Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 3 Mar 2003 to 4 Mar 2003 (#2003-63) Date: Wednesday, March 5, 2003 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 19 messages totalling 941 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Is there an ideal gap? (7) 2. more on diversity 3. mouthpiece mass 4. ideal gap? 5. FW: [TBN-L] Is there an ideal gap? (4) 6. is there an ideal gap 7. interesting bach 36///1938 8. Was ideal gap? - now Remington (3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:15:01 -0500 From: Bob Osmun Subject: Re: Is there an ideal gap? Gabe is right that there is no "gap" on most trombones. It only is present on some small bore models i.e. King 2B with a machined "trumpet style" receivers. However, the relationship between the end of mouthpiece, and the venturi (smallest diameter of the mouthpipe after the mouthpiece) does exist, and can be compared to the "gap" of machined receivers that have a visible shoulder at the venturi. Trombones, like French horns, some tubas, and cornets have flared mouthpipes that are the mouthpiece receiver. And it is critical for the overall efficiency of the instrument that the distance of the end of the mouthpiece to the venturi be a reasonable amount. It has been my experience that older instruments with worn, or stretched receivers respond poorly in the upper register. The pitch placement or slots become much too wide and make centering pitches difficult. Conversely, when the receiver is too small, or the shank of the mouthpiece is too large to seat in far enough, the opposite is true. The slots become very pronounced, and the low register response suffers. So, you want to know what that optimum distance is? Well, it is somewhere in the middle between too much and too little, where the overall response across the registers is even. It is very much a register related issue. If you want an open low register, less distance is good, but remember that it will be at the expense of a more stable high register. And if you want a more stable high register, then more distance is good. Just think about the rate of expansion of the bore. If you telescope the mouthpiece further away, then the bore opens up more gradually, adding efficiency to the system. And if you telescope the mouthpiece further in, then the bore opens up more rapidly, and reduces efficiency. It comes down to balancing the system to your situation. I find that makers of commercial "lead" mouthpieces will often make the shank larger by .005" at the tip, in order to set the mouthpiece further out, thus improving efficiency and upper register stability. I personally recommend, that if you are not doing the majority of playing in the extreme registers, you should go with the mouthpiece to venturi distance that achieves the greatest balance across the entire range of the instrument. Jim Becker, Senior Technician Osmun Music Inc. jbecker@osmun.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gabriel Langfur" To: Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Is there an ideal gap? > Dear Dan, > > I think I speak for many on the list when I say, huh? > > What are you talking about? > > I thought trombones didn't have gaps like trumpets do > because, unlike a trumpet, the leadpipe IS the mouthpiece > receiver. > > Gabe > > > ===== > Gabe Langfur > Boston, MA > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more > http://taxes.yahoo.com/ > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 08:00:41 -0700 From: Dennis Clason Subject: Re: Is there an ideal gap? > Fellow Trombonatics, > > My Back 4 had a gap of almost 1Ú4 inch. ItŐs always been easy to play, but > also always had a whispery tone. > > I just did the experiment of filling that gap in, by soldering a > short piece > of brass tubing to the end of the shaft. The whisperiness is gone but now > the attacks are unsure, and the trombone doesnŐt slot (lock into > the pitch) > well. > > Is there an ideal gap size, between the mouthpiece and lead pipe? The only pipes I'm aware of that have a trumpet-like gap between the mouthpiece receiver and the leadpipe proper are Jerome Callet's. Standard pipes from Bach, Conn, King and Edwards don't have a mouthpiece receiver, per se. Doug says that Yamaha has purchased some of Callet's pipes to examine, and he has a couple that he's tinkered with. The leadpipe in my Bach bass corroded out, and I needed a replacement, pronto. I could get one from Jerry Callet much quicker than I could a real.bach (and I wasn't terribly happy with the Bach pipe anyway). I like it a lot. I have wondered about the gap in the pipe, and if I should have my mouthpiece shanks shaved down to close the gap. Then I slapped myself on the head and said, "Stop thinking like a trumpet player! If you want to get better, spend more time practicing!". Seriously, trumpet players argue about what the optimal gap is, without any more success than we can decide whether Slide-o-Mix, Trombotine, Ponds, SuperSlick, or pregnant mare's urine is the optimal slide lubricant. Your mileage may vary. Exhibition performed by professionals on a closed course. Do not try this at home. Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:17:53 -0600 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: more on diversity :TROMBONE- > L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of D.J. Kennedy Are you a horn player and what kind of horns do you have. > > Thanks... manny > > Asking DJ what kind of horns he has...that's a dangerous question. jva ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 15:22:22 +0000 From: "J.c. Sherman" Subject: Re: mouthpiece mass I think there's something to this. A lot to this, actually. J.c. Sherman > I hadn't really meant to re-hash the old man vs machine argument but was > surprised to see there can still be more to say on it. > > There seems to be at least one way of looking at it that would leave both > sides correct, strange as it may seem. > > It could be that equipment combinations really do make tremendous > differences, even down to the smallest components like what color lacquer on > the rubber bumper - but the effect rather than having anything to do with > the physics of sound production, is mostly or even solely to the information > fed back to the player. That implies that even fairly gross equipment > parameters like bore size or bell shape might have less importance than the > ability of the human to shape the sound, and accounts for the perception of > large effects from what should be undetectably subtle changes. The human > ear/brain/air/chops machine after all is a pretty amazingly able one. > > How to test this theory? got me. There is a shortage of deaf trombone > players out there and even they probably have too much tactile feedback > occuring. Feedback is drastically altered during heavy alcohol consumption > but it would be hard to separate out other factors. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 15:24:33 +0000 From: "J.c. Sherman" Subject: Re: Is there an ideal gap? Do you mean the gap between the end of the mouthpiece shank and the smallest point of the venturi? J.c. Sherman > Fellow Trombonatics, > > My Back 4 had a gap of almost 1Ú4 inch. ItŐs always been easy to play, but > also always had a whispery tone. > > I just did the experiment of filling that gap in, by soldering a short piece > of brass tubing to the end of the shaft. The whisperiness is gone but now > the attacks are unsure, and the trombone doesnŐt slot (lock into the pitch) > well. > > Is there an ideal gap size, between the mouthpiece and lead pipe? > > DanP > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:29:51 -0500 From: Peter Collins & Sara Wilbur Subject: ideal gap? Hi list, Just barely following this thread but wanted to chime in on it anyway. I have a Callet lead pipe and there is a gap at the end of the mouthpiece. My impression is that that was one of the things that made Callet lead pipes what they were. Am I totally mistaken on this? As far as an ideal gap, I don't know. I do know that trumpet players mess with this a little bit and do find significant changes as a result. That said, my apologies for mentioning trumpet players on the list. ;) Peter Collins Bass Trombone Hamilton Philharmonic ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:40:41 -0600 From: Eric Edwards Subject: FW: [TBN-L] Is there an ideal gap? Dan & All, I think the extension has gone into the throat of the leadpipe, this is causing the flakiness in attack and pitch. Basically it's a trial & adjust process. Adjusting the depth of the mouthpiece into the leadpipe to get the right feel. Thanks Eric ee.bonearzt@verizon.net -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Daniel Pliskin Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 4:55 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] Is there an ideal gap? Fellow Trombonatics, My Back 4 had a gap of almost 1/4 inch. It's always been easy to play, but also always had a whispery tone. I just did the experiment of filling that gap in, by soldering a short piece of brass tubing to the end of the shaft. The whisperiness is gone but now the attacks are unsure, and the trombone doesn't slot (lock into the pitch) well. Is there