Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 7 Oct 2003 to 8 Oct 2003 (#2003-279) Date: Thursday, October 9, 2003 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 57 messages totalling 2568 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. FW: [TBN-L] Conn-Selmer (2) 2. Christmas Music (2) 3. 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language (6) 4. cutbacks at Conn/Selmer 5. Racist language [off-topic] 6. Troll Alert???? 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language (2) 7. Slide crooks? (8) 8. Trombone and Orchestra. 9. Troll Alert???? 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language (2) 10. Toronto Symphony Trombonist (2) 11. Weril (3) 12. Hagmann valves (8) 13. Conn-Selmer (4) 14. Weril///cant beleive its butter 15. Troll Alert???? 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language 16. Troll Alert???? 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language 17. Troll Alert???? 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Raci st language 18. Racist language and Slide crooks? (2) 19. Friedebald Graefe ??? (2) 20. Troll Alert???? Racist language Israelis 21. Philly/Baltimore dealers (2) 22. My earlier posts 23. FW: [TPIN] Re: Help with soldering 24. FW: [TBN-L] Troll Alert???? Racist language Israelis 25. Another Edwards large bore for sale ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 22:11:04 -0700 From: "Eric, Leandra, Sara & Jared Edwards" Subject: FW: [TBN-L] Conn-Selmer I sure hope none of the real craftsmen like Gary Greenhoe and Steve Shires, to name a few, DON"T go the way of Bach!! It's bad enough that Conn is under the Selmer/Bach umbrella, they were really doing some great work recently. And now with plant closings and layoffs, what's next? Melding the Conn & Bach lines?!?!?! Very scary thought!! Eric Edwards bonearzt@earthlink.net "Just shut up and play!" -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Chris Tune Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 10:07 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Conn-Selmer And one day a "Shires" could be just like "Bach". Once, the King, Conn and Bach intruments were made by a small entrepreneur/manufacturer, who got a good reputation for quality design and manufacture. Chris Tune ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gabriel Langfur" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 9:56 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Conn-Selmer > --- Keith Marr wrote: > > Judging from some comments on this list quality had > > already suffered as a > > result of King, Conn and Benge being swallowed up by UMI > > and it could be > > that they'll eventually go abroad for production. > > I'm not sure this is necessarily true. I think we've seen > quality go up in at least the Conn brand since the UMI > merger with King/Benge. > > The quality of Bach and Conn instruments both went down > when they ceased to be family-owned businesses in the > 60s-70s. As they adopted the economy of scale in order to > produce large numbers of student-line instruments, the > consistency of their professional lines suffered. > > Today, in order to get the level of personal attention and > care in hand-manufacturing by highly-skilled craftsmen that > was once available in the Conn and Bach shops, you have to > go to Steve Shires, Mick Rath, Roy Lawler, the Thein > brothers, Manfred Schmelzer, or, I suppose, Edwards. Please > don't take this as an attack on Edwards, but that company > was not started by a guy named Edwards who made trombones > himself - in that sense it's not the same kind of company > as the others I mention. > > I think this is not an unusual situation for instrument > manufacturers in general. The Yamahas and UMIs of the world > will always make great student instruments and some > excellent professional-quality models of nearly all > instruments, but I believe, to get to the highest levels of > musical quality you have to go to the small individually > owned shops...and that has been the case since instruments > have been made throughout history. > > > ===== > Gabe Langfur > Boston, MA > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 22:33:01 -0700 From: Stan Brager Subject: Christmas Music I'm looking for Christmas music scored for a brass quartet graded "elementary" (all can handle 8th notes and dotted notes) for some of the people in a brass class I'm attending. Some of the members in the class are beginners while others have some intermediate experience. Any suggestions will be helpful. Thanks; Stan Stan Brager Trombonist-in-Training ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 22:45:34 -0700 From: Matthew Stoecker Subject: Re: 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language That was uncalled for and offensive. You have lost the opportunity to = take the moral high ground. Please shut your hole. Matt ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Debra Silver=20 To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU=20 Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 9:50 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language So some of your best friends are Jews, I take it? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Drover" To: Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 3:28 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language > From: "Debra Silver" > > > > Isn't this list moderated? Could you please review this racist's > > anti-semitic post? > > > I'm married to a Jewish girl. In no way do I find DJ's post = offensive and > definitely not anti-Semitic. Geez, where ya from? > > A. > > Adrian Drover > ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk > Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 00:38:32 -0700 From: Todd Jonz Subject: Re: cutbacks at Conn/Selmer While the news of the closure of the Conn plant has generated an interesting discussion about the perils of free trade, there's one perspective that hasn't been mentioned yet. South Park fans will recognize it as the "Blame Canada" strategy. Is it possible that Selmer's profits are down due to the economic slowdown and the so-called jobless recovery? Maybe parents just don't have enough disposable income these days to buy band instruments for the kids. Laying the blame at the feet of competition from cheap imports is a terrific way to justify tightening the corporate belt. After all, we're not likely to see a press release from any large company that reads, "Our revenues were down last quarter, and because we're obsessed with short-term profits we've decided to put a couple hundred people out of work," but this is all to frequently the case. Last month Microsoft ceased operation of its free chat services in Europe. Their press release claimed that they were taking this action to protect kids from sexual predators in chat rooms. Many journalists have challenged this explanation, suggesting that not enough of the free chatters were upgrading to Microsoft's subscription chat service, which generates revenue. (None of the premium chat rooms were closed; presumably the sexual predators are welcome there as long as they continue to pay the piper.) IMHO it's wise to read corporate press releases with a healthy dose of skepticism, especially when they contain easy, politically popular explanations for unpopular actions or decisions. -- Todd Jonz tjonz42@yahoo.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 07:01:46 -0400 From: John Burton Subject: Re: Racist language [off-topic] Good grief. Have any of you looked the word "jew" up in the dictionary lately? Quote----------- jew ( P ) Pronunciation Key (j) tr.v. Offensive jewed, jew.ing, jews To bargain shrewdly or unfairly with. Often used with down. To haggle so as to reduce (a price). Often used with down. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- [From Jews' supposedly extortionate practices as moneylenders in the Middle Ages.] Source: The American HeritageR Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright C 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. UnQuote---------- I'll presume a read/write capability. Use of the word in this manner presumes your audience to be as educated and understanding as yourself and presumes they realize the difference between "Jew" and "jew". Further, I doubt you'd ever see the two racial slurs below used as a verb, while the word "jew", as defined above is totally properly used as a verb. End of thread. Sheesh. ~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~= john burton Bach 50B3 Bass Trombone, Charleston NeoPhonic Orchestra South Charleston, West Virginia > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. > [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Debra Silver > Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 12:50 AM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Debra Silver" > To: "Matthew Stoecker" > Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 12:49 AM > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language > > > > It absolutely is racist. Akin to "niggers who like > watermelon" or ":greasy > > wops," etc. I can't believe how insenstive you all are. > ----- Original > > Message ----- > > From: "Matthew Stoecker" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 12:59 AM > > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] 42 bo for 650///deal of the > day--Racist language > > > > > > And while the term may be offensive, using it doesn't make anyone a > > racist (a harsh accusation) than someone who uses the term gyp > > (derogatory for > > gyspies) or welsh (derogatory for the Welsh). It just makes > them ignorant. > > > > Matt Stoecker > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: BITEensemble@AOL.COM > > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > > Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 9:56 PM > > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist > > language > > > > > > In a message dated 10/4/2003 11:48:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > debra.silver@VERIZON.NET writes: > > i thought you wanted to bargain .haggle .. you know > > > jew me down - > > > i really like haggling etc --for guys that like > to do this > > > you gotta mark the stuff up a lot > > for the love... > > > > where I am from (alabama) jew actually means chew > thus.."you know, > > chew me > > down" > > > > Why does everyone on this list seem to take themselves so > seriously > > - > stop > > it, you'll have an ulcer > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 08:12:02 -0500 From: Chris Waage Subject: Re: Troll Alert???? 