Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 1 Feb 2003 to 2 Feb 2003 (#2003-33) Date: Monday, February 3, 2003 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 30 messages totalling 1248 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Testosterone Replacement Therapy (2) 2. Cherry Classics CD-ROM upgrade notice 3. What Site? (4) 4. Chinese instruments (11) 5. Saving Live Broadway (5) 6. Looking for a dual bore 88h slide .525/.547 7. scores (2) 8. Miles Tonight 9. Saving Live Broadway/live music/music 10. used horns for sale 11. Chemical help ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 22:37:43 -0800 From: Galen McQuarrie Subject: Re: Testosterone Replacement Therapy Jeff-- I am a specialist in Internal Medicine with about 35years of practice experience. I would like to answer your questions and put this into perspective for you and the list. I am familiar with Testosterone replacement, and have used it, but only on men who's testosterone levels are definitely decreased, hypogonadal. In the case of us older folks "buffing up", It would not be a wise addition. I have only been back on the trombone seriously for about a year, and my chops are better now than they ever were in high-school and college ( the last time that I seriously played) when I didn't have a decent practice routine. I'm 62 and a half. and I'll readily admit that I don't really have the stamina or strength that I used to, as far as physical activity is concerned, but that goes with the territory. The flip side is that my life view and fund of knowledge and WISDOM is a quantum leap ahead of when I was younger. I don't see that Testosterone replacement has any advantage as far as breathing endurance, embouchure or any aspect of wind instrument playing. It has SIGNIFICANT side effects e. g. liver problems, accelerating arteriosclerosis, and increasing prostate hypertrophy, gonadal atrophy, And, if you should have a prostate cancer that is quiescent, it will grow like crazy. TRT has its place (usually in much younger individuals), but I won't be taking it. There are many Trombonists that are older even than I and have wonderful chops. I heard Dick Nash on a movie soundtrack album playing beautifully in the upper register, (He is in his 70's now and was at least 65 then.) Bill Watrous is almost a year older than I am now and still very active as a professional) There is also George Roberts, Slide Hampton, and many others. This is my perspective, and I hope helps. Galen McQuarrie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 00:09:09 -0800 From: Gordon Cherry Subject: Cherry Classics CD-ROM upgrade notice Hello fellow Low Brass players, Just a short message from Cherry Classics Music to let you know how we are coming along on the free upgrade to the "Complete Low Brass Excerpt Collection" CD-Rom. We were expecting to release the free upgrade sometime today, however, our server has crashed unexpectedly (when do these things ever happen when you are prepared for them). It will take us a few days to sort things out at our end in order to get them working perfectly again. After the crash of our server there were 3 web orders that have now been lost forever in cyberspace. If you happen to know of these persons, please let them contact us at the email address above. We regret the delay, but just want you to know that you will be receiving over 25 brand new sets of complete low brass parts (public domain) to some very exciting works, such as Mahler Symphony #7, Bruckner Symphony #1,2 & 3, the opera Aida complete, the ballet Nutcracker complete, Vaughan Williams Symphony #2 (The London), Mozart Vespers, and much more. We have more works coming to you again later this year for upgrade #2. As always if you have public domain works that are not on our list, we do hope you will take us up on our offer to exchange your low brass parts for a healthy remuneration from us. If you do need to get in touch with us, please use the above email address until you hear from us again. By that time, we should be up and running. Thank you for your support, our CD-ROM is being sold all over the world now and is making the rounds at trombone and tuba workshops and clinics. Best wishes, Gordon Cherry Cherry Classics Music Principal Trombone, Vancouver Symphony ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 06:51:03 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: What Site? >At 9:30 AM -0400 2/1/03, sabutin wrote: >> >> There is no movement afoot to replace opera orchestras >>w/synthsesizers, nor symphony orchestras either. > >Actually, the first time I heard about the conductor and machine >setup it was being applied to a touring opera company or at least >being proposed for that use. The stated goal was to lower costs and >provide more jobs for singers. > >I agree that Broadway is not all it used to be, but appeasement is a >dangerous policy. > >Andy ============ Well, in some respects B'way is better than it used to be....it pays better, musicians are allowed more time off and the musicianship is certainly higher than it was in the '60s, '70s and '80s because many of the people who would be doing primarily studio work if the studio scene was thriving are now playing on B'way. Also...what do you mean by "appeasement"? S. -- (Sam Burtis, author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at [still under construction], email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. By appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 14:32:17 -0000 From: Keith Marr Subject: Chinese instruments There's another Chinese bass trombone on ebay UK for £250. It looks very much like a German style instrument. There have been many warnings on this list about them and as a result I wouldn't buy one, but can anyone tell me what it is about them that is the problem. The design looks okay, is it cheap materials, poor construction, or both? Has anyone actually any playing experience of them? Keith in Bb/F/D www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Are you still wasting your time with spam?... There is a solution!" Protected by Yaga Company's SpamHunter 3.2 The most powerful anti-spam software available. http://www.junkfighter.