an ideal gap size, between the mouthpiece and lead pipe? DanP _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 16:18:06 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Is there an ideal gap? >Do you mean the gap between the end of the mouthpiece shank and the >smallest point of the venturi? /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ >I think the extension has gone into the throat of the lead pipe, this is >causing the flakiness in attack and pitch. When I measure how deep the mouthpiece should go into my King 607-F, thereŐs a step at the end of the receiver, where the lead pipe starts. That step is at 1.237Ó. My Bach 4 only went one inch into the receiver, leaving a gap of almost 1Ú4 inch. I butted a piece of thin-walled brass tubing to the end of the mouthpiece and soldered it in place. Then, in a lath, I filed the end down, until there was no longer a gap, and cleaned some solder off of the outside. The mouthpiece now fits the receiver well, with no gap. I am getting used to it, although it took a few hours. As I said, the tone is a lot smoother, more resonant, less whispery. But it doesnŐt slot (lock onto a note) as fast as it used to. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 08:37:27 -0800 From: Price Taylor Subject: Re: FW: [TBN-L] Is there an ideal gap? I have a 1959 Conn 88H...which has the Remington shank. It is a mystery which mouthpieces fit "correctly" into the horn, I am using a Bach large shank and it seems to work fine...although ideally, I have heard I should get something with the old Conn shank or a Schilke. I only bring this up because I think it goes to the point of a mouthpiece fitting properly into the leadpipe, correct? Price -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Eric Edwards Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 8:12 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] FW: [TBN-L] Is there an ideal gap? Gabe & All, it's true we don't have an actual "gap" but there is a real difference if the mouthpiece is too far into the leadpipe. It has something to do with the relationship between the end of the mpce and the venturi, or throat in the leadpipe. I'll try to find out more. Thanks Eric ee.bonearzt@verizon.net Dear Dan, I think I speak for many on the list when I say, huh? What are you talking about? I thought trombones didn't have gaps like trumpets do because, unlike a trumpet, the leadpipe IS the mouthpiece receiver. Gabe ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:15:13 -0600 From: Gary Greenhoe Subject: Re: FW: [TBN-L] Is there an ideal gap? HI Price, Yes, the old Conn leadpipes are truly unique and do work better with a Schilke or Conn mouthpiece shank. There are some other bits of magic in those leadpipes that only work well with the Brown & Sharpe taper. The Bach shank really renders the advantages of that particular leadpipe useless. It will play well, but not with the qualities it's capable of with the proper shank length and mouthpiece taper. Long and Slow is ideal! Regards, Gary -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Price Taylor Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:37 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] FW: [TBN-L] Is there an ideal gap? I have a 1959 Conn 88H...which has the Remington shank. It is a mystery which mouthpieces fit "correctly" into the horn, I am using a Bach large shank and it seems to work fine...although ideally, I have heard I should get something with the old Conn shank or a Schilke. I only bring this up because I think it goes to the point of a mouthpiece fitting properly into the leadpipe, correct? Price -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Eric Edwards Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 8:12 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] FW: [TBN-L] Is there an ideal gap? Gabe & All, it's true we don't have an actual "gap" but there is a real difference if the mouthpiece is too far into the leadpipe. It has something to do with the relationship between the end of the mpce and the venturi, or throat in the leadpipe. I'll try to find out more. Thanks Eric ee.bonearzt@verizon.net Dear Dan, I think I speak for many on the list when I say, huh? What are you talking about? I thought trombones didn't have gaps like trumpets do because, unlike a trumpet, the leadpipe IS the mouthpiece receiver. Gabe ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:55:53 -0800 From: Chris Tune Subject: Re: Is there an ideal gap? Oh! Now I understand why my slide isn't as good as I expected: I was using regular mare's urine. Now how am I going to find