Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 25 Feb 2003 to 26 Feb 2003 (#2003-57) Date: Thursday, February 27, 2003 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 20 messages totalling 740 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Broadway Shows (5) 2. facial hair (9) 3. Gigs (2) 4. Jazz Ambassadors concert and Master Class 5. Musicians Labor Union 6. Choices 7. oops, wrong info ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 07:08:51 -0600 From: E P LUKAS Subject: Broadway Shows Broadway shows started rehearsing this week with computer-generated music as they prepared for a possible strike by union musicians, whose contract expires on Sunday. As contract talks between producers and musicians grew increasingly tense, the Broadway producers said the synthesized digital music, for which the show's conductor sets the tempo, was a last resort they had been forced to consider. The two sides are at an impasse over the minimum number of musicians that shows are required to carry under their union agreement. The contract dictates how many players must be employed in each Broadway theater; the minimums are from 3 to 26, depending on the size of the house. Since 1993, the union has allowed some exceptions to the rules. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 07:47:11 -0600 From: Jay Heltzer Subject: Re: facial hair I guess you could say this is another "equipment issue" with a predictable "equipment answer". If it works for you, great. For the record: I had a soul patch for a while ( a la Dave Taylor) to cover nagging razor burn on the lower lip, then eventually went to full beard with the 'stache. I noticed no difference in my playing, and dug the look, so it stayed. Actually, I can now say that the mustaches might have hindered the Wozzeck 'zerp from the first Act from the Lyric list, the one with the pedal Eb, but not enough to shave. Then eventually I figured out how to play it furry. To keep it in trombone terms, I think its more of a Schilke 58 mustaches. Not too big, and not drawing lots of attention to itself. Jay ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 08:56:29 -0500 From: DSlide13@AOL.COM Subject: Re: facial hair In a message dated 2/25/2003 10:51:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, dyessjw@HAL.LAMAR.EDU writes: > This has been discussed on the list before. I shaved my moustache, > actually -- one that I had had for over 25 years! At first, it felt > pretty good -- especially in the low register. Then, I realized that > my mouthpiece was slipping and sliding and I didn't like the way that > felt. I grew mine back. I have a better "seal" with the darned > thing. Go figure. > > This is a personal thing, I suppose. But having a short > moustache > just works for me. > --Wayne Dyess I've noticed the opposite. My mouthpiece is sticking to my face now. Hmmmm... DG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:50:36 -0500 From: Chris Dearth Subject: Re: facial hair I had a goatee and mustache for about a year. The one oddity about my face is that nothing grows from my chin to my lower lip in the front. While I had it, I didn't notice any difference. When I was preparing for Milwaukee I shaved it and have never went back. My centering in the high end greatly improved. I didn't notice any sliding around. If anything, it stayed in place better. I didn't notice a major difference while playing 2nd (most of the playing I do is 2nd), but did while playing 1st. Chris Dearth ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 07:03:18 -0800 From: The Snead Family Subject: Re: facial hair I've had a full beard for many, many years. Started playing trombone again about 6 years or so ago and didn't even think about the facial hair thing until last fall. For Christmas my kids gave me a Norelco shaver, the one with the circular blades. I now keep most of my mustache hair fairly long but use the shaver to keep the hair just above the upper lip and just below the lower lip shaved. It's made a world of difference in my playing, and I still look great too! Bob Snead Bass trombone Sammamish, WA. -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of DSlide13@AOL.COM Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 10:04 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] facial hair Anyone here have any thoughts on playing with a moustache? I've had a moustache consistently for the last 10 years. Not only does it cover up my 'ring', but it seems to allow me to make minor shift adjustments without too much trouble. Yesterday, I shave my moustache and when I played it felt great. I imagine the feeling will even out soon. I liken the euphoric state that I experienced to trying a new mouthpiece. At first, it feels so much better, but eventually you find that the same problems exist. I'll probably keep shaving for a while and see what happens. I hope my 'ring' doesn't gross anyone out. Time will tell. BTW, the gig scene is so slow for me right now, that this is all I have to add to the discussion. To keep me from posting things like this (or worse) in the future, give me a gig. Peace, David Gibson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:26:40 -0600 From: Todd Slothower Subject: Re: facial hair Personally, I don't like the feel with a full 'stash. The whiskers irritate my lip where they get under the mouthpiece. I keep mine trimmed short and away from my mouthpiece contact area. I think that it looks fine, and still