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 09:54:35 -0500 From: "Paul D. Kemp Jr." Subject: Saving Live Broadway Dear List, This will more than likely be a little long, so please bear with me. This is a very important issue that affects, either directly or indirectly, everyone on this list: in fact it affects all professional musicians everywhere. The technology now exists that allows for the replacement of the live musicians by having virtual musicians that are controlled by the lighted baton of the conductor. The recording industry has already suffered a major blow with the sophistication of the electronic keyboards that can produce very convincing sampled sounds. However, when you listen to a live violin and then listen to a sampled sound, the difference in the sound is STRIKING. Every string instrument on the planet is different, just like every trombone on the planet is different, just like every piano on the planet is different. That's what makes the music INDIVIDUAL and UNIQUE----every musician that is serious about the art form is trying to express themselves with their own individual voice. We combine those voices together to form ensembles. Having said that, I have personally had a few things happen to me recently that strike at the heart of this matter. I have thought about producing a solo piano CD of Gospel songs. I feel that I now have the experience to do a very respectable job (after playing the music of this idiom for over 30 years). However, if I do it, it will be a rather expensive adventure, because I would insist on using an acoustic piano, in other words, a real grand piano, not a Roland electronic piano or a Kurzweil. I could do it for a fraction of the price if I did use a Roland instrument. So, if I want to do this and remain true to myself and my convictions, I will have to save the money and go into a studio and do it on a real piano, or perhaps find a great sponsor that will pay for the entire project, or not do it at all. I recently resigned a position as the pianist of a small Presbyterian church. The pastor, who knows absolutely nothing about music, said that I wasn't playing the songs for the worship service the way that he wanted them played, and then had the audacity to tell me that I had screwed up 2 of the songs up that he had chosen the last Sunday that I played at that church. That was the straw that broke the camel's back. For the past couple of weeks, the church has been using accompaniment tracks to accompany the congregational singing. There is no special music at all, no choir (it is a very small church). He has gotten way out of his area of expertise because in reality, he is an idiot. He went so far as to tell me that electronic music would be used in addition to me playing the piano there, and he doesn't understand that I have been fighting against this for better than 20 years. Never, in my wildest imagination, did I ever remotely conceive that I would ever be replaced by taped (canned) music. Friends and colleagues, I have been working at this craft of mine since 1969. All of a sudden, I have a non-musician tell me that my artistry is no longer valued, nor is it needed. The ironic thing about this whole situation is that before I went to that church to play, the church had been using accompaniment tracks because they couldn't find a qualified musician that they could afford. I was, in essence, donating my services to the church. The congregation loved it, but the pastor proved to be impossible to work with. I have been in touch with a couple of the list members privately about this, and the only consolation about this whole matter is that I don't need to play music for a church in order to satisfy my musical appetites. I am versatile in many types of music, and I am so thankful that I haven't put all of my eggs in one basket. If this trend is allowed to continue, what will eventually happen is that it will no longer be necessary to have arts of any type in our schools at all. This is already happening in many parts of the country. The arts, whether it be literature, music, art, dance, or whatever, are absolutely ESSENTIAL to help the students in our schools to become individual, expressive human beings. Even if they never become professionals, they can develop into our patrons of the future, and this is just as important (if not more important) as turning out artists. I would challenge all of you to do a couple of things. While I believe that recordings are important, support live music, wherever you are. Go to concerts of the musics that you enjoy. Here's another story that I'll share at this point. My wife and I were married in 1989. I took her to Chicago on our honeymoon, and we went to Ravinia Park twice that week. The night before we left to fly home, we saw the Chicago Symphony Orchestra play Pictures at an Exhibition. I have 2 recordings of this orchestra doing that work, and friends, that live performance will always stick in my mind as the one of the highlights of my life. Folks, no matter how spectacular the recording, there's NOTHING LIKE GOING TO HEAR IT LIVE. I also had the opportunity to hear Sarah Vaughn and Ramsey Lewis on the same stage 2 nights earlier. That was several months before Sarah died. She was magnificent to say the least. I've also seen the Boston Pops Orchestra live at Tanglewood. They were absolutely spectacular. I've heard the Atlanta Symphony live, the Minnesota Orchestra live, and I've even heard our own orchestra here in Chattanooga live when I wasn't on stage. As the opportunities present themselves, I frequent the local jazz club here in Chattanooga as well. But, get out and hear it live. It will change your life. Incidentally, our government supports live music by funding military music groups of all types, and you would be amiss not to support this with your presence if you can. These groups are of the highest caliber, and it's FREE---well not really, but your