Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 21 Feb 2003 to 22 Feb 2003 (#2003-53) Date: Sunday, February 23, 2003 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 16 messages totalling 662 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer Question (7) 2. Trombone-L Guidelines and Update 3. Instrumental Expo (2) 4. Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer Quest---- 5. Mouthpiece Suggestions for G Bass (4) 6. Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 00:10:50 -0800 From: Len Stephan Subject: Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer Question Why does adding mass to the mouthpiece affect tone? Len Stephan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 08:48:35 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: Trombone-L Guidelines and Update From: "Listmonitor Trombone-L" > Over the past few days, I have received several e-mails from list members > concerned about trombone-l subscriber e-mail addresses being culled for the > purpose of spamming. Can't complain LM. I get most of my Nigerian $$$$billions thru' my Trom-L mail box. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 08:56:01 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer Question From: "Len Stephan" > Why does adding mass to the mouthpiece affect tone? Dunno, but I've had my whole trombone encased in steel reinforced concrete. Sounds great, but having problems moving the slide. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 08:27:11 -0600 From: "Richard Z. Johnson" Subject: Re: Instrumental Expo I just went to the site. It's only three hours away. I may just go to it. How much playing do you get a chance to do? -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Dean McCarty Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 11:49 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Instrumental Expo I went to the one in Dallas last year. Definitely a great experience. Check out the website and go if it appeals to you. You won't be disappointed. I am going again next weekend! Dean McCarty freelance trombonist, Houston area ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 07:07:01 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer Question --- Len Stephan wrote: > Why does adding mass to the mouthpiece affect tone? Here's a big can o' worms... Adding mass anywhere on the instrument affects tone (and other aspects of the system, including articulations and the relationship of dynamic to tone color), and people can argue about why until it gets ugly and has to be taken outside. The most convincing explanation I've heard is that a change in the mass of the instrument changes the feedback the player gets. The initial vibration at the lips, or buzz, doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's part of the entire playing system and is affected by other parts. The mouthpiece has a particularly dramatic effect on the nature of the buzz, and therefore any type of change to the mouthpiece usually has a substantial and noticeable effect on tone and playing characteristics. There, my 2 cents. Let the games begin! ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 10:37:02 -0500 From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" Subject: Re: Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer Question On Sat, 22 Feb 2003, Adrian Drover wrote: > Dunno, but I've had my whole trombone encased in steel reinforced concrete. > Sounds great, but having problems moving the slide. Walter F. Smith discovered back in the '20's that encasing an Army regulation bugle in a block of plaster did not affect its tone. Carole Nowicke cnowicke@indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 11:40:34 -0600 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer Quest---- yeah and lucite rims those blocky all lucite ---mpcs --sarad mpcs old time very lightweight mpcs each one a marvel ---no disappointments !!!!!!!! guaranteed performance enhancer ------ miracle in every one !!!!!!!!! i can hear the difference ---feel the difference its like a whole new horn -a fresh beginning in fact i have some miracle cleansing fluid you mist you horn with and baptise the slide mouthpiece tone enhancer ---of course it works and i put my mpcs in the lathe and turn off as much metal as possible ---for that old time flavor and statusfaction bountiful buffet of beauties gleaming metallic objects ----are they truly the source of all ???? hearing the rumble in the skies ---- perhaps they only suggest perfection --which on the physical plane is impossible from brass into gold the transformation complete when this mortal coil we fly from attempting to please some sort of judge ----before this in action or inaction bliss comes to those who see and know from inside the tone all seek is the voice that says -- i love you Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science wrote: > On Sat, 22 Feb 2003, Adrian Drover wrote: > > > Dunno, but I've had my whole trombone encased in steel reinforced concrete. > > Sounds great, but having problems moving the slide. > > Walter F. Smith discovered back in the '20's that encasing an Army > regulation bugle in a block of plaster did not affect its tone. > > Carole Nowicke > cnowicke@indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 10:42:48 -0600 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer Question > The most convincing explanation I've heard is that a change > in the mass of the instrument changes the feedback the > player gets. The initial vibration at the lips, or buzz, > doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's part of the entire playing > system and is affected by other