one that is pregnant? Chris Tune ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clason" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 7:00 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Is there an ideal gap? > > Fellow Trombonatics, > > > > My Back 4 had a gap of almost 1Ú4 inch. It's always been easy to play, but > > also always had a whispery tone. > > > > I just did the experiment of filling that gap in, by soldering a > > short piece > > of brass tubing to the end of the shaft. The whisperiness is gone but now > > the attacks are unsure, and the trombone doesn't slot (lock into > > the pitch) > > well. > > > > Is there an ideal gap size, between the mouthpiece and lead pipe? > > The only pipes I'm aware of that have a trumpet-like gap between the > mouthpiece receiver and the leadpipe proper are Jerome Callet's. Standard > pipes from Bach, Conn, King and Edwards don't have a mouthpiece receiver, > per se. Doug says that Yamaha has purchased some of Callet's pipes to > examine, and he has a couple that he's tinkered with. > > The leadpipe in my Bach bass corroded out, and I needed a replacement, > pronto. I could get one from Jerry Callet much quicker than I could > a real.bach (and I wasn't terribly happy with the Bach pipe anyway). > I like it a lot. I have wondered about the gap in the pipe, > and if I should have my mouthpiece shanks shaved down to close > the gap. Then I slapped myself on the head and said, "Stop > thinking like a trumpet player! If you want to get better, spend > more time practicing!". > > Seriously, trumpet players argue about what the optimal gap is, without > any more success than we can decide whether Slide-o-Mix, Trombotine, > Ponds, SuperSlick, or pregnant mare's urine is the optimal slide > lubricant. > > Your mileage may vary. Exhibition performed by professionals on > a closed course. Do not try this at home. > > Dennis > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:50:42 -0500 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL Subject: Re: is there an ideal gap Sheesh, Dan. =20 <"My Back 4 had a gap of almost =BC inch. It's always been easy to = play, but also always had a whispery tone. I just did the experiment of filling that gap in, by soldering a short = piece of brass tubing to the end of the shaft. The whisperiness is gone but = now the attacks are unsure, and the trombone doesn't slot (lock into the = pitch) well."> Dan, you've got too much time on your hands. You have a lot of good = ideas, well, probably some are better than others, but no harm is ever done thinking up wacko schemes. It's when you go in the workshop and = actually do stuff that you get scarey. I know from experience, there was that long = ago experiment with homemade fireworks - no need to go into the details. Actually come to think of it I never did learn that lesson, just ran = out of time to build stuff, so I do thought experiments, and we're back to = sentence one, too much time . =20 Just out of curiosity, if the mouthpiece didn't go in far enough, why = wasn't your first thought to turn down the outer diameter of the mouthpiece = shank so it did? Mouthpieces can have a gap and/or they can go in the wrong distance; You've filled the gap but made it difficult to alter the = depth. Also, you're going to have a harp of a time getting it out when it gets stuck. =20 But anyway. The trombone doesn't slot, so something major is wrong. = It can't be that the gap was necessary because most of us don't have a gap = and do fine, so you must have messed something up. I'll assume your craftmanship was equal to the task of a smooth soldering job with no = visible fillet internally or externally. But I'll guess you didn't taper the = tubing afterwards, so it remains cylindrical. The receiver is a Morse taper, = and you inserted a cylindrical element. Now the mouthpiece doesn't go in = as far, and doesn't seal as well because a cylinder will only meet the = walls of a cone at an infinitely thin circle, and that circle will be only as continuous as it is perfect (you cut it with what, a tubing cutter? = plasma arc? eximer laser?) If you measured the gap correctly and cut the = extra tubing accurately, but failed to allow for the taper, then either the mouthpiece doesn't go in as far and wobbles, or you pushed it in too = far and jammed the tubing into the leadpipe throat (I refuse to call it a = venturi because it isn't. but we've had that argument before.) =20 Now, I just realized I've typed two posts in a row without referencing Benade. But I can fix that. You are of course familiar with the = concept of the dual? (two