Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 27 Feb 2003 to 28 Feb 2003 (#2003-59)
Date: Saturday, March 1, 2003 12:00 AM
From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV@PO.MISSOURI.EDU>
Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." <TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU>
To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests <TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU>

There are 17 messages totalling 731 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. "Can anything good come out of Nazereth"
  2. mouthpiece mass (4)
  3. choices & mouthpiece mass (4)
  4. Anybody have one of these...
  5. howard patty ///please
  6. Mouthpiece Wanted...
  7. choices
  8. Choices
  9. <No subject given>
 10. James Nee/abcsbook.us web site
 11. re. James Nee/abcsbook.us

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Feb 2003 05:42:38 -0600
From:    Corliss <rcorliss@MN.ASTOUND.NET>
Subject: "Can anything good come out of Nazereth"

Warning: Not directly linked to trombone.=20

I have a son who would not have a television in his house for two =
reasons: small children and the belief that there was not much of any =
value there. To my suprise I discovered recently that he has taken a =
hundred and eighty degree turn because of a purchase of a TV recorder =
and the service that went with it - Tivo. There is another service =
similar to this.=20

The service tells you what programs are available to you; permits you to =
record them, and then see them when you want - deleting commercials and =
anything that you do not want to take time to see. The first day I used =
I did a search looking for things relating to jazz and found and =
recorded two one hour documentaries on Sidney Bichet and Dizzie =
Gillespie; an hour discussion of melody - what is it, what makes it =
good, with interviews of a number of artists representing various =
musical gendre; an hour program of B. B. King; a two hour program of the =
New Orleans jazz festival, and more. I could hardly believe it! By =
recording a half hour commercial news program I found out that by =
deleting the commercials and the stuff that wasn't any good I could see =
the good stuff in ten minutes. That's twenty more minutes to spend with =
the trombone - see, this is trombone related! =20

When watching a live program the service records what you are watching =
permitting you to hit pause, go get a snack, and then come back and =
resume watching where you left off. When you have seen something very =
interesting you go back and see the same thing again - like a replay in =
sports.=20

What are the implications of this? Let me quote my son: "When this =
catches on commercial TV is doomed!"=20

Here is the relevant web site: http://tivo.com/0.0.asp

Richard Corliss

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Feb 2003 07:45:56 -0500
From:    richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL
Subject: Re: mouthpiece mass

No point in quoting Mike Suter as I just intend to paraphrase him.

But he says basically the equipment isn't as important as the person, even
past some large differences like mouthpiece and bore size.  Or, I would say
the reverse, the person makes much more difference than the equipment.  You
see, all of my theories on feedback ultimately depend on the differences in
sound being caused by the player's brain and not the chunk of brass we're
holding.  That sounds a little extreme, and I might not be as convinced as
Mike when it comes to bore size and shape, but I am with other elements.

Nice to have Mike agree with me - now if I could figure out how to do that
little lick he does in Lassus - nah, that's impossible, nobody can play
that.

Parade tomorrow, supposed to be miserably cold, just glad I'm not a clarinet
and can wear gloves.  Took three days of marching in place during practice
but I'm finally starting to not bounce all over the place.  Now if I can
just watch out for the horse, um, flop.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Feb 2003 13:21:18 -0000
From:    Adrian Drover <slide.rule@ADIOS.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: mouthpiece mass

From: <richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL>

> Parade tomorrow, supposed to be miserably cold, just glad I'm not a
clarinet
> and can wear gloves.


Have you got the new mp tone enhancer with heated element?  Keeps your chops
warm.

A.

Adrian Drover
ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk
Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:35:29 -0800
From:    Gabriel Langfur <glangfur@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: choices & mouthpiece mass

--- richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL wrote:
> But he says basically the equipment isn't as important as
> the person, even
> past some large differences like mouthpiece and bore
> size.  Or, I would say
> the reverse, the person makes much more difference than
> the equipment.  You
> see, all of my theories on feedback ultimately depend on
> the differences in
> sound being caused by the player's brain and not the
> chunk of brass we're
> holding.  That sounds a little extreme, and I might not
> be as convinced as
> Mike when it comes to bore size and shape, but I am with
> other elements.

However, players can decide to do the opposite of what Mike
describes. I can play different equipment, in order to help
me achieve a different sound than what my everyday
instrument gives me. That's what Sam talks about all the
time in his posts about doubling. The choice of instrument
makes it easier for him to make the sound appropriate to
the occasion and the repertoire.



