vibrato, works > > quite well).. > > > > Watrous is right that you could create a "Kenton-esk" effect by waiting > > until the end of held tones to put in some real vibrato. > > > > So NONE for orchestra > > PLENTY for swing pretty soli sections. > > > > Don't vibrato appreciably below F below middle C (sometimes works slower > > vibratoing, slight). > > > > If the lead bone player is so silly as to go through something really > > ballad-like such as the "At Last" soli without so much as a waiver in > > his/her tone, then I don't think "following the leader" is such a good > idea. > > The player at the lead bone position is not a dictator. If the person is > so > > devoid of feeling that he/she only wants straight tone all the time, well > > that person needs to think again. The lead bone is responsible for being > > musical (sometimes such as in big band jazz, vibrato is neccessary, just > > like following dynamics is neccessary. . .we don't suggest ignoring > dynamics > > because the lead bone does). > > > > Chris Tune > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "David A. Schwartz" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 7:24 AM > > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Vibrato? Yes, No or it depends. > > > > > > > At 09:16 AM 1/12/2004 -0500, John Burton wrote: > > > >Shucks, even barbershop quartets use vibrato to enhance the sound! > > > > > > But usually barbershop quartets use very little vibrato. That is their > > > magic. The stillness and perfection of barbershop quartet intonation > > > creates fabulous resultant tones, making them sound rich. > > > > > > Vibrato creates unwanted resultants. An operatic quartet, with > > competitive > > > vibratos, creates unpleasant resultant tones and sounds muddled. > > > > > > Any voice, or part, calls attention to itself with vibrato. That's OK, > > > within limits. Bill Watrous says it can be good to limit vibrato to the > > > last third of the time value of the final note of a phrase. > > > > > > David > > > > > > David A. Schwartz > > > My two cents is added to the fifth, subtracted from the fourth! > > > http://www.nyx.net/~dschwart/breakfast.html > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:34:34 -0700 > From: Tom Ervin > Subject: trombone & harp > > Regarding trombone and harp -- > Anything originally for voice and guitar could likely be a natural > transcription. Well, almost. Harp and guitar are of course not quite > the same, with special capabilities and special challenges for both. > But all that wonderful old stuff for voice and lute, wow. > > -- > -------------------- > Tom Ervin, Professor of Music, University of Arizona, > 1017 N. Olive > (PO Box 210004) > Tucson AZ 85721-0004 > Office 520/621-7021, Fax 520/621-8118 ervint@u.arizona.edu > http://tom-ervin.com > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:12:34 -0800 > From: John & Rossana Cather > Subject: FS Conn 4h & old King > > Hi all, I listed an old Conn 4h on ebay. Anyone interested can see it at: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2372740843&category=16216&rd=1 > > I also listed a King by HN White at: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2372742590&category=16216&rd=1 > > Cheers, > John Cat > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:16:36 -0800 > From: Dean Hubbard > Subject: bone & harp > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_00D8_01C3D8F5.28F2E520 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Friends, > I've used O Mio Bambino Caro as a trombone and harp piece. Pretty = > hard to beat Pucinni. Most harpists already know the part and the solo = > part is beautiful and accessable. It's in Ab major, a nice singing key = > on the horn. > > Truly, > Dean Hubbard > ------=_NextPart_000_00D8_01C3D8F5.28F2E520 > Content-Type: text/x-vcard; > name="Dean Hubbard.vcf" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Content-Disposition: attachment; > filename="Dean Hubbard.vcf" > > BEGIN:VCARD > VERSION:2.1 > N:Hubbard;Dean > FN:Dean Hubbard > TEL;HOME;VOICE:(510) 531-6047 > TEL;CELL;VOICE:(510) 325-1877 > TEL;WORK;FAX:(510)336-0243 > TEL;HOME;FAX:(510) 336-0243 > ADR;HOME:;;5849 Ascot Drive;Oakland;CA;94611-2702;USA > LABEL;HOME;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:5849 Ascot = > Drive=3D0D=3D0AOakland, CA 94611-2702=3D0D=3D0AUSA > EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:bonedean@msn.com > REV:20040112T181636Z > END:VCARD > > ------=_NextPart_000_00D8_01C3D8F5.28F2E520-- > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:16:38 -0600 > From: "John.McVey" > Subject: Re: Vibrato? Yes, No or it depends. > > Chris, I wasn't referring to what should be the exception where a lead > player doesn't know what he's doing. Generally, the lead in any pro or > semi-pro section is there because he can play lead and can lead the section. > He knows the styles and when to apply vibrato or any other embellishments or > ornaments and when not to. If you choose not to follow and play your part > your own way, normally nothing dramatic will happen, the Buddy Rich days are > gone for the most part, you just may not get another gig with that band, and > if you're insistent or arrogant about doing things your own way because you > know better, you may miss opportunities with other bands as well because > word gets around. > > ------- Original Message -------- > From: "Chris Tune" > To: "TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU" > CC: > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Vibrato? Yes, No or it depends. > Date: 12/01/04 > > So NONE for orchestra > PLENTY for swing pretty soli sections. > > Don't vibrato appreciably below F below middle C (sometimes works slower > vibratoing, slight). > > If the lead bone player is so silly as to go through something really > ballad-like such as the "At Last" soli without so much as a waiver > in > his/her tone, then I don't think "following the leader" is such a > good idea. > The player at the lead bone position is not a dictator. If the person is so > devoid of feeling that he/she only wants straight tone all the time, well > that person needs to think again. The lead bone is responsible for being > musical (sometimes such as in big band jazz, vibrato is neccessary, just > like following dynamics is neccessary. . .we don't suggest ignoring dynamics > because the lead bone does). > > Chris Tune > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David A. Schwartz" <dschwar@BELLATLANTIC.NET> > To: <TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU> > Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 7:24 AM > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Vibrato? Yes, No or it depends. > > > > At 09:16 AM 1/12/2004 -0500, John Burton wrote: > > >Shucks, even barbershop quartets use vibrato to enhance the sound! > > > > But usually barbershop quartets use very little vibrato. That is their > > magic. The stillness and perfection of barbershop quartet intonation > > creates fabulous resultant tones, making them sound rich. > > > > Vibrato creates unwanted resultants. An operatic quartet, with > competitive > > vibratos, creates unpleasant resultant tones and sounds muddled. > > > > Any voice, or part, calls attention to itself with vibrato. That's OK, > > within limits. Bill Watrous says it can be good to limit vibrato to > the > > last third of the time value of the final note of a phrase. > > > > David > > > > David A. Schwartz > > My two cents is added to the fifth, subtracted from the fourth! > > http://www.nyx.net/~dschwart/breakfast.html > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ > This mail was sent by Cablespeed Webmail > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:18:06 -0600 > From: "Douglas A. Rowe" > Subject: (Re) Introduction > > Hello, my name is Doug Rowe, and I am new/old member of the trombone-l. > I have been a subscriber on and off over the last 6 years, but mostly > off in the last three as I made the transition from student to the > working world. > > A bit about myself: > > I am a bass trombonist who plays in the Minneapolis/St. Paul metro area > as an amateur/quasi-professional trombonist (meaning I get paid for some > gigs, but have a day job, and do a lot of playing for free in community > groups etc.). > > I am playing in a brass quintet, trombone quartet, a community band, > trombone choir, and until recently, the Sheldon Theater Brass Band (out > of Red Wing, MN), as well as occasionally taking lessons from teachers > in the area. I also teach lessons occasionally, mostly to adult > trombone students. > > I have my B.A. music degree from St. Olaf College, where I played in a > smattering of ensembles through out my four years. I occasionally have > delusions of attending grad school for further music degrees sometime in > the future, but I have no concrete plans at this time. > > I am hoping to be able to contribute more to this forum than I have in > the past, so for what it's worth, I figure that knowing a little bit > about where I come from will give folks an idea on whether they should > take me seriously or not when my e-mails appear in their inbox. > > By day I work as a broadcast engineer (dealing with electronics and > computers) at a classical format NPR station (making great use of my > B.A. general music degree (HA!)), and I am trying to decide if I am an > engineer who plays trombone, or a trombonist who engineers. I married a > soprano, and we have two cats. I spend a lot of my free time practicing > (because I like it), much to my wife's chagrin. > > Doug Rowe > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 19:02:17 -0600 > From: Bill Dinwiddie > Subject: Welcome > > Welcome, Doug, > > Glad to have you on the list. I look forward to reading some of your = > opinions. I hope that you will feel like you are getting something out = > of this. I think most of us feel good about the list, although, = > occasionally, a thread that is not particularly interesting can seem to = > go on forever.......but then, that's why they invented the delete key. = > Certainly, having someone who works at NPR will, hopefully, give us some = > insights that we have not had access to before. > > Bill Dinwiddie > billdin@comcast.net > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:43:05 -0500 > From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" > Subject: Lecture in Kalamazoo next week > > I was asked by the WMU school of music to deliver a lecture on using > primary sources in research, but not to bore entire the students to death. > As per request, I'm talking about sources I used for the presentations I > gave at ITG, ITEA, and ARSC conferences--or how to use oral histories, > archival sources, personal papers, etc. Will do