Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 6 Apr 2003 to 7 Apr 2003 (#2003-96) Date: Tuesday, April 8, 2003 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 48 messages totalling 2690 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Lindberg Anti-Buzz (24) 2. Score for Blue Topaz (2) 3. Jazz LP Cover Scans - Watrous & Fontana 4. OTJ Classifieds Update - April 7, 2003 5. internal time 6. The buzz (2) 7. Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] Lindberg Anti-Buzz 8. buzzing (2) 9. buzzing Re: [TBN-L] buzzing Re: [TBN-L] buzzing 10. Internal Time 11. Great moments in Buzzing... 12. Lindberg Anti-Buzz/Anti-Breathing? (5) 13. Lindberg Buzz Bit 14. the buzz 15. Buzzing, et al 16. Reynolds Contempora (2) 17. Bach mouthpiece plating? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 01:16:32 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Lindberg Anti-Buzz >Hi all, > >Christian Lindberg came to town over the weekend, so I decided to >catch his masterclass. Having been raised by all-American >Chicago-luvin' trombonists, it was interesting to get the European >spin on things, which CONTRADICTS EVERYTHING (almost) that I've >learned, namely in the areas of mouthpiece buzzing and breathing. > >Christian is a heck of a player (duh), but I was rather disturbed by >what he advocated. Namely, he came out against mouthpiece buzzing, >saying that it was actually DETRIMENTAL to playing. He then >demonstrated a pretty buzz on the mouthpiece, kept that buzz going, >and put the mouthpiece in the horn to make a not-so-nice sound. And >then he made a pretty sound on the horn, pulled the mouthpiece away, >and the lips made no sound at all. > >Does anyone have an explanation for this which would support >buzzing? If word of this "buzzing stinks" philosophy gets out to my >students.... well... that could be bad. > >Thanks > >-Danny Beckley >"Have Thayers, will travel." >beckley@beckleyweb.com ======= There is a very simple explanation...Lindberg hasn't learned how to buzz the way he plays and/or play the way he buzzes. Learning to do so results in a compromise between the two approaches which has been beneficial to the playing of any number of brass players. Lindberg's tone is rather thin, to my ears., Maybe he should give the technique a try. Whatever he does, he should NOT put down a perfectly useful technique just because he can't (or doesn't) do it. S. -- (Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at and/or , email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 02:07:46 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee Subject: Re: Lindberg Anti-Buzz At 11:01 PM 4/6/2003 -0400, Danny Beckley wrote: >Does anyone have an explanation for this which would support buzzing? If >word of this "buzzing stinks" philosophy gets out to my students.... >well... that could be bad. Why? Don't they have trombones? Why would anybody ever choose to buzz on a mouthpiece if they could buzz on the whole instrument instead? I realize that mouthpiece buzzing can be useful in certain diagnostic or demonstration situations. And if there isn't an option to play on the horn (e.g. on vacation without the instrument), mouthpiece buzzing is probably better than no buzzing, but do you really advise students to do this when they could be playing on the instrument instead? Just curious, Craig ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 03:57:47 -0400 From: Kevin Fleming Subject: Score for Blue Topaz Does anyone have a score for the trombone choir Blue Topaz by Tommy Pederson? I'm performing it soon, and would love to have a score to work from. If you do, please let me know either on the list or privately, and perhaps we could work something out. Thanks much, Kevin Fleming ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 05:23:02 -0400 From: Jerry Zigmont Subject: Jazz LP Cover Scans - Watrous & Fontana Some time ago, I transferred my lp of the Carl Fontana - Bill Watrous duet album onto DAT. Additionally, I transferred a copy of the first Watrous solo album, "In Love Again". I no longer have the records, but was wondering if anyone might have cover and back scans of either or both of these releases. Thanks in advance. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 06:30:51 -0500 From: Chris Waage Subject: OTJ Classifieds Update - April 7, 2003 The Online Trombone Journal Classifieds (http://www.trombone.org/classifieds) have been updated as of 6:30 AM CDT on April 7, 2003. - - - - - Thank you for using the OTJ Classifieds! - - - - - OTJ Classifieds Frequently Asked Questions http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/faq.asp OTJ Gift Shoppe: http://www.cafepress.com/cp/store/store.aspx?storeid=trombones If you have any questions or comments about the Online Trombone Journal Classifieds, please contact me at chris@trombone.org. Chris Waage ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 08:02:37 -0400 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL Subject: Re: internal time I think the ban on foot tapping in many groups is the same phenomenon as knowing not to clap between movements. It is smug self righteousness, thinking you know something the others don't, even though you don't know why. This seems to be particularly true of choirs. I've heard this many times in church choirs, usually from sopranos. Sometimes I innocently ask, "why would that be?" I generally get a quite unchurchly glare back. "Because you're not supposed to." However, there may be something to it. I have noted with amazement singers who are able to tap feet and sing at different tempos. There are rare times when they even realize the group is dragging, and they tap louder, and sing slower! My junior high band director did not like foot tapping. He said he wanted players following him, not their feet. Given the general state of junior high bands he may have been overly optimistic, but at least he'd thought about it and had a reason. Maybe that was conventional wisdom when he was in school. He also banned humming the pitch when he had a vocal group - he said singers inevitably used their hum for the starting pitch instead of the correct one. (and he said accelerando absolutely did not mean speed up, he was pretty firm on that one) Personally, I don't see how you can maintain internal time without some physical motion. I don't know which is the chicken or the egg, but the two seem pretty strongly linked to me. It may not have to be foot tapping, or it may have to be whole body swaying and dancing, but it has to be there. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 06:32:23 -0700 From: Steve Gamble Subject: Re: Lindberg Anti-Buzz How irritating it is for such a high-profile player to put down something he doesn't even demonstrate correctly. The sound coming from a correctly buzzed mouthpiece isn't "pretty," it's kind of airy and even a little spitty. The air coming through must be a prominent part of the sound. If you blow so that the result is a pure tone on the mouthpiece, the sound on the trombone is very thin and oinky (if that means anything). I know I'm in the minority, but I've never been able to develop much of an appreciation for Lindberg's playing due to his funky tone and more than occasional intonation problems, both of which could benefit from proper mouthpiece buzzing. (Hey, maybe now's the time to bring back the thread regarding music criticism, its value or lack thereof.) Steve Gamble, Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org 520-792-9155 x118 520-792-9314 fax 520-991-7056 cel -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Danny Beckley Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 8:02 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] Lindberg Anti-Buzz Hi all, Christian Lindberg came to town over the weekend, so I decided to catch his masterclass. Having been raised by all-American Chicago-luvin' trombonists, it was interesting to get the European spin on things, which CONTRADICTS EVERYTHING (almost) that I've learned, namely in the areas of mouthpiece buzzing and breathing. Christian is a heck of a player (duh), but I was rather disturbed by what he advocated. Namely, he came out against mouthpiece buzzing, saying that it was actually DETRIMENTAL to playing. He then demonstrated a pretty buzz on the mouthpiece, kept that buzz going, and put the mouthpiece in the horn to make a not-so-nice sound. And then he made a pretty sound on the horn, pulled the mouthpiece away, and the lips made no sound at all. Does anyone have an explanation for this which would support buzzing? If word of this "buzzing stinks" philosophy gets out to my students.... well... that could be bad. Thanks -Danny Beckley "Have Thayers, will travel." beckley@beckleyweb.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 09:44:45 -0400 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL Subject: The buzz We'll likely not resolve this one, but it's fun to discuss it every few years and see what new thinking pops up. I can state what I think the basic argument is. We know that there are top players who make buzzing an integral part of their playing and can go seamlessly from buzz to tone. We know that there are also other players just as accomplished who can't buzz to save their life. How do we account for this? It seems to me there are two possible theories. When most of us started experimenting with buzzing, we found if you pull your horn off your lips while you are playing, the buzz stops. If you start the buzz and put the horn on your lips, you get a lousy tone. If you work at it, you find you can learn to go back and forth without much change in pitch or tone. If you spend much time at all, you also usually find out there are ways to buzz that don't work on the horn, and you usually mess yourself up pretty good at least once by getting carried away. Therefore: either there are (at least) two ways to play the trombone, one of which also works while buzzing and one of which does not; OR the players who can buzz don't buzz the same way as when on the horn, but they have learned to make the transition so quickly that they think it is the same. I'm not sure how we can differentiate between these two cases. The mere fact that buzzing clearly works to improve some players does not prove how it works, nor the fact it does not work for some players does not prove either case. When we pull off the horn and learn to keep the buzz from dying, did we learn to alter how we buzz when playing? Or did we simply learn to instantly change to a buzz that works without the horn? Does Christian Lindberg, whose buzz dies when you pull the horn off, use the same tone production method as Sam, e.g., does, whose buzz does not? Or do they both play trombone the same way, buzz a different way, but Sam is successful in instantly changing while Christian has not been able to learn that? And how could we tell? We know there are many ways to buzz, some of which don't work on the trombone. I don't think we know if there are many ways to play trombone. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 08:16:15 -0600 From: Michael Cryer Subject: Re: Lindberg Anti-Buzz Studios have the ability to make a person sound much richer than they normally would in person. For example when Frank Sinatra's voice was starting to get gruff in the 50's, they were able to cover that up in the studio recordings. Lindberg is Lindberg. I have no problem with his airiness, he can kick just about everyone's ass in technique. > I'm not trying to back-up the mouthpiece buzzing thing per se, but I > felt the quality of tone ("airiness") I heard from Lindberg live wasn't > the same as from the many recordings of his I have. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:11:41 -0500 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Re: Lindberg Anti-Buzz sam has the best developed buzz technique breakdown i have used buzzing on mpc to prep up for tough gigs when i couldnt be on horn ---and a loose mpc is handy to blow on ----there cant be that much diff w or without horn lindberg is a wyldman forsure ---snaszzzzzy tone like light strings on a fender mustang !!!!!!!!!!!