Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 21 Jan 2003 to 22 Jan 2003 (#2003-22) Date: Thursday, January 23, 2003 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 28 messages totalling 1580 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. test (4) 2. Boston Masterclasses (2) 3. Big Favor - Old ITA Journal Article (2) 4. Williams Model 9/////4 or6 dreamed about 5. Looking for more info on King (11) 6. Midi Question (3) 7. williams 9 8. selmer trombone b/f////attn la bone players 9. music minus one 10. Fw: [TBN-L] music minus one 11. Dallas Brass ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 07:31:39 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: test test -- (Sam Burtis, author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at [still under construction], email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. By appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 07:31:21 EST From: BITEensemble@AOL.COM Subject: Boston Masterclasses The Boston Conservatory=20 is pleased to present a series of Brass Masterclasses...=20 (Make sure to mark these dates on your calendar!)=20 John Faieta, trombone=20 Atlantic Brass Quintet=20 How to prepare for your recital=20 =A0=A0=A0 Thursday, January 30, 2003=20 =A0=A0=A0 3:15-5:15 p.m.=20 =A0=A0 Seully Hall (fourth floor)=20 Richard King, french horn=20 Principal French Horn, The Cleveland Orchestra=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0 Saturday, February 8, 2003=20 =A0=A0=A0 4 - 6 p.m.=20 =A0 room 301=20 Harry Shapiro=20 Former Personnel Manager and French Horn with the Boston Symphony=20 =A0=A0=A0 Thursday, March 13, 2003=20 =A0=A0=A0 3:15-5:15 p.m.=20 =A0=A0 Seully Hall (fourth floor)=20 Matt Guilford, bass trombone=20 Bass Trombone, National Symphony=20 =A0=A0=A0 Thursday, March 27, 2003=20 =A0=A0=A0 3:15-5:15 p.m.=20 =A0=A0 Seully Hall (fourth floor)=20 All sessions are free and open to the public.=20 =A0=20 For more information regarding the Boston Conservatory see:=20 http://www.bostonconservatory= .edu/=20 Directions to Boston Conservatory, 8 The Fenway, Boston:=20 Take the Green line to the Auditorium stop (or just go to Tower records at=20 the corner of=20 Newbury St.and Mass Ave).=A0 Go one block south (towards symphony hall) and=20 turn=20 right onto Boylston St.=A0 Go two blocks and turn left onto the Fenway.=A0 F= irst=20 door on your=20 left is the Conservatory.=A0=A0 For more information, contact Keith Hampton=20= at=20 the=20 Boston Conservatory 912-9124. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 05:22:04 -0800 From: David Guion Subject: Re: Big Favor - Old ITA Journal Article >I have a big favor to ask of someone. I have a hankering to read this article: >I.T.A. Journal, Vol. 10, No. 2, April 1982 >Gade, Per: An Interview with Thorkild Graae J¿rgensen > >Unfortunately, the Stanford Music Library does not subscribe to the ITA Journal Hey, everyone, (they say hey instead of hi here in N.C.) Don't forget that you can get copies of articles from ITA Journal or anything else through interlibrary loan if you're willing to wait for it. Typically, you put in your request and receive a photocopy of the article in a week or two. Some colleges and universities restrict ILL to faculty, staff, and graduate students. Undergrads at those schools aren't necessarily out of luck, though, if they have a library card at the public library. Sometimes ILL is a free service. Sometimes you have to pay a fee. But of course if you find a journal on the library shelf and take it to a copy machine, that's not free, either. -- *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* David Guion Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? david@trombone.org *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* -- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:51:06 -0500 From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" Subject: Re: Big Favor - Old ITA Journal Article On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, David Guion wrote: > Sometimes ILL is a free service. Sometimes you have to pay a fee. But of > course if you find a journal on the library shelf and take it to a copy > machine, that's not free, either. I'll betcha a major research institution like Stanford (even if private) is a net-lender. That's a very, very, fine thing as other university libraries usually "owe them one," and there's seldom a fee. I borrow an outrageous amount of material from such exotic sources as Purdue, Michigan State, Cornell the Free Library of Philly, UCLA, etc. on a regular basis. And not just newish stuff--I've had documents from the mid-19th century (on good paper) arrive, instead of a more recent edition. Also, the bigger research libraries are often in arrangements where they'll fax or scan the article and it's even quicker than the Old Days where the item would be mailed. I was looking for an article over the summer and discovered that IU's subscription to the ITA Journal had lapsed at least a year prior and no one had noticed... hmmm... Well, I didn't have to pay to copy the article as IU had to ask someone else to send it. Carole Nowicke cnowicke@indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:07:32 -0600 From: Listmonitor Trombone-L Subject: Re: test Please do not post test messages. If you have a concern regarding the status of your subscription, please either contact me by e-mail (listm@trombone.org) or send an e-mail to: listserv@po.missouri.edu with query trombone-l in the body of the message. LM On 1/22/03 5:31 AM, "sabutin" wrote: > test > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:20:40 -0500 From: DSlide13@AOL.COM Subject: Re: test Did he pass or fail? In a message dated 1/22/2003 9:07:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, listm@TROMBONE.ORG writes: > Please do not post test messages. > > If you have a concern regarding the status of your subscription, please > either contact me by e-mail (listm@trombone.org) or send an e-mail to: > > listserv@po.missouri.edu > > with > > query trombone-l > > in the body of the message. > > LM > > On 1/22/03 5:31 AM, "sabutin" > wrote: > > > test > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:05:50 -0600 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Re: test its off the curve DSlide13@AOL.COM wrote: > Did he pass or fail? > > In a message dated 1/22/2003 9:07:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, listm@TROMBONE.ORG writes: > > > Please do not post test messages. > > > > If you have a concern regarding the status of your