Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 8 Oct 2003 to 9 Oct 2003 (#2003-280) Date: Friday, October 10, 2003 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 49 messages totalling 2231 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Big Sigh of Relief (6) 2. Conn-Selmer 3. Friedebald Graefe ??? 4. Bye DJ... (2) 5. Fwd: [TBN-L] Hagmann valves 6. Hagmann valves (2) 7. 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language 8. Racist? Rubbish! (2) 9. Offtopic, Re: [TBN-L] Racist? Rubbish! (6) 10. FW: [TBN-L] Troll Alert???? Racist language Israelis 11. Slide crooks? 12. jerry and jury (5) 13. FW: [TBN-L] Slide crooks? (3) 14. Troll Alert???? 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Raci st language (2) 15. Troll Alert???? 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Raci st language 16. Fw: [TBN-L] Trombones and Other Stuff for Sale 17. Sad 18. Slide creates compression? 19. Questions (4) 20. Pledge 21. FW: Carl 22. This was the thread that never ends 23. All this recent crap 24. Fw: [TBN-L] FW: Carl 25. 79H/88H attachment tubing 26. Clarification ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 22:23:00 -0700 From: "Eric, Leandra, Sara & Jared Edwards" Subject: Big Sigh of Relief So, What's it gonna be?? Thayer or Greenhoe?? With S-O-M or Trombotine? Binak or Al Cass?? Running for cover!!! Eric Edwards bonearzt@earthlink.net "Just shut up and play!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 02:56:17 EDT From: MikeSuter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Conn-Selmer Hi All, Eric Swanson wrote << But, I guess there are always the unfortunate people who are uninformed enough to buy a Chinese horn though. >> I have to point out that we on the trombone list live in a somewhat rarefied atmosphere. We know about these Asian horns. Most buyers don't. I have a friend who owns a music store in Riverside CA. He tells me that $$$ is the overwhelming consideration - many times the only consideration - in the purchase of a new horn. His customers walk in ask for the "cheapest trombone you got" and won't look at anything else. If his sales staff tries to educate them, they turn and walk out the door. I admit Riverside isn't the richest city around, but the same thing happens all over. The only surprise I have over the Conn-Selmer situation is that they didn't buy into one of these Asian companies when the coming problem became apparent several years ago so they could offer a competitive (even if an equally inferior) alternative. A little foresight could have saved them a lot of problems. All The Best, Mike Suter PrimeSlide Group Slidewerke The National Slide Quartet ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 10:39:35 +0200 From: Howard Weiner Subject: Re: Friedebald Graefe ??? At 17:12 08.10.03 -0500, John J. Jenkins wrote: >Hello all. I need to comment briefly on the bio of Friedebald Graefe for a >Perfomance >class I attend, but I don't know a thing about the man. Is there anyone >out there that >could give me some insight as to what were his other contributions (if >any), birthdate, >major events in his life, etc. I'd greatly appreciate it! Thank you. > >John J. Jenkins A while back I tried to find information about Graefe, unfortunately without success. The only possible lead was a violist (of all things!) named Graefe (no first name given in my sources) in the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra in the mid-18th century. That this Graefe could be the same person who wrote the trombone concerto is not so far-fetched as it may seem at first glance: Carl Traugott Queisser, the trombonist for whom the David Concertino (and a number of other 18th-century trombone concertos) was written, was solo violist of the Gewandhaus Orchestra (in his day job). The only rub: violist Graefe became a member of the Gewandhaus a number of years after Queisser had died. Howard -- Howard Weiner weiner@privat.toplink.de http://www.odilia.ch/howard-weiner If vegetarians eat only vegetables, what do humanitarians eat? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 07:03:02 EDT From: SteveInside@AOL.COM Subject: Bye DJ... Just wanted to say how good it has been to know you through these conduits o= f=20 e-mail, ebay and the Pay Pal Pirates that danced around with our money in=20 their pockets a while ago. I've learned a great deal and been entertained by your small bell news, your= =20 generous responses to questions about how to work the ebay system, old horns= ,=20 your humour, creativity and especially your honesty and truthfulness. For what little it seems to be worth when it comes from my keyboard; I felt=20 both sad and angry when I saw so much personal blaming and shaming of you=20= =E2=80=94=20 something that seems to have been around on this list from time to time. Hope to bump into you in another forum at another time. Very best wishes, Steve C London ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 07:04:17 EDT From: SteveInside@AOL.COM Subject: Fwd: [TBN-L] Hagmann valves --part1_175.20f5a9ba.2cb69ab1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_175.20f5a9ba.2cb69ab1_boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part2_175.20f5a9ba.2cb5a18c_boundary" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 08/10/03 17:56:13 GMT Daylight Time, david.musgrove@BLUESEALSOFTWARE.COM writes: > I can't say anything about the longer term maintenance, but I went and > tried Mick Rath's trombones the other week ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Keith, we talked about repair persons recently and for what it's worth, I've had work done on a 3B at Rath and they were fast, very professional and allowed me to keep taking the horn back until I was satisfied. Regards Steve C --part1_175.20f5a9ba.2cb69ab1_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 07:14:48 EDT From: SteveInside@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Hagmann valves Haven't seen this arrive so I'm sending it again. In a message dated 08/10/03 17:56:13 GMT Daylight Time, david.musgrove@BLUESEALSOFTWARE.COM writes: > I can't say anything about the longer term maintenance, but I went and > tried Mick Rath's trombones the other week ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Keith, we talked about repair persons recently and for what it's worth, I've had work done on a 3B at Rath and they were fast, very professional and allowed me to keep taking the horn back until I was satisfied. Regards Steve C ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 12:14:36 +0100 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language > "The Jews were given the same exhortation by God, via Moses: > > Exodus 22:25 (or 22:24 in the Torah) "If you lend money to one of my > people among you who is needy, do not be like a moneylender; charge him > no interest." Oops, I must have pressed the wrong buttons. Is this the Bible list? A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 12:15:03 +0100 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Racist? Rubbish! From: "D.J. Kennedy" > ok im outta here !!!!!!!!!!!!! So, the list loses another great contributor because of one or two simple minded fools. The greatest attribute the majority of the Jewish race have is that they can laugh at themselves. That is probably one of the reasons I married into a Jewish family. It's a pity that there are a minority out there who do not have this quality. God, I live in a country where I constantly listen to offensive remarks about my own race, the English. Thank Heaven I can laugh at and enjoy Scottish humour. To be a racist, you have to be uneducated. DJ is one of the more intelligent contributors the list has attracted. His remark was neither racist, nor offensive. DJ, I sincerely hope that you change your mind. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:03:07 +0100 From: Keith Marr Subject: Re: Bye DJ... Well folks? I suggested we drop the racist thread several days ago and I hope those of you who didn't listen are well satisfied with the result. . . Keith in Bb/F/D --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.521 / Virus Database: 319 - Release Date: 23/09/2003 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 05:18:26 -0700 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Offtopic, Re: [TBN-L] Racist? Rubbish! --- Adrian Drover wrote: > So, the list loses another great contributor because of > one or two simple > minded fools. Adrian, I hope you're not calling me a simple minded fool. I feel terrible that my post was what triggered D.J. to go, and I'll email him privately to try to clear it up, but I stand by it. His remark WAS racist, offensive and insensitive, even though I completely agree that he's not, fundamentally. I sincerely tried to say that in my post, but I guess I failed. Wonderful people say terrible things sometimes, usually in an offhanded way, that can get them in trouble. At least there are no real consequences for D.J. here. There's a sports radio talk team suspended without pay in Boston right now for making a bad and ill-advised joke on-air about a gorilla that escaped from the zoo (only a few hundred yards from my house!), comparing him to the many black teenagers who live in that neighborhood. I don't think they meant any offense by it, but they're sure paying now... If "jew me down" is still an acceptable term in D.J.'s circle, it certainly isn't in mine or in anybody else's who called him on it - and Debra wasn't the only one, if you remember. The greatest attribute the majority of the > Jewish race have > is that they can laugh at themselves. That is probably > one of the reasons I > married into a Jewish family. It's a pity that there are > a minority out > there who do not have this quality. Call me overreacting if you will, but language is just the tip of the racism iceberg, and it often comes from people who really are well-meaning, like D.J. How many wars have we seen flare up, just in the last couple of decades, between people who lived peacefully alongside each other for generations until somebody exploited their stereotypes to turn them against each other? I contend that if we can do away with the stereotypes, at least in our slang, we do a lot to prevent those kinds of conflicts. God, I live in a > country where I > constantly listen to offensive remarks about my own race, > the English. Adrain, it's not the same thing and I think you are fully aware of that. Remarks between Irish of different faiths can have life or death consequences, even if they didn't start that way. > Thank Heaven I can laugh at and enjoy Scottish humour. > To be a racist, you > have to be uneducated. I don't think so. There are plent of frighteningly well-educated racists here in the US. And unfortunately many of them hold positions of power. > DJ, I sincerely hope that you change your mind. So do I. I apologize for being offtopic here, but I really think this is important. ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 09:15:23 -0400 From: Chuck De Paolo Subject: Re: Offtopic, Re: [TBN-L] Racist? Rubbish! So, How bout that Slide-O-Mix? How's that Lemon Pledge working? What kinda mouthpiece do you use? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 09:15:49 -0400 From: "Avery, Ray (232)" Subject: Re: Offtopic, Re: [TBN-L] Racist? Rubbish! Hey Chuck, are you giving out any free samples of SOM Rapid Comfort? My bottle is almost empty. Ray Avery Director, Human Resources Harvard Custom Manufacturing, Inc. 607-687-7669 -----Original Message----- From: Chuck De Paolo [mailto:chuck@HICKEYS.COM] Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 9:15 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Offtopic, Re: [TBN-L] Racist? Rubbish! So, How bout that Slide-O-Mix? How's that Lemon Pledge working? What kinda mouthpiece do you use? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 09:28:22 -0400 From: "John J. Jenkins" Subject: Re: Offtopic, Re: [TBN-L] Racist? Rubbish! Could we all just squash this topic, FOR GOOD? Seriously...I'm sick to my stomach hearing about this day after day. In addition, it continues to deter off topic severely. First it's about a politically incorrect comment, then it's a biblical debate. What's next? Sure, DJ shouldn't have said that, but I'm possitive he didn't have any harmful intent behind it. I'm sure he curses the day he every typed that post -- especially since all of this drama errupted as a result. How about we all play the role of being the "Bigger Man" and move on, but LEARN from what happend? That sure sounds like a good idea to me... Later. John J. Jenkins "I have no pleasure in any man who despises music. It is no invention of ours: it is a gift of God. I place it next to theology. Satan hates music: he knows how it drives the evil spirit out of us." - Martin Luther - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 06:46:31 -0700 From: Matthew Stoecker Subject: Re: Big Sigh of Relief Pledge! Matt Stoecker ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Eric, Leandra, Sara & Jared Edwards=20 To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 10:23 PM Subject: [TBN-L] Big Sigh of Relief So, What's it gonna be?? Thayer or Greenhoe?? With S-O-M or Trombotine? Binak or Al Cass?? Running for cover!!! Eric Edwards bonearzt@earthlink.net "Just shut up and play!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 06:47:56 -0700 From: Matthew Stoecker Subject: Re: FW: [TBN-L] Troll Alert???? Racist language Israelis Jury-rigged is actually a corruption of Jerry-rigged, which is a slur on = Germans from WWI. Matt Stoecker ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Eric, Leandra, Sara & Jared Edwards=20 To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 9:09 PM Subject: [TBN-L] FW: [TBN-L] Troll Alert???? Racist language Israelis I, for one, think this whole "racist" thing is TOTAL B.F.S!!!!! If we lose a great contributor like DJ over this crap, I'll be sure = to follow. DJ, please reconsider!!!!!! One slightly off handed comment does not a racist make. Anyone who has = read his posts and/or met him in person know he is not the slightest bit = racist. How many times have any of us used the term "rigged" with the well = known and hopefully extinct extensions? Jury being the nicer of the ones I have = heard. Are we going to be known as being racist against the Judicial system? = Yeah right. Same nonsense! And now I'm going to take my own advice! JUST SHUT UP AND PLAY!! Eric Edwards bonearzt@earthlink.net "Just shut up and play!" -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Debra Silver Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 6:50 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Troll Alert???? Racist language Israelis 1. Uh, I am not a troll, and not trying to start a flame war. I don't = see where anyone would say that--the comment was offensive, and I couldn't believe it wasn't monitored. If you want to see me, go to my internet = radio website www.smartwomen.org/onair scroll to the bottom, and you'll see = me. If you tune in next Monday, you'll hear me also. 2. Of what relevance is an Israeli's opinion vs any one else's? The majority of Israelis are not well educated in Jewish history or Jewish values (unfortunately), so I'm not sure what they would bring to this discussion is of greater value than anyone else's. 3. See above with reference to Jews--there are plenty of Jews who = don't realize racism when the see it (unfortunately). 4. I know a lot of people, from all walks of life, many of whom don't = know whether or not I'm Jewish--I've NEVER heard that term used. 5. If someone was saying that I haven't posted--that's not true--I = received great advice re repairs earlier this year, and I also posted years and = years ago when I was on it. 6. I now realize the message was not for the whole list, and maybe = that's why it wasn't monitored. Racists are everywhere, even among = trombone-l users, and I don't pretend they'll ever be gone. 7. I am one of the most *non* PC people, believe it or not. > > --- LarryL595@AOL.COM wrote: > > I don't know whether Debra Silver is a troll or not, > > but as a Jew, there is > > no question in my mind that the comment was > > thoughtless and racist. > > This is getting to be rather like John Lennon's > offhand comment concerning the popularity of the > Beatles with the youth of Britain over the popularity > of religion, with one sentence taken completely out of > context by an American publication running it > secondhand and blowing completely out of proportion, > much to Lennon's bewilderment. > > I am Jewish and do not find DJ's imagery offensive. > "To jew one down" is perhaps an unfortunate phrase but > one with a long history in the American lexicon. DJ > often uses words for their poetic or attention-getting > value rather than their connotation or denotation. > Read one of his long and winding rants wherein he > strings together long chains of similar-sounding words > that barely relate to one another. > > And yes, DJ knows I am Jewish, and has for years. And > he does not paint all Jews with the brush that he uses > when he expresses his opinions about the > Israeli-Palestinian situation. > > Speaking of which, I have not seen an interjection yet > from Eliezer Aharoni...who is an Israeli trombonist on > this list. > > Michael Shoshani > Chicago IL > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 09:54:54 -0400 From: "Peter W. Schroth" Subject: Re: Slide crooks? Okay, I teach at a polytechnic university, but I'm not an engineer or a physicist. Perhaps someone else can make this clearer. Jeff, you are correct that, say, lowering the pitch x cents requires adding more inches of slide if the starting point is a longer air column. For instance, the distance in inches from first position to second position is less than the distance in inches from fourth position to fifth position. However, the percentage increase in total length from first to second is the same as the percentage increase in total