Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 24 Jan 2003 to 25 Jan 2003 (#2003-25) Date: Sunday, January 26, 2003 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 51 messages totalling 2651 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. CL2000 Valve (4) 2. The score says alto, but does it mean it? (3) 3. Bach 42G-Hagmann bell for sale. 4. 5. The score says alto... table of contents taken from an alto excerpt book 6. Mouth Cavity Size (8) 7. Stirring the pot (5) 8. Quartet Music on eBay - Lassus Trombone (4) 9. Most Influential Non-Trombonists? (11) 10. Heros (Non-Trombonists) (4) 11. DJisms & Stirring the pot 12. bass trombone orchestral parts 13. Cy Touff 14. Fw: [TBN-L] Most Influential Non-Trombonists? (5) 15. articulation/language [long] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 00:49:37 -0800 From: Elisabeth Frederick Subject: Re: CL2000 Valve I have a new 88H with the Lindberg valve...I love it. The valve is quick and very open. I have noticed that it seems to like more frequent oiling that my old rotors....but I probably didn't oil them enough. Liz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Isaac J. Roorda" To: Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 1:01 PM Subject: [TBN-L] CL2000 Valve > Greetings, listers, > > I've started looking seriously at buying a new horn sometime soon, and > I'm leaning toward a Conn 88H with Lindberg valve. Does anyone have much or > any experience with this system? How does it compare to a Thayer valve or > just a standard rotor? Is it as good as Conn's literature says? > > Thanks, > Isaac Roorda > ------------------------ > Isaac J. Roorda > Pella, IA > Tuba - Pella High "Marching Dutch" & Concert Band > Bass Trombone - Pella High Jazz II > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 10:03:52 -0000 From: Edward Solomon Subject: Re: The score says alto, but does it mean it? Keith Marr wrote: So I'm looking for views on the following composers who specify alto for the first part, and these are my initial suggestions. Alto to be played on alto Mozart Beethoven Mendelssohn Brahms Alto to be played on tenor Borodin Glinka Dvorak Gliere Schubert Obviously this isn't an exhaustive list, just a start point. So anyone with a view of the situation regarding other composers, I'm listening. What about Schumann for example? Also I dare say with some composers it varies from one work to another. Any thoughts? ------------------------------------------ I've concentrated on investigating this very question quite a lot recently. The demise of the alto trombone is one to followed closely if you're going to try to play the parts on the right instrument. Firstly, it is necessary to look at the whole issue on a geographical basis. The easiest countries to deal with are those which dispensed with the alto trombone quite early in the 19th century. France, for example, ditched the alto trombone (and the old French Eb bass trombone) quite early, such that by the time of Berlioz, it was already the custom to play the lower two, if not all three, orchestral trombone parts on the Bb instrument. That remained the custom in France until well into the 20th century. So the Symphonie Fantastique, for example, which normally has parts printed up as "alto, tenor and bass" should read "alto, 1st tenor, 2nd tenor". There are few cases of the alto trombone being used in France thereafter. Ravel, Debussy, Saint Saens, Faure, Chabrier, etc. were all familiar with the French section of three tenors. There is one small exception: Ambroise Thomas had a penchant for the alto trombone and used it quite late in the 19th century. Germany and Austria are an altogether more vexed problem. Much as in France, Germany saw the gradual extinction of the old F and Eb bass trombones and the alto trombone during the 19th century. However, unlike France, which succombed to the valve trombone during the 1820s, Germany was more resistant to change and the players there, whilst happily ditching the bass trombone in favour of the "tenorbass" trombone (a large bore Bb tenor, later improved by Sattler by the addition of a valve attachment), retained the alto trombone for rather longer. Certainly by the time of Brahms, the alto trombone was becoming scarce and by the end of his lifetime, orchestral parts were being played on Bb or Bb/F instruments much as they are today. (This, by the way, is not a problem which merely affected Brahms' trombones: the horns and trumpets are also written as if to be played on natural instruments, which was also far from the reality in the latter half the 19th century, though, of course, bore sizes were nothing like today's.) The question of Brahms is a more difficult one. It is fairly certain that his trombone parts were, as his horn and trumpet parts, conceived for the older instruments, though in reality, they were played on Bb instruments. So do you play the parts on alto trombone or not? I have never performed in a Brahms work with an alto trombone, though I have recordings of them with alto trombone. To my ear, the alto seems to be a good fit, but what most players do is exactly what happened in Brahms' day: play it on the Bb tenor. Thus composers like Wagner, Bruckner, Mahler, Strauss etc. would not have had their music played on an alto trombone. Only later did the alto trombone go through a revival in the early 20th century in mainstream orchestral music (Schoenberg's Gurrelieder, for example). It is also possible that players of the old school may have retained their alto trombones for the works of the Classical and early Romantic masters, such as Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert. Works written prior to about 1850-60 could certainly have expected to be played on the alto trombone, though, so the Schubert, Berwald, Weber, Mendelssohn, Schumann symphonies/overtures/oratorios/operas, Liszt Hungarian Rhapsodies, all call for the alto trombone. So, too, do the earliest works of Wagner, such as Rienzi. Eastern Europe and Italy fell to the invasion of the valve trombone, so whilst there were alto, tenor and bass (even contrabass) valve trombones, the standard orchestral section that someone like Dvorak knew would have very likely consisted of two (rotary) valved Bb tenors and a valved F bass trombone. I can only imagine the plight of the poor first trombone in the 6th symphony (in D major) during the last movement! That is a work that seems to cry out for the alto trombone, but would again normally be played on a tenor. In Italy, similarly, composers like Verdi would have known a section of three valved Bb tenors. Subjoined to this group would be a low brass instrument of some description (typically, whatever was available) that was identified as a "cimbasso". Russia imported its instruments from Germany, so followed the German fashion, which excluded the alto trombone. Funnily enough, though, Schumann started a trend which other composers followed, which was to annotate the first and second trombones on one staff in the alto clef. This practice was retained by the Russian composers until the present day, virtually, since composers such as Rimsky Korsakov, Prokofiev, Shostakovitch have all followed this inane concept, especially given the lack of an alto trombone! Rimsky is a good case in point: why did he score every trombone solo for the second trombone? It is as if he clearly expected the first player to have an alto trombone, though this was never the case in Russia. A recent study by Rob Slocombe entitled "Fall and Rise of the Alto Trombone: 1830-2000" (http://www.trombone-society.org.uk/alto1.htm) details the extinction of the alto trombone during the late 19th in Britain. By about 1880, the alto trombone was obsolete. Elgar, Delius, Britten, Vaughan Williams, Walton, Holst etc. would have known only the standard orchestral, military band or brass band trombone section of two Bb tenors and a G bass trombone. Elgar's "alto trombone" in the "Enigma Variations" is nothing but a Bb tenor. (I performed it once with an alto trombone on first, which sounded completely out of place.) To sum up, it is a question of really knowing the history and the composers in some detail in order to figure out whether an alto trombone is required. Certainly by the time that Richard Strauss was writing, he expected the first trombone to be able to reach high E. So just because the part is very high, it doesn't mean that an alto is required. Similarly, though, just because a part isn't particularly high, that doesn't mean that the alto isn't intended. Take Schubert 8 and 9, for example: they are both possible on the tenor, but really shine when you have an alto. That's whay we have this forum: so we can talk about these things and enhance our abilities. Thanks, Keith, for the question! Ed. __________________________________________ Edward Solomon British Trombone Society Webmaster mailto:webmaster@trombone-society.org.uk Visit "The Trombonist Online" - the online magazine of the British Trombone Society http://www.trombone-society.org.uk __________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 21:32:39 +1100 From: hlmswlkr@OZEMAIL.COM.AU Subject: Bach 42G-Hagmann bell for sale. G'day all, I have for sale a Bach 42G bell section. It was built from factory parts, and features a Hagmann F valve section, which is detachable in a similar style to Edwards horns. Mounting other bells, or a straight neck pipe to this flare, will increase this bells versatility. Accepts standard Bach or Edwards large handslide shanks. Lower tuning slide is "reversed" to induce a constant taper in the bell section. Lacquer is good, with a few minor blemishes at neck contact points. No dents, but 1 or 2 small "ripples" from impacts with other objects. For pictuers, please visit http://www.geocities.com/brassinstruments/bach.html I'm asking US$700, which is less than the cost of the new parts. Why am I selling? I built 2 bells, one for me, and