subscription, please > > either contact me by e-mail (listm@trombone.org) or send an e-mail to: > > > > listserv@po.missouri.edu > > > > with > > > > query trombone-l > > > > in the body of the message. > > > > LM > > > > On 1/22/03 5:31 AM, "sabutin" > > wrote: > > > > > test > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:27:08 -0600 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Williams Model 9/////4 or6 dreamed about please excuse the post to test --- the williams 9 is pending sale--keith hocking is an interested party he is trombonist in the antique six --a british trad dixie band - all over 60 --5 dates in netherlands next month ---valentines i suppose keith is currently playing a 1938 silvertone king 2b //king m28 mpc after using an early olds super 7 --[7 in bell] they play in a very antiquated but amusing and animated style - a style long forgotten in the land of the free [and frisbees] --------keith has michael rath ser no 6 -schmelzer and others - he would play a williams 4 in happy 4 with the 6 he would joyously blow --- if anyone has one of marvels of earl ---3000 collars ==--i mean dollars $$$$ in gold -- coin of the realm -will be paid to the purveyor transferring title and interest in such magnificence ----but not the tired horn with the flip flop double spit key ---so dont waste yer breth stumbling to grab that tired retired and really tired trombone --even slower than lassus - -----a well played 4 or 6 ---3000$$$$ -- keithhocking@aol is the person wanting the willie waiting ,,,,,,,waiting ..... Sharman king wrote: > hello > > If it's not already sold, I would very much like to buy it. I'd be happy to > do a bank transfer - if you're a trombone player you must be trustworthy! > > Please let me know, or you can page me at 604 640 5711. Just punch in your > phone number and I'll call you back. > > thanks > > Sharman King in Vancouver but you can ship to Blaine, WA > > PS I've sent a copy of this to DJ - we've never met but we've corresponded, > so he will probably vouch for me.... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 15:57:39 -0000 From: Keith Marr Subject: Looking for more info on King I've looked at the potted history of King on the UMI site and wonder if anybody knows a bit more about it. I have a 1927 King trombone which I understand is the original King (patented 1910). At sometime in the 1930s they brought out the King New Proportion, any details on that would be greatly appreciated. What comes next. I see from one of DJ's recent postings that someone has a 1938 Silvertone 2B. How do all these models fit together? Did any of them supercede a previous model? When did the 2B, 3B, 4B etc get introduced. This is what I know so far (open to correction of course): My Duo Gravis is apparently a 1960s design (mine dates from 1975 when I bought it new for £500). In the advertising they called it the 7B. I know there was a 5B (large tenor, small bass or tenor-bass), was there a 6B? Later bass trombones were called 8B and then 2107. Standing by with a note book . . . ------------------------ Keith in Bb/F/D www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 17:51:35 +0000 From: "J.c. Sherman" Subject: Re: Looking for more info on King Hi Keith, Unless they numbered them differently in the UK, the Duo Gravis IS the King 6B (dual dependant, right?). The 7B was the independent Bass. The 8B was a larger version of the 7B, with a larger Bell. The same is true of the 5B - a 4B (.547) horn with a larger bell (9 inches). 3b is .508 (I think) and they decend in size down to the 2B+ and and 2B. The 2107 is another name for the 7B - the last number indicates the old model number (2104, etc.) As far as dates go, I'm not great with them, but H.N. White became King in the 60's I believe, thought the King name had been on the instruments for quite a while - since the turn of the 20th century, I think. I know there's a couple guys on the list with much closer dates, and know for whome the first "King" instrument was named. But an "original" King would have to be quite early - earlier than 1910, I believe. J.c. Sherman > I've looked at the potted history of King on the UMI site and wonder if > anybody knows a bit more about it. > > I have a 1927 King trombone which I understand is the original King > (patented 1910). At sometime in the 1930s they brought out the King New > Proportion, any details on that would be greatly appreciated. > > What comes next. I see from one of DJ's recent postings that someone has a > 1938 Silvertone 2B. > > How do all these models fit together? Did any of them supercede a previous > model? When did the 2B, 3B, 4B etc get introduced. > > This is what I know so far (open to correction of course): My Duo Gravis is > apparently a 1960s design (mine dates from 1975 when I bought it new for > £500). In the advertising they called it the 7B. I know there was a 5B > (large tenor, small bass or tenor-bass), was there a 6B? Later bass > trombones were called 8B and then 2107. > > Standing by with a note book . . . > ------------------------ > Keith in Bb/F/D > www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:29:05 -0600 From: Eric & Candice Swanson Subject: Re: Looking for more info on King Keith Marr wrote: > This is what I know so far (open to correction of course): My Duo Gravis is > apparently a 1960s design (mine dates from 1975 when I bought it new for > £500). In the advertising they called it the 7B. Keith, J.c. is right, the Dou Gravis was the 6B. The 7B had inline valves and would not have "Dou Gravis" engraved on the bell. I did a research paper on bass trombones once back in college, and I remember the Dou Gravis as being introduced in about 1971. Eric Swanson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 18:47:05 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Midi Question >You are assuming knowledge that is not shared. I think I know what a bit >and byte are but what a 20 bit sound card is I don't know and how one goes >from a 24 bit sound card to 6 dB per bit of signal-to-noise ratio is a >mystery to me. Richard and all, I canÕt help wondering if this isnÕt like pouring gasoline on a fire. There are so many computer terms and each is defined, using other computer terms. But let me try to find a beginning, and go from there. A ÒbitÓ is a single digit, in binary logic. Binary logic uses switches to represent numbers. So a bit has two states, itÕs either on or off, one or zero. To count higher than one, one needs more than one bit. Some mathematicians, who thought they were being cute, defined four