Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 18 Feb 2003 to 19 Feb 2003 (#2003-50) Date: Thursday, February 20, 2003 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 46 messages totalling 2062 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Phil Teele Long Tone Book (2) 2. NYT Norrington Vibrato Article (5) 3. single valve bass (9) 4. Duke Ellington lead trombone? (4) 5. DER ROSENKAVALIER 6. King 3B parts location (3) 7. Lacquer Questions 8. Alan Kaplan clinic 9. New SCHMELZER website (3) 10. Attention AOL Users - Trombone-L Issues 11. Beginner trombone quartet music (4) 12. Vibrato and Historical Performance 13. Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer (6) 14. Fw: [TBN-L] Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer 15. interesting 16. single valve bass/Eb slide 17. JSO situation 18. edwards tenor trombone leadpipes for sale - cheap ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 22:59:52 -0800 From: John & Mary Subject: Phil Teele Long Tone Book I just got Phil Teele's Long Tone book and I'm asking for advice about how to modify these studies for a straight tenor trombone. Thanks, John Boblett ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 08:49:51 +0100 From: =?US-ASCII?B?U29yZW4gQm9nbw==?= Subject: Re: NYT Norrington Vibrato Article - interesting; for anyone wishing to read - here is the link: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/16/arts/music/16NORR.html Soren Bogoe Bb-Bass, FDF Gladsaxe Brass Band mailto:sb@sbconsult.net -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Randy Campora Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 4:28 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] NYT Norrington Vibrato Article Here are the first four paragraphs of an article by Roger Norrington from the 2/16/03 edition of the New York Times. ..................................................... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 05:13:31 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: NYT Norrington Vibrato Article Fascinating. I didn't realize it was that late that vibrato came into fashion. The topic has always interested me, if only a little, because of the strange ways thinking about vibrato changes from instrument to instrument. Classical clarinet players are taught to NEVER play with vibrato, an orthodoxy that's just starting to change. My wife is the only flutist I know who might play with straight tone more often than vibrato (Randy, she was a student of Mark Sparks at Peabody), and she has particular scorn for the flutists with "autovibrato," which often seems to be the norm - a vibrato that has nothing to do with expressiveness and everything to do with habit. And as trombonists, we've certainly got our own issues: friends of mine who've been major symphony audition finalists have gotten the distinct impression that they were finaly eliminated because a little bit of vibrato crept into Tannhauser or some such Wagner excerpt. Silly, really... The ways modern instruments have evolved, however, often seem to require vibrato to keep the sound from being harsh. Gut strings sound beautiful played with a light bow stroke and without vibrato; metal strings don't sound as beautiful that way and really benefit from the warmth and shimmer that vibrato gives. Modern flutes also have a sort of "harder" sound than their wooden predecessors when played without vibrato. Unless the flutist has a REALLY great sound to begin with :) and, of course, a really !@#$ing expensive flute! Ouch, my wallet! Modern double reeds, too - the older ones just don't make as much sound, so they're not as harsh as a modern oboe or bassoon when played straight. So I think it's not as simple as Roger Norrington lays it out in this article. The musical arms race we've talked about that has us playing such huge equipment is a big feedback loop with input from all sides. Maybe eliminating continuous vibrato from the string sections would be a significant step, but boy would it be hard to do! By the way, did anyone else notice that Roger Norrington gets the byline but Vladimir Ashkenazy gets the bio at the end? What's that about? ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 05:18:42 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Phil Teele Long Tone Book --- John & Mary wrote: > I just got Phil Teele's Long Tone book > and I'm asking for advice about how > to modify these studies for a straight > tenor trombone. Thanks, John Boblett John, First, buy another book - Paul Kemp's (on this list) self-published book for tenor trombone, based on the Teele studies. Paul adapts them for tenor and does a lot more explaining than Phil. I like the balance of Phil's understated directions and Paul's more verbose version. Then, talk to Paul. He has his serious students do long tones in this fashion, and I'm sure some of them play straight tenors. Finally, call Phil Teele and ask him directly. He's a very nice guy, happy to give advice on the phone. His home number is in the jacket of his CD "Low & Outside." The CD is worth listening to, also... ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 05:57:39 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: single valve bass Hey there everyone, I just got a single valve section for my Shires bass (this is part of a bigger idea I'll talk about later when I figure it out more), and I have a question for people who've spent a significant amount of time playing on a single valve. Doug, are you out there? A child of the 80s myself, I've only ever owned one other single valve bass, which I used as a backup and marching horn (I had no choice...had to march...yuck). I sold it years ago. I love the way this feels, and since I am primarily an orchestra player, I can choose to play this setup often. This is the rotary valve Steve Shires is making now, which is no longer based on the Greenhoe valve. It's lighter & more centered than my thayer valves, but still a good, open, free sound. I've also tried a dependent set of these valves, which plays a lot like the excellent valves on the new 62H but with the richer sound of the Shires - at least to my ears. Anyway, my question is this: do you choose to tune the single valve differently than the F-valve on a dual valve set? As I prefer dependent valves, I don't have the option of playing Fs and Cs on V2 alone when I play with both valves, so I tune my F valve for an in-tune F in 1st position. If I want to play low C on the single valve in tune with a good sound I have to pull the valve slide much farther out than I'm used to. I remember Ray Premru pulling out the valve slide of his Holton to play Low Cs in my lessons. I'm OK with giving up 1st position low F, but I wonder if it's worth learning an alternate set of slightly different slide positions for occasions when I want the low C. Do people tune the valve slide farther out all the time for single valve use, or pull it when necessary, or what? I'm a big boy now, and I can figure this out for myself of course, but I'm interested to hear what others do or have done. ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 08:59:57 -0500 From: Denver Seifried Subject: Duke Ellington lead trombone? List Members, Did any of you happen to watch the hour feature on BET Jazz, last evening from 9-10 p.m. EST? The bone section was the typical 3 bones of the Ellington Band; however, did you happen to notice there was a very different looking trombone setting in the middle (lead)chair of the trombone section. It was played with a neck strap, had no slide or valves, used a cane reed, and was created by Adolph Sax! Wonder what happened to Duke's lead trombone player? I know I have been reading a lot of post concerning trombonists being replaced by computers on Broadway (virtual orchestra?); but, I could never, ever live with the fact that I was replaced by a SAXOPHONE!!!!! Denny Seifried Bass Trombone-Springfield (OH) Symphony & Dayton Jazz Orchestra Adjunct Trombone-Wittenberg Univ. Dept. of Music ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 09:02:07 -0500 From: Alan Partis Subject: DER ROSENKAVALIER A friend of mine is a music history scholar and trumpet player (but I forgive him for that) who had this to say about the Strauss research ... don't know how much it helps >hi- > >can't say much on this subject-except the obvious sources like the New Grove Dictionary or the principle biographies of Strauss. I would think any recent scholarly biography would have some info and maybe more in the bibliography. Another avenue might be an email whatever professors are strauss specialists-a well worded google search might yield some names. > >joe __________________________________________________ alan partis, amateur bonehead louisville, ky ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 08:07:50 -0600 From: Harry Wootan Subject: Re: King 3B parts location Maybe you can find an old beat-up horn [or even just a bell section] that has