one for a client. The guy pulled out at the last moment, and I have no need for 2 identical horns. Thanks for your interest, Regards Matthew Walker Bass Trombonist, Opera Australia Walker's Instrument Repair, "The Brassery" This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 12:54:02 +0100 From: Howard Weiner Subject: Re: The score says alto, but does it mean it? At 01:14 25.01.03 +0000, Keith Marr wrote: >The question I find I am asking myself at the beginning of each rehearsal >schedule is whether to play alto or tenor. A lot of parts are written for >alto according to the score but I wonder if the composer was merely >following a convention. One thinks of Dvorak's writing for trumpets and >horns as if natural instruments were in use, marking in all the changes of >crook whilst at the same time writing passages that can only be played by >keyed instruments. Keith, This is a controversial subject, and one that unfortunately has not been very well researched. Having played a lot of Baroque and Classical music on "original" instruments (and having watched the Early Music scene move into the Romantic era), I've given this a lot of thought and come to the conclusion that it's very difficult to decide if and when alto trombone was really intended. Another point is that the scores, even the so-called Urtext editions, don't always faithfully convey the composer's intentions. A case in point is Mozart, who as far as I know never indicated "trombone alto," "trombone tenore," or "trombone basso" -- as his trombone parts are labelled even in the New Collected Edition -- but rather simply "trombone 1," "trombone 2," and "trombone 3." On the other hand, there does indeed seem to have been a convention in some places at some times to labelled the trombone parts "alto," "tenor," and "bass" even when it was obvious that the alto part could not or was inappropriate to be played on an alto. >So I'm looking for views on the following composers who specify alto for the >first part, and these are my initial suggestions. > >Alto to be played on alto > >Mozart >Beethoven >Mendelssohn >Brahms > >Alto to be played on tenor > >Borodin >Glinka >Dvorak >Gliere >Schubert For composers of the Viennese Classic, alto trombone is probably appropriate, although the only documentary evidence I know points toward the tenor. Russian music: definitely tenor Dvorak: tenor (originally for valve trombone, apparently) >Obviously this isn't an exhaustive list, just a start point. So anyone with >a view of the situation regarding other composers, I'm listening. What about >Schumann for example? Also I dare say with some composers it varies from one >work to another. I am of the opinion that the alto trombone is used much more frequently today than it ever was in the past. But if you feel that an alto is what you need to play the part satisfactorily, or that an alto gives you sound you want, then use it. If not, leave it in the case. Howard -- Howard Weiner weiner@privat.toplink.de http://www.odilia.ch/howard-weiner If vegetarians eat only vegetables, what do humanitarians eat? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 13:10:41 +0100 From: Ben van Dijk Subject: Dear friends, I am working on a list of basstrombone solo CD's on my site. The start is on my homepage under bassbonegraphy and is just a beginning. I have now almost all my CD's on it with their repertoire included, some more will come a.s.a.p, and I will start with my LP collection after that. I will also include the addresses where you can get the Cd's later. If you have suggestions, please name them so I can update the list to make it even more complete. On my list is also a new recording of the Trombonly ensemble on which Both Ingo Luis and my self play some basstrombone solo's. Olav Ott plays a ensemble arrangement of the David concert and Ian McDougall plays some Jazz pieces. It's a very diverse, interesting CD in my opinion. Greetings, Ben van Dijk Basstrombone Rotterdam Philharmonic Rotterdam Conservatory Royal Northern College of Music, Manchester www.basstrombone.nl ben@basstrombone.nl ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 08:08:20 -0500 From: Peter Fielding Subject: Re: The score says alto... table of contents taken from an alto excerpt book Hello, rather than attempting to be an authority on the alto trombone (though I did record the Albrectsberger three weeks ago this afternoon), the following shall be a list of excerpts that Ken Shiifrin compiled in: "The Professional's Handbook of Orchestral Excerpts - The Orchestral Excerpt Series for the Orchestral 'Doubler' - Alto Trombone" Virgo Music Publishers, 1986. I would also like to include a quote from Ken Shifrin's foreword: "As a final word on the advisability of using the alto or tenor on first trombone parts, I conclude with the following anecdote. A youthful (of course) and conscientious trombonist was trying to determine whether the alto or tenor was better suited for a particular work he was called to perform. Having diligently studied both the score and the composer's style, he finally consulted a well-known trombonist, a man distinguished as much for his playing ability as for his many years of orchestral experience. When asked by the young man what he would choose, the elder statesman replied, "Does the orchestra pay a doubling fee?" Bach- Cantata No. 4, Cantata No. 121 Beethoven- Leonora Overtures, No. 2 & No. 3 Missa Solemnis Symphony No. 5, No. 6, & No. 9 Berg- Drei Bruchstucke - 'Wozzeck' Wozzeck Lulu The Orchestral Pieces Brahms- German Requiem [but I like playing Symph #1 on alto...] Britten- The Building of the House The Burning Fiery Furnace Bruckner- Mass in E minor, Mass in F minor Dvorak- Stabat Mater Te Deum Handel- Israel in Egypt Haydn- The Creation The Seasons Mahler- Symphony No. 6 Mendelssohn- Elijah Oratorio Hymn of Praise Ruy Blas Overture Symphony No. 5 Meyerbeer- Kronungsmarsch - 'The Prophet' Monteverdi- Orfeo Mozart- Davidde Penitente Don Giovani Idomeneo Magic Flute Mass in C Major, Mass in C Minor Requiem Schuldigkeit des Ersten Gebotes Vesperae Solennes de Confessore Schonberg- Gurr-Lieder Pelleas et Melisande Shubert- Mass No. 1, Mass No. 5, Mass No. 6 Symphony No. 9 Schumann- Symphony No. 1, No. 2, No. 3, No. 4 Schutz- Magnificat Strauss, R.- Die Frau ohne Schatten Stravinsky- The Flood Thomas, A.- Hamlet Weber- Der Freischutz Overture Oberon Overture all the best, Peter Fielding ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 08:36:09 -0600 From: Pat & Jo McFarland Subject: Re: CL2000 Valve I bought an 88H-CL last march and I love it. It's much more open than my old 4B w/F att. I also tried a couple of horns with Thayer valves (Bach & Shires, I think). I prefered the feel of the 88H-CL. Your mileage may vary. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Isaac J. Roorda" To: Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 3:01 PM Subject: [TBN-L] CL2000 Valve > Greetings, listers, > > I've started looking seriously at buying a new horn sometime soon, and > I'm leaning toward a Conn 88H with Lindberg valve. Does anyone have much or > any experience with this system? How does it compare to a Thayer valve or > just a standard rotor? Is it as good as Conn's literature says? > > Thanks, > Isaac Roorda > ------------------------ > Isaac J. Roorda > Pella, IA > Tuba - Pella High "Marching Dutch" & Concert Band > Bass Trombone - Pella High Jazz II > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 08:41:46 -0600 From: Pat & Jo McFarland Subject: Re: CL2000 Valve I had the same problem at first with my CL valve. I flushed it with warm soapy water and rinsed. Then I used Binak about 3 times a week for about a month to clean out any machining fluids and debris that might have been left in the valve. Then I cleaned it again and again started using the rotor oil that came with the horn. Now I only have to oil it once or twice every month. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elisabeth Frederick" To: Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 2:49 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] CL2000 Valve > I have a new 88H with the Lindberg valve...I love it. The valve is quick and > very open. I have noticed that it seems to like more frequent oiling that my > old rotors....but I probably didn't oil them enough. > > Liz > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Isaac J. Roorda" > To: > Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 1:01 PM > Subject: [TBN-L] CL2000 Valve > > > > Greetings, listers, > > > > I've started looking seriously at buying a new horn sometime soon, and > > I'm leaning toward a Conn 88H with Lindberg valve. Does anyone have much > or > > any experience with this system? How does it compare to a Thayer valve or > > just a standard rotor? Is it as good as Conn's literature says? > > > > Thanks, > > Isaac Roorda > > ------------------------ > > Isaac J. Roorda > > Pella, IA > > Tuba - Pella High "Marching Dutch" & Concert Band > > Bass Trombone - Pella High Jazz II > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 09:43:29 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Mouth Cavity Size Hi all... Sorry I didn't get to this topic when it was more current. The Trombone Store idea is consuming lots of time. There is no question that the oral cavity affects sound. All you need to do to prove that is play a middle F and gradually close up your oral cavity w/the back and sides of your tongue. Or, sound different vowels.