length from fourth to fifth. However, none of this is affected by the width of the slide. Both the percentage increase and the number of inches added are the same to go from fourth position to fifth position whether you are playing a small bore Bb trombone that pushes against your neck or an extra large Bb bass trombone with a slide six inches wide. Peter W. Schroth Jeff Albert wrote: > > Ok. Does two inches change the pitch by x cents, or does y% of change in > the length change the pitch by x cents? If it is y%, then the positions are > not equal on unequal length slides. Right? > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 08:57:39 -0500 From: Michael Shoshani Subject: Re: Big Sigh of Relief We've secretly replaced Matthew Stoecker 's message with Folger's Crystals. Let's see if anyone notices: >Pledge! > >Matt Stoecker Having purchased a (magnificent) vintage King 2-B Silvertone from Matt, I can attest to his usage of Pledge. :) The whole inner slide was lemony-fresh! (I use Holton's Oil with water, so it no longer smells like lemon, though...) Michael Shoshani Chicago IL ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 10:23:01 -0400 From: "Peter W. Schroth" Subject: Re: jerry and jury The Oxford English Dictionary lists examples of "jerry-built" from as far back as 1869. It does not mention Germans at all, but says an 1884 assertion that the term commemorates a specific English building firm "has on investigation not been confirmed." The OED traces examples of "jury-mast" ("Naut. A temporary mast put up in place of one that has been broken or carried away.") and similar nautical expressions, such as jury-rigged, back to 1616. This has nothing to do with the sort of juries involved in law cases. The OED does not suggest any connection between jerry-built and jury-rigged. In fact, they have different meanings. "Jerry-built" means shoddy. "Jury-rigged" means a temporary substitute for something damaged or lost. Neither appears to be an ethnic slur (or even a slur on lawyers). (Trombone content: trombone students often are required to "play a jury" for an audience of or including members of the faculty, in which the students demonstrate their performance skill.) Peter W. Schroth Matthew Stoecker wrote: > > Jury-rigged is actually a corruption of Jerry-rigged, which is a slur on Germans from WWI. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 07:33:48 -0700 From: "Eric, Leandra, Sara & Jared Edwards" Subject: FW: [TBN-L] Slide crooks? Theoretically this makes sense. But, if you add actual tube length to the crook, don't you have to make adjustments somewhere else? I agree with the premise of changing the length as far as percentages go, but that doesn't translate into actual slide distances. 32% or two inches on a Bach won't be the same as 32% or two inches on an Olds if the slides and crooks are of different dimensions. Just thinking out loud. Thanks Eric Eric Edwards bonearzt@earthlink.net "Just shut up and play!" -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Peter W. Schroth Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 6:55 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Slide crooks? Okay, I teach at a polytechnic university, but I'm not an engineer or a physicist. Perhaps someone else can make this clearer. Jeff, you are correct that, say, lowering the pitch x cents requires adding more inches of slide if the starting point is a longer air column. For instance, the distance in inches from first position to second position is less than the distance in inches from fourth position to fifth position. However, the percentage increase in total length from first to second is the same as the percentage increase in total length from fourth to fifth. However, none of this is affected by the width of the slide. Both the percentage increase and the number of inches added are the same to go from fourth position to fifth position whether you are playing a small bore Bb trombone that pushes against your neck or an extra large Bb bass trombone with a slide six inches wide. Peter W. Schroth Jeff Albert wrote: > > Ok. Does two inches change the pitch by x cents, or does y% of change in > the length change the pitch by x cents? If it is y%, then the positions are > not equal on unequal length slides. Right? > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 07:29:34 -0700 From: Matthew Stoecker Subject: Re: jerry and jury I stand corrected! Though I am personally familiar with wartime examples = that are german slurs, it would seem that the 'feeling' was added after = the invention of the word. Thanks for doing the research to bring this = to light. MTC: I play trombone too. Matt=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Peter W. Schroth=20 To: Matthew Stoecker=20 Cc: TROMBONE-L@po.missouri.edu=20 Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 7:23 AM Subject: Re: jerry and jury The Oxford English Dictionary lists examples of "jerry-built" from as far back as 1869. It does not mention Germans at all, but says an 1884 assertion that the term commemorates a specific English building firm "has on investigation not been confirmed." The OED traces examples of "jury-mast" ("Naut. A temporary mast put up in place of one that has been broken or carried away.") and similar nautical expressions, such as jury-rigged, back to 1616. This has nothing to do with the sort of juries involved in law cases. The OED does not suggest any connection between jerry-built and jury-rigged. In fact, they have different meanings.=20 "Jerry-built" means shoddy. "Jury-rigged" means a temporary substitute for something damaged or lost. Neither appears to be an ethnic slur (or even a slur on lawyers). (Trombone content: trombone students often are required to "play a jury" for an audience of or including members of the faculty, in which the students demonstrate their performance skill.) Peter W. Schroth Matthew Stoecker wrote: >=20 > Jury-rigged is actually a corruption of Jerry-rigged, which is a = slur on Germans from WWI. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 10:30:29 -0400 From: "John J. Jenkins" Subject: Re: jerry and jury The saga continues... *sighs* J.J. >===== Original Message From "Peter W. Schroth" ===== >The Oxford English Dictionary lists examples of >"jerry-built" from as far back as 1869. It does not mention >Germans at all, but says an 1884 assertion that the term >commemorates a specific English building firm "has on >investigation not been confirmed." > >The OED traces examples of "jury-mast" ("Naut. A temporary >mast put up in place of one that has been broken or carried >away.") and similar nautical expressions, such as >jury-rigged, back to 1616. This has nothing to do with the >sort of juries involved in law cases. > >The OED does not suggest any connection between jerry-built >and jury-rigged. In fact, they have different meanings. >"Jerry-built" means shoddy. "Jury-rigged" means a temporary >substitute for something damaged or lost. Neither appears >to be an ethnic slur (or even a slur on lawyers). > >(Trombone content: trombone students often are required to >"play a jury" for an audience of or including members of the >faculty, in which the students demonstrate their performance >skill.) > >Peter W. Schroth > >Matthew Stoecker wrote: >> >> Jury-rigged is actually a corruption of Jerry-rigged, which is a slur on Germans from WWI. "I have no pleasure in any man who despises music. It is no invention of ours: it is a gift of God. I place it next to theology. Satan hates music: he knows how it drives the evil spirit out of us." - Martin Luther - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 10:36:06 -0400 From: "Peter W. Schroth" Subject: Re: jerry and jury Sorry. Didn't you notice the trombone content? Peter W. Schroth "John J. Jenkins" wrote: > > The saga continues... *sighs* > > J.J. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 10:41:04 -0400 From: "John J. Jenkins" Subject: Re: jerry and jury My apologies, Peter. I thought it was another debate. Please excuse me. J.J. >===== Original Message From "Peter W. Schroth" ===== >Sorry. Didn't you notice the trombone content? > >Peter W. Schroth > >"John J. Jenkins" wrote: >> >> The saga continues... *sighs* >> >> J.J. >> "I have no pleasure in any man who despises music. It is no invention of ours: it is a gift of God. I place it next to theology. Satan hates music: he knows how it drives the evil spirit out of us." - Martin Luther - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 10:48:57 -0400 From: Xavier Cole Subject: Re: Troll Alert???? 