a decent linkage. Worth watching for. -- Harry -----Original Message----- From: Todd Slothower [mailto:ts2206@RIVERDALE.ROCKIS.K12.IL.US] Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 9:55 AM Subject: King 3B parts location Hello list! I have recently acquired a well-played older King 3B, and plan to use it regularly. The problem is that the plastic or nylon linkage on the f attachment is "hogged-out" from years of use. My dealer says that a replacement is not available. Before I begin the process of making my own, does anyone know of a source for this part? Regards, Todd Slothower Moline, Illinois ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 09:08:01 EST From: JFBermann@AOL.COM Subject: Re: single valve bass Hi Gabe, When I play a single valve bass I tune it to E. Makes those low Bs happen with ease. I don't miss the Fs and Cs in first positon at all. You just have to remember that you're in E. All My Best, Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 09:19:47 -0500 From: "Avery, Ray (232)" Subject: Re: single valve bass I play just a single valve bass and have always tuned the valve section to the 2nd space C. Doing that obviously makes the trigger F to be flat, so I tend to play that note in 6th position using trigger 1st only for faster sections and lip it up the best I can. My reasoning is that the 2nd space C is used more than the F so I feel it more important for that note to be in tune. Plus, even with the trigger tuning slide pulled out about an inch, low trigger C is all the way out. I can lip up a flat F in trigger 1st when tuned to C. But, I can't lip down a trigger C when tuned to F. Ray Avery Director, Human Resources Harvard Custom Manufacturing, Inc. 607-687-7669 -----Original Message----- From: Gabriel Langfur [mailto:glangfur@YAHOO.COM] Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 8:58 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] single valve bass Hey there everyone, I just got a single valve section for my Shires bass (this is part of a bigger idea I'll talk about later when I figure it out more), and I have a question for people who've spent a significant amount of time playing on a single valve. Doug, are you out there? A child of the 80s myself, I've only ever owned one other single valve bass, which I used as a backup and marching horn (I had no choice...had to march...yuck). I sold it years ago. I love the way this feels, and since I am primarily an orchestra player, I can choose to play this setup often. This is the rotary valve Steve Shires is making now, which is no longer based on the Greenhoe valve. It's lighter & more centered than my thayer valves, but still a good, open, free sound. I've also tried a dependent set of these valves, which plays a lot like the excellent valves on the new 62H but with the richer sound of the Shires - at least to my ears. Anyway, my question is this: do you choose to tune the single valve differently than the F-valve on a dual valve set? As I prefer dependent valves, I don't have the option of playing Fs and Cs on V2 alone when I play with both valves, so I tune my F valve for an in-tune F in 1st position. If I want to play low C on the single valve in tune with a good sound I have to pull the valve slide much farther out than I'm used to. I remember Ray Premru pulling out the valve slide of his Holton to play Low Cs in my lessons. I'm OK with giving up 1st position low F, but I wonder if it's worth learning an alternate set of slightly different slide positions for occasions when I want the low C. Do people tune the valve slide farther out all the time for single valve use, or pull it when necessary, or what? I'm a big boy now, and I can figure this out for myself of course, but I'm interested to hear what others do or have done. ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 14:27:09 +0000 From: "J.c. Sherman" Subject: Re: Lacquer Questions It certainly does apply to that vintage King, and for a wide time span on either side. If you really want to strip it, I would take it to a repair tech - at a shop which specializes in overhauls. They would probably have the resources to get it off. BTW - To the comment about Brasso on the main slide - a) chrome is much harder than brass, and not much affected by Brasso and b) I wouldn't personally advocate using brasso on the main slide, especially the inner one, except in extreme circumstances. J.c. > From: "J.c. Sherman" > > Stripping a King horn, unless the laquer is not original, will be the > hardest > > thing you've ever done. They use a different lacquer, ceramic based, I > think, > > and most strips don't take it off. > > Does that apply to a 1976/77 horn like mine? It is, indeed, original lacquer. > > > I would leave it alone. > > Leaving it alone is certainly an option -- the sound isn't a problem. But it > does look like crap with all the scratches. > > Robert > -- > Robert & Linn-Marie Slaven www.robertslaven.ca > ...with Stuart, Rebecca, Mariann, Kristina, Elizabeth, and Robin too > But I'd been a good husband and father for fifteen years and I was > beginning to get fed up with it. - George Orwell, Coming Up for Air > > > > J.c. Sherman > > > From: > > > > >Do less bass trombone players remove lacquer compared with > > > > >smaller bore tenor players? > > > > > > > > Steven Carr replied: > > > > > > > > > I've had the lacquer removed for the bells of two bass trombones. I > liked > > > > > both of them better without. I also think the difference was > significant. > > > > > > > > I started having my bass bells stripped in 1978 and later learned to do > it > > > > myself and I've stripped the lacquer off most horns I've owned. In that > time > > > > interval I've owned about 9 or 10 and only two were left lacquered. > > > > > > > What's the process for stripping the lacquer? Now that I have my > > > battered-but-beloved 4B, I've been wondering how I can make it look less > > > battered. While I've thought of relacquering, I'm starting to think that > just > > > stripping it would be a good idea. Is it relatively easy, or is it a > > > difficult persnickety task? > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 14:57:35 +0000 From: "J.c. Sherman" Subject: Re: single valve bass Hey Gabe, I had the YBL-622 "Yeo" model bass for a while, and played it single valve as often as I could get away with (it played much better that way). Likewise (as you may remember :-) I did a lot of my playing in college and after on single valve basses. Until recently, I had a single valve Reynolds I adored, but recently converted it to a double dependant (to Steve Carr: I'll get pics soon). I couldn't justify staying single trigger anymore given the unpredictability of most of my gigs... On all these axes, I kept the tuning on the F valve the same, and only pulled for E on the instruments that could accommodate it. I think it is easier to learn E positions as a new set than slightly low F positions, and it makes your pitch more reliable from setup to setup. I never used the Yamaha in single trigger mode unless I had no C's, or only one or two - it could play it, but I had to have time to set up the note in the "nearly off the slide" F sixth. On the Reynolds, if I knew that several C's were coming I would pull to E. Flat F would have messed me up, both on the C and F partials. Can your Shires single pull to E? I don't recall seeing Premru pull flat F, but remember how very beautiful and flexible he was with one valve - til he switched to the Edwards double. I thought I remembered him pulling to E, and I know he had a spare throw-in valve for his Holton, but never saw him use it. I would keep your tuning stable in F. Why invite mishap and additional variables? Anyway, that's my $.02, for what it's worth. J.c. Sherman > Hey there everyone, > > I just got a single valve section for my Shires bass (this > is part of a bigger idea I'll talk about later when I > figure it out more), and I have a question for people > who've spent a significant amount of time playing on a > single valve. Doug, are you out there? A child of the 80s > myself, I've only ever owned one other single valve bass, > which I used as a backup and marching horn (I had no > choice...had to march...yuck). I sold it years ago. > > I love the way this feels, and since I am primarily an > orchestra player, I can choose to play this setup often. > This is the rotary valve Steve Shires is making now, which > is no longer based on the Greenhoe valve. It's lighter & > more centered than my thayer valves, but still a good, > open, free sound. I've also tried a dependent set of these > valves, which plays a lot like the excellent valves on the > new 62H but with the richer sound of the Shires - at least > to my ears. > > Anyway, my question is this: do you choose to tune the > single valve differently than the F-valve on a dual valve > set? As I prefer dependent valves, I don't have the option > of playing Fs and Cs on V2 alone when I