keeps my face warm in the winter. It really boils down to personal preference, though. Todd Slothower ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 10:58:45 -0500 From: "Paul D. Kemp Jr." Subject: Re: facial hair Facial hair has been discussed in the past, and I have my own story to tell as well. In 1985 I started taking lessons with Harry Maddox, and there was something really screwy with my sound. Harry was determined to get to the bottom of the problem, and as he investigated what i was doing, he asked the question, " Could it be your mustache?" We went in to his bathroom and we proceeded to trim away my mustache until it really looked utterly ridiculous, and when I got home, I went ahead and shaved the rest of it off. It did make a difference in my sound, and i am sensitive enough to it now that if i go 4-5 without shaving, the very short whiskers on my upper lip are enough to drive me crazy when I play. In 1995 I was doing some work with Larry Borden in Nashville, and we were talking one day, and this subject of the mustache came up, and I told him my story, and I guess that he thought that it was crazy enough that it might actually help him, so he shaved off a very thick mustache, and according to Larry, his lower register had much more resonance, and for once in his life he actually had a very dependable pedal register, and it was rather instantaneous as soon as he got rid of the mustache. The pedal register had always eluded him, and to this day he is still mustache free. Obviously, this is highly subjective area, where different stokes for different folks definitely apply. I know people who play great that are clean shaven and I know people who have very thick mustaches that sound great as well. It is definitely a highly individual thing. Paul Kemp Chattanooga Symphony www.trbnplyr.com --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.459 / Virus Database: 258 - Release Date: 2/25/2003 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 11:00:03 EST From: BITEensemble@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Broadway Shows In a message dated 2/26/2003 8:13:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, elukas@MIDSOUTH.RR.COM writes: > As contract talks between producers and musicians grew increasingly > tense, the Broadway producers said the synthesized digital music, for > which the show's conductor sets the tempo, was a last resort they had > been forced to consider. The two sides are at an impasse over the > minimum number of musicians that shows are required to carry under their > union agreement. The contract dictates how many players must be employed > in each Broadway theater; the minimums are from 3 to 26, depending on > the size of the house. Since 1993, the union has allowed some exceptions > to the rules. > I really think this is all COMPLETE BULL S&*T. Play what the composer wrote! Hire the people he/she wrote for and that is it. If they wrote for 5 synth players - hire 5 synth players. If they wrote for a string quartet - hire a string quartet. That should be the minimum - hire the players who are called for. It is completely absurd to suggest that you should have to hire X players becouse the house is this big or that small. Just like it is completely absurd to hire a synth player to duplicate a brass section - it cannot be done (yet) with any amount of accuracy OR musicality! This problem really started with the union - the moment they created these absurd limits, it became LABOR union nor a musicians union. I am sick of all this - if people want synth stuff - give it to them. Most of them will never know the difference anyway! Music is ever changing. Yes, history has its value, but it is US, the musicians, that can change as well. Music is not dead, it just reaches people in a different way now. -Wes Wesley Hopper Trombone, Triton Brass Quintet Adjunct Professor, Boston College 80.5 Kinnaird Street Cambridge, MA 02139 617.331.6438 (cell) 617.497.5246 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 11:05:39 -0500 From: Neal Schermerhorn Subject: Re: Gigs < How is work in your town so far this year? How was it last year? Any better now? I made my best year of musician income ever last year. This year, I've had I think 4 gigs so far. Here in MA, Jan/Feb is usually slow anyway, so no surprises there. The band's using this time to update the demo CD. We're well positioned to do well once spring hits. And we played New Year's Eve. We're booked for next one already. Plus, we're lined up to play two nights at Foxwoods in April. Anyone played at the B B King club at Foxwoods on a Fri/Sat? What are we getting into? How's the room - how's the backstage? Neal Schermerhorn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 10:12:46 -0600 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: Broadway Shows > > This problem really started with the union - the moment they created these > absurd limits, it became LABOR union nor a musicians union. > In 1993, the union, in essence, did away with the absurd limits. Look at the history of the AFM, it has always been a labor organization first and a musical organization second, if not farther down the list, behind fraternal organization in many places. Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:40:44 -0700 From: Dennis Clason Subject: Re: Broadway Shows > In a message dated 2/26/2003 8:13:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, > elukas@MIDSOUTH.RR.COM writes: > > > As contract talks between producers and musicians grew increasingly > > tense, the Broadway producers said the synthesized digital music, for > > which the show's conductor sets the tempo, was a last resort they had > > been forced to consider. The two sides are at an impasse over the > > minimum number of musicians that shows are required to carry under their > > union agreement. The contract dictates how many players must be employed > > in each Broadway theater; the minimums are from 3 to 26, depending on > > the size of the house. Since 1993, the union has allowed some exceptions > > to the rules. > > > > I really think this is all COMPLETE BULL S&*T. > > Play what the composer wrote! Hire the people he/she wrote for and that is > it. If they wrote for 5 synth players - hire 5 synth players. If > they wrote > for a string quartet - hire a string quartet. That should be the minimum - > hire the players who are called for. It is completely absurd to > suggest that > you should have to hire X players becouse the house is this big or that > small. Just like it is completely absurd to hire a synth player > to duplicate > a brass section - it cannot be done (yet) with any amount of accuracy OR > musicality! > > This problem really started with the union - the moment they created these > absurd limits, it became LABOR union nor a musicians union. Unions are good for some things, and not good for other things. Unions are good at negotiating contracts, and one of the things unions look to do is to preserve jobs. It's how they serve their membership. A union is not directly governed by profit/loss considerations at the businesses they have organized. Look at the behavior of the mechanics at United Air Lines -- and they DO own a large chunk of UAL, through the employees pension fund. The orchestras that were scored in the Golden Age were probably largely dictated by AFM agreements with the theaters. If you've got to pay them anyway, you might as well make use of them. As technologies change, jobs change. It's a fact of life, but unions historically have fought technology change tooth and nail. Unions are not good at coping with technological changes. Until the audiences understand (and many don't) that there IS a difference between live and memorex, producers are going to prefer to use tape/computer/cd/whatever-the-next-recording-medium will be. We don't help ourselves when folks like Joe Alessi come out to do recitals with Vivace's sophisticated band-in-a-box. Sure, it's good at staying with you, but if the Hindemith Sonata is an opportunity for trombonist and pianist to make love, then a performance with Vivace is masturbation. > I am sick of all this - if people want synth stuff - give it to > them. Most of > them will never know the difference anyway! Exactly. Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 10:52:23 -0600 From: Mearl Danner Subject: Jazz Ambassadors concert and Master Class For Birmingham (Alabama) area listers. The US Army Field Band Jazz Ambassadors will perform on the Samford University campus Sunday, March 2, 2003. I'll assume that fellow lister Jeff Adams will be playing. Samford is at 800 Lakeshore Drive, Birmingham, Alabama. The performance will be in the Wright Center Concert Hall at 2PM CST. All seating is general admission and tickets are FREE!! Campus contact is Brad Sargent at 205-726-4188 Also, four members of the band will be giving Master's classes on Monday May 3 from 9AM to 11AM. Trombonist Mike Buckley will do the trombone class. There will also be trumpet, sax and guitar classes. The sessions will start in the band rehearsal hall and then break out into different rooms for the various instruments. Same contact as for the concert. Especially for directions to the rehearsal hall. It's in the catacombs of the Wright Center. Mearl Danner Systems Programmer Samford University jmdanner@samford.edu www.samford.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 12:03:43 -0500 From: Harlan Feinstein Subject: Re: Gigs > How is work in your town so far this year? How was it last > year? Any better now? Admittedly, the pit orchestra niche that I work in mostly may not be very representative of the gigs this list is discussing, but here's my information anyway. I'm also in the Boston area, and I've been lucky to have a pretty heavy schedule (10 productions, each 1-4 weeks long) from late January through mid-May of this year. Probably 25% busier than last year, I'd guess. --Harlan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 12:59:59 -0600 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Re: Broadway Shows the ringling circus already has 3 synths --to replace what used to be a gig for musicin all over the country is that an oboe -nope --is that a bari sax ---nope is that a trombone -----i hope so !!!!!!!!!!! ----- actually the reed player would be happy to blow some oboe but of course the union has to protect guys who dont have jobs -----as far as technology goes railroads have tried to eliminate as many man hours as possible while management still pays exorbitant ''wages'' to those at the top of the pyramid scheme ----------- sw airlines changed everything but i still remember silverware and full meals in passenger class --------------------- unions protected coal miners garment workers and many many others from long hours unsafe working conditions exposure to hazardous materials as well as opening up jobs for nnnnnnnnnnnn negroes and other people ---irish and