--and none of you brave souls dare to challenge this buzzing stuff [at least in master class]????????? yeah if he hit the tl list or otj forum boom -------he gets hit ---maybe you could buzz wrong ????????? i dunno but this has the buzzzzzzzzz going having needed to do mpc buzz for conditioning --im pro buzz ----------------------------------------------------- ok here is is at next master class when subject comes up all the players in the room whip out their mpcs and give him a hearty greeting !!!!!!!!!!!!! ---------- actually i think cl is a lotta fun -i poured a drafty for him and topped it off when he wasnt looking he turns around looks for it ---ha ha !!!!! at the itf and hung w his band some -they remind me of rockers in those cowboy coats --they have that attitude anyway he has a goodsense of humor and he is not a square you guys that hit hilsinki ---you know youre cool if lindy invites you to the sauna ---and wwwwwwwwhata bout that blonde bonist ?????!!!!!!! buuuuuuzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!!!!!!! view from the front row ---hes off on the mpc buzz deal so what???? the cat bloooooows!!!!!!i would tell him --hey dude -uuuh you wanna cop a buzz? zzzzzzzzzzzzzz not on my mouthpiece !!!!!!!!! sabutin wrote: > >Hi all, > > > >Christian Lindberg came to town over the weekend, so I decided to > >catch his masterclass. Having been raised by all-American > >Chicago-luvin' trombonists, it was interesting to get the European > >spin on things, which CONTRADICTS EVERYTHING (almost) that I've > >learned, namely in the areas of mouthpiece buzzing and breathing. > > > >Christian is a heck of a player (duh), but I was rather disturbed by > >what he advocated. Namely, he came out against mouthpiece buzzing, > >saying that it was actually DETRIMENTAL to playing. He then > >demonstrated a pretty buzz on the mouthpiece, kept that buzz going, > >and put the mouthpiece in the horn to make a not-so-nice sound. And > >then he made a pretty sound on the horn, pulled the mouthpiece away, > >and the lips made no sound at all. > > > >Does anyone have an explanation for this which would support > >buzzing? If word of this "buzzing stinks" philosophy gets out to my > >students.... well... that could be bad. > > > >Thanks > > > >-Danny Beckley > >"Have Thayers, will travel." > >beckley@beckleyweb.com > > ======= > > There is a very simple explanation...Lindberg hasn't learned how > to buzz the way he plays and/or play the way he buzzes. > > Learning to do so results in a compromise between the two > approaches which has been beneficial to the playing of any number of > brass players. > > Lindberg's tone is rather thin, to my ears., Maybe he should give > the technique a try. > > Whatever he does, he should NOT put down a perfectly useful > technique just because he can't (or doesn't) do it. > > S. > > -- > (Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of > "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in > NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments > and accessories. Visit us on the web at and/or > , email us at , > or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by > appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 17:13:10 +0200 From: Anders Carlsson Subject: Re: Lindberg Anti-Buzz As a person living in Sweden I have a bit of insight on this matter. Lindberg is on the BIS label. I have done some recording with people who works for BIS and with people who manufacture recording gear for BIS. These guys are audiophiles. I'm sure they have done some cutting but they're not doing any sound altering like on pop albums. For instance none of the recordings are done in in a studio and almost all of them are made in the same school auditorium due to it's accoustical features. /Anders Carlsson Gothenburg Sweden blue_trombone@INTERFOLD.COM writes: > Studios have the ability to make a person sound much >richer than they >normally would in person. For example when Frank Sinatra's >voice was >starting to get gruff in the 50's, they were able to cover >that up in the >studio recordings. Lindberg is Lindberg. I have no problem >with his >airiness, he can kick just about everyone's ass in >technique. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 17:26:38 +0200 From: Anders Carlsson Subject: Re: Lindberg Anti-Buzz This saddens me in the brass world. Why is the discussion always among brass players about this: quality of tone, sound or technique. Far too often, it seems, trombone performance is judged on attacks, sound and technique. If those parameters are OK then it is good music. Instead we should listen to a trombone performance and ask ourselves: How close is this to Casals or Oistrach? To my ears Lindberg is the only one that comes close to a top class singer or a string player. Sure I may not always like his sound, or this or that but that's just instrumental ideals. If we come to the conclusion that trombone (solo) performances really are up to the MUSICAL level of other solists then we can ask ourselves why the trombone isn't as popular as we think it should be. If the answer to that question is negative well... /Anders Carlsson Gothenburg Sweden David Oliver writes: >For what it's worth, he's an incredible player on alto and >tenor trombone (obviously), but from what I remember of >hearing Joe Alessi when he was at the ITF I'd say that Joe >has Lindberg beat on "quality" of tone. > >They are of course different players with different >styles, but I still have a visual and "sound image" of >Alessi in the middle of that stage at CU in 1998 with his >slide out in 5th position and the gorgeous sound that came >out (and wondering if could *ever* do that less than a >year after playing again after 17 years). I was right in >line with his bell and in a similar place when I heard >Lindberg. > >I was more blown away by Lindberg's blazing technique in >comparison. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:47:26 -0400 From: DSlide13@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lindberg Anti-Buzz Yes yes yes.....thank you for saying this. You are right on the money. It's like 'penis envy'. We play the most technically difficult instrument, so we get caught up in technique. We jealous of trumpet players, and saxophonists and pianists...etc. Maybe it's "pianist's envy". Music is music. Someone might play sharp, or miss an attack, or have a little bit of fuzz in their sound, but still make music that you can feel. In the musical community, we probably come off like the 30 year old man living in his parents basement surfing the internet who's never kissed a girl. Where's the music? DG In a message dated 4/7/2003 10:26:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, anders.carlsson@GFS.GU.SE writes: > This saddens me in the brass world. Why is the discussion > always among brass players about this: quality of tone, > sound or technique. Far too often, it seems, trombone > performance is judged on attacks, sound and technique. If > those parameters are OK then it is good music. > > Instead we should listen to a trombone performance and ask > ourselves: How close is this to Casals or Oistrach? To my > ears Lindberg is the only one that comes close to a top > class singer or a string player. Sure I may not always like > his sound, or this or that but that's just instrumental > ideals. > > If we come to the conclusion that trombone (solo) > performances really are up to the MUSICAL level of other > solists then we can ask ourselves why the trombone isn't as > popular as we think it should be. If the answer to that > question is negative well... > > /Anders Carlsson > Gothenburg Sweden ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 16:59:54 +0100 From: Keith Marr Subject: Re: Lindberg Anti-Buzz "DG said" < In the musical community, we probably come off like the 30 year old < man living in his parents basement surfing the internet who's never kissed < a girl. Hey, you leave my kid brother alone! Seriously, buzzing and playing the instrument aren't (obviously) the same because of the difference in resistance. Denis Wick used to recommend placing the end of your finger over the end of the mpce to replicate that resistance - it works for me. I don't think discussing technique and making music are mutually exclusive threads, we can talk about one without negating the importance of the other surely. (I know, I know - stop calling me Shirley!) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Keith in Bb/F/D www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 12:19:52 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: The buzz >We'll likely not resolve this one, but it's fun to discuss it every few >years and see what new thinking pops up. > >I can state what I think the basic argument is. > >We know that there are top players who make buzzing an integral part of >their playing and can go seamlessly from buzz to tone. We know that there >are also other players just as accomplished who can't buzz to save their >life. How do we account for this? It seems to me there are two possible >theories. > >When most of us started experimenting with buzzing, we found if you pull >your horn off your lips while you are playing, the buzz stops. If you start >the buzz and put the horn on your lips, you get a lousy tone. If you work >at it, you find you can learn to go back and forth without much change in >pitch or tone. If you spend much time at all, you also usually find out >there are ways to buzz that don't work on the horn, and you usually mess >yourself up pretty good at least once by getting carried away. > >Therefore: either there are (at least) two ways to play the trombone, one of >which also works while buzzing and one of which does not; OR the players >who can buzz don't buzz the same way as when on the horn, but they have >learned to make the transition so quickly that they think it is the same. >I'm not sure how we can differentiate between these two cases. The mere >fact that buzzing clearly works to improve some players does not prove how >it works, nor the fact it does not work for some players does not prove >either case. > >When we pull off the horn and learn to keep the buzz from dying, did we >learn to alter how we buzz when playing? Or did we simply learn to >instantly change to a buzz that works without the horn? Does Christian >Lindberg, whose buzz dies when you pull the horn off, use the same tone >production method as Sam, e.g., does, whose buzz does not? Or do they both >play trombone the same way, buzz a different way, but Sam is successful in >instantly changing while Christian has not been able to learn that? And how >could we tell? > >We know there are many ways to buzz, some of which don't work on the >trombone. I don't think we know if there are many ways to play trombone. ================== I will go with the "no change" idea, for two reasons. (This goes for m'pce buzzing AND free buzzing, although free buzzing is a much harder task, especially if you consider many octaves.) 