(Same thing.) More and more I am realizing that the tongue is the unconsidered factor in so much of what we do. Besides articulation,its other functions...timbral control (by altering the size and shape of the oral cavity) and routing and focusing the air, especially in the higher registers...are almost never addressed. Why is this? i think it is because we are almost totally unconscious of what we do w/our tongue on a continual basis. We do not "think" about the complexities of speaking, because to do so would stop speech in its tracks. We simply speak. Try it. Go ahead. Say the simplest sentence in any language, and try to be aware of the incredible shifts and gyrations through which the various parts of the tongue travel as they help to both articulate the consonants and sound the vowels. Now play a simple untongued harmonic series or a long tone from ppp to fff and back again and pay the same attention to the function of the tongue. Lots happening... We simplify this speech system somewhat when we play, because when we speak the jaw and also the lips help to form the sounds whereas when we play the lips are mostly busy dong the job of producing the sound and the jaw is comparatively immobilized as well compared to its freedom of movement during speech. I mean, try to form an embouchure and then, w/out altering the setting of your jaw and lips, try to talk. It can be done, because the tongue (and by tongue w/in this whole idea I mean all of the tongue, not just the front) takes care of some of the needed business, but it is quite limited. Now the original form of this thread had to do, I believe, w/the idea that the hard wired size and shape of an individual's oral cavity dictated that person's "sound". This is true to some extent, and you can include the entire air column's size and shape and the nasal cavities in that idea as well. This can be argued until doomsday, but by the simple expedient of altering those cavities in any way you can prove its truth. Play a middle F and while doing so, hold your nostrils closed. Altered timbre; end of argument. But...does the shape and size of any given individual's cavity system dictate "how" they sound, or for that matter whether they will ever get a good sound? (Whatever a good sound might mean in any idiom.) Yes, I suppose so. As much as what they hear as a good sound and the equipment they choose to produce that sound? I doubt it, except in truly strange situations...perhaps people w/cleft palates or maybe extremely small systems. EXTREMELY small. Much of the reason for equipment differences among players has to do w/just this idea. I suppose it could be somewhat more scientifically categorized (maybe not, come to think of it...), but a six foot four man who wears size 14 shoes and has a bass voice and a 5 foot woman who sings soprano and weighs 100 lbs. are going to need different equipment to get the same general kind of sound. Or maybe they CANNOT get the same sound, which would explain why so many orchestral principal trombonists seem to be about 6 feet tall and on the medium to slim side in natural build these days, why so many jazz trombonists who play in the general J.J./Slide Hampton/NY latin scene projecting style are somewhat barrel-chested by nature. Your physicality certainly dictates your capabilities, but only to a certain extent. The rest is up to you. Later... S. -- (Sam Burtis, author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at [still under construction], email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. By appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 08:58:37 -0700 From: bldrbrs Subject: Stirring the pot Thank you Sam, I have believed and taught along these lines for many years. Perhaps one step further. Why do brass players from Great Britain, Germany, France, Italy, Russia, Australia, the United States et al. (apologies to those from unlisted countries) have tone qualities and articulation styles that are distinctly identifiable to those countries? Could it be that our everyday speech patterns and use of language have a profound influence on tone production and articulation? (please do not read into this ONLY influence) I believe so. One only needs to listen to recordings by PJBE, German Brass, and Summit Brass, Luur Metalls, etc. The shape and size of the oral cavity DO effect tone production, and not just because of it's influence on the embouchure (which is significant), but also because of it's influence on position of the tongue, influence on the size and shape of the main venturi to the embouchure, and hence quality of air stream / column and quality of articulation. Best, Michael Allen Instructor of Tuba & Euphonium Master's candidate - bass trombone performance and pedagogy University of Colorado at Boulder michael.allen@colorado.edu Boulder Brass bldrbrs@attbi.com www.boulderbrass.com -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of sabutin Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 6:43 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Mouth Cavity Size Hi all... Sorry I didn't get to this topic when it was more current. The Trombone Store idea is consuming lots of time. There is no question that the oral cavity affects sound. All you need to do to prove that is play a middle F and gradually close up your oral cavity w/the back and sides of your tongue. Or, sound different vowels.(Same thing.) More and more I am realizing that the tongue is the unconsidered factor in so much of what we do. Besides articulation,its other functions...timbral control (by altering the size and shape of the oral cavity) and routing and focusing the air, especially in the higher registers...are almost never addressed. Why is this? i think it is because we are almost totally unconscious of what we do w/our tongue on a continual basis. We do not "think" about the complexities of speaking, because to do so would stop speech in its tracks. We simply speak. Try it. Go ahead. Say the simplest sentence in any language, and try to be aware of the incredible shifts and gyrations through which the various parts of the tongue travel as they help to both articulate the consonants and sound the vowels. Now play a simple untongued harmonic series or a long tone from ppp to fff and back again and pay the same attention to the function of the tongue. Lots happening... We simplify this speech system somewhat when we play, because when we speak the jaw and also the lips help to form the sounds whereas when we play the lips are mostly busy dong the job of producing the sound and the jaw is comparatively immobilized as well compared to its freedom of movement during speech. I mean, try to form an embouchure and then, w/out altering the setting of your jaw and lips, try to talk. It can be done, because the tongue (and by tongue w/in this whole idea I mean all of the tongue, not just the front) takes care of some of the needed business, but it is quite limited. Now the original form of this thread had to do, I believe, w/the idea that the hard wired size and shape of an individual's oral cavity dictated that person's "sound". This is true to some extent, and you can include the entire air column's size and shape and the nasal cavities in that idea as well. This can be argued until doomsday, but by the simple expedient of altering those cavities in any way you can prove its truth. Play a middle F and while doing so, hold your nostrils closed. Altered timbre; end of argument. But...does the shape and size of any given individual's cavity system dictate "how" they sound, or for that matter whether they will ever get a good sound? (Whatever a good sound might mean in any idiom.) Yes, I suppose so. As much as what they hear as a good sound and the equipment they choose to produce that sound? I doubt it, except in truly strange situations...perhaps people w/cleft palates or maybe extremely small systems. EXTREMELY small. Much of the reason for equipment differences among players has to do w/just this idea. I suppose it could be somewhat more scientifically categorized (maybe not, come to think of it...), but a six foot four man who wears size 14 shoes and has a bass voice and a 5 foot woman who sings soprano and weighs 100 lbs. are going to need different equipment to get the same general kind of sound. Or maybe they CANNOT get the same sound, which would explain why so many orchestral principal trombonists seem to be about 6 feet tall and on the medium to slim side in natural build these days, why so many jazz trombonists who play in the general J.J./Slide Hampton/NY latin scene projecting style are somewhat barrel-chested by nature. Your physicality certainly dictates your capabilities, but only to a certain extent. The rest is up to you. Later... S. -- (Sam Burtis, author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at [still under construction], email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. By appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 10:43:46 -0600 From: Brad Howland Subject: Quartet Music on eBay - Lassus Trombone Entertain children of all ages with this humorous arrangement for trombone quartet! http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2503209407&category=157 You will probably have to Cut (Ctrl-C) and Paste (Ctrl-V) the above location into the address bar of your browser. Regards, Brad Howland ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 10:45:27 -0600 From: Jeff Oien Subject: Most Influential Non-Trombonists? I would like to hear who has influenced you the most outside of the world of trombone players. A couple of examples for me are Arnold Jacobs, who was the antithesis of the "tubby tuba" type sound. Obviously there are so many things about him to be admired and emulated but his clarity of attack, musical sound and ease in the upper register are all things that can be emulated on bass trombone. Also I was completely enthralled listening to Rostropovich play the Bach Cello Suite 5 Sarabande for the first time. It totally changed my outlook on the music and while his fluid "non-breathing" style may be near impossible to emulate, his sonority and expression are very inspiring. JP on OTJ mentioned the horn player Dennis Brain. My library system has some of his recordings and I'll be checking those out. I would love to hear who has influenced you. Jeff Oien, Milwaukee, WI P.S. by emulate I don't mean copy exactly, but take what's good about them and incorporate it to make myself a better musician ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 16:48:50 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: Mouth Cavity Size From: "sabutin" > Try it. Go ahead. Say the simplest sentence in any language, and > try to be aware of the incredible shifts and gyrations through which > the various parts of the tongue travel as they help to both > articulate the consonants and sound the vowels. > > Now play a simple untongued harmonic series or a long tone from > ppp to fff and back again and pay the same attention to the function > of the tongue. Help! Damn it Sam, why did you have to start this up again? Many years ago, a student asked me what I did with my tongue while I was playing. I wasn't a trained instructor, just a self taught trombonist among other things. I told him I didn't know, I just blew and the notes came out. That kid's question had me worried all day and when I got on the stage that night I couldn't blow anything at all. I was too busy wondering where my danged tongue ought'a be. Now you've got me at it again. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 11:57:35 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Most Influential Non-Trombonists? In no particular order: Louis Armstrong Sonny Rollins Carmine Caruso Miles Davis Duke Ellington Hazrat Inayat Khan S. >I would like to hear who has influenced you the most outside >of the world of trombone players. > >---snip--- -- (Sam Burtis, author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at [still under construction], email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. By appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 11:58:34 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Mouth Cavity Size >From: "sabutin" > >> Try it. Go ahead. Say the simplest sentence in any language, and >> try to be aware of the incredible shifts and gyrations through which >> the various parts of the tongue travel as they help to both >> articulate the consonants and sound the vowels. >> >> Now play a simple untongued harmonic series or a long tone from >> ppp to fff and back again and pay the same attention to the function >> of the tongue. > > >Help! Damn it Sam, why did you have to start this up again? Many years >ago, a student asked me what I did with my tongue while I was playing. I >wasn't a trained instructor, just a self taught trombonist among other >things. I told him I didn't know, I just blew and the notes came out. That >kid's question had me worried all day and when I got on the stage that night >I couldn't blow anything at all. I was too busy wondering where my danged >tongue ought'a be. > >Now you've got me at it again. > >A. > >Adrian Drover >ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk >Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk =============== Imagine the problems a ventriloquist has !!! S. -- (Sam Burtis, author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at [still under construction], email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. By appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 12:08:21 -0500 From: "Paul D. Kemp Jr." Subject: Re: Most Influential Non-Trombonists? Since you are basically asking about classical musicians (I suppose) I would definitely put Bud Herseth in that group, as well as Janos Starker, Heifitz, Maurice Andre--got to run, I'll add more later. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Oien" To: Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 11:45 AM Subject: [TBN-L] Most Influential Non-Trombonists? > I would like to hear who has influenced you the most outside > of the world of trombone players. > > A couple of examples for me are Arnold Jacobs, who was the > antithesis of the "tubby tuba" type sound. Obviously there > are so many things about him to be admired and emulated > but his clarity of attack, musical sound and ease in the upper > register are all things that can be emulated on bass trombone. > > Also I was completely enthralled listening to Rostropovich play > the Bach Cello Suite 5 Sarabande for the first time. It totally > changed my outlook on the music and while his fluid "non-breathing" > style may be near impossible to emulate, his sonority and > expression are very inspiring. > > JP on OTJ mentioned the horn player Dennis Brain. My library > system has some of his recordings and I'll be checking those > out. I would love to hear who has influenced you. > Jeff Oien, Milwaukee, WI > > P.S. by emulate I don't mean copy exactly, but take what's > good about them and incorporate it to make myself a better > musician > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.443 / Virus Database: 248 - Release Date: 1/10/2003 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 12:10:57 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Stirring the pot >Thank you Sam, > >I have believed and taught along these lines for many years. Perhaps >one step further. > >Why do brass players from Great Britain, Germany, France, Italy, Russia, >Australia, the United States et al. (apologies to those from unlisted >countries) have tone qualities and articulation styles that are >distinctly identifiable to those countries? Could it be that our >everyday speech patterns and use of language have a profound influence >on tone production and articulation? (please do not read into this ONLY >influence) ============== Absolutely. Although I am not fluent in Spanish, I can hear different accents...Cuban, Puertp Rican, Dominican,etc....and they are reflected in the music of each culture and each particular player as well. Further, I am not exactly lost playing w/Cuban or Puerto Rican players whose primary (and sometimes only) language is Spanish, but I am sop much more comfortable playing w/"Nuyoricans"...Spanish players who grew up in NY or other pl;aces in the US and are truly bilingual. They play differently, and I believe much of this is due to their language skills. I do not believe it is possible to play Mozart or Ravel truly "authentically" (as it was originally conceived and played) ...or Duke Ellington or Eddie Palmieri or Machito, for that matter...w/out mastering the language and the accent or dialect of the originators. You can play it well,,,the music may even grow from the cross-cultural fertilization of other languages and dialects over the years...but the accent will change. =========================== > >I believe so. One only needs to listen to recordings by PJBE, German >Brass, and Summit Brass, Luur Metalls, etc. > >The shape and size of the oral cavity DO effect tone production, and not >just because of it's influence on the embouchure (which is significant), >but also because of it's influence on position of the tongue, influence >on the size and shape of the main venturi to the embouchure, and hence >quality of air stream / column and quality of articulation. > >Best, > >Michael Allen >Instructor of Tuba & Euphonium >Master's candidate - bass trombone performance and pedagogy >University of Colorado at Boulder >michael.allen@colorado.edu > >Boulder Brass >bldrbrs@attbi.com >www.boulderbrass.com =========== Yup... S. ---snip--- -- (Sam Burtis, author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at [still under construction], email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. By appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 11:26:59 -0600 From: "Richard Z. Johnson" Subject: Re: Stirring the pot -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of sabutin Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 10:11 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Stirring the pot Absolutely. Although I am not fluent in Spanish, I can hear different accents...Cuban, Puertp Rican, Dominican,etc....and they are reflected in the music of each culture and each particular player as well. Further, I am not exactly lost playing w/Cuban or Puerto Rican players whose primary (and sometimes only) language is Spanish, but I am sop much more comfortable playing w/"Nuyoricans"...Spanish players who grew up in NY or other pl;aces in the US and are truly bilingual. They play differently, and I believe much of this is due to their language skills. I do not believe it is possible to play Mozart or Ravel truly "authentically" (as it was originally conceived and played) ...or Duke Ellington or Eddie Palmieri or Machito, for that matter...w/out mastering the language and the accent or dialect of the originators. You can play it well,,,the music may even grow from the cross-cultural fertilization of other languages and dialects over the years...but the accent will change. =========================== If true, the differences in accent would tend to make the music more interesting. Its nice knowing that there are inherently a million ways to interpret a piece of music! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 11:28:08 -0600 From: "Richard Z. Johnson" Subject: Re: Quartet Music on eBay - Lassus Trombone -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Brad Howland Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 10:44 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] Quartet Music on eBay - Lassus Trombone Entertain children of all ages with this humorous arrangement for trombone quartet! http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2503209407&category=15 7 You will probably have to Cut (Ctrl-C) and Paste (Ctrl-V) the above location into the address bar of your browser. Regards, Brad Howland Too late!!! I just bought it. Hehehehehehehe! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 12:33:08 -0500 From: Steve Carr Subject: Re: The score says alto, but does it mean it? > At 01:14 25.01.03 +0000, Keith Marr wrote: > > >The question I find I am asking myself at the beginning of each rehearsal > >schedule is whether to play alto or tenor. A lot of parts are written for > >alto according to the score but I wonder if the composer was merely > >following a convention. One thinks of Dvorak's writing for trumpets and > >horns as if natural instruments were in use, marking in all the changes of > >crook whilst at the same time writing passages that can only be played by > >keyed instruments. > Why not bring both to the first rehearsal? See which sounds better. What are the other t-bones players using? If the 2nd player only owns an Edwards with 547/562 slide then it maybe tough to blend playing the Alto. It might be interesting to bring both even if you know which one you'll use. You'll also get to hear both and understand why one works better (or not) for a particular piece/composer/situation. I believe that it's possible to be playing the more authentic or correct horn but not sound good to the audience or the rest of the orchestra. Remember that you're playing 19th century music but for 21st century ears. my $.02 Steve C. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 12:38:38 -0500 From: Dale Cruse Subject: Re: Most Influential Non-Trombonists? An interesting topic. Here are my three non-trombone influences, in order: 1. Jaco Pastorius. I started playing electric bass as soon as I heard him. You know how JJ reinvented trombone playing? That's what Jaco did for the electric bass. And he pretty much was the model for how the fretless electric bass was/is supposed to sound. His death was a senseless waste. 2. Flora Purim. If I could play legato the way she does that vocalise style, I'd be a happy man. 3. Miles. For so many reasons. ---- Dale Cruse www.dalecruse.com Setting you up for online success. On 1/25/03 10:57 AM, "sabutin" wrote: > In no particular order: > > Louis Armstrong > > Sonny Rollins > > Carmine Caruso > > Miles Davis > > Duke Ellington > > Hazrat Inayat Khan > > S. > > > >> I would like to hear who has influenced you the most outside >> of the world of trombone players. >> >> ---snip--- > > > -- > (Sam Burtis, author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor > of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used > lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at > [still under construction], email us at > , or call us at [718] 796-4413. By > appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 11:59:22 -0600 From: Mike Switzer Subject: Re: Most Influential Non-Trombonists? Ornette Coleman and Albert Ayler for melodic improv John Stevens for non-melodic improv Chet Baker for his sense of melody Monk for his sense of humor and harmony and many many more... M "Seek and learn to recognize who and what, in the midst of the inferno, are not inferno, then make them endure, give them space." -Italo Calvino -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Jeff Oien Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 10:45 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] Most Influential Non-Trombonists? I would like to hear who has influenced you the most outside of the world of trombone players. A couple of examples for me are Arnold Jacobs, who was the antithesis of the "tubby tuba" type sound. Obviously there are so many things about him to be admired and emulated but his clarity of attack, musical sound and ease in the upper register are all things that can be emulated on bass trombone. Also I was completely enthralled listening to Rostropovich play the Bach Cello Suite 5 Sarabande for the first time. It totally changed my outlook on the music and while his fluid "non-breathing" style may be near impossible to emulate, his sonority and expression are very inspiring. JP on OTJ mentioned the horn player Dennis Brain. My library system has some of his recordings and I'll be checking those out. I would love to hear who has influenced you. Jeff Oien, Milwaukee, WI P.S. by emulate I don't mean copy exactly, but take what's good about them and incorporate it to make myself a better musician ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 13:03:27 -0600 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Re: Stirring the pot hey i cain deeg whchu all is gabbin bout uuuuuuh like the lingo is dingo --- the beetles is fetal ---yeah baby !!!!!!!!! its hip 2b square ------and in time in time relatively speekin fer shoe --- babba lou -------dizzzzzzzzz ee arnez linus pauling an miss lucy brown ---------um hum thats a quiet combo of nucleated geospermatoa !!!!!!! clone dat --------- sabutin wrote: > >Thank you Sam, > > > >I have believed and taught along these lines for many years. Perhaps > >one step further. > > > >Why do brass players from Great Britain, Germany, France, Italy, Russia, > >Australia, the United States et al. (apologies to those from unlisted > >countries) have tone qualities and articulation styles that are > >distinctly identifiable to those countries? Could it be that our > >everyday speech patterns and use of language have a profound influence > >on tone production and articulation? (please do not read into this ONLY > >influence) > > ============== > > Absolutely. > > Although I am not fluent in Spanish, I can hear different > accents...Cuban, Puertp Rican, Dominican,etc....and they are > reflected in the music of each culture and each particular player as > well. > > Further, I am not exactly lost playing w/Cuban or Puerto Rican > players whose primary (and sometimes only) language is Spanish, but I > am sop much more comfortable playing w/"Nuyoricans"...Spanish players > who grew up in NY or other pl;aces in the US and are truly bilingual. > They play differently, and I believe much of this is due to their > language skills. > > I do not believe it is possible to play Mozart or Ravel truly > "authentically" (as it was originally conceived and played) ...or > Duke Ellington or Eddie Palmieri or Machito, for that matter...w/out > mastering the language and the accent or dialect of the originators. > > You can play it well,,,the music may even grow from the > cross-cultural fertilization of other languages and dialects over the > years...but the accent will change. > > =========================== > > > > >I believe so. One only needs to listen to recordings by PJBE, German > >Brass, and Summit Brass, Luur Metalls, etc. > > > >The shape and size of the oral cavity DO effect tone production, and not > >just because of it's influence on the embouchure (which is significant), > >but also because of it's influence on position of the tongue, influence > >on the size and shape of the main venturi to the embouchure, and hence > >quality of air stream / column and quality of articulation. > > > >Best, > > > >Michael Allen > >Instructor of Tuba & Euphonium > >Master's candidate - bass trombone performance and pedagogy > >University of Colorado at Boulder > >michael.allen@colorado.edu > > > >Boulder Brass > >bldrbrs@attbi.com > >www.boulderbrass.com > > =========== > > Yup... > > S. > > ---snip--- > -- > (Sam Burtis, author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor > of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used > lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at > [still under construction], email us at > , or call us at [718] 796-4413. By > appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 10:50:26 -0700 From: David Oliver Subject: Re: CL2000 Valve I have one built in 1999 and agree 100% with what Elisabeth said. Also, I've been trying to use Binak with the rotor, but I think it would be faster with the stuff you are supposed to use. With the short throw, it's still "fast", even with the Binak. One thing I did notice recently was that when the valve was engaged there was a slight mis-alignment. You can easily see this when peering into where the bell section connects to the slide assembly with a flashlight and operating the valve. I wondered what was up, as B natural wasn't centering well. I had this same problem with my Holton TR-181 for the same reason. I took the 181 in to Bill Ford here in Denver. I found an exacto knife blade and very carefully shaved off a thin sliver on the 88H bumper, which solved the problem. I don't recommend this for everyone. I sort of use to "close in" work at my job where I use a microscope to solder and remove small electronic components when I'm designing something. It was like this for the last 2 1/2 years (since I'd owned it), but the valve is so open compared to a standard rotor that I didn't think much of it till playing more low stuff and gradually improving in playing ability over time. David Oliver Broomfield, Colorado USA Elisabeth Frederick wrote: > I have a new 88H with the Lindberg valve...I love it. The valve is quick and > very open. I have noticed that it seems to like more frequent oiling that my > old rotors....but I probably didn't oil them enough. > > Liz > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 10:56:10 -0800 From: Robert Slaven Subject: Re: Mouth Cavity Size From: "sabutin" > There is no question that the oral cavity affects sound. All you > need to do to prove that is play a middle F and gradually close up > your oral cavity w/the back and sides of your tongue. I went to the Saskatchewan Summer School of the Arts in '78 and '79 to a two-week orchestra camp. In '78, we had Greg Cox as the trombone teacher and John Griffiths as the tuba teacher. John heard my sound and said "Your throat's too tight; go find a choir and sing for a while." So I joined the local choral society when I got home, and by Christmas the improvement in my sound was dramatic. Just learning to sing with an open throat and oral cavity -- 'teaching' my mouth how it should be when I play -- made my tone much fuller and stronger. So, 'been there done that' and 'hear hear!', I guess. Robert -- Robert & Linn-Marie Slaven www.robertslaven.ca ...with Stuart, Rebecca, Mariann, Kristina, Elizabeth, and Robin too Good evening. My name is Equator, Brian Equator. Like round the middle of the earth, only with