tax dollars are paying for it, so see what you're getting for your money. Secondly, sign this petition to save live Broadway. If I ever get up to New York, I'll pay whatever it costs in order to see a show on Broadway. I've done a little bit of Broadway, and those musicians are absolutely world class. It's some of the toughest stuff you'll ever see. Also, consider this: Without musicians, you erase the need for composers, orchestrators, and conductors. In addition, by supporting our artists in this way, we are ensuring that there will be work for the future artists that decide to make professional music their life's work. You will be supporting this idea that art of all types is indeed VITAL to our culture. Here is the website: http://www.savelivebroadway.com It is a very well done site, and you need to see everything on it. But most importantly sign the petition. I hope that all of you have a blessed Lord's Day. Cordially, Paul Kemp Chattanooga Symphony www.trbnplyr.com --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.445 / Virus Database: 250 - Release Date: 1/21/2003 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 10:37:06 -0500 From: Denver Seifried Subject: Re: Saving Live Broadway Paul, Thanks for sharing you latest "live" experience with us, on the list. You really have some well written thoughts, as you always do, on the list and sorry that your congregation lost a fine musician! Denny Seifried Bass Trombone-Springfield (OH) Symphony & Dayton Jazz Orchestra Adjunct Trombone-Wittenberg Univ. Dept. of Music ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 10:35:11 -0600 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Looking for a dual bore 88h slide .525/.547 anybody got a dually up for grabs ????????????????? another idea might be -a tight leadpipe -until Ermuel Navarro wrote: > hey dj hope everything is well. Seems like your #1 hook up when it > comes to equipment! I was wondering if you have, or know anyone who > has a dual bore 88h slide, that they would be willing to trade for an > 88h .547 slide...brand new inners! I just got them put in December, > but now i want something a little bit closer to my 3b...know anyone > with a dual bore, looking for a .547!?!?!? Peace out bro...let me know > if you hear or know anything! Ermuelito ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 09:31:12 -0700 From: Danielle Chollet Subject: Re: Chinese instruments Keith Marr wrote: > There's another Chinese bass trombone on ebay UK for £250. It looks very > much like a German style instrument. There have been many warnings on this > list about them and as a result I wouldn't buy one, but can anyone tell me > what it is about them that is the problem. > > The design looks okay, is it cheap materials, poor construction, or both? > Has anyone actually any playing experience of them? > > Keith in Bb/F/D Keith, with the two junk horns I have seen and played (a Mirage trombone and a BbongBbong trumpet, haha), the instruments actually did not have a normal overtone series. You could play a decent low Bb, but trying to play a middle Bb in 1st position worked just as well as trying to play a Bb in 2nd, third, or fourth positions. You get the picture, I'm sure. And little kids were trying to play these things, I think it's better for the kid not to play at all than to play on something this bad and come to hate music. I'm not sure if it's the materials or construction or just a bad design, but the end result is awful. And I also know that most repair shops refuse to work on these things, because of their non-standard construction and unavailability of parts. Give them another 10 years or so and some brands are sure to have worked through the problems. Others won't even bother, they'll just keep making junk as long as somebody overseas will buy it cause it's cheaper than a real horn. Hope this helps, Danielle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 12:06:43 -0500 From: Alan Partis Subject: Re: Saving Live Broadway Paul (and others who have urged us to visit/support savelivebroadway.com), As always, your contributions to this list are lucid and well thought out= and with regard to technique and musicianship have been personally helpful.= However, on the issue of saving live Broadway, I have a somewhat different= viewpoint. We live in a capitalist society and Broadway is just another= commercial enterprise, no different from GM or IBM. So, with an eye toward= the bottom line, the business executives are experimenting with ways to= reduce costs and increase profits at the expense of labor. This is nothing= new in our society and hasn't brought anything to an end other than buggy= whip manufacturing (and that's no longer needed anyway). And it won't= bring about the end of music; nothing ever will -- music is an integral= part of the human condition. Can you imagine human life w/o music? No= humming, no whistling, no singing? Music will never die. That's a given. With regard to Broadway, it remains to be seen if this will result in the= elimination of jobs for some or all musicians in that business. The key= here is the profit motive of the business. If audiences show up in fewer= numbers, or refuse to pay obscenely high ticket prices for shows w/o live= musicians, then the business will rush out to hire more musicians. If not,= then the audiences are getting just what they want, or are willing to= accept. Either way, it cannot bring about the end of music or artists --= it may only serve to show how much the general Broadway-patronizing public= values live music. People who wish to make music are just as welcome to= make it as before, it's just that there may be fewer jobs for people who= wish to be strictly professional musicians. [On an interesting side= thought: what percentage of the population were strictly professional= musicians during the Renaissance period versus today?] Sam Burtis has said= repeatedly here that professional musicians, if they wish to remain so= employed, must find ways to be versatile and adaptable (or words to that= effect). In my opinion, Sam