bits as a ÒnibbleÓ and eight bits as a ÒbyteÓ. With a nibble, one can count from zero to 15. With a byte, one can count from zero to 255. If you need to use negative numbers, as well, the highest order bit is used as a sign bit (and there are several ways that can work). But I bring that up because those who represent sound as quantized information use both positive and negative numbers. And that bit, which is used as a sign bit, will show up later in my attempts to explain things. At CD quality, sound is represented as 16-bit numbers, a sign bit and 15 bits for the value. But follow closely, because IÕm about to define and use a whole bunch of computer and audio terms, here. A 15-bit number will represent values from zero to (2 to the 15th power) -1, or from 0 to 32767. But in quantizing the signal, the analog voltage level, representing the signal at that moment, was converted to an approximate numerical value. At best that numerical approximation was done to an accuracy of +/- 1Ú2 bit. So you could say that a 16-bit quantized number is, at best, accurate to 1 / 65535, or 0.0000153%. And part of the signal that doesnÕt neatly fit into a number, is lost in the quantization and that missing signal shows up as an inaccuracy or, better said, quantizing noise. Essentially youÕre representing a smooth waveform as a step function. More on that later. So far that sounds pretty good, when you look at it. But what does it mean when you hear it? From my experience with sound synthesis and video graphics, it turns out that it takes about the same amount of information to generate good real-time graphics as it does to generate good- (real-time) audio. Ears may only be able to detect a single air pressure, at any one instant, but they do it with extreme accuracy. And they break down that information into detailed analyzed information, for the brain. And, unlike eyes, ears hear amplitudes on a non-linear, logarithmic scale. To deal with that, Alexander Graham Bell declared a new unit of measurement, to measure audio amplitude, the ÒBell.Ó We still use that unit of measurement, but we measure audio in tenths of a Bell, or deci-Bells (dB). And as it turns out each bit of quantized sound represents 6 dB of sound (That can be derived but IÕm not going to do that here). So a 16-bit number can represent 16 bits times 6 dB, or 96 dB of sound, at best. And below that 96 dB of sound, is guaranteed to be quantizing noise. I keep saying Òat bestÓ because there are always sources of noise, that creep in, which will degrade the sound quality. There will always be noise in electronics circuits, always. ItÕs part of the physics of the components, themselves. But by far, the majority of the noise is there because someone thought that they could make more money if they used noisier components. So letÕs now look at 20-bit vs. 24-bit audio. In theory, or should I say, at best, 20 bits and 24 bits gives you 120 dB and 144 dB of signal, above the quantizing noise. But as I said earlier, 144 dB of signal, above the noise floor is unheard of, in commercially available audio components. Even 120 dB is virtually unheard of in audio equipment. The amount of signal you hear, which is above the noise floor is measured with something called Òsignal to noise ratioÓ, or S.N. Barring other sources of noise, a 16-bit audio system will give you 96 dB of signal above the quantizing noise, or it will have a 96 dB S.N. If the other noise in the system is significant, and undoubtedly it will be, then that S.N., for the system, will be lower. While IÕm here, let me also try to explain, or confuse, another term, Òover-samplingÓ. On a clean stereo, one can hear CD quantizing noise. ItÕs actually quite objectionable. Well, maybe not on a punk CD, butÉ In an effort to smooth over that quantizing noise, manufacturers started to synthesize what a smoother looking waveform would be. They use one of several functions to try to smoothly connect the ÒdotsÓ defined by the quantized signal, so that they arenÕt putting out such a stair-step waveform. And they might represent that smoothed waveform with, say, an 18-bit digital to analog converter (drats, another term). But they also inject synthesized samples between the recorded samples, so both the perceived accuracy and the perceived sample rate go up. Anyway, ThatÕs my attempt to explain a few terms. DanP _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 19:32:47 -0000 From: Keith Marr Subject: Re: Looking for more info on King Sorry, I don't particularly want to get into a nitpicking argument about this guys (think we've had it before on the list anyway), but I do have King's own literature from the time as evidence for the 7B designation. I still have the King catalogue which I got around the time that I bought the DG, and it's listed as the Duo Gravis 1490 King 7B dual valve trombone in Bb, F and D. There's no 6B in the catalogue which is why I asked about it, I realise the 8B came later, but how much later I wonder. Is it since the UMI takeover? As for the DG being introduced in 1971: very possible. I spoke to someone on list who had one that dated from 1969 but I seem to remember being told that it was a prototype now I come to think about it. I'm really more interested in when they started with the B numbers, when each was introduced, and what came before. My 1927 King has a patent date of May 1910 on it. It's named after Thomas King who I understand was a leading player of the time and who helped with the design. Someone was selling a New Proportion on Trombone Online Classifieds recently, do they know anything about it's history? ------------------------ Keith in Bb/F/D www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric & Candice Swanson" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 6:29 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Looking for more info on King Keith Marr wrote: > This is what I know so far (open to correction of course): My Duo Gravis is > apparently a 1960s design (mine dates from 1975 when I bought it new for > £500). In the advertising they called it the 7B. Keith, J.c. is right, the Dou Gravis was the 6B. The 7B had inline valves and would not have "Dou Gravis" engraved on the bell. I did a research paper on bass trombones once back in college, and I remember the Dou Gravis as being introduced in about 1971. Eric Swanson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:33:35 -0600 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: Looking for more info on King > > I'm really more interested in when they started with the B numbers, when > each was introduced, My understanding is that the 2B was the first B designation. It stood for dual bore(2B). I don't know a year. I think the 3B, 4B, etc were named so to cash in on the success of the 2B. I think the 3B was introduced in the 50's. Of course I heard all of this on the internet, so it could be F.O.S. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:59:21 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: williams 9 --- "D.J. Kennedy" wrote: > hey kelly > here is an unusual size ---515n/515 b/f williams > 9 > not sure how is sounds w 9 in bell > most likely its niceand thin -and velvety > responsive When I was in school with Jason Jackson (NYC freelance - Vanguard Orchestra), he had one of these for a little while, so that he would have something larger than his Minick copy of a Williams 6 to play in orchestra and such. VERY unique sounding horn, hard to describe exactly how. Sort of centered but tubby. The F valve lever was actuated by the middle finger, like the second valve of most bass trombones. It really turned out to be too weird for ensemble playing, so he replaced it with some sort of Bach 42. Gabe ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:11:55 -0800 From: Daryl Burch Subject: Re: Midi Question Daniel, Thanks for unloading this info. I got a lot out of it. Hope others did too. So the bottom line on the "chicken/egg" conundrum is: The best sound=20 card/trombone/slide treatment/wine/car for you is the one that gives you=20 the optimum return (i.e.: best sound/great range or response/smoothest=20 action/oak-y flavor with supple fruit/speed) for the least investment=20 (i.e.: scratch/payolla/greenbacks/food coupons). Thanks again! Daryl Burch www.radionoise.com At 06:47 PM 1/22/2003 +0000, Daniel Pliskin wrote: >>You are assuming knowledge that is not shared. I think I know what a bit >>and byte are but what a 20 bit sound card is I don't know and how one goes >>from a 24 bit sound card to 6 dB per bit of signal-to-noise ratio is a >>mystery to me. > >Richard and all, > >I can=92t help wondering if this isn=92t like pouring gasoline on a fire. = There >are so many computer terms and each is defined, using other computer terms. >But let me try to find a beginning, and go from there. > >A =93bit=94 is a single digit, in binary logic. Binary logic uses switches= to >represent numbers. So a bit has two states, it=92s either on or off, one= or >zero. > >To count higher than one, one needs more than one bit. Some= mathematicians, >who thought they were being cute, defined four bits as a =93nibble=94 and= eight >bits as a =93byte=94. With a nibble, one can count from zero to 15. With= a >byte, one can count from zero to 255. > >If you need to use negative numbers, as well, the highest order bit is used >as a sign bit (and there are several ways that can work). But I bring that >up because those who represent sound as quantized information use both >positive and negative numbers. And that bit, which is used as a sign bit, >will show up later in my attempts to explain things. > >At CD quality, sound is represented as 16-bit numbers, a sign bit and 15 >bits for the value. But follow closely, because I=92m about to define and= use >a whole bunch of computer and audio terms, here. A 15-bit number will >represent values from zero to (2 to the 15th power) -1, or from 0 to 32767. >But in quantizing the signal, the analog voltage level, representing the >signal at that moment, was converted to an approximate numerical value. = At >best that numerical approximation was done to an accuracy of +/- =BD bit. > >So you could say that a 16-bit quantized number is, at best, accurate to 1= / >65535, or 0.0000153%. And part of the signal that doesn=92t neatly fit= into a >number, is lost in the quantization and that missing signal shows up as an >inaccuracy or, better said, quantizing noise. Essentially you=92re >representing a smooth waveform as a step function. More on that later. > >So far that sounds pretty good, when you look at it. But what does it mean >when you hear it? From my experience with sound synthesis and video >graphics, it turns out that it takes about the same amount of information= to >generate good real-time graphics as it does to generate good- (real-time) >audio. Ears may only be able to detect a single air pressure, at any one >instant, but they do it with extreme accuracy. And they break down that >information into detailed analyzed information, for the brain. > >And, unlike eyes, ears hear amplitudes on a non-linear, logarithmic scale. >To deal with that, Alexander Graham Bell declared a new unit of= measurement, >to measure audio amplitude, the =93Bell.=94 We still use that unit of >measurement, but we measure audio in tenths of a Bell, or deci-Bells (dB). > >And as it turns out each bit of quantized sound represents 6 dB of sound >(That can be derived but I=92m not going to do that here). So a 16-bit= number >can represent 16 bits times 6 dB, or 96 dB of sound, at best. And below >that 96 dB of sound, is guaranteed to be quantizing noise. > >I keep saying =93at best=94 because there are always sources of noise, that >creep in, which will degrade the sound quality. There will always be noise >in electronics circuits, always. It=92s part of the physics of the >components, themselves. But by far, the majority of the noise is there >because someone thought that they could make more money if they used= noisier >components. > >So let=92s now look at 20-bit vs. 24-bit audio. In theory, or should I= say, >at best, 20 bits and 24 bits gives you 120 dB and 144 dB of signal, above >the quantizing noise. But as I said earlier, 144 dB of signal, above the >noise floor is unheard of, in commercially available audio components. >Even 120 dB is virtually unheard of in audio equipment. > >The amount of signal you hear, which is above the noise floor is measured >with something called =93signal to noise ratio=94, or S.N. Barring other >sources of noise, a 16-bit audio system will give you 96 dB of signal above >the quantizing noise, or it will have a 96 dB S.N. If the other noise in >the system is significant, and undoubtedly it will be, then that S.N., for >the system, will be lower. > >While I=92m here, let me also try to explain, or confuse, another term, >=93over-sampling=94. On a clean stereo, one can hear CD quantizing noise. = It=92s >actually quite objectionable. Well, maybe not on a punk CD, but=85 In an >effort to smooth over that quantizing noise, manufacturers started to >synthesize what a smoother