an L. This is my wife Audrey, she smells a bit but she has a heart of gold. - Monty Python's Flying Circus ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 14:32:15 -0500 From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" Subject: Re: Mouth Cavity Size On Sat, 25 Jan 2003, Robert Slaven wrote: > John Griffiths as the tuba teacher. John heard my sound and said "Your > throat's too tight; go find a choir and sing for a while." So I joined the I quoted Prof. Griffiths on the trumpet list the other day. He offers "natural" cryogenic services (even during summer). John will don fur-lined undergarments and run one's instrument around the Regina airport tarmac for 10 minutes for a modest price. John's teacher, Abe Torchinsky likes to demonstrate how he himself has a large resonant voice ("not like an old man") because he thinks about oral cavity, keeping the throat open, and using enough air. Mr. Torchinsky said that's one of the many lessons he learned from Bill Bell. Carole Nowicke cnowicke@indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 15:14:45 -0500 From: David Buckley Subject: Re: Mouth Cavity Size Anyone who has seen the pft repeated TV show "The Voice of God" - naturally about trombones and featuring Alain Trudel and Richard Raum - will know that John Griffiths is "God". All hints, instructions, advice etc from John are to be treated as on a par with the 10 Commandments - not to be ignored lightly. Great guy John and good advice about singing. My philosophy is we manage to imitate good vocal style, then everything else will fall into place. Well maybe not my high register and tonguing, but everything that matters musically. Dave. "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" wrote: > On Sat, 25 Jan 2003, Robert Slaven wrote: > > > John Griffiths as the tuba teacher. John heard my sound and said "Your > > throat's too tight; go find a choir and sing for a while." So I joined the > > I quoted Prof. Griffiths on the trumpet list the other day. He offers > "natural" cryogenic services (even during summer). John will don fur-lined > undergarments and run one's instrument around the Regina airport tarmac > for 10 minutes for a modest price. > > John's teacher, Abe Torchinsky likes to demonstrate how he himself has a > large resonant voice ("not like an old man") because he thinks about oral > cavity, keeping the throat open, and using enough air. Mr. Torchinsky > said that's one of the many lessons he learned from Bill Bell. > > Carole Nowicke > cnowicke@indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 12:24:10 -0800 From: Robert Slaven Subject: Re: Mouth Cavity Size Yup, Richard Raum was the trombone teacher -- complete with Elizabeth for oboe and their kids -- at SSSA in '79. What's this show, where is it oft-repeated, and is it available on tape? As for the Raums, I keep wondering if their violinist daughter, Erika, was the one who once asked her mom as I walked by wearing a T-shirt from the fictional Sachs Harbour Institute of Technology, 'Mommy, why does that man have a bad word on his shirt?' (Sachs Harbour is a real place, about 72 degrees North, and I have indeed played trombone there on a band trip. They do not, however, have an institute of technology. %-) Oh well, enough reminiscing. Back to nagging the insurance company for my trombone money! Robert -- Robert & Linn-Marie Slaven www.robertslaven.ca ...with Stuart, Rebecca, Mariann, Kristina, Elizabeth, and Robin too On Tower Hill two Mormons were trying to address a meeting. Round their platform struggled a mob of men, shouting and interrupting. Someone was denouncing them for polygamists.... There was a confused uproar of voices.... I listened for twenty minutes, anxious to learn something about Mormonism, but the meeting never got beyond shouts. It is the general fate of street meetings. - George Orwell, Down and Out in Paris and London From: "David Buckley" > Anyone who has seen the pft repeated TV show "The Voice of God" - naturally about > trombones and featuring Alain Trudel and Richard Raum - will know that John > Griffiths is "God". All hints, instructions, advice etc from John are to be > treated as on a par with the 10 Commandments - not to be ignored lightly. > > Great guy John and good advice about singing. My philosophy is we manage to > imitate good vocal style, then everything else will fall into place. Well maybe > not my high register and tonguing, but everything that matters musically. > > "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" wrote: > > > On Sat, 25 Jan 2003, Robert Slaven wrote: > > > > > John Griffiths as the tuba teacher. John heard my sound and said "Your > > > throat's too tight; go find a choir and sing for a while." So I joined the > > > > I quoted Prof. Griffiths on the trumpet list the other day. He offers > > "natural" cryogenic services (even during summer). John will don fur-lined > > undergarments and run one's instrument around the Regina airport tarmac > > for 10 minutes for a modest price. > > > > John's teacher, Abe Torchinsky likes to demonstrate how he himself has a > > large resonant voice ("not like an old man") because he thinks about oral > > cavity, keeping the throat open, and using enough air. Mr. Torchinsky > > said that's one of the many lessons he learned from Bill Bell. > > > > Carole Nowicke > > cnowicke@indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 15:09:51 -0600 From: Bill Dinwiddie Subject: Heros (Non-Trombonists) My (non-trombonist) heros list (in no particular order and far from complete): 1. Gil Evans 2. Chet Baker 3. Paul Desmond 4. Oscar Peterson 5. Nat Cole 6. Karen Carpenter 7. Donald Fagen/Walter Becker 8. Miles Davis 9. Stan Getz 10. Igor Stravinsky I'm sure to think of more, but how about some lists from other members? Bill Dinwiddie Chicago bill752d@attbi.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 16:34:15 -0500 From: Jim Dexter Subject: DJisms & Stirring the pot DJ, Yo tone gotta be youneek mongst all merri-can bonehead toneheads in a nu-clee-ated sense be the electron o' molly--cuel --- --- --- way out there tooooo cooooool. Remember the ol' haiku thread a few years back? Maybe we should try some haiku ala DJ!! JD On 25 Jan 2003 at 13:03, D.J. Kennedy wrote: > hey i cain deeg whchu all is gabbin bout > uuuuuuh like the lingo is dingo --- > the beetles is fetal ---yeah baby !!!!!!!!! > its hip 2b square ------and in time in time > relatively speekin fer shoe --- > babba lou -------dizzzzzzzzz ee arnez > linus pauling an miss lucy brown ---------um hum > thats a quiet combo of nucleated geospermatoa !!!!!!! > clone dat --------- > > sabutin wrote: > > They play differently, and I believe much of this is due to their > > language skills. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 15:39:52 -0600 From: Bart Roberts Subject: Re: Heros (Non-Trombonists) 1. Frederick Fennell 2. Georg Solti 3. Harry Begian 4. Ray Brown 5. Count Basie 6. Duke Ellington 7. Wynton Marsalis 8. Brahms 9. Vincent Persichetti 10. Sammy Nestico 11. Frank Sinatra (It Could go on and on.........) Bart Roberts Houston, Texas -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Bill Dinwiddie Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 3:10 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] Heros (Non-Trombonists) My (non-trombonist) heros list (in no particular order and far from complete): 1. Gil Evans 2. Chet Baker 3. Paul Desmond 4. Oscar Peterson 5. Nat Cole 6. Karen Carpenter 7. Donald Fagen/Walter Becker 8. Miles Davis 9. Stan Getz 10. Igor Stravinsky I'm sure to think of more, but how about some lists from other members? Bill Dinwiddie Chicago bill752d@attbi.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 15:59:54 -0600 From: "Monte B. Price" Subject: Re: Heros (Non-Trombonists) My tastes in music were shaped by my Mom, who raised me on generous helpings of Brother Ray and the first "King". In the wastelands of Texas and New Mexico in the 50's, no less. So, without further ado, my heroes (no particular order): Ray Charles Nat "King" Cole Willie Dixon Bob Wills Johnny Gimble (at 80 still sounds like the texas version of Stephane Grappelli) Ray Benson of Asleep at the Wheel Tracy Nelson (female blues singer formerly with Mother Earth) Bobby Hacket Bix Beiderbecke Dr. John Sidney Bechet Eddy Condon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:06:36 -0500 From: Jim Dexter Subject: Re: Heros (Non-Trombonists) Where is this thing goin? Maybe it should be non-trombonists who really like trombonists or wrote great stuff for trombonists or something? Like Marco Bordogni for example. Holy mackerel, there are so many non t-bone amazing musician heros, I can even think of a few who are not even slightly famous, but here's a few you may recognize: 1.)Bill Evans 2.) Charlie Mingus 3.)Stan Kenton 4.)Frankie Laine 5.) Coltrane 6.) Beethoven 7.) Lenny Breau 8.) George Mraz 9.) Mahler 10.) the fetal Beatles OK, I'll stop now JD ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:21:02 -0500 From: Denver Seifried Subject: Re: Most Influential Non-Trombonists? I am going to change directions--as mine have been arrangers, for some strange reason. 1. I can not list many, of my favorites, as they are trombone players! 