1-No matter how quickly you change, it cannot not be quickly enough to be undetectable. Nearly undetectable, yes, but but so rapid that 20 years of effort and attentuion would not have discovered it. 2-As I have worked on seamlessly buzzing and playing...and the operative word here is "worked"...the single principle behind that work has been the idea that the m'pce buzz, unencumbered by the horn, is the most correct and efficient buzz possible. Certainly over time there has been a compromise between the two approaches (much smalller compromise m'pce-horn than free buzzing-m'pce), but the compromise. which is more in how I play the horn than how I play the m'pce, has been long term, not in the instant I change from one to the other. The fact of the matter is, there are not only two "different ways" to play the trombone, but as many ways as there are players. Most of them fall into broad categories...Reinhardt's attempt to categorize them being the most thorough...and there certainly is a category that includes buzzers and non-buzzers. My point is only that no matter into WHAT "category" you might fall...buzzer, upstream player, doodle tonguer, orchestral player, song and wind proponent...IF A TEACHER SAYS "MY WAY IS RIGHT; DO NOT DO IT THAT OTHER WAY; DO NOT EVEN TRY IT" beyond certain very broad parameters...don't hold your slide with your whole fist, excessive pressure is not good, playing w/the m'pce stuck in your ear is not going to work, etc...that teacher is doing you a disservice. My experience w/such teachers and players (and I have run into a bunch of them) has shown me that they are all coming from what I consider a very unhealthy place, that they have a very fragile egoand are overcompensating by rigidly considering what they do to be "correct" and all other ways to be "incorrect". It makes no difference if these people are transcendent virtuosi or obsessed little theoretician hacks who really can't play "Happy Birthday"...this is an anti-musical approach and invariably produces only inferior clones of the original. It results not in evolution but in devolution. Caveat discipulus. S. -- (Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at and/or , email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:24:28 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee Subject: Re: Lindberg Anti-Buzz At 04:59 PM 4/7/2003 +0100, Keith Marr wrote: >Seriously, buzzing and playing the instrument aren't (obviously) the same >because of the difference in resistance. Denis Wick used to recommend >placing the end of your finger over the end of the mpce to replicate that >resistance - it works for me. I think it is useful to separate the whole buzzing thing into two different purposes A) a diagnostic or demonstration aid B) a training regimen or warm-up tool I don't think anybody has any difficulty with A). If buzzing the mouthpiece occasionally can help identify some flaws in the embouchure or pinpoint some potential improvement, that's just great. I believe the controversy is in B). If buzzing is suggested as part of the daily practice regimen other than just some sort of brief "grounding" exercise, frankly that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The characteristics of the open mouthpiece is different enough from that of the complete horn that virtually all of the available face time should be on the instrument whenever practical. You don't see bassoonists spending a lot of practice time practicing with only their reeds, other then just to annoy the rest of us with that "wounded duck" sound. When doing B) (lots of mouthpiece buzzing as a training regimen), I think there is a very real danger of the "leather lip" syndrome, mainly because the embouchure is having to take on a different formation to compensate for the lack of resistance. There is a really cheap and easy solution. Spend $2 for a 9 foot length of plastic tube that has inside diameter of about 6/10". This can easily stow in the glove box of a car, a briefcase, or satchel. Plug the mouthpiece into that tube and it will behave much more like the full instrument. The tube will also attenuate the sound, making the buzzing less conspicuous -- and it isn't nearly as messy. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 12:29:14 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] Lindberg Anti-Buzz Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 12:27:11 -0400 To: Craig Parmerlee From: sabutin Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Lindberg Anti-Buzz Cc: Bcc: X-Attachments: >At 07:46 AM 4/7/2003 -0400, you wrote: >>>At 11:01 PM 4/6/2003 -0400, Danny Beckley wrote: >>>>Does anyone have an explanation for this which would support buzzing? If >>>>word of this "buzzing stinks" philosophy gets out to my students.... >>>>well... that could be bad. >>> >>>Why? Don't they have trombones? Why would anybody ever choose to buzz on >>>a mouthpiece if they could buzz on the whole instrument instead? >>> >>>I realize that mouthpiece buzzing can be useful in certain diagnostic or >>>demonstration situations. And if there isn't an option to play on the horn >>>(e.g. on vacation without the instrument), mouthpiece buzzing is probably >>>better than no buzzing, but do you really advise students to do this when >>>they could be playing on the instrument instead? >>> >>>Just curious, >>>Craig >> >> >>======== >> >> Craig... >> >> Please read my articles "Letters From New York: Buzz Off! (Or >>buzz on - they both work)" and "Out of the Case: An Alternate >>Approach to Embouchure Development" Parts 1 and 2 on the Online >>Trombone Journal for one approach to this idea. >> >> Go to , select >>"Burtis, Sam" on the pulldown author's menu, and then click those >>three articles. >> >> Buzzing essentially simplifies the playing system and allows you >>to work on a very pure, very simple level of air and embouchure. If >>done correctly it can have enormous benefits. >> >> Later... >> >> Sam >> > >Yes, I've seen those articles before, and I agree that buzzing can >be useful as a diagnostic tool or a tool to illustrate particular >technical points. I do that myself. And a little buzzing on the >way to a gig isn't going to hurt anybody. > >But if a student is achieving the desired results on the trombone, I >surely wouldn't recommend a daily practice regimen that was heavy on >mouthpiece buzzing, as seemed to be the implication of the original >post. That sounds like suggesting a classical guitarist should >perfect his classical guitar chops by practicing an hour a day on >the ukulele. ========== Reductio ad absurdum. > >Perhaps I misunderstand what others are recommending for buzzing. >Personally, I have to agree with Lindberg. The technique used with >and the sound resulting from the bare mouthpiece are not very >similar to the dynamics of the complete instrument. To the extent >that the breaking down the components reveals some underlying >technical flaws that can be improved upon, I'm all for that, and I >bet Lindberg would be too. > >Cheers, >CP ================ To each his own, as far as choice of technique is concerned...but your understanding of buzzing is totally incomplete, and thus your choice is not fully informed. S. (Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at and/or , email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by appointment only.) -- (Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at and/or , email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 12:36:58 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Lindberg Anti-Buzz >This saddens me in the brass world. Why is the discussion >always among brass players about this: quality of tone, >sound or technique. Far too often, it seems, trombone >performance is judged on attacks, sound and technique. If >those parameters are OK then it is good music. > >Instead we should listen to a trombone performance and ask >ourselves: How close is this to Casals or Oistrach? To my >ears Lindberg is the only one that comes close to a top >class singer or a string player. Sure I may not always like >his sound, or this or that but that's just instrumental >ideals. > >If we come to the conclusion that trombone (solo) >performances really are up to the MUSICAL level of other >solists then we can ask ourselves why the trombone isn't as >popular as we think it should be. If the answer to that >question is negative well... > >/Anders Carlsson >Gothenburg Sweden =========== But Anders...music IS sound. Would Casals sound as good on a kazoo? S. > >David Oliver writes: >>For what it's worth, he's an incredible player on alto and >>tenor trombone (obviously), but from what I remember of >>hearing Joe Alessi when he was at the ITF I'd say that Joe >>has Lindberg beat on "quality" of tone. >> >>They are of course different players with different >>styles, but I still have a visual and "sound image" of >>Alessi in the middle of that stage at CU in 1998 with his >>slide out in 5th position and the gorgeous sound that came >>out (and wondering if could *ever* do that less than a >>year after playing again after 17 years). I was right in >>line with his bell and in a similar place when I heard > >Lindberg. > > > >I was more blown away by Lindberg's blazing technique in > >comparison. -- (Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at and/or , email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 13:09:46 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Lindberg Anti-Buzz >Yes yes yes.....thank you for saying this. You are right on the >money. It's like 'penis envy'. We play the most technically >difficult instrument, so we get caught up in technique. We jealous >of trumpet players, and saxophonists and pianists...etc. Maybe it's >"pianist's envy". > >Music is music. Someone might play sharp, or miss an attack, or >have a little bit of fuzz in their sound, but still make music that >you can feel. > >In the musical community, we probably come off like the 30 year old >man living in his parents basement surfing the internet who's never >kissed a girl. Where's the music? > >DG ======= Y'know...I can listen to Miles or Billie Holiday all day, raggedy as they both were sometimes. I can listen to Pops sing, to Tom Waits + Dylan and Randy Newman and Monk and...enough? It's not about "correct" sound...it's about pleasing sound. The question is...what sounds are "pleasing" to fairly large and broad groups of people. Now I had a thought the other day. A good friend of mine, a world renowned musician (you'd recognize the name), has an incredible antipathy to soprano saxes. Simply HATES the sound except in a few hands...Lucky Thompson being one of them. There was a beautiful Ravel piece on the radio in the background, and right in the middle of it he said "Great orchestration...too bad he chose the weasel horn to plau the melody". And sure enough, there was an orchestral soprano saxophone playing in there. It occurred to me then that just as we are all different outwardly in a physical manner...fingerprints, faces, body type...so must we be in every other aspect of out physical make-up, including our sound receptors and neural translators. The sound of a soprano doesn't bother me at all...it drives him nuts,like fingernails scratching on a blackboard. Lindberg's sound does that to me...not so extreme, but really quite similar. As a matter of fact, it seems to do that to a number of people. It certainly doesn't do it to him, nor to the thousands who listen to him. But it does that to me. Maybe in the broad categorizations of human beings there is one whose sound receptors are irritated by the sound for which he is striving, and more power to him if the majority of human beings are sent into ecstatic raptures by his every note. However...I'm not one of them. Not only that...although this is currently a failing shared by almost ALL trombonists, I would wager that 99% of the people who own his CDs are themselves trombonists, and that they lkisten to his technique to the exclusion of his sound OR his "music". The magic of J.J. Johnson's or Tommy Dorsey's or Arthur Pryor's broad(er) popular success was largely predicated on their ability to produce a SOUND that pleased relatively large numbers of human beings of the non-trombonal variety. And even further...when, after not particularly liking the several CDs I bought of Lindberg's,I was in a crowded room one day when he walked in and I had no idea who he was, my first impression of his act was very negative. We ARE our sound, and we are the sounds that please us. Even further further...when I went to a concert that same night by his trombone ensemble, I could barely sit through it and eventually walked out because some of the theatrics they were using offended me on a very deep personal level. It's not about chops or technique or even sound...on the scant evidence I have so far, I just don't much like where he is coming from. This anti-buzzing thing just puts a cap on it. I'm sure this means little or nothing to him, and I think that is exactly the way things ought to be. Certain sounds do not blend well; certain notes are clearly dissonant; certain people are not meant to like each others' act, and vive la difference. But sound IS music. How else to explain the effect of the bagpipe? (No jokes here...I LOVE bagpipes played well, and their use in societies across the world for centuries means they please others as well.) It's certainly not about musical technique. It's about SOUND. S. > > >In a message dated 4/7/2003 10:26:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, >anders.carlsson@GFS.GU.SE