=====
Gabe Langfur
Boston, MA

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:06:44 -0500
From:    Chris Dearth <mr.dearthian@VERIZON.NET>
Subject: Anybody have one of these...

Does anybody have a Black Hill 5G (large shank) they'd be willing to part
with that has a rim that is not chewed up?  I've got one a friend of mine
gave me awhile back.  I like the mouthpiece, but it was not well taken care
of (I can't complain too much since he gave it to me) and the rim is
somewhat scratched up.  I'd replate it, but that wouldn't take care of the
nicks and scratches in the rim surface.

If anybody does and is interested, email me off list.

Chris Dearth

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:30:06 -0600
From:    "D.J. Kennedy" <djpens@MIDWEST.NET>
Subject: howard patty ///please

begging the perpetual indulgences of the t listers
---howard patty  -my return e mail messages to you
 regarding trombone   3b   valve attachments  are inoperable //
elvis  like  -----------------
 return to sender   ah eee ah aaaaaa oooooooo 3x
---------
also anybody  touring italy?????

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:24:23 -0400
From:    sabutin <sabutin@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: choices & mouthpiece mass

    I must say that in my experience I have found almost the exact
opposite of what Mike has found.

    Every alteration of equipment changes my whole approach and sound.
he mentions having to use a 36 as a bass, I believe? (Sorry, I
haven't been following this thread all that closely...too busy w/the
website and work.)

    i was caught in exactly the same circumstance for quite a few
performances w/the Smithsonian band once. Told that I should "bring a
tenor w/an F attachment because there will be a few trigger notes" I
brought a 36 w/a trigger and a slightly bored out 6 1/2AL and found
that fully 1/2 the pieces were real bass trombone parts.

    Gulp!!!

    I played the parts; most of the notes came out, and unless you
really knew the idiom you might not have noticed any difference...but
it was there, for a whole week.

  Now I'm not the bass player Mike is, but I have had the same thing
happen on tenor as well. It's not that I can't get the
notes...they're just not quite right on the wrong equipment.

    Not for me...

    Maybe I'm too adjustable; maybe I'm just too critical...whatever,
for me it is paramount to get the right axe for the job, and the
right m'pce for that axe as well.

    Different strokes...

    S.



>--- richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL wrote:
>>  But he says basically the equipment isn't as important as
>>  the person, even
>>  past some large differences like mouthpiece and bore
>>  size.  Or, I would say
>>  the reverse, the person makes much more difference than
>>  the equipment.  You
>>  see, all of my theories on feedback ultimately depend on
>>  the differences in
>>  sound being caused by the player's brain and not the
>>  chunk of brass we're
>>  holding.  That sounds a little extreme, and I might not
>>  be as convinced as
>>  Mike when it comes to bore size and shape, but I am with
>>  other elements.
>
>However, players can decide to do the opposite of what Mike
>describes. I can play different equipment, in order to help
>me achieve a different sound than what my everyday
>instrument gives me. That's what Sam talks about all the
>time in his posts about doubling. The choice of instrument
>makes it easier for him to make the sound appropriate to
>the occasion and the repertoire.
>
>
>
>=====
>Gabe Langfur
>Boston, MA
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
>http://taxes.yahoo.com/


--
(Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of
"The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in
NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments
and accessories. Visit us on the web at <http://samburtis.com> and/or
<http://thetrombonestore.com>, email us at <sabutin@mindspring.com>,
or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by
appointment only.)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Feb 2003 13:34:00 EST
From:    MikeSuter@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: mouthpiece mass

Writes my friend Adrian:

<< Have you got the new mp tone enhancer with heated element?  Keeps your
chops

warm. >>

And it only costs 39 cents. The real problem is affording the 4-mile-long
extension cord.

MS

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:56:05 -0600
From:    John Jenkins <jenkins_jj@ACADMN.MERCER.EDU>
Subject: Mouthpiece Wanted...

Hello all. Does anyone want to sell, or know someone who is selling a
mouthpiece with a 5G cup, and a 4G-ish rim? If so, please let me know. It
doesn't matter whether it is goldplated or silver. As long as it is in
"playable" condition. Thanx.

John J. Jenkins

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Feb 2003 19:11:12 -0000
From:    Adrian Drover <slide.rule@ADIOS.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: choices

From: "sabutin" <sabutin@MINDSPRING.COM>
To: <TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU>
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: [TBN-L] choices & mouthpiece mass


>     I must say that in my experience I have found almost the exact
> opposite of what Mike has found.