parts. The mouthpiece has a > particularly dramatic effect on the nature of the buzz, and > therefore any type of change to the mouthpiece usually has > a substantial and noticeable effect on tone and playing > characteristics. That's interesting and makes sense. I have heard another explanation that also seemed to work logically for me. It is based somewhat on a conservation of energy concept. When we play the trombone we transfer energy into the system. This energy does at least two things: it makes sound, and it vibrates the brass of the instrument and mouthpiece. When you play, you can place your hand on the bell (or any other part of your trombone) and feel it vibrate. When you add mass anywhere in the system, it dampens those vibrations, but since there is the same amount of energy being transferred into the system the energy that was vibrating the metal is now becoming sound. Maybe just another way to say the same thing... Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 11:46:38 -0500 From: "Robert E. Brown" Subject: Mouthpiece Suggestions for G Bass --=======44462EE6======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-7A35346; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I recently acquired a G bass without mouthpiece. One suggestion has been to take a 1-1/2 G or similar and have the shank turned down to fit the smaller receiver. Any other thoughts, particularly from those with experience in playing this beastie? Robert E. Brown --=======44462EE6=======-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 11:50:40 -0600 From: Dean McCarty Subject: Re: Instrumental Expo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Z. Johnson" > I just went to the site. It's only three hours away. I may just go to > it. How much playing do you get a chance to do? The Instrumental Expo offers quite a bit of playing opportunities. The first night there is about 3 hours of playing in a mass orchestra or if you'd like to read in a praise band session led by Rich Kingsmore (past pianist with Truth). On Saturday there are four opportunities for playing. The mass orchestra (which is really cool... nothing like playing in an orchestra with 60 trombones in it), praise band, big band, and master classes. It's definitely worth the trip. I'm about 5 hours from Dallas, but it's worth the drive. Dean McCarty freelance trombonist, Houston area ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 18:41:05 -0000 From: Edward Solomon Subject: Re: Mouthpiece Suggestions for G Bass Depends entirely on the model of G bass trombone you have. If it's one of the more recent ones, like the B&H Imperial, then you can get away with grinding down the shank of a modern bass trombone mouthpiece to fit. I did that to a Denis Wick 2AL. Works very well. If you have an older G bass trombone, you may find that you can't find a deep enough mouthpiece to grind down as all the small modern mouthpieces are designed for small bore alto or tenor trombones. __________________________________________ Edward Solomon British Trombone Society Webmaster mailto:webmaster@trombone-society.org.uk Visit "The Trombonist Online" - the online magazine of the British Trombone Society http://www.trombone-society.org.uk __________________________________________ -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Robert E. Brown Sent: 22 February 2003 16:47 To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Mouthpiece Suggestions for G Bass I recently acquired a G bass without mouthpiece. One suggestion has been to take a 1-1/2 G or similar and have the shank turned down to fit the smaller receiver. Any other thoughts, particularly from those with experience in playing this beastie? Robert E. Brown ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 12:30:52 -0800 From: Chris Tune Subject: Re: Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer Question I've been thinking about this for a long, long time. To me, it doesn't make sense that the tone (i.e. the middle of the sound, after the attack and before the release) qualities of various combinations of trombones and mouthpieces, and even players would vary that much from instance to instance. I'd play devil's advocate and propose that perhaps the only significantly varying elements (for advanced players where very poor tone quality is not a problem and at moderate loudness) are: Attack Release Pitch variations (e.g. flat, sharp and vibrato or other varying pitch change) I'd love to see an experiment where large numbers of trombonists are recorded in an anechoic chamber with widely varying equipment combos and then the middle is sampled and analyzed using fourier analysis (of course the same distance, angle and microphone would be used on all). If my hypothesis is right, there is very little profound difference in continuous tone, other than by those who have a very poor approach (i.e. are still beginners). Maybe I'm wrong, but right now, I doubt it. The reason I think this is this: Once we have started the process of buzzing and making the air column move in harmonic motion we are really only adding back to the vibrating air column what energy was lost in recent vibration. The process is really governed mostly by the length and shape of the air column (conical is very different from cylindrical bore, etc.) and perhaps to some degree by the width of the cylindrical column (although I tend to think this mainly governs how loud a sound you can get without getting additional edginess). You could think of this as similar to a pendulum clock where the energy lost on each swing is brought back by the counter weight system and gear. When we stop adding back any energy and