is right (not that he needs my endorsement). So, I suggest, your beef is not with the folks who run Broadway, but with= the consumer. In my few months on this list, I have seen this as a very= common theme: not enough people attend symphony concerts, jazz clubs are= dying, etc. The common gripe is to fault management, ownership, directors,= and so on. Some have even blamed the Canadian Brass for pandering to the= consumer to put on a show and thus have changed the nature of brass= quintets. No one seems to want to 'blame' the consumer/listening public= though they retain sole control (albeit indirect control) over what gets= produced. I propose that the solution is to win over the hearts and minds of the= public. To do this, all of us who are of a like mind, need to put our= energies there: raise the bar of professionalism, produce music that is so= outstanding and universally enjoyed such that reproductions and 'reasonable= facsimiles' are no longer accepted. Teach as many children and young= adults as possible. Show people the enjoyment of music and its personal= benefit to their lives. I suspect that I'm preaching to the choir here as= many on this list are already doing just that. There was a time in this country when people came out in droves to hear live= music. In their days, places like Eastman Theater and other small venues= in the Catskills and the Poconos thrived with life. But then the choices= for entertainment were more limited than they are now. Today, Hollywood= and professional sports have grabbed the audiences and we now have movie= theaters with unprecedented comforts and technology and more teams and= leagues than ever before. But I promise you, if you create the demand in= the consumer for more live music, the orchestra pits will be bursting at= the seams. Simply demanding that producers provide more spots just won't= do any long-term good. Personally I think it's a losing battle all the way= around. __________________________________________________ alan partis, amateur bonehead louisville, ky =20 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 12:40:13 -0600 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Re: Chinese instruments for 250 pounds you can get a real bass bone -a used veteran i fixed clanky valve on a laffy ette trumpet -very crude threading on valve caps etc bessons from 1900 were much better built dont waste your time drooling over trick photography ----------a used conn 72h -------an olds king 5b or go ahead and buy it ---but dont come crying to momma and daddy ------this bone is junk bbbbbbbbbbbbb cause we done told you son dont buy no junk !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Danielle Chollet wrote: > Keith Marr wrote: > > There's another Chinese bass trombone on ebay UK for £250. It looks very > > much like a German style instrument. There have been many warnings on this > > list about them and as a result I wouldn't buy one, but can anyone tell me > > what it is about them that is the problem. > > > > The design looks okay, is it cheap materials, poor construction, or both? > > Has anyone actually any playing experience of them? > > > > Keith in Bb/F/D > > Keith, with the two junk horns I have seen and played (a Mirage trombone > and a BbongBbong trumpet, haha), the instruments actually did not have a > normal overtone series. You could play a decent low Bb, but trying to > play a middle Bb in 1st position worked just as well as trying to play a > Bb in 2nd, third, or fourth positions. You get the picture, I'm sure. > And little kids were trying to play these things, I think it's better > for the kid not to play at all than to play on something this bad and > come to hate music. > > I'm not sure if it's the materials or construction or just a bad design, > but the end result is awful. And I also know that most repair shops > refuse to work on these things, because of their non-standard > construction and unavailability of parts. Give them another 10 years or > so and some brands are sure to have worked through the problems. Others > won't even bother, they'll just keep making junk as long as somebody > overseas will buy it cause it's cheaper than a real horn. > > Hope this helps, > Danielle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 12:40:45 -0600 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Re: Chinese instruments jupiter is not too bad --exception ----- Danielle Chollet wrote: > Keith Marr wrote: > > There's another Chinese bass trombone on ebay UK for £250. It looks very > > much like a German style instrument. There have been many warnings on this > > list about them and as a result I wouldn't buy one, but can anyone tell me > > what it is about them that is the problem. > > > > The design looks okay, is it cheap materials, poor construction, or both? > > Has anyone actually any playing experience of them? > > > > Keith in Bb/F/D > > Keith, with the two junk horns I have seen and played (a Mirage trombone > and a BbongBbong trumpet, haha), the instruments actually did not have a > normal overtone series. You could play a decent low Bb, but trying to > play a middle Bb in 1st position worked just as well as trying to play a > Bb in 2nd, third, or fourth positions. You get the picture, I'm sure. > And little kids were trying to play these things, I think it's better > for the kid not to play at all than to play on something this bad and > come to hate music. > > I'm not sure if it's the materials or construction or just a bad design, > but the end result is awful. And I also know that most repair shops > refuse to work on these things, because of their non-standard > construction and unavailability of parts. Give them another 10 years or > so and some brands are sure to have worked through the problems. Others > won't even bother, they'll just keep making junk as long as somebody > overseas will buy it cause it's cheaper than a real horn. > > Hope this helps, > Danielle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 09:51:12 -0800 From: Randy Fendrick Subject: Saving Live Broadway > The