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Raci st language Hello Fellow Trombonists, I may be a little late on my addition to this subject, but I have been out of town and must chime in. While I am not Jewish, I am African-American and a person who holds sensitivities to the usages of language and particularly language that contributes to stereotypes and oppression. I am also a person who has come to know D.J. Kennedy over the past several years through online interactions on and off-list correspondance. My sense is that D.J. was being D.J. and using the aformentioned language for a particular effect, which is usually his M.O. as an artist and a uniquely clever individual. I in no way feel that D.J. is racist. Just a person that utilizes language to suite his needs for particular sintuations. While I was also intially taken aback by the usage, I tried to think of why the language was used on this list and in that way. This was a case of D.J. being himself in a personal correspondance that made its way to a very public forum. I do think that his point could have been made in less offensive terms, but I am not D.J. and free speech does have its place. I do feel that if the use of the language--regardless of the reason--offended any one on this list to which we are all members and usually collegial, there should have been a blanket mea culpa, and we could move on. Because that did not happen, charges of racism started to fly. Those who know D.J. recognized his intentions. Those who do not were rightly offended. The lesson learned is that we all should be more mindful of the audience to which we are writing and should show respect in all of our correspondances, even when we feel we were wronged. Obligatory trombone content. Traveling this weekend, happened onto a vintage vinyl record store and scored a Watrous Manhattan Wildlife Refuge album "Tiger of San Pedro" in mint condition for a shamefully low price. The trombone gods are good, indeed. Xavier Cole Baltimore, MD Moodswings Big Band www.moodswings.com >>> "Avery, Ray (232)" 10/08/03 02:31PM >>> Well put, Steve. Ray Avery Director, Human Resources Harvard Custom Manufacturing, Inc. 607-687-7669 -----Original Message----- From: Steve Gamble [mailto:sgamble@TUCSONSYMPHONY.ORG] Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 2:31 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Troll Alert???? 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language Greetings fellow participants in the universal language, There is insensitivity and there is super sensitivity. I'm not sure which causes the most problems. I live in the gray of life so it is difficult (but, fortunately, not impossible:) for me to make broad generalizations about anything. But I have noticed a trend...the folks that are the quickest to make accusations of prejudice, more often (way more often) than not, possess a well-developed list of characterizations (pre judgments) with which they justify their accusations without having to know one single thing about the persons that are their target of the moment. I suppose it's easier to get through life that way, but it seems kind of lazy to me and maybe a little cowardly...and not very intelligent or should I say intellectual, maybe both. We all make progress as musicians by looking for the similarities between what we are really good at and our next perceptively well-chosen musical challenge. By exploiting those similarities, we're adding to our skills from the standpoint and perspective of our strengths, what we can do, where our confidence lies. If all we see is the differences, for most of us progress comes to a screeching halt...mostly because it's just too damn hard to get a useful point of reference, a frightening and immobilizing place to be. We've all encountered musicians who insist on reinventing the musical wheel every day. Frequently they are among our students and we can change the world for the better by challenging them to prove the merits of choosing to make such an inefficient struggle where the likelihood of failure is practically 100%. These days diversity has been emphasized to the point where we don't seem to be capable of seeing the similarities anymore. No wonder we can't get along. Steve Gamble, Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 (520) 792-9155 x118 (520) 792-9314 fax (520) 991-7056 cel sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org -----Original Message----- From: Michael Shoshani [mailto:mshoshani@SBCGLOBAL.NET] Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 9:42 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Troll Alert???? 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language --- LarryL595@AOL.COM wrote: > I don't know whether Debra Silver is a troll or not, > but as a Jew, there is > no question in my mind that the comment was > thoughtless and racist. This is getting to be rather like John Lennon's offhand comment concerning the popularity of the Beatles with the youth of Britain over the popularity of religion, with one sentence taken completely out of context by an American publication running it secondhand and blowing completely out of proportion, much to Lennon's bewilderment. I am Jewish and do not find DJ's imagery offensive. "To jew one down" is perhaps an unfortunate phrase but one with a long history in the American lexicon. DJ often uses words for their poetic or attention-getting value rather than their connotation or denotation. Read one of his long and winding rants wherein he strings together long chains of similar-sounding words that barely relate to one another. And yes, DJ knows I am Jewish, and has for years. And he does not paint all Jews with the brush that he uses when he expresses his opinions about the Israeli-Palestinian situation. Speaking of which, I have not seen an interjection yet from Eliezer Aharoni...who is an Israeli trombonist on this list. Michael Shoshani Chicago IL ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 07:51:04 -0700 From: Jim Preston Subject: Re: Hagmann valves I have used Thayers (Edwards version) for 7 years, and I haven't had any "hassle" with them, at least not after I stopped using the heavy oil they give you for the linkage. Jim Preston David Musgrove wrote: . However, it does seem that the > Hagmanns are most likely to suit most people; they are also from what I > have heard a lot less hassle than Thayers. Proud Thayer owners please > feel free to comment/contradict. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 08:28:43 -0700 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Offtopic, Re: [TBN-L] Racist? Rubbish! --- "John J. Jenkins" wrote: > Sure, DJ shouldn't > have said that, but > I'm possitive he didn't have any harmful intent behind > it. So am I, but let me put it this way. If I wrote something about "playing like a girl" or made some asinine assertion about white people being unable to play Jazz or some other nonsense, I would have been severely taken to task, wouldn't I? What's different here? I'm sure he curses > the day he every typed that post -- especially since all > of this drama > errupted as a result. I'm not sure he does. He kept stubbornly holding to his position that the people criticizing him were being small-minded and oversensitive. That's why I got into it and tried to make the point calmly and rationally. I don't think the drama is necessarily a bad thing. I think we all learn a lot when we get into a good old-fashioned argument on the list. I think we've gotten pretty dry recently. If you REALLY want to see drama, there's one brewing over at Sam Burtis' forum (forum.samburtis.com). Somebody just posted a link on the Far Corner section to an article accusing Israel of 9/11. If you don't think stereotypes are harmful, just read the first couple of paragraphs of that rubbish. And there's some great trombone discussion there too. I know he'd love to see everyone over there. ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 10:33:50 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee Subject: Re: Troll Alert???? 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Raci st language At 09:48 AM 10/9/2003, Xavier Cole wrote: >I do feel that if the use of the language--regardless of the >reason--offended any one on this list to which we are all members and >usually collegial, there should have been a blanket mea culpa, and we >could move on. Because that did not happen, charges of racism started >to fly. We all say things we deeply regret from time to time. Apologies are difficult, but that really is the only way. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 12:00:24 -0400 From: Xavier Cole Subject: Re: Troll Alert???? 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Raci st language I actually just got through all of my email and realized that D.J. has left the forum. What a tragedy! D.J. I do hope you will reconsider as your views and knowledge ARE needed here and frankly, you are the catalyst for my interest in vintage trombones. I was hoping that we could put this incident behind us. Please reconsider . . . Xavier Cole >>> Craig Parmerlee 10/09/03 11:33AM >>> At 09:48 AM 10/9/2003, Xavier Cole wrote: >I do feel that if the use of the language--regardless of the >reason--offended any one on this list to which we are all members and >usually collegial, there should have been a blanket mea culpa, and we >could move on. Because that did not happen, charges of racism started >to fly. We all say things we deeply regret from time to time. Apologies are difficult, but that really is the only way. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 11:10:56 -0500 From: RWilson Subject: Fw: [TBN-L] Trombones and Other Stuff for Sale ----- Original Message ----- From: "RWilson" To: Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 9:55 AM Subject: [TBN-L] Trombones and Other Stuff for Sale I have collected too much stuff and need to sell some it. Pictures are available on request. If interested, email me at: ronbo3@flash.net Bach 36B trombone, .525 bore, standard wrap, recently overhauled and relacquered. Like new condition, with a new Bach case, very nice horn, $1000 Edwards .525 bore trombone, bell 144CF, standard rotor valve (not Thayer), .525 slide with nickel crook, like new condition, includes older Bach case and extra leadpipes, $1500. Edwards T-DBN slide, .547/.562 dual bore, with nickel crook, like new condition, $600. Edwards TBC-N slide, .547 bore, nickel crook, used less than 1 year, excellent condition, $600 Please email me with any questions, Ron Wilson Principal Trombone, Ft.Worth Symphony ronbo3@flash.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 09:26:49 -0700 From: Chris Tune Subject: Re: Offtopic, Re: [TBN-L] Racist? Rubbish! I much fear the racist who keeps silent and consistently ACTS racist. Those who simply utter racist statements but do not neccesarily ACT racist, are to my mind of much less consequence (they pollute the word soundscape. . .tho'). I recall my consistently racist Uncle Jerry (Gerald I think. . .). On and on he would blather until Aunt Virginia would say: "Oh shut up!, Would Ya?" Then our family could stop puckering their body parts and get on with life! [personally I wanted to punch his lights out a few times!!--shows you how this is HATE speech. . .made me hate him at the time] My friend David Shapiro, author, and coincidentally, orthodox Jew, has told me that Judaism attaches much greater importance to the ACTIONS of a person rather than the SPEECH of a person. I think that is wise. It is easy for people to use consistently "correct" speech but not ACT with responsibility (e.g. many politicians). I personally recommend that we wait to see how people act rather than get convinced by their speech. This whole episode points up one of the severe deficiencies of the internet as we now know it. Often we experience only information and speech. We don't get to experience anything like real ACTION (perhaps seeing a work of art such as a movie, game or animation is the closest we get right now. . .or perhaps a drive to send in mail to a congressman or somesuch effort).. Also, even though the remark might be repugnanat, you can see from the context and remaining content of the message that only negotiation was being discussed. The negotiation was around the price of a trombone. No other offensive content there! It also seems that the internet when exemplfied by a Listserver, acts much like a "stream of conciousness". If we always get into massive diatribes with everyone chiming in with their own "take" on every item, then we are like a concious mind on lots of caffeine or maybe dexedrine. We have massive amounts of statements without great time spent on judgement. Judgement demands that all sides of an issue be "weighed" (assessed, explored, understood, etc. --weighed is simply the old fashioned approximation of the effort). Judgement also implies that their will be an outcome and it will not neccessarily please all the participants. When we send off our mails we are in essence "making a final determination" that this is our position. Funny how races get to be of greater importance than they really are. Scientists will tell you were all of the species Homo Sapiens. Within the species there are some regional adaptations that really are not fundamental differences (amount of adipose tissue, hair texture, lip or nose shape, eye lid shape, skin coloration, etc.). To quote the great philosopher Rodney King: "Can't we all just get along?". Like Frank, "I Play Trombone" and: . . . by the way, I still use Slide-O-Mix once in a while but I've also used Trombotine recently. I like the idea that Slide-O-Mix has detergent in it. It seems to clean my slide. I also tried using Lemon Pledge yesterday. Maybe we can get one of those greatly esteemed endless topics going and "fuggedaboudit" on the racist stuff. Chris Tune ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gabriel Langfur" To: Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 8:28 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Offtopic, Re: [TBN-L] Racist? Rubbish! > --- "John J. Jenkins" wrote: > > Sure, DJ shouldn't > > have said that, but > > I'm possitive he didn't have any harmful intent behind > > it. > > So am I, but let me put it this way. If I wrote something > about "playing like a girl" or made some asinine assertion > about white people being unable to play Jazz or some other > nonsense, I would have been severely taken to task, > wouldn't I? What's different here? > > I'm sure he curses > > the day he every typed that post -- especially since all > > of this drama > > errupted as a result. > > I'm not sure he does. He kept stubbornly holding to his > position that the people criticizing him were being > small-minded and oversensitive. That's why I got into it > and tried to make the point calmly and rationally. > > I don't think the drama is necessarily a bad thing. I think > we all learn a lot when we get into a good old-fashioned > argument on the list. I think we've gotten pretty dry > recently. > > If you REALLY want to see drama, there's one brewing over > at Sam Burtis' forum (forum.samburtis.com). Somebody just > posted a link on the Far Corner section to an article > accusing Israel of 9/11. If you don't think stereotypes are > harmful, just read the first couple of paragraphs of that > rubbish. > > And there's some great trombone discussion there too. I > know he'd love to see everyone over there. > > ===== > Gabe Langfur > Boston, MA > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 12:33:27 -0400 From: richard.bartkus@COX.NET Subject: Sad I hope that DJ will reconsider and stay active on the list. It's a sad day indeed as DJ is an authentic orginal. And those are hard to find these days. I must confess that I didn't follow that thread very closely; I usually delete off-topic or offensive posts and move on. Richard Bartkus Mission Viejo, California Saddleback Valley Community Church Music Ministry PS - I miss Sam too (Sabutin) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 17:36:51 +0100 From: Keith Marr Subject: Re: Big Sigh of Relief Some on the list might confirm this, but it sticks in my memory that Pledge is the Dutch word for urine. Seriously! I'm not taking the . . . Keith in Bb/F/D ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Stoecker" To: Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 2:46 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Big Sigh of Relief Pledge! Matt Stoecker ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric, Leandra, Sara & Jared Edwards To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 10:23 PM Subject: [TBN-L] Big Sigh of Relief So, What's it gonna be?? Thayer or Greenhoe?? With S-O-M or Trombotine? Binak or Al Cass?? Running for cover!!! Eric Edwards bonearzt@earthlink.net "Just shut up and play!" --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.521 / Virus Database: 319 - Release Date: 23/09/2003 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 14:28:01 -0700 From: Ray Horton Subject: Re: FW: [TBN-L] Slide crooks? This is why the 42 bell is closer to your face. The total length is the same, but some of the length is taken up in the larger slide crook and bell crook. Even more for bass trombones. This is why high school kids who march with student-line horns and come home and practice on 42Bs, if they tend to line up their 3rd and 4th positions by sight-proximity to the bell, will play 3rd position flat on the field, and 4th position sharp indoors. They have to learn to get away from the bell dependence. RH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric, Leandra, Sara & Jared Edwards" To: Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 7:33 AM Subject: [TBN-L] FW: [TBN-L] Slide crooks? > Theoretically this makes sense. > But, if you add actual tube length to the crook, don't you have to make > adjustments somewhere else? > I agree with the premise of changing the length as far as percentages go, > but that doesn't translate into actual slide distances. > 32% or two inches on a Bach won't be the same as 32% or two inches on an > Olds if the slides and crooks are of different dimensions. > Just thinking out loud. > Thanks > > Eric > > > Eric Edwards > bonearzt@earthlink.net > "Just shut up and play!" > > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. > [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Peter