stop blowing the vibrating column dies very quickly. The lip is the "triggering" or originating sound source but I would assume, since I've experienced playing with swollen lips, crusty heavily chapped lips, etc. (didn't really change my sound) that "flesh is, by and large, flesh". We know that beginners can do all sorts of damage to the sound, but that is mostly due to obstructing the natural course of the vibrating air. This is, in essence, what Kleinhammer said in "The Art of Trombone Playing". I am referring to a situation where there is no significant obstruction. Remember much of our subjective impression comes from the music content itself and much also is changed or added by the large hall of a symphony orchestra, the small room of a jazz club or the generally dead environment of a practice room. Recordings of orchestras really are heavily influenced by each individual concert hall used for the recording. Recordings of commercial artists are subject to alteration by choice of mic and by use of filters (e.g. a parametric EQ). Just my $0.02 Chris Tune ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Albert" To: Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer Question > > The most convincing explanation I've heard is that a change > > in the mass of the instrument changes the feedback the > > player gets. The initial vibration at the lips, or buzz, > > doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's part of the entire playing > > system and is affected by other parts. The mouthpiece has a > > particularly dramatic effect on the nature of the buzz, and > > therefore any type of change to the mouthpiece usually has > > a substantial and noticeable effect on tone and playing > > characteristics. > > That's interesting and makes sense. I have heard another explanation > that also seemed to work logically for me. It is based somewhat on a > conservation of energy concept. When we play the trombone we transfer > energy into the system. This energy does at least two things: it makes > sound, and it vibrates the brass of the instrument and mouthpiece. When > you play, you can place your hand on the bell (or any other part of your > trombone) and feel it vibrate. When you add mass anywhere in the > system, it dampens those vibrations, but since there is the same amount > of energy being transferred into the system the energy that was > vibrating the metal is now becoming sound. Maybe just another way to > say the same thing... > > Jeff Albert > > www.jeffalbert.com > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 17:46:01 -0500 From: Bruce Guttman Subject: Mouthpiece Suggestions for G Bass I asked the same question of Doug Yeo and he suggested I use something in the 4 or 6 cup range (Bach/Wick numbers). The bore of a G-Bass is not much more than a medium tenor and using a bass sized mouthpiece is a bad match. Also not historically accurate. The shank is similar to the "European" Euphonium. I managed to find a Denis Wick 4AY mouthpiece, which seems to fill the bill. My G-Bass is a Whaley-Royce, but probably a stencil of either Besson or Holton based on the bracework. Watch out about cutting the shank of a true bass trombone mouthpiece; you may not have much shank left after you turn it for the G-Bass taper! Just my 2-cents. Bruce Guttman Solo trombone, Hollis Town Band Section Leader, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 16:10:53 -0700 From: James Scott Subject: Re: Mouthpiece Suggestions for G Bass One other option is to try some Doug Elliott parts - I'm sure he can make a shank to fit, and you can experiment with different cups and rims to find a balance between your comfort, and what will fit the bore of the horn. I would guess that you wouldn't want much deeper than his "G" or "H" cup, but he can supply that with a larger rim if you want, to be closer to whatever you play on regular bass trombone. Jim Scott > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 21:22:45 -0600 From: Corliss Subject: Re: Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer Question In post you include what Gabrial and Jeff have said but then do not take it into considertion in your comment. The metal instrument vibrates and sound comes from that. The nature of the metal - sterling silver and the various kinds of brass - affects the sound as well as the mass of the instrument. In the heavy mouthpieces and in the enhancers and their substitutes mass is added at a very important place - at the beginning. How we play is affected by the feedback from the instument we are playing and the mass of the heavy mouthpieces and of the enhancers and their substutes give us different feedbacks and thus affect how we play and how we sound. I think that the kind of affect enhancers have have been well described. What I expect to be the case is that the very same enhancer will have a different affect on a very light instrument that has a small mass as opposed to a very heavy instrument with a very heavy mass, and, also, enhancers and their substitutes with differenct amounts of mass will have different effects on the same instrument. If this is true, then one would expect that there would be more interest in checking out one's local hardware for various nuts or one's local golf pro shop to find out the kind of mass that works best for one's interests. I would like to know whether there is any real difference whether the mass is added to the mouthpiece itself or to the shaft of the mouthpiece as the enhancers do. Recently going through my mouthpieces I found a very early New York 15c. I expected it to be very bright but it wasn't at all. I then realized that it was a very heavy