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language Hey - Looks to me like we have a troll . . . I did a quick search of the digest archives and found no other posts from "Debra Silver". This individual has since taken one comment, pulled it completely out of context, and is trying to blow it up into a major issue on the list. Then, when people ignore the non-issue they're pushing, they start in on "how insensitive we all are" or how THEY'RE the ones being persecuted. I read the original message, and it seemed to me that DJ probably hadn't meant for it to be posted to the list - it seemed more like a private message to whoever he was trading with. "Pay no attention to the troll." "Do not feed the troll." Judicious use of the delete key works pretty darned well for me. Chris -- Chris Waage, Associate Webmaster The Online Trombone Journal "A Website for Trombonists" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 09:35:02 -0400 From: Walter Barrett Subject: Re: 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language Thus spake, not Zarathustra, but Debra Silver > > > > > It absolutely is racist. Akin to "niggers who like watermelon" or ":greasy > wops," etc. I can't believe how insenstive you all are. Not insensitive, just thick-skinned (we are trombonists, after all...) Secondly, Debra, several list members had already gotten on DJ's case well before you jumped into the fray, which, as I recall, was over a week after the original post from DJ. I don't know if the List Monitor did anything about it, but, if you have a concern, the LM is the one to address it to, instead of calling for public flogging. The address is... Listmonitor Trombone-L Thirdly, they're just words, like many others I could use. For instance... raghead, mick, okie, Republican, liberal, holy roller, slant, gook, kaffir, lawyer, etc. Last I heard, free speech was still permitted. Nobody's forcing you to read it, there's always the delete key. Having read many posts from DJ, I've seen nothing that would lead me to believe that he's racist (if he is, he keeps it to himself), because I am taking it all together, not one word out of context. (now if we could get DJ to stop sending his personal correspondence to the list...) Walter Barrett "Patriot: The person who can holler the loudest without knowing what he is hollering about." -Mark Twain Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 09:37:58 -0400 From: Bruce Guttman Subject: Re: Christmas Music Find yourself the Kjos "Christmas Time" series. They are a bunch of march sized books and are available for most brass combinations you can think of. The 1st book (melody) is available in Bb, C, Eb, F, and Bass Clef. The 2nd book is available in Bb and C (no bass clef, unfortunately), the 3d book is available in Bb, C, F, and Bass, while the 4th is available in Bb, Eb, and Bass (maybe more). I use these for pre-concert carol playing with a variable sized brass group (usually 8-10) from my orchestra. We use them as follows: 1st: 2 trumpets and possibly 1 trombone 2nd 1 trumpet, 1 trombone 3rd 2-4 horns 4th: 1-2 trombones and tuba I find having the 1st and 2nd parts doubled down an octave often enhances the sound. Good luck Bruce Guttman Section Leader, Merrimack Valley (MA) Philharmonic ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 09:46:39 EDT From: LarryL595@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Troll Alert???? 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language I don't know whether Debra Silver is a troll or not, but as a Jew, there is no question in my mind that the comment was thoughtless and racist. I found it very offensive. There is no acceptable rationale for using language that a group of people find hurtful. Larry Lerner 2nd chair trombone Livingston Symphony Orchestra Bloomfield Civic Band ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 09:56:54 -0400 From: "John J. Jenkins" Subject: Re: 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language I've know DJ for years I can will vouch for him that he his FAR from a racist. Sure, he expresses himself liberally, but what's wrong with that? That's what makes him one of a kind! In addition, I'm not condoning stereotypes, but I'm sure EVERYONE has used them once or twice in their life. No one is innocent! Debra Silver, it seems to me that you are making something out of nothing! Have a nice day everyone. John J. Jenkins "I have no pleasure in any man who despises music. It is no invention of ours: it is a gift of God. I place it next to theology. Satan hates music: he knows how it drives the evil spirit out of us." - Martin Luther - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 10:23:41 -0400 From: Walter Barrett Subject: Slide crooks? I was wondering why some slide crooks are narrower or wider, is it a tone thing? On my large tenor, the crook is wider, so I can place the mpce. easily on my chops, plus the reach to 7th is shorter. On my small tenor, with a narrower slide, I have to press the gooseneck into my neck to get my chops on the mpce., and 7th is a lot farther out there. It seems to me that a wide-spaced jazz horn would be easier to get around on, because the positions would be closer together, but they aren't made like that. There are different shapes to the crook, too. Kings and smaller Yamahas have a semi-circular curve, while Bach's are sorta squared off. Any thoughts? Walter Barrett "The problem with the world is everyone is a few drinks behind." - Humphrey Bogart Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 09:28:43 -0500 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Re: FW: [TBN-L] Conn-Selmer band program and budget cuts in schools ?? overproduction //saturation of the market //availibility of good used instruments repaired instruments being sold - --------------- what instruments are being made in the factory that is being closed ??? student models or other ??? and what about any merger buyout involvement with jupiter tooling up in korea or possibly kanstul holton blessing yamaha have also increased a marketshare in a shrinking market --how is demand // future demand //projections -------------------- are band programs growing ----standstill --- or shrinking ???? ------------- demolition derby -----marching band ------------ what happens to all the instruments that have been produced ??????? attics garages closets ----e sales ?????? ------------ making a very durable ageless repairable products so at some point will everyone have 5 trombones ???????????? Eric, Leandra, Sara & Jared Edwards wrote: > I sure hope none of the real craftsmen like Gary Greenhoe and Steve Shires, > to name a few, DON"T go the way of Bach!! > It's bad enough that Conn is under the Selmer/Bach umbrella, they were > really doing some great work recently. > And now with plant closings and layoffs, what's next? Melding the Conn & > Bach lines?!?!?! > Very scary thought!! > > Eric Edwards > bonearzt@earthlink.net > "Just shut up and play!" > > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. > [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Chris Tune > Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 10:07 AM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Conn-Selmer > > And one day a "Shires" could be just like "Bach". Once, the King, Conn and > Bach intruments were made by a small entrepreneur/manufacturer, who got a > good reputation for quality design and manufacture. > > Chris Tune > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gabriel Langfur" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 9:56 AM > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Conn-Selmer > > > --- Keith Marr wrote: > > > Judging from some comments on this list quality had > > > already suffered as a > > > result of King, Conn and Benge being swallowed up by UMI > > > and it could be > > > that they'll eventually go abroad for production. > > > > I'm not sure this is necessarily true. I think we've seen > > quality go up in at least the Conn brand since the UMI > > merger with King/Benge. > > > > The quality of Bach and Conn instruments both went down > > when they ceased to be family-owned businesses in the > > 60s-70s. As they adopted the economy of scale in order to > > produce large numbers of student-line instruments, the > > consistency of their professional lines suffered. > > > > Today, in order to get the level of personal attention and > > care in hand-manufacturing by highly-skilled craftsmen that > > was once available in the Conn and Bach shops, you have to > > go to Steve Shires, Mick Rath, Roy Lawler, the Thein > > brothers, Manfred Schmelzer, or, I suppose, Edwards. Please > > don't take this as an attack on Edwards, but that company > > was not started by a guy named Edwards who made trombones > > himself - in that sense it's not the same kind of company > > as the others I mention. > > > > I think this is not an unusual situation for instrument > > manufacturers in general. The Yamahas and UMIs of the world > > will always make great student instruments and some > > excellent professional-quality models of nearly all > > instruments, but I believe, to get to the highest levels of > > musical quality you have to go to the small individually > > owned shops...and that has been the case since instruments > > have been made throughout history. > > > > > > ===== > > Gabe Langfur > > Boston, MA > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 10:10:17 -0500 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Re: Slide crooks? the crooks that try to extract blood on every deal are the worst and of course people who have no sense of humor or any kind of compassion forgiveness and for these people who are consumed with hate discrimination and fault finding in everything please take a close look