horns of different dimension but the products of areas = are equal) To make your horn slot again, cut another piece of tubing and = solder it to your tuning slide, such that you CREATE a gap at the other end of = the horn to make up for the one you eliminated at the mouthpiece. Yeah, I = know that's not quite what a dual is, but we've never discussed duals here, = I had to throw it in. =20 PS by this time you've had fifty offline posts reminding you that a = Bach 4 is way too big for that horn. Just be patient, you knew that anyway. =20 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:48:20 -0700 From: Dennis Clason Subject: Re: FW: [TBN-L] Is there an ideal gap? > I have a 1959 Conn 88H...which has the Remington shank. It is a mystery > which mouthpieces fit "correctly" into the horn, I am using a Bach large > shank and it seems to work fine...although ideally, I have heard I should > get something with the old Conn shank or a Schilke. Bach mouthpieces are made with Morse #2 taper. Conns were made with another slightly different standard taper. The result, as you've noticed, is that Bach mouthpieces wobble slightly in a Conn receiver. Remington mouthpieces also don't fit Bach receivers too well, although I've never heard of anyone trying to play a Bach with a Remington mouthpiece. Kings use yet another, slightly different taper. It seems to be somewhere in between Bach and Conn, and works adequately with either. Early Yamahas adhere to the Conn taper (I guess Schilke liked that taper), later Yamahas use the Morse #2. Go figure. If you're using a Bach mouthpiece in a Conn receiver, you can put a couple of wraps of teflon thread tape around the shank, and seat the mouthpiece firmly. The teflon tape generally sticks to the brass receiver better than the silver shank. Presto! it fits more correctly. As the teflon wears off you have to repeat this. Why aren't any of these things standard? Who knows -- but at least we have it better than the tuba dudes, where nothing's interchangeable and the wrong shank can render a horn unusable. > > I only bring this up because I think it goes to the point of a mouthpiece > fitting properly into the leadpipe, correct? > > Price > > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. > [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Eric Edwards > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 8:12 PM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: [TBN-L] FW: [TBN-L] Is there an ideal gap? > > > Gabe & All, it's true we don't have an actual "gap" but there is a real > difference if the mouthpiece is too far into the leadpipe. > It has something to do with the relationship between the end of > the mpce and > the venturi, or throat in the leadpipe. > I'll try to find out more. > > Thanks > Eric > ee.bonearzt@verizon.net > > > Dear Dan, > > I think I speak for many on the list when I say, huh? > > What are you talking about? > > I thought trombones didn't have gaps like trumpets do > because, unlike a trumpet, the leadpipe IS the mouthpiece > receiver. > > Gabe > > > ===== > Gabe Langfur > Boston, MA > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more > http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 17:03:10 -0600 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: interesting bach 36///1938 thanks for notes on 36 JOE KOHANSKI wrote: > DJ - I wasn't trying to plead for the case, but if you really are interested in subbing me in, (or yourself out, depending on perspective) I'm thrilled to be in that position, and grateful to you for your largess. Let me know if this is what you want to do, and what you want me to do to make it happen. > > On another front, I have to tell you about the Bach 36 I bought on ebay around Christmas. Horn turns out to be a 36 from 1938-1940, Silver plate, with gold plating over the elaborate engraving along the bell. A good session with Hagrity silver polish and it looks brand new, save some wear to the gold flash inside the bell, and one small spot on the outer slide. No apparent dent work ever to the bell, but some dings had to come out of the tuning slide and slide bow. The engraving is clear, elaborate and attractive. The geometry is different than a current 36: straight gooseneck, a somewhat square shape to the tuning slide, a rounded slide bow as compared with current Bach squared-off bow, and a greater distance between the bell and goosneck sections - more like a 42 than a 36 in that dimension. Outer slide is gold brass and weighs a ton, but after work by Bruce Belo, it moves quite well. The quality of the inner slide extrusion is not great, but