looking waveform would be. They use one of >several functions to try to smoothly connect the =93dots=94 defined by the >quantized signal, so that they aren=92t putting out such a stair-step >waveform. And they might represent that smoothed waveform with, say, an >18-bit digital to analog converter (drats, another term). But they also >inject synthesized samples between the recorded samples, so both the >perceived accuracy and the perceived sample rate go up. > >Anyway, That=92s my attempt to explain a few terms. > >DanP > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=3Dfeatures/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 13:08:52 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Boston Masterclasses I'd like to put in a couple of plugs here... --- BITEensemble@AOL.COM wrote: > The Boston Conservatory > is pleased to present a series of Brass Masterclasses... > > (Make sure to mark these dates on your calendar!) > > John Faieta, trombone > Atlantic Brass Quintet > How to prepare for your recital > Thursday, January 30, 2003 > 3:15-5:15 p.m. > Seully Hall (fourth floor) John is a close friend of mine, and a guy I admire very much. He is a player who works extremely hard, in part because he didn't come at the trombone with boatloads of talent. He has learned how to play at a very high level by examining absolutely everything about what it takes to do it from soup to nuts, physically, mentally, etc. That experience is part of what makes him a great educator. He's also very straightforward. Catch his class if you can. > Matt Guilford, bass trombone > Bass Trombone, National Symphony > Thursday, March 27, 2003 > 3:15-5:15 p.m. > Seully Hall (fourth floor) I studied with Matt for a few months, and I can't say enough good things about him. Great player who isn't talked about that much. Also a really nice guy. > > All sessions are free and open to the public. Can't beat that with a stick. The Boston Conservatory brass department has been working really hard to provide a quality program for their students, and my perception is that it is now a really good place to go to school. My understanding is that this was not always the case. The trombone students there are getting better and better all the time, and are now quite competitive with the students at BU and NEC. I'm always happy to play with Wes, who graduated from there and posted this message. The trombone teachers are Larry Isaacson, who was a really great player before stopping due to focal dystonia, and John Faieta, above. Gabe ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:43:38 -0600 From: Eric & Candice Swanson Subject: Re: Looking for more info on King Keith Marr wrote: > .........I do have > King's own literature from the time as evidence for the 7B designation. I > still have the King catalogue which I got around the time that I bought the > DG, and it's listed as the Duo Gravis 1490 King 7B dual valve trombone in > Bb, F and D. Interesting. My catalogs don't go back that far, just to 1977. Sorry to questions your facts. > There's no 6B in the catalogue which is why I asked about it, I realise the > 8B came later, but how much later I wonder. Is it since the UMI takeover? I have 1980 catalogs listing the Dou Gravis, 7B, and 8B. This is before UMI. I think that's about the year the 7B and 8B came out, give or take a year or two. > As > for the DG being introduced in 1971: very possible. I spoke to someone on > list who had one that dated from 1969 but I seem to remember being told that > it was a prototype now I come to think about it. I checked my source, and it was actually 1970. According to Musical Trades magazine May 1970, the DG was a new product. I'm sure it could have easily come out in 1969 and it took them a few months to notice. Eric > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 18:20:31 -0600 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Re: Looking for more info on King ads for 3b from 1956 the conn 6h had gone to an 8 in bell i beleive this might be a design to compete with the 6h as the connstellation first model was changed later from brass bell to ni plated ---i have a 1960 -sym bore wide throat 8 in bell --wide tuning slide but no model ---later this was the 5b --- the b --great idea - kinda like ford model t model a etc ---public easily understands -- bach 36 is a trombone 37 is a trumpet --model 38 ????????????who knows 2b+ ez to understand -- doug elliots system in 100s of inch --great ideas the inner slides of early 3b --well canges happened the early 2b have -soldered on stockings on one side york -bach 16 most olds ---blessing artist special from 1940 and before ---duo bore --burkle 39 32h --- -----i have a 1946 conn6h --no cork barrels thicker 7 1/2 bell as combos came in the need for blastissimo bones changed but small bells still have a following holton 63 ---a larger duo bore === 500/509 wow but small bell ----------- the modern version of the liberty is the jiggs horn si zentner ---and urbie both had a package of options on their 2bs new proportion and other kings had duo bore but the 2b offered slide lock and threaded attachment on stock horns by then chromed inners were a major advancement slight differences in the tuning slide a very late np alongside an early 2b ---almost identical king had offered crystal steel outers [nickle sil [white brass actually] in the teens --- when fa reynolds left king to form fa reynolds --he took the engraver thus the change in engraving patterns on king horns noted especially on silvertones --- i think that engraver designed the olds recording pattern it has several different patterns td was playing conns ==something happened and king snapped him up just like edwards =rath ----umi -yama selmer --artists -- i guess it really helps moral in the factories too -- --george roberts ---wow ===and doug yeo but these bits of metal are nothing until you add talent and dedication --- Jeff Albert wrote: > > > > I'm really more interested in when they started with the B numbers, > when > > each was introduced, > > My understanding is that the 2B was the first B designation. It stood > for dual bore(2B). I don't know a year. I think the 3B, 4B, etc were > named so to cash in on the success of the 2B. I think the 3B was > introduced in the 50's. Of course I heard all of this on the internet, > so it could be F.O.S. > > Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:48:54 -0000 From: Keith Marr Subject: Re: Looking for more info on King Fascinating how these companies link together. These days the Reynolds stands alongside