Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 4 Feb 2003 to 5 Feb 2003 (#2003-36) Date: Thursday, February 6, 2003 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 15 messages totalling 724 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. digital music 2. Saving Live Broadway (6) 3. FW: More on Broadway negotiations 4. Wednesday Humor - Gilbert & Sullivan (2) 5. 6. Fwd: additional TBC Brass Masterclasses 7. Tommy Dorsey Orchestra in Houston (2) 8. Christian Lindberg ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 08:07:06 -0500 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL Subject: digital music I'm not one of the analogophiles nor am I ever going to resurrect a turntable. I'm down to my last dozen LPs and when I've copied those I'm done. But I've really got to say "me too" about the concentration level when you know you can repeat any track on a CD so easily. It applies to rental movie videos too - part of the reason the theater experience is so different is because you can't rewind. Every time I watch with the family and someone says, "oh I missed that, hand me the remote" it drives me nuts. There's another factor with CDs that further dilutes the listening experience. They are too small and too cheap, allowing us to own way too many. Do you have any you haven't played yet? I have a whole stack like that. The only way a lot of them get played is background music, and that isn't really listening. Also, they are too long, nobody can pay attention for 64 minutes or whatever it is. One side of an LP was about right. I bought a Michalla Patri recorder CD. I paid full price, too, just about killed me to do that, it's against my frugal soul. But I've heard her on the radio off and on for years, finally got the chance to see her in person, and it was one of the best concert experiences I've ever had. (my wife bought the tickets and wouldn't tell me what she paid) You know, though I still love her playing, I've never played the CD all the way through. Probably the only time I play it is when I want to show somebody what a recorder can really do - I just don't enjoy listening to it, it pales compared to reality. Here's a wacko thought. When I was growing up, home sound systems, even the expensive ones, weren't much better than the steel needle/dog's head speaker. The only time you heard real sound was live, and the contrast between good live sound and abysmal recorded sound was obvious to anyone with ears. A group of audiophiles leapt to the conclusion they could cross that gap by improving the technology of sound recording and playback, and they did. But the real reason for the contrast never had anything to do with sound quality, it was due to the difference between live and memorex. Now we've come as far as we can go with digital, I think today's sampling schemes are better than the ear/brain. and it's still unsatisfying. Gullible people are pursuing the analog trap - let's go back to LPs, let's get vacuum tube amplifiers, monster cables, more speakers, etc. Somehow I don't think it will work, they're trying to solve the wrong problem. No amount of technology will make a recording live - it's not sound reproduction that's at fault, we're already darn near perfect. I know Sam partially disagrees, and maybe his ears are better than mine. I played a lot of polka gigs growing up in the midwest, with a particularly lousy band much of the time, and we made the crowd pretty happy. Of course they were drunk, but still - don't think you could have done that with a dj. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 08:05:17 -0600 From: Chris Waage Subject: Re: Saving Live Broadway This discussion reminds me of the VHS/Beta format issue in the early 1980's. If you ask anyone in the trades about the formats, Beta is far superior. However, it was a bit more expensive and never came into favor. The sound quality and picture was far better than VHS, but (if memory serves me at all) Sony and JVC chose to get behind VHS because it had a higher profit margin. Did the public care? Not in the least. They just wanted to be able to watch their movies. Personally, I prefer live music. However, with my schedule and responsibilities, the CD player is the only venue I currently attend (unless I'm on the stage). Do I like that? Not at all. I have to completely agree with Sam and the others who have posted about the difference between live vs. recorded. However, does the general public notice a difference? Nope. They've been conditioned through television, video games and computers to accept the digital equivalent as the reality. Chris ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 08:02:42 -0700 From: Steve Gamble Subject: FW: More on Broadway negotiations This is timely to recent discussion. It's long, but interesting. The most pertinent stuff to our discussion is at the bottom. Steve Gamble, Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org 520-792-9155 x118 520-792-9314 fax 520-991-7056 cel -----Original Message----- From: molalist-owner@mola-inc.org [mailto:molalist-owner@mola-inc.org] On Behalf Of Library Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 6:21 AM To: MOLA (E-mail) Subject: FW: More on Broadway negotiations Some of us might find this of interest. Mary Plaine Baltimore Symphony Orchestra -----Original Message----- Music Copyists Now on Table at League-Musicians' Union Talks By Robert Simonson Playbill February 4, 2003 The League of American Theatres and Producers began its current contract negotiations with Local 802 of the Associated Musicians of Greater New York saying it wanted to be rid of the hiring minimums that sometimes require