in the mirror --small minds --ripples in the pond narrow minds and attitudes are much more prevalent than narrow slides ----------------------------------------------------------------- i think besson made a wider slide 500 ?????? i have a narrow slide ny 36 and a martin 547 with narrow slide these are ok and playable but a martin 500 b/f [yeah] built on with a standard width [narrow] slide is not ergonomic ----the narrowest horn i have seen is a slant braced bundy made in the deco era long stretched out only a person with an extremely thin thin neck with the propensity for the study of the obscure could play it --it might be a highly valuable status symbol in certain cultures heretofore undiscovered -------------------------------- the wildest wide slide came on a selmer paris largo b/f the rotor linkage in on the inside rather than outside so people with ethnic or religious beliefs might have to put on a tali-guard -or beard saver --- or a head bag to prevent entanglement with pernicious detractors in the lower range of humanity Walter Barrett wrote: > I was wondering why some slide crooks are narrower or wider, is it a tone > thing? On my large tenor, the crook is wider, so I can place the mpce. > easily on my chops, plus the reach to 7th is shorter. On my small tenor, > with a narrower slide, I have to press the gooseneck into my neck to get my > chops on the mpce., and 7th is a lot farther out there. It seems to me that > a wide-spaced jazz horn would be easier to get around on, because the > positions would be closer together, but they aren't made like that. There > are different shapes to the crook, too. Kings and smaller Yamahas have a > semi-circular curve, while Bach's are sorta squared off. > > Any thoughts? > > Walter Barrett > > "The problem with the world is everyone is a few drinks behind." > - Humphrey Bogart > > > Yamaha Artist/Clinician > Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones > Euphonium > Bass Trumpet > Tuba ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 17:15:28 +0200 From: =?us-ascii?B?U29yZW4gQm9nbw==?= Subject: Re: Trombone and Orchestra. For symphony orch. arrangement see the Christian Lindberg site. The link is a bit tricky: http://www.tarrodi.se/cl/christian.asp - once there click on "Repertoire" and then on "Full repertoire list & Programme Notes" in the middle of the page. The link to the right is for Edition Tarrodi- www.tarrodi.se - they have the Morceau arrangement as rental material and as sales material. The Rimskij-Korsalov: besides the original wind-band arrangement I have heard Jesper Juul Sorensen of the Danish Radio Symphony Orchestra with a Brass Band arr. - don?t know the source of the arrangement though - possibly by Jesper himself.. Soren Bogoe SBConsult - SBConsult ApS - SE# 2565 0093 Engsvinget 51 - DK 2400 Kobenhavn NV - Denmark Tel +45 3828 1853 - Mobile +45 2082 1853 - eFax +44 870 831 5310 mailto:sb@sbconsult.net > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On > Behalf Of A. Michael Brown > Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 10:34 PM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: [TBN-L] Trombone and Orchestra. > > Hello All, > > The Tuba player in our orchestra has asked me to find out if the 2 > following pieces have arrangements (For trombone.) with orchestra. And .... If > so, where they could be purchased or rented. > #1 - Guilmant , Morceau Symphonic. > #2 - Rimsky-Korsakov, Concerto. > Thanks for the help ! > Sincerely, > Mike Brown, > Phoenix > Symphony ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 16:20:08 +0100 From: Keith Marr Subject: Re: Troll Alert???? 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language To all listers Come one guys, you know better than this. Once a thread degenerates in personal abuse you just leave it alone. Please let this be the last posting on the issue, or I'll start the Slide O Mix thread again! Keith in Bb/F/D --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.521 / Virus Database: 319 - Release Date: 23/09/2003 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 08:44:01 -0700 From: Chris Tune Subject: Re: Toronto Symphony Trombonist Anyone know anyone from the Toronto Symphony? Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Tune" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Toronto Symphony Trombonist > I need to communicate to someone in the Toronto Symphony (well. . . ."need" > is a bit exaggerated. . .). > > I can resolve a mystery as to why an additional sticker mysteriously > appeared on the much stickered locker backstage at the Toronto Symphony. [I > don't know who in the orchestra has the heavily stickered locker, but it was > really cool, so someone I know was inspired to donate an additional, > "mystery" sticker] > > I was through there recently touring and know when, where, why and how the > mysterious sticker was placed. . . > > heh!, heh! > > Chris Tune > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 16:45:16 +0100 From: Keith Marr Subject: Weril I've been offered a Weril 2-valve bass trombone by a local dealer for £850. Are these a good buy? Keith in Bb/F/D (yes I know - I'd need to change my signature!) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.521 / Virus Database: 319 - Release Date: 23/09/2003 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 16:47:06 +0100 From: Keith Marr Subject: Hagmann valves I'm considering upgrading my TR181 Holton bass to one of the modern rotor systems. I'm quite impressed by Gary Greenhoe's kits and not so keen on Thayers. Can someone let me know what they think about Hagmann valves please? Keith in Bb/F/D --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.521 / Virus Database: 319 - Release Date: 23/09/2003 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 10:53:53 -0500 From: Eric & Candice Swanson Subject: Re: Conn-Selmer D.J. Kennedy wrote: >band program and budget cuts in schools ?? >overproduction //saturation of the market //availability of good used >instruments > repaired instruments being sold - >--------------- > what instruments are being made in the factory that is being closed ??? >student models or other ??? > > > That's a good point. If it's the factory I visited in Elkhart years ago, it's where they make mostly the plastic student line clarinets. That's almost all they were doing there when I was there. At the time they were doing the padding and lacquering of the Selmer Mk VII saxes there too, but not building the saxes. So this isn't the Bach factory they are closing here! Since UMI already was making Armstrong and Artley flutes and clarinets in another factory, I believe in Nogales, AZ where labor is cheaper and not unionized, you can see that it might make some business sense to make all your plastic clarinets in one location. I haven't heard anything about Conn-Selmer moving their production to China or anyplace like that. I feel sorry for anyone in Elkhart who is losing their job, but this isn't anything new, and it certainly isn't just happening in the musical instrument business. Another thing that is hurting the band instrument business is ebay. Why go to the music store and buy a trombone for $800 when you can get one on ebay for $200-300 that looks good. (Never mind that it might need $100 worth of work to make it playable). Even the pawn shops are selling their horns on ebay, so there are no good deals anymore. Go in a pawn shop these days... they're all but empty. Also, twenty years ago Edwards and Shires, etc., didn't exist. So there's a lot more competition these days, from American companies. Eric Swanson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 08:57:11 -0700 From: Steve Gamble Subject: Re: Toronto Symphony Trombonist Here Chris. Knock yourself out. http://www.tsomusicians.com/names/index.html#The%20Index%20of%20Musician s Steve Gamble, Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 (520) 792-9155 x118 (520) 792-9314 fax (520) 991-7056 cel sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org -----Original Message----- From: Chris Tune [mailto:crtune@ADELPHIA.NET] Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 8:44 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Toronto Symphony Trombonist Anyone know anyone from the Toronto Symphony? Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Tune" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Toronto Symphony Trombonist > I need to communicate to someone in the Toronto Symphony (well. . . ."need" > is a bit exaggerated. . .). > > I can resolve a mystery as to why an additional sticker mysteriously > appeared on the much stickered locker backstage at the Toronto Symphony. [I > don't know who in the orchestra has the heavily stickered locker, but it was > really cool, so someone I know was inspired to donate an additional, > "mystery" sticker] > > I was through there recently touring and know when, where, why and how the > mysterious sticker was placed. . . > > heh!, heh! > > Chris Tune > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 11:07:34 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee Subject: Re: Conn-Selmer At 10:53 AM 10/8/2003, Eric & Candice Swanson wrote: >Another thing that is hurting the band instrument business is ebay. Why >go to the music store and buy a trombone for $800 when you can get one >on ebay for $200-300 that looks good. (Never mind that it might need >$100 worth of work to make it playable). Even the pawn shops are >selling their horns on ebay, so there are no good deals anymore. Go in >a pawn shop these days... they're all but empty. As a person interested in recycling, I think that's a good thing. But I don't know that it radically changes the business. After all, used horns have always been sold. The difference today is that they are bringing a better price because you get a level playing field with global buyers. It seems like that should actually HELP new instrument manufacturers. With eBay bringing up the price of used gear, that should make new equipment more attractive. Two things would help big time: 1) getting more students (and school systems) into music programs. 2) Imposing trade restrictions that force China to adhere to labor, workplace, and environmental standards comparable to the first world. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 11:22:32 -0500 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Re: Weril///cant beleive its butter there were 3 weril b bones recently on e bay -- before that a gagliardi 547 g bell -that i negotiated for from the same seller ------i called deg several times and e mailed to see how these could have landed on the bay -no reply to e mails to d getzen but i talked to him ------------ play results of the horn ---one piece bell !!! ---pretty nice bach style tone flaws --small side tuning slide tubing way too small so small i picked up bell by tuning bow -and whoosh --the bell dropped off degs answer -get a tech to expand ---way way out of spec flaw no. two --suspicious spots on right inner --in plating -time will tell if its a plating failure FLAW no 3 ---rotor bearing plate not seated down completely cap will not go on completely --but no side play so far ---------------- slide taper ---almost bach -but not conn --might as well make it fit ??????/ -------- case is better than bach with nice accessory package of lubes ------------------------ so based upon this sample ---a brass tech will be necessary to fit in // adjust //go over horn // ------------- 3 leadpipes plus extra threaded top to add your own bottom pipe to this is a nice feature -------------------- looks like a good deal if you can get technical support and parts seems to be a very small item to deg but of course if you get one and there are several things that add up to hum -they are trying very hard but i cant believe its butter Keith Marr wrote: > I've been offered a Weril 2-valve bass trombone by a local dealer for £850. > Are these a good buy? > > Keith in Bb/F/D > (yes I know - I'd need to change my signature!) > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.521 / Virus Database: 319 - Release Date: 23/09/2003 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 11:27:24 -0500 From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" Subject: Re: Conn-Selmer On Wed, 8 Oct 2003, Eric & Candice Swanson wrote: > That's a good point. If it's the factory I visited in Elkhart years > ago, it's where they make mostly the plastic student line clarinets. Over on the tuba list someone had posted a newspaper article which made it seem it was a *piano* factory which was closing. I called Mr. Greenhoe's former colleague Mr. Rusk and asked him just what factory it was. He told me it was a woodwind plant. Not that that's any comfort to those employed therein, but it's not a brass plant. Carole Nowicke cnowicke@indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 09:41:46 -0700 From: Michael Shoshani Subject: Re: Troll Alert???? 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language --- LarryL595@AOL.COM wrote: > I don't know whether Debra Silver is a troll or not, > but as a Jew, there is > no question in my mind that the comment was > thoughtless and racist. This is getting to be rather like John Lennon's offhand comment concerning the popularity of the Beatles with the youth of Britain over the popularity of religion, with one sentence taken completely out of context by an American publication running it secondhand and blowing completely out of proportion, much to Lennon's bewilderment. I am Jewish and do not find DJ's imagery offensive. "To jew one down" is perhaps an unfortunate phrase but one with a long history in the American lexicon. DJ often uses words for their poetic or attention-getting value rather than their connotation or denotation. Read one of his long and winding rants wherein he strings together long chains of similar-sounding words that barely relate to one another. And yes, DJ knows I am Jewish, and has for years. And he does not paint all Jews with the brush that he uses when he expresses his opinions about the Israeli-Palestinian situation. Speaking of which, I have not seen an interjection yet from Eliezer Aharoni...who is an Israeli trombonist on this list. Michael Shoshani Chicago IL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 17:52:25 +0100 From: David Musgrove Subject: Re: Hagmann valves Hi Keith I can't say anything about the longer term maintenance, but I went and tried Mick Rath's trombones the other week, and the Hagmanns blew very openly and operated very easily. I'm certainly converted! There are three things about valves that people seem to have been playing with to try and improve them - (1) maintaining a circular cross section to the tubing, (2) decreasing the amount of deviation in the direction of the air flow, and (3) decreasing the weight of the valve (i.e. making the valve rotor as light as possible, either through machining it down or constructing it from tubing). I think all the new valve designs do (1); Thayer and Hagmann do (2); Greenhoe, Kanstul (see Steve Ferguson's site for more information) and Hagmann do (3). To summarise, only the Hagmanns seem to tackle all three areas (Thayers may be lighter than I think, but they've never really felt very light to me). Now, I don't know how important each of the three is; I don't even know if there is one answer to this question for everyone. However, it does seem that the Hagmanns are most likely to suit most people; they are also from what I have heard a lot less hassle than Thayers. Proud Thayer owners please feel free to comment/contradict. BTW, please read "axial flow" everywhere I have written Thayer; I call vacuum cleaners Hoovers as well! David Musgrove -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Keith Marr Sent: 08 October 2003 16:47 To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] Hagmann valves I'm considering upgrading my TR181 Holton bass to one of the modern rotor systems. I'm quite impressed by Gary Greenhoe's kits and not so keen on Thayers. Can someone let me know what they think about Hagmann valves please? Keith in Bb/F/D --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.521 / Virus Database: 319 - Release Date: 23/09/2003 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 18:01:35 +0100 From: David Musgrove Subject: Re: Troll Alert???? 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language OK Keith, time for the Slide-O-Mix ... -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael Shoshani Sent: 08 October 2003 17:42 To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Troll Alert???? 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language --- LarryL595@AOL.COM wrote: > I don't know whether Debra Silver is a troll or not, > but as a Jew, there is > no question in my mind that the comment was > thoughtless and racist. This is getting to be rather like John Lennon's offhand comment concerning the popularity of the Beatles with the youth of Britain over the popularity of religion, with one sentence taken completely out of context by an American publication running it secondhand and blowing completely out of proportion, much to Lennon's bewilderment. I am Jewish and do not find DJ's imagery offensive. "To jew one down" is perhaps an unfortunate phrase but one with a long history in the American lexicon. DJ often uses words for their poetic or attention-getting value rather than their connotation or denotation. Read one of his long and winding rants wherein he strings together long chains of similar-sounding words that barely relate to one another. And yes, DJ knows I am Jewish, and has for years. And he does not paint all Jews with the brush that he uses when he expresses his opinions about the Israeli-Palestinian situation. Speaking of which, I have not seen an interjection yet from Eliezer Aharoni...who is an Israeli trombonist on this list. Michael Shoshani Chicago IL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 19:11:12 +0200 From: Ben van Dijk Subject: Hagmann valves I'm considering upgrading my TR181 Holton bass to one of the modern rotor systems. I'm quite impressed by Gary Greenhoe's kits and not so keen on Thayers. Can someone let me know what they think about Hagmann valves please? Keith in Bb/F/D I play Hagmann valves on both my Thein bass and Contrabass trombones and can tell you they are just great. I have them on my bass now for more then 3 years and they always work first class, are easy to clean and maintain, they play really super, open but still with a good valve feel, something I like. I never had valves that made my bones so equal through the registers and I played all of them except the Greenhoe. I can recommend them for 100%. All the best, Ben van Dijk Basstrombone Rotterdam Philharmonic Rotterdam Conservatory Royal Northern College of Music, Manchester www.basstrombone.nl ben@basstrombone.nl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 13:21:16 EDT From: SteveInside@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Hagmann valves In a message dated 08/10/03 17:56:13 GMT Daylight Time, david.musgrove@BLUESEALSOFTWARE.COM writes: > I can't say anything about the longer term maintenance, but I went and > tried Mick Rath's trombones the other week ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Keith, we talked about repair persons recently and for what it's worth, I've had work done on a 3B at Rath and they were fast, very professional and allowed me to keep taking the horn back until I was satisfied. Regards Steve C ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 11:46:12 -0600 From: Dennis Clason Subject: Re: Slide crooks? Walter, > > I was wondering why some slide crooks are narrower or wider, is it a tone > thing? On my large tenor, the crook is wider, so I can place the mpce. > easily on my chops, plus the reach to 7th is shorter. On my small tenor, > with a narrower slide, I have to press the gooseneck into my neck > to get my > chops on the mpce., and 7th is a lot farther out there. It seems > to me that > a wide-spaced jazz horn would be easier to get around on, because the > positions would be closer together, but they aren't made like that. There > are different shapes to the crook, too. Kings and smaller Yamahas have a > semi-circular curve, while Bach's are sorta squared off. > > Any thoughts? As I heard the story (second hand from someone who heard it from Filio (sp)), when Vincent Bach designed the model 42, he intended to use the same handslide width as he used on the model 36. In production, something got screwed up or mistranslated, and the initial model 42s were built on the model 50 (bass) jigs, using wide crooks. It was a mistake, but it worked well for some folks, and it stuck. As far as crook shapes go, according to our little brothers who play the tiny (tinny?) trumpet, round (single radius) crooks play differently than square (double radius) crooks. Bach uses double radius slide crooks and single radius tuning slides on all their trombones. King uses single radius crooks top and bottom. I haven't played a Bach slide on a King bell, nor vice versa. I'm sure there is some difference, and I'm equally sure I couldn't tell what it is. You might, though. The crook width should not affect the distance to 7th position, although it can affect the slide length and hence, whether 7th exists at all on the instrument. The distance between positions is a physics thing, and the first-order effects are going to dominate there. Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 18:01:20 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language > > > Isn't this list moderated? Could you please review this racist's > > > anti-semitic post? I'm Jewish and find "jew me down" to be offensive, but not to the point of raising hell about it. But what I do find odd is that it was Jesus who forbade his followers from being money lenders. He didn't forbid his followers to borrow money, though. And so the Jews became the money lenders. Upset about the World Jewish Banking Conspiracy? Blame Jesus. Upset about the term "jew him down"? Blame Jesus. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Share your photos without swamping your Inbox. Get Hotmail Extra Storage today! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 11:31:12 -0700 From: Steve Gamble Subject: Re: Troll Alert???? 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language Greetings fellow participants in the universal language, There is insensitivity and there is super sensitivity. I'm not sure which causes the most problems. I live in the gray of life so it is difficult (but, fortunately, not impossible:) for me to make broad generalizations about anything. But I have noticed a trend...the folks that are the quickest to make accusations of prejudice, more often (way more often) than not, possess a well-developed list of characterizations (pre judgments) with which they justify their accusations without having to know one single thing about the persons that are their target of the moment. I suppose it's easier to get through life that way, but it seems kind of lazy to me and maybe a little cowardly...and not very intelligent or should I say intellectual, maybe both. We all make progress as musicians by looking for the similarities between what we are really good at and our next perceptively well-chosen musical challenge. By exploiting those similarities, we're adding to our skills from the standpoint and perspective of our strengths, what we can do, where our confidence lies. If all we see is the differences, for most of us progress comes to a screeching halt...mostly because it's just too damn hard to get a useful point of reference, a frightening and immobilizing place to be. We've all encountered musicians who insist on reinventing the musical wheel every day. Frequently they are among our students and we can change the world for the better by challenging them to prove the merits of choosing to make such an inefficient struggle where the likelihood of failure is practically 100%. These days diversity has been emphasized to the point where we don't seem to be capable of seeing the similarities anymore. No wonder we can't get along. Steve Gamble, Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 (520) 792-9155 x118 (520) 792-9314 fax (520) 991-7056 cel sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org -----Original Message----- From: Michael Shoshani [mailto:mshoshani@SBCGLOBAL.NET] Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 9:42 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Troll Alert???? 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language --- LarryL595@AOL.COM wrote: > I don't know whether Debra Silver is a troll or not, > but as a Jew, there is > no question in my mind that the comment was > thoughtless and racist. This is getting to be rather like John Lennon's offhand comment concerning the popularity of the Beatles with the youth of Britain over the popularity of religion, with one sentence taken completely out of context by an American publication running it secondhand and blowing completely out of proportion, much to Lennon's bewilderment. I am Jewish and do not find DJ's imagery offensive. "To jew one down" is perhaps an unfortunate phrase but one with a long history in the American lexicon. DJ often uses words for their poetic or attention-getting value rather than their connotation or denotation. Read one of his long and winding rants wherein he strings together long chains of similar-sounding words that barely relate to one another. And yes, DJ knows I am Jewish, and has for years. And he does not paint all Jews with the brush that he uses when he expresses his opinions about the Israeli-Palestinian situation. Speaking of which, I have not seen an interjection yet from Eliezer Aharoni...who is an Israeli trombonist on this list. Michael Shoshani Chicago IL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 14:31:12 -0400 From: "Avery, Ray (232)" Subject: Re: Troll Alert???? 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Raci st language Well put, Steve. Ray Avery Director, Human Resources Harvard Custom Manufacturing, Inc. 607-687-7669 -----Original Message----- From: Steve Gamble [mailto:sgamble@TUCSONSYMPHONY.ORG] Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 2:31 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Troll Alert???? 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language Greetings fellow participants in the universal language, There is insensitivity and there is super sensitivity. I'm not sure which causes the most problems. I live in the gray of life so it is difficult (but, fortunately, not impossible:) for me to make broad generalizations about anything. But I have noticed a trend...the folks that are the quickest to make accusations of prejudice, more often (way more often) than not, possess a well-developed list of characterizations (pre judgments) with which they justify their accusations without having to know one single thing about the persons that are their target of the moment. I suppose it's easier to get through life that way, but it seems kind of lazy to me and maybe a little cowardly...and not very intelligent or should I say intellectual, maybe both. We all make progress as musicians by looking for the similarities between what we are really good at and our next perceptively well-chosen musical challenge. By exploiting those similarities, we're adding to our skills from the standpoint and perspective of our strengths, what we can do, where our confidence lies. If all we see is the differences, for most of us progress comes to a screeching halt...mostly because it's just too damn hard to get a useful point of reference, a frightening and immobilizing place to be. We've all encountered musicians who insist on reinventing the musical wheel every day. Frequently they are among our students and we can change the world for the better by challenging them to prove the merits of choosing to make such an inefficient struggle where the likelihood of failure is practically 100%. These days diversity has been emphasized to the point where we don't seem to be capable of seeing the similarities anymore. No wonder we can't get along. Steve Gamble, Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 (520) 792-9155 x118 (520) 792-9314 fax (520) 991-7056 cel sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org -----Original Message----- From: Michael Shoshani [mailto:mshoshani@SBCGLOBAL.NET] Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 9:42 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Troll Alert???? 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language --- LarryL595@AOL.COM wrote: > I don't know whether Debra Silver is a troll or not, > but as a Jew, there is > no question in my mind that the comment was > thoughtless and racist. This is getting to be rather like John Lennon's offhand comment concerning the popularity of the Beatles with the youth of Britain over the popularity of religion, with one sentence taken completely out of context by an American publication running it secondhand and blowing completely out of proportion, much to Lennon's bewilderment. I am Jewish and do not find DJ's imagery offensive. "To jew one down" is perhaps an unfortunate phrase but one with a long history in the American lexicon. DJ often uses words for their poetic or attention-getting value rather than their connotation or denotation. Read one of his long and winding rants wherein he strings together long chains of similar-sounding words that barely relate to one another. And yes, DJ knows I am Jewish, and has for years. And he does not paint all Jews with the brush that he uses when he expresses his opinions about the Israeli-Palestinian situation. Speaking of which, I have not seen an interjection yet from Eliezer Aharoni...who is an Israeli trombonist on this list. Michael Shoshani Chicago IL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 20:41:07 +0100 From: David Musgrove Subject: Re: 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language Dear oh dear Dan. Jesus did not forbid his followers from lending money, only from trying to benefit from it. In fact, they were encouraged to lend to those in need: Matthew 5:42 "Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." Luke 6:34-35 "And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners', expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back." The Jews were given the same exhortation by God, via Moses: Exodus 22:25 (or 22:24 in the Torah) "If you lend money to one of my people among you who is needy, do not be like a moneylender; charge him no interest." Please get your facts straight before posting nonsense like this. David Musgrove -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Daniel Pliskin Sent: 08 October 2003 19:01 To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language > > > Isn't this list moderated? Could you please review this racist's > > > anti-semitic post? I'm Jewish and find "jew me down" to be offensive, but not to the point of raising hell about it. But what I do find odd is that it was Jesus who forbade his followers from being money lenders. He didn't forbid his followers to borrow money, though. And so the Jews became the money lenders. Upset about the World Jewish Banking Conspiracy? Blame Jesus. Upset about the term "jew him down"? Blame Jesus. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Share your photos without swamping your Inbox. Get Hotmail Extra Storage today! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 14:58:03 -0500 From: Dean McCarty Subject: Re: Weril I don't know how their bass trombones are, but their little four valve Bb tuba is a great instrument... Dean McCarty freelance trombonist, Houston area ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Marr" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 10:45 AM Subject: [TBN-L] Weril > I've been offered a Weril 2-valve bass trombone by a local dealer for £850. > Are these a good buy? > > Keith in Bb/F/D > (yes I know - I'd need to change my signature!) > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.521 / Virus Database: 319 - Release Date: 23/09/2003 > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 15:00:02 -0500 From: Todd Slothower Subject: Re: Hagmann valves I played a new Bach 42 with the Hagmann valve and found it to be "leaky" with an uncertain tone center when pushed. I was not impressed, but maybe it was a bad one. Best of luck! Todd Slothower Moline, IL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 13:31:14 -0700 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Racist language and Slide crooks? I really didn't want to get involved in this one...but I just have to jump in. D.J., with all respect and affection I have to say I think you made the first wrong on this one. Your first private post, with the "jew me down" phrase, probably shouldn't have gone to the list at all, but since it did, we all had occasion to read it. You can't hit delete in advance unless you absolutely know you don't want to read posts from someone in particular. The word nigger hasn't always been intended hatefully when it's been used by white people, but that doesn't make it any less offensive to use it now. It's a word that has a particular connotation that is now unacceptable in our diverse society. Of course, it's been appropriated in the subculture for something else entirely...I don't feel qualified to make any judgements about that, but I certainly know, without a doubt, that it is completely unacceptable for me, as a white guy, to call anybody a nigger for any reason. I think the phrase "jew me down" is just as unacceptable in the larger society. It comes from too hurtful a stereotype, and regardless of how it's been used in the past, habits have to change to reflect changes in society. --- "D.J. Kennedy" wrote: > the crooks that try to extract blood on every deal are > the worst D.J., I think you're just digging your hole deeper here. Now it looks like you're justifying your comments. Please, please, please stop fighting back on this one. Please, let's let this subject drop, and please, D.J., consider it a lesson learned. Times change, cultures change, and the ways we use language have to change with them. > and of course people who have no sense of humor I didn't read any irony in your original post. If I did, I might agree with you. or > any kind > of compassion forgiveness and for these people who > are consumed > with hate discrimination and fault finding in > everything please take > a close look in the mirror --small minds --ripples > in the pond > narrow minds and attitudes are much more prevalent > than narrow slides It's easy to say that people are being small-minded when they are sensitive about language...but language is powerful. The more we use phrases like "jew me down," the longer it takes to break down the cultural stereotypes held in the minds of the ignorant and REALLY small-minded. Enough for now. ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 16:35:10 -0400 From: David Carter Subject: Re: Hagmann valves I've tried Hagmann vavles on only one bass bone, a Besson, and they worked just fine. Since I haven't had the chance to compare similar horns with all the different vavles available, it's hard to say how they compare with other vavles, but it's clear they are a usable valve, more free blowing than regular rotarys. The general opinion of players on this group seems to be that other valves, such as Thayers, or Greenhoes may be a better choice. If buying new I would buy Thayers for large orchestra and Greenhoes for anything else. But if I happened to a set of Hagmann valves I would certainly use them to upgrade one of my old horns. Having said that I would not spend the money to buy new valves to upgrade a Holton bass tronbone. They play pretty good, but almost everything has to be changed to make them play their best. While some of the earliest Holtons play much better than the 181s, in my experience changing everything would make it a better horn. A Bach 50 pipe, or one of th! e Edwards pipes will help. a Bach or Conn, or Shires, or Osman, or even a 1960's vintage holton bell will help the sound. A heavy slide such as bach or eduards is helpful for loud playing. And lastly an all new vavle section, Thayers, or Greenhoes, or Hagmanns will help. Trouble is by the time you've replace most of it, you might as well just buy a new horn. So unless your'e just in love with the Holton sound, I would just buy a better horn in the first place. And that's my Honest opinion. David Carter who has 2 holton basses but finds them fun to play once in a while, but more limiting than his bach or eduards. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 13:36:09 -0700 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Hagmann valves --- Keith Marr wrote: > I'm considering upgrading my TR181 Holton bass to one of > the modern rotor > systems. I'm quite impressed by Gary Greenhoe's kits and > not so keen on > Thayers. Can someone let me know what they think about > Hagmann valves > please? They are VERY nice when they are good, tight, and well-installed. Open kinda like thayers, but with a little more pitch center and firmness to the articulation like rotors. They are, however, mechanically touchy like some thayers, and prone to be leaky, also like some thayers. In those cases, they make the whole instrument play like it's got a big hole in it. ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 17:18:54 EDT From: MikeSuter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Hagmann valves Hi David & All, I agree with most of what you've said, including: << . . . So unless you're just in love with the Holton sound . . . >> which is why a lot of people "change everything" to retain that sound. All The Best, Mike ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 16:40:51 -0500 From: Mike Mathews Subject: Re: Weril Dean McCarty said: To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU I don't know how their bass trombones are, but their little four valve Bb tuba is a great instrument... I have to agree with Dean. I purchased a 3/4 size four-valve Weril tuba a couple of years ago (got rid of my old Miraphone). It's a great doubling horn for a bass trombonist. The quality of workmanship seems to be excellent. I would imagine that the same could be said about their trombones. Mike Mathews Professor Emeritus Missouri Western State College ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 17:12:53 -0500 From: "John J. Jenkins" Subject: Friedebald Graefe ??? Hello all. I need to comment briefly on the bio of Friedebald Graefe for a Perfomance class I attend, but I don't know a thing about the man. Is there anyone out there that could give me some insight as to what were his other contributions (if any), birthdate, major events in his life, etc. I'd greatly appreciate it! Thank you. John J. Jenkins ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 18:17:31 -0400 From: "John J. Jenkins" Subject: Re: Friedebald Graefe ??? Oh yeah. I forgot to mention that he's responsible for his famous trombone Concerto. J.J. "I have no pleasure in any man who despises music. It is no invention of ours: it is a gift of God. I place it next to theology. Satan hates music: he knows how it drives the evil spirit out of us." - Martin Luther - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 00:26:50 +0100 From: Edward Solomon Subject: Re: 42 bo for 650///deal of the day--Racist language David Musgrove said: "The Jews were given the same exhortation by God, via Moses: Exodus 22:25 (or 22:24 in the Torah) "If you lend money to one of my people among you who is needy, do not be like a moneylender; charge him no interest." Please get your facts straight before posting nonsense like this." I will confess to not having followed this thread from the start. Sadly, however, whilst this is strictly off-topic, I feel it does beg a response. The quotation you have provided, David, refers to one specific instance in the Torah (yes, I am, like Daniel, also a Jew and proud of it). The mitzvah (or commandment) is to extend free loans to the needy. A more accurate translation into English is provided in the Stone Edition of the Tanakh: Shemot/Exodus 22:24 "When you lend money to My people, to the poor person who is with you, do not act toward him as a creditor; do not lay interest upon him." The explanation given by Rashi for this is that a loan is one of the highest forms of charity, because it preserves the self-respect of the borrower and allows him to rebuild his own independent financial stability. In fact this particular "pasook" (or sentence) is one of three cases in Scripture where the Hebrew word used by the Almighty means when, and not if (cf. Exodus 