the Duo Gravis (for me anyway) as an discontinued bass that still cuts it in big band. So to find that Reynolds worked for King is most enlightening. Bell engraving styles -- there's a whole thread in itself. ------------------------ Keith in Bb/F/D www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: D.J. Kennedy > when fa reynolds left king to form fa reynolds --he took the engraver > thus the change in engraving patterns on king horns > noted especially on silvertones --- > i think that engraver designed the olds recording pattern > it has several different patterns ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 19:52:03 -0600 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Re: Looking for more info on King yes indeed --fa reynolds made great bass trombones for the us service bands 562/562 single trigger spring loaded -no slide lock big bell look almost like conn 72h -very pretty engraving sil plated gold wash inner bell sterling bell 500s and similiar trumpets //cornets ----wow 2 toning gold fabulous !!!!!!!!!!!!! Keith Marr wrote: > Fascinating how these companies link together. These days the Reynolds > stands alongside the Duo Gravis (for me anyway) as an discontinued bass that > still cuts it in big band. So to find that Reynolds worked for King is most > enlightening. > > Bell engraving styles -- there's a whole thread in itself. > ------------------------ > Keith in Bb/F/D > www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: D.J. Kennedy > > > when fa reynolds left king to form fa reynolds --he took the > engraver > > thus the change in engraving patterns on king horns > > noted especially on silvertones --- > > i think that engraver designed the olds recording pattern > > it has several different patterns ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 18:52:24 -0800 From: emrose79@PACBELL.NET Subject: Re: Looking for more info on King I can't resist this one.. The prototype for the Duo Gravis came out in late 1968. I bought mine in 1969, so I know it was before 1971. Ed Eric & Candice Swanson wrote: > > Keith Marr wrote: > > > This is what I know so far (open to correction of course): My Duo Gravis is > > apparently a 1960s design (mine dates from 1975 when I bought it new for > > £500). In the advertising they called it the 7B. > > Keith, > > J.c. is right, the Dou Gravis was the 6B. The 7B had inline valves and would > not have "Dou Gravis" engraved on the bell. I did a research paper on bass > trombones once back in college, and I remember the Dou Gravis as being > introduced in about 1971. > > Eric Swanson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 19:02:46 -0800 From: emrose79@PACBELL.NET Subject: Re: Looking for more info on King Ok...for what it's worth...the prototype for the 8B came out in 1981... I was told at the time (1969...that was me you talked to, Keith) that the DG proto was making the rounds for about a year, and that they were now selling the 10 prototypes (mine was one of them). In 1970, another High School had purchased one (not a proto), so I would assume that they (the DGs) were out by 1970. The original DGs were Bb/F/Eb, but I was offered the D crook a couple of years later..in fact I was able to get a C crook, too!). As for the 8B, the original owner of my 8B told me that he went to the factory in 1981 to get his (prototype 8B). Ed Keith Marr wrote: > > Sorry, I don't particularly want to get into a nitpicking argument about > this guys (think we've had it before on the list anyway), but I do have > King's own literature from the time as evidence for the 7B designation. I > still have the King catalogue which I got around the time that I bought the > DG, and it's listed as the Duo Gravis 1490 King 7B dual valve trombone in > Bb, F and D. > > There's no 6B in the catalogue which is why I asked about it, I realise the > 8B came later, but how much later I wonder. Is it since the UMI takeover? As > for the DG being introduced in 1971: very possible. I spoke to someone on > list who had one that dated from 1969 but I seem to remember being told that > it was a prototype now I come to think about it. > > I'm really more interested in when they started with the B numbers, when > each was introduced, and what came before. My 1927 King has a patent date of > May 1910 on it. It's named after Thomas King who I understand was a leading > player of the time and who helped with the design. Someone was selling a New > Proportion on Trombone Online Classifieds recently, do they know anything > about it's history? > ------------------------ > Keith in Bb/F/D > www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Eric & Candice Swanson" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 6:29 PM > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Looking for more info on King > > Keith Marr wrote: > > > This is what I know so far (open to correction of course): My Duo Gravis > is > > apparently a 1960s design (mine dates from 1975 when I bought it new for > > £500). In the advertising they called it the 7B. > > Keith, > > J.c. is right, the Dou Gravis was the 6B. The 7B had inline valves and > would > not have "Dou Gravis" engraved on the bell. I did a research paper on bass > trombones once back in college, and I remember the Dou Gravis as being > introduced in about 1971. > > Eric Swanson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:11:37 -0600 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: selmer trombone b/f////attn la bone players oh thats great --a big stash of nos selmer paris bones !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!in la !! maybe make a little buzz about them ---very cool french fries what other models etc --largo straight largo b//f etc-----wow a time capsule selection of french trombone discovered in ---wine celler selmer pulled the plug on the bones //trumpets --and concentrated on sax and clari - 1980 ==that is wild most that turn up are from 60-64 and a few from 50s - largos are very bright -due to the thinner bells ok for jazz but no no for legit -current taste is for dark and dull the bolero are popular with some east coast guys if you have some kind of list let me know and i will try to see if there is any interest and post something on the trombone list steve ferguson is out there -he deals in a lot of bones 80s --hum -earlier ones have all kinds of engraving and stamps exactly like the saxes ----- prices are down on bones at the moment except the very rare stuff but if there is total war --the scrap value will go up ----- how are the horns --anybody