arts, > whether it be literature, music, art, dance, or whatever, are > absolutely > ESSENTIAL to help the students in our schools to become individual, > expressive human beings. Even if they never become professionals, they > can > develop into our patrons of the future, and this is just as important > (if > not more important) as turning out artists. I would agree with Paul's comments and would stress that we must keep the arts in our schools as we are not really training the professionals of the future but are training the audience. If we don't have the audience to pay the freight, so to speak, we won't need the artists. We see that with Symphony orchestras, we see it with jazz, we see it in Civic Light Operas. Today a kid with a boom box can write lyrics, deliver it in a syncopated style and the record industry calls it music. Why, because the public, or rather the audience does not know any better. As a retired teacher, the administrators that I had the most support from were people who had music somewhere in their background. They may have played third clarinet, or that thing with the slide but, there was an understanding of the importance of the arts. This was not necessarily true of many "jocks' or people who did not have that kind of experience. Cheers Randy Fendrick Southside Chicago Seven Bakersfield Symphony Orchestra > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 13:08:13 -0500 From: Alan Partis Subject: Re: Saving Live Broadway At 12:51 PM 02/02/03, you wrote: >I would agree with Paul's comments and would stress that we must keep >the arts in our schools as we are not really training the professionals >of the future but are training the audience. Absolutely. I would take it beyond the school system and suggest that music appreciation and education be offered outside of school systems if schools can't/won't provide it. And if necessary, should be offered for free if volunteer instructors can be found and a venue secured. __________________________________________________ alan partis, amateur bonehead louisville, ky ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 11:37:38 -0800 From: "James W. Yardley" Subject: scores Hello list. I'm searching for scores for a music history assignment and I'm having a really difficult time finding what I'm looking for. I'm wondering if there are standard catalogs/publishers/websites you go to when looking for scores. I've checked Amazon, Hickeys, and other retailers and couldn't find anything. Thanks for your help. Mandatory trombone content; The sooner I get this assignment done the sooner I can go practice my trombone. Take care, James ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 19:51:17 -0000 From: Keith Marr Subject: Re: Chinese instruments Jupiter is not Chinese, it's Taiwanese with US management. Subtle difference? Not really, there is a wealth of difference. These are good instruments. I use the 636L in orchestral work, and it's really good. My only beef is a clanky trigger linkage which I intend to replace with a minibal system sometime. There is a tendency to lump Jupiter into discussions about "Chinese rubbish on eBay", which I feel is mistaken. When I was a student in the 1970s folk then were very snobby about a far eastern manufacturer who had just brought stuff onto the market and asked us students to be suspicious of the low prices. That manufacturer? Yamaha. Keith in Bb/F/D ----- Original Message ----- jupiter is not too bad --exception ----- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 12:19:51 -0800 From: Andrew Michael Subject: Re: What Site? >>At 9:30 AM -0400 2/1/03, sabutin wrote: > > Well, in some respects B'way is better than it used to be....it >pays better, musicians are allowed more time off and the >musicianship is certainly higher than it was in the '60s, '70s and >'80s because many of the people who would be doing primarily studio >work if the studio scene was thriving are now playing on B'way. That's good to know there is something good. > > Also...what do you mean by "appeasement"? > If by some chance these synthesized music systems did work on Broadway, it would probably increase attempts to use them elsewhere (small opera companies, ballet). So, fighting it on Broadway, even if one despairs at the current climate there, seems worthwhile. By appeasement I meant the idea that we could give the producers free run on Broadway and then assume they will leave the good stuff alone. Andy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 15:32:00 -0500 From: Bill Redgate Subject: Re: Chinese instruments Keith; As one who tried those early Yamahas, I can tell you they WERE junk. Perhaps they were not the level of junk that we are discussing here but they played horribly. Which, of course, points out the hopeful part of this entire discussion. There exists a chance that in 20 years these Chinese manufacturers will be producing horns suitable for the mainstream musician. Of course, I still think I'll wait. Playing those early Yamaha trombones put me off of anything Yamaha up until this past spring. I tried a Yamaha euphonium at the International Tuba and Euphonium Conference in Greensboro, NC and it was very possibly the sweetest euphonium I have ever played. So, there is hope. Bill Redgate Atlanta, Georgia -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Keith Marr Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 14:51 To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Chinese instruments Jupiter is not Chinese, it's Taiwanese with US management. Subtle difference? Not really, there is a wealth of difference. These are good instruments. I use the 636L in orchestral work, and it's really good. My only beef is a clanky trigger linkage which I intend to replace with a minibal system sometime. There is a tendency to lump Jupiter into discussions about "Chinese rubbish on eBay", which I feel is mistaken. When I was a student in the 1970s folk then were very snobby about a far eastern manufacturer who had just brought stuff onto the market and asked us students to be suspicious of