W. Schroth > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 6:55 AM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Slide crooks? > > Okay, I teach at a polytechnic university, but I'm not an > engineer or a physicist. Perhaps someone else can make this > clearer. > > Jeff, you are correct that, say, lowering the pitch x cents > requires adding more inches of slide if the starting point > is a longer air column. For instance, the distance in > inches from first position to second position is less than > the distance in inches from fourth position to fifth > position. However, the percentage increase in total length > from first to second is the same as the percentage increase > in total length from fourth to fifth. > > However, none of this is affected by the width of the > slide. Both the percentage increase and the number of > inches added are the same to go from fourth position to > fifth position whether you are playing a small bore Bb > trombone that pushes against your neck or an extra large Bb > bass trombone with a slide six inches wide. > > Peter W. Schroth > > Jeff Albert wrote: > > > > Ok. Does two inches change the pitch by x cents, or does y% of change in > > the length change the pitch by x cents? If it is y%, then the positions > are > > not equal on unequal length slides. Right? > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 17:29:52 EDT From: BITEensemble@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Racist? Rubbish! In a message dated 10/9/2003 7:17:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, slide.rule@ADIOS.CO.UK writes: So, the list loses another great contributor because of one or two simple minded fools. The greatest attribute the majority of the Jewish race have is that they can laugh at themselves. That is probably one of the reasons I married into a Jewish family. It's a pity that there are a minority out there who do not have this quality. God, I live in a country where I constantly listen to offensive remarks about my own race, the English. Thank Heaven I can laugh at and enjoy Scottish humour. To be a racist, you have to be uneducated. DJ is one of the more intelligent contributors the list has attracted. His remark was neither racist, nor offensive. DJ, I sincerely hope that you change your mind. I could not agree more. Well said. -Wes ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 23:02:11 +0100 From: Jon Philpott Subject: Re: Big Sigh of Relief Keith Marr wrote: >Some on the list might confirm this, but it sticks in my memory that Pledge >is the Dutch word for urine. > > I think the word you are thinking of is "plasser". I may be wrong also. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 18:53:52 -0400 From: Craig Bryant Subject: Slide creates compression? I was thinking about things today and got into an argument with a friend of mine. Help settle the dispute/// IF... You gliss from F above middle C to a high Bb (7th partial ?).... Is there any compression created from drawing the slide inward against the outward air going in the horn? Thanks Craig Also.. I have a Greg Black 4gs in good shape for sale Its gold and in the medium weight... Make an offer. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 23:03:54 +0000 From: "J.c. Sherman" Subject: Re: Big Sigh of Relief But the BUILD-UP! J.c. > Pledge! > > Matt Stoecker > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Eric, Leandra, Sara & Jared Edwards > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 10:23 PM > Subject: [TBN-L] Big Sigh of Relief > > > So, What's it gonna be?? > > > > > Thayer or Greenhoe?? With S-O-M or Trombotine? Binak or Al Cass?? > > > > Running for cover!!! > > > Eric Edwards > bonearzt@earthlink.net > "Just shut up and play!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 19:26:32 -0400 From: Walter Barrett Subject: Re: FW: [TBN-L] Slide crooks? Thus spake, not Zarathustra, but Ray Horton > This is why the 42 bell is closer to your face. The total length is the > same, but some of the length is taken up in the larger slide crook and bell > crook. Even more for bass trombones. > > This is why high school kids who march with student-line horns and come home > and practice on 42Bs, if they tend to line up their 3rd and 4th positions by > sight-proximity to the bell, will play 3rd position flat on the field, and > 4th position sharp indoors. They have to learn to get away from the bell > dependence. > > RH Ray- That may be part of it, but some can also be attributed to the placement of the handle in relation to the end of the outer slide. Bach 42's have about half the distance that most other horns have. When they play an (in tune) G in 4th, the handle is in about the same place, but the end of the slide (which is what they usually line up with the bell) is past the bell. If you line it up with the bell, it is, as you noted, sharp. Yet another reason to keep your eyes on the music, and your ears on the pitch! Walter Barrett "They who drink beer will think beer." -Washington Irving Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 23:44:59 +0000 From: "J.c. Sherman" Subject: Questions ((... I thought I could stay out of this - I thout it would blow over - Why add to this? - Is this gonna drag on forever? ...)) Some things bewilder me here, and at times through the "J-- me down" crisis I kept asking myself, "why couldn't George Carlin be on this list?" Aside from that flippant thought, other thoughts and questions cross my mind... We've had humorous and not-so-humorous discussions that have drifted off- topic, that have been cut short RAPIDLY by the List Monitor (insult a political leader anyone?). Where the hell has he/she (gotta be politically correct) been on this?! This has been far off topic, and resetting this to "trombone content" was necessary then, and now, futile. Maybe... Language - actually, the written word - is such an INCOMPLETE form of comunication. It misses so much nuance, so much of its character, intent, body language, gesture and BREATH, that it is always difficult to decifer the EXACT intent of any written comunication. The greatest writers are the ones that leave the greatest room for interpretation of their writing, despite (I'm sure) their intent to counteract that possibility. The more exacting we try to be, the more we distress and obfuscate what we are trying to say. I once told my sister (and I got the idea from "Calvin & Hobbes") that the purpose of language is to obscure thought. And that is the only thing it is good for, really. A question can be clearer. But we often don't understand the answers. I live in Cleveland, home of the "Indians" baseball team (who I don't give a damn about). At every game, "Native Americans" protest the name and the mascot, equating "Cheif Wahoo" to some rather unflattering stereotypes of people of African descent. Hardly anyone cares. But the "indians" do. And those of us not of that decent are not in a position to judge whether the name and logo is racist - WE aren't referenced, and WE aren't offended. However, where and how is free-speech to be balanced? There (or, here in Cleveland), the offended are walked on and over. Their voices, and ours, are both present and allowed. But, there's no winning and balance, no argument, and now justice. Not even words, anymore. I cannot judge DJ. I've been on this list a bit, and have started to glean and creat opinions and personalities of the characteres of the TROMBONE-L play. DJ, at first, seemed eccentric. Then just weird. Eventually, I grew to see the almost "conversational poetry" in his approach to communication in this exceedingly limited medium. He tried to be clearer, I would guess, by using a style that led you to follow a certain "stream of his conciousness", and to take his phrasing as that relaying something outside the words he sent. Eventually, we all either "get" him or not. Like him or not, as well. I like 'im! Of our so-called troll, I know little. She was clearly offended, which didn't, in my opinion as a free speech advocate, necessitate an apology or even consideration by DJ, especially if his intent was NOT to offend, but rather to quasi-cummings-ly project an idea, misconstrued by Ms. Silver. But an apology wouldn't have hurt either. The only voice to Judge the list is the one limiting the speech in this forum - The List Monitor. But she has every right to be offended. As do I. Or not. You'll never know... Rant/chat, or opine away. That's free speach. Quote scripture, take the "moral high groud". I'm sorry DJ is gone, and sad the Ms. Silver is hurt. But everyone has the right to express and to feel as they wish, until they are intentionally obusive. But I'll be damned if I'll judge when that line has been crossed until it's my line crossed. Then I'll howl. And the Monitor will jusdge, or not, as the case may be. None of us can, through this medium, fully judge the intent of she who was called troll, or DJ, unless you talk to them in person, or through prolonged, personal contact - which might be what should have happened here. Who knows. It's an idea. It's a thought to be digested or twisted as you all see fit. You'll never know exactly what I mean, and you may judge all you like, which is the risk I take participating in "public discussion". Your expression is no longer your own here - but your mind remains sovereign. J.c.S. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 00:28:43 +0100 From: Keith Marr Subject: Pledge My source for this translation was a BBC comedy show in which the teams were asked what was the connection between Coca Cola, Pledge and the Vauxhall Nova (a car made by GM here in the UK). The connection was that they all translate unfortunately: Coca Cola (apparently) in Chinese translates as "bite the waxed tadpole". Pledge as I said means urine in Dutch. And in Spanish Nova literally means "doesn't go". (No Va) There's no saying that the BBC researchers got it right of course. I have a Dutch speaking friend who I'll ask in the near future. Cheers! Keith in Bb/F/D > Jon Philpott wrote: > > > Keith Marr wrote: > > > Someone on the list might confirm this, but it sticks in my memory > > that Pledge is the Dutch word for urine. > > > > I think the word you are thinking of is "plasser". I may be wrong also. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.521 / Virus Database: 319 - Release Date: 23/09/2003 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 17:06:17 -0700 From: Galen McQuarrie Subject: FW: Carl Hello list, I am forwarding this message from Kevin Stout in Las Vegas. Re: Carl Fontana. We have lost another Trombone Icon. Galen McQuarrie -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Stout [mailto:jazzed5@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Thu 10/9/2003 4:01 PM To: Kevin Stout Cc: Subject: Carl Hello, all, I'm saddened to bring you the news that Carl Fontana died thim morning, no detail available at this time. Peace, Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 20:16:17 -0400 From: Walter Barrett Subject: Re: Questions Thus spake, not Zarathustra, but J.c. Sherman > > We've had humorous and not-so-humorous discussions that have drifted off- > topic, that have been cut short RAPIDLY by the List Monitor (insult a > political leader anyone?). Where the hell has he/she (gotta be politically > correct) been on this?! This has been far off topic, and resetting this > to "trombone content" was necessary then, and now, futile. Maybe... Well, some folks know, but I'll bet most don't, and since you asked... the List Monitor (no, it wasn't me!) has left the entirely voluntary position, due, in part, to threads like the "racist" one, insults, harassment, threats of legal action, in short, being the focus of much abusive behavior, without much in the way of thanks for it. All that, plus job and family demands, made it very easy to decide what had to go. Now if I were the List Monitor (make no mistake, I do not WANT to be), this thread would have been cut off long ago. I do subscribe to another site, BeerAdvocate.com, where off-topic posts are pulled without warning, and repeat offenders find their access revoked, also without warning. In their words- "Beer! Focus!" So guys and gals, since we're down to a skeleton staff, can we just do on our own, what a Monitor would have done for us, were he not so busy just keeping the list RUNNING, let alone checking each post before it's posted. WE'RE ON OUR OWN FOR NOW! TROMBONE! FOCUS!!! If you want to stick up for DJ, fine, go do it on the ACLU site. If you want to voice your frustration about racism, go find some anti-defamation site. While you're thinking about that, send a NICE email to... Listmonitor Trombone-L and be sure to thank him for doing such great work for FREE! TROMBONE! FOCUS!!! Walter Barrett Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 20:49:50 -0400 From: Steve Beck Subject: This was the thread that never ends Someone said a comment that was probably not meant to be racist. Someone else pointed out the comment was racist. I didn't realize just how racist/inflammatory it was until the complaint was registered. I respect the complaint and I certainly learned from it. DJ - I bet you meant no harm. I bet you can see how the statement can be taken as racist, and I bet you wouldn't throw that in anyone's face having the benefit of hindsight. There is no reason to leave - there is every reason to move on with this. Then DanP said, "Upset about the term "jew him down"? Blame Jesus." Uh Dan. Jesus was Jewish. -Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 20:11:44 -0500 From: Harold Smith Subject: All this recent crap Ya' know, I signed up on the List -- not long ago, because it was -- = emphasis on was -- a really neat place to read the discussions of some = really good musicians on the subject of trombones and music in general. = I have been doing more blanket deletes than I care to count. It is a = real waste of my time. I wanted to learn from the pro's about something that I love dearly. = I don't care a thing about reading all of these ethical, ethnic, = politically correct or not correct threads. These are topics best = discussed one on one, eye ball to eye ball. Not aired in emails, where = one can sit behind the safety of a computer terminal.=20 I can't say that I am a contributor yet -- if this keeps up, I might = not care to be -- but, I am/was most definitely willing to learn from = you all. But all of this petty bickering, name calling, getting = offended at innocent remarks, etc. has got to go. Much more of this, = and I'm out of here too. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 20:17:43 -0500 From: Bill Dinwiddie Subject: Fw: [TBN-L] FW: Carl Well, I knew it had to happen, given the state of his health, but I am still very, very saddened by the passing of one of the truly great masters of the trombone: Carl Fontana. I have been alternately awed, amazed and astounded by Carl's playing since I first heard him solo on Intermission Riff, quoting "Martha" in the first few bars. Then his incredible work with the Kai Winding Septet. His wonderful solos with Jimmy Cook's Las Vegas band. I never heard a solo of his that did not stop me in my tracks. He came to Chicago to play at "Rick's Cafe Americaine", on Lake Shore Drive. I went just about every night and had the honor of buying dinner for Carl at a local hangout. What a great guy. Carl, you left us all an encyclopedia on how to play the jazz trombone. I only hope that future generations will honor your great talent for making music and for always making it swing. The last time I ever spoke to him, he said that he wanted to cut back on the technical playing that he had become famous for, because he didn't think that it swung hard enough. Never satisfied. Rest In Peace Bill Dinwiddie billdin@comcast.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Galen McQuarrie" To: Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 7:06 PM Subject: [TBN-L] FW: Carl > Hello list, I am forwarding this message from Kevin Stout in Las Vegas. Re: Carl Fontana. We have lost another Trombone Icon. > > Galen McQuarrie > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kevin Stout [mailto:jazzed5@ix.netcom.com] > Sent: Thu 10/9/2003 4:01 PM > To: Kevin Stout > Cc: > Subject: Carl > > > > Hello, all, > I'm saddened to bring you the news that Carl Fontana died thim morning, > no detail available at this time. > > Peace, > Kevin > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 20:19:27 -0500 From: Jeff Albert Subject: 79H/88H attachment tubing I just picked up a 79H. There is one bend in the F attachment tubing = that is noticeably squarer than the corresponding bend on my 88H. I've seen = lots of 88H's but haven't really handled any other 79Hs. Is this a common difference in the two? Are all 79H's squarer in the first 180 of the attachment? =20 Jeff Albert =20 www.jeffalbert.com =20 =20 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 18:37:44 -0700 From: Trombone-L Monitor Subject: Clarification Mr. Barrett's recent post regarding the list monitor was true. The position is currently vacant, and the list owner (Eric Nicklas) will be handling the list for the short term. The decision for the current list monitor's departure was not made lightly. It was due primarily to overwork and a need to focus on what truly matters in life. Throughout the time spent as list montitor, this individual was subjected to multiple incidents of e-mail abuse, threats of physical harm, threatened legal action and potential character assassination. Disturbing, to say the least. All this abuse over a list intended to further the discussion and study of a fairly ungainly, fully chromatic air-powered tone generation device. With every priviledge, there is responsibility. The priviledge of having a trombone-l through which to discuss trombones and related issues carries with it the responsibility to treat others with respect, to show consideration even if none is shown to you, and to sometimes agree