a bit of the actual > lecture from the ITG conference on local boy Walter F. Smith and Professor > Scott Thornburg will perform one or two of Smith's favorite solos, to help > recreate Smith's 19th century multi-media presentation. > > Working on a very snazzy handout on the theory if you can't talk good, you > should look good, and just realized that even though I was trying not to > be so low-brass and more multicultural, I have one tubist and 7 > trombonists in thumbnail photos (1940s Detroit symphony low brass, Bart > Varselona (Library of Congress), Japanese American trombonists at an > internment camp in AK (National Archives), Sousa Band members, James Reese > Europe (National Archives), some amusing sheet music covers. The > thumbnails are all from various libraries or archives with good digital > offerings--"The Tip of the Iceberg." Also have a goofy sheet music > example, fiddle players, dancers, etc. > > Carole Nowicke > cnowicke@indiana.edu > > ------------------------------ > > End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 11 Jan 2004 to 12 Jan 2004 (#2004-13) > **************************************************************** > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 11:20:41 -0800 From: Dean Hubbard Subject: Schmelzer This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A7_01C3D9C7.47649800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Friends, I've only tried a couple of the #1s. They were well made, sturdy = yet extremely light in weight. I really thought the slides were great = right out of the box. The general knock seems to be the horn's ability to project. I didn't = find that to be a problem but, I put in very little (45min) time on the = horns. One of the List's finest bone players, Rob Stoneback bought one at = the ITA in '99 but ended up returning the horn to the store. I was = there and heard Rob play of a good 30 minutes or so and thought it = sounded marvelous. May be he could shed some light. I'm very happy with my current set up. If I wasn't, I certainly = would put the Scmetzer on the short list of axes to try. Don't flame me, I'm old and sick, Dean Hubbard ------=_NextPart_000_00A7_01C3D9C7.47649800 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="Dean Hubbard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Dean Hubbard.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Hubbard;Dean FN:Dean Hubbard TEL;HOME;VOICE:(510) 531-6047 TEL;CELL;VOICE:(510) 325-1877 TEL;WORK;FAX:(510)336-0243 TEL;HOME;FAX:(510) 336-0243 ADR;HOME:;;5849 Ascot Drive;Oakland;CA;94611-2702;USA LABEL;HOME;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:5849 Ascot = Drive=3D0D=3D0AOakland, CA 94611-2702=3D0D=3D0AUSA EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:bonedean@msn.com REV:20040113T192041Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_00A7_01C3D9C7.47649800-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 13:59:35 -0600 From: Robert Holland Subject: Re: Vibrato? Yes, No or it depends. Mark Narins wrote: >> after exploring what I was doing, I discovered the following: I was >> getting some movement of the sound directly off my diaphragm. I was not >> trying to make a diaphragm vibrato, it's just natural. and >> The other thing I noticed is that I was adding some lip vibrato >> in addition to what my diaphragm was doing. I realized I did this for >> two reasons-I don't like an absolutely straight sound and the lip >> vibrato helped me hang on to the sustained high notes easier I don't read many threads and comment on even fewer, but I thought I would comment on this. It seems that the use of vibrato in your case is the confluence of at least three factors: unawareness (diaphragmatic air), style, and technical crutch. While the unawareness and technical crutch may not be ideal, they don't necessarily invalidate the use of vibrato. In the best case, one only does what one intends, but that's utopian and beyond the reach of mere mortals. Some accomodations to technical necessity work fine musically; others fails miserably. In your case, as long as the vibrato doesn't call undue attention to itself (the hornist might hear it, but the audience probably doesn't), I wouldn't worry too much. With other players, the use of vibrato founders on stylistic grounds. While on the whole I tend to agree that vibrato is out of place in orchestral playing, I reflexively chafe against the notion that there is only on proper way. Old recordings of European orchestra demonstrate a lot more color, variety, and (subsequently) interest through their nonstandardization, whereas standardization is the rule in modern American orchestras. I'll never win any converts to such an opinion, I'm sure, but so what? Anything that adds an element of expression and interest to the otherwise flat affect of square phrasing and evenness of tone is worth consideration. Robert Holland Briar Music Press briar@chicagonet.net =================================================================== EASY and FREE access to your email anywhere: http://elderink.com/mailreader =================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 15:55:30 EST From: Johannes Mader Subject: Re: Schmelzer Hi, this is his website: http://www.schmelzertrombone.de/ Johannes ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 16:25:19 -0500 From: David Carter Subject: Re: Schmelzer trombones opinions) I had the chance to play one once, briefly. I was not impressed. A small bore tenor, but did not seem to have the wide dynamic range of typical American horns, such as Conn 6H, King 3B, etc. They may be well built, and with the light weight may feel responsive, but this doesn't mean they play better than other horns. Just one persons opinion. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 18:11:09 -0500 From: Chuck De Paolo Subject: Subscription Problem Hi, Does anyone know who is in charge of Trombone-L subscriptions? A longtime list member, currently unsubscribed, has asked me to help him get back on, as he has had no luck re-subscribing. Please repond privately if you do. Thanks! In Music, ---Charles De Paolo General Manager & Webmaster Hickey's Music Center 104 Adams Street Ithaca, NY 14850 607.272.8262 (Phone) 607.272.2203 (Fax) chuck@hickeys.com (E-Mail) http://www.hickeys.com (Website) http://www.weather.com/weather/local/14850 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 00:05:08 -0500 From: "Paul D. Kemp Jr." Subject: Where to buy horns Dear Trombone-L, As a private music/trombone teacher, I am always looking for good, reputable places where students can get a good used professional grade instrument and not feel like they have bought the farm. Let's face the facts: New horns are EXPENSIVE, even with the substantial discounts that many of the stores are offering, and many times a good used instrument can be bought from anywhere to 40-50% of that price. I have been very fortunate in that I have found some very good deals on the OTJ classifieds, and I also deal with a music store or two. Even if the slide needs a first class alignment, you're still not out of the price of a brand new horn, and many times, even brand new horns, even from the custom shops, are far less than put together correctly. Right after Christmas I had the opportunity to visit DJ Kennedy there in his little domain of the world in Chester, Illinois. Chester is about 60 miles off I-57 in the southern part of Illinois, and he's 330 miles south of Chicago. Not much going on there, to be honest with you. However, he has an absolutely staggering array of used horns, some really good, some not so good, but the prices that he's asking would definitely fit most people's pocketbook very well. He deals mostly with the smaller bore instruments, but for example, he has a NY Bach 36 from the 30's---older design where the tuning slide is very wide, (much wider than the current Bach 36/42 tuning slide) but this instrument sings like a bird. I don't know what he would sell it for but in the hands of an extremely good instrument restoration person (NO--not the average repairman in the average shop---a REAL CRAFTSMAN) it could made to be look like new and even like it is now, a good slide alignment would make this horn play even better than it does now, and I'd play it on a gig in a Manhattan Moment RIGHT NOW. He's also got a Conn 78 from the 30's that supposedly belonged to Frank Crisafulli, no bell lock (they didn't make them that way in those days) but again with a good slide alignment, this horn has a voice that is EXTREMELY unique. If I was in the market for a real vintage horn and had unlimited funds, either of these horns would be a real deal. I can see why some of the older horns are commanding the prices that they are----it was a real education into the care and pride of American craftsmanship of yesteryear. He has a bunch of Conn 6H's, King 3B's 2B's----easily he has about 100 used horns, many of which can be made professionally playable for practically nothing---a great slide alignment would be all that most of them would need. He has a few of the .525 horns and .547 bore horns too. I was literally like a kid in a candyshop. One thing that I can say about the quality of yesteryear, irrespective of how these horns were put together, was that the parts and materials that were used to manufacture many of the older instruments were in many ways much better than the parts and materials used to build horns today. It was as if the reputation of the company, whether it was King, Conn, Bach, etc. was on the line with every instrument that was made. As far as I am concerned, it still is. However, the attention to detail that was paid back then seemed to be much greater than what I have witnessed at a few of the instrument displays that I've had the opportunity to visit in recent years. Well I kinda got off the subject, but anyone looking for an older instrument would do quite well to contact DJ at djpens@midwest.com or call him at 618-826-2810 and talk to him about what he has available. If you're bent on having something brand new, and you're looking for world class craftsmanship, then I'd definitely would consider Greenhoe, Inc., as they are now manufacturing a custom Conn trombone and I know that they will also be tooling up to be building a custom Bach trombone as well in the very near future. No, they don't give them away, but for about the same money as you would pay for an Edwards or a Shires, you can have a truly custom Conn or Bach that will play great as soon as you take it out of the case. Happy New year everyone, Paul Kemp Chattanooga Symphony www.trbnplyr.com ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 12 Jan 2004 to 13 Jan 2004 (#2004-14) ****************************************************************