the low prices. That manufacturer? Yamaha. Keith in Bb/F/D ----- Original Message ----- jupiter is not too bad --exception ----- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 15:45:43 -0500 From: David Buckley Subject: Re: Testosterone Replacement Therapy If this becomes popular, the band contesting movement will have to demand urine tests at contests. Dave - 71- and no hormone replacement yet- Buckley. "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" wrote: > On Sat, 1 Feb 2003, Jeff Oien wrote: > > > As someone who was into competitive powerlifting I marveled > > Have you competed against Jack Robinson? I heard tell he was an over-50 > power lifting champion. > > > But on the off chance anyone has undergone this and would be > > willing to talk about it, that would be interesting to hear if it improved > > your endurance and strength. Or maybe the muscles in the face > > One of the euphonium players in my brass band was using testosterone > patches a few years ago. I don't know if he's still using them. I haven't > noticed that he's looking any more buff, and he's not as aggressive as the > women in the section... He's also twice your age. > > The NPR program > > > Sorry for all the words. I'm not meaning to start an ethical debate > > I don't think you'll stir up any upset about male hormone replacement > therapy. I don't know where testosterone for that purpose comes > from--unlike estrogen, which is collected from pregnant mare urine. > > Carole Nowicke > cnowicke@indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 16:01:43 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo Subject: Re: scores The Dover series of scores are affordable and readable, well bound and very useful, if not the most up to date editions of every composer (they publish editions which are public domain, so you do not get the most recent editions of the Mahler and Bruckner societies, for instance). They are available from any music dealer, the prices are the same everywhere, I've never seen discounting on Dover scores although you may find discounts if you look hard enough. Hickeys has a whole section of orchestra scores, including the Dover line - go to their website (http://www.hickeys.com) and click on the "orchestral scores" link on the left hand side of the page. Amazon has them too, but you have to search harder for them. The Edwin F. Kalmus website also sells thousands of scores, again, only things which are PD or they have bought rights to. They were pirates for years, and are not everybody's favorite publisher of principle, but they have a lot of material. A good thing about their site is you can search for things and get the instrumentation - handy if you want to know if you're needed in that obscure overture being played by your orchestra in 2 months time. Go to http://www.kalmus-music.com/ There are some full scores online, an experimental resource at Indiana University: http://www.dlib.indiana.edu/variations/scores/symphonic.html This ought to give you a good start! -Doug Yeo -- Douglas Yeo Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra Music Director, The New England Brass Band dyeo@rcn.com /// yeo@yeodoug.com http://www.yeodoug.com <>< ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 15:05:54 -0600 From: Bill Dinwiddie Subject: Miles Tonight Anyone who has cable TV and receives the "Bravo" network is in for a treat tonight. Starting at 8:00 PM (Central Time)is a 2-hour special titled "The Miles Davis Story", friends and colleagues discuss the jazz trumpeter. I haven't seen this program, but it promises to be well worth watching. I cannot be sure if this program is being shown on this date and time in all areas of the U.S. Consult your TV Guide. Enjoy, Bill Dinwiddie bill752d@attbi.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 16:41:36 -0500 From: DSlide13@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Saving Live Broadway/live music/music In a message dated 2/2/2003 12:06:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, alan@PARTIS.COM writes: > Can you imagine human life w/o music? No humming, no > whistling, no singing? Music will never die. That's a given. I'm not so sure that I agree with your optimistic take. The problem is that the human element is so integral to the quality of the product. What business is trying to do is eliminate the human element. That is inherently detrimental to any art. In health care, doctors "practice" medicine. That is to say that two doctors could look at all of the symptoms and come to different conclusions. That's because patients are all different. What would you think of eliminating the human element from medicine. HMO's are trying, but I think the pendulum is starting to swing back the other way. Just as patients are all different, so are audiences. The human element is at work when a "live" performer interacts with their audience. That interaction will be different every time. If business succeeds in reducing musicians time and again, the music will die, because it won't be speaking to audiences. Then live music will die, and we'll be left with a bunch of computer technicians manipulating digital samples of past musicians. The sad thing is that much of the music we hear now is exactly that, and most people have no clue. The computer techs are already programming us. David Gibson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 16:51:41 EST From: SFTrombone@AOL.COM Subject: used horns for sale I have several used horns for sale: Conn 30H circa 1937, in great shape, all original lacquer intact, some lacquer wear on neckpipe and part of one outer slide tube, perfect plating on inner slide, original case, original warranty card, .497/.509 bore, 7" bell, no mouthpiece, $600 plus shipping. Conn 10H circa 1952 .500" brass slide with brass outer sleeves, bright copper 8" bell, some scarring from dent removal on bell and neck pipe, some lacquer loss, could use a slide tune up, though it is playable as is, slide action would rate a B+, two small points of plating wear on inner stocking, in old Conn case, but