play with both > valves, so I tune my F valve for an in-tune F in 1st > position. If I want to play low C on the single valve in > tune with a good sound I have to pull the valve slide much > farther out than I'm used to. I remember Ray Premru pulling > out the valve slide of his Holton to play Low Cs in my > lessons. I'm OK with giving up 1st position low F, but I > wonder if it's worth learning an alternate set of slightly > different slide positions for occasions when I want the low > C. Do people tune the valve slide farther out all the time > for single valve use, or pull it when necessary, or what? > > I'm a big boy now, and I can figure this out for myself of > course, but I'm interested to hear what others do or have > done. > > > ===== > Gabe Langfur > Boston, MA > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day > http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 15:10:09 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: Duke Ellington lead trombone? From: "Denver Seifried" > however, did you happen to notice there was a very > different looking trombone setting in the middle (lead)chair of the trombone > section. It was played with a neck strap, had no slide or valves, used a > cane reed, and was created by Adolph Sax! Similar thing happened in the Glenn Miller band when the lead trumpet player bust his chops. Glenn had to sit up all night to rewrite the entire book for clarinet lead..... ......well that is, if you believe everything in the movie plot. It's amazing how he got finished in time considering he had to try out every bass note on the piano before scoring it. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 15:45:49 +0000 From: Michael Shoshani Subject: Re: Duke Ellington lead trombone? Adrian Drover mused: > Similar thing happened in the Glenn Miller band when the lead trumpet player > bust his chops. Glenn had to sit up all night to rewrite the entire book > for clarinet lead..... > ......well that is, if you believe everything in the movie plot. > It's amazing how he got finished in time considering he had to try out every > bass note on the piano before scoring it. Don't believe the movie plot. The boring truth is, the clarinet lead evolved during GM's second band, in the mid 1930s, when the clarinet chair was occupied by Irv Fazola. Faz was, apparenyly, as inept a saxophone player as he was a superb clarinetist, so when the sax section played together he would usually sit idle. Rather than have him just sit there, Miller decided to try having Faz double the tenor sax lead on clarinet, an octave higher. No breathless weeks and months of Jimmy Stewart methodically searching for "..that...SOUND!" . It's been a good couple decades since I saw The Glenn Miller Story, but if I recall correctly it also had the 1939 recording of "Little Brown Jug" as a posthumous private gift to his wife, and I believe in the film that PEnnsylvania 6-5000 was his wife's telephone number...or a number where she was reached. In real life it was the telephone number of the Hotel Pennsylvania, which was the third Glenn Miller Orchestra's home base in New York. Michael Shoshani Chicago IL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 10:29:48 -0500 From: Roger Hecht Subject: Re: single valve bass At 09:19 AM 2/19/2003 -0500, Avery, Ray (232) wrote: >I play just a single valve bass and have always tuned the valve section to >the 2nd space C. Doing that obviously makes the trigger F to be flat, so I >tend to play that note in 6th position using trigger 1st only for faster >sections and lip it up the best I can. My reasoning is that the 2nd space C >is used more than the F so I feel it more important for that note to be in >tune. Plus, even with the trigger tuning slide pulled out about an inch, >low trigger C is all the way out. I can lip up a flat F in trigger 1st when >tuned to C. But, I can't lip down a trigger C when tuned to F. That's what I did when I played a single valve bass trombone. Not that I'd take my word for much on bass trombone. Roger Hecht ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 10:48:16 -0500 From: Roger Hecht Subject: Re: NYT Norrington Vibrato Article At 10:27 PM 2/18/2003 -0500, Randy Campora wrote: >Here are the first four paragraphs of an article by Roger Norrington from >the 2/16/03 edition of the New York Times. I believe you can go to the >paper's site and it should still be available for a while for free. I don't >think it's proper to post here the entire article so I am just posting the >first part of it. Interesting stuff, assuming all his facts are correct. > Before I lose everyone with my prolixity, I must recommend the book, 'Early Recordings and Musical Style" by Robert Philip (Cambridge) as an excellent source of discussion and information on this topic. To my knowledge, Norrington's facts are correct, and that includes his dates and players' tendencies. As evidenced by recordings from early in the 20th century, it is clear that vibrato did not really become common until around the Thirties, just as it is clear that it did not just happen--it evolved. That said, Gabe is correct when he speculates that the evolution of vibrato did not just happen by itself. It accompanied other trends in instruments development and playing, though how much one was dependent on the other is a question for others more expert than I. I do know that one major development that paralleled it was the development of steel strings for their increased power and reliability, especially in the difficult music that was being written in the 20th Century. It is ironic that while Arnold Schoenberg lamented the sound of vibrato, it was the difficult music that composers like he and Strauss wrote that helped bring in the use of steel strings. It's possible that the greater power of steel strings might have helped lead to the experimentation with vibrato, though I can't say for sure. Other changes in instruments include the substitution of wider bore brass instruments and the metal flute for the wooden. (By the way, the same evolution of vibrato among string players took place in the winds.) In a word, the orchestra got louder and darker. It may have gotten larger, as well. It seems logical then, that it would lean more toward vibrato, since vibrato creates a kind of lushness that fits this increasing size and darkness of tone. One thing that is clear from recordings: the change was neither uniform nor overnight. There were champions of both styles coexisting for a while, both among soloists and among and within orchestras. Clearly, the early 20th Century was a time of transition in this area. Perhaps Norrington is right when he speaks of a loss of innocence in the 20th Century as being a factor, as well. But styles do evolve. That doesn't mean they are wrong to do so. Frankly, I have mixed feelings about all this for a number of reasons. To begin with, for all the "historically correct" performances around, we have aural evidence of what ensembles sounded like only from around 1915 or so on. Norrington speaks of the "sound" of Mendelssohn and Brahms, but we don't really know what that sound was. We have writings describing it, many of them informal and/or anecdotal, and many of them couched in terms contemporaries understood. That is to say, we can interpret what we think that sound to be, but we can't know what it was from aural evidence. That sound as "reproduced" today, is really a guess--an educated guess, but a guess nonetheless. Frankly, I wonder as to its accuracy. For instance, Roger Norrington recently recorded Elgar's First Symphony with his Stuttgart Orchestra. As near as I can tell he was trying to capture the sound and style of Elgar's own recording of the work. He does to a degree, though I don't like the performance. (To be fair, I don't care for Norrington as a conductor. I have liked none of his recordings--though I'm told he did a decent Vaughan Williams Third--nor did I like any of his concerts with the Boston Symphony that I attended.) The most interesting aspect of Norrington's Elgar First that I mentioned is the sound of the strings. It seems he is going for that "pure tone" vibratoless style, yet the sound is nothing like that Elgar got from his orchestra in that work and in the others he recorded--and Elgar's strings used little if any vibrato. Elgar's string sound was sweet, and featured a good deal of portamento (another device that has evolved, in this case negatively). Norrington's string sound is white, without portamento, and rather harsh, a throwback to the "period instrument" Baroque recordings of Pinnock, Harnoncourt, McGehan, etc. In fact, while I'm no expert, no orchestras I've heard on 78s sound like the sound Norrington gets on this recording. Maybe he does better on other records he's made, I don't recall. As I said, I don't care for his work and don't buy his discs (though I've heard a few): the only reason I have the Elgar is that I reviewed it. I may be going way out on a limb here--I'm no expert, remember--but I am starting to question the whole "period instrument" movement. Do they really KNOW how these groups sounded? No. They have scholarship, but it's still speculative scholarship. I used to like the recordings of Harnoncourt, et al. and still do to some extent. But I find myself pulling back from them. The best are too dry and white sounding for me. Once I found that sound exhilarating. Now I find it irritating. I am a great fan of Handel opera and oratorio and have a large collection of these works. I'm listening more and more to the recordings of Leppard and Somary and less to those of Gardiner, et al.