chinese -------- corporate heads and management still pay themselves ever increasing ''wages'' even if companies are not turning a profit the true owners -----the stock holders see their share representing invested time ever dwindle and workers are asked to make sacrifices --------------------- meanwhile the 580 series of mercedes limo ---over puffed pimpmobiles for the old boy yale ..harvard system the wheels turn ------------ and some would blame unions for the woes of synthesized music ------------ people brag about how much they like art then turn around and ''invest''in limited edition prints the farmers get little and the store gets a lot ---------- art such as elsworth[less] kelly this art is about politics and about deal making ---it is not about fine arts blank surfaces --empty plates ---emperors clothes ------------ a local restaurant owner told me his budget for music was 250 $$$$$$$$ ---- well in a college town that amount might pay for 2 bands !!!!!!!! the bars //clubs suck the $$$$$$$ right out of the collies pockets for booze xxxxxxxx and the explotative process becomes even more engrained so bands can get drunk and act up play naughty boyz and girls for the 10 apiece ------which in reality is more than the pros get in relation to the enormous cash flow generated by show biz the word profit is never used -somehow ''costs'' always seem to eat up the $$$$$$$$ and new bentley corniches ----------taks are topped off saddly even in beverly hills it is hard to find a ''real gas station attendant'' ----- and that is about as dirty as ones hands should ever get ------------- there is no union for what i do its a great risk ----a gamble --a long shot --- ------ thats a nice drawing ---how much ??? think of what an archival frame will do to preserve this --------------- music is of the moment -----the payment is for all the other things ------------ unions ---baseball football -----and prison guards prison guards make more $$$$ than teachers w masters degrees in the local schools --------------------- in union there is strength -------- one karoke christmas was enough for me -------this year over half the christmas program was singers with canned background ---- it sucked totally --------- and everybody thought piano accompianists were bad ---- disc clavier anyone ------ pull the plug on karoke christmas musicians unite joshua and the electric trumpet company playing taps for the last tree --------- Dennis Clason wrote: > > In a message dated 2/26/2003 8:13:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > elukas@MIDSOUTH.RR.COM writes: > > > > > As contract talks between producers and musicians grew increasingly > > > tense, the Broadway producers said the synthesized digital music, for > > > which the show's conductor sets the tempo, was a last resort they had > > > been forced to consider. The two sides are at an impasse over the > > > minimum number of musicians that shows are required to carry under their > > > union agreement. The contract dictates how many players must be employed > > > in each Broadway theater; the minimums are from 3 to 26, depending on > > > the size of the house. Since 1993, the union has allowed some exceptions > > > to the rules. > > > > > > > I really think this is all COMPLETE BULL S&*T. > > > > Play what the composer wrote! Hire the people he/she wrote for and that is > > it. If they wrote for 5 synth players - hire 5 synth players. If > > they wrote > > for a string quartet - hire a string quartet. That should be the minimum - > > hire the players who are called for. It is completely absurd to > > suggest that > > you should have to hire X players becouse the house is this big or that > > small. Just like it is completely absurd to hire a synth player > > to duplicate > > a brass section - it cannot be done (yet) with any amount of accuracy OR > > musicality! > > > > This problem really started with the union - the moment they created these > > absurd limits, it became LABOR union nor a musicians union. > > Unions are good for some things, and not good for other things. Unions are > good at negotiating contracts, and one of the things unions look to do is > to preserve jobs. It's how they serve their membership. > > A union is not directly governed by profit/loss considerations at the > businesses > they have organized. Look at the behavior of the mechanics at United Air > Lines > -- and they DO own a large chunk of UAL, through the employees pension fund. > The orchestras that were scored in the Golden Age were probably largely > dictated > by AFM agreements with the theaters. If you've got to pay them anyway, you > might as well make use of them. > > As technologies change, jobs change. It's a fact of life, but unions > historically > have fought technology change tooth and nail. Unions are not good at coping > with > technological changes. Until the audiences understand (and many don't) that > there IS a difference between live and memorex, producers are going to > prefer to use tape/computer/cd/whatever-the-next-recording-medium > will be. We don't help ourselves when folks like Joe Alessi come out to do > recitals with Vivace's sophisticated band-in-a-box. Sure, it's good at > staying > with you, but if the Hindemith Sonata is an opportunity for trombonist and > pianist to make love, then a performance with Vivace is masturbation. > > > I am sick of all this - if people want synth stuff - give it to > > them. Most of > > them will never know the