writes: > >> This saddens me in the brass world. Why is the discussion >> always among brass players about this: quality of tone, >> sound or technique. Far too often, it seems, trombone >> performance is judged on attacks, sound and technique. If >> those parameters are OK then it is good music. >> >> Instead we should listen to a trombone performance and ask >> ourselves: How close is this to Casals or Oistrach? To my >> ears Lindberg is the only one that comes close to a top >> class singer or a string player. Sure I may not always like >> his sound, or this or that but that's just instrumental >> ideals. >> >> If we come to the conclusion that trombone (solo) >> performances really are up to the MUSICAL level of other >> solists then we can ask ourselves why the trombone isn't as >> popular as we think it should be. If the answer to that > > question is negative well... > > > > /Anders Carlsson > > Gothenburg Sweden -- (Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at and/or , email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 17:15:20 +0000 From: "J.c. Sherman" Subject: buzzing Coming from the tubist's perspective, it does seem odd to recommend against buzzing - on any brass instrument. While opinions may very, no one can deny that it at least cannot be detrimental - too many fantastic players do it. The only explanation would be one I don't care to advance in a public forum... True - I cannot buzz the same way on both trombones/tubas as I would on the mouthpiece alone - it has the wrong resistance. Using a finger or the BERP helps this a great deal(and I use both, but prefer the BERP (need to get one for full-size tuba shank, though)). However, I think the work is helpful, regardless. Ron Bishop has pointed out that if you are having problems playing a pitch, guarenteed you'll have trouble buzzing it. Fix the buzz, fix the note. Regardless if it's the same buzz, it works, time after time, player after player. With my own students, if they have a thin or pinched tone, or a double buzz, the mouthpiece buzzing has done wonders for them. I have them play tunes, scales, fun stuff. It makes them more likely to play the mouthpiece with less embarasment. I really wound't know another way to teach, really... However, as you mature, I think the buzz decreases in importance as part of a daily routine. But I find it very helpful for repairing problems that come up, expecially with the BERP. This works for me, though I'm no Lindberg. But I don't seek to be either... I seek to be me. J.c. Sherman ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 13:18:54 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Lindberg Anti-Buzz >"DG said" > >< In the musical community, we probably come off like the 30 year old >< man living in his parents basement surfing the internet who's never kissed >< a girl. > >Hey, you leave my kid brother alone! > >Seriously, buzzing and playing the instrument aren't (obviously) the same >because of the difference in resistance. ============ This is not "obvious" at all. As long as you are relying on the horn and/or m'pce to produce the (necessary) resistance to be able to play, yes, you are absolutely correct. However, once you transfer that responsibility to your chops, you are much freer in every way. You can play more open equipment and you have more control over every aspect of your playing. =================== > Denis Wick used to recommend >placing the end of your finger over the end of the mpce to replicate that >resistance - it works for me. ============== I have the highest regard for Denis Wick (Really...I admire him immensely.), and I am glad this "works" for you. However, if you were to work for a few weeks on NOT using your finger,, that too would work for you, and it would produce different results. If you are totally happy w/how you are playing...fine. Don't mess w/it. If you are not...and in 30 plus years that happy state has occurred to me personally about .5 times...then keep your eyes open. There are other ways of doing things. Later... S. ---snip--- -- (Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at and/or , email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 13:36:07 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Lindberg Anti-Buzz >At 04:59 PM 4/7/2003 +0100, Keith Marr wrote: >>Seriously, buzzing and playing the instrument aren't (obviously) the same >>because of the difference in resistance. Denis Wick used to recommend >>placing the end of your finger over the end of the mpce to replicate that >>resistance - it works for me. > >I think it is useful to separate the whole buzzing thing into two different >purposes > A) a diagnostic or demonstration aid > > B) a training regimen or warm-up tool > >I don't think anybody has any difficulty with A). If buzzing the >mouthpiece occasionally can help identify some flaws in the embouchure or >pinpoint some potential improvement, that's just great. > >I believe the controversy is in B). If buzzing is suggested as part of the >daily practice regimen other than just some sort of brief "grounding" >exercise, frankly that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The >characteristics of the open mouthpiece is different enough from that of the >complete horn that virtually all of the available face time should be on >the instrument whenever practical. ========== Once again...it depends on the aim. Many people need to play a more or less "resistant" setup. They are the ones who depend on the horn/m'pce system to provide the necessary resistance. Many others...more and mopre over the past 25 years or so (Slide Hampton, David Baker, Joe Alessi, many orchestral "no leadpipe" bass trombonists) play astoundingly large and open horns, and there is constant talk among trombonists about ":How does he DO that?" Regardless of whether you admire or do not admire those-players, the fact is that they CBN "do hat", and my own personal research into the matter in my secret laboratory (also known as my practice room, w/me as the guinea pig), is that the more you succeed in transferring the resistance to the chops, the more you can handle relatively open blowing equipment. Further, the best way to effect this transfer is through buzzing done w/ a modicum of common sense. Works for me, and most gratifyingly, my approach to doing this appears to be working for any number of others as well. This is NOT to say "My way or the highway", just that if this is a desired result (being able to play less resistant equipment, which certainly offers both certain advantages and certain disadvantages) and being able to control the resistance at the chops instead of being totally dependent on the equipment, then buzzing is one good way to achieve this. If not...not. ================ > >You don't see bassoonists spending a lot of practice time practicing with >only their reeds, other then just to annoy the rest of us with that >"wounded duck" sound. ================ That's because their reed is their sound producer. Our chops ARE our "reed" and just as they sit for hours w/a reed knife whittling the perfect reed (looking for the perfect resistance), so can we affect OUR reed we/buzzing. ============== > >When doing B) (lots of mouthpiece buzzing as a training regimen), I think >there is a very real danger of the "leather lip" syndrome, mainly because >the embouchure is having to take on a different formation to compensate for >the lack of resistance. There is a really cheap and easy solution. Spend >$2 for a 9 foot length of plastic tube that has inside diameter of about >6/10". This can easily stow in the glove box of a car, a briefcase, or >satchel. Plug the mouthpiece into that tube and it will behave much more >like the full instrument. The tube will also attenuate the sound, making >the buzzing less conspicuous -- and it isn't nearly as messy. ========== Different idea entirely...and not nearly so effective. S. -- (Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at and/or , email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 14:04:32 -0400 From: "Paul D. Kemp Jr." Subject: Lindberg Anti-Buzz Dear List, Basically what mouthpiece buzzing does is to remove the distraction of the trombone and focuses our attention on the air/buzz relationship. Some people are able to buzz over their entire range of the horn, others, like me, cannot. What I find that mouthpiece buzzing does for me is that it forces me to really concentrate on playing right in the dead center of the pitch. Even if the player does not achieve the center of the note, when the mouthpiece is inserted back into the horn, if the student is careful to reproduce the same effect on the horn as he did on the mouthpiece, there will be a remarkable difference in the clarity of the sound. I do agree with Steve that a main proponent of out instrument denounces something that if done correctly will help the student in many ways. Lindberg has obviously not done very much teaching, and I suspect that if something goes bezerk in his playing, he'll end up having to rebuild his game from the ground up. Perhaps he is not concerned with this, as he has gotten into conducting recently. Perhaps there is a slightly different perspective from being an orchestral performer and being a soloist. I do introduce my students to it, and the more advanced that they become, I do insist on the student come as close as possible to the center of the pitch on the mouthpiece as possible. He is a remarkable player in many ways, and as many others have stated, he has technical facility out the wazoo. However, I have also been a proponent that a great sound is the basis of all technique, and passages played very quickly do not cover up a less than convincing sound. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 14:06:52 -0500 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Re: buzzing its a whole lot more ez to buzz on mpc when drivin around too and a good way to get in needed chop time i sometimes cup both hands around mpc and do haRMONICA STYLE whoops ----harmonica style waffle wow wow --dogs really like this !!!! J.c. Sherman wrote: > Coming from the tubist's perspective, it does seem odd to recommend against > buzzing - on any brass instrument. While opinions may very, no one can deny > that it at least cannot be detrimental - too many fantastic players do it. The > only explanation would be one I don't care to advance in a public forum... > > True - I cannot buzz the same way on both trombones/tubas as I would on the > mouthpiece alone - it has the wrong resistance. Using a finger or the BERP > helps this a great deal(and I use both, but prefer the BERP (need to get one > for full-size tuba shank, though)). However, I think the work is helpful, > regardless. > > Ron Bishop has pointed out that if you are having problems playing a pitch, > guarenteed you'll have trouble buzzing it. Fix the buzz, fix the note. > Regardless if it's the same buzz, it works, time after time, player after > player. > > With my own students, if they have a thin or pinched tone, or a double buzz, > the mouthpiece buzzing has done wonders for them. I have them play tunes, > scales, fun stuff. It makes them more likely to play the mouthpiece with less > embarasment. I really wound't know another way to teach, really... > > However, as you mature, I think the buzz decreases in importance as part of a > daily routine. But I find it very helpful for repairing problems that come up, > expecially with the BERP. > > This works for me, though I'm no Lindberg. But I don't seek to be either... I > seek to be me. > > J.c. Sherman ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 14:53:05 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Lindberg Anti-Buzz I might add here that it has been my live, up close + personal experience that those players who are universally touted as "having a great technique" are most often those whose sound in some way lacks something. Depth, weight, call it what you will. The very word "technique" is too often misused. ----------------------------- technique NOUN: 1. The systematic procedure by which a complex or scientific task is accomplished. 