probably not the original case for this horn, this is essentially a 6H with the "caprion" bell $475 as is or $525 and I'll have the slide action perfected locally. King 3B Silversonic circa 1953 .508" nickel slide, sterling silver bell, some lacquer loss on bell (could be polished), neckpipe and tuning slide, perfect slide action, removable lead pipe, hard case $1000 Pictures of all three horns are here: http://members.aol.com/fergusonmusic4/usedhorns.htm Steve Ferguson Los Angeles 818 951 9598 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 17:11:35 -0500 From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" Subject: Chemical help On Sun, 2 Feb 2003, David Buckley wrote: > If this becomes popular, the band contesting movement will have to demand urine > tests at contests. How about urine tests for betablockers? Carole cnowicke@indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 18:27:59 -0500 From: Steve Beck Subject: Re: Chinese instruments From: "D.J. Kennedy" > for 250 pounds you can get a real bass bone Well sure, but 250 pounds is an awful lot to hold for a whole song. I'm not sure an Ergobone could that much weight. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 19:09:44 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: What Site? >>>At 9:30 AM -0400 2/1/03, sabutin wrote: >> >> Well, in some respects B'way is better than it used to be....it >>pays better, musicians are allowed more time off and the >>musicianship is certainly higher than it was in the '60s, '70s and >>'80s because many of the people who would be doing primarily studio >>work if the studio scene was thriving are now playing on B'way. > >That's good to know there is something good. > >> >> Also...what do you mean by "appeasement"? >> > >If by some chance these synthesized music systems did work on >Broadway, it would probably increase attempts to use them elsewhere >(small opera companies, ballet). So, fighting it on Broadway, even >if one despairs at the current climate there, seems worthwhile. By >appeasement I meant the idea that we could give the producers free >run on Broadway and then assume they will leave the good stuff alone. > >Andy ============= Yes, that is quite a good point. I am hardly against fighting the producers. Literally hundreds of my best friends would be out of work if that ever came to pass, people w/families, mortgages, etc. whose lives are to some degree based on the assumed foreverness of musical B'way, However, I foresaw something like this happening 20 years ago, when the studio scene began to dry up, and made my own decision to pursue other, less replaceable areas of music based at least partially on this idea. (It helped that those areas were much more fun, too, of course...latin playing, jazz repertory orchestras, great contemporary big bands, writing, teaching...) In conversations w/others I repeatedly told them the same things at the time, and now I am telling whoever will listen today...be careful about basing your career on some skill that is replaceable by a machine. I don't care if you are John Henry the Steel Drivin' Man or Joe Blow the B'way Reed Doubler...you WILL be replaced eventually if it is at all technologically possible. Even so powerful a union as the United Auto Workers has had to learn this lesson. Steel unions too. The hard way. (Check out Gary, Indiana some time.) But automated truck drivers...I don't think so, and the Teamsters are as powerful as ever as a result. Individual musicians, the American Federation of Musicians, steel workers, big labor...all fall in the face of technology. That's the way it works. Sorry. There has been a parallel thread here on the trombone-l about the Musicians Protective Trust Funds and their supposed financial woes...same thing happening on another level. Those funds depend on the money from recorded music to help musicians; recorded music is being damaged financially by technological advances on all sides, and as a result of that dependence the MPTF suffers. If instead of depending so much on Big Recording for money (labor issue) the union had instead demanded musical excellence in their MPTF system (musical issue...y'gotta admit, most MPTF gigs go to mediocre ensembles at best; at least that's the case in NYC) then the performances would have generated their OWN money and further work as well, and over the 50 years or so it's been happening (I guess 50...30+ that I know about) the MPTF would be a self-sustaining entity that truly "promotes live music"...GREAT live music, which is the only kind you CAN promote, really...instead of a semi-charity dependent upon the largesse (extorted largesse, as in "Give or we strike") of Big Business. They say charity begins at ho=me. Well, charity ENDS when money gets short. Do not rely on the A.F.of M to solve this problem. It is puny compared to the UAW and steel unions and they could not. They fought a rear guard action that effectively slowed the process down (at the ultimate expense of American automobile and steel manufacturers, by the way, who have lost their dominant position in the world's markets to a large degree BECAUSE of labor troubles, featherbedding etc.), but they could not stop it. So it goes. The valiant efforts of the A F.of M. in NYC to stem the falling tide of recording out of the city were ineffective 25 years ago...technology again; why spend $100,000 to get a record made w/NY musicians when the technology to get nearly as good a product now exists in Bulgaria (or Chicago or Topeka or Singapore)for $30,000?...and they will not be able to do much more than delay the inevitable if indeed the technology is developed that works well enough to do the B'way musicians' job cheaper w/out losing audience. If the A.F.of M. REALLY wanted to do something, they would apply musical considerations to it and produce their OWN shows. Better. But they cannot/will not do that on any level. (Labor laws, shortsightedness on the part of union officials...) I spoke to the first good president of the NY local 25 years ago about this general idea...Johnny Glasel, a