difference anyway! > > Exactly. > > Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 12:55:43 EST From: Beldon Wade Subject: Re: Musicians Labor Union If I remember correctly they were AFofL under Julius Caesar Petrillo. beldon wade ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 14:04:40 EST From: MikeSuter@AOL.COM Subject: Choices In regard to the various mouthpiece threads lately: Technically the design of a mouthpiece can be skewed to assist the player in many ways: lower or higher; spread or compact; louder or softer; darker or brighter; slow or quick; etc. But while being played, no mouthpiece can create a note, or pitch, or tone quality, or color. Those are dictated, and ruled, by the player's "mind's ear." Or to be less ethereal; Ultimately you're going to create the sound you hear in your head. If I were forced to play on, say, a symphonic tenor trombone with "F" attachment and a generic 12C mouthpiece, in time I would sound just as I do today on my double rotor in-line bass trombone and my PrimeSlide Design A3 mouthpiece. What I'm implying is that you or I don't choose our equipment for any reason other than the confidence it inspires within us. The equipment that inspires that confidence is the equipment we choose. And that confidence isn't just mechanical. It can also be visual, peer, or historical in nature. Am I downplaying what any of you have contributed to this thread over the past week or so? No. I'm just saying that the "mine is better" aspect of any equipment argument is kind of pointless. But that doesn't mean it should stop. I'm learning a lot. I'm fascinated by the hundreds (thousands?) of equipment combinations we choose in order to meet our rather narrow range of goals. I mean, really, we have solos, ensembles, and large groups, in basically two idioms: jazz and classical (please don't play lexological games here. I'm simply condensing diversity to a common denominator) And we all manage to do it somehow. That's really cool. Truly. As the babe in the cell phone commercial says " . . . continue." All The Best, Mike Suter Slidewerke PrimeSlide Design National Slide Quartet ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 16:02:12 -0500 From: Cooper Funeral Home Subject: oops, wrong info Hello All: It has come to my attention that my posting that started out = as a reply to the Wick Tone Enhancer suggesting people head on over to = the Salvation Army to avoid (legally) paying sales tax on certain items = was in error. The Salvation Army does indeed have to charge GST, as = told to me by 2 sources, both of whom are on this list (thanks J and L). While I would encourage you to shop at the Salvation Army Trade = department in your area, it can now only be suggested by me that you do = so to support the Army and its good work. My apologies to those who this affected. Sincerely, Ian Cooper ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 21:29:20 -0000 From: Dave Imray Subject: Re: facial hair First gig I ever did at about 12 or 13 years old was with the local Brass Band playing at a re-creation of an old style Music Hall type concert. The make up department glued Edwardian style beards and moustaches made out of loose strands of horse hair or something on anybody who wanted one, including us kids. After about the 2nd number the glue used to stick them on started going soft ! result, moustaches sliding right across lips and down the mouthpiece. Didn't do much for the tone but certainly gave us all a good laugh ! Dave. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 18:43:35 -0500 From: DSlide13@AOL.COM Subject: Re: facial hair In a message dated 2/26/2003 10:58:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, trbnplyr@COMCAST.NET writes: > In 1985 I started taking lessons with Harry Maddox, and there was something really screwy with my sound. Harry was determined to get to the bottom of the problem, and as he investigated what i was doing, he asked the question, " Could it be your mustache?" We went in to his bathroom and we proceeded to trim away my mustache until it really looked utterly ridiculous, and when I got home, I went ahead and shaved the rest of it off. It did make a difference in my sound, and i am sensitive enough to it now that if i go 4-5 without shaving, the very short whiskers on my upper lip are enough to drive me > crazy when I play. I definitely notice the problem during the "growing stage", but I never had issues with playing with a moustache. I kept it fairly short...a 1 1/2 setting on my clippers...but I didn't do any special trimming around my mouthpiece. I did, however, trim the top of it below my nose. Maybe that made a difference. I'm starting to get used to the clean shaven feel. I did a recording session this morning, then played all afternoon with my students. We'll see how it feels at my gig tonight. Basically, I think the extreme transition has been weird, but I don't think I have a big preference either way. I like different things about both ways. Thanks for the feedback. I know I'm not crazy now. Or...maybe I know that I'm not alone in my craziness. Peace, David Gibson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 20:07:07 -0600 From: "Richard Z. Johnson" Subject: Re: facial hair I've played with a mustache for 4-5 years now and haven't noticed any problems. ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 25 Feb 2003 to 26 Feb 2003 (#2003-57) ****************************************************************