2. a. The way in which the fundamentals, as of an artistic work, are handled. b. Skill or command in handling such fundamentals. (American Heritage Dictionary) ------------------------ Most of the time "He has has so much technique!!!" really means "He can play so fast!!!" "The way in which the fundamentals, as of an artistic work, are handled." says the dictionary. What is more fundamental than sound? And who really cares how fast some trombonist can play? (Besides of course the trombonist and other trombonists who want to be able to do the same thing.) The fastest and most accurate trombonist in the world makes mediocre violinists snicker. The dichotomy between speed and sound is quite logical, of course. Like the boxer/puncher dichotomy in boxing or the power forward/point guard idea in basketball, the more mass you are carrying or power you are producing the less mobility you will have. We all find our own compromise here, and we all like or dislike certain other compromises that other really fine players may have made. So it goes. Later... Sam -- (Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at and/or , email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 14:59:04 -0400 From: Wederquist@AOL.COM Subject: Re: buzzing Re: [TBN-L] buzzing Re: [TBN-L] buzzing This has been a very interesting discussion on the areas of mpc buzzing and Mr. Lindberg. After having attended a couple of Mr. Lindberg's masterclasses as an observer, I was first pleased on his ability to communicate and work with the students and make basic corrections in their playing. Let's face it, isn't that the whole idea? However, when he began to speak in definitives he lost a large part of his audience. As a teacher of younger students, I've learned that the words "never" and "always" are a dead give away for a lack of experience. Does mpc buzzing work for Mr. Lindberg? Apparently not. Does it give immediate aural feedback to a 5th grade trombone student on how to control his/her air flow along with controlling their embochure? I'll let you answer that based on your experience. In most of my students it does. As for musicality, I often use Mr. Lindberg's recordings (and others) for teaching examples. But again, if used as the definitive example are we serving our students the best possible way? Musicality and creativity should be nutured from within the student, not set down as external laws. What is the correct way to play or teach? It must be a mutifaceted approach with the ability to adapt to the individual student/performer. Jon Wederquist ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 15:09:04 -0400 From: Jim Gayfer Subject: Re: Lindberg Anti-Buzz Paul, I think the point you made about pitch is one of the most important to consider when it comes to buzzing on the mouthpiece. I've seen so many players walking around buzzing aimlessly with no sense of buzzing a true pitch. I insist that my students use a piano, a pitch pipe, or their horn, to ensure that they are buzzing in tune. Also, I find that many people force the buzz and therefore buzz too loudly. I've demonstrated this to students by having them buzz a pitch and then insert the mouthpiece into the horn while still maintaining the buzz. Often, they find themselves playing a fortissimo. That's some way to warm up!! Jim Gayfer Ottawa, ON -----Original Message----- From: Paul D. Kemp Jr. [mailto:trbnplyr@COMCAST.NET] Sent: April 07, 2003 2:05 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] Lindberg Anti-Buzz Dear List, Basically what mouthpiece buzzing does is to remove the distraction of the trombone and focuses our attention on the air/buzz relationship. Some people are able to buzz over their entire range of the horn, others, like me, cannot. What I find that mouthpiece buzzing does for me is that it forces me to really concentrate on playing right in the dead center of the pitch. Even if the player does not achieve the center of the note, when the mouthpiece is inserted back into the horn, if the student is careful to reproduce the same effect on the horn as he did on the mouthpiece, there will be a remarkable difference in the clarity of the sound. I do agree with Steve that a main proponent of out instrument denounces something that if done correctly will help the student in many ways. Lindberg has obviously not done very much teaching, and I suspect that if something goes bezerk in his playing, he'll end up having to rebuild his game from the ground up. Perhaps he is not concerned with this, as he has gotten into conducting recently. Perhaps there is a slightly different perspective from being an orchestral performer and being a soloist. I do introduce my students to it, and the more advanced that they become, I do insist on the student come as close as possible to the center of the pitch on the mouthpiece as possible. He is a remarkable player in many ways, and as many others have stated, he has technical facility out the wazoo. However, I have also been a proponent that a great sound is the basis of all technique, and passages played very quickly do not cover up a less than convincing sound. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 12:44:03 -0700 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Lindberg Anti-Buzz --- Anders Carlsson wrote: > Instead we should listen to a trombone performance and > ask > ourselves: How close is this to Casals or Oistrach? But Casals and Oistrakh had both. Oistrakh in particular was an absolute master of the instrument on every level, technical and otherwise, in addition to being an incredibly communicative musician. Casals also raised the standard of playing for his instrument. I think Lindberg will be surpassed by someone who can play with a similar level of instrumental brilliance and musical excitement but make a tone that is more universally pleasing. ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 12:50:52 -0700 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Lindberg Anti-Buzz -- Craig Parmerlee wrote: > You don't see bassoonists spending a lot of practice time > practicing with > only their reeds, other then just to annoy the rest of us > with that > "wounded duck" sound. But bassoonists spend hours and hours and hours making, trimming, adjusting, sanding, soaking and otherwise treating their reeds so that they respond and sound the way they want. This is essentially directly analogous to the practicing we do to keep our embouchure responsive and strong. And for most of us buzzing plays a significant role in that preacticing. ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 15:54:49 -0400 From: Jerry Lapham Subject: Re: Internal Time In <200304070500.h36ANDDd017303@po.missouri.edu>, on 04/07/03 at 12:00 AM, Automatic digest processor said: > Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 21:08:10 +0200 > From: Simon Bailey > Subject: Re: Internal Time > On Sun, 2003-04-06 at 13:30, Mearl Danner wrote: > > I've heard tales of a high school band in this area that furnished a > > small carpet square for each musician at a contest performance. That > > would at least cut down on the aural distraction. > dunno if this is because of foot tapping -- in one of the bands i play > in, we have carpet squares for our dribble valves... :) Probably so your foot tapping won't splash the puddle. :-) -Jerry -- ============================================================ Jerry Lapham, Monroe, OH E-Mail: rjlapham@infinet.com Written Monday, April 07, 2003 - 03:54 PM (EST) ============================================================ MR/2 Ice tag: Adultery: more fun than infantry. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 14:05:59 -0600 From: Michael Cryer Subject: Re: Lindberg Anti-Buzz Very interesting. Thank you fo sharing that. > As a person living in Sweden I have a bit of insight on > this matter. > > Lindberg is on the BIS label. I have done some recording > with people who works for BIS and with people who > manufacture recording gear for BIS. These guys are > audiophiles. I'm sure they have done some cutting but > they're not doing any sound altering like on pop albums. > For instance none of the recordings are done in in a studio > and almost all of them are made in the same school > auditorium due to it's accoustical features. > > /Anders Carlsson > Gothenburg Sweden > > blue_trombone@INTERFOLD.COM writes: >> Studios have the ability to make a person sound much >>richer than they >>normally would in person. For example when Frank Sinatra's >>voice was >>starting to get gruff in the 50's, they were able to cover >>that up in the >>studio recordings. Lindberg is Lindberg. I have no problem >>with his >>airiness, he can kick just about everyone's ass in >>technique. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 16:01:37 -0400 From: Danny Beckley Subject: Re: Lindberg Anti-Buzz Do I really advise sudents to buzz when they could be playing on the instrument instead? Absolutely. So much ground can be covered when the student takes away the instrument and just practices at the source of the sound. This is especially true in the development of a clean, smooth, "twa-less" legato. This would be not be for demonstation or diagnostic purposes, this would be for actual development. By having the student play a legato passage on the mouthpiece, without tongue, and with big, fat, even and audible glisses between the notes, the student gets the feeling of blowing through music, not stopping or pulsing the air, etc. The same concept could be applied to something not at all legato, like William Tell, in order to get the student to keep the air moving through the whole passage like you're blowing whole tones. (In this case, the student is me...) And of course in the areas centering notes, eliminating crunch or cracks in attacks, etc, buzzing works wonders. Everything in moderation of course. But, if you can't buzz it, you can't play it. -Danny >On Mon, 07 Apr 2003 02:07:46 -0500, Craig Parmerlee wrote > > At 11:01 PM 4/6/2003 -0400, Danny Beckley wrote: > > >Does anyone have an explanation for this which would support buzzing? If > > >word of this "buzzing stinks" philosophy gets out to my students.... > > >well... that could be bad. > > > > Why? Don't they have trombones? Why would anybody ever choose to > > buzz on a mouthpiece if they could buzz on the whole instrument instead? > > > > I realize that mouthpiece buzzing can be useful in certain > > diagnostic or demonstration situations. And if there isn't an > > option to play on the horn > > (e.g. on vacation without the instrument), mouthpiece buzzing is > > probably better than no buzzing, but do you really advise students > > to do this when they could be playing on the instrument instead? > > > > Just curious, > > Craig ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 16:22:27 EDT From: Stephen Colley Subject: Great moments in Buzzing... For those in attendence, Jay Friedman's warmup at last year's ITA Workshop in Denton was a classic. In his casual but entirely serious manner, Jay said "Pick a tune you like and just wake up the chops...something like this..." Then played "When You Wish Upon A Star". Think about it. It starts with an octave, then stepwise down the scale...it's perfect. Jay was clear that it's not to be strained nor too clear. Just gentle. Try it! Not sure where he stands on buzzing. Just sure he's every bit as lyrical and full of technique as our Swedish friend. Probably has something to do with the hairline... Steve Stephen Colley www.tuneupsystems.com 804-852-8219 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 16:29:39 -0400 From: Danny Beckley Subject: Re: Lindberg Anti-Buzz/Anti-Breathing? My my, what a can of worms I have opened... My impression of Lindberg is that he is a player with superb technique (take that to mean less than gorgeous sound if you will) and a rather inexperienced teacher. To this end, I would be worried about students (by which I mean mid-college level and younger) hearing his masterclass and putting huge stock in his philosophies because of his stature as a player. He has achieved great heights as a player, done a world of good for the trombone, but as a teacher he is lacking. I say this not only because of his anti-buzz stance, but also because of his anti-breathing