2. Bill (Willis) Holman 3. Shorty Rodgers 4. Billy May 5. Manny Album 6. Bill Potts 7. Marty Paich Singers:also some big influences on me 1. Irene Kral--she died MUCH TOO YOUNG 2. Rosemary Clooney 3. Diane Krall 4. Sarah Vaughn 5. Jack Jones 6. Mel Torme 7. Maureen McGovern 8. Tony Bennett Denny Seifried Bass Trombone-Springfield (OH) Symphony & Dayton Jazz Orchestra Adjunct Trombone-Wittenberg Univ. Dept. of Music ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 16:37:01 -0600 From: "Michael B. McCreless" Subject: bass trombone orchestral parts Hey Daniel send me your address and I will mail you the Miraculous Mandarin. Michael Bassbone_mike@alumni.jsu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 18:29:59 -0500 From: john burton Subject: Re: Quartet Music on eBay - Lassus Trombone Don't worry.. Brad's got LOTS of great brass music on the website... http://www.musicforbrass.com/ I've purchased from him before and I'm happy! --==jb==-- -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Richard Z. Johnson Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 12:28 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Quartet Music on eBay - Lassus Trombone -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Brad Howland Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 10:44 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] Quartet Music on eBay - Lassus Trombone Entertain children of all ages with this humorous arrangement for trombone quartet! http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2503209407&category=15 7 You will probably have to Cut (Ctrl-C) and Paste (Ctrl-V) the above location into the address bar of your browser. Regards, Brad Howland Too late!!! I just bought it. Hehehehehehehe! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 11:24:05 -0600 From: "Marple, Richard L COL BAMC-Ft Sam Houston" Subject: Re: Mouth Cavity Size Reminds me of an old joke between competitive golfers, "Do you inhale or exhale on your downswing?" Sam: I love the concept of articulation of speach and notes being related. I wonder if anyone can comment on international playing styles being related to speach patterns of the native language. Just as an example, the French language is certainly more nasally spoken when compared to American English, and softer in terms of consonants too. Does that account for any playing differences between the two? Rick Marple San Antonio TX -----Original Message----- From: Adrian Drover [mailto:slide.rule@ADIOS.CO.UK] Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 10:49 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Mouth Cavity Size From: "sabutin" > Try it. Go ahead. Say the simplest sentence in any language, and > try to be aware of the incredible shifts and gyrations through which > the various parts of the tongue travel as they help to both > articulate the consonants and sound the vowels. > > Now play a simple untongued harmonic series or a long tone from > ppp to fff and back again and pay the same attention to the function > of the tongue. Help! Damn it Sam, why did you have to start this up again? Many years ago, a student asked me what I did with my tongue while I was playing. I wasn't a trained instructor, just a self taught trombonist among other things. I told him I didn't know, I just blew and the notes came out. That kid's question had me worried all day and when I got on the stage that night I couldn't blow anything at all. I was too busy wondering where my danged tongue ought'a be. Now you've got me at it again. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:34:17 -0600 From: Jay Heltzer Subject: Re: Most Influential Non-Trombonists? Good topic. Here's mine in random order: -Mel Torme -Matti Salimnen - Icelandic Operatic Bass -Neil Peart/ Geddy Lee -Chanticleer -Frank Zappa -The Poxy Boggards When I hear any of these artists, it just reminds me why I love music and playing it, and certainly listening to it. Jay ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 18:47:10 -0500 From: john burton Subject: Most Influential Non-Trombonists? ** Frank Sinatra ** Manhattan Transfer ** Barbara Cook --==jb==-- ~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~ john burton Bach 50B3 Bass Trombone, Charleston NeoPhonic Orchestra South Charleston, West Virginia ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 11:50:46 -0600 From: "Marple, Richard L COL BAMC-Ft Sam Houston" Subject: Re: Stirring the pot Well, my question under another heading. I guess you could extend this idea beyond brass playing, to strings, percussion. It's hard not to hear the incredible differences in Latin percussion. It makes you wonder why we call music the international language. Take your favorite piece played by many groups all over the world. While we hear the language differences of the players as large, we tend to hear music differences as smaller, yet the differences are still there reflecting language and cultural. Music more tolerable than language? While I cannot respond to the meaning of words I don't understand (English included), I can respond to the meter, pitch and body language. In music, I can always respond. Rick Marple San Antonio TX -----Original Message----- From: sabutin [mailto:sabutin@MINDSPRING.COM] Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 10:11 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Stirring the pot >Thank you Sam, > >I have believed and taught along these lines for many years. Perhaps >one step further. > >Why do brass players from Great Britain, Germany, France, Italy, Russia, >Australia, the United States et al. (apologies to those from unlisted >countries) have tone qualities and articulation styles that are >distinctly identifiable to those countries? Could it be that our >everyday speech patterns and use of language have a profound influence >on tone production and articulation? (please do not read into this ONLY >influence) ============== Absolutely. Although I am not fluent in Spanish, I can hear different accents...Cuban, Puertp Rican, Dominican,etc....and they are reflected in the music of each culture and each particular player as well. Further, I am not exactly lost playing w/Cuban or Puerto Rican players whose primary (and sometimes only) language is Spanish, but I am sop much more comfortable playing w/"Nuyoricans"...Spanish players who grew up in NY or other pl;aces in the US and are truly bilingual. They play differently, and I believe much of this is due to their language skills. I do not believe it is possible to play Mozart or Ravel truly "authentically" (as it was originally conceived and played) ...or Duke Ellington or Eddie Palmieri or Machito, for that matter...w/out mastering the language and the accent or dialect of the originators. You can play it well,,,the music may even grow from the cross-cultural fertilization of other languages and dialects over the years...but the accent will change. =========================== > >I believe so. One only needs to listen to recordings by PJBE, German >Brass, and Summit Brass, Luur Metalls, etc. > >The shape and size of the oral cavity DO effect tone production, and not >just because of it's influence on the embouchure (which is significant), >but also because of it's influence on position of the tongue, influence >on the size and shape of the main venturi to the embouchure, and hence >quality of air stream / column and quality of articulation. > >Best, > >Michael Allen >Instructor of Tuba & Euphonium >Master's candidate - bass trombone performance and pedagogy >University of Colorado at Boulder >michael.allen@colorado.edu > >Boulder Brass >bldrbrs@attbi.com >www.boulderbrass.com =========== Yup... S. ---snip--- -- (Sam Burtis, author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at [still under construction], email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. By appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 18:08:31 -0600 From: Bill Dinwiddie Subject: Cy Touff I have just been notified of the passing of Cyril (Cy) Touff on Friday, Jan. 24th. Cy was well known for his work on bass trumpet with Woody Herman in the 1940's. He spent most of his long musical career in Chicago, did a lot of recording work, and was highly visible in jazz circles. Though Cy was best known for his work on bass trumpet, he was also a very capable trombone player. Cy often played the lead trombone chair on the bass trumpet in many big bands in Chicago. His jazz soloing was of the highest caliber. I learned a lot from Cy and he was a very big help to me in the early part of my career. His superb musicianship will be long remembered and greatly missed. Bill Dinwiddie bill752d@attbi.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 18:46:54 -0600 From: "Richard Z. Johnson" Subject: Re: Most Influential Non-Trombonists? 1. Grover Washington, Jr. 2. Hank Crawford 3. Ramsey Lewis ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 18:49:45 -0600 From: "Richard Z. Johnson" Subject: Re: Quartet Music on eBay - Lassus Trombone Yes, he arranges well. I've purchase several arrangements from Brad. I've been satisfied with all of them. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 19:54:43 -0500 From: Chris Dearth Subject: Re: Most Influential Non-Trombonists? In no particular order: Stan Kenton Rostropovich Dream Theater Eugene Ormandy Charles Dutoit Frank Zappa Duke Ellington Tony Kniffen Jimmy Page Miles Davis Geddy Lee and Neil Peart (Jay and I have similar tastes ;-) ) Chris Dearth ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 20:37:24 -0600 From: Bill Dinwiddie Subject: Fw: [TBN-L] Most Influential Non-Trombonists? Chris, OK. I am forced, at this point, to plead ignorance. Who are Geddy Lee and Neil Peart ? Bill Dinwiddie bill752d@attbi.