to disagree on a topic, all while remaining courteous and civil. The list monitor position will be changing, but there will always be someone working to help with subscription maintenance and list housekeeping. As stated earlier, Eric Nicklas will be monitoring this address to assist with any situations as he sees fit. I would, in closing, like to include a special note of thank you to the Online Trombone Journal and its founder, Dr. Richard Human, Jr., for the use of this e-mail address hosted through their servers. There are many others who deserve thanks as well: the long-term list members down to the member who may have just subscribed. It is your individual personalities, characters and knowledge which can make this list a vibrant, living thing. Farewell, my friends. I bid you peace. LM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 21:44:51 -0700 From: Ray Horton Subject: Re: Questions Why doesn't DJ just say "sorry" and then we all go on? I don't think he did, did he?. It WAS an offensive remark, even if it didn't bother most of us, just because we let a lot of stuff go by, and DJ posts in such a cute, ee-cummings-on-a-trombone-bong sort of way. But someone was offended, so DJ should have just appologized and let it drop. And we should not jump on the person who was offended, and put her on the defensive, either. RH ----- Original Message ----- From: "J.c. Sherman" To: Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 4:44 PM Subject: [TBN-L] Questions > ((... I thought I could stay out of this - I thout it would blow over - Why > add to this? - Is this gonna drag on forever? ...)) > > Some things bewilder me here, and at times through the "J-- me down" crisis I > kept asking myself, "why couldn't George Carlin be on this list?" > > Aside from that flippant thought, other thoughts and questions cross my > mind... > > We've had humorous and not-so-humorous discussions that have drifted off- > topic, that have been cut short RAPIDLY by the List Monitor (insult a > political leader anyone?). Where the hell has he/she (gotta be politically > correct) been on this?! This has been far off topic, and resetting this > to "trombone content" was necessary then, and now, futile. Maybe... > > Language - actually, the written word - is such an INCOMPLETE form of > comunication. It misses so much nuance, so much of its character, intent, > body language, gesture and BREATH, that it is always difficult to decifer the > EXACT intent of any written comunication. The greatest writers are the ones > that leave the greatest room for interpretation of their writing, despite > (I'm sure) their intent to counteract that possibility. The more exacting we > try to be, the more we distress and obfuscate what we are trying to say. > > I once told my sister (and I got the idea from "Calvin & Hobbes") that the > purpose of language is to obscure thought. And that is the only thing it is > good for, really. A question can be clearer. But we often don't understand > the answers. > > I live in Cleveland, home of the "Indians" baseball team (who I don't give a > damn about). At every game, "Native Americans" protest the name and the > mascot, equating "Cheif Wahoo" to some rather unflattering stereotypes of > people of African descent. Hardly anyone cares. But the "indians" do. And > those of us not of that decent are not in a position to judge whether the > name and logo is racist - WE aren't referenced, and WE aren't offended. > > However, where and how is free-speech to be balanced? There (or, here in > Cleveland), the offended are walked on and over. Their voices, and ours, are > both present and allowed. But, there's no winning and balance, no argument, > and now justice. Not even words, anymore. > > I cannot judge DJ. I've been on this list a bit, and have started to glean > and creat opinions and personalities of the characteres of the TROMBONE-L > play. DJ, at first, seemed eccentric. Then just weird. Eventually, I grew > to see the almost "conversational poetry" in his approach to communication in > this exceedingly limited medium. He tried to be clearer, I would guess, by > using a style that led you to follow a certain "stream of his conciousness", > and to take his phrasing as that relaying something outside the words he > sent. Eventually, we all either "get" him or not. Like him or not, as well. > > I like 'im! > > Of our so-called troll, I know little. She was clearly offended, which > didn't, in my opinion as a free speech advocate, necessitate an apology or > even consideration by DJ, especially if his intent was NOT to offend, but > rather to quasi-cummings-ly project an idea, misconstrued by Ms. Silver. But > an apology wouldn't have hurt either. The only voice to Judge the list is > the one limiting the speech in this forum - The List Monitor. > > But she has every right to be offended. As do I. Or not. You'll never > know... > > Rant/chat, or opine away. That's free speach. Quote scripture, take > the "moral high groud". I'm sorry DJ is gone, and sad the Ms. Silver is > hurt. But everyone has the right to express and to feel as they wish, until > they are intentionally obusive. > > But I'll be damned if I'll judge when that line has been crossed until it's > my line crossed. Then I'll howl. And the Monitor will jusdge, or not, as > the case may be. > > None of us can, through this medium, fully judge the intent of she who was > called troll, or DJ, unless you talk to them in person, or through prolonged, > personal contact - which might be what should have happened here. Who > knows. It's an idea. It's a thought to be digested or twisted as you all > see fit. You'll never know exactly what I mean, and you may judge all you > like, which is the risk I take participating in "public discussion". Your > expression is no longer your own here - but your mind remains sovereign. > > J.c.S. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 21:12:39 -0700 From: Chris Tune Subject: Re: Questions What is all this predjudice against TROLLS? Trolls are creatures too! I mean, just because they live underneath bridges and OCCASIONALLY eat a human being we treat them as though they were freaks! Unfortunately, at times, it seems as though humankind only fears this basically peaceful carnivore. Are we not to try and understand this vastly understudied and overfeared creature? I see a lot of human nature in the troll's general behavior. After all, they live under bridges in order to seek shelter and stay out of the rain. This is exactly like humans. We also live in some kind of shelter. They eat any animal or creature that trys to cross over the bridge they control. They are known to eat billy goats, rabbits, elves, rival trolls, wizards, knights, goblins and even a banshee or two. [note: I've never heard of them eating trombone players before, but I can just imagine them doing so, if the trombonist tried to get over the bridge. . .generally, I think trombone players don't get to the bridge :-) ] So a troll is obviosly a carnivore and due to his/her large size, must consume pretty vast quanities of meat in order to survive. This, too, is much like some life for humans (sometimes, we think of humans as eating lots of fruit and vegetables, but it is not always so!). This heavy meat eating style is particularly common in colder climates like the arctic, parts of Canada and perhaps Russia. If we consume more meat we wear a protective coat of fat to protect us in the winter. So here is yet another simple commonality between ourselves and the much feared trolls. I personally do not speak ill of trolls, since I've never actually met any. I live in the city and have only read of their deeds in books. I do respect any other living creature though, I may fear that creature enough to stay away. I include similar creatures such as Bigfoot, Saskquatch and those little "grey" alien creatures. . .or Great White sharks. MTC: I imagine a Bach 42 BO with the right mouthpiece just might be able to stun a troll long enough for a human to run away and hide! crt ----- Original Message ----- From: "J.c. Sherman" To: Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 4:44 PM Subject: [TBN-L] Questions > ((... I thought I could stay out of this - I thout it would blow over - Why > add to this? - Is this gonna drag on forever? ...)) > > Some things bewilder me here, and at times through the "J-- me down" crisis I > kept asking myself, "why couldn't George Carlin be on this list?" > . > I like 'im! > > Of our so-called troll, I know little. She was clearly offended, which > None of us can, through this medium, fully judge the intent of she who was > called troll, or DJ, unless you talk to them in person, or through prolonged, > personal contact - which might be what should have happened here. Who > knows. It's an idea. It's a thought to be digested or twisted as you all ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 8 Oct 2003 to 9 Oct 2003 (#2003-280) ***************************************************************