Bruce has ! done a nice job with it, and I decided not to go with replacement inners - if at all - until after spending significant time with the horn. > > I need to get opinions from other players, but I find the axe is very interesting. Not as responsive/easy as my current (1973) 36, but a very different and special sound. Very focused, as opposed to the more spread/diffuse projection from my current 36, and capable of taking greater amounts of air/playing louder than my current 36. I find each note is a bit harder to produce, but when it sounds, it is centered and extremely well balanced on the brightness/mellowness spectrum. In ballad playing, it has a bright but singing quality that is very expressive. It feels as if it had been built less for speed and more for singing a line. I really dig the sound of this axe, and it is also the prettiest trombone I've ever had the opportunity to play. I feel that it would be ideal for someone playing first or second in a high quality wind band or an orchestra that has not entirely succumbed to Teutonic darkness. I'm gonna work with it to explore its application to the! stuff I'm working on. Best regards.......Joseph K. > > >>> "D.J. Kennedy" 03/04/03 12:50PM >>> > hey i can prolly find another case -i got in a yamabone new bousefield 681b > from oztralia -no case --the oldie small bachs -very nice > hey no sweat if you want it --- > just call up witchita band and have it sent to you > i have a couple of beat shaped cases like this --worn > ----- > there will be more ---i dunno if you saw that cat scratch fever leather rb > no bids -from vegas ---well ............................. > ---glad you got your old bone happening again > the old besson --nuttin like it --- > -------------- > hey i will forward the ms from wb -get the case !!!!!!! > > JOE KOHANSKI wrote: > > > DJ - you snaked me while I was driving to work! > > > > Congrats on the case - I thought it would go nicely with the Bach 36 I bought from a pawn shop in a gig bag in 1975, which is the only one of my old horns that I kept...and I'm glad I did. I just had the slide rebuilt (new inners) by Bruce Belo, and this horn is feeling and sounding quite good. I keep screwing around with other axes, but am heading toward the conclusion that I had the right one for me all along... And while the horse is out of the barn door given the whacks previously sustained by the bell of this horn, it seems right and just to find it a hardshell home so as to preserve its current state of grooviness...perhaps an SKB.... > > > > Hope you are doing well. Been too busy with other stuff to log onto the OTJ lately, but I'm confident you are continuing to uphold your role as poet laureate to that website. > > > > Best regards, Joe Kohanski (Joebone/Joebonehome) > > > > =============================== > > This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. This communication may contain material protected by the attorney-client privilege. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify the sender at Geffner & Bush by telephone at (818) 973-3200. You will be reimbursed for reasonable costs incurred in notifying us. > > > =============================== > This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. This communication may contain material protected by the attorney-client privilege. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify the sender at Geffner & Bush by telephone at (818) 973-3200. You will be reimbursed for reasonable costs incurred in notifying us. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 17:10:47 -0500 From: Steve Beck Subject: Was ideal gap? - now Remington From: "Price Taylor" > I have a 1959 Conn 88H...which has the Remington shank. I'm surprised your large bore Bach mouthpiece fits properly - unless you meant the mouthpiece itself has a Remington shank. Bach makes a special mouthpiece - such as the 5GR - R meaning Remington which fits perfectly. I find that Schilke's are a decent compromise while standard Bach's do not fit well. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 17:52:42 -0500 From: Lisa & Patrick Bates Subject: Re: Is there an ideal gap? Bob Osmun said "Gabe is right that there is no "gap" on most trombones. It only is = present on some small bore models i.e. King 2B with a machined "trumpet style" receiver." I wondered about this on my King for some time, thinking maybe I had a = piece missing? I have this "gap" and any mouthpiece I've tried in the = horn fits in a lot farther than my other horns. There is a definite lip = just past the end of the mouthpiece. It's not a small bore though, it's = a Duo Gravis. What gives? Do I have an oddball? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 19:02:26 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: Was ideal gap? - now Remington >From: "Price Taylor" >> I have a 1959 Conn 88H...which has the Remington shank. > >I'm surprised your large bore Bach mouthpiece fits properly - unless you >meant the mouthpiece itself has a Remington shank. Bach makes a special >mouthpiece - such as the 5GR - R meaning Remington which fits perfectly. > >I find that Schilke's are a decent compromise while standard Bach's do not >fit well. I have a couple of Bach mouthpieces that fit perfectly, too. But you have to ASK for the Remington or Conn 88H shank. Then and only then do they fit right. :-) Wayne -- ========================= Dr. J. Wayne Dyess, Professor of Music Lamar University Music Department P. O. Box 10044 Beaumont, Texas 77710 409-880-8146 FAX: 409-880-8143 dyessjw@hal.lamar.edu http://www.lamar.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 21:01:45 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Is there an ideal gap? Lord A'mighty, all this verbiage and signifying over something so country simple simple to fix... 1-Make sure that your m'pce goes too far into the receiver. How far is too far? When it begins to play badly. Can't tell if it's playing badly or not? Then you aren't at a point where you will gain much from this whole idea yet, leave it alone or just go w/"Standard". (Whatever THAT is...) If it doesn't go in too far, take it down gently on a lathe until it does. 2-Use some good waterproof window tape to gradually build it back up, testing every 1/16' or so and marking the spots where is feels best...the "sweet spots". Cold be several, could be that each of them is good for one or several things...high, low, flexibility, clarity of breaks, tonguing...and not so good for others. Find the spot you like the best for what you want to do on that horn w/that m'pce, and either continue to use tape to set the m'pce at that depth or have a sleeve put on it that finalizes that depth. I continue to use tape...I use m'pces for several horns sometimes, and also, who knows...I might change my mind. I have been told that a metal to metal meeting and/or the absolutely proper taper match is ideal,, but since I have yet to FEEL that ideal but have certainly felt the advantages of this approach,I continue using it. Someday, maybe... Later... Sam -- (Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at and/or , email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 23:55:35 -0600 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: Was ideal gap? - now Remington At 7:34 PM -0800 3/4/03, Price Taylor wrote: >Wayne (and Sam)...the reason that I jumped in on this is that the used Bach >6 1/2 A that I have SEEMS to work fine. Contrary to the thread, it isn't >loose. It has what I believe to be the original leadpipe. And...it's not a >Remington shank. > >I keep getting told it isn't the right shank...so that's why I asked. It >fits snug -- and supposedly it shouldn't. > >Any theories? I also have a "receiver" that a small shank will fit in and >play in the 88H. Putting a small shank 6 1/2 AL in it makes it about 3/8" >longer than the 6 1/2 A. > >Price ------------------------------------- I am a longtime 88H performer, dating back to 1962! Are you sure it isn't a Remington shank? I'm not sure there is a marking on the mouthpiece that would identify it as such. When I took lessons from Donald Knaub at UT, he had me to switch from my Remington to a 5G. I did and never looked back. The new 88H-SGX came with a 5GR -- I have been told that it is the Bach 5G with a Remington shank and rim. Works for me just GREAT!!! Best of both worlds. Dunno why your 6-1/2 would fit... except that I don't think it usually comes in a large shank at all. It's a small bore kind of mouthpiece. To purchase one for a large bore instrument usually requires a special order. Or if you have a store like ours, they tend to stock mouthpieces expressly for the 88H. Could that be the case? Just wondering. I'm not doubting your word. Just a wondering and wandering mind. Others on the list are much more into equipment data than me. I jess luv ta PLAY!!!! ;-) Best wishes, Wayn -- ========================= Dr. J. Wayne Dyess, Professor of Music Lamar University Music Department P. O. Box 10044 Beaumont, Texas 77710 409-880-8146 FAX: 409-880-8143 dyessjw@hal.lamar.edu http://www.lamar.edu ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 3 Mar 2003 to 4 Mar 2003 (#2003-63) **************************************************************