>     Maybe I'm too adjustable; maybe I'm just too critical...whatever,
> for me it is paramount to get the right axe for the job, and the
> right m'pce for that axe as well.


Seems like my experience is different from both Mike and Sam.  I can only
play one axe (or should I say trombone) on a gig, but then I don't spend a
lot of time practicing.  If I get called to play 3rd chair, I explain that
I'm only comfortable playing on my bass.  If the booker is agreeable, then
I'm happy to fill the position.  But whatever gig I'm doing, I'm always
conscious about maintaining the best balance I can with the rest of the
section, and for that matter, the rest of the band.

My axe is amazing.  It will play loud, soft, or anywhere in-between.  It
gets different timbres from using mutes.  It can fake doo-whas when the
arranger has written plunger markings on notes that can only be played with
the valve.  It plays with or without vib (slide or chops).  It can even
emulate a synthesizer (if that should ever be required) when I roll my
tongue around inside my mouth.  The only thing it won't do is play lead,
tho' I have once or twice played charts in which the 4th part had the
highest notes.  Never did discover why.

So why do I keep a tenor in the house?  Only because it has a nice valve
section which I enjoy tootling on now and again.  Need to use rather a big
mp on it.

A.

Adrian Drover
ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk
Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Feb 2003 19:14:50 -0000
From:    Adrian Drover <slide.rule@ADIOS.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: mouthpiece mass

From: <MikeSuter@aol.com>


> Writes my friend Adrian:
>
> << Have you got the new mp tone enhancer with heated element?  Keeps your
> chops warm. >>
>
> And it only costs 39 cents. The real problem is affording the 4-mile-long
> extension cord.


No Mike, I use the portable version.  Just need to strap a car battery on my
back.

A.

Adrian Drover
ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk
Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Feb 2003 15:17:57 EST
From:    MikeSuter@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Choices

Hi All,

I'm not so sure Gabe, Sam, and I are that far from each other in concept.

Gabe: << I can play different equipment, in order to help me achieve a
different sound than what my everyday instrument gives me. That's what Sam
talks about all the time in his posts about doubling. The choice of
instrument makes it easier for him to make the sound appropriate to the
occasion and the repertoire. >>


Sam << I must say that in my experience I have found almost the exact
opposite of what Mike has found.
Every alteration of equipment changes my whole approach and sound. He
mentions having to use a 36 as a bass, I believe? (Sorry, I haven't been
following this thread all that closely...too busy w/the website and work.) I
was caught in exactly the same circumstance for quite a few performances
w/the Smithsonian band once. Told that I should "bring a tenor w/an F
attachment because there will be a few trigger notes" I
brought a 36 w/a trigger and a slightly bored out 6 1/2AL and found that
fully 1/2 the pieces were real bass trombone parts . . . I played the parts;
most of the notes came out, and unless you really knew the idiom you might
not have noticed any difference...but it was there, for a whole week. Now I'm
not the bass player Mike is, but I have had the same thing happen on tenor as
well. It's not that I can't get the
notes...they're just not quite right on the wrong equipment . . . for me it
is paramount to get the right axe for the job, and the right m'pce for that
axe as well. >>

The pertinent phrase in Gabe's response was "my everyday instrument." As a
bass trombone player, my everyday instrument hasn't changed that much since I
got my first Holton bass trombone in 1963. In fact, I used that slide right
up until I lost the horn to medical bills in 1996.

There is a familiarity - a comfort zone - that comes with that kind of long
term association that makes it easier to play music; even when the "everyday
instrument" is no longer available. Since losing that original TR-169 I've
played an assortment of Holton bell sections with a couple of Holton slides
Larry Minick assembled for me. Last year I was able to regain parts of the
TR-169 I lost in 1996. These three are the only slides I've ever used in my
pro career.

And, yes, I vary my bell section to meet certain needs. My flare of choice is
a 9.5" yellow brass. I also have the original 9.5" alloy bell, and a 10"
alloy bell for when the conductor is an idiot.

As with Sam and Gabe, I prefer to alter my horn to suit the demands of the
music. But after 40 years (!!!) on the same slide set-up, it's very easy for
me to make any horn I play sound more like "Mike Suter" than a particular
mouthpiece/instrument combo would seem to dictate.