mouthpiece. The heavy mouthpieces go back to the very early days of Bach. Richard Corliss ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Tune" To: Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer Question > I've been thinking about this for a long, long time. To me, it doesn't make > sense that the tone (i.e. the middle of the sound, after the attack and > before the release) qualities of various combinations of trombones and > mouthpieces, and even players would vary that much from instance to > instance. I'd play devil's advocate and propose that perhaps the only > significantly varying elements (for advanced players where very poor tone > quality is not a problem and at moderate loudness) are: > > Attack > Release > Pitch variations (e.g. flat, sharp and vibrato or other varying pitch > change) > > I'd love to see an experiment where large numbers of trombonists are > recorded in an anechoic chamber with widely varying equipment combos and > then the middle is sampled and analyzed using fourier analysis (of course > the same distance, angle and microphone would be used on all). If my > hypothesis is right, there is very little profound difference in continuous > tone, other than by those who have a very poor approach (i.e. are still > beginners). Maybe I'm wrong, but right now, I doubt it. > > The reason I think this is this: > > Once we have started the process of buzzing and making the air column move > in harmonic motion we are really only adding back to the vibrating air > column what energy was lost in recent vibration. The process is really > governed mostly by the length and shape of the air column (conical is very > different from cylindrical bore, etc.) and perhaps to some degree by the > width of the cylindrical column (although I tend to think this mainly > governs how loud a sound you can get without getting additional edginess). > You could think of this as similar to a pendulum clock where the energy lost > on each swing is brought back by the counter weight system and gear. When > we stop adding back any energy and stop blowing the vibrating column dies > very quickly. > > The lip is the "triggering" or originating sound source but I would assume, > since I've experienced playing with swollen lips, crusty heavily chapped > lips, etc. (didn't really change my sound) that "flesh is, by and large, > flesh". We know that beginners can do all sorts of damage to the sound, but > that is mostly due to obstructing the natural course of the vibrating air. > This is, in essence, what Kleinhammer said in "The Art of Trombone Playing". > I am referring to a situation where there is no significant obstruction. > > Remember much of our subjective impression comes from the music content > itself and much also is changed or added by the large hall of a symphony > orchestra, the small room of a jazz club or the generally dead environment > of a practice room. Recordings of orchestras really are heavily influenced > by each individual concert hall used for the recording. Recordings of > commercial artists are subject to alteration by choice of mic and by use of > filters (e.g. a parametric EQ). > > Just my $0.02 > > Chris Tune > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeff Albert" > To: > Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 8:42 AM > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer Question > > > > > The most convincing explanation I've heard is that a change > > > in the mass of the instrument changes the feedback the > > > player gets. The initial vibration at the lips, or buzz, > > > doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's part of the entire playing > > > system and is affected by other parts. The mouthpiece has a > > > particularly dramatic effect on the nature of the buzz, and > > > therefore any type of change to the mouthpiece usually has > > > a substantial and noticeable effect on tone and playing > > > characteristics. > > > > That's interesting and makes sense. I have heard another explanation > > that also seemed to work logically for me. It is based somewhat on a > > conservation of energy concept. When we play the trombone we transfer > > energy into the system. This energy does at least two things: it makes > > sound, and it vibrates the brass of the instrument and mouthpiece. When > > you play, you can place your hand on the bell (or any other part of your > > trombone) and feel it vibrate. When you add mass anywhere in the > > system, it dampens those vibrations, but since there is the same amount > > of energy being transferred into the system the energy that was > > vibrating the metal is now becoming sound. Maybe just another way to > > say the same thing... > > > > Jeff Albert > > > > www.jeffalbert.com > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 22:49:42 -0500 From: Cooper Funeral Home Subject: Re: Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer If you are looking for items that have sales tax on them, you might want to try the Salvation Army Supplies and purchasing department in your area. I am not positive of the rules in the U.S.A. or U.K. but in Canada, because they are a registered charity, I don't believe that they are required to (or maybe allowed to) charge sales tax. This could be a significant savings if you are looking at an instrument purchase. Contact the Salvation Army in your area and they will tell you the rules and if they can save you this amount of money. I do know that the Toronto bookstore has/can get the Wick boosters. ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 21 Feb 2003 to 22 Feb 2003 (#2003-53) ****************************************************************