20:22 and Leviticus 2:14). To assist the poor with a loan is not optional, but obligatory and virtually comes under the heading of "Tzedakah", or the giving of charity. __________________________________________ Edward Solomon British Trombone Society Webmaster mailto:webmaster@trombone-society.org.uk Visit "The Trombonist Online" - the online magazine of the British Trombone Society http://www.trombone-society.org.uk __________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 20:00:48 -0400 From: Walter Barrett Subject: Re: Slide crooks? Thus spake, not Zarathustra, but Dennis Clason > > The crook width should not affect the distance to 7th position, although it > can > affect the slide length and hence, whether 7th exists at all on the > instrument. The > distance between positions is a physics thing, and the first-order effects > are going > to dominate there. > > Dennis Dennis- Far be it from me to argue Physics with a Man of Science, but all I know is that I have to really stretch to reach 7th on my small-crooked 691, whereas 7th is easy to reach on my 682 with a medium crook. (more Conn-like, not as wide as a Bach) I just took out both slides, and the 682 slide is only about 1/4 inch longer at the bell-slide joint than the 691. The length at the mpce. receiver is the same, as is the brace held by the left hand. The major difference in dimensions between the 2 slides is the width, with the 682 being almost an inch wider. So, I don't know the exact measurements, but I can see that the overall length of the 682 slide is longer, and I think that this accounts for the smaller distance between positions (not just to 7th, but all of them.) I may be wrong, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. Anybody got a Bach 42 and a 36 who's willing to measure the distance to 7th, using only one of the bells and both slides? Walter Barrett "Ale, man, ale¶s the stuff to drink For fellows whom it hurts to think." -A.E. Housman Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 21:08:54 -0400 From: "Peter W. Schroth" Subject: Re: Slide crooks? If you measure from first position to seventh position, the distance should be the same for any Bb trombone. However, if you measure from the mouthpiece rim to seventh position (or to first position, for that matter), the distance can be as much as a couple of inches more for one trombone than for another. Peter W. Schroth ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 20:23:41 -0500 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Re: Racist language and Slide crooks? ok im outta here !!!!!!!!!!!!! i was brought up with a lot of prejudice coming from all directions and inspite of all the attempts to overcome it i realize that i am a very very racist person extremist -and i now understand in a greater way some of the why and reminded how ---i was not trying to be a racist i worked very hard on a kibbutz in 1972 and was asked to stay and join the kibbutz by the man who ran the dairy -he was a doctor before emigrating to kibbutz near nazareth -i saw the tatoos from the camps on several members -the kibbutz was settled in 46 or 48 by hungarian refugees i also went into town after 1 pm to themarket and met hussein he lived in a house that his family had occupied for 800 years hussein and a hebrew girl fell in love but their families would not let it happen some people here on the list are coming from the same place thanks for setting me free from the illusions it has been nice learning about the trombone community by cyberspace \ i never had much trouble getting along with the jews or arabs either i played in a blues band -when i joined was big larry was the only afro american - and i stayed with the band thru several transitions until i was the only non african american ---i have experienced discrimination from all sides and by all types it is hard to change -i need to get back to doing my art painting metalsmithing sculpture see you guys around Gabriel Langfur wrote: > I really didn't want to get involved in this one...but I > just have to jump in. > > D.J., with all respect and affection I have to say I think > you made the first wrong on this one. Your first private > post, with the "jew me down" phrase, probably shouldn't > have gone to the list at all, but since it did, we all had > occasion to read it. You can't hit delete in advance unless > you absolutely know you don't want to read posts from > someone in particular. > > The word nigger hasn't always been intended hatefully when > it's been used by white people, but that doesn't make it > any less offensive to use it now. It's a word that has a > particular connotation that is now unacceptable in our > diverse society. Of course, it's been appropriated in the > subculture for something else entirely...I don't feel > qualified to make any judgements about that, but I > certainly know, without a doubt, that it is completely > unacceptable for me, as a white guy, to call anybody a > nigger for any reason. > > I think the phrase "jew me down" is just as unacceptable in > the larger society. It comes from too hurtful a stereotype, > and regardless of how it's been used in the past, habits > have to change to reflect changes in society. > > --- "D.J. Kennedy" wrote: > > the crooks that try to extract blood on every deal are > > the worst > > D.J., I think you're just digging your hole deeper here. > Now it looks like you're justifying your comments. Please, > please, please stop fighting back on this one. Please, > let's let this subject drop, and please, D.J., consider it > a lesson learned. Times change, cultures change, and the > ways we use language have to change with them. > > > and of course people who have no sense of humor > > I didn't read any irony in your original post. If I did, I > might agree with you. > > or > > any kind > > of compassion forgiveness and for these people who > > are consumed > > with hate discrimination and fault finding in > > everything please take > > a close look in the mirror --small minds --ripples > > in the pond > > narrow minds and attitudes are much more prevalent > > than narrow slides > > It's easy to say that people are being small-minded when > they are sensitive about language...but language is > powerful. The more we use phrases like "jew me down," the > longer it takes to break down the cultural stereotypes held > in the minds of the ignorant and REALLY small-minded. > > Enough for now. > > ===== > Gabe Langfur > Boston, MA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 20:29:35 -0500 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: Slide crooks? -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter W. Schroth Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 8:09 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Slide crooks? If you measure from first position to seventh position, the distance should be the same for any Bb trombone. ======================================================= Why? If one slide is longer (due to a wider crook), why would the distance between positions be the same as a slide of a different length? Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 21:42:47 -0400 From: "Peter W. Schroth" Subject: Re: Slide crooks? Moving the slide out one inch adds two inches to the total length of the air column. This doesn't change if the crook at the far end is longer or shorter. Peter W. Schroth Jeff Albert wrote: > > Why? If one slide is longer (due to a wider crook), why would the distance > between positions be the same as a slide of a different length? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 21:49:58 -0400 From: Debra Silver Subject: Re: Troll Alert???? Racist language Israelis 1. Uh, I am not a troll, and not trying to start a flame war. I don't see where anyone would say that--the comment was offensive, and I couldn't believe it wasn't monitored. If you want to see me, go to my internet radio website www.smartwomen.org/onair scroll to the bottom, and you'll see me. If you tune in next Monday, you'll hear me also. 2. Of what relevance is an Israeli's opinion vs any one else's? The majority of Israelis are not well educated in Jewish history or Jewish values (unfortunately), so I'm not sure what they would bring to this discussion is of greater value than anyone else's. 3. See above with reference to Jews--there are plenty of Jews who don't realize racism when the see it (unfortunately). 4. I know a lot of people, from all walks of life, many of whom don't know whether or not I'm Jewish--I've NEVER heard that term used. 5. If someone was saying that I haven't posted--that's not true--I received great advice re repairs earlier this year, and I also posted years and years ago when I was on it. 6. I now realize the message was not for the whole list, and maybe that's why it wasn't monitored. Racists are everywhere, even among trombone-l users, and I don't pretend they'll ever be gone. 7. I am one of the most *non* PC people, believe it or not. > > --- LarryL595@AOL.COM wrote: > > I don't know whether Debra Silver is a troll or not, > > but as a Jew, there is > > no question in my mind that the comment was > > thoughtless and racist. > > This is getting to be rather like John Lennon's > offhand comment concerning the popularity of the > Beatles with the youth of Britain over the popularity > of religion, with one sentence taken completely out of > context by an American publication running it > secondhand and blowing completely out of proportion, > much to Lennon's bewilderment. > > I am Jewish and do not find DJ's imagery offensive. > "To jew one down" is perhaps an unfortunate phrase but > one with a long history in the American lexicon. DJ > often uses words for their poetic or attention-getting > value rather than their connotation or denotation. > Read one of his long and winding rants wherein he > strings together long chains of similar-sounding words > that barely relate to one another. > > And yes, DJ knows I am Jewish, and has for years. And > he does not paint all Jews with the brush that he uses > when he expresses his opinions about the > Israeli-Palestinian situation. > > Speaking of which, I have not seen an interjection yet > from Eliezer Aharoni...who is an Israeli trombonist on > this list. > > Michael Shoshani > Chicago IL > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 21:51:57 -0400 From: Keith Harshaw Subject: Philly/Baltimore dealers I'm looking for a dealer in the Philadelphia or Baltimore area that keeps a good selection of new and used trombones on hand. Any suggestions? I'm getting tired of revolving door of horns know as eBay, it seems I show up to every gig with a different horn. I need to sit down in a room full of horns to find something I like. I'd rather not trek all the way up to Dillon Music... =20 Thanks, Keith =20 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 21:52:06 -0400 From: Debra Silver Subject: My earlier posts >From: Debra Silver >Reply-To: Debra Silver >To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU >Subject: [TBN-L] NYC trombone repair >Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 12:30:22 -0400 > >hi everybody, > >I just started playing again after 5 years or so, and although my horn seems to be in good shape, I'm wondering if the slide can't be tuned up a bit. Do you have any recommendations for anyone in NYC? > >Thanks. Someone doesn't know how to use the search function, apparently. I realize the time delay factor here, and am more than happy to drop the subject. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 21:53:49 -0500 From: Eric & Candice Swanson Subject: Re: Conn-Selmer Craig Parmerlee wrote: > > > ... Imposing trade restrictions that force China to adhere to labor, > workplace, and environmental standards comparable to the first world. > From what I've seen and heard of the Chinese trombones and other wind instruments, their horrible quality should be pretty much enough to weed them out of the picture. But, I guess there are always the unfortunate people who are uninformed enough to buy a Chinese horn though. Then the poor kid has to try to play it and the poor band director has to try to teach the kid with the unplayable horn. Better to hang these "horns" on the wall where they belong. Eric Swanson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 23:07:33 -0700 From: "mail.insightbb.com" Subject: Re: Slide crooks? You are correct, of course. However, if one holds the slide bar at the bottom slide, the wider crook would add a little distance for the arm at 7th position, due to the angle of the arm from the mouth, correct? Couldn't be very much, but it could be enough to be noticed. RH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter W. Schroth" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 6:42 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Slide crooks? > Moving the slide out one inch adds two inches to the total > length of the air column. This doesn't change if the crook > at the far end is longer or shorter. > > Peter W. Schroth > > Jeff Albert wrote: > > > > Why? If one slide is longer (due to a wider crook), why would the distance > > between positions be the same as a slide of a different length? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 23:07:22 EDT From: JFBermann@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Philly/Baltimore dealers Dave Fedderly, who owns the Baltimore Brass Co. http://home.earthlink.net/~mrtuba (410)744-1722 Has a pretty good selection of new and used trombones as well as other low brass. Jim Bermann ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 20:55:16 -0700 From: "Eric, Leandra, Sara & Jared Edwards" Subject: FW: [TPIN] Re: Help with soldering I tend to prefer paste flux. I can control where it goes better than liquid. It's a preference thing. Also, I use clips made out of clothes hangers. The metal seems to have a nice spring to it, and can be bent and shaped to infinite configurations. I have made several and they last forever. When soldering, the biggest concerns are: having a clean joint, make sure the metal is bright and shiny and no grease or oil, a tight fitting joint or connection, make sure the parts fit with NO tension, and use enough heat and flux. Make sure the parts you are joining melt the solder and not the flame. Finally, let the parts cool normally, don't quench with water if possible. Good Luck!! Eric Eric Edwards bonearzt@earthlink.net "Just shut up and play!" -----Original Message----- From: tpin-admin@tpin.dana.edu [mailto:tpin-admin@tpin.dana.edu]On Behalf Of John Lynch Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 8:04 PM To: Chris Dankler; tpin@tpin.dana.edu Subject: Re: [TPIN] Re: Help with soldering Chris, I'm pretty expert at that kind of thing. A good torch is very nice to have. For soldering on braces there are some very handy clamps that are sold by Allied. It's quite useful to have liquid solder flux in a little squirt bottle. A good solder scraper is a must-have tool. Cheers, John John T. Lynch 1127 Hoover Street Nokomis, FL 34275-4407 941/486-8115 941/539-5623 (cell) jlynch137@comcast.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Dankler" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 2:55 PM Subject: [TPIN] Re: Help with soldering > Anyone out there good on repairs?? I would like to start working on some old > horns and wondered if there were any good tips to solder bracing--have the > old Eric Brand book as a start, but there are always tricks that other > people know to do a good job--thanks!!! > > _______________________________________________ > http://tpin.dana.edu/mailman/listinfo/tpin _______________________________________________ http://tpin.dana.edu/mailman/listinfo/tpin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 21:09:26 -0700 From: "Eric, Leandra, Sara & Jared Edwards" Subject: FW: [TBN-L] Troll Alert???? Racist language Israelis I, for one, think this whole "racist" thing is TOTAL B.F.S!!!!! If we lose a great contributor like DJ over this crap, I'll be sure to follow. DJ, please reconsider!!!!!! One slightly off handed comment does not a racist make. Anyone who has read his posts and/or met him in person know he is not the slightest bit racist. How many times have any of us used the term "rigged" with the well known and hopefully extinct extensions? Jury being the nicer of the ones I have heard. Are we going to be known as being racist against the Judicial system? Yeah right. Same nonsense! And now I'm going to take my own advice! JUST SHUT UP AND PLAY!! Eric Edwards bonearzt@earthlink.net "Just shut up and play!" -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Debra Silver Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 6:50 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Troll Alert???? Racist language Israelis 1. Uh, I am not a troll, and not trying to start a flame war. I don't see where anyone would say that--the comment was offensive, and I couldn't believe it wasn't monitored. If you want to see me, go to my internet radio website www.smartwomen.org/onair scroll to the bottom, and you'll see me. If you tune in next Monday, you'll hear me also. 2. Of what relevance is an Israeli's opinion vs any one else's? The majority of Israelis are not well educated in Jewish history or Jewish values (unfortunately), so I'm not sure what they would bring to this discussion is of greater value than anyone else's. 3. See above with reference to Jews--there are plenty of Jews who don't realize racism when the see it (unfortunately). 4. I know a lot of people, from all walks of life, many of whom don't know whether or not I'm Jewish--I've NEVER heard that term used. 5. If someone was saying that I haven't posted--that's not true--I received great advice re repairs earlier this year, and I also posted years and years ago when I was on it. 6. I now realize the message was not for the whole list, and maybe that's why it wasn't monitored. Racists are everywhere, even among trombone-l users, and I don't pretend they'll ever be gone. 7. I am one of the most *non* PC people, believe it or not. > > --- LarryL595@AOL.COM wrote: > > I don't know whether Debra Silver is a troll or not, > > but as a Jew, there is > > no question in my mind that the comment was > > thoughtless and racist. > > This is getting to be rather like John Lennon's > offhand comment concerning the popularity of the > Beatles with the youth of Britain over the popularity > of religion, with one sentence taken completely out of > context by an American publication running it > secondhand and blowing completely out of proportion, > much to Lennon's bewilderment. > > I am Jewish and do not find DJ's imagery offensive. > "To jew one down" is perhaps an unfortunate phrase but > one with a long history in the American lexicon. DJ > often uses words for their poetic or attention-getting > value rather than their connotation or denotation. > Read one of his long and winding rants wherein he > strings together long chains of similar-sounding words > that barely relate to one another. > > And yes, DJ knows I am Jewish, and has for years. And > he does not paint all Jews with the brush that he uses > when he expresses his opinions about the > Israeli-Palestinian situation. > > Speaking of which, I have not seen an interjection yet > from Eliezer Aharoni...who is an Israeli trombonist on > this list. > > Michael Shoshani > Chicago IL > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 22:58:38 -0500 From: Marc-Andrea Klimaschewski Subject: Another Edwards large bore for sale A am sorry that my first post is a sale but it is very important. I have an Edwards T327 large bore for sale: 370CF bell (thin red brass, unsoldered rim) single radius yellow brass tuning slide counterweight straight neckpipe T-BC slide #1 Sterling leadpipe #3 brass leadpipe shortened #2 leadpipe The horn is in near mint condition. If you want I can include a Yamaha case with a interior that was fitted for this horn. It is not fancy but did a great job on my flight from Germany to the USA. Right now I am located in Piedmont, OK which is near Oklahoma City. I can ship it everywhere in the US. I am willing to let it go for a good price. Make an offer. Pictures available. Thank you Marc-Andrea Klimaschewski ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 7 Oct 2003 to 8 Oct 2003 (#2003-279) ***************************************************************