Broadway musicals to employ more musicians than the shows need. Now, reports Variety, the League is looking to cut music copyists out of the deal completely.The union and music copyists have been expecting the move for some time. The League has tried to force copyists from the bargaining unit before and is making a concerted effort to achieve that end this time around. Music copying is an obscure but essential part of the process of creating a musical. Composers typically produce only a piano/vocal score, after which an orchestrator takes over. The orchestrator then creates a full score, with parts for himself and all the musicians. The music copyist fashions these various versions of the score, transcribing the hand written music delivered by the orchestrator onto computer programs and then printing them out on custom-made score paper. As the score changes throughout the rehearsal and preview period, a music copyist must deal with successive versions of the songlist. It is not unusual for a copyist to receive four or five scores a day and be required to turn the alterations around within hours or overnight. Copyists typically have a sophisticated musical background and know intimately the written language of music, its notes, keys, rests and clefs. Among the leading music copyists working on Broadway shows are Emily Grishman and Peter Miller. The League confirmed that it had petitioned the National Relations Board on Feb. 3, with the intention of identifying copyists as "independent contractors and not employees of our productions." The memo states: "The effect of our petition, if granted, will be the removal of copyists from the Local 802 collective bargaining unit, rendering league members free to contract with copying house and copyists as they wish." League and union representatives are currently in talks and were unavailable for comment at press time. Local 802 recently began running radio ads to drum up support for their cause. The spots feature stage stars such as Tom Wopat and Ben Vereen touting the importance of live music by professional musicians in the theatre. The guild has also run print ads in Playbill. "We want to raise public consciousness that there are Broadway orchestras," Local 802 president William Moriarty told Variety Jan. 26. The musician minimums have long been a controversial aspect of the players union and a continual gripe of Broadway producers. As the contract now stands, backers must employ a certain number of musicians whether they require them of not. The paid, but unused, union members are known as "walkers." The number of demanded workers fluctuates with the size of the theatre. According to Variety, since 1993 producers may barter with the union on a show-by-show basis. If they succeed, the required number of musicians can be lowered. Said Moriarty, there has been only one walker hired since 1993 (for Hairspray ). Seven out of 19 special petitions by producers over the past decade have been OK'd outright by the union. Local 802 is banking that, should there be a strike, fellow theatrical unions will stick by them and not cross the picket line. In January, 13 Broadway unions and guilds got together to create the Coalition for Broadway Unions and Guilds (COBUG). Moriarty has been busy corralling the other unions' support of Local 802's position. The contract between the League of American Theatres and Producers and the Broadway musicians union expires on March 2. As previously reported, theatre producers are preparing for a possible strike by exploring the use of recorded music in Broadway shows. About the possibility of replacing live musicians with recorded music, Bill Moriarty told the New York Times: "I've been getting warnings or threats for about nine months." In fact, the Times obtained a copy of a letter sent to the League by Jeff Lazarus, chief executive of RealTime Music Solutions, which implants virtual orchestras that simulate live musicians using digital recordings. The letter states, "We want to have a place on Broadway, so we're interested in having dialogue with Broadway producers . . . [Cost is] $21,000 to $50,000 depending on amount of music in show, plus $15,000 to $20,000 in equipment costs, which can be recouped from weekly fee on run of show or subsequent production." Jed Bernstein, president of the League, told the New York daily, "The upcoming negotiations will be confronting a range of very difficult issues, not the least of which is the longstanding practice that requires producers to pay for more musicians than are artistically necessary. We are committed to reach a happy resolution with 802 on that and any other issues that will not lead to any work stoppage. But, we are committed to having our shows play on regardless." A notice posted on www.craiglist.org, an employment bulletin board, was particularly troubling to the musicians union. The posting read, "Music Operator to operate computerized virtual orchestra for New York musical theater production in the event of a labor dispute. Must be able to read music. Strong rhythm and keyboard skills a plus." Moriarty and Bernstein exchanged letters over the posting, which was eventually taken down. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:23:05 -0600 From: Chris Waage Subject: Wednesday Humor - Gilbert & Sullivan In 1879, Ferdinand Feghoot reported to Benjamin Disraeli on the completion of a most delicate diplomatic mission. "Mr. Prime Minister," Feghoot said, "I am pleased to say that I have arranged a reconciliation between Mr. William S. Gilbert and Mr. Arthur Sullivan." "The Queen will be most pleased to hear this," Disraeli replied. "She so enjoyed 'H. M. S Pinafore,' and was devastated when it appeared that the unfortunate personal animosity between the authors might prevent any further collaboration between them. But, pray, how did you bring them back together?" "It appeared to me," Feghoot replied, "that the greatest source of friction between them was Mr. Sullivan's distaste for some of the more fanciful elements in Mr. Gilbert's plot ideas. I therefore outlined for them a lighthearted yet fundamentally realistic historical plot on which they might both agree." "The setting is in colonial Philadelphia, some two centuries past. The colony's genial Quaker founder is nonplussed by the unexpected arrival of his mother's two elderly, eccentric sisters, who are enthusiasts for a scheme to uplift the Red Indians by teaching them English pastry baking. A cooperative local chief agrees to take the two ladies off his hands, seeing them, if nothing else, as a source greater variety for the tribe's desert menu." "All seems to be going well, but the following week the chief returns to Philadelphia in a panic. It transpires that the ladies have indeed converted multitudes of the Red Indians to the delights of English baking; but in doing so they have introduced a schism into the tribe, for each lady has proved to be a monomaniacal adherent of but a single dessert: quince pie in the case of one sister, paw paw pie in the case of the other. Each refuses to bake any other dish, and their respective adherents, far from becoming jaded with this lack of variety, have come to tomahawk blows over the merits of the two pastries." "Well, I shall leave it to Mr. Gilbert's ingenuity to unravel the pretty little imbroglio I have outlined; but both he and Mr. Sullivan seem quite willing to bury their differences and undertake the task. So, Mr. Prime Minister, you may inform Her Majesty that Messrs. Gilbert and Sullivan's next work will be . . . 'The Pie Riots of Penn's Aunts.'" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:32:36 -0500 From: DSlide13@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Saving Live Broadway In a message dated 2/5/2003 9:05:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, chris@TROMBONE.ORG writes: > However, does the general public notice a difference? > > Nope. They've been conditioned through television, video > games and > computers to accept the digital equivalent as the reality. > > Chris I disagree...I disagree....I vehemently disagree. The general public notices the difference when they sit in front of a live musician. Why do you think they shell out $30 to sit in the nosebleed seats of a sold out pop show in a stadium? They're looking for something special. If that something special were more available to most, and more affordable too....they would most certainly choose live over memorex. That's how live music lives in NYC. The musicians don't live, but the music does in many venues around the city. It would be nice if the musicians could live a little better too. David Gibson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:48:09 -0500 From: tbonegib@BELLSOUTH.NET Subject: Some new Piano Accomp MIDI files have been added to the General Area of our site (www.trombonelessons.com) Have a ton o fun with these:-) Dr. Tom Gibson Georgia State University School of Music ph: 404-651-1740 trombonelessons.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:49:59 EST From: SteveInside@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Saving Live Broadway In a message dated 05/02/03 15:34:53 GMT Standard Time, DSlide13@AOL.COM writes: > It would be nice if the musicians could live a little better too. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Yes! It breaks my heart to think that if I'd stuck at it back there in the 70s, by now - if I'd been mederately successful -, I'd be earning about 30,000 a year UK and have no job security. Less than a typical brand manager makes with five years experience. Steve C England ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:24:19 EST From: BITEensemble@AOL.COM Subject: Fwd: additional TBC Brass Masterclasses --part1_24.365fab4f.2b7294b3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_24.365fab4f.2b7294b3_boundary Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part2_24.365fab4f.2b728ec2_boundary" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_24.365fab4f.2b7294b3_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:34:04 -0600 From: Fred Hudson Subject: Re: Tommy Dorsey Orchestra in Houston This is a great show - Buddy does a lot of tunes from the Dorsey Charts and a lot from his own Big Band charts. At 82 he is older than the total ages of the three guys in the section but he still cuts it. Make an effort to go if you are near by - It's worth it. Fred H ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dilshad Kasmani" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 10:50 PM Subject: [TBN-L] Tommy Dorsey Orchestra in Houston > I thought that some of my fellow Houstonians may be interested in this... > > The TDO - conducted by Buddy Morrow and featuring Walt Andrus - will be > performing in Houston on February 16, at the Don Coleman Coliseum, 1050 > Dairy Ashford, at 4PM. > > Advance purchase tickets are $15; the door price will be $18. There will > also be VIP tickets for $50 and tables of six for $250. > > Tickets can be purchased through Northbrook HS. Call 713-365-4430 for more > information. > > See ya'll there. > > Dilshad Kasmani > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:59:58 -0600 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: Tommy Dorsey Orchestra in Houston I spent about 3 and a half months on that band in late 1997. Buddy was only 77 or 78 then...every night he would do something that made me just shake my head and think, "How does he DO that?" Sometimes his age would show a bit, but even on his bad nights he would play at least one thing that would have been amazing coming from a great player half his age. Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE- > L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Fred Hudson > Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 11:34 AM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Tommy Dorsey Orchestra in Houston > > This is a great show - Buddy does a lot of tunes from the Dorsey Charts > and > a lot from his own Big Band charts. At 82 he is older than the total ages > of > the three guys in the section but he still cuts it. > > Make an effort to go if you are near by - It's worth it. > > Fred H > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dilshad Kasmani" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 10:50 PM > Subject: [TBN-L] Tommy Dorsey Orchestra in Houston > > > > I thought that some of my fellow Houstonians may be interested in > this... > > > > The TDO - conducted by Buddy Morrow and featuring Walt Andrus - will be > > performing in Houston on February 16, at the Don Coleman Coliseum, 1050 > > Dairy Ashford, at 4PM. > > > > Advance purchase tickets are $15; the door price will be $18. There will > > also be VIP tickets for $50 and tables of six for $250. > > > > Tickets can be purchased through Northbrook HS. Call 713-365-4430 for > more > > information. > > > > See ya'll there. > > > > Dilshad Kasmani > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:16:03 +0000 From: alan partis Subject: Re: Saving Live Broadway At 10:32 AM 02/05/2003, DSlide31 wrote: > >At 08:05 AM 02/05/2003, Chris Waage wrote: > > However, does the general public notice a difference? > > > > Nope. They've been conditioned through television, video > > games and computers to accept the digital equivalent as the reality. > >I disagree...I disagree....I vehemently disagree. > >The general public notices the difference when they sit in front of a live >musician. Why do you think they shell out $30 to sit in the nosebleed >seats of a sold out pop show in a stadium? Being a member of the general public (albeit a more musical than average one) that buys concert tickets, I agree that many of us do know the difference, but there are still plenty of reasons I sometimes prefer pre-recorded CDs to live performances. As Sam pointed out the other day, and I agree with him on this, nothing matches the experience/sound of a live performance, but he also listed a whole bunch of caveats: get the right seat in the auditorium/club, the quality of the sound system and the engineer running it, etc. I would also add personal preference to the list and a whole bunch of other people-factors like having a good crowd that is appreciative and has proper manners, etc. With a CD in my living room, at the very least, depending on the quality of my stereo and speakers, I can hear almost what the recording engineer intended me to hear (which is hopefully the result of a collaboration with the musician in the studio), sit in my favorite chair, and put the volume where it works best for me. And unless I'm willing to shell out $200 a seat or more, I'm never going to have great seats to see Billy Joel, or Sting, and even if I did, I'd have to hope that somehow the ugly acoustics of the cavernous arena could be overcome and that the sound man and I both like a little less bass and on and on. With a CD, I can be much more confident that I am likely to enjoy the listening experience, even with it's degraded sound. Even when I have attended concerts at more music-friendly venues like the Kravis Center in Palm Beach or the Cerritos Performing Arts Center outside L.A. to see people like Diane Schuur (who is an outstanding performer) there are always little distractions from others in the audience who just don't know concert etiquette that can detract from the experience. So, defects in sound in digital reproductions or not, again, the CD while not the real thing, can certainly help me re-live the feelings from the live performance. I agree that live performances cannot be beat for sound and experience quality, there are so many factors that can quickly send it down the toilet that for my money, with advancing technology the recording is often a better bet (which is easy to for me to say since I'm now trying to justify in my mind why I opted not to drive 75 minutes up the road to Cincinnati this weekend to see Christian Lindberg live -- that's one decision that I may regret). ______________________________________ alan partis, amateur bonehead louisville, ky ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:33:36 -0600 From: "Isaac J. Roorda" Subject: Re: Saving Live Broadway Heck, and I tried to get my parents to let me travel several hundred miles to hear him. Isaac ----- Original Message ----- From: "alan partis" Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Saving Live Broadway > I agree that live performances cannot be beat for sound and experience > quality, there are so many factors that can quickly send it down the toilet > that for my money, with advancing technology the recording is often a > better bet (which is easy to for me to say since I'm now trying to justify > in my mind why I opted not to drive 75 minutes up the road to Cincinnati > this weekend to see Christian Lindberg live -- that's one decision that I > may regret). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:47:23 -0500 From: Jim Gayfer Subject: Christian Lindberg I was fortunate to hear him play when I was in Australia a number of years ago. He just happened to be playing in Canberra the same time I was there. The first note he played was a 3rd line D at about mp. I was sitting in the front row and that first note was worth the price of admission right there -- what tone production!! Jim -----Original Message----- From: Isaac J. Roorda [mailto:tubaman@IOWATELECOM.NET] Sent: February 05, 2003 1:34 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Saving Live Broadway Heck, and I tried to get my parents to let me travel several hundred miles to hear him. Isaac ----- Original Message ----- From: "alan partis" Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Saving Live Broadway > I agree that live performances cannot be beat for sound and experience > quality, there are so many factors that can quickly send it down the toilet > that for my money, with advancing technology the recording is often a > better bet (which is easy to for me to say since I'm now trying to justify > in my mind why I opted not to drive 75 minutes up the road to Cincinnati > this weekend to see Christian Lindberg live -- that's one decision that I > may regret). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 15:37:32 -0800 From: Tom Izzo Subject: Re: Wednesday Humor - Gilbert & Sullivan CHRISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!! UGH! Go back to practicing what you best! :-) LOL Tom --- Chris Waage wrote: that Messrs. > Gilbert and Sullivan's > next work will be . . . 'The Pie Riots of Penn's Aunts.'" ===== Tom Izzo Principal Trombonist, Bristol Renaissance Faire Bass Trombonist, West Suburban Symphony Orchestra Alto/Tenor/Bass/Contrabass Trombones, Tubas, Bass Trumpet, Euphonium, Electric Bass, Percussion http://www.Geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/7875/ (630) 983-1985 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:09:51 -0500 From: DSlide13@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Saving Live Broadway In a message dated 2/5/2003 1:16:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, alan@PARTIS.COM writes: > Being a member of the general public (albeit a more musical than average > one) that buys concert tickets, I agree that many of us do know the > difference, but there are still plenty of reasons I sometimes prefer > pre-recorded CDs to live performances. > > As Sam pointed out the other day, and I agree with him on this, nothing > matches the experience/sound of a live performance, but he also listed a > whole bunch of caveats: get the right seat in the auditorium/club, the > quality of the sound system and the engineer running it, etc. I would also > add personal preference to the list and a whole bunch of other > people-factors like having a good crowd that is appreciative and has proper > manners, etc. > > With a CD in my living room, at the very least, depending on the quality of > my stereo and speakers, I can hear almost what the recording engineer > intended me to hear (which is hopefully the result of a collaboration with > the musician in the studio), sit in my favorite chair, and put the volume > where it works best for me. And unless I'm willing to shell out $200 a > seat or more, I'm never going to have great seats to see Billy Joel, or > Sting, and even if I did, I'd have to hope that somehow the ugly acoustics > of the cavernous arena could be overcome and that the sound man and I both > like a little less bass and on and on. With a CD, I can be much more > confident that I am likely to enjoy the listening experience, even with > it's degraded sound. > > Even when I have attended concerts at more music-friendly venues like the > Kravis Center in Palm Beach or the Cerritos Performing Arts Center outside > L.A. to see people like Diane Schuur (who is an outstanding performer) > there are always little distractions from others in the audience who just > don't know concert etiquette that can detract from the experience. So, > defects in sound in digital reproductions or not, again, the CD while not > the real thing, can certainly help me re-live the feelings from the live > performance. > > I agree that live performances cannot be beat for sound and experience > quality, there are so many factors that can quickly send it down the toilet > that for my money, with advancing technology the recording is often a > better bet (which is easy to for me to say since I'm now trying to justify > in my mind why I opted not to drive 75 minutes up the road to Cincinnati > this weekend to see Christian Lindberg live -- that's one > decision that I > may regret). > > > ______________________________________ > alan partis, amateur bonehead > louisville, ky Okay already, Alan. It's sounds like your looking for reasons to disagree when in essence we agree. And, the general public does too. They just don't realize that they agree in most cases. They know what they're taught by big business, but they know that seeing a band live is special. If someone offered you tickets to Sting or Billy Joel, no matter how bad the seats, you'd probably take them. You'd want to "see" them live. That has nothing to do with the sound. You'd want to be a part of the energy. It just seems like your trying to hard to find the negative here. We agree...don't we? It doesn't have to be so difficult. Sometimes you see a dissappointing show. So what?! How many bad cd's have you bought? Probably more than the number of bad shows you've seen. That's just a guess. David Gibson ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 4 Feb 2003 to 5 Feb 2003 (#2003-36) **************************************************************