stance. huh? ROUND 2: DING DING! Yes, that's right. That was the second disagreeable point he made at his masterclass. Now, to give him some credit, I'm sure he believes that breathing is good insofar as it supports life, etc. Furthermore, he is a huge advocate of straight posture in order to keep the airways open and the lungs free to expand. Bravo for that. However, to quote him almost verbatim (well, in the general ballpark): "Breathing is overtaught... Don't think about it or work for it... just stand straight and the air will go where it needs to go.... Breathing excersises are detrimental..." If I told a student (beginner-advanced amateur) this, what would result? Less-than-fabulous tone, small dynamic range, very weak high and low registers, etc. Hence, my argument that students need to be careful and very selective in looking up to Mr. Lindberg. However, in regards to what Sam said about the detriment of "it's my way or the highway", the teacher must be careful to shield the student from such lessons, keeping the student on the correct path while at the same time allowing the student latitude for their own individual exploration and expression. The balance of these things depends on the maturity of the student. -Danny ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul D. Kemp Jr." To: Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 2:04 PM Subject: [TBN-L] Lindberg Anti-Buzz > Dear List, > Basically what mouthpiece buzzing does is to remove the distraction > of the trombone and focuses our attention on the air/buzz relationship. > Some people are able to buzz over their entire range of the horn, > others, like me, cannot. What I find that mouthpiece buzzing does for me > is that it forces me to really concentrate on playing right in the dead > center of the pitch. Even if the player does not achieve the center of > the note, when the mouthpiece is inserted back into the horn, if the > student is careful to reproduce the same effect on the horn as he did on > the mouthpiece, there will be a remarkable difference in the clarity of > the sound. I do agree with Steve that a main proponent of out instrument > denounces something that if done correctly will help the student in many > ways. Lindberg has obviously not done very much teaching, and I suspect > that if something goes bezerk in his playing, he'll end up having to > rebuild his game from the ground up. Perhaps he is not concerned with > this, as he has gotten into conducting recently. Perhaps there is a > slightly different perspective from being an orchestral performer and > being a soloist. I do introduce my students to it, and the more advanced > that they become, I do insist on the student come as close as possible > to the center of the pitch on the mouthpiece as possible. He is a > remarkable player in many ways, and as many others have stated, he has > technical facility out the wazoo. However, I have also been a proponent > that a great sound is the basis of all technique, and passages played > very quickly do not cover up a less than convincing sound. > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 16:53:23 -0400 From: Danny Beckley Subject: Re: Lindberg Anti-Buzz I apply the term "student" to the types of people that I teach, which would include beginners - advanced amateurs. Mouthpiece buzzing is extremely important at the beginner level, and I actually have those students buzz on their mouthpieces for the first week or two before they are even allowed to touch the horn. Most of my beginners have already "begun" under another teacher (one that is usually ineffective, in regards to brass instruction), and I find myself having to do a major "overhaul" of the student. Said student comes into my lesson, plays a few notes, I stop the student, tell him to put away the trombone, and we hit breathing (with a hint of buzzing) for the first lesson, buzzing & breathing for the second, and then maybe the actual trombone in the third lesson. From that point on, buzzing becomes less and less a part of the student's practice routine as the student advances. But, I don't think it should ever completely disappear from the practice routine. It helps keep things on track, pitches centered, etc. However, it doesn't take up much time in my practice routine any more. Maybe 2-3 minutes a day during my warm-up time, and then occasionally as needed based on what I'm working on. Buzzing is merely a tool to improve sound... I don't think it helps musical development or expression any better than playing the horn. That is, after all, why you don't hear the mouthpiece used alone as an instrument (except in the case of Wycliffe Gordon). Until I find myself sitting ahead of Charlie Vernon, I think my sound will always have room for improvement, hence the buzz. -Danny ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Parmerlee" To: "bass_trombonist" Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 2:54 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Lindberg Anti-Buzz > I guess by using the term "student" the implication might be that they are > early in their studies and have inferior sound production. Certainly I > agree that some mouthpiece work can help get to the root issues. No debate > on that at all. > > On the other hand, if you have a student (we are all students, after all) > that has a good sound in all respects, do you still advise a considerable > percentage of time on the mouthpiece alone? I'm having trouble seeing the > point of that. It seems to me that there are so many elements of being a > "complete musician" that if the sound is already very polished, there are > many other places to focus -- placed where the mouthpiece buzzing is > completely irrelevant, if not counterproductive. > > I mean, I wouldn't see the point of trying to use mouthpiece buzzing to > improve the interpretation of a musical passage. I guess such a thing is > possible, but I don't understand why one wouldn't go directly at it by > working on the horn. > > Cheers, > Craig > > > > > > > At 12:32 PM 4/7/2003 -0500, you wrote: > >Do I really advise sudents to buzz when they could be playing on the > >instrument instead? > > > >Absolutely. > > > >So much ground can be covered when the student takes away the instrument and > >just practices at the source of the sound. This is especially true in the > >development of a clean, smooth, "twa-less" legato. This would be not be for > >demonstation or diagnostic purposes, this would be for actual development. By > >having the student play a legato passage on the mouthpiece, without tongue, > >and with big, fat, even and audible glisses between the notes, the student > >gets the feeling of blowing through music, not stopping or pulsing the air, > >etc. The same concept could be applied to something not at all legato, like > >William Tell, in order to get the student to keep the air moving through the > >whole passage like you're blowing whole tones. (In this case, the student is > >me...) > > > >And of course in the areas centering notes, eliminating crunch or cracks in > >attacks, etc, buzzing works wonders. > > > >Everything in moderation of course. But, if you can't buzz it, you can't play > >it. > > > >-Danny > > > > > > > >On Mon, 07 Apr 2003 02:07:46 -0500, Craig Parmerlee wrote > > > At 11:01 PM 4/6/2003 -0400, Danny Beckley wrote: > > > >Does anyone have an explanation for this which would support buzzing? If > > > >word of this "buzzing stinks" philosophy gets out to my students.... > > > >well... that could be bad. > > > > > > Why? Don't they have trombones? Why would anybody ever choose to > > > buzz on a mouthpiece if they could buzz on the whole instrument instead? > > > > > > I realize that mouthpiece buzzing can be useful in certain > > > diagnostic or demonstration situations. And if there isn't an > > > option to play on the horn > > > (e.g. on vacation without the instrument), mouthpiece buzzing is > > > probably better than no buzzing, but do you really advise students > > > to do this when they could be playing on the instrument instead? > > > > > > Just curious, > > > Craig > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 16:08:35 -0500 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: Lindberg Anti-Buzz At 2:07 AM -0500 4/7/03, Craig Parmerlee wrote: >Why would anybody ever choose to buzz on >a mouthpiece if they could buzz on the whole instrument instead? > >I realize that mouthpiece buzzing can be useful in certain diagnostic or >demonstration situations. And if there isn't an option to play on the horn >(e.g. on vacation without the instrument), mouthpiece buzzing is probably >better than no buzzing, but do you really advise students to do this when >they could be playing on the instrument instead? > >Just curious, >Craig ====== Pedagogy... teaching technique. Not everyone plays effortlessly or with a great tone. Some have problems. It's good to isolate those problems so you can try to help the student correct them. Take some of the hardware away... Makes sense to me. I have students to "free" buzz sometimes, too. No horn; no mouthpiece... let's just see some BASIC brass technique. "What 'cha got?" But yes -- if there are no problems, then why not just play the horn? I understand that. :-) Wayne Dyess P.S. Tom Izzo -- I know it isn't a "horn." It's a trombone. Forgive me. :-) -- ========================= Dr. J. Wayne Dyess, Professor of Music Lamar University Music Department P. O. Box 10044 Beaumont, Texas 77710 409-880-8146 FAX: 409-880-8143 dyessjw@hal.lamar.edu http://www.lamar.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 17:32:39 -0400 From: Bill Redgate Subject: Lindberg Buzz Bit After reading the list's reaction to Mr. Lindberg's alleged remarks, I am rather surprised that no one mentioned the one thing in all this that I would have hoped they would. That being that Mr. Lindberg was hired to tell the audience how HE does it - and that he did. The guy is allowed and opinion and while no one here has even come close to running him down for it, I just haven't felt "a whole lotta' luv" for the man who is brave enough to stand up in front of folks and tell his ideas - even if they are somewhat unconventional. In the established "Academic Music" community, going against "conventional wisdom" is extraordinarily hard to do; Especially if you want to maintain any standing with in the "community." Mr. Lindberg's standing in the community is doubtless at this point on reputation alone - not to mention ability and talent. None the less , to support an unusual practice or attitude - publicly - is a stroke of bravery and worthy of note. That having been said, I also feel the whole argument clarifies the truism I learned through my dalliances in Aviation. "Conventional Wisdom" there is that everyone has an opinion and a way to do things. You have to find the one that's right for you and make it work. Not terribly witty or glamorous - but effective. The wind is blowing through the leaves and branches. Mr. Lindberg's is but one voice in a multitude. Realize that and listen harder for the one that speaks to you. Bill Redgate Atlanta Georgia ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 23:49:36 +0200 From: Anders Carlsson Subject: Re: Lindberg Anti-Buzz I think you know what I mean. Casals wouldn't have his cello sound on a kazoo but his ideas of timing, phrasing, vibrato etc. could be the same on a kazoo. Sound is one parameter of music but there are others. Sure if I really tried to misunderstand myself I could argue that all parameters of music are sound. But in this context I meant timbre. Maybe I should've phrased it differently as it was possible to misunderstand. /Anders Carlsson Gothenburg Sweden sabutin writes: > But Anders...music IS sound. Would Casals sound as >good on a kazoo? > > S. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 00:30:05 +0200 From: Anders Carlsson Subject: Re: Lindberg Anti-Buzz/Anti-Breathing? If you're at a masterclass with someone you really have to be equally critical as amazed or the other way around. Ask yourself, why does Lindberg say these things? Remember he is a player that started playing at 17, got into college at 18. (In Sweden we can't just pay the tuition to get into college, you have to win the audition). Got a job in the Stockholm Royal Opera orchestra at 19 and quit that job at 20 to become a soloist against all advisors. He hasn't had any technical problems at all. He hasn't had any students who weren't already on a top level. Is he really then the right person to give advice on stuff like breathing or buzzing? Not really. It's been a few years since I attended a master class/clinic with him but I can say a few things about what I think is good with him. Music. No matter what his sound is like, when he plays a solo it's a matter of life and death. That's something I haven't heard any other brass player do in the classical field. When it comes to sheer beauty of sound, well we had Michel Bequet a few days at college and that was amazing. Not emotional enough for me but extremely beautiful. Neither he nor Lindberg would fit in an orchestral section but that's another issue. i have had teachers over here who can testify on difficulties with playing quartet with him in college. He is as intense as he plays. Determination. To decide as a 20 year old to become the first classical full time trombone soloist against the advice of your teachers (Ralph Sauer and likes). Built his own portable practice booth to bring to London, LA and wherever he took lessons to be able to practice in hotel rooms. Organization/Practice. He showed us his practice schedule. Detailed to the hour for the next months and in more broad strokes for the next six months. I don't remember how many new pieces for trombone he has premiered but I believe it's over 60. At the master class a few years ago he told us that he on average got two new pieces sent to him A DAY. I like his soundS as a soloist. In an orchestral player I'd look for other sounds. /Anders Carlsson Gothenburg Sweden >Danny Beckley writes: >I say this not only because of his anti-buzz stance, but >also because of his >anti-breathing stance. >huh? ROUND 2: DING DING! > >Yes, that's right. That was the second disagreeable point >he made at his >masterclass. Now, to give him some credit, I'm sure he >believes that >breathing is good insofar as it supports life, etc. >Furthermore, he is a >huge advocate of straight posture in order to keep the >airways open and the >lungs free to expand. Bravo for that. However, to quote >him almost verbatim >(well, in the general ballpark): > >"Breathing is overtaught... Don't think about it or work >for it... just >stand straight and the air will go where it needs to >go.... Breathing >excersises are detrimental..." > >If I told a student (beginner-advanced amateur) this, what >would result? >Less-than-fabulous tone, small dynamic range, very weak >high and low >registers, etc. > >Hence, my argument that students need to be careful and >very selective in >looking up to Mr. Lindberg. However, in regards to what >Sam said about the >detriment of "it's my way or the highway", the teacher >must be careful to >shield the student from such lessons, keeping the student >on the correct >path while at the same time allowing the student latitude >for their own >individual exploration and expression. The balance of >these things depends >on the maturity of the student. > >-Danny > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 17:57:38 -0500 From: Carl Lenthe Subject: Re: Score for Blue Topaz Unless I'm mis-informed, there is no score to that piece - or many of the other Pederson items. I've 'conducted' it from the 1st trombone and from the solo part by marking in lots of cues, etc. If a definitive edition of these works does evolve, scores would be a welcome improvement. Even when doing it without a conductor, the score would help to more quickly analyze ensemble issues. Carl Lenthe http://www.indiana.edu/~trombone/StudioLenthe.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Fleming" To: Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 2:57 AM Subject: [TBN-L] Score for Blue Topaz > Does anyone have a score for the trombone choir Blue Topaz by Tommy > Pederson? I'm performing it soon, and would love to have a score to > work from. If you do, please let me know either on the list or > privately, and perhaps we could work something out. > > Thanks much, > Kevin Fleming ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 18:56:57 EDT From: BITEensemble@AOL.COM Subject: the buzz This is really quite simple: Buzz to play - don't buzz to buzz. If your buzz sounds big and full and, well, buzzy - it is probably not really benefiting you beyond building muscle (arguably the wrong muscles). I used to study with a tuba player who would always say "fill the mouthpiece with buzz." NO!!!!!! - what a waste of time [years]! Fill the mouthpiece with air, just as if you were playing. Buzzing "loud'n proud" is as absurd a concept as playing with NO pressure. I pity those players who honk away at their mouthpieces as if they were playing Mahler to an audience of 20,000 with no trombone around. And if you do play this way, check out your tuning slide - I'd bet it is pulled out pretty far (or you are just chronically sharp), because you are probably playing too #$%% tight. Relax, playing trombone doesn't have to feel like weight lifting. -Wes Wesley Hopper Trombone, Triton Brass Quintet Adjunct Professor of Trombone, Boston College 80.5 Kinnaird Street Cambridge, MA 02139 www.tritonbrass.org 617.497.5246 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 19:20:28 -0400 From: Danny Beckley Subject: Re: Lindberg Anti-Buzz/Anti-Breathing? Well, as of this weekend, he said the number of pieces he has premiered is over 80, and that is indeed impressive. I'm not saying I'm not impressed with him, because I am. I was just surprised that he is clearly so inexperienced as a teacher, since pretty much every other big league player also has an enormous amount of teaching under his or her belt. Of course, those that I am referring to are all orchestral trombonists.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anders Carlsson" To: Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 6:30 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Lindberg Anti-Buzz/Anti-Breathing? > If you're at a masterclass with someone you really have to > be equally critical as amazed or the other way around. Ask > yourself, why does Lindberg say these things? > > Remember he is a player that started playing at 17, got > into college at 18. (In Sweden we can't just pay the > tuition to get into college, you have to win the audition). > Got a job in the Stockholm Royal Opera orchestra at 19 and > quit that job at 20 to become a soloist against all > advisors. He hasn't had any technical problems at all. He > hasn't had any students who weren't already on a top level. > Is he really then the right person to give advice on stuff > like breathing or buzzing? Not really. > > It's been a few years since I attended a master > class/clinic with him but I can say a few things about what > I think is good with him. > > Music. No matter what his sound is like, when he plays a > solo it's a matter of life and death. That's something I > haven't heard any other brass player do in the classical > field. When it comes to sheer beauty of sound, well we had > Michel Bequet a few days at college and that was amazing. > Not emotional enough for me but extremely beautiful. > Neither he nor Lindberg would fit in an orchestral section > but that's another issue. i have had teachers over here who > can testify on difficulties with playing quartet with him > in college. He is as intense as he plays. > > Determination. To decide as a 20 year old to become the > first classical full time trombone soloist against the > advice of your teachers (Ralph Sauer and likes). Built his > own portable practice booth to bring to London, LA and > wherever he took lessons to be able to practice in hotel > rooms. > > Organization/Practice. He showed us his practice schedule. > Detailed to the hour for the next months and in more broad > strokes for the next six months. > > I don't remember how many new pieces for trombone he has > premiered but I believe it's over 60. At the master class a > few years ago he told us that he on average got two new > pieces sent to him A DAY. > > I like his soundS as a soloist. In an orchestral player I'd > look for other sounds. > > /Anders Carlsson > Gothenburg Sweden > > >Danny Beckley writes: > >I say this not only because of his anti-buzz stance, but > >also because of his > >anti-breathing stance. > >huh? ROUND 2: DING DING! > > > >Yes, that's right. That was the second disagreeable point > >he made at his > >masterclass. Now, to give him some credit, I'm sure he > >believes that > >breathing is good insofar as it supports life, etc. > >Furthermore, he is a > >huge advocate of straight posture in order to keep the > >airways open and the > >lungs free to expand. Bravo for that. However, to quote > >him almost verbatim > >(well, in the general ballpark): > > > >"Breathing is overtaught... Don't think about it or work > >for it... just > >stand straight and the air will go where it needs to > >go.... Breathing > >excersises are detrimental..." > > > >If I told a student (beginner-advanced amateur) this, what > >would result? > >Less-than-fabulous tone, small dynamic range, very weak > >high and low > >registers, etc. > > > >Hence, my argument that students need to be careful and > >very selective in > >looking up to Mr. Lindberg. However, in regards to what > >Sam said about the > >detriment of "it's my way or the highway", the teacher > >must be careful to > >shield the student from such lessons, keeping the student > >on the correct > >path while at the same time allowing the student latitude > >for their own > >individual exploration and expression. The balance of > >these things depends > >on the maturity of the student. > > > >-Danny > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 19:44:14 -0400 From: tbonegib@BELLSOUTH.NET Subject: Re: Buzzing, et al It's been a while, but think I'll chime in on this one. Lots of up and coming young players read these threads......this is for you. I had a great experience with a grad student of mine recently. A superb jazz player, he knows very little about orchestral rep. I was explaining the idea of "over-breathing" to him as he was curious how he might project a bigger lead-bone sound more easily with better endurance. I used the Brahms 1 chorale as an example of how too big a breath will shoot you in the foot. i said "Imagine sitting for 30 minutes, and other than a handful of notes, coming in basically cold on high (singing this to him): A-E-E-F-F-G-F-F-E-F. He says 'Wow,I see why legit players freak out on that. That is tough. Let me try it......' So, he commences to play a beautiful DOUBLE high A and then the entire chorale UP AN OCTAVE, flawlessly. "Yeah....that's pretty rough. glad I'll never have to do that" I chuckled and said, "It's not quite as rough down an octave;-)" Moral of the story: you want to make something harder than it is, go right ahead. THINK that it's "hard" and it will be, for sure. BUT, as you become a better and better musician, you'll discover that allowing things to be easy is a skill worth developing (or worth "letting"). You can put roadblocks in your way at every step. You can assume that if you religiously practice A, B, and C, you'll inevitably play wonderfully and thus win a gig.Play lip slurs every day, buzz every day, do scales every day, work your range every day.......and you still might not win a gig. Why? Because you are not them. You are you. You may benefit from buzzing, slurring, etc., or you might suffer. Self discovery is what sets the best apart from the rest. Try everything. Shelve the stuff that's not working. The bottom line is what comes out the bell on stage. Let the music dictate your practice regimen. Refer back always to AIRFLOW and have a real concept of sound in your head. If the sound's coming out the way it's heard in your head, be glad and don't go searching for "problems". If the sound's coming easily, go with it. Don't assume that it should be hard. But constantly refine your concept of sound. Play with the sound YOU like. Play the equipment that allows you to get YOUR sound. Do the practice