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Dearth" To: Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 6:54 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Most Influential Non-Trombonists? > In no particular order: > > Stan Kenton > Rostropovich > Dream Theater > Eugene Ormandy > Charles Dutoit > Frank Zappa > Duke Ellington > Tony Kniffen > Jimmy Page > Miles Davis > Geddy Lee and Neil Peart (Jay and I have similar tastes ;-) ) > > Chris Dearth > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 22:16:26 -0500 From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" Subject: Re: articulation/language [long] On Sat, 25 Jan 2003, Marple, Richard L COL BAMC-Ft Sam Houston wrote: > Just as an example, the French > language is certainly more nasally spoken when compared to American English, > and softer in terms of consonants too. Does that account for any playing > differences between the two? He didn't talk about it in this interview, but I remember my teacher Bob Whaley talking about language as a factor, "Sure, Arban says to use the syllable 'tu,'--but how would you say that if you didn't speak with a flat Midwestern twang, and were instead French?" I have an excerpt from an interview with Bob Whaley (who studied with John Hill). This was in response to a comment about how clean his articulation is: Whaley: Well, thank you. [laughs] Somebody asked me that when I played out in Los Angeles at one of the conferences on a new piece. I hope they were saying I was clean, and not saying "How come you're not clean?" But they asked the question, "How do you get the articulation clean?" The first thing I said was "Practice." [laughs] The second thing is that I, for some reason, I don't know if it was John Hill, it might have been a little of Bell, talked about the use of the tongue. So, I used to mess around with different syllables. I practiced tonguing with tee, tay, tah, toe, too, tuh, duh, day, dee, die, doe, do, and I practice that all the time, using the various kinds of tongue. I also practice a lot of attacks without the tongue. I try and practice to get a response to go, so the note starts immediately where a person can't tell that I tongued it or not. I think it's essential that the lip be really responsive so that you are not forcing the lips apart. When you that you have the problem with the tuba where the sound opens late "Bwaaaah," that all the band directors complain about, and say, "Hey tubas, you're late." They're not late--for the most part (sometimes they are) sometimes the tubas are late, but a lot of times, they are going "Waaah," and somebody hears the trumpet go, "Bah!" and they hear that "Waaah" come out and they think the tuba players attacked the note late. No they didn't, they ballooned the attack. Boy, my teacher really bugged me. John Hill bugged me about ballooning attacks when I was first playing. I didn't even hear it. It took me about two months, and then he'd start to open his mouth, and I'd say, "I know, I did it again," and I'd begin to hear it, and it goes away. But one of the things I did even then--see how quick I could get an attack going, and then, choose a syllable to fit the kind of sound I wanted. I also think playing a lot in brass quintet helps that, when the trumpet players want you to sound just like they do on the attacks. [...] But I think the syllable awareness is important, in the brass quintet, you really got to be really precise. It's different in orchestra, you don't have to really attack that way. You can attack hard, but it's different. So it helps me in solo playing I think too, because that kind of articulation works. It's interesting when I play songs, I try to articulate the songs, like the Brahms Four Serious Songs, I try to use the articulation that's in the language, in the German language. You can't do it exactly, because you don't want to put a "tot" on the end of a syllable. But I think about it. That also helps reinforce that kind of articulation. That's been a thing, I think, that I've been lucky, it's been a strength. Nowicke: And difference in tongue placement... Whaley: Tongue placement, where you place it, I don't think it's always in the same spot. I believe in using different vowel sounds when you play. I think it makes it interesting. I found out in reading an article once that that's what John Fletcher believed in too. I don't think it's always "ooooh," it may be "ee," it may be "a," it's nice to make different sounds. Carole Nowicke cnowicke@indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 21:47:05 -0600 From: Chris Waage Subject: Re: Fw: [TBN-L] Most Influential Non-Trombonists? Two members of the Canadian rock trio "Rush." Geddy is the bassist/keyboardist/vocalist and Neil Peart is the percussionist/lyricist. If memory serves, Neil has a Masters in English. Much of their earlier work was based around rather odd topics, including songs based on Ayn Rand's writings. A little more complex than the average "we got three chords and four beats to the bar" rock. Chris On 1/25/03 8:37 PM, "Bill Dinwiddie" wrote: > Chris, > > OK. I am forced, at this point, to plead ignorance. Who are Geddy Lee and > Neil Peart ? > > Bill Dinwiddie > bill752d@attbi.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Dearth" > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 6:54 PM > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Most Influential Non-Trombonists? > > >> In no particular order: >> >> Stan Kenton >> Rostropovich >> Dream Theater >> Eugene Ormandy >> Charles Dutoit >> Frank Zappa >> Duke Ellington >> Tony Kniffen >> Jimmy Page >> Miles Davis >> Geddy Lee and Neil Peart (Jay and I have similar tastes ;-) ) >> >> Chris Dearth >> > -- Chris Waage, Associate Webmaster The Online Trombone Journal http://www.trombone.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 22:53:32 -0500 From: Alan Partis Subject: Re: Fw: [TBN-L] Most Influential Non-Trombonists? At 09:37 PM 01/25/03, you wrote: >OK. I am forced, at this point, to plead ignorance. Who are Geddy Lee and Neil Peart ? Two extremely talented and musical Canadians. I grew up on them just across the south side of the Lake from them. Better known, with guitarist Alex Lifeson, as "Rush". Neil recently put together a very nice tribute album dedicated to Buddy Rich. Geddy has been known to do a bit of movie scoring and didn't he do some opera as well? __________________________________________________ alan partis, amateur bonehead louisville, ky ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 20:01:29 -0800 From: Robert Slaven Subject: Re: Fw: [TBN-L] Most Influential Non-Trombonists? From: "Bill Dinwiddie" > OK. I am forced, at this point, to plead ignorance. Who are Geddy Lee and > Neil Peart ? Gasp! Your musical horizons must needs be broadened. Geddy Lee is the bassist and vocalist, and Neil Peart is the drummer and lyricist, for a band called Rush, out of Toronto. (The third member of the trio is guitarist Alex Lifeson, but he doesn't have the same recognition or "oomph" as Geddy and Neil do.) They started playing together (without Neil, with another drummer) in the late 60's, coming out with an eponymous debut album around 1972 IIRC. Their drummer dropped out between album and tour, and they added Neil. They're now up to 17 studio albums, 4 live albums, and various compilations. Before the troika of Dion, Twain, and Morrisette came along, they were Canada's all-time best-selling musical group. Geddy is widely recognised as the best electric bassist on the planet, and Neil gets similar acclaim for his drumming skills. If you haven't heard them, I suggest you pick up their 2-disc compilation 'Chronicles' (only goes up to 1990, though), or perhaps their latest live 2-disc album 'Different Stages'. The best of their studio albums is probably 'Moving Pictures' from 1980; 'A Farewell to Kings' (1977), 'Signals' (1982), and of course the classic '2112' (1975) are also quite listenable. Yeah, this may not have a lot to do with trombones, but these guys are incredible musicians. Anyone else remember the 19/8 bit in the overture to Hemispheres (1978?)? These guys take the standard 4/4 rock beat and sneer at it. They play 7/4 and stuff all the time and make it sound totally flat normal. Neil Peart has also produced two tribute albums to Buddy Rich, 'Burning for Buddy' vols. 1 and 2. (I heard there was a 3 planned, but haven't seen it.) Basically it's the old BR big band, playing Buddy tunes/arrangements, with different drummers sitting in on the different songs. Thus endeth the lesson. Robert (GOOD sigmonster!) -- Robert & Linn-Marie Slaven www.robertslaven.ca ...with Stuart, Rebecca, Mariann, Kristina, Elizabeth, and Robin too "...angel trumpets and devil trombones...." - Alex, A Clockwork Orange ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 23:09:47 -0500 From: Chris Dearth Subject: Re: Fw: [TBN-L] Most Influential Non-Trombonists? The bass and drummers for the progressive rock group Rush (started in early 70's and still going). Fantastic players and musicians. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Dinwiddie" To: Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 9:37 PM Subject: [TBN-L] Fw: [TBN-L] Most Influential Non-Trombonists? > Chris, > > OK. I am forced, at this point, to plead ignorance. Who are Geddy Lee and > Neil Peart ? > > Bill Dinwiddie > bill752d@attbi.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Dearth" > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 6:54 PM > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Most Influential Non-Trombonists? > > > > In no particular order: > > > > Stan Kenton > > Rostropovich > > Dream Theater > > Eugene Ormandy > > Charles Dutoit > > Frank Zappa > > Duke Ellington > > Tony Kniffen > > Jimmy Page > > Miles Davis > > Geddy Lee and Neil Peart (Jay and I have similar tastes ;-) ) > > > > Chris Dearth > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 21:18:25 -0800 From: Galen McQuarrie Subject: Re: Most Influential Non-Trombonists? Here is just a sample of my favorites, and I might miss a few: -Hank Levy -Don Ellis -Gerald Wilson -Diana Krall -Diane Reeves -Benny Carter -Pete Ruggulo -Stan Kenton -Chet Baker -Rolland Hanna -Jim Hall -Ben Webster -Lennie Niehaus -"Dizzy" Gillespie -Mel Torme -Tony Bennet -Frank Sinatra -(and many more) Classical Orientation -Gustav Mahler -Jean Sibileus -Anton Bruchner -Samuel Barber -Herbert von Karajan -Maurice Abravannel -Sir Georg Solti -Howard Hanson -Maurice Ravel -Artur Rubinstein (and the list goes on, but you get the drift.) I like this post! But this is only a small sample off the top of my head. Galen McQuarrie ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 24 Jan 2003 to 25 Jan 2003 (#2003-25) ****************************************************************