--and Gardiner is one of the best of the PI conductors. The reason this bothers me is that Handel was "discovered" more or less deeply into the PI period. This means that when there is a single recording or just two of a rare Handel opera or oratorio, it's usually PI. I'm having similar reservations with Bach and even Monteverdi PI performances, on this issue. I understand and value period scholarship, but I'm beginning to think it's just gone too far with this whitish, pungent sound it's producing. Recently, I heard Gardiner's recording of Berlioz "Romeo and Juliet." Again, we don't know if that's how the piece sounded in Berlioz's time. And we don't know if that's the way Berlioz wanted it to sound. Given what I know of him from biographies and from his clearly revolutionary ideas about the orchestra, I simply have to wonder. All this reminds me of the quandary of the great Gluck operas. Gluck was a kind of misunderstood transitional figure, in that his operas are often performed as if they are Baroque pieces when to me, they lean toward the Romantic. So many of the former style recordings simply drain the life out of them. All that said, Norrington has a point, but as Gabe points out, it's not as simple as Norrington would make it. One quick example comes to mind. Until recently, the Boston Symphony had a principal flute who played a wooden flute. He's not alone: there are others out there who do this. Many people in Boston liked his sound in the orchestra a great deal. I was not one of them. To me, as fine a player as he was (is), the sound simply did not fit. Many times I could barely hear him, and when I did, he sounded sort of like another clarinet. He had as big a sound as I can imagine anyone getting on a wooden flute, and it still didn't fit. All told, in listening to old recordings--the only aural evidence we have, and remember it goes back only to 1915 or so-- I readily concede that the sound was different then than it is now. But not *that* different, and nothing I've heard on those recordings even approximates what the PI movement is producing in its "period" recordings of Mahler, Holst, etc. This at the very least gives this admitted nonexpert pause. Roger Hecht ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 08:17:12 -0800 From: Ralph Bigelow Subject: Alan Kaplan clinic Notice to Los Angeles/Orange County area trombonists: BonesWest will host Alan Kaplan for a lecture/demonstration March 22, 2003. Guests welcome. For details go to http://boneswest.org. Ralph Bigelow BonesWest -- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 08:21:32 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: single valve bass --- thetubameister@att.net wrote: > Can your Shires single pull to E? Strangely, it doesn't pull far enough for E because of the way the tubing is wrapped. I'll have to talk to him about that... I don't recall seeing > Premru pull flat F, > but remember how very beautiful and flexible he was with > one valve - til he > switched to the Edwards double. I thought I remembered > him pulling to E, and I > know he had a spare throw-in valve for his Holton, but > never saw him use it. I dsitinctly recall him pulling his slide about 2 inches for flat F. He really hated that Holton E-valve and never used it. As it was it was way too stuffy for him, and I don't think he ever explored the D crook modification a la Dave Taylor's old Holton. He always wanted an independent double valve section, and never found one he liked until the Edwards. ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 09:56:45 -0700 From: Dennis Clason Subject: Re: single valve bass > Anyway, my question is this: do you choose to tune the > single valve differently than the F-valve on a dual valve > set? As I prefer dependent valves, I don't have the option > of playing Fs and Cs on V2 alone when I play with both > valves, so I tune my F valve for an in-tune F in 1st > position. If I want to play low C on the single valve in > tune with a good sound I have to pull the valve slide much > farther out than I'm used to. I remember Ray Premru pulling > out the valve slide of his Holton to play Low Cs in my > lessons. I'm OK with giving up 1st position low F, but I > wonder if it's worth learning an alternate set of slightly > different slide positions for occasions when I want the low > C. Do people tune the valve slide farther out all the time > for single valve use, or pull it when necessary, or what? I vary the valve tuning depending on what the demands of the work are. Usually, if it calls for a low B I prefer to use Eb tuning. Tuning the valve to E places the B almost at the end of the slide. The downside, of course is that you don't have F, E, C and B on the valve, and so you have to plan things and play with sound technique. But we ought to do that anyway. When no B's appear, I usually tune to a just slightly flat F, I have long arms, and I can get the handslide down to the end of the stocking comfortably. As best I can tell, the main reason to pull the valve slide a bit is to get the handslide in a slightly more secure position. I tinkered with using E tuning for high sharp count keys, but found that I'd forget that I'd pulled to E. Bb's just don't generally fly well in the key of A major ... so I gave up on that idea. Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 10:18:20 -0800 From: Chris Tune Subject: Re: NYT Norrington Vibrato Article Very well put, indeed! It is also a big shame that we've tended to minimize use of vibrato in the symphony orchestra (for trombonists). There are several places where I can hear a nice obvious vibrato as being artistically sound (e.g. Bolero solo, endeavoring to match others among the winds probably in terms of rate of speed of vibrato, parts of the Mozart requiem). Probably several very fine principals do perform that way from time to time, but they are not auditioning. Also, use of ample vibrato is somehow considered tasteless. That is only so, when the use is indiscriminate. Since vibrato is so rarely used these days, perhaps a bit should be said on how it is done: There are two main ways that vibrato is done on slide trombone - with lip or jaw and with the slide. The slide vibrato can be heard on recordings by commercial artists from the 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's. Urbie Green and Tommy Dorsey are two that are known for a beautiful slide vibrato. The wrist throws the slide back and forth and the forearm his held somewhat stiff to allow the slide to be thrown (be prepared to loosen the wrist to move the slide. . .) Jaw vibrato (at least the way I do it) involves moving the jaw open and closed slightly in rhythm. This produces a distortion in pitch which is perhaps subtler than the slide vibrato. This method seems to be preferred by those orchestral players who do use vibrato. Vibrato is most appropriate when indications of "dolce" or perhaps "cantabile" are seen (or implied). This is designed to produce an effect of a vocalist singing. A trombonist who has practiced vibrating can produce a very beautiful vocalistic effect. Vibrato should generally not be used during trombone section unison because the unison itself smoothes out the sound very well and vibrato confuses the listener. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Hecht" To: < > Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] NYT Norrington Vibrato Article > At 10:27 PM 2/18/2003 -0500, Randy Campora wrote: > >Here are the first four paragraphs of an article by Roger Norrington from > >the 2/16/03 edition of the New York Times. I believe you can go to the > >paper's site and it should still be available for a while for free. I don't > >think it's proper to post here the entire article so I am just posting the > >first part of it. Interesting stuff, assuming all his facts are correct. > > > > Before I lose everyone with my prolixity, I must recommend the book, 'Early > Recordings and Musical Style" by Robert Philip (Cambridge) as an excellent > source of discussion and information on this topic. > > To my knowledge, Norrington's facts are correct, and that includes his > dates and players' tendencies. As evidenced by recordings from early in the > 20th century, it is clear that vibrato did not really become common until > around the Thirties, just as it is clear that it did not just happen--it > evolved. That said, Gabe is correct when he speculates that the evolution > of vibrato did not just happen by itself. It accompanied other trends in > instruments development and playing, though how much one was dependent on > the other is a question for others more expert than I. I do know that one ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 13:59:45 -0600 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: New SCHMELZER website will look !!!!!!!!!!!! Manfred Schmelzer wrote: > Hallo Dj > pls look at my NEW Website > best Mannie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 11:09:57 -0800 From: Chris Tune Subject: Re: NYT Norrington Vibrato Article I agree with Norrington only for his own particular venue: This also leads directly to the "what creativity?" question-- I believe that orchestra players who are nonetheless interpreting historical works are quite creative. That creativity has led them to fabulous new instrumental approaches that were simply not available to Mozart, Beethoven and Brahms. I am certain these individuals would have been thrilled to have heard (well except Beethoven) the new approaches. It is clear that these great musicians were as unhappy with orchestral limitations as anybody who has ever set pen to staff paper. Mozart, in particular was very unhappy with the generally poor state of affairs with musicians playing his works. Mozart also enjoyed innovation in choice of instruments and loved a new, better sounding axe. Remember many of these same people contributed to the development of the pianoforte (i.e. what we now call a piano was only a dream of Mozart and Beethoven, they in succession had instruments which began to approach this greater dynamic capability but neither had a modern piano). I think that we should consider that there are several ways to produce music: A. Historically - like in a museum, the goal here is to hear how it might have sounded, to use research to find out as much about older techniques and instruments and to let people learn by hearing. This has incredible value to those of us who want to learn and keep on learning. B. Modern Art Music- using more modern instruments and techniques perform a wide variety of both historically valuable and newer art music so that a wide variety of people can appreciate their beauty. This may very well produce the ideal performances that many of the old masters would have drooled over! C. Modern Commercial Music - using virtually any instrument and technique, create valuable art works for commercial use. This doesn't mean they lack in art, but that the first goal is to contribute to commerce and fortunately, this is not inconsistent with high art (e.g. Duke Ellington). These performances would be of incredible facination to open minded greats like Mozart and Brahms (remember Brahms spent playing time in his youth as a commercial pianist in a brothel).. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Campora" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:27 PM Subject: [TBN-L] NYT Norrington Vibrato Article > Here are the first four paragraphs of an article by Roger Norrington from > the 2/16/03 edition of the New York Times. I believe you can go to the > paper's site and it should still be available for a while for free. I don't > think it's proper to post here the entire article so I am just posting the > first part of it. Interesting stuff, assuming all his facts are correct. > > Randy Campora > ----------------------- > Time to Rid Orchestras of the Shakes > > By ROGER NORRINGTON > New York Times > February 16, 2003 > > > ARE there any frontiers left for what used to be called the early-music > movement? As it swept the field in Monteverdi, Bach and the like in the > 1960's and 70's, the movement became closely identified with period > instruments. In recent decades, period bands, playing in what is now > called historically informed style, have been expanding their terrain to > include Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn and even later > composers. > > But the performance of early music has always been more about how you > approach and play the music than about what you play it on, and > historically informed practice has long since progressed into the > mainstream. Many of the key elements that once embarrassed "modern" > performers - tempo, orchestral seating, bow speed, articulation - are > now almost taken for granted. It is rare to come across a really slow > andante movement in a Mozart symphony. The great remaining question is > the sound orchestras made in the Romantic era. > > As audiences, we have already got used to the idea that the music of > Monteverdi or Bach is normally played and sung with pure tone, without > the use of steady vibrato, a minute fluctuation of pitch intended to > make the sound more intense. With the aid of period orchestras we are > gradually accustoming ourselves to the same sound for Haydn and Mozart - > even, on occasion, for Beethoven. But surely here, on the threshold of > the Romantic era, pure tone must be questionable. Wouldn't orchestras > from at least Berlioz's time on have used vibrato like that used today? > > Not at all. Far from being a characteristic of the 1830's, vibrato did > not become common in European or American orchestras until the 1930's........ > > (full article at www.nytimes.com) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 14:25:28 -0500 From: Wcdemmert@AOL.COM Subject: single valve bass Gabe, When I played a single valve bass I tuned my F valve so I could play a low F in first position. I also had an Eb tuning slide made for the instrument. Wade ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 13:50:05 -0600 From: Listmonitor Trombone-L Subject: Attention AOL Users - Trombone-L Issues America Online has a feature in which users can block incoming e-mails. When an e-mail is received from someone on the AOL user's blocked e-mail list, it is returned to the sender with the following message attached: Received: from omr-m08.mx.aol.com (omr-m08.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.20]) by po.missouri.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h1JGwSB19989 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 10:58:28 -0600 Received: from air-xm05.mail.aol.com (air-xm05.mail.aol.com [172.20.83.101]) by omr-m08.mx.aol.com (v90_r2.6) with ESMTP id RELAYIN9-0219115809; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 11:58:09 -0500 from: Mail Delivery Subsystem Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 11:55:43 EST To: Subject: Mail Delivery Problem Mailer: AIRmail [v90_r2.5] Message-ID: <200302191158.09LPMSCa26030@omr-m08.mx.aol.com> Your mail to the following recipients could not be delivered because they are not accepting mail from SOMEONE@SOMEWHERE.COM: AOLUserID The problem is that the listprocessor software will automatically delete the addresses mentioned in the e-mail return, and this is generating quite a few errors and subscription problems. If you are using this feature and blocking mail from a trombone-l list member, please be aware that your subscription could be automatically deleted by the listserver software. This is a built-in function of the software, and it is not user-configurable. LM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 15:08:14 -0500 From: Jim Gayfer Subject: Beginner trombone quartet music I have recently started a trombone quartet for my beginner students (from 6 -18 months). They really enjoy it (what's not to like?) but I'm having trouble finding enough music they can handle. The problem with most of the quartets that I have is that the 1st part often is too high (F or G above the staff is about max at the moment) or in tenor clef (which they haven't learned yet). Also, the 4th part is usually a bass trombone part and they are using straight tenors. Can anyone suggest some good quartets -- perhaps a book -- graded so these kids can discover the wonderful world of the trombone quartet? Any help would be appreciated. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 12:06:00 -0800 From: Galen McQuarrie Subject: Re: New SCHMELZER website Sounds great, DJ, but what is the URL? Galen McQuarrie -----Original Message----- From: D.J. Kennedy [mailto:djpens@midwest.net] Sent: Wed 2/19/2003 11:59 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Cc: Subject: [TBN-L] New SCHMELZER website will look !!!!!!!!!!!! Manfred Schmelzer wrote: > Hallo Dj > pls look at my NEW Website > best Mannie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 13:29:38 -0700 From: Steve Gamble Subject: Re: Beginner trombone quartet music Hi Jim, The books edited by John Marcellus and published by Belwin Mills are good. There are three levels of difficulty, easy to advanced. The treble clef versions of these books are compatible with the bass clef versions as long as the treble players are in Bb. There is a series of trios too. Steve Gamble, Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org 520-792-9155 x118 520-792-9314 fax 520-991-7056 cel -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Jim Gayfer Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 1:08 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] Beginner trombone quartet music I have recently started a trombone quartet for my beginner students (from 6 -18 months). They really enjoy it (what's not to like?) but I'm having trouble finding enough music they can handle. The problem with most of the quartets that I have is that the 1st part often is too high (F or G above the staff is about max at the moment) or in tenor clef (which they haven't learned yet). Also, the 4th part is usually a bass trombone part and they are using straight tenors. Can anyone suggest some good quartets -- perhaps a book -- graded so these kids can discover the wonderful world of the trombone quartet? Any help would be appreciated. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 20:29:58 +0000 From: "J.c. Sherman" Subject: Vibrato and Historical Performance ----Okay, the list monitor returned this the first time, so I'll try again (?!). 1) I agree with much of what has been said RE: vibrato and historical performance practice. 2) I am a fan of Historical preformance and Period instruments. 3) However, I think the reason most people get into this style of performance, and recording is the wrong reason - to attempt to match performance practice and the aural effects of the past. 4) I am into this style of performance because it is different. It provides variety of interpretation and sonic effect. Nothing more. It's great to learn a great deal about past performance (and important). But there is no right way. There may be a few wrong ways to my ears, but no right way. 5) I look at this style of performance practice as "arranging". I will just as readily listen to a horn quartet belt out Monteverdi as I will a historical performance orchestra or Cleveland Opera. They are all different arrangements and interpretations. And they are special for that, not for being "right". 6) Unless Norrington recorded his Elgar using "period recording equipment" onto a 78, you are going to get a very different sound, especially on digital (a thread just recently discussed). 7) I'm not too fond of Norrington's interpretations either - too strict and emotion-less. But when his recording of the Symphony Fantastique came out, I was mesmerized. It opened doors for many, including my now favorite recording by Gardinier (sp?), a favorite interpreter for me. 8) Vibrato is such a weird topic - everyone has a different opinion on every instrument, trombones being no exception. How to do it, when to do it, and whether to do it will be an eternal variable in music, I think. Presently, I think the effect is nearly universally over-applied in strings and flute, under- applied in horn, clarinet, trombone and tuba. My bias. 9) Generally I prefer the timber and basic interpretation of historical performance practice. But the sound is now so common, I'm looking into other ways to hear music fresh again - other arrangements, other instruments. Even modern orchestral performances of the Baroque. 10) If you're not buying a recording or attending a concert to hear fresh art, why bother? I'm done... J.c.S. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 15:39:22 -0600 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Re: New SCHMELZER website sorry its www.schmelzertrombone.de Galen McQuarrie wrote: > Sounds great, DJ, but what is the URL? > Galen McQuarrie > > -----Original Message----- > From: D.J. Kennedy [mailto:djpens@midwest.net] > Sent: Wed 2/19/2003 11:59 AM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Cc: > Subject: [TBN-L] New SCHMELZER website > > will look !!!!!!!!!!!! > > Manfred Schmelzer wrote: > > > Hallo Dj > > pls look at my NEW Website > > best Mannie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 16:24:26 -0500 From: Chuck De Paolo Subject: Re: Beginner trombone quartet music Steve's recommendation of the Belwin quartets is a good one. Also consider the set by Rubank entitled "Quartet Repertoire for Trombone Quartet." Like the Belwin, they're designed for younger player - all in bass clef, no bass trombone part, not a high first part. Rubank does another set called "Trombone Symphony." Unlike "Repertoire," these books are in score form - buy one for each kid. Another option is to use the little King books, i.e. "24 Early German Chorales" and "16 Chorales." Both are marching band sized books in score form. Again - no tenor clef, no required bass trombone. Unlike the earlier mentioned books however, these books are better suited for stronger players, and a bass trombone is a big help on the 4th part. Additionally, the first part is probably a little high for such raw beginners. Hope this helps! In Music, ---Charles De Paolo General Manager & Webmaster Hickey's Music Center 104 Adams Street Ithaca, NY 14850 607.272.8262 (Phone) 607.272.2203 (Fax) chuck@hickeys.com (E-Mail) http://www.hickeys.com (Website) http://www.weather.com/weather/local/14850 ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Gayfer Subject: [TBN-L] Beginner trombone quartet music I have recently started a trombone quartet for my beginner students (from 6 -18 months). They really enjoy it (what's not to like?) but I'm having trouble finding enough music they can handle. The problem with most of the quartets that I have is that the 1st part often is too high (F or G above the staff is about max at the moment) or in tenor clef (which they haven't learned yet). Also, the 4th part is usually a bass trombone part and they are using straight tenors. Can anyone suggest some good quartets -- perhaps a book -- graded so these kids can discover the wonderful world of the trombone quartet? Any help would be appreciated. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 14:39:12 -0700 From: Steve Gamble Subject: Re: Beginner trombone quartet music Chuck's message made me realize I should have mentioned that the Belwin books are in score form. You'll need one for each player. Steve Gamble, Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org 520-792-9155 x118 520-792-9314 fax 520-991-7056 cel -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Chuck De Paolo Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 2:24 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Beginner trombone quartet music Steve's recommendation of the Belwin quartets is a good one. Also consider the set by Rubank entitled "Quartet Repertoire for Trombone Quartet." Like the Belwin, they're designed for younger player - all in bass clef, no bass trombone part, not a high first part. Rubank does another set called "Trombone Symphony." Unlike "Repertoire," these books are in score form - buy one for each kid. Another option is to use the little King books, i.e. "24 Early German Chorales" and "16 Chorales." Both are marching band sized books in score form. Again - no tenor clef, no required bass trombone. Unlike the earlier mentioned books however, these books are better suited for stronger players, and a bass trombone is a big help on the 4th part. Additionally, the first part is probably a little high for such raw beginners. Hope this helps! In Music, ---Charles De Paolo General Manager & Webmaster Hickey's Music Center 104 Adams Street Ithaca, NY 14850 607.272.8262 (Phone) 607.272.2203 (Fax) chuck@hickeys.com (E-Mail) http://www.hickeys.com (Website) http://www.weather.com/weather/local/14850 ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Gayfer Subject: [TBN-L] Beginner trombone quartet music I have recently started a trombone quartet for my beginner students (from 6 -18 months). They really enjoy it (what's not to like?) but I'm having trouble finding enough music they can handle. The problem with most of the quartets that I have is that the 1st part often is too high (F or G above the staff is about max at the moment) or in tenor clef (which they haven't learned yet). Also, the 4th part is usually a bass trombone part and they are using straight tenors. Can anyone suggest some good quartets -- perhaps a book -- graded so these kids can discover the wonderful world of the trombone quartet? Any help would be appreciated. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 17:23:32 -0500 From: Dave & Pam Sherman Subject: Re: King 3B parts location I had that part replace last year. The shop that I went to had no trouble replacing it. Maybe you should try a different repair shop. Dave Harry Wootan wrote: >Maybe you can find an old beat-up horn [or even just a bell section] >that has a decent linkage. Worth watching for. > > -- Harry > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Todd Slothower [mailto:ts2206@RIVERDALE.ROCKIS.K12.IL.US] >Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 9:55 AM >Subject: King 3B parts location > > >Hello list! >I have recently acquired a well-played older King 3B, and plan to use it >regularly. The problem is that the plastic or nylon linkage on the f >attachment is "hogged-out" from years of use. My dealer says that a >replacement is not available. Before I begin the process of making my >own, does anyone know of a source for this part? > >Regards, > >Todd Slothower >Moline, Illinois > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 18:44:44 -0500 From: Dave & Pam Sherman Subject: Re: King 3B parts location My mistake. I had it replaced on a 5B not a 3B. I'm not sure if it is the same part. Dave & Pam Sherman wrote: > I had that part replace last year. The shop that I went to had no > trouble replacing it. Maybe you should try a different repair shop. > > Dave > > Harry Wootan wrote: > >> Maybe you can find an old beat-up horn [or even just a bell section] >> that has a decent linkage. Worth watching for. >> >> -- Harry >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Todd Slothower [mailto:ts2206@RIVERDALE.ROCKIS.K12.IL.US] >> Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 9:55 AM >> Subject: King 3B parts location >> >> >> Hello list! >> I have recently acquired a well-played older King 3B, and plan to use it >> regularly. The problem is that the plastic or nylon linkage on the f >> attachment is "hogged-out" from years of use. My dealer says that a >> replacement is not available. Before I begin the process of making my >> own, does anyone know of a source for this part? >> >> Regards, >> >> Todd Slothower >> Moline, Illinois >> >> >> > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 16:11:51 -0800 From: Tom Izzo Subject: Re: Duke Ellington lead trombone? Denny, I didn't see the program, but was it a slide sax or "just" a standard issue? Tom --- Denver Seifried wrote: > List Members, > Did any of you happen to watch the hour feature on > BET Jazz, last evening > from 9-10 p.m. EST? The bone section was the typical > 3 bones of the > Ellington Band; however, did you happen to notice > there was a very ===== Tom Izzo Principal Trombonist, Bristol Renaissance Faire Bass Trombonist, West Suburban Symphony Orchestra Alto/Tenor/Bass/Contrabass Trombones, Tubas, Bass Trumpet, Euphonium, Electric Bass, Percussion http://www.Geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/7875/ (630) 983-1985 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 20:58:28 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo Subject: Re: single valve bass I wrote an article for the ITA Journal (Vol 12, No 3, July 1984) titled, "In Defense of the Single Valve Bass Trombone." I played a single valve bass trombone for many years, and still do frequently. When i worked with Yamaha to design the YBL-622 bass trombone, having a detachable second valve to make the horn a single valve instrument was a key part of the design. Most orchestral repertoire can be played on a single valve bass trombone - over 95%. I tune my single valve bass to play F in tune all the way in first - that's the way I tune the F valve on my double valve bass trombone as well. As such, the C (2nd space) must be played in a flat first position. This tuning renders an in tune low C to be impossible, but the low C is rarely called for in orchestral repertoire whereas the advantage of having an in tune low F in first position is greatly to be prized. When I need a low C or B, I pull the F slide and put the valve in E. Or I use my double valve horn. I've played Die Walkure (complete opera) and Berg Violin Concerto (plenty of low C's and B's in both pieces) on a single valve bass, going back and forth between an F and E tuning. And hundreds of other pieces. Obviously for brass quintet and other active work (orchestral playing does not qualify as "active work" by comparison) a double valve bass trombone of some ilk has great advantages in flexibility. That's what works for me, and why. See my ITA Journal article for more info. -Doug Yeo -- Douglas Yeo Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra Music Director, The New England Brass Band dyeo@rcn.com /// yeo@yeodoug.com http://www.yeodoug.com <>< ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 21:09:51 -0500 From: Roger Carmichael Subject: Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer Does anyone have experience with the Denis Wick "Tone Enhancer" which is = a metal sleeve that fits over the mouthpiece and shank to alter the = tone. Selmer also sells these but maybe under a different name. My = main interest is in darkening the tone of my bass trombone and I am = curious if these things work. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 21:36:02 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer >Does anyone have experience with the Denis Wick "Tone Enhancer" >which is a metal sleeve that fits over the mouthpiece and shank to >alter the tone. Selmer also sells these but maybe under a different >name. My main interest is in darkening the tone of my bass trombone >and I am curious if these things work. ============ I use one on bass and love it. Cnters things in substantially for me... Don't like them so much on tenor, but I NEED some weight on bass. S -- (Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at and/or , email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 20:42:32 -0600 From: Corliss Subject: Re: Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer I use a large nut that I got at the hardware for 25 cents that fits snugly on the bottom of the mouthpiece. It works fine. Richard Corliss ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Carmichael" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 8:09 PM Subject: [TBN-L] Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer > Does anyone have experience with the Denis Wick "Tone Enhancer" which is a metal sleeve that fits over the mouthpiece and shank to alter the tone. Selmer also sells these but maybe under a different name. My main interest is in darkening the tone of my bass trombone and I am curious if these things work. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 21:49:06 -0500 From: Chris Dearth Subject: Re: Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer On bass it probably works more effectively. On tenor, it just tends to sound a little dead. High range on tenor is better. I agree with Sam that centering is a little better. It also fits funny on mouthpieces that are not Dennis Wick (if you look at the inside, it is designed for the shape of the wick mouthpieces). It'll fit and work fine, but just looks weird. Interesting piece to experiment with that won't break the bank. Chris Dearth ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Carmichael" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 9:09 PM Subject: [TBN-L] Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer Does anyone have experience with the Denis Wick "Tone Enhancer" which is a metal sleeve that fits over the mouthpiece and shank to alter the tone. Selmer also sells these but maybe under a different name. My main interest is in darkening the tone of my bass trombone and I am curious if these things work. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 20:57:29 -0600 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer I haven't used the Wick, but I have played some heavy mouthpieces (mostly Storks, but a few others). I like it in certain situations. I play a heavy Stork on bass. I don't know if I would say it is darker, I might prefer the term more focused. I like them in situations where I want a very consistent tone (most classical settings). I don't really like improvising on them, because I find it is harder to vary the timbre and they feel just a touch less flexible to me. This really only bothers me in improvisational settings. Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE- > L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Roger Carmichael > Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 8:10 PM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: [TBN-L] Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer > > Does anyone have experience with the Denis Wick "Tone Enhancer" which is a > metal sleeve that fits over the mouthpiece and shank to alter the tone. > Selmer also sells these but maybe under a different name. My main > interest is in darkening the tone of my bass trombone and I am curious if > these things work. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 22:22:14 -0500 From: Steve Carr Subject: Re: Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer just to confuse matters . . . i use it on large tenor almost all of the time (I have a brand other than Wick) Would use it on bass in symphonic situation if I didn't already use a 'heavy' mp for that. Don't like if for bass in commercial settings. I'd give it a try - it's one of the cheaper 'gimmicks - it does make a difference - it easy to put on / take off - use it when it helps you. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Carmichael" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 9:09 PM Subject: [TBN-L] Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer Does anyone have experience with the Denis Wick "Tone Enhancer" which is a metal sleeve that fits over the mouthpiece and shank to alter the tone. Selmer also sells these but maybe under a different name. My main interest is in darkening the tone of my bass trombone and I am curious if these things work. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 21:27:11 -0600 From: Corliss Subject: Fw: [TBN-L] Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer Let me clarify my comment about using a large nut. I normally use a 11c but yesterday I started trying a 12c with a large nut to reduce its brightness. Its too early to tell whether I will keep to it but it seems to be working well. It seems to be less bright than the 11c with some of the advantages of a smaller mouthpiece. Richard Corliss ----- Original Message ----- From: "Corliss" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 8:42 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer > I use a large nut that I got at the hardware for 25 cents that fits snugly > on the bottom of the mouthpiece. It works fine. > > Richard Corliss > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roger Carmichael" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 8:09 PM > Subject: [TBN-L] Mouthpiece Tone Enhancer > > > > Does anyone have experience with the Denis Wick "Tone Enhancer" which is a > metal sleeve that fits over the mouthpiece and shank to alter the tone. > Selmer also sells these but maybe under a different name. My main interest > is in darkening the tone of my bass trombone and I am curious if these > things work. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 22:48:34 -0600 From: "Michael B. McCreless" Subject: interesting This is interesting - > > GASOLINE SOLUTION! We CAN buy gasoline that's not from the Middle East. > The Saudis are boycotting American goods. We should return the favor. An > interesting thought is to boycott their GAS. Every time you fill up the > car, you can avoid putting more money into the coffers of Saudi Arabia. > Just buy from gas companies that don't import their oil from the Saudis. > > Nothing is more frustrating than the feeling that every time I fill-up the > tank, I am sending my money to people who are trying to kill me, my > family, and my friends. I thought it might be interesting for you to know > which oil companies are the best to buy gas from and which major companies > import Middle Eastern oil (for the period 9/1/00 - 8/31/01): > > Shell....................................................205,742,000 > barrels > Chevron/Texaco................................144,332,000 barrels > Exxon /Mobil......................................130,082,000 barrels > Marathon/Speedway.........................117,740,000 barrels > Amoco..................................................62,231,000 barrels > > If you do the math at $30/barrel, these imports amount to over $18 > BILLION! > > Here are some large companies that do not import Middle Eastern oil: > > Citgo..................................................................... > 0 barrels > Sunoco.................................................................0 > barrels > Conoco.................................................................0 > barrels > Sinclair.................................................................. > 0 barrels > BP/Phillips............................................................0 > barrels > Hess...................................................................... > 0 barrels > > All of this information is available from the Department of Energy and > each is required to state where they get their oil and how much they are > importing.They report on a monthly basis. Keep this list in your car; > share it with friends. Stop paying for terrorism............. > > But, to have an impact, we need to reach literally millions of gas buyers. > It's really simple to do!! Now, don't wimp out at this point...keep > reading and I'll explain how simple it is to reach millions of people!! > > I'm sending this note to about thirty people. If each of you send it to at > least ten more (30 x 10 = 300)... and those 300 send it to at least ten > more (300 x 10 = 3,000) ... and so on, by the time the message reaches the > sixth generation of people, we will have reached over THREE MILLION > consumers! > > If those three million get excited and pass this on to ten friends each, > then 30 million people will have been contacted! > > If it goes one level further, you guessed it..... THREE HUNDRED MILLION > PEOPLE!!! Again, all you have to do is send this to 10 people. How much > would all that take? > If each of us sends this e-mail out to ten more people within one day all > 300 MILLION people could conceivably be contacted within the next eight > days! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 08:28:33 +0300 From: eliezer aharoni Subject: single valve bass/Eb slide I also prefare palying with my slide tuned to F, and flatten the C with the slide. This depends much on the horn you play - on the Holton I played many yrars ago both C and F were fine in tune in 1st position without any adjusting, and also I could get a decent low C in tune without pulling out the tuning slide!!!! One advice I 'd like to pass to all single valvers is: Get an Eb tuning slide!!! I use it for some pieces that need low B's. I used it recently when we played "Turandot" and Lloyd Weber "Requiem". Low B's came out rich and resonant, and I even felt the whole horn was responding better!!! With Eb valve, though you actually give up all valve "shortcuts", but it takes your low register right where from the "no valve" horn stops, and gives you a fully chromatic horn all the way down,with respnsive,rich sounding and tunable low C and B. I would not recommand it as a permanent setup, but certainly a worthwhile piece of equipment to have ready in your case for pieces requiring low B's. Thei're not too expensive, and if you can't get them from the company, it's something a good repairman can build for you. Eliezer Aharoni Bass Trombonist, Jerusalem Symphony Orchestra POB 4025, Jerusalem ISRAEL 91040 Phone ++972 2 5341333 Please avoid sending documents as attachments - we use a Macintosh computer and in some cases can not convert them. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 08:46:22 +0300 From: eliezer aharoni Subject: JSO situation Hello listers Many people ask about the situation of Jerusalem Symphony Orchestra, so some information regarding our situation. The orchestra, previously the Israely Radio Orchestra, was transformed into a complex-structre corporation sponsored and financed by the Radio, Jerusalem Municipality, Israel Ministry of Culture and Jerusalem Fundation. Following a big deficit, The orchestra have undergone a "recuperation plan" and had to fire 10 members. After a successful tour in USA the orchestra returned, but the instruments were held by the carrier for a week due to debts!!! As funds were delayed to the orchestra, the management anonced suspending all activities till March 1st and if funds are not forwarded till then - they'll resign. The Orchestra players felt that this was unfair towards our subscribers, so the player's comette took on the production of 2 subscription series, with volenteer conductor and soloists. Last night concert, with Eli Jaffe conducting, playing Leonora 3. Mozart Flute & Harp double Concerto, and Dvorak's "New World Symphony" was very successful with a lot of sympathy from the audience. We got a lot of supporting messages from the Municipality and hopefully situation will stabilize. Eliezer Aharoni Bass Trombonist, Jerusalem Symphony Orchestra POB 4025, Jerusalem ISRAEL 91040 Phone ++972 2 5341333 Please avoid sending documents as attachments - we use a Macintosh computer and in some cases can not convert them. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 00:57:54 EST From: Posaune9@AOL.COM Subject: edwards tenor trombone leadpipes for sale - cheap Dear list, I am offering the following Edwards leadpipes: I have 3 brass leadpipes numbers 1, 2, and 3. I'll sale them for 15 bucks each. These are standard, factory-cut pipes. I have 3 sterling silver pipes. I have two number 1 leadpipes. One is cut to approximately 9 inches, the other is cut to just a little over 8.5 inches. The other sterling pipe is a number 2, and it measures also just over 8.5 inches. I am selling each of these for 50 a piece. Buyer pays shipping. I'll sell the whole collection for $170, and I'll pay shipping. Please email me privately if you are interested. Ryan Johnstone Curtis Institute of Music Axiom Brass Quintet ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 18 Feb 2003 to 19 Feb 2003 (#2003-50) ****************************************************************