fine jazz trumpet player who led the move to open Local 802 up from its graft ridden past...that the union should promote music from a MUSICAL point of view, open a jazz club, give concerts under its own aegis, etc., and although he agreed w/me in theory he said it was impossible. I'm not much of an organization man/politician, so I never pursued it myself to any great degree...too busy making music and that effort would be a lifework all by itself...but that is the ONLY way that the union can really affect this movement away from live players. They can delay, but the ultimate result is inevitable. In purely commercial matters, technology wins. Business does not care how noble John Henry was; if "He lay down his head and died died died" after beating the steam drill, he was worth nothing to them. Burial fees and a minor bump in the road. Like I said...so it goes. Pursue the unreplaceable. Gotta go warm up to play w/Chico O'Farrill's Band now. Unreplaceable. (as long as I play well enough...a whole 'nother matter.) Later... S. -- (Sam Burtis, author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at [still under construction], email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. By appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 18:44:23 -0600 From: Eric & Candice Swanson Subject: Re: Chinese instruments Keith Marr wrote: > Jupiter is not Chinese, it's Taiwanese with US management. Subtle > difference? Not really, there is a wealth of difference. These are good > instruments. I use the 636L in orchestral work, and it's really good. > .......... Hey Keith, I noticed that Jupiter now has a bass trombone for sale. Have you or anybody played one yet? Brasswind price of $1395 (US) for a new double valve bass trombone. I'm wondering how it plays and how is the slide. Just curious, Eric Swanson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 17:21:42 -0800 From: Andrew Michael Subject: Re: What Site? At 7:09 PM -0400 2/2/03, sabutin wrote: > In conversations w/others I repeatedly told them the same things >at the time, and now I am telling whoever will listen today...be >careful about basing your career on some skill that is replaceable by >a machine. Certainly a worthwhile point. People, unfortunately, have a hard time imagining what the future will bring (P.B. Medawar wrote about this quite a while ago). > > I don't care if you are John Henry the Steel Drivin' Man or Joe >Blow the B'way Reed Doubler...you WILL be replaced eventually if it >is at all technologically possible. I guess the fortunate thing in science is that while technology and scientific advances go forward we manage to define our jobs in terms of the next generation of advances. The sorts of studies that used to get you a Ph.D. might now do no better than a Masters or fulfill a B.S. senior thesis. Some of these things are even automated. We do sometimes joke about writing a program that would actually write a paper with new ideas and insights, but at least so far that seems like a joke. I'm not sure how to make this progression work in the musical world. I've sometimes thought that if I was at a university I would try to spend more time on understanding how brass instruments work. I honestly believe that there are non-linear acoustics going on that if understood better could improve how we understand instruments. There is a slim chance that we could even build better instruments (e.g. they would do what we want them to do with less effort and therefore focus more of our effort on the music) or improve pedagogical methods. But, given that this is not all that necessary (we have excellent horns right now and people learns to play them quite amazingly well) and that a better understanding of how the instruments would work would almost certainly lead to better synthesizers (perhaps way better than digital sampling) I am not sure I could undertake work that could lead to better synthesizers and fewer jobs for musicians (wow, that's a long sentence with a lot of parenthetical phrases. It's probably easier to read DJ's posts!). But as I work for the government, I am not going to have the choice to do such diverse work anyway. Cheers, Andy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 19:28:42 -0600 From: "Isaac J. Roorda" Subject: Re: Chinese instruments Yes, I was just wondering the same thing this afternoon. Isaac ------------------------ Isaac Roorda Pella, IA Tuba - Pella High "Marching Dutch" & Concert Band Bass Trombone - Pella High Jazz II ijroorda@softhome.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric & Candice Swanson" To: Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 6:44 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Chinese instruments > Keith Marr wrote: > > > Jupiter is not Chinese, it's Taiwanese with US management. Subtle > > difference? Not really, there is a wealth of difference. These are good > > instruments. I use the 636L in orchestral work, and it's really good. > > .......... > > Hey Keith, > > I noticed that Jupiter now has a bass trombone for sale. Have you or anybody > played one yet? Brasswind price of $1395 (US) for a new double valve bass > trombone. I'm wondering how it plays and how is the slide. > > Just curious, > > Eric Swanson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 21:44:27 -0500 From: Harlan Feinstein Subject: Re: Chinese instruments Steve> Well sure, but 250 pounds is an awful lot to hold for a whole Steve> song. I'm not sure an Ergobone could that much weight. Depending on the song, you might be able to play it all in 1st position, and be able to rest the bottom of the slide on the ground while you're playing. :-) --Harlan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 23:34:06 EST From: JFBermann@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Chinese instruments Eric, The Jupiter bass trombone is a clone of the Conn 112H. I haven't seen one yet first hand. Jim Bermann ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 1 Feb 2003 to 2 Feb 2003 (#2003-33) **************************************************************