Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 2 Jan 2004 to 3 Jan 2004 (#2004-4) Date: Sunday, January 4, 2004 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 7 messages totalling 323 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Rims-soldered or unsoldered. What is the difference? (4) 2. FS-Altieri Large Tenor/Bass Trombone Gig Bag 3. Angel Kmocking on my door 4. Sorry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 00:16:58 -0800 From: jimandcat@JUNO.COM Subject: Re: Rims-soldered or unsoldered. What is the difference? I'll weigh in here from the bass trombone perspective. I played on a Conn 72H (yellow unsoldered) during my hs, college, army band, and early pro years. Minick stuck a red brass 73H bell (unsoldered) on that horn which I played for another 5 years (or so) of orchestral playing. I then got a yellow brass Bach 50B (soldered) which Larry converted to open-wrap (it is an early 60s Elkhart Bach), and also fixed me up with a double valve set up to convert to when I wanted to (most of the time). This was a time I was primarily playing in large symphonic orchestras. Now (since 2001) I have a couple of Shires bells, both red brass, both unsoldered. That's the prep. Here is what I found. The unsoldered bells (either red or yellow) have a lot more color changes and are generally more fun to play. They also break up (get noisy or "blatty") when you play real loud on them. The red bells don't get as "crashy", but are still easy to overblow. The soldered yellow brass bell can take a lot of volume without breaking up, and (with Larry Minick's adaptions, mostly to the bracing) has a lot of color as well, but not as "flexible" as the unsoldered bells. For most every kind of free lance gig I do (chamber music, shows, recording, big band, classical solos ) the unsoldered bells work great. I can really warm up a lot of music with them. But for big orchestral stuff (Mahler, Wagner, etc.) the soldered Bach bell works better. The metaphor to me is this: the soldered Bach bell is my Hummer, my truck, my heavy equipment. The unsoldered bells are my sports car, my sedan, my luxury car, and sometimes a motorcycle. Just how it works for me, others might find it different. I just got a heavier Shires bell (unsoldered red, 2R) that with the right mouthpiece, leadpipe, & tuning crook will probably work really well on the big orchestra stuff. Still waiting to find out. Playing the 2nd bone part (which really is a tenor part) on the road show Chicago this week, my Shires 2RLW bell with the B2 leadpipe and the B tuning slide works great and blends just fine with my partner's Bach 12. Even though I am using a big mouthpiece (Ferguson LS) and a dual bore slide (.562/.578). Though I may try a show with a smaller mouthpiece and standard bore slide just for the heck of it. I know, for theatrical reasons, my King 3B would sound like crap on this part. But if I were playing the same type of music in a club, it would probably be a better choice. Jim Prindle San Diego ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 11:35:25 -0600 From: Chris Waage Subject: FS-Altieri Large Tenor/Bass Trombone Gig Bag Altieri large tenor/bass trombone gig bag. Fits most bass trombones easily =AD my 10=B2 bell Edwards fit perfectly. However, my wife decided I needed a new case for Christmas, so this one has to go. It=B9s in good condition, but does have a minor snag in the bell compartment which would easily be fixed if you=B9re handy with a needle and thread (...I=B9m not...). It has a replacement shoulder strap which is a bit wider than the original. $85 including shipping in the US. Outside the US, buyer pays all shipping. Chris --=20 Chris Waage, Associate Webmaster The Online Trombone Journal "A Website for Trombonists" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 11:44:13 -0700 From: Phil Burton Subject: Angel Kmocking on my door There came a frantic knock At the doctor's office door, A knock, more urgent than he had ever heard before. ~~~~ "Come in, Come in," the impatient doctor said, "Come in, Come in, before you wake the dead." ~~~~ In walked a frightened little girl, a child no more than nine, It was plain for all to see, she had troubles on her mind. ~~~~ "Oh doctor, I beg you, please come with me, My mother is surely dying, she's as sick as she can be." ~~~~ "I don't make house calls, bring your mother here," "But she's too sick, so you must come or she will die I fear." ~~~~ The doctor, touched by her devotion, decided he would go, She said he would be blessed, more than he could know. ~~~~ She led him to her house where her mother lay in bed, Her mother was so very sick she couldn't raise her head. ~~~~ But her eyes cried out for help and help her the doctor did, She would have died that very night had it not been for her kid. ~~~~ The doctor got her fever down and she lived through the night, And morning brought the doctor signs, that she would be all right. ~~~~ The doctor said he had to leave but would return again by two, And later he came back to check, just like he said he'd do. ~~~~ The mother praised the doctor for all the things he'd done, He told her she would have died, were it not for her little one. ~~~~ "How proud you must be of your wonderful little girl, It was her pleading that made me come, she is really quite a pearl! ~~~~ "But doctor, my daughter died over three years ago, Is the picture on the wall of the little girl you know?" ~~~~ The doctors legs went limp for the picture on the wall, Was the same little girl for whom he'd made this call. ~~~~ The doctor stood motionless, for quite a little while, And then his solemn face, was broken by his smile. ~~~~ He was thinking of that frantic knock heard at his office door, And of the beautiful little angel that had walked across his floor. ~~~~ Share the Blessing of Heavenly Love! If this E-mail meant nothing to you, you may go ahead and delete it because you will not receive bad luck only a smaller, misshaped heart. ~~~~ But if you shared the same emotions as I, then send it to all who will care. And as you send it to each person, your heart will grow bigger and stronger. ~~~~ I believe there are Angels among us....... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 11:54:32 -0700 From: Phil Burton Subject: Sorry I apologize for my previous post, misaddressed... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 11:10:33 +1100 From: hlmswlkr@OZEMAIL.COM.AU Subject: Re: Rims-soldered or unsoldered. What is the difference? Can't help but think with some of the replies regarding soldered and un-soldered that many of them are Conn vs Bach. This really isn't an apples-apples comparison due to the 2 companies having many other aspects to their horns which are designed differently ie leadpipes, tuning slides, bell tapers etc etc. Get Steve Shires to make you 2 (as close as possible) identical bells, and solder one of them, then you can really get an idea as to how this effects the horn. just a thought....... Matthew Walker Bass Trombonist, Opera Australia Walker's Instrument Repair, "The Brassery" This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 20:33:44 -0500 From: "David A. Schwartz" Subject: Re: Rims-soldered or unsoldered. What is the difference? Matthew Walker wrote: > . . .Get Steve Shires to make you 2 (as close as possible) identical > bells, and solder one of them, then you can really get an idea as to how > this effects the horn. > >just a thought....... About four years ago I did just about that. A long time tenor trombonist, I was buying my first bass trombone at the Shires shop. I was choosing between Steve's 1Y HW bell and his 2Y HW bell. Both are heavy weight yellow brass bells, 1Y with soldered bead and 2Y unsoldered. The first thing I did was try out the new instrument performing in an outdoor concert with a swing band I'd never played with before, on the 1Y, the soldered bead bell. It took all the volume I gave it, and I made lots of my figures, well, percussive. It was clear to me that this trombone section had never had that kind of cohesiveness and power on the bottom, and I felt flattered when the guys standing behind me, the trumpet players, wanted to meet me and ask about the trombone. With heavy weight bells, though, you can't say the sound starts easy. It's like a heavy bat. It takes more energy to play. I had reservations about buying the soldered bead bell. An experienced bass trombonist had told me that an unsoldered yellow brass bass trombone bell would produce better overtones, making a better contribution to the intonation of a trombone section. Also, Steve Shires had implied there might be more color and flexibility and more fun playing an unsoldered bead bell. I went back to the Shires showroom and tried both the 1YHW and the 2YHW, back and forth. Frankly, I couldn't tell the difference. there in the showroom. I liked both equally well. Incidentally, the trombone itself had dependent Thayer valves, a B2 leadpipe, B tuning slide, and single bore regular weight .562 slide. I turned in the 1YHW bell, purchased the 2YHW bell, the unsoldered bead, and four years later have no regrets. My hunch is that the heavy weight of the bell makes the choice, soldered bead or not, relatively unimportant. I might have needed the stability or buffering character contributed by a soldered bead in a lightweight yellow brass bell. I think red or gold brass can be more forgiving, absorbing any excess energy. Incidentlly, a year later I purchased a second bass trombone bell from Steve Shires. Like Jim Prindle's bell, it is a red 2R, but mine is T7, thinned flare, rather than LW. They're probably similar. This lighter red bell is fun to play in chamber music, and the sound seems to radiate in all directions rather than project straight ahead. I hope we hear more experiences, soldered versus unsoldered bells. David http://www.nyx.net/~dschwart/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 20:50:33 -0500 From: Dale Cruse Subject: Re: Rims-soldered or unsoldered. What is the difference? Different strokes for different folks. I can tell you Steve does generally play unsoldered bead bells. I'm his sales director and feel exactly the opposite. I like the soldered bead. I feel that I've heard enough players in the shop compare bells that 9 times out of 10 in a blind test I can tell if the player is playing with a soldered bead or an unsoldered bead (all other things being similar). How? To my ears there is a certain "presence" that the articulation has with the soldered bead that I just don't hear with the unsoldered. For what it's worth. Your mileage may vary. Dale Cruse Sales Director S.E. Shires David A. Schwartz wrote: > Steve Shires had implied there > might be more color and flexibility and more fun playing an unsoldered bead > bell. ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 2 Jan 2004 to 3 Jan 2004 (#2004-4) *************************************************************