In Sam's response, it's his inclusion of the tenor trombone to the mix that's
the kicker. I have felt for years that, other than the slide, tenor and bass
trombone are two entirely dissimilar instruments. Mechanically and
intellectually they have little in common. That's why there are so few
excellent bass trombonists in comparison to excellent tenor trombonists. In
the main, most bass trombone players are taught by (bless their hearts and
efforts) tenor trombonists. It's just not the same. And most tenor trombone
teachers are not educationally equipped to properly and fully teach bass
trombone.

What I've just written is not an indictment. It's simply an observation based
on over 45 years of playing and teaching. In my experience, I've only had two
bass trombone students (out of 75 or so) that didn't require extensive
"unlearning" before we could get to the job at hand. Likewise, after the
first few basic lessons, I'm doing a tenor trombone student a huge disservice
if I don't pass them on to a tenor trombone teacher.

It's my honest opinion that switching between bass trombone, contrabass
trombone, and tuba is far easier than switching between tenor trombone,
symphonic trombone, and bass trombone. The situations Sam and other
successful doublers regularly encounter would kill me. In comparison, my bass
trombone, contrabass trombone, tuba trio is a breeze (except for the damn
cases).

So I will respectfully stand by my original statements. I want to reinforce,
though, that what I've said above has not been said to insult anyone. Nor
have I said anything for its "shock value." Like Sam says "different
strokes." And yet, we all get the job done.

I expect some of what I've said will engender some heartfelt responses.
That's this list at it's best. But please don't clutter this discussion with
posts that say in effect: "My teacher (Joe Blow from Kokomo) is great on both
tenor and bass trombones, and you're a fool." We all know there are some
great doublers out there - just not many. And as for me being a fool . . . my
wife tells me that three times a day 24/7/365.

All The Best,   Mike Suter
Slidewerke
PrimeSlide Design
The National Slide Quartet

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Feb 2003 19:58:13 -0500
From:    DSlide13@AOL.COM
Subject: <No subject given>

In a message dated 2/28/2003 6:08:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, mail@abcsbook.us writes:

>
>   Date:  2/28/2003 6:08:19 PM Eastern Standard Time
>   From:  "James Nee" <mail@abcsbook.us>
>   To:  <dslide13@aol.com>
>   Sent from the Internet (Details)
>
>
> Dear trombone player,
>
> I have a new study system I would like to share with you.
> If interested please respond.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> James Nee

If you're sending me spam after getting my address off of the trombone user group, I'm not into it.  You're invading my privacy.  Please refrain.

DG

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Feb 2003 20:07:12 -0600
From:    Listmonitor Trombone-L <listm@TROMBONE.ORG>
Subject: Re: James Nee/abcsbook.us web site

This individual has already been informed that either this spamming will
stop or his ISP and web site hosting firm will be notified.

Julian Haight's "Spamcop" service (http://www.spamcop.net) is an excellent
service for reporting unsolicited bulk e-mails.

LM


On 2/28/03 6:58 PM, "DSlide13@AOL.COM" <DSlide13@AOL.COM> wrote:

> In a message dated 2/28/2003 6:08:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> mail@abcsbook.us writes:
>
>>
>>   Date:  2/28/2003 6:08:19 PM Eastern Standard Time
>>   From:  "James Nee" <mail@abcsbook.us>
>>   To:  <dslide13@aol.com>
>>   Sent from the Internet (Details)
>>
>>
>> Dear trombone player,
>>
>> I have a new study system I would like to share with you.
>> If interested please respond.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> James Nee
>
> If you're sending me spam after getting my address off of the trombone user
> group, I'm not into it.  You're invading my privacy.  Please refrain.
>
> DG
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Feb 2003 20:21:51 -0600
From:    Corliss <rcorliss@MN.ASTOUND.NET>
Subject: Re: choices & mouthpiece mass

Some professionals may be able to sound however they want on whatever they
play but as an amateur who has to face an audience on a regular basis I
often ask myself two questions: On which equipment will I make the least
amount of mistakes and on which equipment will I sound the best. The answer
to those questions often lead to the recognition of different equipment.
One then has to make a compromise and find the proper balance. That makes
life interesting and a bit complicated because one's embouchure changes and
is itself in a state of development. That instrument I bought four months
ago really doesn't sound the same even though I am using the same
mouthpiece.