trying them out - you are in la -i maybe can send in a bone player or two if i put out the word --two guys come to mind ok hey dont mess around blow them out ---once you hear the noise they make you will be restocking guitars for sure they might be real dogs ---bark bark ?????????? Rob Marks wrote: > I got to keep pushin. I've got a bunch of Selmers in the closit,Big ones, > little ones,with triggers,no triggers all new about 1980 vintage. > good luck DJ > Rob > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "D.J. Kennedy" > To: "Rob Marks" > Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 7:41 PM > Subject: Re: selmer trombone b/f > > > good luck you didnt even get any bids > > later > > when you get tired of blowing the dust off of it > > and want to sell it to reinvest in > > something useful let me know !!! > > i will let my prospect know > > i probably have more selmer paris trombones than anybody on the planet > > the bolero and k modified are the hottest movers -and that isnt too fast > > for a grand most players will get a used sterling bell 3b/f > > as its the same size bore as the 72 --- > > or an olds recording for around 600 -or a bach 36 - > > ------------------------------------------------- > > thanks for checking out the slide width etc --its a good horn > > but that wierd valve is a turn off ---its not a horn kids are gonna be > > interested ineither > > hard sell -very hard sell at 1k > > take care - > > dj > > i just sold a trombone for 3500 -they are out there > > > > > > > > Rob Marks wrote: > > > > > $1000.00 Takes it home > > > Thanks > > > Rob Marks > > > Musicians'supply shop Inc. > > > 11732 W.Pico Blvd. > > > Los Angeles Calif.90064 > > > 310-478-7836 > > > {robmarks@earthlink.net} > > > > > > rthlink.net > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "D.J. Kennedy" > > > To: "Rob Marks" ; "kelkelkel" > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 6:52 PM > > > Subject: Re: selmer trombone b/f > > > > > > > cool --king 3b is about 3.25 so its a hair or two wider but not > > > monster > > > > some players have fat necks etc -- > > > > ----maybe my buddy kelly will want it - > > > > your buy now for 2grand ---cheep for a mark 6 tenor sax -- > > > > too bad its a trombone > > > > any idea of how much you need for it ???? > > > > > > > > > > > > Rob Marks wrote: > > > > > > > > > 3.5 inches > > > > > Thanks > > > > > Rob Marks > > > > > Musicians Supply Shop > > > > > 11732 W. Pico Blvd. > > > > > W. Los Angeles Calif.90064 > > > > > 310-478-7836 > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "D.J. Kennedy" > > > > > To: "Rob Marks" ; "kelkelkel" > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 5:47 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: selmer trombone b/f > > > > > > > > > > > ok --what i am > > > > > > wondering is how wide the slide is middle of hole where > > > mouthpiece > > > > > goes > > > > > > to middle of hole of tube where slide fits on bell > > > > > > i have 2 selmer boleros > > > > > > 3 selmer model 23 specials > > > > > > a selmer model 16 > > > > > > and a k modified model 23 special ----changes in braces and > wider > > > > > slide > > > > > > than 23 > > > > > > as well as a largo /with f arrachment > > > > > > having that inside linkage like the model you have > > > > > > most trombones except a few german ones have the linkage > to > > > rotor > > > > > axle > > > > > > on the outside > > > > > > --there was a similiar horn to yours on ebay last year sold > > > from > > > > > > australia > > > > > > being sold by a girl who switched to a bach ---which was a mistake > > > > > > because she really liked it i think a japanese buyer got it > maybe > > > > > around > > > > > > 4-500 > > > > > > -the largo has an extremely wide slide > > > > > > --------- > > > > > > i also have a 1950s martin with a very narrow slide and trigger > > > > > > it is a poor design -face is squished next to tubing > > > > > > --- > > > > > > my bone buddy is looking for a horn for quartet -and solo > > > > > > so it doesnt need to be really big -- > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > the largo b/f may have had a cover --like the 72 > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > there isnt a tremendous demand for the selmer paris > trombones --like > > > > > saxes or > > > > > > trumpets > > > > > > boleros usually go for 400 or under > > > > > > 23specials 300 or less[minty] and my pal bruce picked up a mint > 23 > > > k > > > > > modified > > > > > > last month off ebay for 220 shipped -which is a steal for > ure --- > > > > > > ----- > > > > > > these horns are usually extremely well made but selmer dropped > them > > > all > > > > > > in spite of efforts to market them -and concentrated in pushing > > > bach > > > > > > which up to 1963 had made only 8000 trombones > > > > > > ------------ > > > > > > i believe the model 72 is probably a great horn --maybe a few > > > quirks > > > > > > the looks of the plastic linkage cover --black wouldve been > > > better > > > > > color > > > > > > maybe it keeps your beard from getting caught > > > > > > ======= > > > > > > thanks for your attention > > > > > > dj kennedy > > > > > > -------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rob Marks wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > > i don't get what you mean,center to center of tubes? > > > > > > > Rob Marks > > > > > > > Musicians Supply Shop > > > > > > > 11732 W. Pico Blvd. > > > > > > > W. Los Angeles Calif.90064 > > > > > > > 310-478-7836 > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 3:35 PM > > > > > > > Subject: selmer trombone b/f > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To member: robmarks@earthlink.net > > > > > > > > From member: djpens@midwest.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i have a bone buddy who might be interested i this horn > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > questions are how wide is the slide -center to center of > > > > > tubes --- > > > > > > > > and of course that ugly linkage cover > > > > > > > > has got to go > > > > > > > > thanks > > > > > > > > dj kennedy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------- > > > > > > > > This email was sent by an eBay member via eBay's email > forwarding > > > > > system. > > > > > > > > If you reply to the email, your response will go directly to > the > > > > > member > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > not through eBay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > eBay does not tolerate spam (i.e., unsolicited commercial > email) > > > and > > > > > is > > > > > > > > taking steps to protect members from this abuse. In addition, > > > > > > > solicitations > > > > > > > > to buy or sell items outside of eBay violate eBay rules and > are > > > not > > > > > > > covered > > > > > > > > by services that protect members such as feedback, insurance, > > > escrow, > > > > > and > > > > > > > > dispute resolution. If this is an offer to buy/sell items > outside > > > of > > > > > eBay, > > > > > > > > please do not participate. Enter the following link into your > > > browser > > > > > to > > > > > > > learn more. Link: > http://pages.ebay.com/help/new/stopping_spam.