routine that lets you sound like YOU. This will take up all of your time and energy. So much so that you won't have time to worry about what others are saying and doing. You can simply listen and appreciate THEIR concept of sound and THEIR artistry. If it doesn't appeal to you, fine. That doesn't make it bad. That makes it different. Thank God for that! While you may not like Christian's sound, I'm pretty sure he DOES. And that's all I need. I don't need to like his sound to marvel at his artistry. If there is a perfect trombone sound, I haven't heard it. Seems to me that many,many different concepts of sound are quite valid. In fact, I love the variety I hear in so many players, while perhaps not choosing to emulate. You never know where you might find inspiration, ideas, motivation, musicality. Don't judge. just listen. Absorb the musical shapes that all great players make and let it creep into your playing. And please think thrice before criticizing anybody that doesn't make the sound you wish to make. What is gained by that? I can tell you where that leads, but suffice it to say it's a habit worth avoiding. Find a concept that works for you. Strive every moment to share that sound with the world. Allow others to do the same and admire their dedication. LET things be easy if they're easy for you. Find practical solutions to musical problems and get out of your own way. I can't tell you how many students I've had that could win a gig tomorrow if they LET themselves play well and spent more time making great shapes with sound. They'd find that they could afford much less time on honing "technique". The few that have figured that out have won their gigs. While they're discovering new phrases, new sound pallettes, new musical settings, the others are figuring out how much buzzing, slurring, tonguing, they need to do each day to catch up. Be YOU. Don't try to be THEM. Strive with all sincerity and admire others that are doing the same. Dr. Tom Gibson Georgia State University School of Music ph: 404-651-1740 trombonelessons.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 01:50:51 +0100 From: Keith Marr Subject: Reynolds Contempora I'm looking for an Allan Ostrander model Reynolds Contempora 2-valve bass for big band work, and at present am not having a lot of luck. There was a good example just this week on eBay that went for $650 but the seller wouldn't sell to the UK even though I was prepared to pay the shipping - how frustrating! Anyone out there got a decent example of this instrument? I'm prepared to go up to $1000 for top condition. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Keith in Bb/F/D www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------- "Are you still wasting your time with spam?... There is a solution!" Protected by Yaga Company's SpamHunter 3.2 The most powerful anti-spam software available. http://www.junkfighter.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 21:02:19 -0500 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Re: Reynolds Contempora i ship to england lots -next time get ahold of me i have put this in numerous posts too --- so kick yourself in the approiate place i said i b4 if you need help getting stuff to england ask !!!!!!!!!!! -------------- references available --each reference add 25 $$$ how many you want ?????? Keith Marr wrote: > I'm looking for an Allan Ostrander model Reynolds Contempora 2-valve bass > for big band work, and at present am not having a lot of luck. There was a > good example just this week on eBay that went for $650 but the seller > wouldn't sell to the UK even though I was prepared to pay the shipping - how > frustrating! > > Anyone out there got a decent example of this instrument? I'm prepared to go > up to $1000 for top condition. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Keith in Bb/F/D www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > "Are you still wasting your time with spam?... There is a solution!" > Protected by Yaga Company's SpamHunter 3.2 The most powerful > anti-spam software available. http://www.junkfighter.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 18:26:07 -0700 From: Larry White Subject: Re: Bach mouthpiece plating? Do you have natural gas heating at your residence or where you keep your mouthpiece? We have found that natural gas fumes in the house causes items to tarnish quicker than say electric heat. What is the cause, we don't know. Just an observation my wife made some years ago. L White "Avery, Ray (232)" wrote: > I have a related question. I've had a Yamaha signature Yeo mp for about a > year now, and it is still in great shape, no tarnish has appeared. Last > fall I bought a Schilke for my tenor and had it gold plated - it tends to > tarnish quickly. The bass gets used daily, the tenor about once a week. I > keep the Schilke in a leather pouch since it won't fit in the extra mp hole > in the case (sticks up too far). Does the leather cause the gold to > tarnish, or could it be a poorer quality gold than on the Yeo mp? > > Ray Avery > Director, Human Resources > Harvard Custom Manufacturing, Inc. > 607-687-7669 > > -----Original Message----- > From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL [mailto:richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL] > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 10:05 AM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: [TBN-L] Bach mouthpiece plating? > > I bought a new mouthpiece at ETW. Doubled my collection at one shot. > Well, maybe not quite, but I'm not a mouthpiece freak, I've been playing a 6 > 1/2 AL on a Bach 42B for years. (I used a 6 1/2 AL small shank on my .500 > horn for a while, but last year went to a 12C with good results, so I > thought I'd test the big horn too.) > > A number of otherwise respectable people have alleged the 5G would be more > suitable for a .547 horn, and in a weak moment I succumbed and bought one. > > And I've worn it out already! What's up with that? 10 days old, and the > plating is wearing off the rim? And it hasn't been banging around loose in > a case, during most of that time the trombone sat out on a stand. Now I > wish I'd bought it locally, I'd have returned it by now. Maybe this is why > some of you have so many . ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 22:23:21 -0500 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: Lindberg Anti-Buzz/Anti-Breathing? At 4:29 PM -0400 4/7/03, Danny Beckley wrote: >"Breathing is overtaught... Don't think about it or work for it... just >stand straight and the air will go where it needs to go.... Breathing >excersises are detrimental..." > >If I told a student (beginner-advanced amateur) this, what would result? >Less-than-fabulous tone, small dynamic range, very weak high and low >registers, etc. But doesn't this approach follow Mr. Remington's "conversational" breath philosophy? I couldn't disagree with the statement that breathing is over-taught. I just happen to think it's MIS-taught much of the time. We often hear directors say "more air", or just "air" -- without so much as an explanation of what they REALLY mean. It looks to me that the point is... don't think so much about it. Just DO it. Nuttin' wrong with that in my book. That's another pet peeve of mine -- many directors just plain talk too much. They like the sound of their voice, me-thinks. :-) Just DO it, mon. Best wishes, Wayne Dyess -- ========================= Dr. J. Wayne Dyess, Professor of Music Lamar University Music Department P. O. Box 10044 Beaumont, Texas 77710 409-880-8146 FAX: 409-880-8143 dyessjw@hal.lamar.edu http://www.lamar.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 23:42:48 -0500 From: Gary Greenhoe Subject: Re: Lindberg Anti-Buzz/Anti-Breathing? Well Wayne, As always, you have extreme logic! Breathing properly must be a relaxed, natural process....otherwise all of this discussion of going to extraordinary measures before one even buzzes a sound is an exercise in futility. Yes, it is helpful to explore ways to maximize your breathing, but when I see all the hardware and gymnastics young trombonists run around with these days, I sometimes wonder how/when they ever get to the music part of their education. I'm in no way subscribing to Christian's lectures...I've never been motivated to hear one....but I really don't think there's that much "shock" value in what's been relayed on this list. It's really very simple...."Breathe and attack"...."Breathe and attack"....the three wisest words Remington ever spoke to me, week after week, year after year. It's just a simple rhythm one must learn to turn a phrase, excerpt, passage, whatever... and the more one gets into the mechanics of what is going on, the more unnatural that first note, that beautiful phrase, that exciting orchestral passage tends to sound. Unnatural playing through "forced" breathing techniques seems to have reached an all time high in my book..as I hear multitudes of excellent players in auditions, at shows, in music schools. Your lungs are of finite size and no matter what the hell you do to make them deliver more air than they are capable of expelling, they won't grow. It is really very simple: "conversational breath" as in the Bel Canto school of singing will give any musician the maximum of air with the minimum amount of effort. In my book that's what it's all about....floating the phrases. I see all these breathing tubes, buzzing rings, measuring devices that many people work on daily. I used a machine once or twice in my youth to measure my capacity. It always turned up about 6 litres. I've been reluctant for 20-30 years to actually test myself again, with all the abuse I've put my body through. One of my colleagues has a 6 litre bag...and I decided to sample it one day recently...and to my surprise, I easily filled it. Not scientific, but encouraging as I advance through my fifties. Do I buzz? Yeah, once in awhile, if I'm running late for a particularly sensitive concert. I find if I buzz the mouthpiece while I'm driving to work for five to ten minutes, it helps to warm me up and focus in the few minutes before I go on stage. I would have felt better if I had a twenty minute warm up before performing, but in a pinch it helps. What really works best for me after 30-some years of playing in Milwaukee: Warm up (with Remington warm up's) for a good twenty minutes at least an hour before performing or serious rehearsal. Take a twenty minute break...and then some final shots at any passages that concern me (5 minutes) and I'm ready for anything. And remember, when the Brahms chorale is approaching..."breathe and attack". Just a few rambling thoughts... gary -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Wayne Dyess Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 10:23 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Lindberg Anti-Buzz/Anti-Breathing? At 4:29 PM -0400 4/7/03, Danny Beckley wrote: >"Breathing is overtaught... Don't think about it or work for it... just >stand straight and the air will go where it needs to go.... Breathing >excersises are detrimental..." > >If I told a student (beginner-advanced amateur) this, what would result? >Less-than-fabulous tone, small dynamic range, very weak high and low >registers, etc. But doesn't this approach follow Mr. Remington's "conversational" breath philosophy? I couldn't disagree with the statement that breathing is over-taught. I just happen to think it's MIS-taught much of the time. We often hear directors say "more air", or just "air" -- without so much as an explanation of what they REALLY mean. It looks to me that the point is... don't think so much about it. Just DO it. Nuttin' wrong with that in my book. That's another pet peeve of mine -- many directors just plain talk too much. They like the sound of their voice, me-thinks. :-) Just DO it, mon. Best wishes, Wayne Dyess -- ========================= Dr. J. Wayne Dyess, Professor of Music Lamar University Music Department P. O. Box 10044 Beaumont, Texas 77710 409-880-8146 FAX: 409-880-8143 dyessjw@hal.lamar.edu http://www.lamar.edu ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 6 Apr 2003 to 7 Apr 2003 (#2003-96) **************************************************************