Richard Corliss

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gabriel Langfur" <glangfur@YAHOO.COM>
To: <TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU>
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [TBN-L] choices & mouthpiece mass


> --- richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL wrote:
> > But he says basically the equipment isn't as important as
> > the person, even
> > past some large differences like mouthpiece and bore
> > size.  Or, I would say
> > the reverse, the person makes much more difference than
> > the equipment.  You
> > see, all of my theories on feedback ultimately depend on
> > the differences in
> > sound being caused by the player's brain and not the
> > chunk of brass we're
> > holding.  That sounds a little extreme, and I might not
> > be as convinced as
> > Mike when it comes to bore size and shape, but I am with
> > other elements.
>
> However, players can decide to do the opposite of what Mike
> describes. I can play different equipment, in order to help
> me achieve a different sound than what my everyday
> instrument gives me. That's what Sam talks about all the
> time in his posts about doubling. The choice of instrument
> makes it easier for him to make the sound appropriate to
> the occasion and the repertoire.
>
>
>
> =====
> Gabe Langfur
> Boston, MA
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Feb 2003 20:43:56 -0600
From:    Listmonitor Trombone-L <listm@TROMBONE.ORG>
Subject: re. James Nee/abcsbook.us

If you have received unsolicited e-mails from this individual, please report
these messages to the following authorities:

1.  Internet Service Provider:
RCN.com - abuse@rcn.com

2.  Web Site Hosting Provider:
acmeinternet.com - support@acmeinternet.com

LM

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Feb 2003 18:29:00 -0800
From:    "Joe L. Norcross" <joetuba@LIGHTSPEED.NET>
Subject: Re: choices & mouthpiece mass

There is a difference about, Can I play Bass Bone on a 36B or Do I want to
play bass bone on a 36 B
I have in a pinch use a .525 bore bone on bass and I try to sound like a
bass bone.  I can do it but prefer to use my Holton bass.
I have also played lead with the bass bone, but would rather use my smaller
horn.
Clever use of a big mouthpiece in a small horn or vise versa can be used in
an emergency. Many have done it, but if asked would have used different
equipment.  But with hard work you can make a small horn sound like you on
bass or a bass sound  like a tenor.

Joe L. Norcross
Tuba: Visalia CA Sequoia Winds
Bass Trombone: Clovis CA Community Band
Tuba and Announcer: Kingsburg CA City Band
joetuba@lightspeed.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "Corliss" <rcorliss@MN.ASTOUND.NET>
To: <TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU>
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 6:21 PM
Subject: Re: [TBN-L] choices & mouthpiece mass


> Some professionals may be able to sound however they want on whatever they
> play but as an amateur who has to face an audience on a regular basis I
> often ask myself two questions: On which equipment will I make the least
> amount of mistakes and on which equipment will I sound the best. The
answer
> to those questions often lead to the recognition of different equipment.
> One then has to make a compromise and find the proper balance. That makes
> life interesting and a bit complicated because one's embouchure changes
and
> is itself in a state of development. That instrument I bought four months
> ago really doesn't sound the same even though I am using the same
> mouthpiece.
>
> Richard Corliss
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gabriel Langfur" <glangfur@YAHOO.COM>
> To: <TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU>
> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 10:35 AM
> Subject: Re: [TBN-L] choices & mouthpiece mass
>
>
> > --- richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL wrote:
> > > But he says basically the equipment isn't as important as
> > > the person, even
> > > past some large differences like mouthpiece and bore
> > > size.  Or, I would say
> > > the reverse, the person makes much more difference than
> > > the equipment.  You
> > > see, all of my theories on feedback ultimately depend on
> > > the differences in
> > > sound being caused by the player's brain and not the
> > > chunk of brass we're
> > > holding.  That sounds a little extreme, and I might not
> > > be as convinced as
> > > Mike when it comes to bore size and shape, but I am with
> > > other elements.
> >
> > However, players can decide to do the opposite of what Mike
> > describes. I can play different equipment, in order to help
> > me achieve a different sound than what my everyday
> > instrument gives me. That's what Sam talks about all the
> > time in his posts about doubling. The choice of instrument
> > makes it easier for him to make the sound appropriate to
> > the occasion and the repertoire.
> >
> >
> >
> > =====
> > Gabe Langfur
> > Boston, MA
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
> > http://taxes.yahoo.com/

------------------------------

End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 27 Feb 2003 to 28 Feb 2003 (#2003-59)
****************************************************************