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:34:17 -0500 From: Alan Partis Subject: music minus one I'm seeking recommendations. I just received two of the Schwartz/Bordogni books with CD accompaniment today and I'm very amazed. All these years I've been working with the Rochut exercises and now I can do them with accompaniment and actually make music out of them! Wonderful (except for the glaring light it throws on some of my intonation problems, but we'll let that pass for the moment). I would like some recommendations on other similar practice/music minus one CDs in the same genre -- I'm not ready to start working on my jazz improv yet. Thanks. __________________________________________________ alan partis, amateur bonehead louisville, ky ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:04:53 -0600 From: Bill Dinwiddie Subject: Fw: [TBN-L] music minus one Alan, I would be interested in buying this Rochut book/CD set. Can you tell me a little more about them? Where to buy? Price? How many exercises are on the CD? Are all three books available? Like you, I have always played these exercises a cappela, but the idea of accompaniment seems nice. Thanks. Bill Dinwiddie bill752d@attbi.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Partis" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 10:34 PM Subject: [TBN-L] music minus one > I'm seeking recommendations. I just received two of the Schwartz/Bordogni books with CD accompaniment today and I'm very amazed. All these years I've been working with the Rochut exercises and now I can do them with accompaniment and actually make music out of them! Wonderful (except for the glaring light it throws on some of my intonation problems, but we'll let that pass for the moment). > > I would like some recommendations on other similar practice/music minus one CDs in the same genre -- I'm not ready to start working on my jazz improv yet. > > Thanks. > > > __________________________________________________ > alan partis, amateur bonehead > louisville, ky > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:31:49 -0600 From: Scott Moore Subject: Dallas Brass The Dallas Brass will be in concert this Friday at 7:30 at Gustavus Adolphus College in Saint Peter, Minnesota. There will also be a master class at 2:00. Both events will take place in the Jussi Bjšrling Recital Hall. Tickets are available at the door. When: Jan 24, 2003 7:30 PM - 9:00 PM Where: Bjorling Recital Hall Audience: General Public Ticket Required Cost: $10 adults/$7 seniors & Gustavus faculty & staff/$5 stud Tickets: tickets are available at the Gustavus Ticket Office (507) 933-7590 Contact: Fine Arts Phone: 507-933-7363 Since its founding in 1983, by Michael Levine, the Dallas Brass has become one of America's foremost musical ensembles. The group has established a unique blend of traditional brass instruments with a full complement of drums and percussion, which creates a performing entity of extraordinary range and musical challenges. The Dallas Brass repertoire includes classical masterpieces, Dixieland, swing, Broadway, Hollywood and patriotic music. In addition to their solo engagements, the Dallas Brass also appears with symphony orchestras nationwide. Symphonic credits include the Cincinnati Pops, New York Pops, and the Philly Pops. The Dallas Brass has performed at Carnegie Hall, the John F. Kennedy Center in Washington D.C., and has toured overseas to Europe and the Far East. The ensemble has a strong dedication to working with young musicians, and has developed an extensive "Music in the Schools" project. The Dallas Brass has released five recordings: "Debut," "Dallas Brass II," "A Merry Christmas with Brass," "Windborne," and "Nutcracker," some of which will be for sale following the concert. Sponsored By: Gustavus Office of Fine Arts Programs D. Scott Moore, Bass Trombone Music Department Gustavus Adolphus College St. Peter, MN 56082 phone: 507-933-6260 email: down8ve@hickorytech.net http://www.gustavus.edu/~smoore ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 00:03:34 -0600 From: Corliss Subject: Re: Midi Question Dan, thanks for your recent treatise. I learned much. For those interested in prices I just checked the Creative web site and found out that their 24 bit cards are called Audigy and they seem to be selling at about the same price that the earlier Live cards sold for. They have three models that sell for $100, $129 and $200. The Live their selling now goes for $70. Richard Corliss ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 11:25 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Midi Question > >"Band in a Box 12" is definitely the more cost conscious way to go @ $88. > > >If you do go the more expensive rout, I also _strongly_ recommend you drop > >another hundred or so on a decent 24-bit soundcard. > > >... > > I was studying why sound synthesizers don't sound real, when they threw me > out of college with a degree in electrical engineering. It wasn't quite > like that, but kinda. > > But what I had basically come up with was that if a synthesizer plays the > same note twice and it sounds the same, your ear will know that it's not > real. That goes for dinky synthesizers as well as mega-samplers. > > There's no doubt that audio electronics noticeably improves every year. So > I have mixed feelings about the advantages of a 24-bit sound card. Yes it > might be far better than the 20-bit sound cards of a couple of years ago, > but you definitely won't be getting close to the promise of 144 dB of sound > quality. > > In contrast, no matter how bad a musician is, their signal to noise ratio is > infinite. > > DanP > > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months > http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 21 Jan 2003 to 22 Jan 2003 (#2003-22) ****************************************************************